We are denied access to nature

[jo_k_er_man]

Originally Posted by walsh

How much access are we allowed to nature in modern life?

Water falls from the sky
The earth we walk on is the only one we have
The air we breathe there is no other

Walk around your town. How much clean water can you find without paying for it? What kind of land are we allowed on freely? A pavement, a small public park. Anywhere else and we are arrested or evicted or even injured by the owner. The fact is, this is because none of it is considered nature. Only the air is regarded as part of our natural environment and is a 'right', but how long will it be before even AIR is commodified?

Well when you tell me where you can find clean water without having to filter it first.. then let us all know.. people all around the world im sure are searching for water they don't have to at least boil.. that's why we pay for it.. because we don't want to treat the 1000s of gallons of water we use personally a year

In all honestly though.. say i evade taxes and don't pay them.. meaning my water all was free.. there are quite a few public well pumps here in town at the different city parks..

Well since property rights allow people to not allow others onto their land.. it can be difficult.. I am lucky that I live in an area that has over 1,000,000 acres of state forest... there is a lot of wandering that can be done

Maybe you should change where you live if you don't like the area? You're like a slave complaining about the conditions of the plantation... but its 2012 and you've been long able to leave

[walsh]

Originally Posted by jo_k_er_man

Well when you tell me where you can find clean water without having to filter it first.. then let us all know.. people all around the world im sure are searching for water they don't have to at least boil.. that's why we pay for it.. because we don't want to treat the 1000s of gallons of water we use personally a year

In all honestly though.. say i evade taxes and don't pay them.. meaning my water all was free.. there are quite a few public well pumps here in town at the different city parks..

Well since property rights allow people to not allow others onto their land.. it can be difficult.. I am lucky that I live in an area that has over 1,000,000 acres of state forest... there is a lot of wandering that can be done

Maybe you should change where you live if you don't like the area? You're like a slave complaining about the conditions of the plantation... but its 2012 and you've been long able to leave

I'm not complaining, just pointing out a fact. Don't bring me into it. The fact that people don't recognize even property rights for what they are - usurpation of the natural for the private - is disturbing. Pick an apple off a tree to eat and you haven't done a perfectly natural thing but committed a crime. What is natural is cordoned off so that living outside this society is impossible. That's one way of achieving societal growth because we have no choice but to live within it and add to it.

Besides, where I live you can't camp in national parks without notifying the authorities, paying a fee per night and leaving when your time is up.

[Hamburglar0]

Originally Posted by walsh

I'm not complaining, just pointing out a fact. Don't bring me into it. The fact that people don't recognize even property rights for what they are - usurpation of the natural for the private - is disturbing. Pick an apple off a tree to eat and you haven't done a perfectly natural thing but committed a crime. What is natural is cordoned off so that living outside this society is impossible. That's one way of achieving societal growth because we have no choice but to live within it and add to it.

Besides, where I live you can't camp in national parks without notifying the authorities, paying a fee per night and leaving when your time is up.

So essentially what you're proposing is a state of anarchy, is it not? Without property rights, everyone has the freedom to occupy any piece of land, so why would I bother to build my own house? I'll just set up shop at someone else's mansion, because they have no right to give me the boot.

[ForgetThisEmail]

Yes the earth is crowded with too many people. This has caused this issue. Between me and my two ex's we produced 2 children so we haven't reproduced ourselves. I have started recycling centers in the 70's and have built green homes and have conserved hundreds of acres and planted thousands of trees so i feel good about our earth and pray others might do the same. The question you ask should be WHAT AM I DOING TO DESERVE NATURE AND TO MAKE NATURE MORE ABUNDANT? Then you can feel the right to have more of it. We all can't just consume nature or it will be gone. I happen to have found a 6 acre parcel with an old house built in 1820 that was abandoned and i bought it and rebuilt it but it still has no indoor plumbing. However, i can drink the water from my creek and stream and well and rainwater too. I am in central Pa with many state gamelands around me. I compost my food and poo and i have cleaned up invasive species and planted trees and berries and use lots of mulch to slow erosion and i have low taxes and yes my house looks old and run down but its the closet thing to living naturally that i could find.

I do understand when people are mad that there is little free nature around them. I know when i was back in Phila i helped to plant trees in the city with university green and that helped to bring shade to many poor people who barely get to see trees on their streets.

Nature in this time is what we make it and it is not just wild and free like it was for the native americans which is a shame. I pray we all go back to a simplier way of life and steer clear from a life of consumerism and waste.

be blessed and give back to mother earth

[walsh]

Originally Posted by Hamburglar0

So essentially what you're proposing is a state of anarchy, is it not? Without property rights, everyone has the freedom to occupy any piece of land, so why would I bother to build my own house? I'll just set up shop at someone else's mansion, because they have no right to give me the boot.

Sigh. I'm not proposing anything. Why do people want to jump to conclusions all the time?

You need property rights because they protect what you have and make you feel safe. You and everyone else are in constant fear of what you have being taken away from you, so you need the protection.

[walsh]

This is another example of what I'm talking about: http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/s...hreadid=454051

[MamaPeace]

Originally Posted by ROLLINGALONG

if you choose to be in a city or town over living in a tree in northern manitoba...where i am sure there is free air and water...than isnt it you that is causing the problem that you feel you have?

True, but it isn't always possible to just up and leave to somewhere more natural. I'd love to leave the city and live a natural lifestyle but I just don't have the means too...

[MamaPeace]

What many don't consider though is that we are actually nature really.. We have just modernised and cut ourselves off from our true essence

[jo_k_er_man]

Originally Posted by walsh

I'm not complaining, just pointing out a fact. Don't bring me into it. The fact that people don't recognize even property rights for what they are - usurpation of the natural for the private - is disturbing. Pick an apple off a tree to eat and you haven't done a perfectly natural thing but committed a crime. What is natural is cordoned off so that living outside this society is impossible. That's one way of achieving societal growth because we have no choice but to live within it and add to it.

Besides, where I live you can't camp in national parks without notifying the authorities, paying a fee per night and leaving when your time is up.

Pick an apple out of the bin at a grocery store and get a ticket for it as well.. because either way it's someone else's property..

Fee's in national parks are there for good reason.. it's to pay for the staff that helps everyone out in enjoying their stay in the park.. whether it's through facilities.. making sure campsites have all the proper items and are clean.. trails being up kept so that they can be used yet have minimal impact on the natural aspect of the land.. the list goes on and on..

Land is preserved through private land rights.. otherwise everything today would be a waste land.. there would be mines everywhere and oil rigs everywhere else there aren't mines... trees would be chopped down.. we'd be one giant Easter Island.. be lucky that there are plenty of people out there that own land and don't allow big corporation come and plow and rape the land.. be glad that they are protected by land rights

[darkforest]

Originally Posted by MamaPeace

What many don't consider though is that we are actually nature really.. We have just modernised and cut ourselves off from our true essence

Most people don't have a clue that they're a part of nature too.