messianic jews

[sunkissedgreenfarie]

Are any of you guys messianic jews...i've been studying judaism alot lately and i love it but i think i still believe that jesus is the christ so i'm just wondering your guys oppions on the matter.

[the dauer]

The Jewish population at large does not consider Messianic Jews as Jewish. They are funded by fundamentalist Christian organizations. Basically, it was an attempt at making Jesus more palatable to Jews because some Christians believe that 1 Jewish convert is worth 50 non-Jewish converts. They believe that all Jews must believe in Jesus before the second coming. And so they go to great lengths to missionize to the Jews. This is one such length.

As far as Jesus being "the christ," there are a number of very clear measures of whether the messiah has come, such as world peace. Without this, we know he hasn't come. Also, the emphasis in Judaism is not on the messiah but on the age that follows his coming. Jews would never even think of worshipping the real messiah. He'll just be a person like anyone else.

I hope this answers some of your questions.

Ben

Edit: Sorry if I sounded a little harsh. I was just trying to be to-the-point.

[Lizz]

I, too, have studied Judaism alot, over a year or so.


Anyway, I was wondering what the difference between a "messianic jew" and a regular christian was? I don't see a huge difference, but I could be wrong.

[dreadyjew]

The difference between a Messianic Jew and a Christian is that a Christian makes the task of converting Jews a part-time affair, while Messianic Jews make it their primary motivation. Jews for Jesus was the first Messianic Jewish organization, and they were founded specifically with the intention of converting Jews. Since then, many break-off groups have been founded, and have tried to hide the fact that their primary goal is to convert Jews... All the same...

I can't even express to you how important it is to check out www.jewsforjudaism.org. It's the website of the organization Jews for Judaism, a counter-missionary/counter-cult organization founded as a response to Jews for Jesus. I know some of the folks who work for Jews for Judaism, and they do a thankless job with little funding, and help prevent many Jews from being taken by these missionary/cult organizations.

To quote from one of their brochures:

"Jews for Jesus is one of hundreds of evangelical Christian missionary organizations that spend millions of dollars each year to convert Jews. Despite any trappings of Jewish tradition utilized to mislead and entice... Their theology is 100% Christian. In fact, many of their leaders aren't Jewish. Both Jewish and Christian groups have denounced their tactics. In the event that you are confused or confronted by these missionaries, the following Q&A is provided to help you and your children."

To read the rest, see the brochure in PDF format at http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/brochures/7AnswerstoJewsforJesus.pdf

There is no question, and no doubt... Messianic Judaism is in no way, shape, or form a legitimate "Judaism." There are no legitimate Judaisms that would accept Messianic Judaism as such. It is entirely a Christian movement, founded by Christians, primarily run by Christians, that is built on lies and deception, and is tasked with converting as many Jews to a hidden form of Christianity as they can.

Whatever you do, stay away from these folks! They are bad news!!!

b'Shalom.

[charredacacia]

jews for jesus is like vegans for cheeseburgers

[dreadyjew]

jews for jesus is like vegans for cheeseburgers
I must say, I've never heard it said better!

b'Shalom.

[feministhippy]

It seriously pisses me off that people want to trick people into joining their religion by disguising it as and thus mocking someone's else's religion. :mad:

[Warrior]

The Jewish population at large does not consider Messianic Jews as Jewish. They are funded by fundamentalist Christian organizations. Basically, it was an attempt at making Jesus more palatable to Jews because some Christians believe that 1 Jewish convert is worth 50 non-Jewish converts. They believe that all Jews must believe in Jesus before the second coming. And so they go to great lengths to missionize to the Jews. This is one such length.

As far as Jesus being "the christ," there are a number of very clear measures of whether the messiah has come, such as world peace. Without this, we know he hasn't come. Also, the emphasis in Judaism is not on the messiah but on the age that follows his coming. Jews would never even think of worshipping the real messiah. He'll just be a person like anyone else.

I hope this answers some of your questions.

Ben

Edit: Sorry if I sounded a little harsh. I was just trying to be to-the-point.I couldn't get past this CRAP before I had to post. This especially angers me: "Christians believe that 1 Jewish convert is worth 50 non-Jewish converts." Where in your sick perverted religion did you hear that one? True Christians know that jews are the children of Satan, as Jesus said:
JESUS CHRIST, speaking to the Jews in the Gospel of St. John, VIII:44
"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lust of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is not truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar and the father of it. - then answered the Jews - "

Your religion teaches that jews have two souls (the "Adam", or "man" soul and the "animal soul"), and Gentiles only one, and that the soul of the Gentile is the "animal soul" and unable to attain any importance in the eyes of God. Therefore when the Gentile dies, he ceases to exist. The Talmud is full of hate speech against anyone who is not jew, (aka Gentiles), against Jesus (he was a lier, a magician, and is burning - or boiling - in a sea of excrement!), the Virgin Mary (she was a harlot, a whore).

I caution any Gentile who is studying or is curious about judaism to do all you can to locate and read their Talmud before you belive the lies in the little books they allow you to read or "study", for the core of judaism is found there and not in pamplets.

States dreadyjew:"Whatever you do, stay away from these folks! They are bad news!!!"
Yes, stay away from these folks!!!!

[the dauer]

I couldn't get past this CRAP before I had to post. This especially angers me: "Christians believe that 1 Jewish convert is worth 50 non-Jewish converts." Where in your sick perverted religion did you hear that one? True Christians know that jews are the children of Satan, as Jesus said:
JESUS CHRIST, speaking to the Jews in the Gospel of St. John, VIII:44
"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lust of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is not truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar and the father of it. - then answered the Jews - "

Your religion teaches that jews have two souls (the "Adam", or "man" soul and the "animal soul"), and Gentiles only one, and that the soul of the Gentile is the "animal soul" and unable to attain any importance in the eyes of God. Therefore when the Gentile dies, he ceases to exist. The Talmud is full of hate speech against anyone who is not jew, (aka Gentiles), against Jesus (he was a lier, a magician, and is burning - or boiling - in a sea of excrement!), the Virgin Mary (she was a harlot, a whore).

I caution any Gentile who is studying or is curious about judaism to do all you can to locate and read their Talmud before you belive the lies in the little books they allow you to read or "study", for the core of judaism is found there and not in pamplets.

States dreadyjew:"Whatever you do, stay away from these folks! They are bad news!!!"
Yes, stay away from these folks!!!!

I did not say Christians. I said some Christians. And if you did not know that then you are misinformed.This is the reason that Jews for Jesus exists. It is a fundamentalist Christian movement because some Christians believe that they must convert the Jews, and they specifically target Jews.

And then after that statement you just spout misinformed hate. Isn't that statement typical related to the Christian concept of Original Sin? Wasn't Jesus typically talking to Jews as he was a Jew in a Jewish society?

And everyone is b'nai adam, children of Adam, all of humanity. I have no idea where you got that last fact. On the contrary, Judaism does not condemn anybody. Jews just have many more laws to follow. Non-Jews potentially have 7. There is no such suggestion that a non-Jew ceases to exist. Rather, Judaism is concerned with Jews. It is a religion for Jews. And it speaks about what happens for them.

As far as what you may have read about the Talmud, this is an example of one misquote:

CLAIM (32a)
Also in footnote #2 to Shabbath 104b it is stated that in the "uncensored" text of the Talmud it is written that Jesus mother, "Miriam the hairdresser," had sex with many men.

RESPONSE
No such text exists in the standard Talmuds. There is reference to a certain Ben Stada who according to R. Eliezer brought knowledge of witchcraft out of Egypt by making marks on his body. The other sages dismissed Ben Stada as a fool. In some versions of the Talmud there is
statement to the effect that this person's mother (Miriam Magdala) was not faithful to her husband. Some commentators specifically point out for identification purposes that this person was executed in Lod and is not
identifiable with anyone mentioned in Christian traditions. The Talmud also notes that the name Miriam Magdala was a very common one.


http://groups.msn.com/Mishpocha/thetalmudpart3.msnw

This website most likely covers all of the slander you have ever heard.

I recommend before you begin slandering others, that you seriously investigate what they are saying, and not what others are saying about them.

--Ben

Edit: Even more poignant:

Gloats over Christ Dying Young A passage from Sanhedrin 106 gloats over the early age at which Jesus died: "Hast thou heard how old Balaam (Jesus) was?-He replied: It is not actually stated but since it is written, Bloody and deceitful men shall not live out half their days it follows that he was thirty-three or thirty-four years old."

RESPONSE (1)
Notice the "Jesus" in parentheses? The text does not say "Jesus". It says "Balaam". How to trump up a charge of blasphemy, in one easy lesson.


RESPONSE (2)
The Talmud states that the wicked Bilaam (Numbers 23:24) died after living only half his allotted time span, in accordance with the statement in Psalms 55:24, that the wicked do not survive half their allotted life span. The commentary of Rashi makes it clear that the reference is to the biblical Bilaam.

[Warrior]

the dauer: Thank you for responding to me. However you gave me no more than I expected from a person who is trained to deceive the Gentiles. Firstly, you gave me a jewish site that I am sure is constucted to misinform; Secondly, you ignored the assertions of my post concerning the 50/1 ratio, and Jesus' statement that jews are the children of the devil.
Now, I did not come here to slander you, I came only to show that those who are seriously considering following the teachings of Judaism that they are headed down a path that is contridictory to God.
If the site you posted was not to misinform, then why weren't the pages of the Talmud scanned into the response instead of some vauge reply given as the answer?
How do you explain away this hatred:

"Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on trial."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, 25 March, 2001 quoted in BBC News Online

Jewish plan for America
"We must realize that our party's most powerful weapon is racial tensions. By propounding into the consciousness of the dark races that for centuries they have been oppressed by whites, we can mold them to the program of the Communist Party. In America we will aim for subtle victory. While inflaming the Negro minority against the whites, we will endeavor to instill in the whites a guilt complex for their exploitation of the Negros. We will aid the Negroes to rise in prominence in every walk of life, in the professions and in the world of sports and entertainment. With this prestige, the Negro will be able to intermarry with the whites and begin a process which will deliver America to our cause."
Israel Cohen, A Racial Program for the Twentieth Century, 1912. Also in the Congressional Record, Vol. 103, p. 8559, June 7, 1957

"[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the 'Beasts,"' New Statesman, June 25, 1982.

"This country exists as the fulfillment of a promise made by God Himself. It would be ridiculous to ask it to account for its legitimacy."
-- Golda Meir, Le Monde, 15 October 1971

"There is no such thing as a Palestinian people... It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn't exist."
-- Golda Meir, statement to The Sunday Times, 15 June, 1969.

"Jewish blood and a goy's [gentile's] blood are not the same."
Israeli Rabbi Yitzhak Ginsburg, Inferring that killing isn't murder if the
victim is Gentile. Jerusalem Post, June 19,1989.

"Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it."
-- Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, October 3, 2001, to Shimon Peres, as reported on Kol Yisrael radio.

One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail." -- Rabbi Yaacov Perrin, Feb. 27, 1994 [Source: N.Y. Times, Feb. 28, 1994, p. 1]

Do you have a web site of deception for these things?

To you who are considering following the ways of the jews, I have these words for you:
Read 1st John 2: 22-23

22: Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
23: Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

[Yaakov]

Hello warrior,

We, the Jewish people have survived for a few thousand years. We have suffered through numerous catastrophes, and our religion has survived with us.

We have survived and our religion has survived because our faith is built upon a rock solid foundation, a belief in one and only one God.

It is almost understandable why people like you attack us and our religion. Your stated belief is in a religion assembled on a wobbly foundation with styrofoam bricks from other mythological sources Multiple gods, virgin births, man-gods, return from death, all the things your mind tells you are illogical and false.

In your confused and desparate state, you attempt to use your false religion, (Do unto others...., Love thy neighbor...., Turn the other cheek...., and so on) to condone the ridicule, torture and murder of others who do not wish to believe as you.

Time continues forward, and we wait for the coming of the HUMAN BEING, the massiah, when things will be put into their proper place, for ALL people.

Your false religion will pass just as the others have passed, to be looked back on as just another myth.

[Nigal]

Shalom in the name of Hashem blessed is His name!

When it comes to getting a firm and clear representation of Judaism it all comes back to one place, the Torah. The Torah is what G-d gave mankind as the measuring stick for all of life and every situation. If someone proclaims something and it is not supported by the Torah then it is in error. It does not seem to be intellectually honest to quote political leaders in an effort to make a true representation of Judaism. We must look to the Torah and the complete Tanach if we are to measure Judaism. Yes it is sad to see some radicals say things that go directly against the Torah but every religion has it’s wayward followers from time to time. But the Torah is eternal and everlasting and the proclamations of a few will never change it.





If you would like to learn what Judaism is and what it entails a very good site is http://www.jewfaq.org/ (http://www.jewfaq.org/). BTW- just so no one is mislead, I am not Jewish or xtian.

Shalom and may He bless you greatly!

[the dauer]

the dauer: Thank you for responding to me. However you gave me no more than I expected from a person who is trained to deceive the Gentiles. Firstly, you gave me a jewish site that I am sure is constucted to misinform; Secondly, you ignored the assertions of my post concerning the 50/1 ratio, and Jesus' statement that jews are the children of the devil.
Now, I did not come here to slander you, I came only to show that those who are seriously considering following the teachings of Judaism that they are headed down a path that is contridictory to God.
If the site you posted was not to misinform, then why weren't the pages of the Talmud scanned into the response instead of some vauge reply given as the answer?
How do you explain away this hatred:

"Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on trial."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, 25 March, 2001 quoted in BBC News Online

Jewish plan for America
"We must realize that our party's most powerful weapon is racial tensions. By propounding into the consciousness of the dark races that for centuries they have been oppressed by whites, we can mold them to the program of the Communist Party. In America we will aim for subtle victory. While inflaming the Negro minority against the whites, we will endeavor to instill in the whites a guilt complex for their exploitation of the Negros. We will aid the Negroes to rise in prominence in every walk of life, in the professions and in the world of sports and entertainment. With this prestige, the Negro will be able to intermarry with the whites and begin a process which will deliver America to our cause."
Israel Cohen, A Racial Program for the Twentieth Century, 1912. Also in the Congressional Record, Vol. 103, p. 8559, June 7, 1957

"[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the 'Beasts,"' New Statesman, June 25, 1982.

"This country exists as the fulfillment of a promise made by God Himself. It would be ridiculous to ask it to account for its legitimacy."
-- Golda Meir, Le Monde, 15 October 1971

"There is no such thing as a Palestinian people... It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn't exist."
-- Golda Meir, statement to The Sunday Times, 15 June, 1969.

"Jewish blood and a goy's [gentile's] blood are not the same."
Israeli Rabbi Yitzhak Ginsburg, Inferring that killing isn't murder if the
victim is Gentile. Jerusalem Post, June 19,1989.

"Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it."
-- Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, October 3, 2001, to Shimon Peres, as reported on Kol Yisrael radio.

One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail." -- Rabbi Yaacov Perrin, Feb. 27, 1994 [Source: N.Y. Times, Feb. 28, 1994, p. 1]

Do you have a web site of deception for these things?

To you who are considering following the ways of the jews, I have these words for you:
Read 1st John 2: 22-23

22: Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
23: Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

I could not find the quote about the 1/50, but I did find something else and I will quote it for you.

THE Theological OBSESSION


The Christian gospel is described as being "to the Jew first and also to the Greek [gentile]" (Romans 1:16). Fundamentalist evangelical Christians interpret this to mean that they have a mandate to convert every person, but especially Jews.


Many fundamentalist Christians believe that the Jews are the key to bringing about the "Second Coming" of Jesus and salvation to all of mankind. To prove their point, they quote the passages, "Salvation is from the Jews" (John 4:22) and "You will not see me until you [the Jews] say, " is he [Jesus] that comes in the name of the Lord'" (Matthew 23:39).


Some believe that Jesus' return is dependent upon the conversion of exactly 144,000 Jews (based upon the seventh chapter of Revelation) and that the rest of the Jews will be wiped out during the great tribulation that will accompany the return of Jesus. In the words of Richard Yao, a non-Jewish former fundamentalist:



"The disturbing thing about all this is that millions of people in this country are getting used to the idea that it's okay for millions and millions of people [Jews] to die in this terrible holocaust [tribulation], because that's a requirement for Jesus to return. I think that's very, very scary."



THE PSYCHOLOGICAL OBSESSION


Since the concept of a Messiah was originally and exclusively a Jewish concept, the rejection of Jesus as the Messiah by the Jews has always posed a serious paradox and dilemma for the Christian Church. Therefore, in the eyes of many evangelical fundamentalists, each conversion of a Jew to Christianity becomes a corroboration of their faith.


For centuries, the response to the Jewish rejection of Jesus has been persecution of Jews rationalized as G-d's divine punishment for having rejected Jesus. The fire of prejudice was fueled by New Testament passages such as:


"You [Jews] are of your father the devil." (John 8:44)


"The Jews who killed both Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out, they are not pleasing to G-d." (I Thessalonians 2:15)


"All the people [Jews] answered and said, his blood be upon us and on our children." (Matthew 27:25)


Most fundamentalists will argue that the perpetrators of the history of atrocities against the Jews were not "true" Christians. However, according to many historians, it is precisely such New Testament rhetoric that is responsible for creating the atmosphere in which such events could transpire.2


Today, after almost 2,000 years of Jewish rejection of Jesus, the dilemma still exists. It is out of this tremendous theological and psychological need that the fundamentalist Christians have committed millions of dollars to develop new, sophisticated and often deceptive techniques to convert Jews.

http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/handbook/s_obsession.html

It quotes NT for you. By the way, Jesus was a Jew. If something is said about the Jews, should he not be included?

As far as those quotes you gave, they may or may not be true. But they represent the extremist thoughts of individuals and do not represent the beliefs maintained by mainstream Judaism. Do you happily maintain as right conduct and word the Inquisition and the Crusades and the Blood Libels and the antisemitic writings of Martin Luther?

"We are at fault in not slaying them."

Martin Luther, speaking on the Christian need to murder other people to avenge Jesus and what he claimed as Christians killed at the hands of the Jews hundred and hundreds of years ago.

Ben

[campbell34]

As far as Jesus being "the christ," there are a number of very clear measures of whether the messiah has come, such as world peace. Without this, we know he hasn't come. Also, the emphasis in Judaism is not on the messiah but on the age that follows his coming. Jews would never even think of worshipping the real messiah. He'll just be a person like anyone else.
-Do you believe as the Bible teaches that the Jewish people poluted God's name where ever they wondered on the earth and continue to do so today?

I had concern for my holy name, which the house of Israel profaned among the nations where they had gone.

"Therefore say to the house of Israel, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone.-Ezekiel 36:21-22

Also, If this is God's opinion of Jewish spirituality why would anybody look to the Jewish people for Biblical truth?

[Warrior]

I will attempt to respond to all of your posts later as I am pressed for time tonight. However, I do want to respond to two of your slanders right away.
1). That Jesus was a jew. Jesus was an Isrealite. Jews ariginated out of Edom and were a mixed race of people. Isrealites are of one nation (race).
2). The jews are not even mentioned in the Torah - the first five books of the Bible.
3). " We, the Jewish people have survived for a few thousand years. We have suffered through numerous catastrophes, and our religion has survived with us."
This is typical jewish "feel sorry for us rhetoric". No sympathy here. BTW, why wont you mention all of the catastrophes that your religion has perpatrated upon the entire world - such as the mass killings in Palestine that is being carried out daily by jews?
4). "It is almost understandable why people like you attack us and our religion. Your stated belief is in a religion assembled on a wobbly foundation with styrofoam bricks from other mythological sources Multiple gods, virgin births, man-gods, return from death, all the things your mind tells you are illogical and false."
My religion is based on a very solid foundation - that of the entire Bible and the words of God and Jesus. There is no paganism in Christianity as you claim. I know that I am dealing with masters of deceit, and you will try to use this deceit to defeat me. But I will argue against your lies and show them to be such. Pull your panties up girls, you're in for a ride.

[Nigal]

Please disregard my above post. I had no idea of the level of hatred I was dealing with. I bid you peace and blessings no matter what.

Shalom

[the dauer]

-Do you believe as the Bible teaches that the Jewish people poluted God's name where ever they wondered on the earth and continue to do so today?

I had concern for my holy name, which the house of Israel profaned among the nations where they had gone.

"Therefore say to the house of Israel, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone.-Ezekiel 36:21-22

Also, If this is God's opinion of Jewish spirituality why would anybody look to the Jewish people for Biblical truth?

You have skipped over some important information. Your quote begins therefore. It left me wondering what came before it. Why is this to be said to the house of Israel?

First it is important to mention, God is very upset. There has been idol worship and the people had shed much blood.
...
I scattered them among the nations and they were dispersed through the countries: I punished them in accordance with their ways and deeds. But when they came to those nations, they caused My holy name to be profaned, in that it was said of them, "These are the people of the LORD, yet they had to leave his land." Therefore I am concerned with My holy name, which the house of Israel have caused to be profaned among the nations to which they have come.
Say to the house of Israel: Thus said the Lord GOD: Not for your sake will I act, O House of Israel, but for My holy name, which you have caused to be profaned among the nations to which you have come.

Ezekiel 36:19 - 22

Now, piece by piece.

--I scattered them among the nations and they were dispersed through the countries: I punished them in accordance with their ways and deeds.

They were scattered among the nations. This is their punishment for idolatry and bloodshed.

--But when they came to those nations, they caused My holy name to be profaned, in that it was said of them, "These are the people of the LORD, yet they had to leave his land." Therefore I am concerned with My holy name, which the house of Israel have caused to be profaned among the nations to which they have come.--

GodÕs holy name was profaned because the other nations saw GodÕs people scattered. They would say to themselves, ÒThey claim to be GodÕs people and yet they are scattered. Some God.Ó ItÕs hurting His rep and He wants to repair the damage done. Israel profaned GodÕs name indirectly, by being seen scattered by the other nations. It was not because they were acting poorly. That was dealt with in the last part.

--Say to the house of Israel: Thus said the Lord GOD: Not for your sake will I act, O House of Israel, but for My holy name, which you have caused to be profaned among the nations to which you have come.--

God tells Ezekiel to tell Israel that His actions will be for His name, and not for them. What will these actions be? Beginning in line 23 it describes quite poetically that the nations will see GodÕs holiness through Israel when they are raised to a new spiritual level and follow ALL of the laws and rules. Then theyÕll live in Israel as things were before. And there will be full harvests. And all of Israel will be repaired. And the people will fill the land.

So why is this important? Because God makes the point that he does all of these acts for His name and not for Israel. ÒDonÕt get full of yourselves. It is not for you that I do this. It could have been another nation. But you chose me.Ó And GodÕs name will at that time be given the respect it deserves because the people will have seen the work of His hand. And they will realize that just because His people were scattered, He did not forget them. But it is God and not the people who will take credit for this.

ItÕs like Moses hitting the rock. He does it in anger and makes it seem like he gets the water. God gets no credit. But it was God who made water spring forth from the rock. For this Moses doesnÕt enter the land. And thatÕs what this prophesy was leading up to. Now I will summarize

God scattered Israel as punishment for idolatry and bloodshed. After they were scattered the other nations thought less of God. His name was profaned by the status of His nation of priests being scattered. God wants Israel to know that when He acts it is for Him and not them, so they shouldnÕt develop an ego. Someday God will gather all of Israel back to the land and they will follow all of his laws and the land will be bountiful. But this will be GodÕs doing for GodÕs name. But he will also do for IsraelÕs sake and multiply the people like sheep.

Now you may ask, if the punishment for idolatry was already handed out,, why does God need to cleanse Israel of their fetishes before they enter the land? People are not perfect. That is not our job in life. WeÕre human. God made us as we are. Our job is to strive to do good, and when we do wrong it is our job to make good on what we have done. So on that day it will be expected that some of the Jews will have adopted the fetishes of other people. But at that time they will abandon them.

[the dauer]

I will attempt to respond to all of your posts later as I am pressed for time tonight. However, I do want to respond to two of your slanders right away.
1). That Jesus was a jew. Jesus was an Isrealite. Jews ariginated out of Edom and were a mixed race of people. Isrealites are of one nation (race).
2). The jews are not even mentioned in the Torah - the first five books of the Bible.
3). " We, the Jewish people have survived for a few thousand years. We have suffered through numerous catastrophes, and our religion has survived with us."
This is typical jewish "feel sorry for us rhetoric". No sympathy here. BTW, why wont you mention all of the catastrophes that your religion has perpatrated upon the entire world - such as the mass killings in Palestine that is being carried out daily by jews?
4). "It is almost understandable why people like you attack us and our religion. Your stated belief is in a religion assembled on a wobbly foundation with styrofoam bricks from other mythological sources Multiple gods, virgin births, man-gods, return from death, all the things your mind tells you are illogical and false."
My religion is based on a very solid foundation - that of the entire Bible and the words of God and Jesus. There is no paganism in Christianity as you claim. I know that I am dealing with masters of deceit, and you will try to use this deceit to defeat me. But I will argue against your lies and show them to be such. Pull your panties up girls, you're in for a ride.

1. Jew comes from the hebrew Yehudi which means a resident of Yehuda/Judah/Judea or the Southern Kingdom of Israel. I am using a Christian lexicon, btw. Yehudi occurs at Zc 8:23, Je 43:9, Est 2:5, Je 34:9, Est 3:4, Est 5:13, 6:10, 8:7, 9:29.31, 10:5, I Ch 4:18, Je 52:28.30, 2 K 16:6, 25:25, Je 32:12, 38:19, 40:11.12, 41:3, 44:1, Ne 1:2, 2:16, 3:33.34, 4:6, 5:1.8.17, 6:6, 13:23, Est 3:6.10.13, 4:3.13.14.16, 6:13, 8:3.5.8.9.9.11.16.17.17, 9:1.1.2.3.5.6.10.12.13.16.19.20.22.23.24.24.25.27. 28.30

After Israel split the Northern Kingdom was lost. This is why there are sometimes references in various literature to the lost tribes. Nobody's sure exactly what happened to them. Afterwards all that was left was the Southern Kingdom of Judah, which was made up in large part by the tribe of Judah. After the Babylonian Exile the land was called Judea. A Jew is a person who claims descendance from the people of Judea. This includes converts. Converts often accept the hebrew name <insert name> ben Avraham v'Sarah, or So-and-So Son of Abraham and Sarah. Jesus was most definitely a Jew as he was a resident of Judea. I'll raise the bar and say it's quite likely he was a pharisee and was really opposed to the Sadducees who had been corrupting temple practice and not the Pharisees who were trying to maintain the letter and spirit of the law. But by the time Christianity was becoming its own there were no Sadducees so it needed a new other by which to define itself in opposition.

The lexicon I use is "A Hebrew And English Lexicon of the Old Testament" by Francis Brown, S.R. Driver, and C.A.Briggs. It's based on the work of William Gesenius.

You also state that Israelites are of one race, yet when they left Egypt, were they not a mixed multitude? Nevermind that David came from Ruth, who was a convert. Or that Moses married a non-Jew. It's not an issue of race. Nation is better though. Still not perfect.

2. You are correct. They are not mentioned. But the tribe of Judah is. This is because Israel had not been divided at that time. When Israel split into the Northern and Southern Kingdoms, the Southern was Judah. How is any of that relevant? Would it make you feel better to know that we are also called B'nai Yisrael, the children of Israel?

3. There are no mass killings of Palestinians by Jews. On the contrary, Israel is working towards peace and defending itself from a terrorist threat, something the US has only recently gotten even a taste of. I have never heard of an Israeli cheering on the death of Palestinians or going out on crusades to murder them. I have heard of Israel considering what must be done to stop the violence, and I have heard of Israel investing a lot of money into riot control weapons and the like that will not do serious harm to the individual.

4. Show me where in TaNaKh it says that the messiah will be a GodMan. Show me where it says that he will not fulfill any of the prophesies that would be observable to the whole world. Show me where it says that he will come back from the dead. Show me where it says that we have to have faith in him in order to be saved because we all dirty, dirty people who can't relate to God in any way unless it's through a person who may or may not have existed. TaNaKh, by the way, is Torah. Nevi'im, and Ketuvim. Torah, Prophets, and Writings.

Ben

[Esther]

Warrior wrote:
"Pull up your panties girls, you're in for a ride"
Is this how Xtians talk to non-Xtians? Hardly complementary.

Warrior in a previous post said:
"However you gave me no more than I expected from a person who is trained to deceive the Gentiles. Firstly, you gave me a jewish site that I am sure is constucted to misinform; Secondly, you ignored the assertions of my post concerning the 50/1 ratio, and Jesus' statement that jews are the children of the devil."
Wow! Do you know what you just said? To better understand your inflammatory remarks what if you said that about a Black person? Someone (correctly) would assume you were racist.

As far as using the events in the middle East to camaflouge your hatred of Jews, its easy to selectively pick from a wide range of quotes from any Nation and mis-inform others through your slanted Jew bashing lense.

Warrior wrote:
"Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son."

I guess according to Warrior besides Jews, Muslims, Atheists, Buddists, and other religions are liars and the antichrist. Let me guess, it's you're duty not to respect other faiths and beliefs. Tell me, are you planning on starting up any pogroms, blood libel, and Talmud book burning in your neighborhood soon?

As far as I can see the only deception going on is your own attempts to invalidate Judaism.

[Warrior]

Warrior wrote:
"Pull up your panties girls, you're in for a ride"
Is this how Xtians talk to non-Xtians? Hardly complementary.

Warrior in a previous post said:
"However you gave me no more than I expected from a person who is trained to deceive the Gentiles. Firstly, you gave me a jewish site that I am sure is constucted to misinform; Secondly, you ignored the assertions of my post concerning the 50/1 ratio, and Jesus' statement that jews are the children of the devil."
Wow! Do you know what you just said? To better understand your inflammatory remarks what if you said that about a Black person? Someone (correctly) would assume you were racist.

As far as using the events in the middle East to camaflouge your hatred of Jews, its easy to selectively pick from a wide range of quotes from any Nation and mis-inform others through your slanted Jew bashing lense.

Warrior wrote:
"Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son."

I guess according to Warrior besides Jews, Muslims, Atheists, Buddists, and other religions are liars and the antichrist. Let me guess, it's you're duty not to respect other faiths and beliefs. Tell me, are you planning on starting up any pogroms, blood libel, and Talmud book burning in your neighborhood soon?

As far as I can see the only deception going on is your own attempts to invalidate Judaism.
Isn't this beautifull; Isn't this great? Once again my loving God responds to my prayers! Blessed be the God of the true Isrealites!

Do a check on my posts. Hee, hee, I am a racist! I freely admit that. Will any of you admit that you hate Jesus? Will you admit that you HATE Gentiles?

As I said before girls, pull your panties up, you are in for a ride. Daddy don't discrimate. Daddy IS an anti-semite. Throw all of your anti shit at me and I will admit to it. But what will YOU girls admit too? Nothing because you are deceivers. I am not. I recognize me. Admit your hate, cowards.

You say it is deception to attempt to " invalidate judaism". What is valid in judaism? If it is "valid" then why do you hide the Talmud from non-jews? Why, when I recently tried to purchase one ($1100.oo) why did I need my rabbi to purchase it for me? Because gentiles are not to know the word of it, for then they will know the hatred that is the jew and will destroy you for it.

I do not use the events of the middle east to camaflouge anything. I use that as an example of your self-rightous hatred against nonjews. Why do you MURDER Palestinians, who are powerless against you? Continue your deception and your lies; worship satan as your father, for truly he is. But remember, my God, will cleans His people and destroy you. Shit. You are not even worthy of being that.

Warrior wrote:
"Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son."

Yep, Warrior wrote that - A direct translation from the New Testament.

Do you, jew, "respect other faiths and beliefs."? Nope. So don't try this holier than me crap.

[the dauer]

Isn't this beautifull; Isn't this great? Once again my loving God responds to my prayers! Blessed be the God of the true Isrealites!

Do a check on my posts. Hee, hee, I am a racist! I freely admit that. Will any of you admit that you hate Jesus? Will you admit that you HATE Gentiles?

As I said before girls, pull your panties up, you are in for a ride. Daddy don't discrimate. Daddy IS an anti-semite. Throw all of your anti shit at me and I will admit to it. But what will YOU girls admit too? Nothing because you are deceivers. I am not. I recognize me. Admit your hate, cowards.

You say it is deception to attempt to " invalidate judaism". What is valid in judaism? If it is "valid" then why do you hide the Talmud from non-jews? Why, when I recently tried to purchase one ($1100.oo) why did I need my rabbi to purchase it for me? Because gentiles are not to know the word of it, for then they will know the hatred that is the jew and will destroy you for it.

I do not use the events of the middle east to camaflouge anything. I use that as an example of your self-rightous hatred against nonjews. Why do you MURDER Palestinians, who are powerless against you? Continue your deception and your lies; worship satan as your father, for truly he is. But remember, my God, will cleans His people and destroy you. Shit. You are not even worthy of being that.

Warrior wrote:
"Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son."

Yep, Warrior wrote that - A direct translation from the New Testament.

Do you, jew, "respect other faiths and beliefs."? Nope. So don't try this holier than me crap.

I cannot answer why you needed a rabbi to get you a copy of the Talmud. Honestly, I don't know why you would want to buy volumes and volumes of books when you can buy a CD-Rom collection for less. What happened to you does not make sense to me. Look up talmud and CD. You will find it.

However, I would warn against selective reading. The talmud is a collection of many voices over many generations. But it would be wrong of me to deny you the talmud, even if you are an admitted antisemite. I would only encourage you not to jump to conclusions and rather speak with a rabbi or other learned individual about any troubling passage, as there are probably many passages relevant to that one.

Now what are you trying to say that we don't respect other faiths and beliefs? When faith is positive for someone it can be beautiful. When it is not positive for someone it can become very ugly. Sometimes it can be positive in some ways and negative in others, but a little poison can taint all of the water. This is true of all religions. Did my statement about the divinity of Jesus bother you? This is a thread in a Jewish forum on messianic Jews. I gave the Jewish view on messianic Jews and the reason for it. I could claim I was the messiah, but it wouldn't hold water and I would be a false messiah. And even if somebody did believe me, when I died they would know the truth because nothing would have been fulfilled. No peace for the world, no gathering of all of the Jewish people, etc etc. And when the messiah comes he will not be worshipped.

There is nothing hateful in being critical. And if we hate other faiths, how could I possibly allow myself to use the BDB, a Christian lexicon, own a copy of the Tao Te Ching, or try to understand the validity of the possible connections between Abraham and Brahma, Sarah and Saraisvati? My rabbi was encouraging me to read a book called The Jew in the Lotus, which itself is about a meeting between Buddhists including the Dalai Lama and a group of Jewish leaders from all denominations. This does not seem like hate. Oh, and let us not forget the Jewish groups who went down South to help repair burned churches.

Ben

[vinceneilsgirl]

I don't know if any of you saw this, but Warrior also denies the fact that the Holocaust happend. He calls it the "Holohaux", call the survivors liars, and calls the pictures and other evidence to be non-evidence. Go to this thread to see what I mean...

http://hipforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15784&page=1&pp=10

[the dauer]

I don't know if any of you saw this, but Warrior also denies the fact that the Holocaust happend. He calls it the "Holohaux", call the survivors liars, and calls the pictures and other evidence to be non-evidence. Go to this thread to see what I mean...

http://hipforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15784&page=1&pp=10

Thank you vinceneilsgirl. I saw that thread a few days ago. I'm not really concerned with whether Warrior's claims are legitimate or not. I just don't want them to be the last word in the Judaism threads. Maybe it would be easier not to answer him, but at least it allows me to show everyone else how and why his arguements are not true. Whether this is of value or not, I do not know. For now I'll just keep on keepin on.

Dauer

[vinceneilsgirl]

Thank you vinceneilsgirl. I saw that thread a few days ago. I'm not really concerned with whether Warrior's claims are legitimate or not. I just don't want them to be the last word in the Judaism threads. Maybe it would be easier not to answer him, but at least it allows me to show everyone else how and why his arguements are not true. Whether this is of value or not, I do not know. For now I'll just keep on keepin on.

Dauer

:) It IS of value to show others just how wrong he is. He isn't using facts or logic and is blinded by hate. When someone doesn't accept pictures of emaciated prisoners and piles of dead bodies as proof it is safe to assume that hate has made them blind.

I know some would say; "Free speech means he can say whatever he wants". But people need to realize that he isn't just spewing an opinon here, he's denying facts and using that denial to try to entice others to hate. Hate speech isn't free speech.

[feministhippy]

And he also said that we're liars by saying we respect other people's religions. That's bull. One person disrespecting my beliefs will never take away my respect for a whole faith. Many people disrespecting my beliefs will never take away my respect for a whole faith. Because all religions are also full of decent people just like me going about their lives, just like me. People are people, regardless of creed. Why would saying I respect them be lying? Just because they chose a path that is different than mine? Am I only allowed to respect those of my own faith? I've never read that law. And the whole "Don't give me you're holier than thou bullshit" argument is silly- one person talks rationally to him as he shouts, and that's supposed to be taken as an insult?

This is just a 12 year old trying to get attention. I highly doubt this guy believed one word of what he was saying.

[SpiralSpirit]

wait...if jesus says the jews are the sons of devils, and jesus was a jew, and jesus was the son of god, does that mean god is the devil, jesus is the son of the devil, and christianity is devil-worship?

or maybe im just confused.

[Sunflower73]

jews for jesus is like vegans for cheeseburgers

Hahaha great analogy. I agree.

[HuckFinn]

wait...if jesus says the jews are the sons of devils, and jesus was a jew, and jesus was the son of god, does that mean god is the devil, jesus is the son of the devil, and christianity is devil-worship?

or maybe im just confused.Jesus directed this accusation at the Jewish leaders and others who refused to believe in him, not the Jewish race as a whole. His point was that being a child of God depends on faith in him, rather than blood lineage.

Those condemn Messianic Judaism as a fraud overlook the fact that Christianity began as a Jewish sect. In fact, according to the book of Acts, it was a scandalous idea at the time that Gentiles could become Christians!

[the dauer]

Jesus directed this accusation at the Jewish leaders and others who refused to believe in him, not the Jewish race as a whole.

Judaism is not a race. Never was. I like to think of us as a God-focused people. And all Jews refuse to believe in Jesus. Those who do not render become kareit, cut off. Of course because of the nature of Judaism they can do teshuva, returning or repentance, and come back to the fold.

His point was that being a child of God depends on faith in him, rather than blood lineage.

According to Judaism anyone can be in right with God, Jew or gentile. It's determined by right-action, which for gentiles is defined by the 7 laws of Noah. But basically we believe that the righteous of all nations have a place in the world-to-come. In addition to that, anyone can become a Jew. There's even a book dedicated to a convert: Ruth. Conversion is sometimes discouraged because it's easier to be a good gentile than a good Jew. Jews have more expected of them.

Those condemn Messianic Judaism as a fraud overlook the fact that Christianity began as a Jewish sect.

Yes, originally Christianity was something Jewish. But like all Jews know, the messiah is only a person, and if he dies and all of the messianic prophesies have not been fulfilled, he's not the messiah. Paul's work among the Romans however, was much more successful. That's where you get pagan myth like that of the dying god introduced into the system.

The problem with messianics is that they're trying to practice the way Jesus would have, or even to have Jewish beliefs, which would mean accepting Jesus is not in any way divine. It wouldn't be so horrible if they said he was the messiah -- in the Jewish sense -- because then they'd just be wrong. But they're taking modern Judaism, meaning practices that have evolved over time and modern customs, and mixing in entirely Christian doctrine, even changing the reasons for what's being done. The goal of some of these groups, like Jews4Jesus, is entirely missionary. So no, I do not approve. And yes, messianic Judaism is a complete fraud. I make no apologies for my views.

In fact, according to the book of Acts, it was a scandalous idea at the time that Gentiles could become Christians!

Of course it was! Why would the Jews want Christians bringing more and more people into their heresy?

I don't have a problem with Christianity and I don't want to give that impression. I do have a problem with Christians putting on talis and tefillin, davening to a three-person godhead, one of whom was supposedly once mortal, and calling it Judaism, all the while calling Jews who join them "complete" Jews.

:(

Not right.

Dauer

[HuckFinn]

Judaism is not a race. Never was. I like to think of us as a God-focused people.This point had obviously been lost on a number of Jewish leaders in Jesus' time.


And all Jews refuse to believe in Jesus. Those who do not render become kareit, cut off. Of course because of the nature of Judaism they can do teshuva, returning or repentance, and come back to the fold.It's pretty sad that Judaism has come to be defined by rejecting Jesus as Messiah. Are Jewish atheists, Buddhists, Hindus, etc. judged as harshly as Messianic Jews? To my knowledge, all can easily become Israeli citizens except Messianic Jews or Semitic Muslims, i.e. Palestinians.


According to Judaism anyone can be in right with God, Jew or gentile. It's determined by right-action, which for gentiles is defined by the 7 laws of Noah. But basically we believe that the righteous of all nations have a place in the world-to-come. In addition to that, anyone can become a Jew. There's even a book dedicated to a convert: Ruth. Conversion is sometimes discouraged because it's easier to be a good gentile than a good Jew. Jews have more expected of them.So you believe that salvation can be earned by good works? What was the purpose of the Levitical priesthood, and why are sacrifices no longer necessary?


Yes, originally Christianity was something Jewish. But like all Jews know, the messiah is only a person, and if he dies and all of the messianic prophesies have not been fulfilled, he's not the messiah. Paul's work among the Romans however, was much more successful. That's where you get pagan myth like that of the dying god introduced into the system.If the Messiah was only human, how do you explain prophecies that identify him with God, such as Is. 9:6 and Zech. 12:10, or the fact that David addressed him as "lord" in Ps. 110? Moreover, if the Messiah was not to die, what do you do with Ps. 22, Is. 53, Zech. 12:10, and Dan. 9:26? Also, how could a mere man bring about prophecied world peace, and how would he remove the sins of God's people, as taught in Zech. 3?

Of course, the Christian answer is that the Messiah came first to reconcile people to God and that he will come again to vanquish evil and death and to judge all who refuse to be reconciled to him. Interestingly, when Jesus quoted Is. 61 in reference to himself, he stopped in mid-sentence, indicating that the "day of vengeance" was yet to come (Lk. 4:16-21).


The problem with messianics is that they're trying to practice the way Jesus would have, or even to have Jewish beliefs, which would mean accepting Jesus is not in any way divine. It wouldn't be so horrible if they said he was the messiah -- in the Jewish sense -- because then they'd just be wrong.Except that Jesus himself clearly claimed to be divine, which is why he was killed. One cannot accept his Messianic claims while rejecting his divinity.


But they're taking modern Judaism, meaning practices that have evolved over time and modern customs, and mixing in entirely Christian doctrine, even changing the reasons for what's being done. The goal of some of these groups, like Jews4Jesus, is entirely missionary. So no, I do not approve. And yes, messianic Judaism is a complete fraud. I make no apologies for my views.You see no Messianic element in customs such as Passover? Do you have any theology of atonement?


Of course it was! Why would the Jews want Christians bringing more and more people into their heresy?Would they prefer that these Gentiles remain pagans? Actually, though, it was Messianic Jews (including the apostles themselves) who were shocked at the idea of God welcoming Gentiles without subjecting them to the Mosaic Law.


I don't have a problem with Christianity and I don't want to give that impression. I do have a problem with Christians putting on talis and tefillin, davening to a three-person godhead, one of whom was supposedly once mortal, and calling it Judaism, all the while calling Jews who join them "complete" Jews.First, Jesus' deity was never mortal; rather, he took on a fully human nature while remaining fully divine. Second, Messianic prophecy is central to Jewish faith. If Jesus is the Messiah, then "complete" Jews is an apt term for those who believe in him. You might disagree with them, but it is unfair to disparage their character and motives.

[the dauer]

This point had obviously been lost on a number of Jewish leaders in Jesus' time.

According to what source? The gospels are mostly propaganda and polemic, and I wouldn't rely on them for accurate history anymore than I would the books of the Tanakh -- yes I am a liberal.


It's pretty sad that Judaism has come to be defined by rejecting Jesus as Messiah. Are Jewish atheists, Buddhists, Hindus, etc. judged as harshly as Messianic Jews? To my knowledge, all can easily become Israeli citizens except Messianic Jews or Semitic Muslims, i.e. Palestinians.

The problem with Jews accepting Jesus is that it is a) idolatry by suggesting God is something in physical space and b) blaspheme because of the trinity. And the problem with Messianic Judaism is that it is not a Jewish organization. It was started by fundamentalist Christians in order to gain more Jewish converts. Here's that coming from a Christian source.This is a Christian admission of the role of "messianic Judaism":

http://www.pcusa.org/ga216/business/overtures/ovt0468.htm

You choose to define Judaism as "rejecting Jesus." That is your decision. If Hindus were trying to convert Jews, I would be just as wary of their actions. Luckily, most religions don't have such universalist views that they must make everyone else like them.

So you believe that salvation can be earned by good works? What was the purpose of the Levitical priesthood, and why are sacrifices no longer necessary?

The qorbanot -- qorban is the Hebrew word for sacrifice which actually means to come close or draw near as in an intimate encounter with God -- ended because the Temple was destroyed. It was only used for specific transgressions. But just as there was no need for them in Daniel's time, there's no need for them in ours. As far as textual support that we don't actually need sacrifices -- most of which had nothing to do with atonement:

if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land. [2 Chronicles 7:14]

But if from there you seek the Eternal your God, you will find him if you look for him with all your heart and with all your soul. [Deuteronomy 4:29]

He prays to God and finds favor with him, he sees God's face and shouts for joy; he is restored by God to his righteous state. [Job 33:26]

Turn from evil and do good; seek peace and pursue it. [Psalm 34:14]

The Eternal is close to the brokenhearted and saves those who are crushed in spirit. [Psalm 34:18]

You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it; you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise. [Psalm 51:16-17]


Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but my ears you have pierced; burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not require. [Psalm 40:6]

Take words with you and return to the Eternal. Say to him: "Forgive all our sins and receive us graciously, that we may offer the bulls of our lips. [Hosea 14:2]

He who conceals his sins does not prosper, but whoever confesses and renounces them finds mercy. [Proverbs 28:13]


Through love and faithfulness sin is atoned for; through the fear of the Eternal a man avoids evil. [Proverbs 16:6]

To do what is right and just is more acceptable to the Eternal than sacrifice. [Proverbs 21:3]

For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings. [Hosea 6:6]


The Eternal is close to the brokenhearted and saves those who are crushed in spirit. [Psalm 34:18]


He prays to God and finds favor with him, he sees God's face and shouts for joy; he is restored by God to his righteous state. [Job 33:26]


With what shall I come before the Eternal and bow down before the exalted God? Shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves a year old? Will the Eternal be pleased with thousands of rams, with ten thousand rivers of oil? Shall I offer my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? He has showed you, O man, what is good. And what does the Eternal require of you? Only to do Justice, and to love Mercy and to walk humbly with your God. [Micah 6:6-8]

According to the Orthodox, when the Temple is rebuilt after the moshiach comes we will again have qorbanot


If the Messiah was only human, how do you explain prophecies that identify him with God, such as Is. 9:6 and Zech. 12:10

Is. 9:6 is a Christian mistranslation that is taken out of context. See here:

http://messiahtruth.com/isa9.html

I'm sorry. What does Zech 12:10 have to do with anything? That may be another mistranslation on the part of Christianity because I see nothing of relevance.

, or the fact that David addressed him as "lord" in Ps. 110?

Lord is a pretty common word in Hebrew, and many people are called that, but for a word-by-word analysis see:

http://www.messiahtruth.com/ps110.html


Moreover, if the Messiah was not to die, what do you do with Ps. 22,

Huge translational errors there. It's not messianic. It's David speaking about himself. Another link.

http://www.messiahtruth.com/psa22.html

Is. 53,

The servant is Israel. Israel is called the servant throughout Isaiah. You can reread the whole book if you want. But if you'd like a guide to your reading:

http://www.messiahtruth.com/isa53intro.html

Zech. 12:10,

You said that already. I have no idea what that has to do with anything.

and Dan. 9:26?

Dan 9 is complicated. Luckily, Rashi was a very smart man. This is the text with all of Rashi's commentary.

http://www1.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=16492&showrashi=true

Also, how could a mere man bring about prophecied world peace, and how would he remove the sins of God's people, as taught in Zech. 3?

Now I will ask some questions. How did Moses part the sea? How did Elijah light the wood on fire? The Tanakh is filled with miracles, and none of these people had special powers. It was always God. God does not need to limit Himself to time and space in order to get things done. And if you look at Zech 3.9 it says "...I will execute its engraving -- declares the LORD of Hosts -- and I will remove the country's guilt in a single day."

It's not the moshiach who does it. It's God!

Of course, the Christian answer is that the Messiah came first to reconcile people to God and that he will come again to vanquish evil and death and to judge all who refuse to be reconciled to him.

According to Judaism when the moshiach comes, if the world is all evil it will be a "difficult birth" and if the world is all good it will be an "easy birth." -- not of the moshiach but of the age that comes with him -- which is not to say the world will be all one or the other, but it will be closer to one of these extremes. Either way, eventually there will be world peace and the nations will no longer fight with each other. The Temple will be rebuilt etc. Some of it is vague. I don't have strong beliefs about the moshiach as I am very liberal. Some Jews feel we can bring the time of the moshiach closer through our actions.


Except that Jesus himself clearly claimed to be divine, which is why he was killed. One cannot accept his Messianic claims while rejecting his divinity.

Jesus contradicts himself sometimes, doesn't he?

Matthew 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? [17] And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], G-d: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. (KJV)

Mark 10:17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? [18] And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], G-d. (KJV)



You see no Messianic element in customs such as Passover? Do you have any theology of atonement?

The emphasis in Judaism is on right-action and not sin, but yes we do have a theology of atonement. It's based on right action, and making good on the wrongs we've done. a) what does "messianic element" have to do with "messianic Judaism?" The idea of a moshiach does appear in Judaism, just in a very different form than it does in Christianity. No, I don't see anything messianic about Pesach. and b) There's a difference between recognizing existing messianic material and saying that the afikomen represents Jesus. I suppose "next year in Jerusalem" may have originally been a messianic idea. That's not what I'm challenging. It's things like changing the meaning of the afikomen to reflect Christology that I have a problem with.


Would they prefer that these Gentiles remain pagans?

Me personally? I could care less. I think it has more to do with making Judaism profane than anything else. Luckily, the heresy broke off completely and became Rome. Actually, considering what the Church did with its power, that was probably a bad thing. Then again, if not the Christians, it could have been the followers of Mithras in power. I really don't know how History would have worked out otherwise.

Actually, though, it was Messianic Jews (including the apostles themselves) who were shocked at the idea of God welcoming Gentiles without subjecting them to the Mosaic Law.

Messianic Jew is a modern term. Please do not confuse it with the apostles, of whom we really have no information. Are you familiar with modern scholarship on the authors of the gospels? They were probably written after the epistles. I wouldn't call it "subjecting." That term only works if mosaic law is a bad thing. Christianity tries to make it look that way in order to justify its existence but the fact is that like many other religions in the world it is quite beautiful. It's really not about God welcoming gentiles without subjecting them to "mosaic law." It's more about a particular group deciding it's okay to call yourself Jewish without following the path of the mitzvot, actually accepting pagan rituals and mythology in its place.

It's like what's happening now with so-called "messianic Judaism."


Second, Messianic prophecy is central to Jewish faith.

Central? No. A part of? Sure.

If Jesus is the Messiah, then "complete" Jews is an apt term for those who believe in him.

What happens when the moshiach comes? Tell me how Jesus stacks up.

¥ The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with Òfear of G-dÓ. (Isaiah 11:2)
¥ Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership. (Isaiah 11:4)
¥ He will be descended from David HaMelech (Isaiah 11:1) via Solomon (1 Chron. 22:8-10)
¥ Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4).
¥ He will be a messenger of peace. (Isaiah 52:7)
¥ There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8 ).
¥ Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)
¥ Knowledge of G-d will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9).
¥ The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23).
¥ All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19).
¥ Jews will have returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)
¥ The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11).
¥ The Sanhedrin will be re-established. (Isaiah 1:26)
¥ The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55).
¥ The Temple will be rebuilt (Ezekiel 40) resuming many of the suspended mitzvos.
¥ The whole world will worship the One G-d of Israel. (Isaiah 2:17)

http://www.kosherjudaism.com/moshiach.pdf

Also, belief in the moshiach will never complete somebody. You make it much more important than it is. There is something in the Talmud that says if you are holding a sapling and someone tells you the moshiach has come, plant it first and then go find out. The most important thing to believe in is God. The messiah's just another person, maybe as righteous as Moses. Who knows?

You might disagree with them, but it is unfair to disparage their character and motives.

I am not disparaging their character and motives. I am helping to show what they're really about. On J4J:

http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/j4jlibrary/jewsforjesus.html

General info on "messianic Judaism":

http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/j4jlibrary/messianicjudaism.html

I know I've been posting a lot of links. You're mentioning a lot of things. If you mention less, I will probably discuss more in-thread.

Dauer

[HuckFinn]

The problem with Jews accepting Jesus is that it is a) idolatry by suggesting God is something in physical space
God didn't cease to be transcendent in the Incarnation. This is admittedly the most mysterious of all Christian teachings, but both the Old and New Testaments consistently affirm that nothing is impossible for God and that his ways are incomprehensible to finite man.


and b) blaspheme because of the trinity.
See:

http://www.jewsforjesus.org/answers/qa/karoltrinity.htm

http://www.jewsforjesus.org/library/issues/01-08/jewish.htm

http://www.jewsforjesus.org/library/issues/10-08/trinity.htm


And the problem with Messianic Judaism is that it is not a Jewish organization. It was started by fundamentalist Christians in order to gain more Jewish converts.
It was founded and continues to be run by Jews who believe that Jesus is their Messiah and who have a passion to share this truth with their brethren.


Here's that coming from a Christian source.This is a Christian admission of the role of "messianic Judaism":
http://www.pcusa.org/ga216/business/overtures/ovt0468.htm
This looks like a repudiation of the universality of the gospel by a characteristically liberal mainline denomination.


You choose to define Judaism as "rejecting Jesus." That is your decision. If Hindus were trying to convert Jews, I would be just as wary of their actions.
You didn't answer my question. Are Jewish Hindus typically "cut off" from the larger Jewish community in the way that Messianic Jews are?


Luckily, most religions don't have such universalist views that they must make everyone else like them.
Only your liberalism allows you to say this. The Hebrew Scriptures are quite "intolerant" of other religions.


The qorbanot -- qorban is the Hebrew word for sacrifice which actually means to come close or draw near as in an intimate encounter with God -- ended because the Temple was destroyed. It was only used for specific transgressions.
What about Yom Kippur, the Most Holy Place, and the scapegoat? There seems to be clear recognition that man is separated from God by sin. Even a righteous prophet like Isaiah realized this (Is. 6:1-7).


But just as there was no need for them in Daniel's time, there's no need for them in ours.
Could it be that the Jews have been "exiled" (as in Daniel's time) for their rejection of the Messiah?


As far as textual support that we don't actually need sacrifices --
Many of the passages you cite here are quoted in the New Testament, particularly the book of Hebrews. I agree that ritual sacrifices are not what ultimately matter to God, but the only reason they are no longer required is because of Jesus' perfect life and sacrifice on our behalf.


According to the Orthodox, when the Temple is rebuilt after the moshiach comes we will again have qorbanot
Why would such sacrifices be needed in the perfect Messianic age?


Is. 9:6 is a Christian mistranslation that is taken out of context. See here:
http://messiahtruth.com/isa9.html
Right back at ya:
http://www.journalofbiblicalstudies.org/Issue1/Articles/linkage_between_isaiah_7.htm


I'm sorry. What does Zech 12:10 have to do with anything? That may be another mistranslation on the part of Christianity because I see nothing of relevance.
See http://www.jewsforjesus.org/answers/qa/Zech1210.htm.


Lord is a pretty common word in Hebrew, and many people are called that, but for a word-by-word analysis see:
http://www.messiahtruth.com/ps110.html
Even if it only means "master," why would David apply it to one of his descendants? And what does it mean that the Messiah would be a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek?

Also, check out http://www.jewsforjesus.org/library/issues/01-09/son.htm.


Huge translational errors there. It's not messianic. It's David speaking about himself. Another link.
http://www.messiahtruth.com/psa22.html
See http://www.gospelcom.net/rbc/ds/q1208/point3.html. Prophecies often have multiple layers of meaning.


The servant is Israel. Israel is called the servant throughout Isaiah. You can reread the whole book if you want. But if you'd like a guide to your reading:
http://www.messiahtruth.com/isa53intro.html
It is true that Isaiah often refers to the nation of Israel as God's servant, but such a reading of Is. 53 just doesn't work. It is implausible to argue that he inexplicably switches to narrating from a Gentile perspective in v. 5-8! This is not only a Herculean leap of logic, it's a departure from historic Jewish interpretation:

http://www.jewsforjesus.org/library/issues/02-05/Isaiah53.htm

http://www.jewsforjesus.org/answers/qa/Isaiah53.htm

http://www.jewsforjesus.org/library/issues/07-09/prophetrabbis.htm

Your link conveniently ignores Is. 49:6, which clearly teaches that the mission of the servant was to restore the people of Israel, as well as the Gentiles. How could Israel restore itself?


Dan 9 is complicated. Luckily, Rashi was a very smart man. This is the text with all of Rashi's commentary.
http://www1.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=16492&showrashi=true
The Anointed One is King Agrippa? That seems untenable. When did this idea originate?


Now I will ask some questions. How did Moses part the sea? How did Elijah light the wood on fire? The Tanakh is filled with miracles, and none of these people had special powers. It was always God. God does not need to limit Himself to time and space in order to get things done. And if you look at Zech 3.9 it says "...I will execute its engraving -- declares the LORD of Hosts -- and I will remove the country's guilt in a single day."
It's not the moshiach who does it. It's God!
So, how do you believe that God will remove the sin of his people in a single day?


According to Judaism when the moshiach comes, if the world is all evil it will be a "difficult birth" and if the world is all good it will be an "easy birth." -- not of the moshiach but of the age that comes with him -- which is not to say the world will be all one or the other, but it will be closer to one of these extremes. Either way, eventually there will be world peace and the nations will no longer fight with each other. The Temple will be rebuilt etc. Some of it is vague. I don't have strong beliefs about the moshiach as I am very liberal. Some Jews feel we can bring the time of the moshiach closer through our actions.
How will human nature be changed in order to bring about this perfect kingdom?


Jesus contradicts himself sometimes, doesn't he?
Matthew 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? [17] And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], G-d: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. (KJV)
Mark 10:17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? [18] And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], G-d. (KJV)
Here's an excellent sermon on the parallel passage of Luke:
http://www.communityefc.org/cgi-bin/download.cgi?download=2002/CEFC_2002022400_16kbps_mono.mp3


The emphasis in Judaism is on right-action and not sin, but yes we do have a theology of atonement. It's based on right action, and making good on the wrongs we've done.
In other words, we must atone for our own sin? I submit that this is impossible. See Ps. 32:1-5 & 130.


a) what does "messianic element" have to do with "messianic Judaism?" The idea of a moshiach does appear in Judaism, just in a very different form than it does in Christianity. No, I don't see anything messianic about Pesach. and b) There's a difference between recognizing existing messianic material and saying that the afikomen represents Jesus. I suppose "next year in Jerusalem" may have originally been a messianic idea. That's not what I'm challenging. It's things like changing the meaning of the afikomen to reflect Christology that I have a problem with.
The symbolism of Passover is hard to miss. God executes judgment on the sins of Egypt, but he “passes over” the families of his faithful remnant based on the blood of a sacrificial lamb, though they were by no means worthy of such mercy (Dt. 9).


Messianic Jew is a modern term. Please do not confuse it with the apostles, of whom we really have no information. Are you familiar with modern scholarship on the authors of the gospels? They were probably written after the epistles.
See http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/bib-docu.html.


I wouldn't call it "subjecting." That term only works if mosaic law is a bad thing. Christianity tries to make it look that way in order to justify its existence but the fact is that like many other religions in the world it is quite beautiful. It's really not about God welcoming gentiles without subjecting them to "mosaic law." It's more about a particular group deciding it's okay to call yourself Jewish without following the path of the mitzvot, actually accepting pagan rituals and mythology in its place.
Only a devoutly Orthodox Jew could say this with any credibility. Christians can at least explain theologically why we don’t follow Mosaic Law. Liberal Judaism has little connection to the Hebrew Scriptures.


¥ The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with Òfear of G-dÓ. (Isaiah 11:2)
The only charge Jesus’ enemies could make against him was to accuse him of blasphemy for claiming to be God’s Son.


¥ Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership. (Isaiah 11:4)
He certainly challenged the corruption of the ruling authorities.


¥ He will be descended from David HaMelech (Isaiah 11:1) via Solomon (1 Chron. 22:8-10)
See http://www.jewsforjesus.org/library/issues/05-06/genealogy.htm.


¥ Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4).
His kingdom is not yet fully consummated on Earth.


¥ He will be a messenger of peace. (Isaiah 52:7)
He was.


¥ There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8 ).
¥ Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)
¥ Knowledge of G-d will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9).
¥ The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23).
¥ All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19).
¥ Jews will have returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)
¥ The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11).
¥ The Sanhedrin will be re-established. (Isaiah 1:26)
¥ The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55).
¥ The Temple will be rebuilt (Ezekiel 40) resuming many of the suspended mitzvos.
¥ The whole world will worship the One G-d of Israel. (Isaiah 2:17)
He rules now in the hearts of his people, and he will restore perfect harmony to creation when he returns, after all people have had the opportunity to willingly become part of his kingdom.

I believe the temple, Sanhedrin, and homeland are symbolic references to his church, which the New Testament describes as “spiritual Israel.”


Also, belief in the moshiach will never complete somebody. You make it much more important than it is. There is something in the Talmud that says if you are holding a sapling and someone tells you the moshiach has come, plant it first and then go find out. The most important thing to believe in is God. The messiah's just another person, maybe as righteous as Moses. Who knows?
I really don’t care what the Talmud says. The Old Testament is essentially a messianic book, all the way back to God’s promise to Eve that her offspring would crush the serpent’s head.


I am not disparaging their character and motives. I am helping to show what they're really about. On J4J:
http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/j4jlibrary/jewsforjesus.html
General info on "messianic Judaism":
http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/j4jlibrary/messianicjudaism.html
For the sake of balance and fairness, here’s their side of the story:

http://www.jewsforjesus.org/library/issues/10-01/canitbe.htm


I know I've been posting a lot of links. You're mentioning a lot of things. If you mention less, I will probably discuss more in-thread.
I’m obviously not averse to doing the same!

[Sephardic-male]

God didn't cease to be transcendent in the Incarnation. This is admittedly the most mysterious of all Christian teachings, but both the Old and New Testaments consistently affirm that nothing is impossible for God and that his ways are incomprehensible to finite man.



See:

http://www.jewsforjesus.org/answers/qa/karoltrinity.htm

http://www.jewsforjesus.org/library/issues/01-08/jewish.htm

http://www.jewsforjesus.org/library/issues/10-08/trinity.htm



It was founded and continues to be run by Jews who believe that Jesus is their Messiah and who have a passion to share this truth with their brethren.



This looks like a repudiation of the universality of the gospel by a characteristically liberal mainline denomination.



You didn't answer my question. Are Jewish Hindus typically "cut off" from the larger Jewish community in the way that Messianic Jews are?



Only your liberalism allows you to say this. The Hebrew Scriptures are quite "intolerant" of other religions.



What about Yom Kippur, the Most Holy Place, and the scapegoat? There seems to be clear recognition that man is separated from God by sin. Even a righteous prophet like Isaiah realized this (Is. 6:1-7).



Could it be that the Jews have been "exiled" (as in Daniel's time) for their rejection of the Messiah?



Many of the passages you cite here are quoted in the New Testament, particularly the book of Hebrews. I agree that ritual sacrifices are not what ultimately matter to God, but the only reason they are no longer required is because of Jesus' perfect life and sacrifice on our behalf.



Why would such sacrifices be needed in the perfect Messianic age?



Right back at ya:
http://www.journalofbiblicalstudies.org/Issue1/Articles/linkage_between_isaiah_7.htm



See http://www.jewsforjesus.org/answers/qa/Zech1210.htm.



Even if it only means "master," why would David apply it to one of his descendants? And what does it mean that the Messiah would be a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek?

Also, check out http://www.jewsforjesus.org/library/issues/01-09/son.htm.



See http://www.gospelcom.net/rbc/ds/q1208/point3.html. Prophecies often have multiple layers of meaning.



It is true that Isaiah often refers to the nation of Israel as God's servant, but such a reading of Is. 53 just doesn't work. It is implausible to argue that he inexplicably switches to narrating from a Gentile perspective in v. 5-8! This is not only a Herculean leap of logic, it's a departure from historic Jewish interpretation:

http://www.jewsforjesus.org/library/issues/02-05/Isaiah53.htm

http://www.jewsforjesus.org/answers/qa/Isaiah53.htm

http://www.jewsforjesus.org/library/issues/07-09/prophetrabbis.htm

Your link conveniently ignores Is. 49:6, which clearly teaches that the mission of the servant was to restore the people of Israel, as well as the Gentiles. How could Israel restore itself?



The Anointed One is King Agrippa? That seems untenable. When did this idea originate?



So, how do you believe that God will remove the sin of his people in a single day?



How will human nature be changed in order to bring about this perfect kingdom?



Here's an excellent sermon on the parallel passage of Luke:
http://www.communityefc.org/cgi-bin/download.cgi?download=2002/CEFC_2002022400_16kbps_mono.mp3



In other words, we must atone for our own sin? I submit that this is impossible. See Ps. 32:1-5 & 130.



The symbolism of Passover is hard to miss. God executes judgment on the sins of Egypt, but he “passes over” the families of his faithful remnant based on the blood of a sacrificial lamb, though they were by no means worthy of such mercy (Dt. 9).



See http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/bib-docu.html.



Only a devoutly Orthodox Jew could say this with any credibility. Christians can at least explain theologically why we don’t follow Mosaic Law. Liberal Judaism has little connection to the Hebrew Scriptures.



The only charge Jesus’ enemies could make against him was to accuse him of blasphemy for claiming to be God’s Son.



He certainly challenged the corruption of the ruling authorities.



See http://www.jewsforjesus.org/library/issues/05-06/genealogy.htm.



His kingdom is not yet fully consummated on Earth.



He was.



He rules now in the hearts of his people, and he will restore perfect harmony to creation when he returns, after all people have had the opportunity to willingly become part of his kingdom.

I believe the temple, Sanhedrin, and homeland are symbolic references to his church, which the New Testament describes as “spiritual Israel.”



I really don’t care what the Talmud says. The Old Testament is essentially a messianic book, all the way back to God’s promise to Eve that her offspring would crush the serpent’s head.



For the sake of balance and fairness, here’s their side of the story:

http://www.jewsforjesus.org/library/issues/10-01/canitbe.htm



I’m obviously not averse to doing the same!


Judaism version of the Moshiach say nothing about the second coming or dwelling in people's hearts. and jewsfor jesus are a bunch of lying scumbags pretending to be jews and most of them are not jewish and don't come fom jewish families. the moshiach have only one chance

[HuckFinn]

Judaism version of the Moshiach say nothing about the second comingSee http://www.jewsforjesus.org/library/issues/05-08/firstthings.htm.


or dwelling in people's hearts.What about Jer. 31:31-34, Eze. 36:25-27, or the recurring theme throughout Isaiah that he would turn the hearts of Israel (and the Gentiles) toward God?

[Sephardic-male]

it is G-d himself who going to do that Job:


Jer 31
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.



this is not about Jesus

http://jdstone.org/cr/pages/sss_jere.html


and Why do you leave out the rest of Ezekiel 36 which is about the gathering of the exiles back to israel and turning it into a garden something which Jesus failed to do?????????????????????

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. 25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. 28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. 29 I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you. 30 And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen. 31 Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations. 32 Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel. 33 Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded. 34 And the desolate land shall be tilled, whereas it lay desolate in the sight of all that passed by. 35 And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited. 36 Then the heathen that are left round about you shall know that I the LORD build the ruined places, and plant that that was desolate: I the LORD have spoken it, and I will do it. 37 Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will yet for this be enquired of by the house of Israel, to do it for them; I will increase them with men like a flock. 38 As the holy flock, as the flock of Jerusalem in her solemn feasts; so shall the waste cities be filled with flocks of men: and they shall know that I am the LORD.


and during this time the whole world will know the true creator G-d and Israel currently is in a bad shape so this has not come to past yet

[HuckFinn]

God is still in the process of renewing hearts and drawing people to faith in Jesus. That must be completed before this present evil order is overthrown by the Messianic kingdom (Mt. 13:24-30).

[the dauer]

You didn't answer my question. Are Jewish Hindus typically "cut off" from the larger Jewish community in the way that Messianic Jews are?

It's not a matter of a decision Jews make. They become kareit. Yes, it applies to Jews who become Hindus too.


Only your liberalism allows you to say this. The Hebrew Scriptures are quite "intolerant" of other religions.

Not true. Judaism does not try to make other religions Jews. It cares about the way Jews treat each other and the way they treat non-Jews, but it's not interested in making other people Jewish. It makes it possible, but it's not a priority. The righteous of all nations have a place in the world to come. Everybody on this planet has a reason for being, but the Jewish reason is traditionally linked to the mitzvot. You can attack my liberalism all you want, but perhaps before you do you should learn a little more about what the traditional position is. Try Jewfaq for that information.



Many of the passages you cite here are quoted in the New Testament, particularly the book of Hebrews. I agree that ritual sacrifices are not what ultimately matter to God, but the only reason they are no longer required is because of Jesus' perfect life and sacrifice on our behalf.

Can you prove this using only the Tanakh, and by Tanakh I mean the Hebrew or direct translations from the Hebrew?



Why would such sacrifices be needed in the perfect Messianic age?

According to the traditional position the only qorbanot will be for unintentional things.


The Anointed One is King Agrippa? That seems untenable. When did this idea originate?

With Daniel. Daniel is not one of the books of the prophets in the Jewish canon. It was moved by the Church to support its aims.


So, how do you believe that God will remove the sin of his people in a single day?

Me personally? My views are in conflict with the traditional ones on the issue of the moshiach as well as a couple other things. Think for a moment though, about what you just asked. How does God accomplish anything? He is God!


The symbolism of Passover is hard to miss. God executes judgment on the sins of Egypt, but he Òpasses overÓ the families of his faithful remnant based on the blood of a sacrificial lamb, though they were by no means worthy of such mercy (Dt. 9).

You're working in the wrong direction. The idea of the paschal lamb existed first. Christianity chose to use older symbols to make a statement after. Also, there is nothing that suggests the messiah will die for our sins.

Only a devoutly Orthodox Jew could say this with any credibility. Christians can at least explain theologically why we donÕt follow Mosaic Law. Liberal Judaism has little connection to the Hebrew Scriptures.

That entire statement is falacious. Liberal Judaism is not a movement. Conservative Judaism follows all of the mitzvot, it just interprets some differently than the Orthodox. The reform took a more radical stance and originally said only the moral ones stood, but then it changed its tune and is now coming back to traditional practice. If you equate liberal with secular, then you are correct because they tend not to practice much of anything, but liberal does not mean secular and all religious Jews follow the mitzvot or have a theological reason for not following some of them.

I don't need to be orthodox to criticize you for calling the mitzvot a burden or for accusing the Messianics of being a wolf in sheep's clothing. I am a returner and you have no authority to decide which Jews have credibility and which do not.

I have read that in interfaith dialogue we must not make uneducated assumptions about the other person. You seem to know nothing about Judaism. Try to ask questions instead of making assumptions.



The only charge JesusÕ enemies could make against him was to accuse him of blasphemy for claiming to be GodÕs Son.

And of being a false prophet by suggesting they worship a God different than the one they had known, which would entitle him to the death penalty, which would stand even if he gave signs. That's the first that comes to my mind.


He certainly challenged the corruption of the ruling authorities.

How do you know? The Gospels are biased and do not agree with other histories.


He rules now in the hearts of his people, and he will restore perfect harmony to creation when he returns, after all people have had the opportunity to willingly become part of his kingdom.

Do you realize that probably everyone on the earth has had that opportunity and most have said, "no thank you. We're happy worshipping God in our own way."?


I believe the temple, Sanhedrin, and homeland are symbolic references to his church, which the New Testament describes as Òspiritual Israel.Ó

You're entitled to your beliefs, and I'm pleased you recognize that is all they are.




IÕm obviously not averse to doing the same!

I was actually suggesting we'd get along better without it.

Dauer

[Sephardic-male]

God is still in the process of renewing hearts and drawing people to faith in Jesus. That must be completed before this present evil order is overthrown by the Messianic kingdom (Mt. 13:24-30).


WHERE IN THOSE SCRIPTURES I POSTED YOU SEE JESUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!????

Is it not I, the Lord, and there are no other gods besides Me, a just and saving God there is not besides Me. 22. Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth, for I am God, and there is no other. (Isaiah 45:21-22)

Do not trust in princes, in the son of men, who has no salvation. (Psalms 146:3)


“God is not a man that He should lie, nor is He a mortal that He should relent…” (Numbers 23:19 (Judaica Press Complete Tanakh)

the Strength of Israel will neither lie nor repent, forHe is not a man to repent." (1 Samuel 15:29)
“For He [God] is not man like me,” (Job 9:32)

“…for I am God and not a man.”(Hosea 11:9)




God’s Hebrew Bible also says that God does not change His mind:

“You have been shown, in order to know that the Lord He is God; there is none else besides Him.From the heavens, He let you hear His voice to instruct you, and upon the earth He showed you His great fire, and you heard His words out of the midst of the fire” (Deuteronomy 4:35-36)

And you shall know this day and consider it in your heart, that the Lord He is God in heaven above, and upon the earth below; there is none else. (Deuteronomy 4:39)

“For I, the Lord, have not changed; and you, the sons of Jacob, have not reached the end.” (Malachi 3:6)


God says the Jews are His son.

“My son, My firstborn is Israel..." (Exodus 4:22)

“Thus says HaShem. Israel is My son, My firstborn” (Deuteronomy 4:22)

“When Israel was I child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called My son” (Hosea 11:1)

”He (Solomon) shall be a son to Me [G-d], and I a Father to him” (1 Chr 22:10)

He has said to me "You (David) are My son. Today I have begotten you. (Psalm 2:7)

And God repeated “I, too, will make him (David) a firstborn, supreme over the earth’s kings” (Psalms 89:27-28)

[HuckFinn]

Not true. Judaism does not try to make other religions Jews. It cares about the way Jews treat each other and the way they treat non-Jews, but it's not interested in making other people Jewish. It makes it possible, but it's not a priority. The righteous of all nations have a place in the world to come. Everybody on this planet has a reason for being, but the Jewish reason is traditionally linked to the mitzvot. You can attack my liberalism all you want, but perhaps before you do you should learn a little more about what the traditional position is. Try Jewfaq for that information.The Old Testament is filled with accounts of Yahveh bringing judgment upon false gods and those who worship them. The repeatedly stated purpose of Yahveh's actions in human history is that all would know that he alone is God.


According to the traditional position the only qorbanot will be for unintentional things.So man will not be entirely perfected, but he will no longer willfully sin? How will this transformation of human nature be achieved?


With Daniel. Daniel is not one of the books of the prophets in the Jewish canon. It was moved by the Church to support its aims.To my knowledge, it is listed as canonical by both Josephus and Philo. Can you show me (a) evidence that it was not and (b) ancient commentaries that identify the Anointed One of chapter 9 as King Agrippa rather than the Messiah?


You're working in the wrong direction. The idea of the paschal lamb existed first. Christianity chose to use older symbols to make a statement after. Also, there is nothing that suggests the messiah will die for our sins.I'm saying that it's a typology that fits perfectly with Christian theology. What do you believe is the significance of the paschal lamb?


That entire statement is falacious. Liberal Judaism is not a movement. Conservative Judaism follows all of the mitzvot, it just interprets some differently than the Orthodox. The reform took a more radical stance and originally said only the moral ones stood, but then it changed its tune and is now coming back to traditional practice. If you equate liberal with secular, then you are correct because they tend not to practice much of anything, but liberal does not mean secular and all religious Jews follow the mitzvot or have a theological reason for not following some of them.It seems to me that the covenantal nature of the Mosaic Law precludes it from being abrogated by men; it must be superceded by God himself.


I don't need to be orthodox to criticize you for calling the mitzvot a burdenI suspect that many modern Jews would agree with me, and that this explains why it is no longer strictly followed.


or for accusing the Messianics of being a wolf in sheep's clothing.I haven't done this; you have. I suppose this is nothing new; the same charge was leveled against Jesus' first Jewish followers.


I am a returner and you have no authority to decide which Jews have credibility and which do not.

I have read that in interfaith dialogue we must not make uneducated assumptions about the other person. You seem to know nothing about Judaism. Try to ask questions instead of making assumptions.I don't claim to know much about Rabbinical Judaism, but I am quite familiar with biblical teaching. It is not highly regarded by most Jews I've met, even those who consider themselves religious. (The same is true of most mainline Protestants I've known.)


And of being a false prophet by suggesting they worship a God different than the one they had known, which would entitle him to the death penalty, which would stand even if he gave signs. That's the first that comes to my mind.You can only come to this conclusion if you've ruled out the possibility that his claims were true. When I look at his life and his teaching, nothing leads me to believe that he was a charlatan.


How do you know? The Gospels are biased and do not agree with other histories.I provided you a link that challenges this assertion, but you ignored it.


Do you realize that probably everyone on the earth has had that opportunity and most have said, "no thank you. We're happy worshipping God in our own way."?Only God himself can know when his full remant has come into the fold.


WHERE IN THOSE SCRIPTURES I POSTED YOU SEE JESUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!????

Is it not I, the Lord, and there are no other gods besides Me, a just and saving God there is not besides Me. 22. Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth, for I am God, and there is no other. (Isaiah 45:21-22)

Do not trust in princes, in the son of men, who has no salvation. (Psalms 146:3)


“God is not a man that He should lie, nor is He a mortal that He should relent…” (Numbers 23:19 (Judaica Press Complete Tanakh)

the Strength of Israel will neither lie nor repent, forHe is not a manto repent." (1 Samuel 15:29)
“For He [God] is not man like me,”(Job 9:32)

“…for I am God and not a man.”(Hosea 11:9)
Christians don't believe that God is a mere man. We believe that he took on human flesh in order to fully reveal himself to us, to bear the justly deserved punishment for our sins, and to triumph over death itself.



God’s Hebrew Bible also says that God does not change His mind:

“You have been shown, in order to know that the Lord He is God; there is none else besides Him.From the heavens, He let you hear His voice to instruct you, and upon the earth He showed you His great fire, and you heard His words out of the midst of the fire” (Deuteronomy 4:35-36)

And you shall know this day and consider it in your heart, that the Lord He is God in heaven above, and upon the earth below; there is none else.(Deuteronomy 4:39)

“For I, the Lord, have not changed; and you, the sons of Jacob, have not reached the end.” (Malachi 3:6)
We worship one God whose nature and character are unchanging.




God says the Jews are His son.

“My son, My firstborn is Israel..." (Exodus 4:22)

“Thus says HaShem. Israel is My son, My firstborn” (Deuteronomy 4:22)

“When Israel was I child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called My son” (Hosea 11:1)All of God's people are his children, but we are adopted. Jesus is eternally begotten. Read Jn. 1:1-18 & Heb. 1:3, and think about the Son as the word of God and the radiance of his glory.



”He (Solomon) shall be a son to Me [G-d], and I a Father to him” (1 Chr 22:10)

He has said to me "You (David) are My son. Today I have begotten you. (Psalm 2:7)

And God repeated “I, too, will make him (David) a firstborn, supreme over the earth’s kings” (Psalms 89:27-28)
These passages clearly have Messianic overtones. Obviously, David himself is not supreme over the earth's kings.

What do you make of Ps. 45:6, where this archetypal king is addressed as God?

[Sephardic-male]

obviously huckfinn seems to have a reading problem NON OF THOSE VERS4ES ABOUT THE G-D'S SON IS ISRAEL IS PROPHETIC and Pslams about is about David's life and his love for G-d not a freaking prophetic book and here is the verses that missionaries ignore


According to the Hebrew Bible, the person who sins is the one who will die. Even using the Christian bible, it says the same thing―no one can die for the sins of another!

Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book. Exodus 32:32-33 (KJV)

The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin. Deuteronomy 24:16 (KJV)

Every man will die for his own sin!

In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge. Jeremiah 31:29-30 (KJV)

Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. Ezekiel 18:4 (KJV)

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. Ezekiel 18:20 (KJV) Repeats Verse 4 in Ezekiel 18. (above)

Then Ezekiel sums it up:

Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. Ezekiel 18:27-28 (KJV)


back to PS 45

Psalm 45 from NIV xtian bible

For the director of music. To the tune of "Lilies." Of the Sons of Korah. A maskil. A wedding song. [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=45&version=31#fen-NIV-14599a)]

1 My heart is stirred by a noble theme


as I recite my verses for the king;

my tongue is the pen of a skillful writer.



2 You are the most excellent of men

and your lips have been anointed with grace,

since God has blessed you forever.

3 Gird your sword upon your side, O mighty one;

clothe yourself with splendor and majesty.

4 In your majesty ride forth victoriously

in behalf of truth, humility and righteousness;

let your right hand display awesome deeds.

5 Let your sharp arrows pierce the hearts of the king's enemies;

let the nations fall beneath your feet.

6 Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;

a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.

7 You love righteousness and hate wickedness;

therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions

by anointing you with the oil of joy.

8 All your robes are fragrant with myrrh and aloes and cassia;

from palaces adorned with ivory

the music of the strings makes you glad.

9 Daughters of kings are among your honored women;

at your right hand is the royal bride in gold of Ophir.



10 Listen, O daughter, consider and give ear:

Forget your people and your father's house.

11 The king is enthralled by your beauty;

honor him, for he is your lord.

12 The Daughter of Tyre will come with a gift, [b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=45&version=31#fen-NIV-14610b)]

men of wealth will seek your favor.



13 All glorious is the princess within her chamber ;

her gown is interwoven with gold.

14 In embroidered garments she is led to the king;

her virgin companions follow her

and are brought to you.

15 They are led in with joy and gladness;

they enter the palace of the king.



16 Your sons will take the place of your fathers;

you will make them princes throughout the land.

17 I will perpetuate your memory through all generations;

therefore the nations will praise you for ever and ever.



Footnotes: <LI id=fen-NIV-14599a>Psalm 45:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=45&version=31#en-NIV-14599) Title: Probably a literary or musical term
Psalm 45:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=45&version=31#en-NIV-14610) Or A Tyrian robe is among the gifts

Ps 45 is a song

[the dauer]

The Old Testament is filled with accounts of Hashem bringing judgment upon false gods and those who worship them. The repeatedly stated purpose of Yahveh's actions in human history is that all would know that he alone is God.

The judgement is brought upont the Jewish people for turning to other gods, not upon other nations who worship other gods. The other nations are accused because of their practices related to their religions, such as child sacrifice. Even the messianic ideal is only that Israel will be at peace with the other nations, not that everyone will be Jewish.


So man will not be entirely perfected, but he will no longer willfully sin? How will this transformation of human nature be achieved?

Pretty much. According to tradition we'll still be able to think for ourselves, we'll just no longer stray from the mitzvot. The mitzvot will be written on our hearts. But someone still might accidentally do something because nobody's perfect.


To my knowledge, it is listed as canonical by both Josephus and Philo. Can you show me (a) evidence that it was not and (b) ancient commentaries that identify the Anointed One of chapter 9 as King Agrippa rather than the Messiah?

It is canonical, just in writings and not prophets.


W. Sibley Towner writes: "Daniel is one of the few OT books that can be given a fairly firm date. In the form in which we have it (perhaps without the additions of 12:11, 12), the book must have been given its final form some time in the years 167-164 B.C. This dating is based upon two assumptions: first, that the authors lived at the later end of the historical surveys that characterize Daniel 7-12; and second, that prophecy is accurate only when it is given after the fact, whereas predictions about the future tend to run astray. Based upon these assumptions, the references to the desecration of the Temple and the 'abomination that makes desolate' in 8:9-12; 9:27; and 11:31 must refer to events known to the author. The best candidates for the historical referents of these events are the desecration of the Temple in Jerusalem and the erection in it of a pagan altar in the autumn of 167 B.C. by Antiochus IV Epiphanes. The inaccurate description of the end of Antiochus' reign and his death in 11:40-45, on the other hand, suggests that the author did not know of those events, which occurred late in 164 or early in 163 B.C. The roots of the hagiographa (idealizing stories) about Daniel and his friends in chaps. 1-6 may date to an earlier time, but the entire work was given its final shape in 164 B.C." (Harper's Bible Commentary, p. 696)

http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/daniel.html


There's much more on that page from various scholars.

I'm saying that it's a typology that fits perfectly with Christian theology. What do you believe is the significance of the paschal lamb?

It's to remember that God passed over, as the name implies, taking the Egyptians and sparing the Israelites.


It seems to me that the covenantal nature of the Mosaic Law precludes it from being abrogated by men; it must be superceded by God himself.

According to traditional Judaism, the written and oral Torahs were recieved at Sinai and the oral Torah gives the tools for understanding the mitzvot based on new circumstances. Conservative Judaism is lenient in rulings and sometimes takes History into account. Orthodox is more strict and only uses the tools outlined in the Talmud for dissemination of new understandings.

I don't believe God ever interferes with the laws of physics or that any text is inherently divine, that they are only sacred because we consider them that way. I view Judaism as an evolving religion and tend to agree with the reconstructionists that tradition has a vote, but not a veto. But I am a theist, panentheist, which is an acceptable variant of monotheism in Judaism. I view the mitzvot as a way of spreading holiness into all aspects of life.


I suspect that many modern Jews would agree with me, and that this explains why it is no longer strictly followed.

Some modern Jews, having grown up in a Christian country, have adopted Christian ideas without realizing it. That's why some may believe there's a hell, even though there's no such thing in Judaism. It's partly a product of some of the immigrants to the US who just wanted to assimilate. Their children ended up with very little education and that's how it goes.

There are other Jews who reject them because they disagree with the Historical basis for particular mitzvot, or who just grew up in unobservant homes and never began to look into their heritage. However, there are observant Jews who are not Orthodox, plenty.


I haven't done this; you have. I suppose this is nothing new; the same charge was leveled against Jesus' first Jewish followers.

Yes I did. I suppose what I said was confusing. Of course it was levelled against them. From the perspective of the Jews they were wolves in sheep's clothing! All of those Jews were becoming idolators and rendering themselves kareit. That's the penalty for idolatry.


I don't claim to know much about Rabbinical Judaism, but I am quite familiar with biblical teaching. It is not highly regarded by most Jews I've met, even those who consider themselves religious. (The same is true of most mainline Protestants I've known.)

You have probably met Reform Jews. They tend to care much less about Judaism. Biblical teaching is not enough to understand Judaism because the Oral Torah is absent in it. Also, your interpretations of the bible may be very different from a Jewish one. We don't have original sin, for example. We consider that the righteous deed of our ancestors reflect on us, and not their sins, as appeals are made biblically, naming ancestors as a reason. I don't know how someone could consider themself religious and not be concerned with the mitzvot. I don't know how else to define a religious Jew.


You can only come to this conclusion if you've ruled out the possibility that his claims were true. When I look at his life and his teaching, nothing leads me to believe that he was a charlatan.

I think you read me wrong. He suggested that God was different than they had always known God to be. This makes him a false prophet, and the kind that must be killed. And I know you will challenge this so I will also pose a question: How are the Israelites supposed to know if the God being presented is a God they did not know?


I provided you a link that challenges this assertion, but you ignored it.

You're right, I did. I can imagine it borrows from texts like Josephus among a few others. So then I would naturally post a link showing that these texts had been tampered with and we'd still both leave with the same opinions. Right?


I'm going to suggest again that you at least skim some of the material here:

http://www.jewfaq.org/

If you know the Jewish positions it will help to strengthen your position. It'll mean that you're arguing against the Jewish position instead of what you believe it to be. Naturally, my position varies a little, but my general world-view is still a very Jewish one. And I have no problem speaking for a more traditional perspective if I know the answers.

I also wanted to know what movement you belong to. I notice you posting a lot of messianic material but I don't want to make assumptions. I'd like to know so I can get a clearer perspective on your position. Thanks.

Dauer

[HuckFinn]

The judgement is brought upont the Jewish people for turning to other gods, not upon other nations who worship other gods. The other nations are accused because of their practices related to their religions, such as child sacrifice.No. There are countless passages condeming the folly of pagan beliefs, not just practices. In the Exodus account, for example, God repeatedly says that he's bringing judgment on Egypt and its gods. Again, the stated purpose is that they would know that he alone is God.


Even the messianic ideal is only that Israel will be at peace with the other nations, not that everyone will be Jewish.The Messianic ideal is that people from all nations would bow to the God of Israel.


There's much more on that page from various scholars.I have no use for "scholarship" based on the a priori assumption that prophecy cannot occur.


It's to remember that God passed over, as the name implies, taking the Egyptians and sparing the Israelites.What's the purpose of the lamb?


I don't believe God ever interferes with the laws of physics or that any text is inherently divine, that they are only sacred because we consider them that way. I view Judaism as an evolving religion and tend to agree with the reconstructionists that tradition has a vote, but not a veto. But I am a theist, panentheist, which is an acceptable variant of monotheism in Judaism. I view the mitzvot as a way of spreading holiness into all aspects of life.You sound more like a deist, which is clearly at odds with your Scripture.


Some modern Jews, having grown up in a Christian country, have adopted Christian ideas without realizing it. That's why some may believe there's a hell, even though there's no such thing in Judaism.Of course, you can only say that by conveniently deleting certain key verses from Dan. 12, like the "scholar" you quote previously . . .


I think you read me wrong. He suggested that God was different than they had always known God to be. This makes him a false prophet, and the kind that must be killed. And I know you will challenge this so I will also pose a question: How are the Israelites supposed to know if the God being presented is a God they did not know?By their Scriptures, of course. When I read Jesus' debates with the religious leaders of his day, I think that he amply refuted their arguments.


You're right, I did. I can imagine it borrows from texts like Josephus among a few others. So then I would naturally post a link showing that these texts had been tampered with and we'd still both leave with the same opinions. Right?I would at least consider the evidence you provide.

Let me at least offer this textual evidence for an early writing of Luke's Gospel. It's a prelude to the book of Acts, which ends abruptly with Paul on trial in Rome, strongly indicating that it was written before this trial had concluded. Moreover, Paul quotes Lk. 10:7 as Scripture in 1 Tim. 5:18.


I also wanted to know what movement you belong to. I notice you posting a lot of messianic material but I don't want to make assumptions. I'd like to know so I can get a clearer perspective on your position. Thanks.I don't know what you mean by "movement," but I don't pretend to have any Jewish lineage. I just have great admiration for Messianic Jews, especially considering the intense opposition they face from other Jews and liberal Christians.

[the dauer]

No. There are countless passages condeming the folly of pagan beliefs, not just practices. In the Exodus account, for example, God repeatedly says that he's bringing judgment on Egypt and its gods. Again, the stated purpose is that they would know that he alone is God.

Can you cite the source? I do believe it was to show the Israelites that he was to be their only God.


The Messianic ideal is that people from all nations would bow to the God of Israel.

There are still supposed to be other nations, and there is no suggestion that we go out and do this work ourselves. It is for the time of the moshiach.


I have no use for "scholarship" based on the a priori assumption that prophecy cannot occur.[/quote[

And I have no use for scholarship based on the a priori assumption that Jesus did live and did die on the cross for the sins of mankind. I guess we're even.


[quote]What's the purpose of the lamb?

It was a qorban, a coming close to God. Not all qorbanot were related to sin. Some of them were to celebrate. But I suppose you can understand how it would work for sin. Someone did something that would require a qorban, then they go to the Temple where there's this whole big ceremony, and in their intimate encounter, their coming-close, there is nothing they can do but fully accept responsibility for what they have done and then let it go.


You sound more like a deist, which is clearly at odds with your Scripture.

a) How is deism so at odds with Judaism?

b) I'm not a deist. I believe as per panentheism that God is immanent and transcendant and I also believe that sometimes God reaches out to people and sometimes we reach out to God. I just believe that this encounter with God is entirely experiential and anything beyond the experience is our own interpretation of the Divine.l I also believe strongly in the possibility of a divine plan.


Of course, you can only say that by conveniently deleting certain key verses from Dan. 12, like the "scholar" you quote previously . . .

According to Jewish tradition Gehenna is temporary, after which the souls of the wicked are either mercifully extinguished or the transformed person is allowed to Gan Eden. This is without getting into gilgul. I'm not very versed so I'm not sure how that verse is understood but maybe someone else knows.


By their Scriptures, of course. When I read Jesus' debates with the religious leaders of his day, I think that he amply refuted their arguments.

Give some examples and we can take a look. But his arguements have nothing to do with the nature of the Divine. Also, even if he could twist scripture to show it was possible for him to be a part of God distinct from everything else, if they did not recognize him as such then clearly he wasn't. It's based on the perception of the people, what they know about God's nature.


Let me at least offer this textual evidence for an early writing of Luke's Gospel. It's a prelude to the book of Acts, which ends abruptly with Paul on trial in Rome, strongly indicating that it was written before this trial had concluded. Moreover, Paul quotes Lk. 10:7 as Scripture in 1 Tim. 5:18.

Did you make a typo? I don't see it.


I don't know what you mean by "movement," but I don't pretend to have any Jewish lineage. I just have great admiration for Messianic Jews, especially considering the intense opposition they face from other Jews and liberal Christians.

I didn't mean to imply that. I just wanted to know what type of Christian you are. Whether you're a messianic Jew or a baptist, you're still a Christian. This is a more objective source on J4J:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews_for_Jesus

So I'm really just asking with what group of Christians you consider yourself affiliated.

Dauer

[vinceneilsgirl]

Whether you're a messianic Jew or a baptist, you're still a Christian. This is a more objective source on J4J:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews_for_Jesus

So I'm really just asking with what group of Christians you consider yourself affiliated.

Dauer
Exactly! Messianic Jews are NOT Jewish!

[vinceneilsgirl]

I also want to say that I find J4J's mission statement to be very unnerving...



"Their official mission statement is "to make the messiahship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messiah) of Jesus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus) an unavoidable issue to our Jewish people worldwide," and the organization claims to be "one of the most extensive evangelistic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelical) outreaches to Jewish people in the world today." "

[HuckFinn]

Can you cite the source? I do believe it was to show the Israelites that he was to be their only God.Here are just a few:



Ex. 7:5,17; 8:10; 9:14-16; 11:12; 14:4,18


There are still supposed to be other nations, and there is no suggestion that we go out and do this work ourselves. It is for the time of the moshiach.Well, Christians believe that he has graciously chosen to include us in this work of his.


And I have no use for scholarship based on the a priori assumption that Jesus did live and did die on the cross for the sins of mankind. I guess we're even.Many Christian scholars began as skeptics and changed their minds through the course of their research.


It was a qorban, a coming close to God. Not all qorbanot were related to sin. Some of them were to celebrate. But I suppose you can understand how it would work for sin. Someone did something that would require a qorban, then they go to the Temple where there's this whole big ceremony, and in their intimate encounter, their coming-close, there is nothing they can do but fully accept responsibility for what they have done and then let it go.The blood of the passover lamb is clearly tied to escaping the wrath of God.


a) How is deism so at odds with Judaism?The Bible is a series of accounts of God's dramatic interventions in natural and human affairs.


b) I'm not a deist. I believe as per panentheism that God is immanent and transcendant and I also believe that sometimes God reaches out to people and sometimes we reach out to God. I just believe that this encounter with God is entirely experiential and anything beyond the experience is our own interpretation of the Divine.l I also believe strongly in the possibility of a divine plan.By experiential, do you mean subjective?


According to Jewish tradition Gehenna is temporary, after which the souls of the wicked are either mercifully extinguished or the transformed person is allowed to Gan Eden.So you believe in hell, but deny that it is eternal?


This is without getting into gilgul.Huh?


I'm not very versed so I'm not sure how that verse is understood but maybe someone else knows."Everlasting shame and contempt" seems pretty straightforward.


Give some examples and we can take a look.I'm sure you're familiar with the numerous Gospel accounts of Jesus' confrontations with religious leaders. You apparently don't believe them, though, so I won't reproduce them here.


But his arguements have nothing to do with the nature of the Divine.I obviously disagree.


Also, even if he could twist scripture to show it was possible for him to be a part of God distinct from everything else,He didn't claim to be "a part of" God.


if they did not recognize him as such then clearly he wasn't. It's based on the perception of the people, what they know about God's nature.Is it possible that they were willfully blind to God's truth, like their forefathers who persecuted the prophets?


Did you make a typo? I don't see it.For the Scripture says, "You shall not muzzle the ox while he is threshing," and "The laborer is worthy of his wages." (1 Tim. 5:18)

The latter is a direct quotation of Lk. 10:7.


Whether you're a messianic Jew or a baptist, you're still a Christian.You know that "Christ" is a Greek rendition of "Messiah," which is a thoroughly Jewish concept.


So I'm really just asking with what group of Christians you consider yourself affiliated.I'm a member of a non-denominational evangelical congregation.

[the dauer]

Here are just a few:



Ex. 7:5,17; 8:10; 9:14-16; 11:12; 14:4,18



I still don't see how you get from there to it being important to go out and tell the nations who God is. It's not one of the 613 Mitzvot. While it may be emphasized in the new testament, there is nothing telling the people to go out and do this in the Tanakh.


Many Christian scholars began as skeptics and changed their minds through the course of their research.

Yes, and the same happens to skeptics studying Islam. What's your point?


The blood of the passover lamb is clearly tied to escaping the wrath of God.

How? God never said He had it in for them. They knew they would be spared. The target was the Egyptians from the begining. On the other hand, the Israelites had been slaves living in poor conditions. Now they were free and were being ordered, each family would have their own lamb to offer up and eat. They were told to gorge themselves because they were hungry, having come out of bondage.


The Bible is a series of accounts of God's dramatic interventions in natural and human affairs.

So what does that have to do with being deist? Where does it say either that the Tanakh must be taken literally or that any of it must be believed at all? This is the 613 mitzvot. You can check and tell me how many have to do with belief and of those which have to do with believing God interferes with the laws of physics.

http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm


By experiential, do you mean subjective?

Sorta. Not really. As I said, I believe that anything that comes from that experience, any information, has been filtered by the human mind. That's not what I'm interested in as that will be subjective and is why I believe there are so many different religions. I'm talking more about the mystical experience of Oneness, which I value for the experience and not the information a person brings from it. The information is like any other information and subject to human error. I do believe, however, that the experience can be transformative for the individual.


So you believe in hell, but deny that it is eternal?

Not really. You believe in Gehenna but say that it is forever and there is no mercy for a sinner. It's a matter of perspective. Gehenna is like a forge. It allows someone the opportunity to transform themselves and still go to Gan Eden. Only the truly wicked cannot transform, and therefore God must in His mercy save them from their suffering.


Huh?[/quote[

Transmigration. It's part of the Jewish mystical tradition.


[quote]"Everlasting shame and contempt" seems pretty straightforward.

I believe I do remember what is said of this, although I could be wrong, which is that this is from our perspective. It seems like an eternity in gehenna.


I'm sure you're familiar with the numerous Gospel accounts of Jesus' confrontations with religious leaders. You apparently don't believe them, though, so I won't reproduce them here.

Okay. Do you know who the pharisees were?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharisees


He didn't claim to be "a part of" God.

This seems like semantics to me because either way, if he claimed a special divinity, any part in a godhead, then his was not the God they knew.


Is it possible that they were willfully blind to God's truth, like their forefathers who persecuted the prophets?

The pharisees claim the prophets as their spiritual ancestors. It's made clear in Chapter 1 of Pirkei Avot. So your statement makes no sense to me. These are the relevant passages --the statements of individuals are not concrete laws or values but rather the ideas of particular individuals:


1. Moses received the Torah from Sinai and gave it over to Joshua. Joshua gave it over to the Elders, the Elders to the Prophets, and the Prophets gave it over to the Men of the Great Assembly. They [the Men of the Great Assembly] would always say these three things: Be cautious in judgement. Establish many pupils. And make a safety fence around the Torah.


2. Shimon the Righteous was among the last surviving members of the Great assembly. He would say: The world stands on three things: Torah, the service of G-d, and deeds of kindness.


3. Antignos of Socho received the tradition from Shimon the Righteous. He would say: Do not be as slaves, who serve their master for the sake of reward. Rather, be as slaves who serve their master not for the sake of reward. And the fear of Heaven should be upon you.


4. Yossei the son of Yoezer of Tzreidah, and Yossei the son of Yochanan of Jerusalem, received the tradition from them. Yossei the son of Yoezer of Tzreidah would say: Let your home be a meeting place for the wise; dust yourself in the soil of their feet, and drink thirstily of their words.


5. Yossei the son of Yochanan of Jerusalem would say: Let your home be wide open, and let the poor be members of your household. And do not engage in excessive conversation with a woman. This is said even regarding one's own wife--how much more so regarding the wife of another. Hence, the sages said: One who excessively converses with a woman causes evil to himself, neglects the study of Torah, and, in the end, inherits purgatory.


6. Joshua the son of Perachia and Nitai the Arbelite received from them. Joshua the son of Perachia would say: Assume for yourself a master, acquire for yourself a friend, and judge every man to the side of merit.


7. Nitai the Arbelite would say: Distance yourself from a bad neighbor, do not cleave to a wicked person, and do not abandon belief in retribution.


8. Judah the son of Tabbai and Shimon the son of Shotach received from them. Judah the son of Tabbai would say: When sitting in judgement, do not act as a counselor-at-law. When the litigants stand before you, consider them both guilty; and when they leave your courtroom, having accepted the judgement, regard them as equally righteous.


9. Shimon the son of Shotach would say: Increasingly cross-examine the witnesses. Be careful with your words, lest they learn from them how to lie.


10. Shmaayah and Avtalyon received from them. Shmaayah would say: Love work, loath mastery over others, and avoid intimacy with the government.


11. Avtalyon would say: Scholars, be careful with your words. For you may be exiled to a place inhabited by evil elements [who will distort your words to suit their negative purposes]. The disciples who come after you will then drink of these evil waters and be destroyed, and the Name of Heaven will be desecrated.


12. Hillel and Shammai received from them. Hillel would say: Be of the disciples of Aaron--a lover of peace, a pursuer of peace, one who loves the creatures and draws them close to Torah.


13. He would also say: One who advances his name, destroys his name. One who does not increase, diminishes. One who does not learn is deserving of death. And one who make personal use of the crown of Torah shall perish.


14. He would also say: If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?


15. Shammai would say: Make your Torah study a permanent fixture of your life. Say little and do much. And receive every man with a pleasant countenance.


16. Rabban Gamliel would say: Assume for yourself a master; stay away from doubt; and do not accustom yourself to tithe by estimation.


17. His son, Shimon, would say: All my life I have been raised among the wise, and I have found nothing better for the body than silence. The essential thing is not study, but deed. And one who speaks excessively brings on sin.


18. Rabbi Shimon the son of Gamliel would say: By three things is the world sustained: law, truth and peace. As is stated (Zachariah 8:16), "Truth, and a judgement of peace, you should administer at your [city] gates.''

http://www1.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=2165


And it continues.

For the Scripture says, "You shall not muzzle the ox while he is threshing," and "The laborer is worthy of his wages." (1 Tim. 5:18)

The latter is a direct quotation of Lk. 10:7.

Okay. That's really over my head so I'm not going to bother trying to debate it.


You know that "Christ" is a Greek rendition of "Messiah," which is a thoroughly Jewish concept.

I thought that over this conversation you would have realized that the Jewish idea of moshiach has nothing to do with the Christian idea of Christ. Thursday has nothing to do with Thor anymore either. Your logic is flaud. That, and the fact that J4J is a Christian evangelical organization.


I'm a member of a non-denominational evangelical congregation.

Yay non-denominationalism!

Dauer

[HuckFinn]

I still don't see how you get from there to it being important to go out and tell the nations who God is. It's not one of the 613 Mitzvot. While it may be emphasized in the new testament, there is nothing telling the people to go out and do this in the Tanakh.My point is that bringing knowledge of and glory to himself throughout all nations is a central purpose of God's redemptive acts in human history, according to the Bible. This is clear even in the calling of Abraham, in which he is promised that through his "seed" (singular, not plural, as Paul emphasizes) all nations would be blessed.


Yes, and the same happens to skeptics studying Islam. What's your point?My point is that you can't automatically dismiss Christian scholars as having a biased agenda, when many have come to their views through honest research, even being initially skeptical toward Christianity.


How? God never said He had it in for them. They knew they would be spared. The target was the Egyptians from the begining. On the other hand, the Israelites had been slaves living in poor conditions. Now they were free and were being ordered, each family would have their own lamb to offer up and eat. They were told to gorge themselves because they were hungry, having come out of bondage.Again, see Dt. 9, and compare it with Rom. 9.


So what does that have to do with being deist? Where does it say either that the Tanakh must be taken literally or that any of it must be believed at all? This is the 613 mitzvot. You can check and tell me how many have to do with belief and of those which have to do with believing God interferes with the laws of physics.How would you define the terms "miracle" or "supernatural," and how do you explain the countless extraordinary events recorded throughout your Scriptures? Do you dismiss them all as "figurative" accounts?


Sorta. Not really. As I said, I believe that anything that comes from that experience, any information, has been filtered by the human mind. That's not what I'm interested in as that will be subjective and is why I believe there are so many different religions. I'm talking more about the mystical experience of Oneness, which I value for the experience and not the information a person brings from it. The information is like any other information and subject to human error. I do believe, however, that the experience can be transformative for the individual.You sound much more like a Hindu than a Jew. Judaism (per Scripture) is founded upon propositional revelation.


This seems like semantics to me because either way, if he claimed a special divinity, any part in a godhead, then his was not the God they knew.I would argue that they misread their own Scripture.


The pharisees claim the prophets as their spiritual ancestors.They made this claim to Jesus, and he rebuked them as children of Satan.


I thought that over this conversation you would have realized that the Jewish idea of moshiach has nothing to do with the Christian idea of Christ.I contend that modern Judaism has a very truncated view of Messiah, and I'm very unimpressed with its tenuous explanations of several key prophetic texts. Anyway, this all began as an intra-Jewish debate ~2000 years ago, and it largely remains so to this day.

[the dauer]

My point is that bringing knowledge of and glory to himself throughout all nations is a central purpose of God's redemptive acts in human history, according to the Bible. This is clear even in the calling of Abraham, in which he is promised that through his "seed" (singular, not plural, as Paul emphasizes) all nations would be blessed.

Yes, it is singular. What's your point? That's how language works. If he's talking about all of his seed, he says seed. He doesn't say seeds.


My point is that you can't automatically dismiss Christian scholars as having a biased agenda, when many have come to their views through honest research, even being initially skeptical toward Christianity.

I can if they have become biased.


Again, see Dt. 9, and compare it with Rom. 9.

I don't know if you've realized this or not yet but I could really care less what the "new testament" says about Tanakh.


How would you define the terms "miracle" or "supernatural," and how do you explain the countless extraordinary events recorded throughout your Scriptures? Do you dismiss them all as "figurative" accounts?

I believe in miracles but I believe that's more about the way we look at life, if we are open to seeing the goodness in life that Hashem provides for us. I consider the events to be either due to a different way of looking at the world, polemic, propoganda, legend, or myth.


You sound much more like a Hindu than a Jew. Judaism (per Scripture) is founded upon propositional revelation.

As I've said before, you really don't know much about Judaism so you're really in no place to judge, much like the authors who wrote the gospels. I believe in revelation, but I believe that revelation is the experience of Oneness and that anything that comes from it is man's reaction to that experience.


I would argue that they misread their own Scripture.

Deuteronomy 13:1 The entire word that I command you, that shall you observe to do; you shall not add to it and you shall not subtract from it. [2] If there should stand up in your midst a prophet or a dreamer of a dream, and he will produce to you a sign or a wonder, [3] and the sign or the wonder comes about, of which he spoke to you, saying "Let us follow gods of others that you did not know and we shall worship them!7quot; [4] do not hearken to the words of that prophet or to that dreamer of a dream, for HASHEM, your G-d, is testing you to know whether you love HASHEM, your G-d with all your heart and with all your soul. [5] HASHEM, your G-d, shall you follow and Him shall you fear; His commandments shall you observe and to His voice shall you hearken; Him shall you serve and to Him shall you cleave. [6] And that prophet and that dreamer of a dream shall be put to death, for he had spoken perversion against HASHEM, your G-d Who takes you out of the land of Egypt, and Who redeems you from the house of slavery to make you stray from the path on which HASHEM, you G-d, has commanded you to go; and you shall destroy the evil from your midst. (Artscroll)

If it's a god they do not know, they are not to follow it. How do you expect them to determine if they do not know a god if not by their own experience?


They made this claim to Jesus, and he rebuked them as children of Satan.

That's not a very strong arguement. It's just slander, which breaks some of the mitzvot of the Torah. I thought Jesus was supposed to be sinless according to Christianity.

Not to wrong any one in speech (Lev. 25:17) (CCN48). See Speech and Lashon Ha-Ra.
Not to carry tales (Lev. 19:16) (CCN77). See Speech and Lashon Ha-Ra.
Not to cherish hatred in one's heart (Lev. 19:17) (CCN78). See Love and Brotherhood.
Not to take revenge (Lev. 19:18) (CCN80).
Not to bear a grudge (Lev. 19:18) (CCN81).
Not to put any Jew to shame (Lev. 19:17) (CCN79).

http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm


I contend that modern Judaism has a very truncated view of Messiah, and I'm very unimpressed with its tenuous explanations of several key prophetic texts. Anyway, this all began as an intra-Jewish debate
~2000 years ago, and it largely remains so to this day.

And I contend Christianity has a very expanded and distorted view of HaMoshiach that lacks support in the Tanakh. I'm very unimpressed with Christianity's tenuous explanations of all of the prophetic texts.

This does not remain an intra-Jewish debate at all. Judaism has maintained its position up until modern times. Now some of the movements believe there may be a messianic age instead or there will be nothing at all, but this is a modern issue. The classic Jewish position has not changed and goes by what the Masoretic text says.

Dauer

[HuckFinn]

Yes, it is singular. What's your point? That's how language works. If he's talking about all of his seed, he says seed. He doesn't say seeds.You deny that this promise (a) is Messianic or (b) indicates God's plan to reach the entire world?


I can if they have become biased.You can at least check them out before writing them off.


I don't know if you've realized this or not yet but I could really care less what the "new testament" says about Tanakh.Fine, then just read Dt. 9.


I believe in miracles but I believe that's more about the way we look at life, if we are open to seeing the goodness in life that Hashem provides for us. I consider the events to be either due to a different way of looking at the world, polemic, propoganda, legend, or myth.Yet you claim your faith is rooted in the Hebrew Scriptures?


As I've said before, you really don't know much about Judaism so you're really in no place to judge, much like the authors who wrote the gospels. I believe in revelation, but I believe that revelation is the experience of Oneness and that anything that comes from it is man's reaction to that experience.I know the Scriptures well enough to say that your understanding of "revelation" is not biblical.


If it's a god they do not know, they are not to follow it. How do you expect them to determine if they do not know a god if not by their own experience?Again, through proper understanding of their Scriptures, which Jesus tried to share with them.


That's not a very strong arguement. It's just slander, which breaks some of the mitzvot of the Torah. I thought Jesus was supposed to be sinless according to Christianity.I guess that all the great prophets were likewise guilty!


And I contend Christianity has a very expanded and distorted view of HaMoshiach that lacks support in the Tanakh. I'm very unimpressed with Christianity's tenuous explanations of all of the prophetic texts.I've pointed out obvious flaws in the strained attempts to deny that passages such as Ps. 2; 110 and Is. 53 are Messianic, and you haven't even attempted to respond substantively. In what sense does David himself rule the whole earth, and how is he a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek? What textual basis is there for arbitrarily assuming that Isaiah abruptly narrates on behalf of the Gentiles in 53:5-8? Why (besides a naturalistic philosophical bias) should Dan. 9 be rejected as prophecy? Did ancient Jewish commentaries not regard these passages as Messianic?

[Sephardic-male]

Isaiah 53 is not messianic:


A Jewish View of the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 52-53

by Alyzahttp://geocities.com/alyzab/gifs/colorbar.gif


52:13-14 "Indeed, My servant shall prosper, be exalted and raised to great heights. Just as the many were appalled at him--so marred was his appearance, unlike that of man, his form, beyond human semblance--just so he shall startle many nations."




Israel is the servant of the L-RD spoken of here, always the Hebrew is singular, it is corporate Israel that is being spoken of here, the people as a whole. Isaiah 41:8-9 says "But you, Israel, are my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend. You whom I have taken from the ends of the earth, and called you from its farthest corners, and said to you, You are my servant; I have chosen you, and [will] not cast you away." Isaiah 44:1-2 says "Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant; and Israel, whom I have chosen;. Thus says the L-RD who made you, and formed you from the womb, who will help you; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and you, Jeshurun, whom I have chosen.". Isaiah 44:21 again tells us that Israel is G-d's servant: "Remember these, O Jacob and Israel; for you are my servant; I have formed you; you are my servant; O Israel, you shall not be forgotten by me." Is important to note that the very next verse (44:22) says that, "I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, your transgressions, and, as a cloud, your sins; return to me; for I have redeemed you." G-d has already redeemed the Jews from our sins, all we have to do is return to Him, to follow His ways in the Torah--as it says in Psalm 32:5 "Then I acknowledged my sin to You; I did not cover up my guilt...and You forgave the guilt of my sin." Further references to Israel as G-d's servant are found in Isaiah 45:4, 48:20 and 49:3.



Now, let's look at the context of Isaiah 52-53 to see if the servant is also Israel there. The two chapters are connected, and form a continuous message. Isaiah 52:4-6 makes it clear that the servant is again Israel: "For thus says the L-RD G-d, My people went down the first time to Egypt to sojourn there; and the Assyrian oppressed them without cause. Now therefore, what have I here, says the L-RD, that My people is taken away for nothing? Those who rule over them howl, says the L-RD; and My Name continually every day is blasphemed. Therefore My people shall know My Name; therefore they shall know in that day that I am He who speaks; behold, here I am." Notice that a group of people is being spoken about (people is a collective singular here), one that was in Egypt and Assyria. That people is Israel.



In verse 13, that same people is spoken of as "My servant". Israel is indeed the servant spoken of here. G-d is telling us here that, in the end, Israel will prosper and take its rightful place in G-d's plan. But before that happens, Israel (i.e. the Jewish people) will be perceived as marred and unlike other men in appearance. We have been seen by others as demons, devils, rats, other than human. Our life to them has been cheap. When my dad was in basic training for the Korean war, a non-Jewish man from a different part of the country kept staring at him. My dad asked him why he was staring. The man asked my dad where his horns were, because he had been told all Jews had horns. The Jewish people have certainly been perceived as demonic by many, having horns and a tail. We have also be painted with enormous hooked noses and stooped backs, and perceived as having a odd, Jewish aroma. We have been painted as sacrificing Christian children to the "Devil" that controls us, and using the blood in our matzos. We have been accused of poisoning wells and desecrating hosts. Our skin has been used to make lamps, our hair to make cloth. To those who hate us, we are beyond human semblance. Many have been startled to find out we are not demons and have no horns.



Jesus, on the other hand, looked exactly like a man. There are no stories in the New Testament of Jesus astonishing people with his looks, with Jesus having horns, tails, and the like. This is not about Jesus, it is about Israel.




Isaiah 52:15 "Just so he shall startled many nations. Kings shall be silenced because of him, For they shall see what has not been told them, Shall behold what they never have heard."




We startled many nations by our very survival when they thought we should disappear, but we did not. We have startled many nations by our importance, and by our major contributions to the world in many fields, beyond our small numbers. Such a reviled people, such a small people who, in their view to this very day, should not exist anymore, will come as a big surprise to many nations, many peoples. In the future, they will be surprised when they realize their mistake, that what they have been told is wrong--we are not demons, servants of the "Devil", a fossil who should disappear, rats or evil. They will be startled when they find out we are and have indeed been G-d's servant. When they see the truth, they will indeed be speechless, silent in the face of what they have believed, what they have done.




Isaiah 53:1 "Who has believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the L-RD revealed?"




The arm of the L-RD is a metaphor used though out the Tanach to indicate G-d is taking direct action and for vindication. This same metaphor is used in Deuteronomy 5:15, "And remember that you were slaves in the land of Egypt, and that the L-RD your G-d brought you out from there with a mighty hand and with a stretched out arm;...". They will find the truth even if spoken by non-Jews hard to believe, hard to accept, but HaShem will vindicate us, the Jewish people.




Isaiah 52:2 "For he grew up before Him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground; he had no form nor comeliness that we should look at him, there was no countenance that we should desire him."




They did not think us pleasing to look upon, but HaShem will favor us, our suffering will not endure forever. Indeed, Israel is like a trunk in arid ground, growing with the favor of HaShem. Isaiah uses the trunk metaphor (see Isaiah 6:12) to refer to the surviving remnant of Jews that will come out of Babylon purified, free from the dross of idolaters. Again, no one desired to look at us, seeing us as less than human, as ugly. Yet, before G-d, we are as a tender plant coming out of the dry bitter ground of the world. We are a light in the darkness. Corporate Israel, a singular entity, is the shoot and no one else. Jesus, for example, was not seen as ugly to look upon and gathered large crowds.




Isaiah 53:3 "He is despised, shunned by men, a man of suffering, familiar with disease. As one who hid his face from us, he was despised, we held him of no account."




According to the NT, Jesus had large crowds of follower and was not shunned. Israel, on the other hand, certainly has been shunned. We have been kicked out of many countries, some more than once. The Romans kicked us out of our own land, renaming it, trying to make us disappear. Spain, England, Germany, France, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, etc. have all kicked us out. We have been shunned by men. We have been despised for many thing we have not done, and just because we are G-d's servant. The Syrian-Greeks despised us, and tried to destroy our religion, to make us worship their "gods". We have known much suffering: the rule of the Syrian-Greeks; the Roman with their forced labor, crucifixions of hundreds of thousands of Jews, and law forbidding us to learn or teach Torah; the Crusades; Inquisition; HaShoah (Holocaust); Dhimi status in Muslim countries; ghettos; expulsions; pogroms; job restrictions; slavery; etc... The ghettos were so packed that disease was a problem. In the concentration camps disease was rampant. Jesus was never shown as diseased. We have been held to be worthless, of no account by the non-Jewish world, we still are viewed in this way by many peoples and individuals. They cannot, did not, see our true face through their hate. This applies so much more to the suffering on the Jewish people at the hands of intolerant, ignorant, and bigoted people, than it ever could to Jesus. Again, I remind you that Isaiah is talking about Israel here when he is talking about My servant.




Isaiah 53:4 "Yet it was our sickness that he was bearing, Our suffering that he endured. We accounted him plagued, smitten and afflicted by God;"




The sickness was in them, not us. We have bore the result of their sickness, we have suffered and continue to suffer because of them. They believed us cursed by G-d, their own books said so as did their leaders. The took it upon themselves to make sure that we suffered the curse they thought us to be under. It was they themselves who made us suffer, through their own free will. Many Jews continue to suffer at the hands of those who view us as cursed by G-d.




Isaiah 53:5-6 says "But he was wounded because of our sins, crushed because of our iniquities. He bore the chastisement that made us whole, and by his bruises we were healed. We went astray like sheep, each going his own way; and the L-RD visited upon him the guilt of all of us."




Keep in mind that Israel is still the servant. Because of the sins of the non-Jews who persecuted us, we were crushed. We bore the chastisement that made many antisemites feel whole. The non-Jew did not treat others as they should have, straying from the Noachide law against murder. It appeared to many who arrayed themselves against the Jewish people that G-d was punishing the Jews, but it was really their own guilty actions that caused the suffering of G-d's servant Israel.




Isaiah 53:7 "He was maltreated, yet he was submissive, he did not open his mouth; like sheep being led to slaughter, like a ewe, dumb before those who shear her, he did not open his mouth."




Jesus cried out, he opened his mouth during his trial. We were maltreated, but following the principle that if we were submissive it would all blow over and we would survive, the people would survive, we remained submissive throughout the millennia. In Nazi controlled Europe, to give a modern example, we again remained submissive, not knowing that relocation, another exile from another country like so many others before, was not all Germany had in mind. We were transported in cattle cars, like sheep to the slaughter. Like ewes who do not know they are going to be sheared, we did not know the fate that awaited us in the "relocation trains". We did not open our mouths.




Isaiah 53:8 "By oppressive judgment he was taken away, who could describe his abode? For he was cut off from the land of the living through the sin of my [i.e. the non Jewish speakers] people, who deserved punishment."




They oppressed us, judged us guilty, and took us away. We, the Jewish people (Israel) were taken away by oppressive judgment (blood libel trials, pogroms, crusades, inquisition, anti-Jewish laws, the Shoah). We were murdered, cut off from the land of the living, because of their sins (ie the sin of murder, etc.) by non-Jews. It is they who murder who deserved the punishment they gave us unjustly. It was those who sinned and continue to sin against us, not us, the servant of G-d, who deserves to be punished.




Isaiah 53:9 "And his grave was set among the wicked, and with the rich, in his death -- though he has done no injustice and spoken no falsehood."




The rich are often portrayed as wicked, so we are saying the same thing twice for emphasis. Israel (the Jewish people) have done nothing to merit the ill treatment we have received by the rest of the world, nonetheless, Jews were still buried in pits and mass graves. Jews were still given the disrespectful burial of a wicked man. Our grave stones still removed to pave streets, still desecrated even here in America. From what I read in the NT, Jesus was given a decent burial in a nice tomb, not the disrespectful burial of a wicked person.




Isaiah 53:10-12 says "But the L-RD chose to crush him by disease, that, if he made himself an offering for guilt, he might see offspring and have long life, and that through him the L-RD's purpose might prosper. Out of anguish he shall see it; he shall enjoy it to the full through his devotion. [G-d says:] 'My righteous servant makes the many righteous, it is their punishment that he bears; assuredly, I will give him the many as his portion, he shall receive the multitude as his spoil. For he exposed himself to death and was numbered among the sinners, whereas he bore the guilt of many and made intercession for sinners.'"




First of all, note that the servant (Israel) will have offspring and long life. Israel as a group has had many children and a long life. Jesus had no children and was put to death by the Romans when he was fairly young. This passage cannot be referring to Jesus.



They believe that G-d was punishing us, that the L-RD "chose to crush" us "by disease". But it was their sins that made us suffer. We are G-d's servants, a light unto the nations, our role to bring the universal laws, morality to the world. Hitler's Germany rejected G-d's seven laws for all men, murdering the messenger, thinking that the message made Germany weak. For their guilt we suffered. The Jewish people has offered little resistance to the actions of our persecutors. We have born the brunt of their guilty actions. Yet, we are still devoted to HaShem and are fulfilling our role to be a light unto the nations, so that the nations may one day follow the Noachide laws ordained by G-d. Through our example, we are to make many people righteous, but we bear the punishment of the guilty in the meantime. We have been killed by many, dying with the Shema on our lips. We have been buried in pits as sinners, whereas the killers were the real sinners.



G-d will one day reward us, the nations will one day recognize our role. The nations have numbered us as sinner and murdered us because of their misguided beliefs. It is they that were guilty. We have ever prayed for the world, for the people of the nations in which we dwelt. In the end, all will stream to Mount Zion to worship, all will follow the seven laws of Noah, and "... In those days, ten men from nations of every tongue will take hold--they will take hold of every Jew by a corner of his cloak and say, 'Let us go with you, for we have heard that G-d is with you.'" (Zech. 8:23)



Proverb 21:21 "He who strives to do good and kind deeds attains life, success, and honor"



All quotes from Isaiah 52 and 53 are taken from: Tanakh, The Holy Scriptures. Philadelphia, Jerusalem: Jewish Publication Society, 1985.

Other quotes from the Tanakh come from either Tanakh, The Holy Scriptures. Philadelphia, Jerusalem: Jewish Publication Society, 1985. or The Davka Tanakh on CD-ROM



PS2 and 110



The missionaries will say that Psalm 2:2,6-7 refers to Jesus and that the Messiah(anointed one) mentioned in same psalm where G-d has begotten a son.

The Reply is: Context is important as is the author of the Psalm. Psalm 2:2 says (JPS): "kings of the earth take their stand, and regents intrigue together against the L-rd and against His anointed?"

Since there have been many anointeds (Aaron, David, Saul, Solomon, all high priests, Cyrus...) and many of the Psalms were written by David, isn't it more likely that David is refering to himself here? Considering that the next Psalm is about David fleeing from his son Absalom, it is the logical conclusion.

Psalm 2:6-8 says (JPS): " "But I have installed My king on Zion, My holy mountain!" Let me tell of the decree: the L-rd said to me "You are my son, I have fathered you this day. Ask it of me and I will make the nations your domain; your estate, the limits of the earth."

Notice there is a similar passage in 2 Samuel 7:14 ("I will be his Father, and he shall be my son. If he commits iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with such plagues as befall the sons of men;" from the JCL on CD-ROM) and 1 Chronicles 22:7-10 (" And David said to Solomon, my son, as for me, it was in my mind to build a house to the name of the L-RD my G-d; And the word of the L-RD came to me, saying, you have shed abundant blood, and have made great wars; you shall not build a house to My Name, because you have shed much blood upon the earth in my sight. . Behold, a son shall be born to you, who shall be a man of rest; and I will give him rest from all his enemies around; for his name shall be Solomon, and I will give peace and quiet to Israel in his days. . He shall build a house for My Name; and he shall be My son, and I will be his Father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel forever."), both of them are refering to Solomon. Since this Psalm is about David, isn't it more logical to conclude that G-d is treating David just as He will later treat his son Solomon? This does not point to Jesus, but to David. You might also not from this that the title "son of G-d" to a Jew has two meaning, 1) a king of the line of David and Solomon or 2) any human or Jew, as we are all metaphoric children of G-d. It never has the Greek meaning that the New Testament gives it--a divine being, a literal son of G-d. Greek "gods" have literal sons, the One G-d, does not. By claiming to be the "son of G-d" the Jewish Jesus may have been saying he was a king, or he may have been saying that like all Jews or all humans, he is a child of G-d. The Greek consept of "son of G-d" would never have occured to a Jew.



missionaries will say that Psalm 110 'proves' that Jesus is the Messiah, because Psalm 110:1 tells us the Messiah exalted to sit at G-d's right hand and Mark 16:19, Luke 24:50-51, Acts 2:33-36, Heb 10:12-13, and Matt 26:63-65 all claim that Jesus sits at G-d's right hand.


The Reply is: First of all, this is not even a Messianic prophecy, but a Psalm about David. David, you may recall, was the annointed (Heb mashiach) king of Israel. The verse says "And the L-rd (The 4 letters of G-d's name) said unto my lord (L'adoni, an address here for a human master, in this case David) "Sit at my right hamd while I make your enemies your footstool" " As I said in parenthases above, adoni is used also as a title of respect when addressing a superior such as a king (see Gen 23:6, 1 Kings 2, 17). To sit at G-d's right hand is an honor G-d simbolicly gives to David at a moment when the neighboring nations were hostile to him. See 1 Chron 28:5 and 29:23.



Ps is about David and NOT A FREAKING PROPHETIC BOOK

[the dauer]

You deny that this promise (a) is Messianic or (b) indicates God's plan to reach the entire world?

I don't deny the promise is messianic. You assert, against any biblical evidence, that the promise is messianic. The issue of what Abraham's seed to do is dealt with a little differently. It's a more a matter of following the mitzvot in order to inspire the other people of the world.


You can at least check them out before writing them off.

Don't think that you're the first evangelical I've encountered. But while we're talking about checking out, how about 1001 errors in the NT?

http://hometown.aol.com/abdulreis/myhomepage/index.html


Fine, then just read Dt. 9.

Yes, and? What does that have to do with anything?


Yet you claim your faith is rooted in the Hebrew Scriptures?

When did I say that? I think what I did say is that I believe that any sacred text is only sacred because we make it that way, but that this is a positive thing because it is a way of extending the Divine into our world. I gain much from the Torah. But what does taking things literally have to do with anything anyway? Judaism finds four levels of understanding in the text.


I know the Scriptures well enough to say that your understanding of "revelation" is not biblical.

a) Biblical at what point in biblical history? At revelation? After revelation? Generations after revelation?

b) You continue to say that because you know a Chrisitian perspective on the bible that you know Judaism. Judaism has a different perspection and in addition to that has the Talmud, midrash, mystical text, and much more. These are not part of the biblical canon but without taking all of them -- except mystical texts in some cases -- into account you really don't know what you're talking about.

I'm not a Karaite. Karaites are Jews who only follow Tanakh and only follow the plain meaning which is NOT the literal meaning by a long shot. Even with them you'd be off.

Again, through proper understanding of their Scriptures, which Jesus tried to share with them.

Okay, so you're telling me that they have no idea God's gonna become a person someday so they're not expecting this at all. Then God comes to earth as a person and tries to convince them that they really know that's the way He is even though they have no recollection of it and it's not stated anywhere in the Torah? That makes no sense to me. I guess we have to agree to disagree.


I guess that all the great prophets were likewise guilty!

Thing is, the prophets weren't sinless. They were entirely human. They can slander. If they break a mitzvah, it just shows that they too are human. But if Jesus does it, that's breaking a mitzvah showing that he's flaud and is actually human.


I've pointed out obvious flaws in the strained attempts to deny that passages such as Ps. 2; 110 and Is. 53 are Messianic, and you haven't even attempted to respond substantively. In what sense does David himself rule the whole earth, and how is he a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek? What textual basis is there for arbitrarily assuming that Isaiah abruptly narrates on behalf of the Gentiles in 53:5-8? Why (besides a naturalistic philosophical bias) should Dan. 9 be rejected as prophecy? Did ancient Jewish commentaries not regard these passages as Messianic?

Sephardic-male has been addressing a number of these issues. You don't need to hear it from me in order to have heard it.. But I'll address Dan. Dan is not prophetic because it's in Ketuvim, writings. It's not in nevi'im, prophets. Why would you assume that it's prophetic, because the church decided to move it into Prophets in order to suit its agenda?

Do you know Hebrew? Do you know Biblical Hebrew? If not, who would you trust to translate it for you, the people for whom it has always been a sacred language and a language of study or the people who decided many years after the fact that perhaps it would be good to try and justify the differences between the septuagint and the masoretic text?

Dauer

[HuckFinn]

Israel is the servant of the L-RD spoken of here, always the Hebrew is singular, it is corporate Israel that is being spoken of here, the people as a whole. Isaiah 41:8-9 says "But you, Israel, are my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend. You whom I have taken from the ends of the earth, and called you from its farthest corners, and said to you, You are my servant; I have chosen you, and [will] not cast you away." Isaiah 44:1-2 says "Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant; and Israel, whom I have chosen;. Thus says the L-RD who made you, and formed you from the womb, who will help you; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and you, Jeshurun, whom I have chosen.". Isaiah 44:21 again tells us that Israel is G-d's servant: "Remember these, O Jacob and Israel; for you are my servant; I have formed you; you are my servant; O Israel, you shall not be forgotten by me." Is important to note that the very next verse (44:22) says that, "I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, your transgressions, and, as a cloud, your sins; return to me; for I have redeemed you." G-d has already redeemed the Jews from our sins, all we have to do is return to Him, to follow His ways in the Torah--as it says in Psalm 32:5 "Then I acknowledged my sin to You; I did not cover up my guilt...and You forgave the guilt of my sin." Further references to Israel as G-d's servant are found in Isaiah 45:4, 48:20 and 49:3.Yes, "the servant" often refers to Israel, but not always. There are cases in which this would simply make no sense, as in 49:6, where the servant is commissioned to redeem Israel (as well as the Gentiles).



Isaiah 52:2 "For he grew up before Him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground; he had no form nor comeliness that we should look at him, there was no countenance that we should desire him."



They did not think us pleasing to look upon, but HaShem will favor us, our suffering will not endure forever.Isaiah doesn't say "they" (the Gentiles); he says "we" (Israel).


Jesus, for example, was not seen as ugly to look upon and gathered large crowds.He certainly had no impressive worldly credentials. (Lk. 4:14-30)


Isaiah 53:3 "He is despised, shunned by men, a man of suffering, familiar with disease. As one who hid his face from us, he was despised, we held him of no account."



According to the NT, Jesus had large crowds of follower and was not shunned.He was clearly shunned by the religious leaders, and even his followers abandoned him when he was arrested.

Again, Isaiah says, "we (Israel) held him of no account," not "they" (the Gentiles).


Isaiah 53:4 "Yet it was our sickness that he was bearing, Our suffering that he endured. We accounted him plagued, smitten and afflicted by God;"



The sickness was in them, not us. We have bore the result of their sickness, we have suffered and continue to suffer because of them. They believed us cursed by G-d, their own books said so as did their leaders. The took it upon themselves to make sure that we suffered the curse they thought us to be under. It was they themselves who made us suffer, through their own free will. Many Jews continue to suffer at the hands of those who view us as cursed by G-d.





Isaiah 53:5-6 says "But he was wounded because of our sins, crushed because of our iniquities. He bore the chastisement that made us whole, and by his bruises we were healed. We went astray like sheep, each going his own way; and the L-RD visited upon him the guilt of all of us."


Keep in mind that Israel is still the servant. Because of the sins of the non-Jews who persecuted us, we were crushed. We bore the chastisement that made many antisemites feel whole. The non-Jew did not treat others as they should have, straying from the Noachide law against murder. It appeared to many who arrayed themselves against the Jewish people that G-d was punishing the Jews, but it was really their own guilty actions that caused the suffering of G-d's servant Israel.Once again, what textual basis is there for assuming that Isaiah is speaking as a Gentile (when he says "we/us/our" etc.) in these verses?


Isaiah 53:7 "He was maltreated, yet he was submissive, he did not open his mouth; like sheep being led to slaughter, like a ewe, dumb before those who shear her, he did not open his mouth."



Jesus cried out, he opened his mouth during his trial.He said a few things, but he made no serious attempt to defend himself against his accusers.


Isaiah 53:8 "By oppressive judgment he was taken away, who could describe his abode? For he was cut off from the land of the living through the sin of my [i.e. the non Jewish speakers] people, who deserved punishment."It is absurd to pretend that Isaiah is narrating on behalf of the Gentiles!


Isaiah 53:10-12 says "But the L-RD chose to crush him by disease, that, if he made himself an offering for guilt, he might see offspring and have long life, and that through him the L-RD's purpose might prosper. Out of anguish he shall see it; he shall enjoy it to the full through his devotion. [G-d says:] 'My righteous servant makes the many righteous, it is their punishment that he bears; assuredly, I will give him the many as his portion, he shall receive the multitude as his spoil. For he exposed himself to death and was numbered among the sinners, whereas he bore the guilt of many and made intercession for sinners.'"



First of all, note that the servant (Israel) will have offspring and long life. Israel as a group has had many children and a long life. Jesus had no children and was put to death by the Romans when he was fairly young. This passage cannot be referring to Jesus.Unless "offspring" is taken in a spiritual sense.


The missionaries will say that Psalm 2:2,6-7 refers to Jesus and that the Messiah(anointed one) mentioned in same psalm where G-d has begotten a son.

The Reply is: Context is important as is the author of the Psalm. Psalm 2:2 says (JPS): "kings of the earth take their stand, and regents intrigue together against the L-rd and against His anointed?"

Since there have been many anointeds (Aaron, David, Saul, Solomon, all high priests, Cyrus...) and many of the Psalms were written by David, isn't it more likely that David is refering to himself here? Considering that the next Psalm is about David fleeing from his son Absalom, it is the logical conclusion.See http://www.jewsforjesus.org/answers/qa/psalm2.htm.


missionaries will say that Psalm 110 'proves' that Jesus is the Messiah, because Psalm 110:1 tells us the Messiah exalted to sit at G-d's right hand and Mark 16:19, Luke 24:50-51, Acts 2:33-36, Heb 10:12-13, and Matt 26:63-65 all claim that Jesus sits at G-d's right hand.


The Reply is: First of all, this is not even a Messianic prophecy, but a Psalm about David. David, you may recall, was the annointed (Heb mashiach) king of Israel. The verse says "And the L-rd (The 4 letters of G-d's name) said unto my lord (L'adoni, an address here for a human master, in this case David) "Sit at my right hamd while I make your enemies your footstool" " As I said in parenthases above, adoni is used also as a title of respect when addressing a superior such as a king (see Gen 23:6, 1 Kings 2, 17). To sit at G-d's right hand is an honor G-d simbolicly gives to David at a moment when the neighboring nations were hostile to him. See 1 Chron 28:5 and 29:23.As I've asked more than once before, in what sense is David a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek? Also, how can "my lord" refer to David, if he is the one speaking?

[Sephardic-male]

as usual Huckfinn conti ues to insert Jesus in the posts about JUDAISM and how it differs from christianity:

Melchizedek has nothing to do with David and his descendants


THE SERVANT VERSUS JESUS

There is no way that Jesus of Nazareth could have been the servant of YHVH described in Isaiah 53!


First of all, according to Christian mythology, Jesus was God Himself, come in the flesh! Timothy 3:16 tells us that 'GOD WAS MANIFEST IN THE FLESH (of Jesus)'!! Colossians 2:9 tells us that 'in him (Jesus) dwelleth ALL of the GODHEAD, BODILY!' John 14:9 tells us, 'he that has seen ME (Jesus) has SEEN THE FATHER!' etc. Since Jesus was GOD 'disguised' as a man, he could not be the Servant of God! At best, he would be playing the part of a 'servant'. It is no big deal for 'God" to 'suffer', since he knows all along that he is 'God', (a very consoling thought!), unless he temporarily 'forgot' he was 'God', (which is unlikely, for a person like 'God'!).

Secondly, the servant of YHVH is to LIVE, and have children! Verse 10 of Isaiah 53 reads, in the Hebrew: "If his soul offers itself as a sin-offering, he (the Servant) shall see seed (children! progeny!) and have a long life! (YIREH ZERA, YAARIKH YAMIM)." Hardly a fitting description of a man who died childless in his thirty third year!!

Moreover, the Servant is a THEY, not a HE!! Again, translating from the Hebrew, we read in verse 8: 'for the transgression of my people were THEY stricken! (NEGA LAMO - third person plural!).

But, wait a minute! WHO is being quoted in Isaiah 53? The Prophet? The people of Israel? The confusion is caused by the artificial chapter division. The story of the Servant begins in chapter 52, verse 13: 'behold, my servant shall prosper! (Jesus was forsaken, Matthew 27:46) ... so shall he surprise MANY NATIONS! (GENTILES!) Kings shall shut their mouths (in astonishment) because of him! For that which they have not heard SHALL THEY (THE GENTILE RULERS) PERCEIVE!

It is the rulers of the NATIONS who exclaim in astonishment: 'who would have believed what we report? The despised rejected servant suffered AS A RESULT OF OUR SINS, and nevertheless, he healed us with his truth. We thought that he was smitten of God, whereas, in truth, he was crushed by our iniquities which we gentiles perpetrated against him!' Now, we know that Christianity was spread throughout the nations of Europe by myriads of saints, apostles and preachers, so the surprise element doesn't exist if the gentile rulers here quoted were referring to Jesus; but what a surprise it will be to them when they perceive on THEIR OWN, that the Servant of YHVH is despised, afflicted ISRAEL who has for centuries borne of the nations' sins! The Pharaohs, Hamans, Hitlers sinned, and Israel suffered.

But, not ALL ISRAEL were righteous servants. Many were sinners! THE SERVANT, THE IDEAL ISRAEL is a class within Israel! The Prophets, the saints, the sages, like Moses - Jeremiah - Isaiah - Elijah - Akiva, etc. - the holy ones who perished in the inquisitions, crusades, pogroms, the holocaust - these are the COLLECTIVE SERVANT, the light into the nations, FAITHFUL ISRAEL who has borne witness to YHVH by deeds, sacrifice and tenacious faith! (This collective servant is further described in the 65th chapter of Isaiah.)

IF SO ... why did Jesus die? If he wasn't the righteous servant of YHVH, (and he WASN'T), why did he die such a terrible death?? The answer to this question is unequivocally provided in the Hebrew Scriptures. "Thus shall you say to them: the gods that have NOT made the heavens and the earth, THESE shall perish from the earth, and from under the heavens!!" (Jeremiah 10:11)


Submitted by Mordecai Alfandari




http://www.karaite-korner.org/light-of-israel/servant_vs_jesus.shtml

[HuckFinn]

Melchizedek has nothing to do with David and his descendantsThen why is he mentioned in Ps. 110?


First of all, according to Christian mythology, Jesus was God Himself, come in the flesh! Timothy 3:16 tells us that 'GOD WAS MANIFEST IN THE FLESH (of Jesus)'!! Colossians 2:9 tells us that 'in him (Jesus) dwelleth ALL of the GODHEAD, BODILY!' John 14:9 tells us, 'he that has seen ME (Jesus) has SEEN THE FATHER!' etc. Since Jesus was GOD 'disguised' as a man, he could not be the Servant of God! At best, he would be playing the part of a 'servant'. It is no big deal for 'God" to 'suffer', since he knows all along that he is 'God', (a very consoling thought!), unless he temporarily 'forgot' he was 'God', (which is unlikely, for a person like 'God'!).Read my previously linked article on the Incarnation:

http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/history/ath-inc.htm


Secondly, the servant of YHVH is to LIVE, and have children! Verse 10 of Isaiah 53 reads, in the Hebrew: "If his soul offers itself as a sin-offering, he (the Servant) shall see seed (children! progeny!) and have a long life! (YIREH ZERA, YAARIKH YAMIM)." Hardly a fitting description of a man who died childless in his thirty third year!!Check out http://www.communityefc.org/cgi-bin/download.cgi?download=1999/CEFC_1999040400_16kbps_mono.mp3.


Moreover, the Servant is a THEY, not a HE!! Again, translating from the Hebrew, we read in verse 8: 'for the transgression of my people were THEY stricken! (NEGA LAMO - third person plural!).To my knowledge, "lamo" can be either singular or plural. Keep in mind that Isaiah is the speaker; "my people" refers to Israel, not the Gentiles!


But, wait a minute! WHO is being quoted in Isaiah 53? The Prophet? The people of Israel? The confusion is caused by the artificial chapter division. The story of the Servant begins in chapter 52, verse 13: 'behold, my servant shall prosper! (Jesus was forsaken, Matthew 27:46) ... so shall he surprise MANY NATIONS! (GENTILES!) Kings shall shut their mouths (in astonishment) because of him! For that which they have not heard SHALL THEY (THE GENTILE RULERS) PERCEIVE!

It is the rulers of the NATIONS who exclaim in astonishment: 'who would have believed what we report? The despised rejected servant suffered AS A RESULT OF OUR SINS, and nevertheless, he healed us with his truth. We thought that he was smitten of God, whereas, in truth, he was crushed by our iniquities which we gentiles perpetrated against him!'This is untenable. In 52:15, the Gentiles are referred to in the third person. There is no basis for insisting that Isaiah suddently starts narrating as a Gentile in 53:1.

[Sephardic-male]

as usual still inserting Jesus in the posts





Psalm 110 (KJV) is of interest to missionaries mainly because of two verses:

1: The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

4: The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.



This translation makes it seem as if the Lord is talking to my Lord -- as if the same word, "Lord", is used twice. Missionaries thus decide that the first LORD is the father part of their trinity, and the second Lord is Jesus. In fact, the KJV renders two different Hebrew words with different meanings as if they were the same English word, Lord. The first word is the tetragramaton, The Name (HaShem.) The second word is adoni, which means master, or lord with a small "l" (e.g. like in landlord). Obviously, when correctly translated, the Christological reference disappears.

Here is my translation:
Of David a psalm. The word of HaShem to my master; "Wait for My right hand, until I make your enemies a footstool at your feet."

The staff of your might HaShem will send from Zion. Rule in the midst of your enemies.

Your people will volunteer on a day of your army at a glorious holy place. The dew of your youth shone from the womb.

HaShem swore and will not repent; you are a priest forever because of the words of Malchizedek.

My master, on your right hand, has crushed kings on the day of his anger.

He will judge nations [into] a heap of corpses; He crushed the head on a great land.

From the stream on the way he would drink; therefore, he raised his head.



Who is this "master" (the individual called "Lord" by the KJV)? If we assume the psalm's words are David's words, it could be anyone greater than David -- e.g. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob or Moses. In fact, Rashi interpretes it as being Abraham. If we assume the words are written by one of David's courtiers, then the master is obviously King David himself, and the psalm is praising his military successes.

Jesus, who did none of the things described in the Psalm, doesn't fit.

Here is the KJV traslation of the Psalm:
The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.

Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.

He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.

He shall drink of the brook in the way: therefore shall he lift up the head.

http://www.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=16331&showrashi=true

[HuckFinn]

Who is this "master" (the individual called "Lord" by the KJV)? If we assume the psalm's words are David's words, it could be anyone greater than David -- e.g. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob or Moses. In fact, Rashi interpretes it as being Abraham.This makes no sense at all. It seems like nothing more than a desperate attempt to avoid obvious messianic meaning of this Psalm. Why would any of these patriarchs be called a priest forever?

[Sephardic-male]

There is nothing messianic about Psalms apart from the mistranslations you have and Melchizedek is NOT MESSIANIC putting your dead man/god into the hebrew scriptures don't make it messianic

[HuckFinn]

I see. No need to answer any of the questions I've raised, just keep regurgitating the same bald assertions. Compelling.

[Disarm]

I see. No need to answer any of the questions I've raised, just keep regurgitating the same bald assertions. Compelling.
I'm sorry to have to say it but there is so much literature and commentary by many many people on these texts which you haven't read, it was never included in the old testament. Further, most of the more used translations of the old testament (eg the KJV) aren't accurate translations of the original hebrew texts, and even if they were you've got to understand the many different implications and meanings many hebrew words have, no bible I have ever heard of includes other meanings or even goes into the true depth of the meaning. For example, the translations of the phrase (from memory) in Exodus 20:3 "You shall have no other elohim besides me" often are "You shall have no other g-ds besides me"- a reasonable translation, but it misses so much of the depth of meaning of elohim that I would still consider it inaccurate. Then, if we did have a magical english word which paralleled elohim, you'd have to look at commentaries on what was actually meant by that phrase, we don't talk the way people used to and it is easy to confuse meanings..

Sometimes it does come down to personal interpretation, and it probably will here, but this discussion isnt even up to that!! You can't even agree on the true wording of the text! (in regard to the "we" vs "they" etc) I might actually look up the original wording in hebrew online then at least we're all on the same page and can look up translations of those words ourselves..THEN it's down to interpretation!!

[HuckFinn]

You can't even agree on the true wording of the text! (in regard to the "we" vs "they" etc) I might actually look up the original wording in hebrew online then at least we're all on the same page and can look up translations of those words ourselves..THEN it's down to interpretation!!I don't think the wording is in dispute here. I'm merely asking why I should believe that Isaiah abruptly begins speaking as a Gentile in chapter 53. This just seems like an implausible but necessary manuever that conveniently allows "the servant" to be interpreted as Israel rather than the Messiah. It doesn't pass the straight face test.

Ditto for Ps. 110. Who does David refer to as his lord/master if not the Messiah? How are any of the patriarchs supposed to subdue their enemies? In what sense could any of them be called a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek?

These are simple, legitimate questions that no one has bothered to answer.

[the dauer]

On Isaiah 53, think of someone talking. They have inflections that help indicate subtle changes in the direction of a passage. But Isaiah doesn't have that. It can't in the form it takes. Where is there any indication in that passage of the moshiach, anyway?

Ps 110, as Sefardic male explained, does not say order of Melchizedek. This explains it fully, but please ask if any of it is unclear to you:

http://www.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=16331&showrashi=true

dauer

[HuckFinn]

On Isaiah 53, think of someone talking. They have inflections that help indicate subtle changes in the direction of a passage. But Isaiah doesn't have that. It can't in the form it takes.In other words, you have no evidence whatsoever to back the novel claim that Isaiah is speaking for the Gentiles in chapter 53.


Where is there any indication in that passage of the moshiach, anyway?
What else can "the servant" refer to if not Israel or the Messiah? The nation of Israel just doesn't work in the passage, which has historically been understood as Messianic by most Jewish commentators:

http://www.jewsforjesus.org/answers/qa/Isaiah53.htm

http://www.jewsforjesus.org/library/issues/02-05/Isaiah53.htm

http://www.jewsforjesus.org/library/issues/07-09/prophetrabbis.htm


Ps 110, as Sefardic male explained, does not say order of Melchizedek. This explains it fully, but please ask if any of it is unclear to you:

http://www.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=16331&showrashi=trueOK, this commentary is more credible than those Sefardic-male has posted, but it still seems unlikely to me that David was reminiscing about Abraham rather than looking forward to the Messiah that God had promised to raise up through his lineage. Again, many historic Jewish commentaries evidently regarded this passage as Messianic:

http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ337.HTM

[Sephardic-male]

http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ337.HTM is a christian site inserting Jesus into rabbinism Huck stop inserting Jesus in jewish writings and LEARN ABOUT JUDAISM