messianic jews [Archive]

sunkissedgreenfarie

06-12-2004, 04:09 AM

Are any of you guys messianic jews...i've been studying judaism alot lately and i love it but i think i still believe that jesus is the christ so i'm just wondering your guys oppions on the matter.

the dauer

06-13-2004, 04:46 AM

Lizz

06-13-2004, 05:07 AM

I, too, have studied Judaism alot, over a year or so.

Anyway, I was wondering what the difference between a "messianic jew" and a regular christian was? I don't see a huge difference, but I could be wrong.

dreadyjew

06-20-2004, 11:39 PM

The difference between a Messianic Jew and a Christian is that a Christian makes the task of converting Jews a part-time affair, while Messianic Jews make it their primary motivation. Jews for Jesus was the first Messianic Jewish organization, and they were founded specifically with the intention of converting Jews. Since then, many break-off groups have been founded, and have tried to hide the fact that their primary goal is to convert Jews... All the same...

I can't even express to you how important it is to check out www.jewsforjudaism.org. It's the website of the organization Jews for Judaism, a counter-missionary/counter-cult organization founded as a response to Jews for Jesus. I know some of the folks who work for Jews for Judaism, and they do a thankless job with little funding, and help prevent many Jews from being taken by these missionary/cult organizations.

To quote from one of their brochures:

"Jews for Jesus is one of hundreds of evangelical Christian missionary organizations that spend millions of dollars each year to convert Jews. Despite any trappings of Jewish tradition utilized to mislead and entice... Their theology is 100% Christian. In fact, many of their leaders aren't Jewish. Both Jewish and Christian groups have denounced their tactics. In the event that you are confused or confronted by these missionaries, the following Q&A is provided to help you and your children."

To read the rest, see the brochure in PDF format at http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/brochures/7AnswerstoJewsforJesus.pdf

There is no question, and no doubt... Messianic Judaism is in no way, shape, or form a legitimate "Judaism." There are no legitimate Judaisms that would accept Messianic Judaism as such. It is entirely a Christian movement, founded by Christians, primarily run by Christians, that is built on lies and deception, and is tasked with converting as many Jews to a hidden form of Christianity as they can.

Whatever you do, stay away from these folks! They are bad news!!!

b'Shalom.

charredacacia

06-28-2004, 10:32 PM

jews for jesus is like vegans for cheeseburgers

dreadyjew

06-29-2004, 05:37 AM

jews for jesus is like vegans for cheeseburgers
I must say, I've never heard it said better!

b'Shalom.

feministhippy

06-30-2004, 10:46 PM

It seriously pisses me off that people want to trick people into joining their religion by disguising it as and thus mocking someone's else's religion. :mad:

Warrior

07-16-2004, 08:24 AM

The Jewish population at large does not consider Messianic Jews as Jewish. They are funded by fundamentalist Christian organizations. Basically, it was an attempt at making Jesus more palatable to Jews because some Christians believe that 1 Jewish convert is worth 50 non-Jewish converts. They believe that all Jews must believe in Jesus before the second coming. And so they go to great lengths to missionize to the Jews. This is one such length.

As far as Jesus being "the christ," there are a number of very clear measures of whether the messiah has come, such as world peace. Without this, we know he hasn't come. Also, the emphasis in Judaism is not on the messiah but on the age that follows his coming. Jews would never even think of worshipping the real messiah. He'll just be a person like anyone else.

I hope this answers some of your questions.

Ben

Edit: Sorry if I sounded a little harsh. I was just trying to be to-the-point.I couldn't get past this CRAP before I had to post. This especially angers me: "Christians believe that 1 Jewish convert is worth 50 non-Jewish converts." Where in your sick perverted religion did you hear that one? True Christians know that jews are the children of Satan, as Jesus said:
JESUS CHRIST, speaking to the Jews in the Gospel of St. John, VIII:44
"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lust of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is not truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar and the father of it. - then answered the Jews - "

Your religion teaches that jews have two souls (the "Adam", or "man" soul and the "animal soul"), and Gentiles only one, and that the soul of the Gentile is the "animal soul" and unable to attain any importance in the eyes of God. Therefore when the Gentile dies, he ceases to exist. The Talmud is full of hate speech against anyone who is not jew, (aka Gentiles), against Jesus (he was a lier, a magician, and is burning - or boiling - in a sea of excrement!), the Virgin Mary (she was a harlot, a whore).

I caution any Gentile who is studying or is curious about judaism to do all you can to locate and read their Talmud before you belive the lies in the little books they allow you to read or "study", for the core of judaism is found there and not in pamplets.

States dreadyjew:"Whatever you do, stay away from these folks! They are bad news!!!"
Yes, stay away from these folks!!!!

the dauer

07-16-2004, 10:15 PM

I couldn't get past this CRAP before I had to post. This especially angers me: "Christians believe that 1 Jewish convert is worth 50 non-Jewish converts." Where in your sick perverted religion did you hear that one? True Christians know that jews are the children of Satan, as Jesus said:
JESUS CHRIST, speaking to the Jews in the Gospel of St. John, VIII:44
"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lust of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is not truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar and the father of it. - then answered the Jews - "

Your religion teaches that jews have two souls (the "Adam", or "man" soul and the "animal soul"), and Gentiles only one, and that the soul of the Gentile is the "animal soul" and unable to attain any importance in the eyes of God. Therefore when the Gentile dies, he ceases to exist. The Talmud is full of hate speech against anyone who is not jew, (aka Gentiles), against Jesus (he was a lier, a magician, and is burning - or boiling - in a sea of excrement!), the Virgin Mary (she was a harlot, a whore).

I caution any Gentile who is studying or is curious about judaism to do all you can to locate and read their Talmud before you belive the lies in the little books they allow you to read or "study", for the core of judaism is found there and not in pamplets.

States dreadyjew:"Whatever you do, stay away from these folks! They are bad news!!!"
Yes, stay away from these folks!!!!

I did not say Christians. I said some Christians. And if you did not know that then you are misinformed.This is the reason that Jews for Jesus exists. It is a fundamentalist Christian movement because some Christians believe that they must convert the Jews, and they specifically target Jews.

And then after that statement you just spout misinformed hate. Isn't that statement typical related to the Christian concept of Original Sin? Wasn't Jesus typically talking to Jews as he was a Jew in a Jewish society?

And everyone is b'nai adam, children of Adam, all of humanity. I have no idea where you got that last fact. On the contrary, Judaism does not condemn anybody. Jews just have many more laws to follow. Non-Jews potentially have 7. There is no such suggestion that a non-Jew ceases to exist. Rather, Judaism is concerned with Jews. It is a religion for Jews. And it speaks about what happens for them.

As far as what you may have read about the Talmud, this is an example of one misquote:

CLAIM (32a)
Also in footnote #2 to Shabbath 104b it is stated that in the "uncensored" text of the Talmud it is written that Jesus mother, "Miriam the hairdresser," had sex with many men.

RESPONSE
No such text exists in the standard Talmuds. There is reference to a certain Ben Stada who according to R. Eliezer brought knowledge of witchcraft out of Egypt by making marks on his body. The other sages dismissed Ben Stada as a fool. In some versions of the Talmud there is
statement to the effect that this person's mother (Miriam Magdala) was not faithful to her husband. Some commentators specifically point out for identification purposes that this person was executed in Lod and is not
identifiable with anyone mentioned in Christian traditions. The Talmud also notes that the name Miriam Magdala was a very common one.

http://groups.msn.com/Mishpocha/thetalmudpart3.msnw

This website most likely covers all of the slander you have ever heard.

I recommend before you begin slandering others, that you seriously investigate what they are saying, and not what others are saying about them.

--Ben

Edit: Even more poignant:

Gloats over Christ Dying Young A passage from Sanhedrin 106 gloats over the early age at which Jesus died: "Hast thou heard how old Balaam (Jesus) was?-He replied: It is not actually stated but since it is written, Bloody and deceitful men shall not live out half their days it follows that he was thirty-three or thirty-four years old."

RESPONSE (1)
Notice the "Jesus" in parentheses? The text does not say "Jesus". It says "Balaam". How to trump up a charge of blasphemy, in one easy lesson.

RESPONSE (2)
The Talmud states that the wicked Bilaam (Numbers 23:24) died after living only half his allotted time span, in accordance with the statement in Psalms 55:24, that the wicked do not survive half their allotted life span. The commentary of Rashi makes it clear that the reference is to the biblical Bilaam.

Warrior

07-17-2004, 10:23 AM

Yaakov

07-19-2004, 10:37 AM

Hello warrior,

We, the Jewish people have survived for a few thousand years. We have suffered through numerous catastrophes, and our religion has survived with us.

We have survived and our religion has survived because our faith is built upon a rock solid foundation, a belief in one and only one God.

It is almost understandable why people like you attack us and our religion. Your stated belief is in a religion assembled on a wobbly foundation with styrofoam bricks from other mythological sources Multiple gods, virgin births, man-gods, return from death, all the things your mind tells you are illogical and false.

In your confused and desparate state, you attempt to use your false religion, (Do unto others...., Love thy neighbor...., Turn the other cheek...., and so on) to condone the ridicule, torture and murder of others who do not wish to believe as you.

Time continues forward, and we wait for the coming of the HUMAN BEING, the massiah, when things will be put into their proper place, for ALL people.

Your false religion will pass just as the others have passed, to be looked back on as just another myth.

Nigal

07-19-2004, 03:32 PM

Shalom in the name of Hashem blessed is His name!

When it comes to getting a firm and clear representation of Judaism it all comes back to one place, the Torah. The Torah is what G-d gave mankind as the measuring stick for all of life and every situation. If someone proclaims something and it is not supported by the Torah then it is in error. It does not seem to be intellectually honest to quote political leaders in an effort to make a true representation of Judaism. We must look to the Torah and the complete Tanach if we are to measure Judaism. Yes it is sad to see some radicals say things that go directly against the Torah but every religion has it’s wayward followers from time to time. But the Torah is eternal and everlasting and the proclamations of a few will never change it.

If you would like to learn what Judaism is and what it entails a very good site is http://www.jewfaq.org/ (http://www.jewfaq.org/). BTW- just so no one is mislead, I am not Jewish or xtian.

Shalom and may He bless you greatly!

the dauer

07-19-2004, 08:51 PM

the dauer: Thank you for responding to me. However you gave me no more than I expected from a person who is trained to deceive the Gentiles. Firstly, you gave me a jewish site that I am sure is constucted to misinform; Secondly, you ignored the assertions of my post concerning the 50/1 ratio, and Jesus' statement that jews are the children of the devil.
Now, I did not come here to slander you, I came only to show that those who are seriously considering following the teachings of Judaism that they are headed down a path that is contridictory to God.
If the site you posted was not to misinform, then why weren't the pages of the Talmud scanned into the response instead of some vauge reply given as the answer?
How do you explain away this hatred:

"Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on trial."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, 25 March, 2001 quoted in BBC News Online

Jewish plan for America
"We must realize that our party's most powerful weapon is racial tensions. By propounding into the consciousness of the dark races that for centuries they have been oppressed by whites, we can mold them to the program of the Communist Party. In America we will aim for subtle victory. While inflaming the Negro minority against the whites, we will endeavor to instill in the whites a guilt complex for their exploitation of the Negros. We will aid the Negroes to rise in prominence in every walk of life, in the professions and in the world of sports and entertainment. With this prestige, the Negro will be able to intermarry with the whites and begin a process which will deliver America to our cause."
Israel Cohen, A Racial Program for the Twentieth Century, 1912. Also in the Congressional Record, Vol. 103, p. 8559, June 7, 1957

"[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the 'Beasts,"' New Statesman, June 25, 1982.

"This country exists as the fulfillment of a promise made by God Himself. It would be ridiculous to ask it to account for its legitimacy."
-- Golda Meir, Le Monde, 15 October 1971

"There is no such thing as a Palestinian people... It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn't exist."
-- Golda Meir, statement to The Sunday Times, 15 June, 1969.

"Jewish blood and a goy's [gentile's] blood are not the same."
Israeli Rabbi Yitzhak Ginsburg, Inferring that killing isn't murder if the
victim is Gentile. Jerusalem Post, June 19,1989.

"Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it."
-- Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, October 3, 2001, to Shimon Peres, as reported on Kol Yisrael radio.

One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail." -- Rabbi Yaacov Perrin, Feb. 27, 1994 [Source: N.Y. Times, Feb. 28, 1994, p. 1]

Do you have a web site of deception for these things?

To you who are considering following the ways of the jews, I have these words for you:
Read 1st John 2: 22-23

22: Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
23: Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

I could not find the quote about the 1/50, but I did find something else and I will quote it for you.

THE Theological OBSESSION

The Christian gospel is described as being "to the Jew first and also to the Greek [gentile]" (Romans 1:16). Fundamentalist evangelical Christians interpret this to mean that they have a mandate to convert every person, but especially Jews.

Many fundamentalist Christians believe that the Jews are the key to bringing about the "Second Coming" of Jesus and salvation to all of mankind. To prove their point, they quote the passages, "Salvation is from the Jews" (John 4:22) and "You will not see me until you [the Jews] say, " is he [Jesus] that comes in the name of the Lord'" (Matthew 23:39).

Some believe that Jesus' return is dependent upon the conversion of exactly 144,000 Jews (based upon the seventh chapter of Revelation) and that the rest of the Jews will be wiped out during the great tribulation that will accompany the return of Jesus. In the words of Richard Yao, a non-Jewish former fundamentalist:

"The disturbing thing about all this is that millions of people in this country are getting used to the idea that it's okay for millions and millions of people [Jews] to die in this terrible holocaust [tribulation], because that's a requirement for Jesus to return. I think that's very, very scary."

THE PSYCHOLOGICAL OBSESSION

Since the concept of a Messiah was originally and exclusively a Jewish concept, the rejection of Jesus as the Messiah by the Jews has always posed a serious paradox and dilemma for the Christian Church. Therefore, in the eyes of many evangelical fundamentalists, each conversion of a Jew to Christianity becomes a corroboration of their faith.

For centuries, the response to the Jewish rejection of Jesus has been persecution of Jews rationalized as G-d's divine punishment for having rejected Jesus. The fire of prejudice was fueled by New Testament passages such as:

"You [Jews] are of your father the devil." (John 8:44)

"The Jews who killed both Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out, they are not pleasing to G-d." (I Thessalonians 2:15)

"All the people [Jews] answered and said, his blood be upon us and on our children." (Matthew 27:25)

Most fundamentalists will argue that the perpetrators of the history of atrocities against the Jews were not "true" Christians. However, according to many historians, it is precisely such New Testament rhetoric that is responsible for creating the atmosphere in which such events could transpire.2

Today, after almost 2,000 years of Jewish rejection of Jesus, the dilemma still exists. It is out of this tremendous theological and psychological need that the fundamentalist Christians have committed millions of dollars to develop new, sophisticated and often deceptive techniques to convert Jews.

http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/handbook/s_obsession.html

It quotes NT for you. By the way, Jesus was a Jew. If something is said about the Jews, should he not be included?

As far as those quotes you gave, they may or may not be true. But they represent the extremist thoughts of individuals and do not represent the beliefs maintained by mainstream Judaism. Do you happily maintain as right conduct and word the Inquisition and the Crusades and the Blood Libels and the antisemitic writings of Martin Luther?

"We are at fault in not slaying them."

Martin Luther, speaking on the Christian need to murder other people to avenge Jesus and what he claimed as Christians killed at the hands of the Jews hundred and hundreds of years ago.

Ben

campbell34

07-20-2004, 04:54 AM

As far as Jesus being "the christ," there are a number of very clear measures of whether the messiah has come, such as world peace. Without this, we know he hasn't come. Also, the emphasis in Judaism is not on the messiah but on the age that follows his coming. Jews would never even think of worshipping the real messiah. He'll just be a person like anyone else.
-Do you believe as the Bible teaches that the Jewish people poluted God's name where ever they wondered on the earth and continue to do so today?

I had concern for my holy name, which the house of Israel profaned among the nations where they had gone.

"Therefore say to the house of Israel, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone.-Ezekiel 36:21-22

Also, If this is God's opinion of Jewish spirituality why would anybody look to the Jewish people for Biblical truth?

Warrior

07-20-2004, 06:25 AM

Nigal

07-20-2004, 03:31 PM

Please disregard my above post. I had no idea of the level of hatred I was dealing with. I bid you peace and blessings no matter what.

Shalom

the dauer

07-20-2004, 07:19 PM

-Do you believe as the Bible teaches that the Jewish people poluted God's name where ever they wondered on the earth and continue to do so today?

I had concern for my holy name, which the house of Israel profaned among the nations where they had gone.

"Therefore say to the house of Israel, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone.-Ezekiel 36:21-22

Also, If this is God's opinion of Jewish spirituality why would anybody look to the Jewish people for Biblical truth?

You have skipped over some important information. Your quote begins therefore. It left me wondering what came before it. Why is this to be said to the house of Israel?

First it is important to mention, God is very upset. There has been idol worship and the people had shed much blood.
...
I scattered them among the nations and they were dispersed through the countries: I punished them in accordance with their ways and deeds. But when they came to those nations, they caused My holy name to be profaned, in that it was said of them, "These are the people of the LORD, yet they had to leave his land." Therefore I am concerned with My holy name, which the house of Israel have caused to be profaned among the nations to which they have come.
Say to the house of Israel: Thus said the Lord GOD: Not for your sake will I act, O House of Israel, but for My holy name, which you have caused to be profaned among the nations to which you have come.

Ezekiel 36:19 - 22

Now, piece by piece.

--I scattered them among the nations and they were dispersed through the countries: I punished them in accordance with their ways and deeds.

They were scattered among the nations. This is their punishment for idolatry and bloodshed.

--But when they came to those nations, they caused My holy name to be profaned, in that it was said of them, "These are the people of the LORD, yet they had to leave his land." Therefore I am concerned with My holy name, which the house of Israel have caused to be profaned among the nations to which they have come.--

GodÕs holy name was profaned because the other nations saw GodÕs people scattered. They would say to themselves, ÒThey claim to be GodÕs people and yet they are scattered. Some God.Ó ItÕs hurting His rep and He wants to repair the damage done. Israel profaned GodÕs name indirectly, by being seen scattered by the other nations. It was not because they were acting poorly. That was dealt with in the last part.

--Say to the house of Israel: Thus said the Lord GOD: Not for your sake will I act, O House of Israel, but for My holy name, which you have caused to be profaned among the nations to which you have come.--

God tells Ezekiel to tell Israel that His actions will be for His name, and not for them. What will these actions be? Beginning in line 23 it describes quite poetically that the nations will see GodÕs holiness through Israel when they are raised to a new spiritual level and follow ALL of the laws and rules. Then theyÕll live in Israel as things were before. And there will be full harvests. And all of Israel will be repaired. And the people will fill the land.

So why is this important? Because God makes the point that he does all of these acts for His name and not for Israel. ÒDonÕt get full of yourselves. It is not for you that I do this. It could have been another nation. But you chose me.Ó And GodÕs name will at that time be given the respect it deserves because the people will have seen the work of His hand. And they will realize that just because His people were scattered, He did not forget them. But it is God and not the people who will take credit for this.

ItÕs like Moses hitting the rock. He does it in anger and makes it seem like he gets the water. God gets no credit. But it was God who made water spring forth from the rock. For this Moses doesnÕt enter the land. And thatÕs what this prophesy was leading up to. Now I will summarize

God scattered Israel as punishment for idolatry and bloodshed. After they were scattered the other nations thought less of God. His name was profaned by the status of His nation of priests being scattered. God wants Israel to know that when He acts it is for Him and not them, so they shouldnÕt develop an ego. Someday God will gather all of Israel back to the land and they will follow all of his laws and the land will be bountiful. But this will be GodÕs doing for GodÕs name. But he will also do for IsraelÕs sake and multiply the people like sheep.

Now you may ask, if the punishment for idolatry was already handed out,, why does God need to cleanse Israel of their fetishes before they enter the land? People are not perfect. That is not our job in life. WeÕre human. God made us as we are. Our job is to strive to do good, and when we do wrong it is our job to make good on what we have done. So on that day it will be expected that some of the Jews will have adopted the fetishes of other people. But at that time they will abandon them.

the dauer

07-20-2004, 07:59 PM

I will attempt to respond to all of your posts later as I am pressed for time tonight. However, I do want to respond to two of your slanders right away.
1). That Jesus was a jew. Jesus was an Isrealite. Jews ariginated out of Edom and were a mixed race of people. Isrealites are of one nation (race).
2). The jews are not even mentioned in the Torah - the first five books of the Bible.
3). " We, the Jewish people have survived for a few thousand years. We have suffered through numerous catastrophes, and our religion has survived with us."
This is typical jewish "feel sorry for us rhetoric". No sympathy here. BTW, why wont you mention all of the catastrophes that your religion has perpatrated upon the entire world - such as the mass killings in Palestine that is being carried out daily by jews?
4). "It is almost understandable why people like you attack us and our religion. Your stated belief is in a religion assembled on a wobbly foundation with styrofoam bricks from other mythological sources Multiple gods, virgin births, man-gods, return from death, all the things your mind tells you are illogical and false."
My religion is based on a very solid foundation - that of the entire Bible and the words of God and Jesus. There is no paganism in Christianity as you claim. I know that I am dealing with masters of deceit, and you will try to use this deceit to defeat me. But I will argue against your lies and show them to be such. Pull your panties up girls, you're in for a ride.

1. Jew comes from the hebrew Yehudi which means a resident of Yehuda/Judah/Judea or the Southern Kingdom of Israel. I am using a Christian lexicon, btw. Yehudi occurs at Zc 8:23, Je 43:9, Est 2:5, Je 34:9, Est 3:4, Est 5:13, 6:10, 8:7, 9:29.31, 10:5, I Ch 4:18, Je 52:28.30, 2 K 16:6, 25:25, Je 32:12, 38:19, 40:11.12, 41:3, 44:1, Ne 1:2, 2:16, 3:33.34, 4:6, 5:1.8.17, 6:6, 13:23, Est 3:6.10.13, 4:3.13.14.16, 6:13, 8:3.5.8.9.9.11.16.17.17, 9:1.1.2.3.5.6.10.12.13.16.19.20.22.23.24.24.25.27. 28.30

After Israel split the Northern Kingdom was lost. This is why there are sometimes references in various literature to the lost tribes. Nobody's sure exactly what happened to them. Afterwards all that was left was the Southern Kingdom of Judah, which was made up in large part by the tribe of Judah. After the Babylonian Exile the land was called Judea. A Jew is a person who claims descendance from the people of Judea. This includes converts. Converts often accept the hebrew name <insert name> ben Avraham v'Sarah, or So-and-So Son of Abraham and Sarah. Jesus was most definitely a Jew as he was a resident of Judea. I'll raise the bar and say it's quite likely he was a pharisee and was really opposed to the Sadducees who had been corrupting temple practice and not the Pharisees who were trying to maintain the letter and spirit of the law. But by the time Christianity was becoming its own there were no Sadducees so it needed a new other by which to define itself in opposition.

The lexicon I use is "A Hebrew And English Lexicon of the Old Testament" by Francis Brown, S.R. Driver, and C.A.Briggs. It's based on the work of William Gesenius.

You also state that Israelites are of one race, yet when they left Egypt, were they not a mixed multitude? Nevermind that David came from Ruth, who was a convert. Or that Moses married a non-Jew. It's not an issue of race. Nation is better though. Still not perfect.

2. You are correct. They are not mentioned. But the tribe of Judah is. This is because Israel had not been divided at that time. When Israel split into the Northern and Southern Kingdoms, the Southern was Judah. How is any of that relevant? Would it make you feel better to know that we are also called B'nai Yisrael, the children of Israel?

3. There are no mass killings of Palestinians by Jews. On the contrary, Israel is working towards peace and defending itself from a terrorist threat, something the US has only recently gotten even a taste of. I have never heard of an Israeli cheering on the death of Palestinians or going out on crusades to murder them. I have heard of Israel considering what must be done to stop the violence, and I have heard of Israel investing a lot of money into riot control weapons and the like that will not do serious harm to the individual.

4. Show me where in TaNaKh it says that the messiah will be a GodMan. Show me where it says that he will not fulfill any of the prophesies that would be observable to the whole world. Show me where it says that he will come back from the dead. Show me where it says that we have to have faith in him in order to be saved because we all dirty, dirty people who can't relate to God in any way unless it's through a person who may or may not have existed. TaNaKh, by the way, is Torah. Nevi'im, and Ketuvim. Torah, Prophets, and Writings.

Ben

Esther

07-21-2004, 07:29 AM

Warrior

07-21-2004, 12:12 PM

Warrior wrote:
"Pull up your panties girls, you're in for a ride"
Is this how Xtians talk to non-Xtians? Hardly complementary.

Warrior in a previous post said:
"However you gave me no more than I expected from a person who is trained to deceive the Gentiles. Firstly, you gave me a jewish site that I am sure is constucted to misinform; Secondly, you ignored the assertions of my post concerning the 50/1 ratio, and Jesus' statement that jews are the children of the devil."
Wow! Do you know what you just said? To better understand your inflammatory remarks what if you said that about a Black person? Someone (correctly) would assume you were racist.

As far as using the events in the middle East to camaflouge your hatred of Jews, its easy to selectively pick from a wide range of quotes from any Nation and mis-inform others through your slanted Jew bashing lense.

Warrior wrote:
"Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son."

I guess according to Warrior besides Jews, Muslims, Atheists, Buddists, and other religions are liars and the antichrist. Let me guess, it's you're duty not to respect other faiths and beliefs. Tell me, are you planning on starting up any pogroms, blood libel, and Talmud book burning in your neighborhood soon?

As far as I can see the only deception going on is your own attempts to invalidate Judaism.
Isn't this beautifull; Isn't this great? Once again my loving God responds to my prayers! Blessed be the God of the true Isrealites!

Do a check on my posts. Hee, hee, I am a racist! I freely admit that. Will any of you admit that you hate Jesus? Will you admit that you HATE Gentiles?

As I said before girls, pull your panties up, you are in for a ride. Daddy don't discrimate. Daddy IS an anti-semite. Throw all of your anti shit at me and I will admit to it. But what will YOU girls admit too? Nothing because you are deceivers. I am not. I recognize me. Admit your hate, cowards.

You say it is deception to attempt to " invalidate judaism". What is valid in judaism? If it is "valid" then why do you hide the Talmud from non-jews? Why, when I recently tried to purchase one ($1100.oo) why did I need my rabbi to purchase it for me? Because gentiles are not to know the word of it, for then they will know the hatred that is the jew and will destroy you for it.

I do not use the events of the middle east to camaflouge anything. I use that as an example of your self-rightous hatred against nonjews. Why do you MURDER Palestinians, who are powerless against you? Continue your deception and your lies; worship satan as your father, for truly he is. But remember, my God, will cleans His people and destroy you. Shit. You are not even worthy of being that.

Warrior wrote:
"Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son."

Yep, Warrior wrote that - A direct translation from the New Testament.

Do you, jew, "respect other faiths and beliefs."? Nope. So don't try this holier than me crap.

the dauer

07-21-2004, 06:07 PM

Isn't this beautifull; Isn't this great? Once again my loving God responds to my prayers! Blessed be the God of the true Isrealites!

Do a check on my posts. Hee, hee, I am a racist! I freely admit that. Will any of you admit that you hate Jesus? Will you admit that you HATE Gentiles?

As I said before girls, pull your panties up, you are in for a ride. Daddy don't discrimate. Daddy IS an anti-semite. Throw all of your anti shit at me and I will admit to it. But what will YOU girls admit too? Nothing because you are deceivers. I am not. I recognize me. Admit your hate, cowards.

You say it is deception to attempt to " invalidate judaism". What is valid in judaism? If it is "valid" then why do you hide the Talmud from non-jews? Why, when I recently tried to purchase one ($1100.oo) why did I need my rabbi to purchase it for me? Because gentiles are not to know the word of it, for then they will know the hatred that is the jew and will destroy you for it.

I do not use the events of the middle east to camaflouge anything. I use that as an example of your self-rightous hatred against nonjews. Why do you MURDER Palestinians, who are powerless against you? Continue your deception and your lies; worship satan as your father, for truly he is. But remember, my God, will cleans His people and destroy you. Shit. You are not even worthy of being that.

Warrior wrote:
"Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son."

Yep, Warrior wrote that - A direct translation from the New Testament.

Do you, jew, "respect other faiths and beliefs."? Nope. So don't try this holier than me crap.

I cannot answer why you needed a rabbi to get you a copy of the Talmud. Honestly, I don't know why you would want to buy volumes and volumes of books when you can buy a CD-Rom collection for less. What happened to you does not make sense to me. Look up talmud and CD. You will find it.

However, I would warn against selective reading. The talmud is a collection of many voices over many generations. But it would be wrong of me to deny you the talmud, even if you are an admitted antisemite. I would only encourage you not to jump to conclusions and rather speak with a rabbi or other learned individual about any troubling passage, as there are probably many passages relevant to that one.

Now what are you trying to say that we don't respect other faiths and beliefs? When faith is positive for someone it can be beautiful. When it is not positive for someone it can become very ugly. Sometimes it can be positive in some ways and negative in others, but a little poison can taint all of the water. This is true of all religions. Did my statement about the divinity of Jesus bother you? This is a thread in a Jewish forum on messianic Jews. I gave the Jewish view on messianic Jews and the reason for it. I could claim I was the messiah, but it wouldn't hold water and I would be a false messiah. And even if somebody did believe me, when I died they would know the truth because nothing would have been fulfilled. No peace for the world, no gathering of all of the Jewish people, etc etc. And when the messiah comes he will not be worshipped.

There is nothing hateful in being critical. And if we hate other faiths, how could I possibly allow myself to use the BDB, a Christian lexicon, own a copy of the Tao Te Ching, or try to understand the validity of the possible connections between Abraham and Brahma, Sarah and Saraisvati? My rabbi was encouraging me to read a book called The Jew in the Lotus, which itself is about a meeting between Buddhists including the Dalai Lama and a group of Jewish leaders from all denominations. This does not seem like hate. Oh, and let us not forget the Jewish groups who went down South to help repair burned churches.

Ben

vinceneilsgirl

07-23-2004, 03:39 PM

the dauer

07-23-2004, 09:00 PM

I don't know if any of you saw this, but Warrior also denies the fact that the Holocaust happend. He calls it the "Holohaux", call the survivors liars, and calls the pictures and other evidence to be non-evidence. Go to this thread to see what I mean...

http://hipforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15784&page=1&pp=10

Thank you vinceneilsgirl. I saw that thread a few days ago. I'm not really concerned with whether Warrior's claims are legitimate or not. I just don't want them to be the last word in the Judaism threads. Maybe it would be easier not to answer him, but at least it allows me to show everyone else how and why his arguements are not true. Whether this is of value or not, I do not know. For now I'll just keep on keepin on.

Dauer

vinceneilsgirl

07-24-2004, 01:47 AM

Thank you vinceneilsgirl. I saw that thread a few days ago. I'm not really concerned with whether Warrior's claims are legitimate or not. I just don't want them to be the last word in the Judaism threads. Maybe it would be easier not to answer him, but at least it allows me to show everyone else how and why his arguements are not true. Whether this is of value or not, I do not know. For now I'll just keep on keepin on.

Dauer

:) It IS of value to show others just how wrong he is. He isn't using facts or logic and is blinded by hate. When someone doesn't accept pictures of emaciated prisoners and piles of dead bodies as proof it is safe to assume that hate has made them blind.

I know some would say; "Free speech means he can say whatever he wants". But people need to realize that he isn't just spewing an opinon here, he's denying facts and using that denial to try to entice others to hate. Hate speech isn't free speech.

feministhippy

08-11-2004, 06:26 AM

And he also said that we're liars by saying we respect other people's religions. That's bull. One person disrespecting my beliefs will never take away my respect for a whole faith. Many people disrespecting my beliefs will never take away my respect for a whole faith. Because all religions are also full of decent people just like me going about their lives, just like me. People are people, regardless of creed. Why would saying I respect them be lying? Just because they chose a path that is different than mine? Am I only allowed to respect those of my own faith? I've never read that law. And the whole "Don't give me you're holier than thou bullshit" argument is silly- one person talks rationally to him as he shouts, and that's supposed to be taken as an insult?

This is just a 12 year old trying to get attention. I highly doubt this guy believed one word of what he was saying.

SpiralSpirit

08-16-2004, 09:18 AM

Sunflower73

08-29-2004, 12:48 PM

jews for jesus is like vegans for cheeseburgers

Hahaha great analogy. I agree.

HuckFinn

12-13-2004, 11:52 PM

wait...if jesus says the jews are the sons of devils, and jesus was a jew, and jesus was the son of god, does that mean god is the devil, jesus is the son of the devil, and christianity is devil-worship?

or maybe im just confused.Jesus directed this accusation at the Jewish leaders and others who refused to believe in him, not the Jewish race as a whole. His point was that being a child of God depends on faith in him, rather than blood lineage.

Those condemn Messianic Judaism as a fraud overlook the fact that Christianity began as a Jewish sect. In fact, according to the book of Acts, it was a scandalous idea at the time that Gentiles could become Christians!

the dauer

12-14-2004, 01:59 AM

Jesus directed this accusation at the Jewish leaders and others who refused to believe in him, not the Jewish race as a whole.

Judaism is not a race. Never was. I like to think of us as a God-focused people. And all Jews refuse to believe in Jesus. Those who do not render become kareit, cut off. Of course because of the nature of Judaism they can do teshuva, returning or repentance, and come back to the fold.

His point was that being a child of God depends on faith in him, rather than blood lineage.

According to Judaism anyone can be in right with God, Jew or gentile. It's determined by right-action, which for gentiles is defined by the 7 laws of Noah. But basically we believe that the righteous of all nations have a place in the world-to-come. In addition to that, anyone can become a Jew. There's even a book dedicated to a convert: Ruth. Conversion is sometimes discouraged because it's easier to be a good gentile than a good Jew. Jews have more expected of them.

Those condemn Messianic Judaism as a fraud overlook the fact that Christianity began as a Jewish sect.

Yes, originally Christianity was something Jewish. But like all Jews know, the messiah is only a person, and if he dies and all of the messianic prophesies have not been fulfilled, he's not the messiah. Paul's work among the Romans however, was much more successful. That's where you get pagan myth like that of the dying god introduced into the system.

The problem with messianics is that they're trying to practice the way Jesus would have, or even to have Jewish beliefs, which would mean accepting Jesus is not in any way divine. It wouldn't be so horrible if they said he was the messiah -- in the Jewish sense -- because then they'd just be wrong. But they're taking modern Judaism, meaning practices that have evolved over time and modern customs, and mixing in entirely Christian doctrine, even changing the reasons for what's being done. The goal of some of these groups, like Jews4Jesus, is entirely missionary. So no, I do not approve. And yes, messianic Judaism is a complete fraud. I make no apologies for my views.

In fact, according to the book of Acts, it was a scandalous idea at the time that Gentiles could become Christians!

Of course it was! Why would the Jews want Christians bringing more and more people into their heresy?

I don't have a problem with Christianity and I don't want to give that impression. I do have a problem with Christians putting on talis and tefillin, davening to a three-person godhead, one of whom was supposedly once mortal, and calling it Judaism, all the while calling Jews who join them "complete" Jews.

:(

Not right.

Dauer

HuckFinn

12-14-2004, 07:08 PM

Judaism is not a race. Never was. I like to think of us as a God-focused people.This point had obviously been lost on a number of Jewish leaders in Jesus' time.

And all Jews refuse to believe in Jesus. Those who do not render become kareit, cut off. Of course because of the nature of Judaism they can do teshuva, returning or repentance, and come back to the fold.It's pretty sad that Judaism has come to be defined by rejecting Jesus as Messiah. Are Jewish atheists, Buddhists, Hindus, etc. judged as harshly as Messianic Jews? To my knowledge, all can easily become Israeli citizens except Messianic Jews or Semitic Muslims, i.e. Palestinians.

According to Judaism anyone can be in right with God, Jew or gentile. It's determined by right-action, which for gentiles is defined by the 7 laws of Noah. But basically we believe that the righteous of all nations have a place in the world-to-come. In addition to that, anyone can become a Jew. There's even a book dedicated to a convert: Ruth. Conversion is sometimes discouraged because it's easier to be a good gentile than a good Jew. Jews have more expected of them.So you believe that salvation can be earned by good works? What was the purpose of the Levitical priesthood, and why are sacrifices no longer necessary?

Yes, originally Christianity was something Jewish. But like all Jews know, the messiah is only a person, and if he dies and all of the messianic prophesies have not been fulfilled, he's not the messiah. Paul's work among the Romans however, was much more successful. That's where you get pagan myth like that of the dying god introduced into the system.If the Messiah was only human, how do you explain prophecies that identify him with God, such as Is. 9:6 and Zech. 12:10, or the fact that David addressed him as "lord" in Ps. 110? Moreover, if the Messiah was not to die, what do you do with Ps. 22, Is. 53, Zech. 12:10, and Dan. 9:26? Also, how could a mere man bring about prophecied world peace, and how would he remove the sins of God's people, as taught in Zech. 3?

Of course, the Christian answer is that the Messiah came first to reconcile people to God and that he will come again to vanquish evil and death and to judge all who refuse to be reconciled to him. Interestingly, when Jesus quoted Is. 61 in reference to himself, he stopped in mid-sentence, indicating that the "day of vengeance" was yet to come (Lk. 4:16-21).

The problem with messianics is that they're trying to practice the way Jesus would have, or even to have Jewish beliefs, which would mean accepting Jesus is not in any way divine. It wouldn't be so horrible if they said he was the messiah -- in the Jewish sense -- because then they'd just be wrong.Except that Jesus himself clearly claimed to be divine, which is why he was killed. One cannot accept his Messianic claims while rejecting his divinity.

But they're taking modern Judaism, meaning practices that have evolved over time and modern customs, and mixing in entirely Christian doctrine, even changing the reasons for what's being done. The goal of some of these groups, like Jews4Jesus, is entirely missionary. So no, I do not approve. And yes, messianic Judaism is a complete fraud. I make no apologies for my views.You see no Messianic element in customs such as Passover? Do you have any theology of atonement?

Of course it was! Why would the Jews want Christians bringing more and more people into their heresy?Would they prefer that these Gentiles remain pagans? Actually, though, it was Messianic Jews (including the apostles themselves) who were shocked at the idea of God welcoming Gentiles without subjecting them to the Mosaic Law.

I don't have a problem with Christianity and I don't want to give that impression. I do have a problem with Christians putting on talis and tefillin, davening to a three-person godhead, one of whom was supposedly once mortal, and calling it Judaism, all the while calling Jews who join them "complete" Jews.First, Jesus' deity was never mortal; rather, he took on a fully human nature while remaining fully divine. Second, Messianic prophecy is central to Jewish faith. If Jesus is the Messiah, then "complete" Jews is an apt term for those who believe in him. You might disagree with them, but it is unfair to disparage their character and motives.

the dauer

12-14-2004, 10:35 PM

This point had obviously been lost on a number of Jewish leaders in Jesus' time.

According to what source? The gospels are mostly propaganda and polemic, and I wouldn't rely on them for accurate history anymore than I would the books of the Tanakh -- yes I am a liberal.

It's pretty sad that Judaism has come to be defined by rejecting Jesus as Messiah. Are Jewish atheists, Buddhists, Hindus, etc. judged as harshly as Messianic Jews? To my knowledge, all can easily become Israeli citizens except Messianic Jews or Semitic Muslims, i.e. Palestinians.

The problem with Jews accepting Jesus is that it is a) idolatry by suggesting God is something in physical space and b) blaspheme because of the trinity. And the problem with Messianic Judaism is that it is not a Jewish organization. It was started by fundamentalist Christians in order to gain more Jewish converts. Here's that coming from a Christian source.This is a Christian admission of the role of "messianic Judaism":

http://www.pcusa.org/ga216/business/overtures/ovt0468.htm

You choose to define Judaism as "rejecting Jesus." That is your decision. If Hindus were trying to convert Jews, I would be just as wary of their actions. Luckily, most religions don't have such universalist views that they must make everyone else like them.

So you believe that salvation can be earned by good works? What was the purpose of the Levitical priesthood, and why are sacrifices no longer necessary?

The qorbanot -- qorban is the Hebrew word for sacrifice which actually means to come close or draw near as in an intimate encounter with God -- ended because the Temple was destroyed. It was only used for specific transgressions. But just as there was no need for them in Daniel's time, there's no need for them in ours. As far as textual support that we don't actually need sacrifices -- most of which had nothing to do with atonement:

if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land. [2 Chronicles 7:14]

But if from there you seek the Eternal your God, you will find him if you look for him with all your heart and with all your soul. [Deuteronomy 4:29]

He prays to God and finds favor with him, he sees God's face and shouts for joy; he is restored by God to his righteous state. [Job 33:26]

Turn from evil and do good; seek peace and pursue it. [Psalm 34:14]

The Eternal is close to the brokenhearted and saves those who are crushed in spirit. [Psalm 34:18]

You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it; you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise. [Psalm 51:16-17]

Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but my ears you have pierced; burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not require. [Psalm 40:6]

Take words with you and return to the Eternal. Say to him: "Forgive all our sins and receive us graciously, that we may offer the bulls of our lips. [Hosea 14:2]

He who conceals his sins does not prosper, but whoever confesses and renounces them finds mercy. [Proverbs 28:13]

Through love and faithfulness sin is atoned for; through the fear of the Eternal a man avoids evil. [Proverbs 16:6]

To do what is right and just is more acceptable to the Eternal than sacrifice. [Proverbs 21:3]

For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings. [Hosea 6:6]

The Eternal is close to the brokenhearted and saves those who are crushed in spirit. [Psalm 34:18]

He prays to God and finds favor with him, he sees God's face and shouts for joy; he is restored by God to his righteous state. [Job 33:26]

With what shall I come before the Eternal and bow down before the exalted God? Shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves a year old? Will the Eternal be pleased with thousands of rams, with ten thousand rivers of oil? Shall I offer my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? He has showed you, O man, what is good. And what does the Eternal require of you? Only to do Justice, and to love Mercy and to walk humbly with your God. [Micah 6:6-8]

According to the Orthodox, when the Temple is rebuilt after the moshiach comes we will again have qorbanot

If the Messiah was only human, how do you explain prophecies that identify him with God, such as Is. 9:6 and Zech. 12:10

Is. 9:6 is a Christian mistranslation that is taken out of context. See here:

http://messiahtruth.com/isa9.html

I'm sorry. What does Zech 12:10 have to do with anything? That may be another mistranslation on the part of Christianity because I see nothing of relevance.

, or the fact that David addressed him as "lord" in Ps. 110?

Lord is a pretty common word in Hebrew, and many people are called that, but for a word-by-word analysis see:

http://www.messiahtruth.com/ps110.html

Moreover, if the Messiah was not to die, what do you do with Ps. 22,

Huge translational errors there. It's not messianic. It's David speaking about himself. Another link.

http://www.messiahtruth.com/psa22.html

Is. 53,

The servant is Israel. Israel is called the servant throughout Isaiah. You can reread the whole book if you want. But if you'd like a guide to your reading:

http://www.messiahtruth.com/isa53intro.html

Zech. 12:10,

You said that already. I have no idea what that has to do with anything.

and Dan. 9:26?

Dan 9 is complicated. Luckily, Rashi was a very smart man. This is the text with all of Rashi's commentary.

http://www1.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=16492&showrashi=true

Also, how could a mere man bring about prophecied world peace, and how would he remove the sins of God's people, as taught in Zech. 3?

Now I will ask some questions. How did Moses part the sea? How did Elijah light the wood on fire? The Tanakh is filled with miracles, and none of these people had special powers. It was always God. God does not need to limit Himself to time and space in order to get things done. And if you look at Zech 3.9 it says "...I will execute its engraving -- declares the LORD of Hosts -- and I will remove the country's guilt in a single day."

It's not the moshiach who does it. It's God!

Of course, the Christian answer is that the Messiah came first to reconcile people to God and that he will come again to vanquish evil and death and to judge all who refuse to be reconciled to him.

According to Judaism when the moshiach comes, if the world is all evil it will be a "difficult birth" and if the world is all good it will be an "easy birth." -- not of the moshiach but of the age that comes with him -- which is not to say the world will be all one or the other, but it will be closer to one of these extremes. Either way, eventually there will be world peace and the nations will no longer fight with each other. The Temple will be rebuilt etc. Some of it is vague. I don't have strong beliefs about the moshiach as I am very liberal. Some Jews feel we can bring the time of the moshiach closer through our actions.

Except that Jesus himself clearly claimed to be divine, which is why he was killed. One cannot accept his Messianic claims while rejecting his divinity.

Jesus contradicts himself sometimes, doesn't he?

Matthew 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? [17] And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], G-d: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. (KJV)

Mark 10:17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? [18] And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], G-d. (KJV)

You see no Messianic element in customs such as Passover? Do you have any theology of atonement?

The emphasis in Judaism is on right-action and not sin, but yes we do have a theology of atonement. It's based on right action, and making good on the wrongs we've done. a) what does "messianic element" have to do with "messianic Judaism?" The idea of a moshiach does appear in Judaism, just in a very different form than it does in Christianity. No, I don't see anything messianic about Pesach. and b) There's a difference between recognizing existing messianic material and saying that the afikomen represents Jesus. I suppose "next year in Jerusalem" may have originally been a messianic idea. That's not what I'm challenging. It's things like changing the meaning of the afikomen to reflect Christology that I have a problem with.

Would they prefer that these Gentiles remain pagans?

Me personally? I could care less. I think it has more to do with making Judaism profane than anything else. Luckily, the heresy broke off completely and became Rome. Actually, considering what the Church did with its power, that was probably a bad thing. Then again, if not the Christians, it could have been the followers of Mithras in power. I really don't know how History would have worked out otherwise.

Actually, though, it was Messianic Jews (including the apostles themselves) who were shocked at the idea of God welcoming Gentiles without subjecting them to the Mosaic Law.

Messianic Jew is a modern term. Please do not confuse it with the apostles, of whom we really have no information. Are you familiar with modern scholarship on the authors of the gospels? They were probably written after the epistles. I wouldn't call it "subjecting." That term only works if mosaic law is a bad thing. Christianity tries to make it look that way in order to justify its existence but the fact is that like many other religions in the world it is quite beautiful. It's really not about God welcoming gentiles without subjecting them to "mosaic law." It's more about a particular group deciding it's okay to call yourself Jewish without following the path of the mitzvot, actually accepting pagan rituals and mythology in its place.

It's like what's happening now with so-called "messianic Judaism."

Second, Messianic prophecy is central to Jewish faith.

Central? No. A part of? Sure.

If Jesus is the Messiah, then "complete" Jews is an apt term for those who believe in him.

What happens when the moshiach comes? Tell me how Jesus stacks up.

¥ The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with Òfear of G-dÓ. (Isaiah 11:2)
¥ Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership. (Isaiah 11:4)
¥ He will be descended from David HaMelech (Isaiah 11:1) via Solomon (1 Chron. 22:8-10)
¥ Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4).
¥ He will be a messenger of peace. (Isaiah 52:7)
¥ There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8 ).
¥ Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)
¥ Knowledge of G-d will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9).
¥ The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23).
¥ All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19).
¥ Jews will have returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)
¥ The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11).
¥ The Sanhedrin will be re-established. (Isaiah 1:26)
¥ The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55).
¥ The Temple will be rebuilt (Ezekiel 40) resuming many of the suspended mitzvos.
¥ The whole world will worship the One G-d of Israel. (Isaiah 2:17)

http://www.kosherjudaism.com/moshiach.pdf

Also, belief in the moshiach will never complete somebody. You make it much more important than it is. There is something in the Talmud that says if you are holding a sapling and someone tells you the moshiach has come, plant it first and then go find out. The most important thing to believe in is God. The messiah's just another person, maybe as righteous as Moses. Who knows?

You might disagree with them, but it is unfair to disparage their character and motives.

I am not disparaging their character and motives. I am helping to show what they're really about. On J4J:

http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/j4jlibrary/jewsforjesus.html

General info on "messianic Judaism":

http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/j4jlibrary/messianicjudaism.html

I know I've been posting a lot of links. You're mentioning a lot of things. If you mention less, I will probably discuss more in-thread.

Dauer

HuckFinn

12-15-2004, 08:24 PM

The problem with Jews accepting Jesus is that it is a) idolatry by suggesting God is something in physical space
God didn't cease to be transcendent in the Incarnation. This is admittedly the most mysterious of all Christian teachings, but both the Old and New Testaments consistently affirm that nothing is impossible for God and that his ways are incomprehensible to finite man.

and b) blaspheme because of the trinity.
See:

http://www.jewsforjesus.org/answers/qa/karoltrinity.htm

http://www.jewsforjesus.org/library/issues/01-08/jewish.htm

http://www.jewsforjesus.org/library/issues/10-08/trinity.htm

And the problem with Messianic Judaism is that it is not a Jewish organization. It was started by fundamentalist Christians in order to gain more Jewish converts.
It was founded and continues to be run by Jews who believe that Jesus is their Messiah and who have a passion to share this truth with their brethren.

Here's that coming from a Christian source.This is a Christian admission of the role of "messianic Judaism":
http://www.pcusa.org/ga216/business/overtures/ovt0468.htm
This looks like a repudiation of the universality of the gospel by a characteristically liberal mainline denomination.

You choose to define Judaism as "rejecting Jesus." That is your decision. If Hindus were trying to convert Jews, I would be just as wary of their actions.
You didn't answer my question. Are Jewish Hindus typically "cut off" from the larger Jewish community in the way that Messianic Jews are?

Luckily, most religions don't have such universalist views that they must make everyone else like them.
Only your liberalism allows you to say this. The Hebrew Scriptures are quite "intolerant" of other religions.

The qorbanot -- qorban is the Hebrew word for sacrifice which actually means to come close or draw near as in an intimate encounter with God -- ended because the Temple was destroyed. It was only used for specific transgressions.
What about Yom Kippur, the Most Holy Place, and the scapegoat? There seems to be clear recognition that man is separated from God by sin. Even a righteous prophet like Isaiah realized this (Is. 6:1-7).

But just as there was no need for them in Daniel's time, there's no need for them in ours.
Could it be that the Jews have been "exiled" (as in Daniel's time) for their rejection of the Messiah?

As far as textual support that we don't actually need sacrifices --
Many of the passages you cite here are quoted in the New Testament, particularly the book of Hebrews. I agree that ritual sacrifices are not what ultimately matter to God, but the only reason they are no longer required is because of Jesus' perfect life and sacrifice on our behalf.

According to the Orthodox, when the Temple is rebuilt after the moshiach comes we will again have qorbanot
Why would such sacrifices be needed in the perfect Messianic age?

Is. 9:6 is a Christian mistranslation that is taken out of context. See here:
http://messiahtruth.com/isa9.html
Right back at ya:
http://www.journalofbiblicalstudies.org/Issue1/Articles/linkage_between_isaiah_7.htm

I'm sorry. What does Zech 12:10 have to do with anything? That may be another mistranslation on the part of Christianity because I see nothing of relevance.
See http://www.jewsforjesus.org/answers/qa/Zech1210.htm.

Lord is a pretty common word in Hebrew, and many people are called that, but for a word-by-word analysis see:
http://www.messiahtruth.com/ps110.html
Even if it only means "master," why would David apply it to one of his descendants? And what does it mean that the Messiah would be a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek?

Also, check out http://www.jewsforjesus.org/library/issues/01-09/son.htm.

Huge translational errors there. It's not messianic. It's David speaking about himself. Another link.
http://www.messiahtruth.com/psa22.html
See http://www.gospelcom.net/rbc/ds/q1208/point3.html. Prophecies often have multiple layers of meaning.

The servant is Israel. Israel is called the servant throughout Isaiah. You can reread the whole book if you want. But if you'd like a guide to your reading:
http://www.messiahtruth.com/isa53intro.html
It is true that Isaiah often refers to the nation of Israel as God's servant, but such a reading of Is. 53 just doesn't work. It is implausible to argue that he inexplicably switches to narrating from a Gentile perspective in v. 5-8! This is not only a Herculean leap of logic, it's a departure from historic Jewish interpretation:

http://www.jewsforjesus.org/library/issues/02-05/Isaiah53.htm

http://www.jewsforjesus.org/answers/qa/Isaiah53.htm

http://www.jewsforjesus.org/library/issues/07-09/prophetrabbis.htm

Your link conveniently ignores Is. 49:6, which clearly teaches that the mission of the servant was to restore the people of Israel, as well as the Gentiles. How could Israel restore itself?

Dan 9 is complicated. Luckily, Rashi was a very smart man. This is the text with all of Rashi's commentary.
http://www1.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=16492&showrashi=true
The Anointed One is King Agrippa? That seems untenable. When did this idea originate?

Now I will ask some questions. How did Moses part the sea? How did Elijah light the wood on fire? The Tanakh is filled with miracles, and none of these people had special powers. It was always God. God does not need to limit Himself to time and space in order to get things done. And if you look at Zech 3.9 it says "...I will execute its engraving -- declares the LORD of Hosts -- and I will remove the country's guilt in a single day."
It's not the moshiach who does it. It's God!
So, how do you believe that God will remove the sin of his people in a single day?

According to Judaism when the moshiach comes, if the world is all evil it will be a "difficult birth" and if the world is all good it will be an "easy birth." -- not of the moshiach but of the age that comes with him -- which is not to say the world will be all one or the other, but it will be closer to one of these extremes. Either way, eventually there will be world peace and the nations will no longer fight with each other. The Temple will be rebuilt etc. Some of it is vague. I don't have strong beliefs about the moshiach as I am very liberal. Some Jews feel we can bring the time of the moshiach closer through our actions.
How will human nature be changed in order to bring about this perfect kingdom?

Jesus contradicts himself sometimes, doesn't he?
Matthew 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? [17] And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], G-d: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. (KJV)
Mark 10:17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? [18] And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], G-d. (KJV)
Here's an excellent sermon on the parallel passage of Luke:
http://www.communityefc.org/cgi-bin/download.cgi?download=2002/CEFC_2002022400_16kbps_mono.mp3

The emphasis in Judaism is on right-action and not sin, but yes we do have a theology of atonement. It's based on right action, and making good on the wrongs we've done.
In other words, we must atone for our own sin? I submit that this is impossible. See Ps. 32:1-5 & 130.

a) what does "messianic element" have to do with "messianic Judaism?" The idea of a moshiach does appear in Judaism, just in a very different form than it does in Christianity. No, I don't see anything messianic about Pesach. and b) There's a difference between recognizing existing messianic material and saying that the afikomen represents Jesus. I suppose "next year in Jerusalem" may have originally been a messianic idea. That's not what I'm challenging. It's things like changing the meaning of the afikomen to reflect Christology that I have a problem with.
The symbolism of Passover is hard to miss. God executes judgment on the sins of Egypt, but he “passes over” the families of his faithful remnant based on the blood of a sacrificial lamb, though they were by no means worthy of such mercy (Dt. 9).

Messianic Jew is a modern term. Please do not confuse it with the apostles, of whom we really have no information. Are you familiar with modern scholarship on the authors of the gospels? They were probably written after the epistles.
See http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/bib-docu.html.

I wouldn't call it "subjecting." That term only works if mosaic law is a bad thing. Christianity tries to make it look that way in order to justify its existence but the fact is that like many other religions in the world it is quite beautiful. It's really not about God welcoming gentiles without subjecting them to "mosaic law." It's more about a particular group deciding it's okay to call yourself Jewish without following the path of the mitzvot, actually accepting pagan rituals and mythology in its place.
Only a devoutly Orthodox Jew could say this with any credibility. Christians can at least explain theologically why we don’t follow Mosaic Law. Liberal Judaism has little connection to the Hebrew Scriptures.

¥ The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with Òfear of G-dÓ. (Isaiah 11:2)
The only charge Jesus’ enemies could make against him was to accuse him of blasphemy for claiming to be God’s Son.

¥ Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership. (Isaiah 11:4)
He certainly challenged the corruption of the ruling authorities.

¥ He will be descended from David HaMelech (Isaiah 11:1) via Solomon (1 Chron. 22:8-10)
See http://www.jewsforjesus.org/library/issues/05-06/genealogy.htm.

¥ Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4).
His kingdom is not yet fully consummated on Earth.

¥ He will be a messenger of peace. (Isaiah 52:7)
He was.

¥ There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8 ).
¥ Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)
¥ Knowledge of G-d will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9).
¥ The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23).
¥ All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19).
¥ Jews will have returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)
¥ The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11).
¥ The Sanhedrin will be re-established. (Isaiah 1:26)
¥ The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55).
¥ The Temple will be rebuilt (Ezekiel 40) resuming many of the suspended mitzvos.
¥ The whole world will worship the One G-d of Israel. (Isaiah 2:17)
He rules now in the hearts of his people, and he will restore perfect harmony to creation when he returns, after all people have had the opportunity to willingly become part of his kingdom.

I believe the temple, Sanhedrin, and homeland are symbolic references to his church, which the New Testament describes as “spiritual Israel.”

Also, belief in the moshiach will never complete somebody. You make it much more important than it is. There is something in the Talmud that says if you are holding a sapling and someone tells you the moshiach has come, plant it first and then go find out. The most important thing to believe in is God. The messiah's just another person, maybe as righteous as Moses. Who knows?
I really don’t care what the Talmud says. The Old Testament is essentially a messianic book, all the way back to God’s promise to Eve that her offspring would crush the serpent’s head.

I am not disparaging their character and motives. I am helping to show what they're really about. On J4J:
http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/j4jlibrary/jewsforjesus.html
General info on "messianic Judaism":
http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/j4jlibrary/messianicjudaism.html
For the sake of balance and fairness, here’s their side of the story:

http://www.jewsforjesus.org/library/issues/10-01/canitbe.htm

I know I've been posting a lot of links. You're mentioning a lot of things. If you mention less, I will probably discuss more in-thread.
I’m obviously not averse to doing the same!

Sephardic-male

12-15-2004, 09:52 PM

God didn't cease to be transcendent in the Incarnation. This is admittedly the most mysterious of all Christian teachings, but both the Old and New Testaments consistently affirm that nothing is impossible for God and that his ways are incomprehensible to finite man.

See:

http://www.jewsforjesus.org/answers/qa/karoltrinity.htm

http://www.jewsforjesus.org/library/issues/01-08/jewish.htm

http://www.jewsforjesus.org/library/issues/10-08/trinity.htm

It was founded and continues to be run by Jews who believe that Jesus is their Messiah and who have a passion to share this truth with their brethren.

This looks like a repudiation of the universality of the gospel by a characteristically liberal mainline denomination.

You didn't answer my question. Are Jewish Hindus typically "cut off" from the larger Jewish community in the way that Messianic Jews are?

Only your liberalism allows you to say this. The Hebrew Scriptures are quite "intolerant" of other religions.

What about Yom Kippur, the Most Holy Place, and the scapegoat? There seems to be clear recognition that man is separated from God by sin. Even a righteous prophet like Isaiah realized this (Is. 6:1-7).

Could it be that the Jews have been "exiled" (as in Daniel's time) for their rejection of the Messiah?

Many of the passages you cite here are quoted in the New Testament, particularly the book of Hebrews. I agree that ritual sacrifices are not what ultimately matter to God, but the only reason they are no longer required is because of Jesus' perfect life and sacrifice on our behalf.

Why would such sacrifices be needed in the perfect Messianic age?

Right back at ya:
http://www.journalofbiblicalstudies.org/Issue1/Articles/linkage_between_isaiah_7.htm

See http://www.jewsforjesus.org/answers/qa/Zech1210.htm.

Even if it only means "master," why would David apply it to one of his descendants? And what does it mean that the Messiah would be a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek?

Also, check out http://www.jewsforjesus.org/library/issues/01-09/son.htm.

See http://www.gospelcom.net/rbc/ds/q1208/point3.html. Prophecies often have multiple layers of meaning.

It is true that Isaiah often refers to the nation of Israel as God's servant, but such a reading of Is. 53 just doesn't work. It is implausible to argue that he inexplicably switches to narrating from a Gentile perspective in v. 5-8! This is not only a Herculean leap of logic, it's a departure from historic Jewish interpretation:

http://www.jewsforjesus.org/library/issues/02-05/Isaiah53.htm

http://www.jewsforjesus.org/answers/qa/Isaiah53.htm

http://www.jewsforjesus.org/library/issues/07-09/prophetrabbis.htm

Your link conveniently ignores Is. 49:6, which clearly teaches that the mission of the servant was to restore the people of Israel, as well as the Gentiles. How could Israel restore itself?

The Anointed One is King Agrippa? That seems untenable. When did this idea originate?

So, how do you believe that God will remove the sin of his people in a single day?

How will human nature be changed in order to bring about this perfect kingdom?

Here's an excellent sermon on the parallel passage of Luke:
http://www.communityefc.org/cgi-bin/download.cgi?download=2002/CEFC_2002022400_16kbps_mono.mp3

In other words, we must atone for our own sin? I submit that this is impossible. See Ps. 32:1-5 & 130.

The symbolism of Passover is hard to miss. God executes judgment on the sins of Egypt, but he “passes over” the families of his faithful remnant based on the blood of a sacrificial lamb, though they were by no means worthy of such mercy (Dt. 9).

See http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/bib-docu.html.

Only a devoutly Orthodox Jew could say this with any credibility. Christians can at least explain theologically why we don’t follow Mosaic Law. Liberal Judaism has little connection to the Hebrew Scriptures.

The only charge Jesus’ enemies could make against him was to accuse him of blasphemy for claiming to be God’s Son.

He certainly challenged the corruption of the ruling authorities.

See http://www.jewsforjesus.org/library/issues/05-06/genealogy.htm.

His kingdom is not yet fully consummated on Earth.

He was.

He rules now in the hearts of his people, and he will restore perfect harmony to creation when he returns, after all people have had the opportunity to willingly become part of his kingdom.

I believe the temple, Sanhedrin, and homeland are symbolic references to his church, which the New Testament describes as “spiritual Israel.”

I really don’t care what the Talmud says. The Old Testament is essentially a messianic book, all the way back to God’s promise to Eve that her offspring would crush the serpent’s head.

For the sake of balance and fairness, here’s their side of the story:

http://www.jewsforjesus.org/library/issues/10-01/canitbe.htm

I’m obviously not averse to doing the same!

Judaism version of the Moshiach say nothing about the second coming or dwelling in people's hearts. and jewsfor jesus are a bunch of lying scumbags pretending to be jews and most of them are not jewish and don't come fom jewish families. the moshiach have only one chance

HuckFinn

12-15-2004, 10:37 PM

Judaism version of the Moshiach say nothing about the second comingSee http://www.jewsforjesus.org/library/issues/05-08/firstthings.htm.

or dwelling in people's hearts.What about Jer. 31:31-34, Eze. 36:25-27, or the recurring theme throughout Isaiah that he would turn the hearts of Israel (and the Gentiles) toward God?

Sephardic-male

12-15-2004, 10:53 PM

it is G-d himself who going to do that Job:

Jer 31
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

this is not about Jesus

http://jdstone.org/cr/pages/sss_jere.html

and Why do you leave out the rest of Ezekiel 36 which is about the gathering of the exiles back to israel and turning it into a garden something which Jesus failed to do?????????????????????

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. 25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. 28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. 29 I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you. 30 And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen. 31 Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations. 32 Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel. 33 Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded. 34 And the desolate land shall be tilled, whereas it lay desolate in the sight of all that passed by. 35 And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited. 36 Then the heathen that are left round about you shall know that I the LORD build the ruined places, and plant that that was desolate: I the LORD have spoken it, and I will do it. 37 Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will yet for this be enquired of by the house of Israel, to do it for them; I will increase them with men like a flock. 38 As the holy flock, as the flock of Jerusalem in her solemn feasts; so shall the waste cities be filled with flocks of men: and they shall know that I am the LORD.

and during this time the whole world will know the true creator G-d and Israel currently is in a bad shape so this has not come to past yet

HuckFinn

12-15-2004, 11:18 PM

God is still in the process of renewing hearts and drawing people to faith in Jesus. That must be completed before this present evil order is overthrown by the Messianic kingdom (Mt. 13:24-30).

the dauer

12-16-2004, 04:02 AM

You didn't answer my question. Are Jewish Hindus typically "cut off" from the larger Jewish community in the way that Messianic Jews are?

It's not a matter of a decision Jews make. They become kareit. Yes, it applies to Jews who become Hindus too.

Only your liberalism allows you to say this. The Hebrew Scriptures are quite "intolerant" of other religions.

Not true. Judaism does not try to make other religions Jews. It cares about the way Jews treat each other and the way they treat non-Jews, but it's not interested in making other people Jewish. It makes it possible, but it's not a priority. The righteous of all nations have a place in the world to come. Everybody on this planet has a reason for being, but the Jewish reason is traditionally linked to the mitzvot. You can attack my liberalism all you want, but perhaps before you do you should learn a little more about what the traditional position is. Try Jewfaq for that information.

Many of the passages you cite here are quoted in the New Testament, particularly the book of Hebrews. I agree that ritual sacrifices are not what ultimately matter to God, but the only reason they are no longer required is because of Jesus' perfect life and sacrifice on our behalf.

Can you prove this using only the Tanakh, and by Tanakh I mean the Hebrew or direct translations from the Hebrew?

Why would such sacrifices be needed in the perfect Messianic age?

According to the traditional position the only qorbanot will be for unintentional things.

The Anointed One is King Agrippa? That seems untenable. When did this idea originate?

With Daniel. Daniel is not one of the books of the prophets in the Jewish canon. It was moved by the Church to support its aims.

So, how do you believe that God will remove the sin of his people in a single day?

Me personally? My views are in conflict with the traditional ones on the issue of the moshiach as well as a couple other things. Think for a moment though, about what you just asked. How does God accomplish anything? He is God!

The symbolism of Passover is hard to miss. God executes judgment on the sins of Egypt, but he Òpasses overÓ the families of his faithful remnant based on the blood of a sacrificial lamb, though they were by no means worthy of such mercy (Dt. 9).

You're working in the wrong direction. The idea of the paschal lamb existed first. Christianity chose to use older symbols to make a statement after. Also, there is nothing that suggests the messiah will die for our sins.

Only a devoutly Orthodox Jew could say this with any credibility. Christians can at least explain theologically why we donÕt follow Mosaic Law. Liberal Judaism has little connection to the Hebrew Scriptures.

That entire statement is falacious. Liberal Judaism is not a movement. Conservative Judaism follows all of the mitzvot, it just interprets some differently than the Orthodox. The reform took a more radical stance and originally said only the moral ones stood, but then it changed its tune and is now coming back to traditional practice. If you equate liberal with secular, then you are correct because they tend not to practice much of anything, but liberal does not mean secular and all religious Jews follow the mitzvot or have a theological reason for not following some of them.

I don't need to be orthodox to criticize you for calling the mitzvot a burden or for accusing the Messianics of being a wolf in sheep's clothing. I am a returner and you have no authority to decide which Jews have credibility and which do not.

I have read that in interfaith dialogue we must not make uneducated assumptions about the other person. You seem to know nothing about Judaism. Try to ask questions instead of making assumptions.

The only charge JesusÕ enemies could make against him was to accuse him of blasphemy for claiming to be GodÕs Son.

And of being a false prophet by suggesting they worship a God different than the one they had known, which would entitle him to the death penalty, which would stand even if he gave signs. That's the first that comes to my mind.

He certainly challenged the corruption of the ruling authorities.

How do you know? The Gospels are biased and do not agree with other histories.

He rules now in the hearts of his people, and he will restore perfect harmony to creation when he returns, after all people have had the opportunity to willingly become part of his kingdom.

Do you realize that probably everyone on the earth has had that opportunity and most have said, "no thank you. We're happy worshipping God in our own way."?

I believe the temple, Sanhedrin, and homeland are symbolic references to his church, which the New Testament describes as Òspiritual Israel.Ó

You're entitled to your beliefs, and I'm pleased you recognize that is all they are.

IÕm obviously not averse to doing the same!

I was actually suggesting we'd get along better without it.

Dauer

Sephardic-male

12-16-2004, 02:52 PM

God is still in the process of renewing hearts and drawing people to faith in Jesus. That must be completed before this present evil order is overthrown by the Messianic kingdom (Mt. 13:24-30).

WHERE IN THOSE SCRIPTURES I POSTED YOU SEE JESUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!????

Is it not I, the Lord, and there are no other gods besides Me, a just and saving God there is not besides Me. 22. Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth, for I am God, and there is no other. (Isaiah 45:21-22)

Do not trust in princes, in the son of men, who has no salvation. (Psalms 146:3)

“God is not a man that He should lie, nor is He a mortal that He should relent…” (Numbers 23:19 (Judaica Press Complete Tanakh)

the Strength of Israel will neither lie nor repent, forHe is not a man to repent." (1 Samuel 15:29)
“For He [God] is not man like me,” (Job 9:32)

“…for I am God and not a man.”(Hosea 11:9)

God’s Hebrew Bible also says that God does not change His mind:

“You have been shown, in order to know that the Lord He is God; there is none else besides Him.From the heavens, He let you hear His voice to instruct you, and upon the earth He showed you His great fire, and you heard His words out of the midst of the fire” (Deuteronomy 4:35-36)

And you shall know this day and consider it in your heart, that the Lord He is God in heaven above, and upon the earth below; there is none else. (Deuteronomy 4:39)

“For I, the Lord, have not changed; and you, the sons of Jacob, have not reached the end.” (Malachi 3:6)

God says the Jews are His son.

“My son, My firstborn is Israel..." (Exodus 4:22)

“Thus says HaShem. Israel is My son, My firstborn” (Deuteronomy 4:22)

“When Israel was I child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called My son” (Hosea 11:1)

”He (Solomon) shall be a son to Me [G-d], and I a Father to him” (1 Chr 22:10)

He has said to me "You (David) are My son. Today I have begotten you. (Psalm 2:7)

And God repeated “I, too, will make him (David) a firstborn, supreme over the earth’s kings” (Psalms 89:27-28)

HuckFinn

12-16-2004, 06:12 PM

Not true. Judaism does not try to make other religions Jews. It cares about the way Jews treat each other and the way they treat non-Jews, but it's not interested in making other people Jewish. It makes it possible, but it's not a priority. The righteous of all nations have a place in the world to come. Everybody on this planet has a reason for being, but the Jewish reason is traditionally linked to the mitzvot. You can attack my liberalism all you want, but perhaps before you do you should learn a little more about what the traditional position is. Try Jewfaq for that information.The Old Testament is filled with accounts of Yahveh bringing judgment upon false gods and those who worship them. The repeatedly stated purpose of Yahveh's actions in human history is that all would know that he alone is God.

According to the traditional position the only qorbanot will be for unintentional things.So man will not be entirely perfected, but he will no longer willfully sin? How will this transformation of human nature be achieved?

With Daniel. Daniel is not one of the books of the prophets in the Jewish canon. It was moved by the Church to support its aims.To my knowledge, it is listed as canonical by both Josephus and Philo. Can you show me (a) evidence that it was not and (b) ancient commentaries that identify the Anointed One of chapter 9 as King Agrippa rather than the Messiah?

You're working in the wrong direction. The idea of the paschal lamb existed first. Christianity chose to use older symbols to make a statement after. Also, there is nothing that suggests the messiah will die for our sins.I'm saying that it's a typology that fits perfectly with Christian theology. What do you believe is the significance of the paschal lamb?

That entire statement is falacious. Liberal Judaism is not a movement. Conservative Judaism follows all of the mitzvot, it just interprets some differently than the Orthodox. The reform took a more radical stance and originally said only the moral ones stood, but then it changed its tune and is now coming back to traditional practice. If you equate liberal with secular, then you are correct because they tend not to practice much of anything, but liberal does not mean secular and all religious Jews follow the mitzvot or have a theological reason for not following some of them.It seems to me that the covenantal nature of the Mosaic Law precludes it from being abrogated by men; it must be superceded by God himself.

I don't need to be orthodox to criticize you for calling the mitzvot a burdenI suspect that many modern Jews would agree with me, and that this explains why it is no longer strictly followed.

or for accusing the Messianics of being a wolf in sheep's clothing.I haven't done this; you have. I suppose this is nothing new; the same charge was leveled against Jesus' first Jewish followers.

I am a returner and you have no authority to decide which Jews have credibility and which do not.

I have read that in interfaith dialogue we must not make uneducated assumptions about the other person. You seem to know nothing about Judaism. Try to ask questions instead of making assumptions.I don't claim to know much about Rabbinical Judaism, but I am quite familiar with biblical teaching. It is not highly regarded by most Jews I've met, even those who consider themselves religious. (The same is true of most mainline Protestants I've known.)

And of being a false prophet by suggesting they worship a God different than the one they had known, which would entitle him to the death penalty, which would stand even if he gave signs. That's the first that comes to my mind.You can only come to this conclusion if you've ruled out the possibility that his claims were true. When I look at his life and his teaching, nothing leads me to believe that he was a charlatan.

How do you know? The Gospels are biased and do not agree with other histories.I provided you a link that challenges this assertion, but you ignored it.

Do you realize that probably everyone on the earth has had that opportunity and most have said, "no thank you. We're happy worshipping God in our own way."?Only God himself can know when his full remant has come into the fold.

WHERE IN THOSE SCRIPTURES I POSTED YOU SEE JESUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!????

Is it not I, the Lord, and there are no other gods besides Me, a just and saving God there is not besides Me. 22. Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth, for I am God, and there is no other. (Isaiah 45:21-22)

Do not trust in princes, in the son of men, who has no salvation. (Psalms 146:3)

“God is not a man that He should lie, nor is He a mortal that He should relent…” (Numbers 23:19 (Judaica Press Complete Tanakh)

the Strength of Israel will neither lie nor repent, forHe is not a manto repent." (1 Samuel 15:29)
“For He [God] is not man like me,”(Job 9:32)

“…for I am God and not a man.”(Hosea 11:9)
Christians don't believe that God is a mere man. We believe that he took on human flesh in order to fully reveal himself to us, to bear the justly deserved punishment for our sins, and to triumph over death itself.

God’s Hebrew Bible also says that God does not change His mind:

“You have been shown, in order to know that the Lord He is God; there is none else besides Him.From the heavens, He let you hear His voice to instruct you, and upon the earth He showed you His great fire, and you heard His words out of the midst of the fire” (Deuteronomy 4:35-36)

And you shall know this day and consider it in your heart, that the Lord He is God in heaven above, and upon the earth below; there is none else.(Deuteronomy 4:39)

“For I, the Lord, have not changed; and you, the sons of Jacob, have not reached the end.” (Malachi 3:6)
We worship one God whose nature and character are unchanging.

God says the Jews are His son.

“My son, My firstborn is Israel..." (Exodus 4:22)

“Thus says HaShem. Israel is My son, My firstborn” (Deuteronomy 4:22)

“When Israel was I child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called My son” (Hosea 11:1)All of God's people are his children, but we are adopted. Jesus is eternally begotten. Read Jn. 1:1-18 & Heb. 1:3, and think about the Son as the word of God and the radiance of his glory.

”He (Solomon) shall be a son to Me [G-d], and I a Father to him” (1 Chr 22:10)

He has said to me "You (David) are My son. Today I have begotten you. (Psalm 2:7)

And God repeated “I, too, will make him (David) a firstborn, supreme over the earth’s kings” (Psalms 89:27-28)
These passages clearly have Messianic overtones. Obviously, David himself is not supreme over the earth's kings.

What do you make of Ps. 45:6, where this archetypal king is addressed as God?

Sephardic-male

12-16-2004, 06:27 PM

obviously huckfinn seems to have a reading problem NON OF THOSE VERS4ES ABOUT THE G-D'S SON IS ISRAEL IS PROPHETIC and Pslams about is about David's life and his love for G-d not a freaking prophetic book and here is the verses that missionaries ignore

According to the Hebrew Bible, the person who sins is the one who will die. Even using the Christian bible, it says the same thing―no one can die for the sins of another!

Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book. Exodus 32:32-33 (KJV)

The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin. Deuteronomy 24:16 (KJV)

Every man will die for his own sin!

In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge. Jeremiah 31:29-30 (KJV)

Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. Ezekiel 18:4 (KJV)

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. Ezekiel 18:20 (KJV) Repeats Verse 4 in Ezekiel 18. (above)

Then Ezekiel sums it up:

Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. Ezekiel 18:27-28 (KJV)

back to PS 45

Psalm 45 from NIV xtian bible

For the director of music. To the tune of "Lilies." Of the Sons of Korah. A maskil. A wedding song. [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=45&version=31#fen-NIV-14599a)]

1 My heart is stirred by a noble theme

as I recite my verses for the king;

my tongue is the pen of a skillful writer.

2 You are the most excellent of men

and your lips have been anointed with grace,

since God has blessed you forever.

3 Gird your sword upon your side, O mighty one;

clothe yourself with splendor and majesty.

4 In your majesty ride forth victoriously

in behalf of truth, humility and righteousness;

let your right hand display awesome deeds.

5 Let your sharp arrows pierce the hearts of the king's enemies;

let the nations fall beneath your feet.

6 Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;

a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.

7 You love righteousness and hate wickedness;

therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions

by anointing you with the oil of joy.

8 All your robes are fragrant with myrrh and aloes and cassia;

from palaces adorned with ivory

the music of the strings makes you glad.

9 Daughters of kings are among your honored women;

at your right hand is the royal bride in gold of Ophir.

10 Listen, O daughter, consider and give ear:

Forget your people and your father's house.

11 The king is enthralled by your beauty;

honor him, for he is your lord.

12 The Daughter of Tyre will come with a gift, [b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=45&version=31#fen-NIV-14610b)]

men of wealth will seek your favor.

13 All glorious is the princess within her chamber ;

her gown is interwoven with gold.

14 In embroidered garments she is led to the king;

her virgin companions follow her

and are brought to you.

15 They are led in with joy and gladness;

they enter the palace of the king.

16 Your sons will take the place of your fathers;

you will make them princes throughout the land.

17 I will perpetuate your memory through all generations;

therefore the nations will praise you for ever and ever.

Footnotes: <LI id=fen-NIV-14599a>Psalm 45:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=45&version=31#en-NIV-14599) Title: Probably a literary or musical term
Psalm 45:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=45&version=31#en-NIV-14610) Or A Tyrian robe is among the gifts

Ps 45 is a song

the dauer

12-16-2004, 07:15 PM

The Old Testament is filled with accounts of Hashem bringing judgment upon false gods and those who worship them. The repeatedly stated purpose of Yahveh's actions in human history is that all would know that he alone is God.

The judgement is brought upont the Jewish people for turning to other gods, not upon other nations who worship other gods. The other nations are accused because of their practices related to their religions, such as child sacrifice. Even the messianic ideal is only that Israel will be at peace with the other nations, not that everyone will be Jewish.

So man will not be entirely perfected, but he will no longer willfully sin? How will this transformation of human nature be achieved?

Pretty much. According to tradition we'll still be able to think for ourselves, we'll just no longer stray from the mitzvot. The mitzvot will be written on our hearts. But someone still might accidentally do something because nobody's perfect.

To my knowledge, it is listed as canonical by both Josephus and Philo. Can you show me (a) evidence that it was not and (b) ancient commentaries that identify the Anointed One of chapter 9 as King Agrippa rather than the Messiah?

It is canonical, just in writings and not prophets.

W. Sibley Towner writes: "Daniel is one of the few OT books that can be given a fairly firm date. In the form in which we have it (perhaps without the additions of 12:11, 12), the book must have been given its final form some time in the years 167-164 B.C. This dating is based upon two assumptions: first, that the authors lived at the later end of the historical surveys that characterize Daniel 7-12; and second, that prophecy is accurate only when it is given after the fact, whereas predictions about the future tend to run astray. Based upon these assumptions, the references to the desecration of the Temple and the 'abomination that makes desolate' in 8:9-12; 9:27; and 11:31 must refer to events known to the author. The best candidates for the historical referents of these events are the desecration of the Temple in Jerusalem and the erection in it of a pagan altar in the autumn of 167 B.C. by Antiochus IV Epiphanes. The inaccurate description of the end of Antiochus' reign and his death in 11:40-45, on the other hand, suggests that the author did not know of those events, which occurred late in 164 or early in 163 B.C. The roots of the hagiographa (idealizing stories) about Daniel and his friends in chaps. 1-6 may date to an earlier time, but the entire work was given its final shape in 164 B.C." (Harper's Bible Commentary, p. 696)

http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/daniel.html

There's much more on that page from various scholars.

I'm saying that it's a typology that fits perfectly with Christian theology. What do you believe is the significance of the paschal lamb?

It's to remember that God passed over, as the name implies, taking the Egyptians and sparing the Israelites.

It seems to me that the covenantal nature of the Mosaic Law precludes it from being abrogated by men; it must be superceded by God himself.

According to traditional Judaism, the written and oral Torahs were recieved at Sinai and the oral Torah gives the tools for understanding the mitzvot based on new circumstances. Conservative Judaism is lenient in rulings and sometimes takes History into account. Orthodox is more strict and only uses the tools outlined in the Talmud for dissemination of new understandings.

I don't believe God ever interferes with the laws of physics or that any text is inherently divine, that they are only sacred because we consider them that way. I view Judaism as an evolving religion and tend to agree with the reconstructionists that tradition has a vote, but not a veto. But I am a theist, panentheist, which is an acceptable variant of monotheism in Judaism. I view the mitzvot as a way of spreading holiness into all aspects of life.

I suspect that many modern Jews would agree with me, and that this explains why it is no longer strictly followed.

Some modern Jews, having grown up in a Christian country, have adopted Christian ideas without realizing it. That's why some may believe there's a hell, even though there's no such thing in Judaism. It's p