Anybody can write a book....

[moon_flower]

I've read the bible over and over again. When I was a young child, I believed every bit of it. Now, as I can make my own decisions and understand what *the word* is saying...I can't believe I was ever into that stuff.

So, tell me, what makes you so sure you're right...what makes you so sure that the Bible is the true word of...god??

Intelligent answers....no simple *faith* ones, please.

[DarkLunacy]

...I love you lol

[geckopelli]

Faith is the only answer.

Good luck with that!

[TerminalMadness]

Anyone can write a book? Heh, you'd think so, wouldn't you?

I believe in god, the devil, heaven and hell, but not the bible. It's a tool used to shield bigots, racists, and narrow minded conservatives.

It's a shield used for war, and the content is questionable. If god is all mighty and power, why does he care whether or not we woship him every Sunday?

Why does he care if we worship another idol?

And all that stuff about the world was created in seven days and seven nights? Was time created during then? I mean if time wasn't really fabricated then seven days and seven nights could have really been fifty years, or a hundred.

And all that stuff about gays being an abomination is just a shield for prejudices against their sexuality.

[gnrm23]

for "other" views, check out:

hugh shonfireld: the passover plot
john shelby spong: rescuing the bible from fundamentalism
aldous huxley: the perennial philosophy
edmond bordeaux szekely: the essene gospel of peace
the gospel of thomas (several online versions)
& just poke around at places like:
www.sacred-texts.com (http://www.sacred-texts.com)
www.beliefnet.com (http://www.beliefnet.com)
www.gnosis.org (http://www.gnosis.org)
www.csp.org (http://www.csp.org)

[nephthys]

"I believe in god, the devil, heaven and hell, but not the bible. It's a tool used to shield bigots, racists, and narrow minded conservatives."

That is what people wish to take from it. It could also be interpreted in a very positive manner. By looking at the gospels, for example, in its historical context you can see that it is supportive of a more liberal, compassionate, and loving society. If people looked at the spirit of the teachings, and not the literal significance, everyone can learn great things that do not require faith to appreciate.

[moon_flower]

I should've known not to ask a question such as this here...NONE of you answered the question....



;) Ditto DarkLunacy!

[Brocktoon]

I should've known not to ask a question such as this here...NONE of you answered the question....



;) Ditto DarkLunacy!
If you are willing to be a bit patient - Jatom and myself will try and come up with an explanation.

Keep in mind, its very easy for you to pop in, assert the book is false and then sit back tapping your fingers.

Your basically asking for the entire Christian apologetic AND you have indicated you have already made up your mind anyway.

How about YOU explain why 'not'?

[TerminalMadness]

If you are willing to be a bit patient - Jatom and myself will try and come up with an explanation.

Keep in mind, its very easy for you to pop in, assert the book is false and then sit back tapping your fingers.

Your basically asking for the entire Christian apologetic AND you have indicated you have already made up your mind anyway.

How about YOU explain why 'not'?
I'm not Christian or religious, but I completely agree.

Give it time. Only after a few posts you expect an answer by asking about the entire bible?

[moon_flower]

No, I don't expect your whole christian community to apologize at all.

AND...What am I making my mind up about? All I asked is what makes you positive that the bible is the *real* word of God....

BUT I do expect the folks who answer to answer my question...not OTHER questions I didn't answer.
I'm not expecting answers on the bible numskull...I want to know what makes you so sure that YOUR bible is right...that YOUR bible is the word of *God*.

And Terminal...What exactly do you agree with? That I want an apologie? Damn, I love proving you wrong, bro!

[TerminalMadness]

And Terminal...What exactly do you agree with? That I want an apologie? Damn, I love proving you wrong, bro!
Listen kid,

How did you prove me wrong? Moron! I agree with his comment about your being impatient. Read! Can you read?

Second it seems you follow me around because you get such a kick outta of arguing with me.

Most of all, if you think you're mature enough to post a comment on a religion board try not to be so fucking immature in your response. Don't like what I have to say? Well, fuck off, it's mostly a free country.

I don't know why you got such a gripe against me, and seriously I couldn't give a shit, but give it a rest and stop being such a downer.

Man there's a lot of immature kids on this board.

[nephthys]

Terminal Madness,
You should be more understanding. Moonflower seems to be an impulsive person and will react in the wrong kinds of ways. Hopefully one day he will grow out of it, until then we have to be patient. :)

[StonerBill]

moonflower evidently has not have the love of god thrust through him; he has not been penetrated by the holy spirit; he has no been violated by a catholic priest yet.

[TerminalMadness]

Terminal Madness,
You should be more understanding. Moonflower seems to be an impulsive person and will react in the wrong kinds of ways. Hopefully one day he will grow out of it, until then we have to be patient. :)
That's a good point. Kids are often very off the wall. Thanks dude.

[TerminalMadness]

moonflower evidently has not have the love of god thrust through him; he has not been penetrated by the holy spirit; he has no been violated by a catholic priest yet.
(Falls off chair laughing ass off) What a sense of humor. Lol.

[moon_flower]

Listen kid,

How did you prove me wrong? Moron! I agree with his comment about your being impatient. Read! Can you read?

Second it seems you follow me around because you get such a kick outta of arguing with me.

Most of all, if you think you're mature enough to post a comment on a religion board try not to be so fucking immature in your response. Don't like what I have to say? Well, fuck off, it's mostly a free country.

I don't know why you got such a gripe against me, and seriously I couldn't give a shit, but give it a rest and stop being such a downer.

Man there's a lot of immature kids on this board.He didn't say I was impatient, moron. The word impatient isn't anywhere in his reply. Can YOU read?
...I hate stupid fuckers who answer everything BUT what I asked.
I follow YOU around? YOU posted in MY thread....
Immature in my response? If immaturity is asking for the answer to my question...then YES I am immature. It's not now nor will it ever be a free or mostly free country...
I don't have a gripe against you. I think you're ignorant...there IS a difference. I don't see where I'm being a downer...if you couldn't give a shit...then why is it bringing you down...????
And there are a lot of immature *adults* here as well....

[moon_flower]

Terminal Madness,
You should be more understanding. Moonflower seems to be an impulsive person and will react in the wrong kinds of ways. Hopefully one day he will grow out of it, until then we have to be patient. :)
And what wrong way was that? Pointing out that NOONE who responded to this thread gave an answer to the question? Well excuse the fuck out of me. Next time I'll stick to questions about who has a crush on whom in the forums...THAT always gets the answers....
SHE will never grow out of it...

[moon_flower]

moonflower evidently has not have the love of god thrust through him; he has not been penetrated by the holy spirit; he has no been violated by a catholic priest yet.
Actually! I was molested by a preist when I was 4 years old...thank ya much, sir.

[Jatom]

Moon flower, you question is very general, so a general answer would be 1) Literary criticism, more specifically textual criticism which reveals that the New Testament is more reliable textually than any other text ancient writing 2)Internal evidences (integrity of the writers, etc.) 3)External evidences (archeology, extra-cannonical and secular sources, natural theology, etc.) and last, but certainly not least (although I'm sure it'll be least to you) 4) personal testimony.

What makes you so sure the Bible is false Moon flower?

BTW, what you're asking for is an apology, and what I just wrote above was a very basic apology.

[moon_flower]

Moon flower, you question is very general, so a general answer would be 1) Literary criticism, more specifically textual criticism which reveals that the New Testament is more reliable textually than any other text ancient writing 2)Internal evidences (integrity of the writers, etc.) 3)External evidences (archeology, extra-cannonical and secular sources, natural theology, etc.) and last, but certainly not least (although I'm sure it'll be least to you) 4) personal testimony.

Internal evidence...how so...??
Personal testimony isn't least to me...thanks for assuming, though...I just didn't want it to be the answer given.

What makes you so sure the Bible is false Moon flower?

I didn't say it was false...I just don't believe it.
The whole new testament contradicts the whole old testament.....
It's the word of God, no? If so...god needs to get his shit together and reorganize the bible so it fits together.

BTW, what you're asking for is an apology, and what I just wrote above was a very basic apology.
BTW....I wasn't asking for an apology...just an explanation of why you think the bible is the way to go....

[TerminalMadness]

He didn't say I was impatient, moron. The word impatient isn't anywhere in his reply. Can YOU read?
...I hate stupid fuckers who answer everything BUT what I asked.
I follow YOU around? YOU posted in MY thread....
Immature in my response? If immaturity is asking for the answer to my question...then YES I am immature. It's not now nor will it ever be a free or mostly free country...
I don't have a gripe against you. I think you're ignorant...there IS a difference. I don't see where I'm being a downer...if you couldn't give a shit...then why is it bringing you down...????
And there are a lot of immature *adults* here as well....
Feel better now? Good. Now let's get back on topic, kay?

[TerminalMadness]

Actually! I was molested by a preist when I was 4 years old...thank ya much, sir.
B-U-L-L-S-H-I-T-T-E-R.

[moon_flower]

B-U-L-L-S-H-I-T-T-E-R.
Whatever you need to think....

[moon_flower]

Feel better now? Good. Now let's get back on topic, kay?
No
Topic...yes

[Jatom]

Internal evidences, or what the Bible says about itself, can be very revealing about integrity of those who wrote it. For example the story in which women are the finders of the empty tomb of Jesus would be very embarrassing, in a day in where women where regarded as unreliable and, in fact, they couldn't even give testimony in a court of law. Human tendency would be tempted to leave such things out if the story were fabricated--it ones creating a false religion, why start off by making it look bad?

Personal testimony isn't least to me...thanks for assuming, though...I just didn't want it to be the answer given

Good, the Gospels are full of testimony.

I didn't say it was false...I just don't believe it.

Ok..., why don't you believe it?

The whole new testament contradicts the whole old testament.....

That's a bit of an overstatement don't you think? Anyway, I have yet to run into this problem.

BTW....I wasn't asking for an apology...just an explanation of why you think the bible is the way to go....

Yes, you're asking for an apology, apologia, or a "defense of"--you're asking for someone to defend, or justify their position on the Bible.

[moon_flower]

I didn't say it was false...I just don't believe it.

Ok..., why don't you believe it?
Contradiction. The whole belief itself. It's....bogus.

The whole new testament contradicts the whole old testament.....

That's a bit of an overstatement don't you think? Anyway, I have yet to run into this problem.
Not really an overstatement. If you've yet to read the entire thing, I don't see why you would run into....;)

BTW....I wasn't asking for an apology...just an explanation of why you think the bible is the way to go....

Yes, you're asking for an apology, apologia, or a "defense of"--you're asking for someone to defend, or justify their position on the Bible.
Ah...glad you FINALLY cleared it up...I was really getting pissed about that, dude!
I thought you meant an apology such as *I'm sorry for believing what I do*.

[geckopelli]

Internal evidences, or what the Bible says about itself, can be very revealing about integrity of those who wrote it. For example the story in which women are the finders of the empty tomb of Jesus would be very embarrassing, in a day in where women where regarded as unreliable and, in fact, they couldn't even give testimony in a court of law. Human tendency would be tempted to leave such things out if the story were fabricated--it ones creating a false religion, why start off by making it look bad?


"How many steps removed from an idiot?" as Mark Twain might say.

No one denies they were clever.

I would have done the same.

[Jatom]

Contradiction. The whole belief itself. It's....bogus.

Please elaborate..I'm listening!

Not really an overstatement. If you've yet to read the entire thing, I don't see why you would run into...

You haven't read very many of my posts have you? ;) (not just this forum, but the previous one also)

[Jatom]

Yes geckopelli, those were some clever little devils; they knew that there were many embarrassing and crippling marks for their false religion at the time, but 2000 years later people in a completely different social context would view it as a sign of integrity...that is, of course, if they could even manage to get the thing started at all. Yep, gotta hand to 'em, these weren't your average Joe Six-Packs!

[geckopelli]

You are blinded by faith. A judgemental christian? And your savior is...?

I've never said they didn't believe it; I just said it doesn't hold water in todays world. For the most part, they didn't know what they were talking about.

Your beliefs in biblical literacy are a force of stagnation in the world. Therein lies the path to decadence.

Organized religion is a dinosaur that needs to go the way of all dinosaurs.

[Jatom]

You are blinded by faith.

Have you done a study on what faith is? Do you know what Biblical faith is?

A judgemental christian? And your savior is...?

I don't follow.

I've never said they didn't believe it; I just said it doesn't hold water in todays world. For the most part, they didn't know what they were talking about.

Didn't believe what? What specifically doesn't hold water? Who didn't know what they were talking about, and in what regard. Elaborate.

Your beliefs in biblical literacy are a force of stagnation in the world. Therein lies the path to decadence.

You're welcome to your opinions, how ever misguided they are.

[Bro_Rific]

What kind of book would you write, Gecko? Can't wait to hear!

[moon_flower]

Jatom...I'm looking for that contradiction stuff right now...I'll have it up soon!



And gecko...I want to be the first to know if and when you DO write a book..I like the way you say things!

[nephthys]

"And what wrong way was that? Pointing out that NOONE who responded to this thread gave an answer to the question? Well excuse the fuck out of me. Next time I'll stick to questions about who has a crush on whom in the forums...THAT always gets the answers....
SHE will never grow out of it..."

There is no reason to get emotional, my dear; just as there is no reason to start a cycle of insults.

"A judgemental christian? And your savior is...? "

That was extremely amusing.

[geckopelli]

jatom,
"Have you done a study on what faith is? Do you know what Biblical faith is? "

Yes. Do you?


A judgemental christian? And your savior is...?

"I don't follow."

I'm willing to bet that Jesus had a sense of humor.


"Didn't believe what? What specifically doesn't hold water? Who didn't know what they were talking about, and in what regard. Elaborate."

The story of creation, to poke a sore spot. World-wide floods . A god whose plans are so insignifacant that he is willing to change them just for the faithful who prey.

None of your wisemen knew why fire burned, or why the stars shine. And millions of other bits of info that are at your disposal.

I could go into boring details and name names, but I'm not here to teach bible studies. Nor do I any longer find interest in tales designed for an infant race.

Why not procure a copy of ASIMOV'S GUIDE TO THE BIBILE, vol 1 and 2 and learn?

Your beliefs in biblical literacy are a force of stagnation in the world. Therein lies the path to decadence.

"You're welcome to your opinions, how ever misguided they are"

They didn't know about trichanosis, but they knew eating pork had a good chance of making one sick.

Should we have simply have never eaten pork and never investigated the how of it?

Your way we eat kosher. Forever.

My way we learn about food posioning and the need for refrigeration and food preservation methods in general.
We improve the Human Condition.

Which way would your god endorse?

[Brocktoon]

jatom,
"Have you done a study on what faith is? Do you know what Biblical faith is? "

Yes. Do you?
Geckopeeli, I wonder if you DO know what biblical faith is?
Generally speaking its no different than anything.
There is no 'Other' concept at work here.

Example: I have 'faith' the Aztecs lived in the Americas. (not proof)
In the same way:
I have 'faith' that Jesus lived in Nazareth. (not proof)

Ok fair enough but there is more:

I have 'faith' that following my Doctors orders will improve my health. (again.. no 'proof')
I have 'faith' that following Jesus teachings will improve my spiritual (emotional, mental) health.

It seems to me that you consider 'Faith' to be different from 'believing something is true'?

You believe by 'Faith' the Sun will rise tomorrow.
I believe by 'Faith' Jesus will return to Earth.

There is no difference in the 'faith' just because the object of faith is different.



A judgemental christian? And your savior is...?

"I don't follow."

I'm willing to bet that Jesus had a sense of humor.
"Didn't believe what? What specifically doesn't hold water? Who didn't know what they were talking about, and in what regard. Elaborate."

The story of creation, to poke a sore spot. World-wide floods . A god whose plans are so insignifacant that he is willing to change them just for the faithful who prey.Last I checked pretty much every geologist in the world is convinced that most every portion of the Earth has been flooded.
Many have 'Faith' it happened over tens of thousands of years.
Not a sore-spot unless you are attempting to put faith in the believe there were not world-wide floods?

None of your wisemen knew why fire burned, or why the stars shine. And millions of other bits of info that are at your disposal.I don't understand why they would be any less Wise because they did not know the deeper detailed description of fire burning or light?[/QUOTE]
Im sure someone will uncover even more detailed knowledge of combustion - will that discredit any wisdom our generation has to offer?

I could go into boring details and name names, but I'm not here to teach bible studies. Nor do I any longer find interest in tales designed for an infant race. So far I don't see any reason to believe you can teach bible studies, however I would appreciate hearing more if you really have it?

Have no idea how you could describe Greco-Roman civilization and the Jews within it as 'Infant'.
You might want to study history and the great literature, art and philosophy which our best modern scholars call unsurpassed by any culture including our own.[/QUOTE]Why not procure a copy of ASIMOV'S GUIDE TO THE BIBILE, vol 1 and 2 and learn?I may just procure a copy. Since we are offering opinions.. i dont have a high one of Asimov, but.. in fairness I will look for it.

Your beliefs in biblical literacy are a force of stagnation in the world. Therein lies the path to decadence.

"You're welcome to your opinions, how ever misguided they are"

They didn't know about trichanosis, but they knew eating pork had a good chance of making one sick. I think this is a good point - They knew it made them sick. They were not 'primitive' or 'unwise' becasue they did not have microscopes and thousands of researchers categorizing it.


Should we have simply have never eaten pork and never investigated the how of it?

Your way we eat kosher. Forever.So a God with scientific knowledge 'tips them off'?
Now there is a time and place to find out the details of 'why'.

As to 'Kosher' - It seems to me you have no knowledge of the New Testament or what that means?
By 'Jatoms' way (if I can speak for him) then Kosher eating is a thing of the past.
Went out about 2000 years ago.

My way we learn about food posioning and the need for refrigeration and food preservation methods in general.
We improve the Human Condition.'Your way' is not your way - if - you were born 5000 years ago with those people.
In fact, the only reason you know anything about trichanosis is from what other people and books have told you.
You also have 'faith' in what they told you based on what knowledge you can find and test right?

Which way would your god endorse? Seems pretty clear he endorses truth-finding.
Its throughout the New and Old testaments that all 'Truth' is good and his creation is worth comtemplating.
This was very inspiring to Christians who went on to created some of the most scientifically advanced civilization in history.
You enjoy the benefits of that now (being born long after it was started)

[geckopelli]

"You believe by 'Faith' the Sun will rise tomorrow.
I believe by 'Faith' Jesus will return to Earth.

There is no difference in the 'faith' just because the object of faith is different."

I've explained this many times.
This is not correct. The sun will rise because it's movement can be calculated. Where is Jesus right now? Where will he be in 3,000 seconds? When will he rise?

I can tell you preciesly where the sun is, and describe it's relative movement- inevitably, it will rise tommorow.
Even if every last one of us dies tonight.

"Last I checked pretty much every geologist in the world is convinced that most every portion of the Earth has been flooded.
Many have 'Faith' it happened over tens of thousands of years.
Not a sore-spot unless you are attempting to put faith in the believe there were not world-wide floods?"

Misconstrued. Your facts are uncoordinated.
Tens of thousnds of years ago are not a biblical concern; there were no tens of thopusands of years ago according to the bible.

Nor do geologist believe in SIMULTANEUOS world wide flood. All parts of the world may have been flooded individually, but not all at once in 40 days and certainly not all at once within the last 7000 years.

"I don't understand why they would be any less Wise because they did not know the deeper detailed description of fire burning or light?[/QUOTE]Im sure someone will uncover even more detailed knowledge of combustion - will that discredit any wisdom our generation has to offer?"

Then let me explain: Your wise men were big fish in a bare puddle of knowledge. We live in a ocean of it now.

Would the the bible be word for word what it is if it had been written today?

"So far I don't see any reason to believe you can teach bible studies, however I would appreciate hearing more if you really have it?"

The bible became an annoyoing fable to me long ago.
Since there is no external evidence for it's required premise- a super being- what is the point of discussing points that rely on that assumption?
It's a literary study, akin to studying Shakesphere. Boring and useless.

I first read the bible under dire circumstances- 30 days in the hole with NOTHING but a bucket and a bible. You can bet I studied that book.

I got more out of DUNE.

"Have no idea how you could describe Greco-Roman civilization and the Jews within it as 'Infant'.
You might want to study history and the great literature, art and philosophy which our best modern scholars call unsurpassed by any culture including our own"

I am refering to thier level of Knowledge. The romans used spears. They thought the sun was a god. And then they changed to the son. Young men entered the military for the privlige of rape and pillage. The flu had the potential to wipe them out.

Literature, arts, and philosophy are not science nor SOURCES of knowledge. They are homocentric endevors- just like religion. They are important only to people.

Knowledge of the Universe holds even with no people.

"I think this is a good point - They knew it made them sick. They were not 'primitive' or 'unwise' becasue they did not have microscopes and thousands of researchers categorizing it."

So after generations, some old guy figures out that he's seen 50 people eat pork, get sick, and die.
Where's the need for god? occam's razor.

"As to 'Kosher' - It seems to me you have no knowledge of the New Testament or what that means?
By 'Jatoms' way (if I can speak for him) then Kosher eating is a thing of the past.
Went out about 2000 years ago."

Precisely my point! Why does jatom ignore the original eating rules? Change was good once, why not now?
Is being stuck 2000 years in the past really better than 4000?
You're invited to join the present.

"'Your way' is not your way - if - you were born 5000 years ago with those people.
In fact, the only reason you know anything about trichanosis is from what other people and books have told you.
You also have 'faith' in what they told you based on what knowledge you can find and test right?"

This is just argumentative without point.

I wasn't born 5000 years ago.

You can go to school and learn biology- no accepteance of magic required.

If by "faith" you mean I don't believe there is a giant conspiracy to construct elaborate, detailed sciences just to fool me, then you're right. Tricanoshisis can be isolated and looked at- and I have done so.

"Seems pretty clear he endorses truth-finding.
Its throughout the New and Old testaments that all 'Truth' is good and his creation is worth comtemplating."

Very good, And why are those particular passage ignored by christian churches in general?

Science seeks to contemplate and understand. Religion wishes to control all conclusion.

So I guess your god endorses me, for I study his reality, not a book.

"This was very inspiring to Christians who went on to created some of the most scientifically advanced civilization in history.
You enjoy the benefits of that now (being born long after it was started)"

If religion wishes credit, take it all.

The most violent and oppressive societies in all of history are in the name of religion. Yes, some christian.
Your religion civilized the NO and SO American indians nearly to extiction.
The a-bomb is yours.
And hitler.
And WWII.
Need I go on?

Oh, we can't pass on without a nod to Gallileo.
-----
Whatever christianity once was, it a new day- time for christians to stop leaving thier christianity at the church.

Instead, abandon the church and take it with you.

[POPthree13]

"Whatever christianity once was, it a new day- time for christians to stop leaving thier christianity at the church.
Instead, abandon the church and take it with you."

That's great Gecko! If the church behaved as Jesus did the world would be a great place. Rome told us salvation and enlightenment comes from preists and God lives in magnificent temples... Jesus told us salvation is already ours and did most of his teaching in the wilderness. Pretty clever dude. Why Christianity stopped listening to him I will never know...

[geckopelli]

Even for me, it's nearly impossible to refute that Jesus was a GREAT man.

It's a crying shame what's been done in his name.

[campbell34]

Accept the Bible or Reject Truth


"As a result, with all the fulfilled prophecies, archaeological and scientific proof a person who rejects the Bible would require more faith than a person that believes it. But still people will go to great heights to try to prove the Bible wrong just so they don't have to obey God's regualtions. But if they only knew that life was just a test with only two possible grades-Heaven or Hell-people would quickly turn and follow Jesus."


http://r-campbell34.tripod.com/proof/index.html

[Sebbi]

Moomflower - Try www.skepticsannotedbible.com (http://www.skepticsannotedbible.com)

Gecko and Jatom - By the way, I think that the Bible has a lot of rubbish but a lot of good stuff as well. I love Jesus' teachings, I don't like Moses' teachings (except maybe about 7 or 8 of the ten commandments, after that it just goes downhill into preaching intolerance). Just an example.

I don't like how much the Bible has been edited, but essensially I think Jesus' teachings are still recognisable under the rubbish.

That guy was the Buddha of compassion (yes I know that's meant to be the Dalai Lama but hey, who says they aren't the same person).

Blessings

Sebbi
P.S. I consider myself an atheist so no I don't believe that Jesus was an Avatar.

[campbell34]

The Bible is a 100% true because it was inspired by God.
-You may ask how do I no it was inspired by God and the answer is the prophecies. The Bible predicts the future before it happens. The Bible is 1/3 prophecy and has a 100% accuracy rate on all its prophecies. Prophecy is not the only thing that proves the Bible was inspired by God, though, there is also archaeolgical and scientical proof. However, these are things churches never seem to talk about. Probably because alot of churches are in it for the money and just want to preach "watered down" sermons instead of telling the people what the Bible really has to say-like the future-
http://r-campbell34.tripod.com/babylon. But thats another topic.

The Bible is either all right or all wrong. There is no in between. Likewise, Jesus was either the ultimate liar or who he said he was-the son of God. And like I said before to not believe in the Bible takes more faith then to believe in it because of the amount of evidence the Bible has behind it. I would never follow a religion that the only way to believe is by blind faith. That is why I am a Christian.


Proof of the Bible...
http://r-campbell34.tripod.com/proof

[Sebbi]

Is this a joke or are you actually serious.

Blessings

Sebbi

[campbell34]

I guess you just met your first Christian in a Christian forum.

[POPthree13]

campbell... "The Bible predicts the future before it happens. The Bible is 1/3 prophecy and has a 100% accuracy rate on all its prophecies."

Are you freaking serious? Do you just puke up everything you read as fact?

First the bible is NO where near 1/3 prophecy. It is mostly history.

100% accuracy? Like armagedon will occur before this generation ends? (This generation being the one that ended 1900 years ago.)
Here is a site that claims the bible is 100% accurate with prophecy. It goes into some great detail to recount 40 of the 300 supposed prophecies Jesus fulfilled. http://www.raptureready.us/prophecy.htm

What really cracks me up is that the (so-called) prophecies it is quoting aren't even prophecies. It claims that Gen3:15 is a prophecy that Jesus will be 'born of a woman.' Really had to be a brain surgeon to guess that one anyway! ;)

[campbell34]

Messianic prophecy is the collection of over 300 predictions in the Old Testament about the future Messiah of the Jewish people. These predictions were written by multiple authors, in numerous books, over approximately 1,000 years. Messianic Prophecy is so dramatic today, because with the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls and the reliability of the Septuagint version of the Old Testament (both of which have been proven to exist prior to the time Jesus walked on the earth) you can be assured that these prophecies were not conspired after-the-fact.

It has been calculated that anyone just fulfilling 8 Messianic prophecies by chance is next to impossible..1 in 10 to the 17th power (1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000), 48 prophecies to be 1 in 10 to the 157th power, (or 1 in 10,00,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000..consider the number of zeros for all 300+ prophecies!)





http://www.messianic-prophecy.net/

Here are a few of the prophecies

Born of a virgin (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:21-23)
A descendant of Abraham (Genesis 12:1-3; 22:18; Matthew 1:1; Galatians 3:16)
Born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2, Matthew 2:1; Luke 2:4-7)
Would perform miracles (Isaiah 35:5-6; Matthew 9:35)
Would preach good news (Isaiah 61:1; Luke 4:14-21)
Would first present Himself as King 173,880 days from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem (Daniel 9:25; Matthew 21:4-11)
Would enter Jerusalem as a king on a donkey (Zechariah 9:9; Matthew 21:4-9)
Would be rejected by Jews (Psalm 118:22; I Peter 2:7)
Die a humiliating death (Psalm 22; Isaiah 53) involving:
- rejection (Isaiah 53:3; John 1:10-11; 7:5,48)
- betrayal by a friend (Psalm 41:9; Luke 22:3-4; John 13:18)
- sold for 30 pieces of silver (Zechariah 11:12; Matthew 26:14-15)
- silence before His accusers (Isaiah 53:7; Matthew 27:12-14)
- being mocked (Psalm 22: 7-8; Matthew 27:31)
- beaten (Isaiah 52:14; Matthew 27:26)
- spit upon (Isaiah 50:6; Matthew 27:30)
- piercing His hands and feet (Psalm 22:16; Matthew 27:31)
- being crucified with thieves (Isaiah 53:12; Matthew 27:38)
- praying for His persecutors (Isaiah 53:12; Luke 23:34)
- piercing His side (Zechariah 12:10; John 19:34)
- given gall and vinegar to drink (Psalm 69:21, Matthew 27:34, Luke 23:36)
- no broken bones (Psalm 34:20; John 19:32-36)
- buried in a rich man´s tomb (Isaiah 53:9; Matthew 27:57-60)
- casting lots for His garments (Psalm 22:18; John 19:23-24)
Would rise from the dead!! (Psalm 16:10; Mark 16:6; Acts 2:31)
Ascend into Heaven (Psalm 68:18; Acts 1:9)
Would sit down at the right hand of God (Psalm 110:1; Hebrews 1:3)


If Jesus came in the New Testiment then how is it that his whole life is fortold in the old??

-Was Jesus some lunatic claimed himself the Christ and fulfilled ALL 300+ prophecies?....No way, look at the statistics

-Did the people that wrote the Bible add the prophecies in after Jesus came to the earth in some huge conspiracy? ....Nope, the Dead Sea Scrolls proved that theory wrong.


Today, the only way Bible scoffers can explain away this astronomical probability is to discredit the prophecies in one way or another. Their only alternative is to accept that God is the author of scriptures. The Bible is reliable book of genuine divine prophecy, You can trust it!

The evidence of divine prophecy presented here is just a tiny portion of proofs available to establish the divine origin of the Bible. Yet, they are more than sufficient to prove the inspiration of the Bible. There will always be men who scoff at the Bible. You, however, can be confident when you read your Bible that God is the author, for it is written:

"We constantly thank God that when you received from us the word of God's message, you accepted it not as the word of men, but for what it really is, the word of God"

-1 Thessalonians 2:13

[POPthree13]

Yes, yes, yes... I have read whole books dealing with the items you have laid on this page for us.

First of all, many of these 'predictions' are long-shots at best. Other's are no brainers. He was going to be a Jew, so he HAD to be a son of Abraham... get it?

The Psalms are songs and poems, not prophecy. Silly bird. I hate how often I see these quoted as fullfilled prophecy. Have you ever read the context of Psalm 22, 41 etc.? They have NOTHING to do with Jesus, the future, or anything like it. This is my point exactly... why is it that people will stretch the words of these passages SOOOOOO much to make it fit their way? That is supicious.

PS: The old testament is of jewish origin. Obviously THEY are unconvinced of the fulfillment of them. How then can you be so sure? I doubt you have done your homework.

[campbell34]

Maybe I haven't done all my homework but my dad has. He wrote this passage to a Jewish atheist concerning Isaiah 53. Jews believe that all these prophecies are about the ancient Jews and not Jesus. However, this thinking was not embraced at first.


"The belief that Isaiah 53 is speaking of Israel is a belief which is new to the Jewish faith, and would of been rejected by Jews that lived before 1100 A.D. For you see all Rabbis before that time fully embraced the belief that Isaiah 53 was speaking of the Messiah, and not the nation of Israel. About 900 years ago Rabbi ShlomoYitzchaki (Rashi) decided that all pervious Jewish religious leaders from the beginning were wrong in their understanding of Isaiah 53. So he took it upon himself and his followers to change that belief from Messiah, to Israel. In short, he did away with a 1000 years of Jewish belief and set the standard for a new belief. It was obvious to him that all previous religious theologians and Rabbis did not know what they were talking about. As a result, most Jews now reject what was clearly accepted in their faith and now embrace this new thinking. They had to forget the great medieval Jewish scholars like Moses Ben Nachman, Rabbi Moshe Konen Ibn Crispin, or Rabbi Moshe El-Sheikn. All of them with one voice accept and affirm the opinion that the prophet (Isaiah) is speaking of King Messiah. Could it be that all of the Jewish religious Rabbis and theologians were wrong from the beginning, and nobody got it right until Rashi came. The questions is, who was right? Was it the early religious leaders who were closer to the Bible's origin, or was it the maverick theologian Rashi?"

[POPthree13]

What is a jewish atheist?

Anywho... Jews today do NOT beleive that Jesus was the king of prophecy. This chapter in Isaiah is all in past tense so why would one suspect it is talking about the future?

[campbell34]

Sometimes it is claimed that the messianic prophecies cited by Christians are in the past tense. Therefore, it is said, they cannot refer to a future, coming Messiah.

This is an invalid argument. There is no such thing as "tense" in biblical Hebrew. (Modern Hebrew, on the other hand, does have tenses.) Biblical Hebrew is not a "tense" language. Modern grammarians recognize that it is an "aspectual" language. This means that the same form of a verb can be translated as either past, present, or future depending on the context and various grammatical cues. The most well known grammatical cue is the "vav-consecutive" that makes an imperfective verb to refer to the past.

Therefore it is wrong to say that Isaiah 53 or other prophecies are in the "past tense." Biblical Hebrew has no tenses. There are many examples of what is wrongly called the "past tense" form (properly called "the perfective" or "perfect") being used for future time.

http://www.jewsforjesus.org/answers/qa/HebrewTenses.htm

[POPthree13]

That is simply untrue. There is tense in ancient hebrew. Don't think I failed to notice that your reference is a jews for jesus site. It is true that many times the translators PURPOSEFULLY left out tense to strengthen their arguments.

http://www.messiahtruth.com/isa9.html

Even if Isaiah 53 is a prophecy, there is little evidence that it was fulfilled by jesus. Sure we can say he did, but no one knows. There is no evidence except for a bunch of people saying he did. The passage is VERY broad, and anyone who was persecuted could fit the description it contains.

[campbell34]

POPthree13,

"What really cracks me up is that the (so-called) prophecies it is quoting aren't even prophecies. It claims that Gen3:15 is a prophecy that Jesus will be 'born of a woman.' Really had to be a brain surgeon to guess that one anyway!"

-The prophecy of the coming messiah had to point out that the messiah would enter the world through the human race and not in a spiritual form.

"100% accuracy? Like armagedon will occur before this generation ends? (This generation being the one that ended 1900 years ago.)"

-Incorrect, Jesus spoke of the generation that saw the fig tree put forth its branches. The fig tree in the Bible always represented the nation of Israel. The rebirth of Israel (1948) today will bring about the fulfillment of this prophecy. The fact that the Jews are in Israel today is no accident.

"PS: The old testament is of jewish origin. Obviously THEY are unconvinced of the fulfillment of them. How then can you be so sure? I doubt you have done your homework."

-We can be sure that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah because it was predicted in the old testiment that the Jews would reject him and kill him.









Following quote courtesy of http://bibledesk.com/ (http://bibledesk.com/)

"There were people who would show me what appeared to be contradictions in the Bible, yet these were not contradictions at all, but only a lack of research on the part of those that said these things."

[HuckFinn]

Jesus spoke of the generation that saw the fig tree put forth its branches. The fig tree in the Bible always represented the nation of Israel. The rebirth of Israel (1948) today will bring about the fulfillment of this prophecy. The fact that the Jews are in Israel today is no accident.You might want to check out http://www.cornerstonemag.com/pages/show_page.asp?580.

[POPthree13]

Genesis
3:15 'And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.' Now what in that suggests to you that this is a prophecy fortelling that Jesus will be born of a woman? Genesis is not a prophetic book, it is a historical account.
And I also don't think the second coming has got jack to do with the fig tree. Jesus is saying that you know when summer is coming because the fig tree bears leaves

Luke 21:
29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; 30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

But I guess you can try to twist anything to look like a fulfilled prophecy. I think its a shame thatpeople will jump on a band wagon and claim things like 300 fulfilled prophecies without really looking into it. It fits what they want to prove so they just accept it as 'gospel'. I am not trying to instill doubt in your bible or reduce your faith in your savior, but for 'Christ's Sake' (literally) do not spread lies in his name. Careful what you say.... regurgitating crap that God-knows-who dreamed up enlightens no man.

PS: Just becasue the jews rejected him doesn't make him the messiah. At the time there were hundreds of prophets, seers and sooth sayers wandering the streets and desserts proclaiming to be talkign to god or even the son of god. They were all rejected... so does that make them all the messiah? You need a bit more evidence and if you read the prophecies closely, Jesus really doesn't fit them all that well. Unless to want to S-T-R-E-T-C-H them W-A-Y out to fit what you want to see.

[campbell34]

The Jews would reject their Messiah
The Messiah would teach in parables-Isaiah 6:9
The Messiah would be born of a virgin-Isaiah 7:14
The Messiah would be a Light to the Gentiles-Isaiah 9:1,2
The Messiah would be the son of God-Isaiah 9:6
The Messiah would grow up in Nazereth-Isaiah 11:1
The Messiah would defeat death-Isaiah 25:8
The Messiah would be the new covenant-Isaiah 42:6
The Messiah would be despised-Isaiah 53:3
The Messiah would be rejected-Isaiah 53:3
The Messiah's back would be lashed at his trial-Isaiah 53:5
The Messiah would be God's sacrificial Lamb-Isaiah 53:7
The Messiah would be killed-Isaiah 53:8
The Messiah would die for the sins of the world-Isaiah 53:8
The messiah would be ressurected by God-Isaiah 55:3
The Messiah would be rejected by his own people-Isaiah 65:2


"At the time there were hundreds of prophets, seers and sooth sayers wandering the streets and desserts proclaiming to be talkign to god or even the son of god. They were all rejected... so does that make them all the messiah?"
-POPthree13


No that doesn't, but could you tell me which one of those other prophets fulfilled these prophecies?

[POPthree13]

The Messiah would teach in parables-Isaiah 6:9 -Most prophets did.
The Messiah would be born of a virgin-Isaiah 7:14 -True, but there is no proof of this, and if he was born of a virgin then he is not an heir of David - which is also required of the messiah.
The Messiah would be a Light to the Gentiles-Isaiah 9:1,2 -Doesn't say that.
The Messiah would be the son of God-Isaiah 9:6 - Pure opinion here.
The Messiah would grow up in Nazereth-Isaiah 11:1-Doesn't say that.
The Messiah would defeat death-Isaiah 25:8 -True.
The Messiah would be the new covenant-Isaiah 42:6 - True
Isaiah 53 is past tense.
The Messiah would be despised-Isaiah 53:3-Most prophets were.
The Messiah would be rejected-Isaiah 53:3-Most prophets were.
The Messiah's back would be lashed at his trial-Isaiah 53:5 -Doesn't say that.
The Messiah would be God's sacrificial Lamb-Isaiah 53:7 -Innocent like a lamb - it says nothing of sacrifice.
The Messiah would be killed-Isaiah 53:8 - A lot of people were.
The Messiah would die for the sins of the world-Isaiah 53:8-Doesn't say that.
The messiah would be ressurected by God-Isaiah 55:3 -Doesn't say that.
The Messiah would be rejected by his own people-Isaiah 65:2-Most prophets were.
I am not trying to say Isaiah was not a prophet. I think there are those who can devine the future. I think, perhaps, he was even talking about the great leader to come - Jesus. Its seems plausible. However, I think a LOT of people try very hard to read a lot more into it than is there. I don;t think anyone can argue that Jesus was a powerful historical figure who changed many thing about the way we look at religion. Does this require that we worship him? That he was sinless?
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

[POPthree13]

The idea of a virgin brithed god-man who could overcome death is a reoccurring theme in numerous religions. The oldest records are those of the Egyptians. Certainly Moses learned a thing or two about Osiris while he was in Egypt. There is sugnifigant evidence that the 'myth' of Jesus was borrowed from other traditions. That doesn't mean Jesus didn't live, or that he didn't bring a relavent message. Only that the 'mystical' nature of his contributions may be a little exaggerated. Heres some info on other God-Men who came before Jesus and often were:

Born of virgins
performed miracles
Had birthdays on christmas
were ressurected
were called the king of kings, Alpha and Omega, etc.

http://www.geocities.com/inquisitive79/godmen

[campbell34]

POPthree13,


The Messiah would teach in parables-Isaiah 6:9 -Most prophets did.

-Most prophets did not teach in parables and that is one thing that was unique about Christ.

The Messiah would be born of a virgin-Isaiah 7:14 -True, but there is no proof of this, and if he was born of a virgin then he is not an heir of David - which is also required of the messiah.

-He would still be from the line of david because both Joseph and Mary together were from the line of david.

The Messiah would be a Light to the Gentiles-Isaiah 9:1,2 -Doesn't say that.

-Sorry about that gave the wrong verse. I looked at a bad website that gave incorrect verses. The correct verse is Isaiah 42:6

The Messiah would be the son of God-Isaiah 9:6 - Pure opinion here.

-Well this is what the Old Testiment declares and this what the New Testiment claims Jesus was.

The Messiah would grow up in Nazereth-Isaiah 11:1-Doesn't say that.

-This was the wrong book. The correct verse Micah 5:2. The Messiah would be born in Bethlehem.

The Messiah would defeat death-Isaiah 25:8 -True.

The Messiah would be the new covenant-Isaiah 42:6 - True

Isaiah 53 is past tense.

The Messiah would be despised-Isaiah 53:3-Most prophets were.

The Messiah would be rejected-Isaiah 53:3-Most prophets were.

The Messiah's back would be lashed at his trial-Isaiah 53:5 -Doesn't say that.

-The word stripe refers to being whipped

The Messiah would be God's sacrificial Lamb-Isaiah 53:7 -Innocent like a lamb - it says nothing of sacrifice.

-"He is brought as a lamb to the slaughter" ....Nothing of sacrifice??

The Messiah would be killed-Isaiah 53:8 - A lot of people were.

The Messiah would die for the sins of the world-Isaiah 53:8-Doesn't say that.

-This was the wrong verse. The correct verse is Isaiah 53:12. "and he bear the sin of many and made intercession for the transgressors."

The messiah would be ressurected by God-Isaiah 55:3 -Doesn't say that.

-Wrong book again. Psalms 16:10 is the correct verse.


The Messiah would be rejected by his own people-Isaiah 65:2-Most
prophets were.



Other.....
Messiah would be sold for 30 pieces of silver-Zech. 11:12



The Bible states that the Messiah would be the light to the gentiles. Who claimed to be the messiah and is now embraced by the gentiles but is rejected by the Jews?

[Alsharad]

POPthree13:

In regards to the other God-Men that you mention, I would direct you here:

http://www.tektonics.org/tekton_04_02_04.html

That has a TON of information which refutes the claims in the website you posted (plus many more that were not mentioned in that site).

You mentioned that "there is sugnifigant evidence that the 'myth' of Jesus was borrowed from other traditions." Please remember that similarity doesn't mean that anything was borrowed. The data that I have found (and I have searched for information on both sides) generally doesn't support the borrowing theories.

You also mentioned the teachings of Jesus. My question is "What did he teach?" After reading the Gospels (specifically John), it appears that he spent a lot of time saying "I am God." Is that the teaching you refer to? How do you distinguish between the authentic quotes and the quotes about his divinity?

[POPthree13]

This site doesn't provide much for proof, and then uses the argument that if the author is wrong we should show him proof. He says if I don't see proof of Osiris' facts in a year then he is right. Is that logical? He is also refuting a lot of claims that I too have never heard.

http://www.tektonics.org/osy.html

He really doesn't do much to dispell the Osiris - Jesus connection. He just says he hasn't found proof for about 50% of the statements made about Osiris. Of course he doesn't claim to be an Egyptologist and the source he uses is a Encyclopedia of Religions - the kind of book you see on coffee tables.

Regardless there are countless sources all over the web and a few books in the library that come from egyptologists who confirm dozens of parallels between these two characters.

A religious studies class would also tell you that thi practice of borrowing from previous faiths is quite common, so it would seem foolish to think this is one case where it did not happen.

[campbell34]

POPthree13, can you please explain these...

1. Messiah would be sold for 30 pieces of silver-Zech. 11:12

2. The Bible states that the Messiah would be the light to the gentiles. Who claimed to be the messiah and is now embraced by the gentiles but is rejected by the Jews?

[Sunburst]

I did learna great deal from the bible, but I too have come to make my own decisions. Rather than consult the bible to see if God says everything I do is okay, I do what I know/feel is right and what God wants. It's a book that follows Jesus' teachings, but is not written by him, therefore, not everything in it can be 100% accurate. It is humans' interpretations of what God wants when he says things, but humans each view things differently, God may have meant something completely different.

[campbell34]

"It's a book that follows Jesus' teachings, but is not written by him, therefore, not everything in it can be 100% accurate. It is humans' interpretations of what God wants when he says things, but humans each view things differently, God may have meant something completely different."
-Sunburst




HOW DO YOU KNOW THE BIBLE IS A 100% TRUE?
-It was inspired by God. God put the thoughts into men's minds to create the Bible so the Bible could be used for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that people of God may be complete, equipped for every good work-2 Tim. 3:16,17



HOW DO YOU KNOW THE BIBLE WAS INSPIRED BY GOD?
-Fulfilled prophecy-the Bible predicts the future before it happens and scientifical proof...

http://r-campbell34.tripod.com/proof

[campbell34]

Michael, what are you talking about...

The prophecy goes the Messiah would be sold for 30 pieces of silver. It was told in the Old Testiment (Zechariah 11:12) and then hundreds of years later Jesus was betrayed for 30 pieces of silver-which fulfilled that prophecy-recorded in the New Testiment (Matthew 26:14-15)

And on that same day Jesus fulfilled many of the other Old testiment prophecies concerning him.

[moon_flower]

Moomflower - Try www.skepticsannotedbible.com (http://www.skepticsannotedbible.com)That site didn't work. :sunglasse Thank you for wasting my time.



The Bible is a 100% true because it was inspired by God.
-You may ask how do I no it was inspired by God and the answer is the prophecies. The Bible predicts the future before it happens. The Bible is 1/3 prophecy and has a 100% accuracy rate on all its prophecies. :eek: Blah! As if some blind deaf retard on the side of the road couldn't predict a war is inevitable, or that there WILL be poverty in places. Get some new material.

The Bible is either all right or all wrong. There is no in between. Likewise, Jesus was either the ultimate liar or who he said he was-the son of God. And like I said before to not believe in the Bible takes more faith then to believe in it because of the amount of evidence the Bible has behind it. I would never follow a religion that the only way to believe is by blind faith. That is why I am a Christian.
EVIDENCE? Oh, nevermind, I see the problem. You've been brain-washed by the upety Christian community.
You are forgiven.

[campbell34]

"That site didn't work. http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/sunglasses.gif Thank you for wasting my time."

-I guess this site http://r-campbell34.tripod.com/proof didn't work for you. I looked at that lame attempt to highlight contradictions in the Bible, but they are not contractiction at all as explained in this following quote from the website
http://bibledesk.com/ (http://bibledesk.com/)

"..there were people who would show me what appeared to be contradictions in the Bible, yet these were not contradictions at all, but only a lack of research on the part of those that said these things."

Every appeared contradiction can be explained.



"Blah! As if some blind deaf retard on the side of the road couldn't predict a war is inevitable, or that there WILL be poverty in places. Get some new material."

-I guess predicting Jesus' life in detail hundreds and thousands a years before he walk the Earth is too vague. Along with predicting Israel and the Jews entire history in detail.

Also prophetic proof is not the only proof of the Bible, there is also archaeological and scientifical proof...but you would not know that because you have never looked into it..... Again here is a guy that was similar to your thinking ... http://r-campbell34.tripod.com/proof/id8.html ... but as he did the research he found the truth.

"EVIDENCE? Oh, nevermind, I see the problem. You've been brain-washed by the upety Christian community.
You are forgiven."

-Brainwashed, please the stuff I write on this site is hardly ever preached in the church. That is why there is so many weak Christians. Most Christians you ask, "Well where is the proof?" they either say "inspired by God" or "by faith" and thats it. But it is deeper than that. Yes the Bible is inspired by God... but how do we know that? Prophectic, Archaeological and Scientifical proof... You look at all these and you can see the God of the Bible is the real true God.

And God wants everyone to be with him. However, as the Bible says, most people will reject Jesus and deny the truth because they do not want to be under God's authority. But if they could only see that life was just a test with only two grades-heaven or hell-they would quickly follow Jesus.


Life is a mist, Eternity is forever....

[POPthree13]

Every appeared contradiction can be explained.
Anything CAN be expalined, but how foolish is the explanation? How can Jesus be the ONLY begotten son when the old testament clearly refers to the Sons of God running rampant on the earth? How can the sun be created days after the 'day' was invented. Trying running that through a logical mind...

I guess predicting Jesus' life in detail hundreds and thousands a years before he walk the Earth is too vague. ...the stuff I write on this site is hardly ever preached in the church.No... that's pretty much the junk you hear 'taught' in church.

Also prophetic proof is not the only proof of the Bible, there is also archaeological and scientifical proof...but you would not know that because you have never looked into it.....
Most of the archaeological evidence that exists on earth predates the bible and the religion. In fact if you are to beleive what biblical scholars would conclude is the date of creation, then most archaelogical artifacts are too old to exist on this planet. Man's progression from apes in the great rift of africa is very well documented and they started moving about the globe about 2 million years before the 'theoretical' creation.
Scientifical... I am not sure what that is, but it sure isn't scientific. Science has been persecuted by christianity ever since science started proving the church wrong a few hundred years ago. If science was helping the church so much then why did they imprison, torture or burn every great thinker they could get there hands on?


And God wants everyone to be with him. However, as the Bible says, most people will reject Jesus and deny the truth because they do not want to be under God's authority. But if they could only see that life was just a test with only two grades-heaven or hell-they would quickly follow Jesus.

Life is a mist, Eternity is forever....To deny the truth is to buy whatever they are selling. You bought it, but some choose not to. Jesus gave us a greta example in the pharisees. The 'truth' sets you free, the 'word' I hear coming from the church only serves to bind you.

[roly]

way i see it is...yeh your right...anyone can write a book....and anyone did! lots of different writers contributed to it...like documentation on events. jesus was a guy who sed things...its a record of what a guy sed by many different interpretations. Like biographies today but with testimonies and events in too. roly.xxx (please dont be mean...seems most ppl are to me on this particular part of the forums) :(

[campbell34]

Popthree13,

"Anything CAN be expalined, but how foolish is the explanation? How can Jesus be the ONLY begotten son when the old testament clearly refers to the Sons of God running rampant on the earth? How can the sun be created days after the 'day' was invented. Trying running that through a logical mind..."

1) The son of God is Jesus ..."the sons of God" were fallen angels who consorted with human women, producing giant offspring" Read more> http://users.aristotle.net/~bhuie/gen6sons.htm

2)God's days are much longer than ours as explained in II Peter 3:8, "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." Therefore, it took 6000 years to create the earth.


"No... that's pretty much the junk you hear 'taught' in church."

Yet a couple lines down you state, "Scientifical... I am not sure what that is, but it sure isn't scientific." Therefore, you do not no all the proofs of the Bible. What exactly do you know? What have you heard in church?

I know I am a Christian and I have been going to different churches all my life. Only a handful of the time has that pastor ever talked about the proofs of the Bible or the end-times, the stuff they should focus on the most. No wonder there is so many Christians that cannot defend their faith because they are never taught!The things I have talked about on this forum I did not learn from church.

"Man's progression from apes in the great rift of africa is very well documented and they started moving about the globe about 2 million years before the 'theoretical' creation."

Didn't you get the newflash the theory of evolution is dying off...
Turns out, Scientist discovered that this theory is not supported by the fossil record

Evolution has been around for about 100 years, yet no transpecies have ever been found (i.e. single cell >?> human). What is in between? Museums should be packed with tens of thousands of transpecie fossils yet the only fossils in the museums are of exstinct animal species or common to the species we have today.

Oh yeah, here is a website http://www.reasons.org/resources/apologetics/index.shtml?main#creation_vs_evolution with all arguments for creationism I am ready to debate.

[Brocktoon]

It does indeed seem the theory of Evolution is being abandoned.

Dying is a good word for it.

Its just that most of the public is not aware of this .. yet.

[campbell34]

I've read the bible over and over again. When I was a young child, I believed every bit of it. Now, as I can make my own decisions and understand what *the word* is saying...I can't believe I was ever into that stuff.

So, tell me, what makes you so sure you're right...what makes you so sure that the Bible is the true word of...god??

Intelligent answers....no simple *faith* ones, please.
Anyone can write a Book, but only God can predict the future in detail. And if you have read the prophecies of the Bible, then you would know this is what God has done.

[Portalguy]

First off it's hard to even see the question because it's in the middle of your opinion. You sandwiched in between the answer you wanted to hear.

Second off the question can be answered simply or in a complicated nature. I'll go with simple because I'm sort of rushed for time. It's a matter of faith. You've never seen atoms but you know they are there right? Well, of course that's scientific fact right? Told to you by a bunch of people right? So, a bunch of people tell you it's fact that The Bible is the word of God but you don't believe them? It's perspective.

My faith is the Bible is the word of God. Do I always understand everything in it? No. Do I always understand other things that are in fact reality? No.

[Freedom_Man]

Messianic prophecy is the collection of over 300 predictions in the Old Testament about the future Messiah of the Jewish people. These predictions were written by multiple authors, in numerous books, over approximately 1,000 years. Messianic Prophecy is so dramatic today, because with the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls and the reliability of the Septuagint version of the Old Testament (both of which have been proven to exist prior to the time Jesus walked on the earth) you can be assured that these prophecies were not conspired after-the-fact.

It has been calculated that anyone just fulfilling 8 Messianic prophecies by chance is next to impossible..1 in 10 to the 17th power (1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000), 48 prophecies to be 1 in 10 to the 157th power, (or 1 in 10,00,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000..consider the number of zeros for all 300+ prophecies!)





http://www.messianic-prophecy.net/

Here are a few of the prophecies

Born of a virgin (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:21-23)
A descendant of Abraham (Genesis 12:1-3; 22:18; Matthew 1:1; Galatians 3:16)
Born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2, Matthew 2:1; Luke 2:4-7)
Would perform miracles (Isaiah 35:5-6; Matthew 9:35)
Would preach good news (Isaiah 61:1; Luke 4:14-21)
Would first present Himself as King 173,880 days from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem (Daniel 9:25; Matthew 21:4-11)
Would enter Jerusalem as a king on a donkey (Zechariah 9:9; Matthew 21:4-9)
Would be rejected by Jews (Psalm 118:22; I Peter 2:7)
Die a humiliating death (Psalm 22; Isaiah 53) involving:
- rejection (Isaiah 53:3; John 1:10-11; 7:5,48)
- betrayal by a friend (Psalm 41:9; Luke 22:3-4; John 13:18)
- sold for 30 pieces of silver (Zechariah 11:12; Matthew 26:14-15)
- silence before His accusers (Isaiah 53:7; Matthew 27:12-14)
- being mocked (Psalm 22: 7-8; Matthew 27:31)
- beaten (Isaiah 52:14; Matthew 27:26)
- spit upon (Isaiah 50:6; Matthew 27:30)
- piercing His hands and feet (Psalm 22:16; Matthew 27:31)
- being crucified with thieves (Isaiah 53:12; Matthew 27:38)
- praying for His persecutors (Isaiah 53:12; Luke 23:34)
- piercing His side (Zechariah 12:10; John 19:34)
- given gall and vinegar to drink (Psalm 69:21, Matthew 27:34, Luke 23:36)
- no broken bones (Psalm 34:20; John 19:32-36)
- buried in a rich man´s tomb (Isaiah 53:9; Matthew 27:57-60)
- casting lots for His garments (Psalm 22:18; John 19:23-24)
Would rise from the dead!! (Psalm 16:10; Mark 16:6; Acts 2:31)
Ascend into Heaven (Psalm 68:18; Acts 1:9)
Would sit down at the right hand of God (Psalm 110:1; Hebrews 1:3)
If Jesus came in the New Testiment then how is it that his whole life is fortold in the old??

-Was Jesus some lunatic claimed himself the Christ and fulfilled ALL 300+ prophecies?....No way, look at the statistics

-Did the people that wrote the Bible add the prophecies in after Jesus came to the earth in some huge conspiracy? ....Nope, the Dead Sea Scrolls proved that theory wrong.


Today, the only way Bible scoffers can explain away this astronomical probability is to discredit the prophecies in one way or another. Their only alternative is to accept that God is the author of scriptures. The Bible is reliable book of genuine divine prophecy, You can trust it!

The evidence of divine prophecy presented here is just a tiny portion of proofs available to establish the divine origin of the Bible. Yet, they are more than sufficient to prove the inspiration of the Bible. There will always be men who scoff at the Bible. You, however, can be confident when you read your Bible that God is the author, for it is written:

"We constantly thank God that when you received from us the word of God's message, you accepted it not as the word of men, but for what it really is, the word of God"

-1 Thessalonians 2:13





























you can't really prove any of those prophecies, you weren't there and besides there is no evidence outside the bible. Im not saying don't be a christian, but i mean don't try to pull out that those things really happened, i want physical proof, not faith. That being said what propheices happened that we can be sure of through physical evidence?

What sacrifice was there really?


It says god sacrifced his son, but where was it, he didn't lose his son, he basically came to earth and got put in a coma for three days and got up and went back home to heaven, there was no forteiture. God didn't lose his son.

Another reason i doubht the exsiitense of a supreme deity is that if God is this all perfect being, then nothing out of him could be unperfect, he could not think unperfect,act unperfect, anything, yet he fucked up over and over again.... I mean if god was perfect from the beggining then he would need nothing else to complete him. He could fix his fuck ups, but there should be no fuck ups in the first place if he is all perfect. Here is a fun game to play.

http://brainsump.50megs.com/vintage/as/gs/index.html

You can believe what you like but i don't agree.

[JLPMGHRS]

It's hard to believe that the detailed prophecies made in the Bible could have be done by good guessing or by deliberate deceit. The book of Daniel which was written before 530 B.C. accurately predicts the progression of kingdoms from Babylon through the Medo-Persian Empire, the Greek Empire, and then the Roman Empire and the suffering of the Jews under Antiochus IV Epiphanes. That's one of many fulfilled, detailed prophecies that were made hundreds of years prior to the fulfillment.

There is also the fact that it's writers were eyewitnesses or close associates of eyewitnesses. In the case of the eleven apostles and numerous other followers of Christ in the first century, eyewitnesses to Christ's ressurection, who were martyred for their faith, you have to ask yourself why these people would go through that if they knew his ressurection was a fraud. As it is often said, many people will die for what they believe but seldom will someone die for what they know to be a lie. If they were part of a conspiracy would they have endured that?

Archaeology and secular history is also a powerful witness to the accuracy of the Bible. And then there is the numerous manuscripts on hand, the earliest dating back to 120 A.D., which has been virtually unaltered in the Bibles around today. With the thousands of manuscripts available, it is possible in most cases to get back to the original documents because each person copying it would have probably made mistakes, but they wouldn't have all made the same mistakes and this makes it possible to get back to the original. this is seen in the manuscripts. they are not all exactly the same, as if they were one at a time copied from the previous copy, new errors in each one. by comparing them you can get back to the original.

more can be said but that's a start.

[Freedom_Man]

It's hard to believe that the detailed prophecies made in the Bible could have be done by good guessing or by deliberate deceit. The book of Daniel which was written before 530 B.C. accurately predicts the progression of kingdoms from Babylon through the Medo-Persian Empire, the Greek Empire, and then the Roman Empire and the suffering of the Jews under Antiochus IV Epiphanes. That's one of many fulfilled, detailed prophecies that were made hundreds of years prior to the fulfillment.

There is also the fact that it's writers were eyewitnesses or close associates of eyewitnesses. In the case of the eleven apostles and numerous other followers of Christ in the first century, eyewitnesses to Christ's ressurection, who were martyred for their faith, you have to ask yourself why these people would go through that if they knew his ressurection was a fraud. As it is often said, many people will die for what they believe but seldom will someone die for what they know to be a lie. If they were part of a conspiracy would they have endured that?

Archaeology and secular history is also a powerful witness to the accuracy of the Bible. And then there is the numerous manuscripts on hand, the earliest dating back to 120 A.D., which has been virtually unaltered in the Bibles around today. With the thousands of manuscripts available, it is possible in most cases to get back to the original documents because each person copying it would have probably made mistakes, but they wouldn't have all made the same mistakes and this makes it possible to get back to the original. this is seen in the manuscripts. they are not all exactly the same, as if they were one at a time copied from the previous copy, new errors in each one. by comparing them you can get back to the original.

more can be said but that's a start.The thing is, the idea of a supreme deity or dieties in some cases is mans invention to explain things, even if the bible is the word of god, today it is NOT credible and has had things added to it, taken from it,there have been grammer errors,carelessness might have a cause to it. The hebrew god yehweh is so human its not funny, if god was real, the christian argument of faith is not an answer, if god was real god would prove to us god is real, not make us go through life in doubht, i mean if god cared so much, why wouldn't god help us out on these things?

[JLPMGHRS]

I'm curious as to how you came to the conclusion that the bible is not credible today and that it has been changed. Do you mean grammaticaly or in substance and message? As far as God being "so human", the Scripture says that man was created in the image of God (Gen ch1:26-27) . This doesn't mean that we are equal to God but we do have some of the same personality traits that he is shown to have in Scripture. The Bible makes clear that God is spirit (John 4:24)

Jesus makes an interesting statement in John 3:19: "This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil." In other words, it is not that we don't have enough light, but that we love evil and we don't want to acknowledge the light. For starters we have the light of creation, the universe we live in. We also have our moral consciousness. These are things that should be intuitively obvious to us. There are many valid arguments for the existence of God, but even beyond that God has revealed himself to us through his word, the prophets found in it and then fully through Jesus Christ. He has told us about himself, what he is like and has called us to be reconciled to Him through his son Jesus Christ. Christian faith is not a blind faith, it's based on evidence. it's a leap in to the light not into the dark.

So, in light of the evidence and many powerful arguments for the existence of God and the validity of the Bible, is faith really not an answer? the bible is clear that faith is based on truth. there is no conflict between faith and reason for Christians. It should also be pointed out that God is not hiding from us. Paul points out in Acts ch17 that "From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places they should live. God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us."

Again, much more could be said on this.

[NaykidApe]

It's hard to believe that the detailed prophecies made in the Bible could have be done by good guessing or by deliberate deceit. The book of Daniel which was written before 530 B.C. accurately predicts the progression of kingdoms from Babylon through the Medo-Persian Empire, the Greek Empire, and then the Roman Empire and the suffering of the Jews under Antiochus IV Epiphanes. That's one of many fulfilled, detailed prophecies that were made hundreds of years prior to the fulfillment.

This is a bit of circular reasoning here. While Daniel is set durring the Babylonian captivity the book itself makes no claim to having been written in that period. It's written, for the most part, in the third person which means it could have been written at any time.

Most scholars believe the book of Daniel to have been written in it's present form during the reign of the Maccabees, which would place it's authorship sometime in the first cent BC, after the prophesies it contains had already been fullfilled.

In any case there's no reason for even the most staunch literalist to think it was written in the timeframe you gave, in that the story itself makes no claim to that effect.

the only reason anyone could possibly have for stating the story was written durring the Babylonian captivity would be to make it an acceptable demonstration of fullfilled prophisie.

Like I said, circular reasoning.

Of course you could just as easly say that attributing a post-fullfillment date of authorship is circular reasoning on the other end but my point is;

There's no way to know when this book was written, and there's no reason--historical or biblical--to assume it was written in durring the captivity.

There is also the fact that it's writers were eyewitnesses or close associates of eyewitnesses. In the case of the eleven apostles and numerous other followers of Christ in the first century, eyewitnesses to Christ's ressurection, who were martyred for their faith, you have to ask yourself why these people would go through that if they knew his ressurection was a fraud. As it is often said, many people will die for what they believe but seldom will someone die for what they know to be a lie. If they were part of a conspiracy would they have endured that?

What are you basing this on? The only biblical reference to the martyrdom of an apostle is that of James (Acts 2:12).

The next refrence we have is in a letter of Clement, the first bishop of Rome, sometime in the early second cent. when he talks about the mayrtordom of Peter.

If you accept Clements credibility than you also have to accept his claim (as well as Herecletian's) that Matthew died of natural causes, despite the numourous (conflicting) traditions about his martyrdom.

Interestingy enough noneof the early church fathers makes any reference to any of the apostles having suffered martydom until Tertillain mentions an unsuccesful attempt to execute John sometime in the early 3rd cent.

So, again, what are you basing this on?

[campbell34]

This is a bit of circular reasoning here. While Daniel is set durring the Babylonian captivity the book itself makes no claim to having been written in that period. It's written, for the most part, in the third person which means it could have been written at any time.

Most scholars believe the book of Daniel to have been written in it's present form during the reign of the Maccabees, which would place it's authorship sometime in the first cent BC, after the prophesies it contains had already been fullfilled.

In any case there's no reason for even the most staunch literalist to think it was written in the timeframe you gave, in that the story itself makes no claim to that effect.

the only reason anyone could possibly have for stating the story was written durring the Babylonian captivity would be to make it an acceptable demonstration of fullfilled prophisie.

Like I said, circular reasoning.

Of course you could just as easly say that attributing a post-fullfillment date of authorship is circular reasoning on the other end but my point is;

There's no way to know when this book was written, and there's no reason--historical or biblical--to assume it was written in durring the captivity.



What are you basing this on? The only biblical reference to the martyrdom of an apostle is that of James (Acts 2:12).

The next refrence we have is in a letter of Clement, the first bishop of Rome, sometime in the early second cent. when he talks about the mayrtordom of Peter.

If you accept Clements credibility than you also have to accept his claim (as well as Herecletian's) that Matthew died of natural causes, despite the numourous (conflicting) traditions about his martyrdom.

Interestingy enough noneof the early church fathers makes any reference to any of the apostles having suffered martydom until Tertillain mentions an unsuccesful attempt to execute John sometime in the early 3rd cent.

So, again, what are you basing this on?
They know the Dead Sea scrolls were written 2,000 years ago, and found within those scrolls are the prophecies that speak about the return of the Jews to the land of Israel in the latter days. Much detail about their return will be found there. Of course, if you don't want to believe those prophecies or the Bible, you will turn a deaf ear to what they say. The events that are happening today can be found in the Bible in detail. You simply have to look at what has been happening in Israel in the last 60 years, and then consider what the Bible stated would be happening near the end of time. The Bible tells us that near the end, world attention would be focused on Jerusalem. The Bible also tells us, that in the latter days, Jerusalem will be a cup of trembling to the nations. The Bible states that at this same time, Jerusalems East Gate will still be sealed, and will remain sealed until God returns and opens it.

[Freedom_Man]

They know the Dead Sea scrolls were written 2,000 years ago, and found within those scrolls are the prophecies that speak about the return of the Jews to the land of Israel in the latter days. Much detail about their return will be found there. Of course, if you don't want to believe those prophecies or the Bible, you will turn a deaf ear to what they say. The events that are happening today can be found in the Bible in detail. You simply have to look at what has been happening in Israel in the last 60 years, and then consider what the Bible stated would be happening near the end of time. The Bible tells us that near the end, world attention would be focused on Jerusalem. The Bible also tells us, that in the latter days, Jerusalem will be a cup of trembling to the nations. The Bible states that at this same time, Jerusalems East Gate will still be sealed, and will remain sealed until God returns and opens it.
don't get me wrong, i'm not trying to be an ass, i just question things, and the idea of the god of the bible, hell and heaven, kind of just sounds illogical, i mean how did they determine they were over 2,000 years old?

[campbell34]

don't get me wrong, i'm not trying to be an ass, i just question things, and the idea of the god of the bible, hell and heaven, kind of just sounds illogical, i mean how did they determine they were over 2,000 years old?
Scientist were able to determin that the scrolls were written during the time Roman occupied Jerusalem. The scrolls were discovered in caves outside of Jerusalem back in 1947. It has taken many years to restore them, because of their age.

I think the fact that we are standing on a ball floating in space spinning at 24,000 miles an hour talking about God is equally illogical. Yet, here we are.

[Freedom_Man]

Scientist were able to determin that the scrolls were written during the time Roman occupied Jerusalem. The scrolls were discovered in caves outside of Jerusalem back in 1947. It has taken many years to restore them, because of their age.

I think the fact that we are standing on a ball floating in space spinning at 24,000 miles an hour talking about God is equally illogical. Yet, here we are.
Well, I here you on the dead see scrolls, I mean shit I guess if a few scientists determine it has to be.... But come one the bible is such crap, along with mythology, folklore,santa claus, and fairy tales.

I believe in god, but not a deity, or many deities, I believe god is all of us as one consciousness, there is no true way, no savior, no enlightened one no prophets nothing.

In my humble opinion, religion gives hope to people, that's a great thing, although false hope, it's hope.

But lets look logically at the "literal" meaning of the bible.

1.Adam and Eve- They were supposedly the first two people on earth, then where did all the different races and religions come from?, I mean they would have passed their genes and beliefs down through all the generations, right? But, there are alot of different races around the world, differents religions and beliefs exc. Now lets look at how much shit it is. Ok one day, an all perfect god, decided well fuck i guess i need people to worship me, wait, what!?, If he was there forever always perfect, god would not need anything to complete him or asure him he is great, 2. We were made "imperfect", If that god was so perfect, how could he think imperfect thoughts?, how could he make imperfect creatures, unless 1. it is myth 2. he is imperfect just as man.

Another one, god supposedly knows, everything past, present, future, he would never be suprised, right? Well why would he be asking adam where he was hiding, i mean he is omnipresent right? He should know. Yet again another flaw in the perfectness of yahweh.

2. Noahs ark, Well one day god decided to flood the earth cause nobody was following his way, ok he picks this holy dude named noah, he gathers all the animals from the earth, and brings them on a boat, Wow, thats stupid, what about fish he would have to get them too, saltwater fish and freshwaer fish cannot live in eachothers enviornment, they would die, therefore making them extinct. How big was this boat excactly, to fit two of every living creature on it? People say, well look at the grand canyon, ok i went in seventh grade, big deal, a flood dosen't explain that!!! There would be a shitload of grandcanyons everywhere.

Its a myth, just like Zeus, just like fucking santa claus. I mean you believe what you want but i think its bullshit, and if your god wants to send me to hell for using logic, and common sense, and choosing my own beliefts over his, well fuck that, ill burn.

[NaykidApe]

:rolleyes: Like I said, scholars believe the prophetic portions of Daniel were written sometime during the second cent. BC, by that time all the prophicies we were talking about had already been fullfilled (ie, all the events had already taken place by the time it was written).

So the fact that we have a 2000 year old copy doesn't mean anything (for the purposes of this discussion).

Using the scrolls as proof is like taking a history book that was written last year that talks about Columbus discoverring america 514 yrs ago and calling it "prophetic".

[JLPMGHRS]

Well, I here you on the dead see scrolls, I mean shit I guess if a few scientists determine it has to be.... But come one the bible is such crap, along with mythology, folklore,santa claus, and fairy tales.

I believe in god, but not a deity, or many deities, I believe god is all of us as one consciousness, there is no true way, no savior, no enlightened one no prophets nothing.

In my humble opinion, religion gives hope to people, that's a great thing, although false hope, it's hope.

But lets look logically at the "literal" meaning of the bible.

1.Adam and Eve- They were supposedly the first two people on earth, then where did all the different races and religions come from?, I mean they would have passed their genes and beliefs down through all the generations, right? But, there are alot of different races around the world, differents religions and beliefs exc. Now lets look at how much shit it is. Ok one day, an all perfect god, decided well fuck i guess i need people to worship me, wait, what!?, If he was there forever always perfect, god would not need anything to complete him or asure him he is great, 2. We were made "imperfect", If that god was so perfect, how could he think imperfect thoughts?, how could he make imperfect creatures, unless 1. it is myth 2. he is imperfect just as man.

Another one, god supposedly knows, everything past, present, future, he would never be suprised, right? Well why would he be asking adam where he was hiding, i mean he is omnipresent right? He should know. Yet again another flaw in the perfectness of yahweh.

2. Noahs ark, Well one day god decided to flood the earth cause nobody was following his way, ok he picks this holy dude named noah, he gathers all the animals from the earth, and brings them on a boat, Wow, thats stupid, what about fish he would have to get them too, saltwater fish and freshwaer fish cannot live in eachothers enviornment, they would die, therefore making them extinct. How big was this boat excactly, to fit two of every living creature on it? People say, well look at the grand canyon, ok i went in seventh grade, big deal, a flood dosen't explain that!!! There would be a shitload of grandcanyons everywhere.

Its a myth, just like Zeus, just like fucking santa claus. I mean you believe what you want but i think its bullshit, and if your god wants to send me to hell for using logic, and common sense, and choosing my own beliefts over his, well fuck that, ill burn.
So you believe that you and I and the rest of the people on this site are God?

Hasn't science shown that men can be traced back to common ancestors, even men of different "races". And surely, just because you parents have a certain belief or religion doesn't mean you will adopt that as well. I'm sure a good number of non-christians on this site have christian parents and likewise a good number of christians on this site have parents who are non-christians. The bible even shows that the Jews who were being led by God out of Egypt still rebelled and built a golden idol to worship.

Who says that God created men to complete himself? The bible certainly never communicates this idea. And yes we are imperfect creatures but we have to take into account that we have been given freewill since the beginning. With this freedom of choice comes the potential for evil and from man's fall until now we have been living in a cursed creation. God could have created us as robots that would do whatever he wanted but in this scenario love would be meaningless. having a relationship with God would not be the same.

And I don't think God asking Adam "Where are you?" in Gen 3:9 should call into question God's omnipresence. It's similar to God asking Satan where he had come from in the book of Job or God going down to Sodom and Gommorah to find out how bad their sin actually was. He's calling them to account. We use this kind of language as well. Parents do it with their kids, asking them what they have done or where they are even if they know already beacuse they want them to face up to what they did. God will be justified before Adam when he speaks.

[campbell34]

Well, I here you on the dead see scrolls, I mean shit I guess if a few scientists determine it has to be.... But come one the bible is such crap, along with mythology, folklore,santa claus, and fairy tales.

I believe in god, but not a deity, or many deities, I believe god is all of us as one consciousness, there is no true way, no savior, no enlightened one no prophets nothing.

In my humble opinion, religion gives hope to people, that's a great thing, although false hope, it's hope.

But lets look logically at the "literal" meaning of the bible.

1.Adam and Eve- They were supposedly the first two people on earth, then where did all the different races and religions come from?, I mean they would have passed their genes and beliefs down through all the generations, right? But, there are alot of different races around the world, differents religions and beliefs exc. Now lets look at how much shit it is. Ok one day, an all perfect god, decided well fuck i guess i need people to worship me, wait, what!?, If he was there forever always perfect, god would not need anything to complete him or asure him he is great, 2. We were made "imperfect", If that god was so perfect, how could he think imperfect thoughts?, how could he make imperfect creatures, unless 1. it is myth 2. he is imperfect just as man.

Another one, god supposedly knows, everything past, present, future, he would never be suprised, right? Well why would he be asking adam where he was hiding, i mean he is omnipresent right? He should know. Yet again another flaw in the perfectness of yahweh.

2. Noahs ark, Well one day god decided to flood the earth cause nobody was following his way, ok he picks this holy dude named noah, he gathers all the animals from the earth, and brings them on a boat, Wow, thats stupid, what about fish he would have to get them too, saltwater fish and freshwaer fish cannot live in eachothers enviornment, they would die, therefore making them extinct. How big was this boat excactly, to fit two of every living creature on it? People say, well look at the grand canyon, ok i went in seventh grade, big deal, a flood dosen't explain that!!! There would be a shitload of grandcanyons everywhere.

Its a myth, just like Zeus, just like fucking santa claus. I mean you believe what you want but i think its bullshit, and if your god wants to send me to hell for using logic, and common sense, and choosing my own beliefts over his, well fuck that, ill burn.

1. On the dead sea scrolls more than a few scientist believe they are 2,000 years old. I would say the vast majority of people in the field have no problem with that age.

2. The different races came about because of many reasons. Some because of diet, some local exposure to degrees of sun light, some because of different human traits that were expanded on over time, ect.

Well don't rule out the flood because you think such a thing would be impossible. Pillar lava is formed only when lava is coming out of the earth and is underwater. On Mount Arrat at the 14,000 foot level they have discovered pillar lava. Since the mountain is volcanic, do you have any idea how pillar lava got there? The Bible use to speak of a city which many non believers use to say did not exist. Yet after thousands of years, a farmer plowing his field hit a stone. He quickly tried to move it but found the stone would not be moved. Soon he dug deeper and to his surprise he found the city the Bible spoke of. Sometimes things talked about in the Bible does not seem possible, yet when you do the research you often discover they in fact are possible and do exist.

I believe what I believe not only because of the Bible, but because I have heard the voice of God. He is no myth. He is a real person who died on the cross for all the sins of the world. It has been my experience, that the more you give your life to Him, the more He reveals to you who He is.

The prophecies of the Bible are true, and all will come to pass as the Bible declared they would. The Jews returning to Israel is just a small part of those prophecies. There is much in the Bible which speaks of the United States, and what is going to happen to our nation.

[NaykidApe]

1. On the dead sea scrolls more than a few scientist believe they are 2,000 years old. I would say the vast majority of people in the field have no problem with that age.
(sigh, guess I'm talking to myself here) Yes, the scrolls are over 2000 yrs old. What do you think this proves exactly?

JLPMGHRS was saying the book of Daniel was written around 530 BC (that's 2536 yrs ago). If the prophecies it spoke of were already fullfilled before the the first century (slightly over 2000 yrs ago), then what exactly does a copy from the first century prove (except that you're really lousy at math)?

It's really a rhetorical question anyway. I know all you we're really doing by bringing up the scrolls is what you always do when you don't have a viable answer; subtlely change the subject and hope nobody notices.

Freedom Man, please don't fall for this shit.

[fat_tony]

The dead sea scrolls are post christ but not by much. That said I dont know if thats the oldest known copies of some of the prophecies.

[NaykidApe]

The dead sea scrolls are post christ but not by much. That said I dont know if thats the oldest known copies of some of the prophecies.

Some of the manuscripts/fragments are dated much earlier (I think 3rd cent BCE, but don't quote me). Some are dated as late as just before the destruction of the temple in 69AD.

I'm fairly certain these are the oldest known copies of any of the books of the Old Testement/Tanakh.

[campbell34]

(sigh, guess I'm talking to myself here) Yes, the scrolls are over 2000 yrs old. What do you think this proves exactly?

JLPMGHRS was saying the book of Daniel was written around 530 BC (that's 2536 yrs ago). If the prophecies it spoke of were already fullfilled before the the first century (slightly over 2000 yrs ago), then what exactly does a copy from the first century prove (except that you're really lousy at math)?

It's really a rhetorical question anyway. I know all you we're really doing by bringing up the scrolls is what you always do when you don't have a viable answer; subtlely change the subject and hope nobody notices.

Freedom Man, please don't fall for this shit.
Well if you read the post by Freedom Man you would of understood he did not believe the scrolls were even 2,000 years old. What it proves is that the Prophecies that speak of the Jews returning to Israel in the latter days were written long before Israel was reborn as a nation today. My viable answer is simply the Bible states history before it happens. And I may add, it does this in detail. And Israel today is fulfilling those ancient prophecies in detail. And those are details you ignore. And you must ignore them, for to accept them, you would have to agree that the Bible was authored by someone who has advanced knowledge. And that kind of Knowledge could only come from God. Because only God knows the future. You make your smart comments about me being lousy at math, while ignoring the major point I was trying to make.

[NaykidApe]

Well if you read the post by Freedom Man you would of understood he did not believe the scrolls were even 2,000 years old. What it proves is that the Prophecies that speak of the Jews returning to Israel in the latter days were written long before Israel was reborn as a nation today. My viable answer is simply the Bible states history before it happens. And I may add, it does this in detail. And Israel today is fulfilling those ancient prophecies in detail. And those are details you ignore. And you must ignore them, for to accept them, you would have to agree that the Bible was authored by someone who has advanced knowledge. And that kind of Knowledge could only come from God. Because only God knows the future. You make your smart comments about me being lousy at math, while ignoring the major point I was trying to make.


Campbell, either you're an idiot or you think everyone else in here is. Keep playing games. the people in here see you for what you are ;)

[campbell34]

:rolleyes: Like I said, scholars believe the prophetic portions of Daniel were written sometime during the second cent. BC, by that time all the prophicies we were talking about had already been fullfilled (ie, all the events had already taken place by the time it was written).

So the fact that we have a 2000 year old copy doesn't mean anything (for the purposes of this discussion).

Using the scrolls as proof is like taking a history book that was written last year that talks about Columbus discoverring america 514 yrs ago and calling it "prophetic".
The prophecies were not fulfilled in the second century not even close. Israel did not return as a nation in the second century, they were not led by one leader. They were not returning from all the nations of the world. In fact just the oppsite was happening. Israel in the second century was not a cup of trembling to the nations of the world. What scholars are you talking about? And what prophecies are you talking about?

[campbell34]

Campbell, either you're an idiot or you think everyone else in here is. Keep playing games. the people in here see you for what you are ;)
Talk about playing games, the prophecies are there and only an idiot would ignore them. My answers are based on sound information. Your shoot from the hip answeres lack research, and thought. Consider Ezekiel chapters 36, 37, 38, and 39, and tell me when these were fulfilled in the past.

[NaykidApe]

The prophecies were not fulfilled in the second century not even close. Israel did not return as a nation in the second century, they were not led by one leader.
You're confused;the book of Daniel is set during the babylonian captivity which ended in 535 bc, at which time the israelites were allowed to return to Jerusalem and rebuild the temple--well before the second cent BC. (all of which is a moot point since these specific prophecies aren't even in Daniel).

They were not returning from all the nations of the world.
Another prophecy which isn't in Daniel.

In fact just the oppsite was happening. Israel in the second century was not a cup of trembling to the nations of the world.
Again, this specific prophecy isn't in Daniel. I believe it's in Ezekiel.

What scholars are you talking about? And what prophecies are you talking about?
As far as the scholars go, the list would be too long. The belief that the prophetical portions of Daniel were written in the second cent. BC is generally accepted even among christian scholars.
It would take up much less space to show of list of scholars who believe Daniel was written before that date (in that I'd be willing to guess that you can't come up with more than two).

The specific prophecies we're talking about are the ones dealing with "the beast that rose out of the sea"--refferring to the 4 kingdoms ending with the Soulicid empire--and "the abomination of desolation" in reference to the empirial emblem erected at the entrance to the temple, which happened in about 165 BC.

[Lodui]

My church believes the bible was a misprint and dogs created heaven and earth.

[NaykidApe]

Talk about playing games, the prophecies are there and only an idiot would ignore them.
"There" is a little vague. And now which prophecies are you talking about?


My answers are based on sound information.
Yes, in that it "sound"s good to you (not much of a criteria).


Your shoot from the hip answeres lack research, and thought.
They would seem that way to someone who hasn't done any research themselves, and who considers "thought" the act of editing reality to conform to his predrawn conclusions.


Consider Ezekiel chapters 36, 37, 38, and 39, and tell me when these were fulfilled in the past.
When did I say they were? I don't know if you're aware of this but Daniel and Ezekiel are two different books.

[NaykidApe]

My church believes the bible was a misprint and dogs created heaven and earth.
That would make sense in that my dog seems to know more about what's in the bible than some of the christians in here.

[Lodui]

If I was a christian, I would focus on the overall theme of the bible rather then trying to infer the meaning of every passage anyway.

The devils in the details. http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif

[NaykidApe]

If I was a christian, I would focus on the overall theme of the bible
You don't have to be a christian to do this.

...rather then trying to infer the meaning of every passage anyway.
But you may have to do this ^ to be a christian.


There's no one cohesive theme throughout the books of the bible.

In order to make it seem like there is someone would have to rely on inference.

[ryupower]

He's proven true.

Why do you think He answers all my prayers? And why do you think that the things described in Mark 16 still happen today?
I know you may be a little skeptic, but...I believe, because He has proven Himself in my life, He has proven Himself by changing the sinner that I was ( I can tell You, it was only in His ability and His love that I could change...thank you LORD! ), He proves Himself with the personal relationship I, as a believer in Jesus Christ, have.

Let me tell you...someone I know was once crippled, her husband bashed her head into the floor and abused her so bad that her spine was actually shaped like an 's' ( not like the 's' by a normal person, I'm talking about a REAL-DEAL BADBUTT 'S'. O_O ) and I believe her neck was broken too...( not sure about that one, need to double-check. but anyways, She was crippled )
the Doctors were troubled in helping her, but one night she cried out to the LORD, after all the hurt she went through, " GOD if You're real, either Heal me or kill me! ". Guess what, Jesus actually ( here come the skeptics... ) came down with 2 angels and HEALED her. I mean HEALED HER, completely. The next day the Doctors came, and to their surprise she was completely, completely. No explanation possible. This is her testimony, and God got her husband too, they are now happily living together, und have an awesome relationship with each other. The end.

Annie ( her name ) has documental proof from the doctors on this occasion. :)
true story.


So we see alone by that testimony ( and hundreds to thousands more )
that God does answer prayers, how impossible the pleads may be.

And He does this CONSTANTLY, not only once, all the time! ( He's a very busy God...)

How many times has he answered my prayers? Always, same with the many other Christians who have a close walk with the Creator of the Universe. We were created to have a relationship with Him you know...the good news is that everyone can! If they repent of their sin and believe that Jesus is LORD, is the sacrificial lamb, and died for the sins of many, believe in the True word of God, they can have it. :)

" If you believe in your heart that Jesus is LORD, and believe that God raised Him from the dead, you WILL be saved. "

Besides the fulfilled prayer thing, as a Christian you don't just have the ability to talk to God, and have your prayers answered,- but God also talks to you.
You can listen to Him, and He WILL talk to you. And the things HE tells ME also have proven true.