The Qur'an lies about the Trinity!

[ryupower]

The Qur'an states in Surah 5:116 that Christians worship 3 Gods: the Father, the Mother(Mary), And the Son (Jesus).

and in Surah 5:73-75:
" They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three". (they're obviously talking about Christians)

This is certainly not true!

WE DO NOT worship Mary. You've got it all backwards.

The Trinity includes : The Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit.
However, Muhammed may have met with Choloridians, a (false) sect of Christianity, who had this false teaching.

And we don't worship 3 gods. We worship one Substance: God.

There's only one God. And he has 3 persons.
like an egg has 3 parts, but still is one. Or a human has a spirit, soul, and flesh, but still is one.

Could it be that the Qur'an's been altered like you say the Bible has?

[Burbot]

claudia, you also must remember when Mohammad had lived...600 CE...this is way before Prodestants cut away from the Catholic Church, and even before the time of the Crusades...

[BlackBillBlake]

Your post is just about right RYU.

The fact that Islam began before protestantism doesn't alter the truth of it. All of that was accepted Catholic doctrine centuries earlier.

[Burbot]

yeah, i know...i dont get what you mean..

what i emant is that to Mohammad [if he had any contact with Catholics] may have seen them worship like this, and thats why it says such...

my point was that because protestanism doesnt place as high of an emphasis on mary as catholisism does [and i know ryu is prodestant] and that it may seem weird/wrong to say such a thing...


was that last bit directed at me BBB?

[kiss_the_sky]

I hate the title of this topic. You can't say the Quran lies. It should be more appropriate if you say 'The Quran has a different view on the Trinity'.

Anyway, my Quran says this:

116 And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah ? he saith: Be glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I used to say it, then Thou knewest it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy Mind. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower of Things Hidden ?

(The Qur'an (Pickthall tr), Sura 5 - The Food)

73 They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no God save the One God. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve.

(The Qur'an (Pickthall tr), Sura 5 - The Food)

I don't think the Quran exactly states here that Mary is part of the Trinity. This part is not about the Trinity, but about the oneness of God. Muslims believe that Jesus is not part of the Trinity, they don't believe in the Trinity (at least not in the way Christians do). They believe Jesus to be a Prophet, an important Prophet, but not something like the Son of God. The point here is that Christians worship the Prophet and His mother, as well as God, and this is contrary to the Muslim point of view.

Again: there's no such thing as right or wrong here.

[BlackBillBlake]

was that last bit directed at me BBB?
Yes it was - I thought you might be suggesting that there may have been some Catholic doctrine at an earlier time where Mary was held to be a person of the Trinity. I see I was mistaken. It is well known that Muhhamud met with some Christians mainly in Syria, as I understand. They could have been Nestorians, and I'm not exactly sure without looking it up what their precise beliefs were. They were considered heretics by the church.
But you could be right that he'd seen Catholics praying to Mary, and thus reached a wrong conclusion that She was being worshiped.

I hate the title of this topic. You can't say the Quran lies. It should be more appropriate if you say 'The Quran has a different view on the Trinity'.

I agree kiss_the_sky - it isn't very well framed, and I hope Muslims won't be offended.

[cabdirazzaq]

The Qur'an states in Surah 5:116 that Christians worship 3 Gods: the Father, the Mother(Mary), And the Son (Jesus).

and in Surah 5:73-75:
" They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three". (they're obviously talking about Christians)

This is certainly not true!

WE DO NOT worship Mary. You've got it all backwards.

The Trinity includes : The Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit.
However, Muhammed may have met with Choloridians, a (false) sect of Christianity, who had this false teaching.

And we don't worship 3 gods. We worship one Substance: God.

There's only one God. And he has 3 persons.
like an egg has 3 parts, but still is one. Or a human has a spirit, soul, and flesh, but still is one.

Could it be that the Qur'an's been altered like you say the Bible has?
How can the Quran lie about something which the christians dont even have a consensus? Do you really think your view is the only view about the trinity or is there a vast hubble of views about this issue?

read the official rosary of the Catholic Church!
"Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy, hail, our life, our sweetness, and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve! To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this vale of tears. Turn then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us; and after this, our exile, show us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary!"

There were christians(and still might be some) that hold Mary as one in the trinity and there is without doubt millions and millions of christians who worship Mary (http://www.remnantofgod.org/godmary.htm)atelast once a week!


And we don't worship 3 gods. We worship one Substance: God.
Ofcourse... and the hindus worship one god, ask any hindu! Its "only" different manifistations... I dont call that monotheism, you want monotheism? Read my signature, thats monotheism.


Could it be that the Qur'an's been altered like you say the Bible has?

There is strong evidence for the authenticity of the Quran (http://quran.islamway.com/sudais/055.mp3) and a great number of non muslim scholars who support this. Why? Because it was written down while the prophet(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) was still breathing!!! and it was memorized and transmitted to the next generation.

They memorized every chapter, verse, word, letter in the original language and today there are atleast 9 000 000 people (can you give me one person who has memorized only one chapter of the bible in its original language?????) on this planet who know it all by heart! (I hope to be among them my self... I only have 6 chapters left of 114)

[BlackBillBlake]

"Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy, hail, our life, our sweetness, and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve! To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this vale of tears. Turn then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us; and after this, our exile, show us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary!"

There were christians(and still might be some) that hold Mary as one in the trinity and there is without doubt millions and millions of christians who worship Mary (http://www.remnantofgod.org/godmary.htm)atelast once a week!

The prayer you've quoted is not worshiping Mary. It is a prayer for Her intercession, for Her prayers. It is believed by Catholics that such intercession is possible, not only by Mary, but by the other Saints too.

She is called 'Queen of Heaven' not because She is to be thought of as a goddess of some kind, but because She is head of the saints in Heaven.

If there are Christians who worship Mary, they are a small minority. The Eastern Orthodox churches hold the same view as the Catholics, whilst Protestantism, Baptism etc, don't pray to the Virgin or to saints.

I don't know of any major church that holds Mary as a person of the Trinity. But there may be some small sects who do.

[ryupower]

How can the Quran lie about something which the christians dont even have a consensus? Do you really think your view is the only view about the trinity or is there a vast hubble of views about this issue?

read the official rosary of the Catholic Church!
"Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy, hail, our life, our sweetness, and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve! To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this vale of tears. Turn then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us; and after this, our exile, show us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary!"

There were christians(and still might be some) that hold Mary as one in the trinity and there is without doubt millions and millions of christians who worship Mary (http://www.remnantofgod.org/godmary.htm)atelast once a week!

Ofcourse... and the hindus worship one god, ask any hindu! Its "only" different manifistations... I dont call that monotheism, you want monotheism? Read my signature, thats monotheism.


There is strong evidence for the authenticity of the Quran (http://quran.islamway.com/sudais/055.mp3) and a great number of non muslim scholars who support this. Why? Because it was written down while the prophet(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) was still breathing!!! and it was memorized and transmitted to the next generation.

They memorized every chapter, verse, word, letter in the original language and today there are atleast 9 000 000 people (can you give me one person who has memorized only one chapter of the bible in its original language?????) on this planet who know it all by heart! (I hope to be among them my self... I only have 6 chapters left of 114)
There is no evidance in the Bible that Mary's part of the trinity...

Burbot. You're partially right. :)

That's why I added:
However, Muhammed may have met with Choloridians, a (false) sect of Christianity, who had this false teaching.
The Mary worship in the Catholic Church was to get Pagans in.
That's why Protestants don't follow it, as well as no evidence in God's Word. ;)

[cabdirazzaq]

Bill, if you dont think thats worshipping then obviously we dont define worship the same. Asking someone to pray for you does not have to mean worshipping this person unless s/he is dead! Whats the difference of praying to a dead for salvation or praying to a dead who will then pass it on to God for salvation?(Since the dead can't hear your prayers nor answer them, if they could then youve made them divine)

Mary worship is an established fact in the catholic church(The [old] Pope even declared that salvation depends on her aswell) and catholics are the largest christian group.

"And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say).[5.116]

Ryu, would you mind presenting some verses(or just one verse) where Jesus(peace be upon him) commands or allows his companions to worship him besides God or will you find him commanding them to worship his Lord?

[drumminmama]

actually, Xtians have always altered their "great words" to fit circumstances. Many saints and possibly/probably Joshua/later Jesus himself are adaptations of earlier faiths.
Keep your prostelytizing to yourself: I have read the Xtian bible, four translations, and Study Torah Talmud on a regular basis.
I also read the Epic of Gilamagesh about the semidivine saviour.
In fact I've read by choice most accepted holy books.
Believe what you want. but quit maligning other faiths while you are at it.

[BlackBillBlake]

Bill, if you dont think thats worshipping then obviously we dont define worship the same. Asking someone to pray for you does not have to mean worshipping this person unless s/he is dead! Whats the difference of praying to a dead for salvation or praying to a dead who will then pass it on to God for salvation?(Since the dead can't hear your prayers nor answer them, if they could then youve made them divine)

Mary worship is an established fact in the catholic church(The [old] Pope even declared that salvation depends on her aswell) and catholics are the largest christian group.

"And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say).[5.116]

Ryu, would you mind presenting some verses(or just one verse) where Jesus(peace be upon him) commands or allows his companions to worship him besides God or will you find him commanding them to worship his Lord?
I don't see much point in continuing dispute on this point. I have stated what the Church doctrine is regarding the Blessed Virgin - if you are not comfortable with it, that is your prerogative.

You ask what is the difference between asking someone living to pray for you and praying to saints. The difference is that the saints are with God, they have completed successfully this round of life in the world.

[ryupower]

Bill, if you dont think thats worshipping then obviously we dont define worship the same. Asking someone to pray for you does not have to mean worshipping this person unless s/he is dead! Whats the difference of praying to a dead for salvation or praying to a dead who will then pass it on to God for salvation?(Since the dead can't hear your prayers nor answer them, if they could then youve made them divine)

Mary worship is an established fact in the catholic church(The [old] Pope even declared that salvation depends on her aswell) and catholics are the largest christian group.

"And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say).[5.116]

Ryu, would you mind presenting some verses(or just one verse) where Jesus(peace be upon him) commands or allows his companions to worship him besides God or will you find him commanding them to worship his Lord?

I've given you enough by now. :p

[cabdirazzaq]

You havent acually, the verses you showed me said nothing about worship.

[hailtothekingbaby]

Lying is something completely different from not telling the truth. To lie is to knowingly and deliberately falsificating evidence. Simply making a mistake or forgetting something, which is never deliberate and not often knowingly, is also part of the whole that 'not telling the truth' is.

Besides, who says that you, or the bible or the preacher or even the disciples have got it so perfectly right? They can also forget, make mistakes, even scrap or add parts of the story and lie about things. The other way around, when I say everything the bible says about god is false, I may just have it wrong, but that's what I believe so at least I'm not deliberately saying it's wrong while I know or believe it is right.

All I want to say is, truth isn't as simple as it looks, and has no solid antithesis. The Koran most probably was not lying.

[BlackBillBlake]

I've been thinking about this, and on reflection, I wish I'd not responded to this thread. Not because I retract any of what I've said, which I think is about right, but because although RYU may not have intended it, it could be an offensive title for Muslims.


The very worst way to seek to promote one's own ideas is to insult, albiet un-wittingly the deeply held beliefs of others.

[Kharakov]

The very worst way to seek to promote one's own ideas is to insult, albiet un-wittingly the deeply held beliefs of others. Unless you have superior tactical / spiritual strength. Then insult away, they can't do anything about it.

[ryupower]

You havent acually, the verses you showed me said nothing about worship.
Didn't you say you haven't read all of it, because I've posted to much ( I agree, that WAS quite alot in one load ^^; ) ?

Here was the one I had put emphesis on the most:


22 For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, 23 that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. NKJV


Peace. :)

[Burbot]

which book is that ryu?

[ryupower]

which book is that ryu?
John 5:18-23

NKJV

:)

[Meagain]

Please read the sticky at the top of this Forum titled "Please Read".

[trotsky]

the trinity was created by the nicean council.

[cabdirazzaq]

the trinity was created by the nicean council.
You are a very clever kid, but will the christians ever accept this historicaly preserved event as true?

[Nimrod's Apprentice]

Islam needs to go, its the only way to put an end to the Islamofaschists. Who are no worse than the Nazis.

[Christian]

yogsogoth Al-subuzneth Beelzebub

fnorgd cthuhlu.

[kiss_the_sky]

You are a very clever kid, but will the christians ever accept this historicaly preserved event as true?
No, too bad. But it's not that bad.

Though I think the oneness of God is a very very very important concept and I don't see what we 'gained' by introducing the trinity.

[cabdirazzaq]

Christian, what does that mean?
Kiss, I didnt know you were christian(it says other in ur profile), always thought you were like agonostic or something.

[Kharakov]

Christian, what does that mean? Poe's works. Edgar Allen Poe. You can find them online at Project Gutenberg, along with many other books (including several translations of the Qu'ran, although it's listed under the title "The Koran").

http://www.gutenberg.org/browse/authors/p

Poe is approximately 2/3's of the way through the page.

[Shaitan]

cabdi - he's actually quoting LOVECRAFT if I remember correctly - a pulp horror novelist from the early part of the 20th century who wrote imaginative stories about an entire pantheon of horrible deities and the monsters that worship them....

Chief amongst them the Lord of the Universe being the blind, mad, insane and stupid Azathoth. The black trickster God Nyarlathotep, the octopus-headed bat-winged great Cthulhu lying in suspended animation in the deeps of the sea, Dagon and Hydra the largest and greatest of the Deep Ones - as well as Fungi from Yuggoth (Pluto), the Hounds of Tindalos who travel sideways through time, etc. inventive stuff. Ruled the horror genre - he basically "open sourced" his universe and invited others to write about "that nameless, gibbering horror, whose appearance I cannot.... I MUST NOT.... remember!!!!" etc. That's why King was so refreshing when he came on the scene, writing about the here and now rather than some dusty tomb somewhere. But Lovecraft's vision was of the human race being this lone outpost of good and decency in a hateful uncaring universe filled with deities of incredible malevolence and alien races with fantastic power and even less conscience.

Also central to the Mythos (as it came to be called) was the notion of the (fictitious) Necronomicon - a book of blasphemy and black magic written by the Mad Arab Al-hazred - and various incantations in non human languages such as "ia! ia! Cthulhu f'taghn!" etc.

Yog-sothoth was another of his creations.

It's interesting to note that several groups of people have actually taken up the Cthulhu mythos pantheon as legitimate Gods, even though they admit that the religion is deliberately invented and that they have found the worship of fictitious Gods to give them something in their lives. Absolute and outrightly horrifying to a Muslim, naturally! I'm not suggesting Christian is one of these - just pointing out that the inventiveness of Howard Philips Lovecraft even extends to faith these days.

[Kharakov]

cabdi - he's actually quoting LOVECRAFT if I remember correctly You're right.
It's interesting to note that several groups of people have actually taken up the Cthulhu mythos pantheon as legitimate Gods, even though they admit that the religion is deliberately invented and that they have found the worship of fictitious Gods to give them something in their lives. Absolute and outrightly horrifying to a Muslim, naturally! People need to learn to take spiritual dumps.

[kiss_the_sky]

Christian, what does that mean?
Kiss, I didnt know you were christian(it says other in ur profile), always thought you were like agonostic or something.
Well, officially I'm a christian. But right now I don't really know what I am :) Guess I have to keep searching...

[ShimonOmer]

Dudes, please. Catholic churches are houses of idol worship, plain and simple.

[cabdirazzaq]

I truly wonder what Christ would say if he saw what happens inside these churches. It makes me suprised to see a people follow what their fathers did and what their priests tell them instead of following the one they claim to follow(that is the Christ).

[ryupower]

I truly wonder what Christ would say if he saw what happens inside these churches. It makes me suprised to see a people follow what their fathers did and what their priests tell them instead of following the one they claim to follow(that is the Christ).
Yes, sad, but true, you talkin' 'bout catholicism,eh? But it also depends which country you're in. In America, for instance, they've got a wider range of churches than in Germany, where AT LEAST 90% of Churches are Lutheran/Catholic, followed by Baptist (maybe 2%...). The others are extremely rare...:(

[cabdirazzaq]

No I was talking about churches in general acually. I mean, the first thing to notice is the huge naked guy who is on a cross (I believe call this person Christ though I cant see how he could be blond and blue eyed, which reminds me of a a greek pilospher(perhaps Xenofanes??) who said that: The africans paitnt their gods as black eyed and big nosed while the europeans as blonds and blue eyed, and he said: If an ox could paint it would draw its god looking as an ox) who is either in statue or in picture inside most churches Ive ever seen. Prayer differs from church to church but its almost always followed by some sort of music, where in the words of christ do you find that kind of prayer?

The man prostrated in complete submission and asked forgivness from his lord while (many of) the catholics ask their priest for forgivness and the protestants Ive met dont even seem to bother as they are "already saved".
Ever since the pauline church became dominant to the Jersualem church which was led by James the church lost its Jewish orgin and slowly came farer and farer away from the orginal message. Its usually said that if Siddharta Gautama would return and see what happend to buddhism he wouldnt be all suprised while if Christ would(and we will) return he would indeed become angry to say the least.

[Burbot]

No I was talking about churches in general acually. I mean, the first thing to notice is the huge naked guy who is on a cross (I believe call this person Christ though I cant see how he could be blond and blue eyed, which reminds me of a a greek pilospher(perhaps Xenofanes??) who said that: The africans paitnt their gods as black eyed and big nosed while the europeans as blonds and blue eyed, and he said: If an ox could paint it would draw its god looking as an ox) who is either in statue or in picture inside most churches Ive ever seen. Prayer differs from church to church but its almost always followed by some sort of music, where in the words of christ do you find that kind of prayer?

The man prostrated in complete submission and asked forgivness from his lord while (many of) the catholics ask their priest for forgivness and the protestants Ive met dont even seem to bother as they are "already saved".
Ever since the pauline church became dominant to the Jersualem church which was led by James the church lost its Jewish orgin and slowly came farer and farer away from the orginal message. Its usually said that if Siddharta Gautama would return and see what happend to buddhism he wouldnt be all suprised while if Christ would(and we will) return he would indeed become angry to say the least.

i agree 100% with the Anglo-Saxon depiction of Jesus, well , with basically any depiction of Him...we have no idea what He looked like, and well, i see creating them as going against the 2nd Commandment

about the forgiveness, the practice is different in the 3 main factions of Christanity...Catholics confess to an ordained minister, which i think stems from the diciples of Jesus given the authority to absolve the sins of the faithful...

with Eastern Orthodoxy, a person still confesses to God, but in the presense of an "elder". This is from the early Christain practice when they would publicly repent to God, and then the believers they were with would announce the forgiveness... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_Church#Mystery_of_Repentance i might have missed some important stuff, so here is the link i got it from if anyone wants to check it out...

With prodestants, when they confess, well at least when i do [im not really a prodestant, im not really anythign], i ask the Father to forgive me through His mercy, cause it is through His mercy alone that we can enter heaven [this is an Eastern Orthodoxy belief]...i think i was gonna say somethign more...

[Epiphany]

the trinity was created by the nicean council.

I am glad someone pointed this out.

The Trinity was created by the Nicene council as a means to unite Pagans and Christians. The Pagans refused to worship merely one God, thus, by declaring that the Godhead was triune, Paganism and Christianity could coexist in one empire.

[ryupower]

No I was talking about churches in general acually. I mean, the first thing to notice is the huge naked guy who is on a cross (I believe call this person Christ though I cant see how he could be blond and blue eyed, which reminds me of a a greek pilospher(perhaps Xenofanes??) who said that: The africans paitnt their gods as black eyed and big nosed while the europeans as blonds and blue eyed, and he said: If an ox could paint it would draw its god looking as an ox) who is either in statue or in picture inside most churches Ive ever seen. Prayer differs from church to church but its almost always followed by some sort of music, where in the words of christ do you find that kind of prayer?
lol, I understand that the Islamic and Christian doctrines differ completely, So let's see:
"Prayer differs from church to church but its almost always followed by some sort of music, where in the words of christ do you find that kind of prayer?"

If I understand this correctly, you don't know of any ritualistic prayers that Christ gives you- like the one you do 5 times a day after a cleansing ceremony/ritual...
If this is not what you meant correct me...

Anyways, our answer to that is plain and simple: There are no ritualistic prayers, except maybe the Our Father which Jesus gave as an example (many do it once a week, but it's not required unless God puts it on their heart.)
In fact, the Bible gives us no rituals at all! There are no rituals, only faith, and obediance. ;)

The man prostrated in complete submission and asked forgivness from his lord while (many of) the catholics ask their priest for forgivness and the protestants Ive met dont even seem to bother as they are "already saved".
Ever since the pauline church became dominant to the Jersualem church which was led by James the church lost its Jewish orgin and slowly came farer and farer away from the orginal message. Its usually said that if Siddharta Gautama would return and see what happend to buddhism he wouldnt be all suprised while if Christ would(and we will) return he would indeed become angry to say the least. I hear that alot by Muslims...

I'm not protestant, I'm not Catholic, not even Orthodox, I'm a Christian, a plain, simple, Christian! :P

Yes, Christ is probably realy upset about the lack of unity, but before the day of Judgement comes we will be completely united. It's already starting though. :)

The point is to be just Christian, and not strictly part of some denomination, that's religion. Eventhough I prefer Non-denominational/pentacostal churches,
You could stick me in a Baptist Church, you could stick me in a Lutheran, a Methodist, or even a Catholic Church, and I couldn't care less. :P

And BTW: there's a type of Church that's probably the most like the Jerusalem one...
it's called Messianic. Which is a Church (or synagogue, whatever one prefers...) founded by Messianic Jews, like Peter was! :D
Jews...that believe in Y'shua! ^^

[ryupower]

I am glad someone pointed this out.

The Trinity was created by the Nicene council as a means to unite Pagans and Christians. The Pagans refused to worship merely one God, thus, by declaring that the Godhead was triune, Paganism and Christianity could coexist in one empire.
I agree, the 'trinity' comes from the paganistic, making it seem like three Gods connected.

But I believe you do agree that the Holy Spirit, Jesus, and The Father are all one. Displayed differently from the Paganistic God.

Pagan Trinity: 3 Gods United in one. like 3 people holding hands together. Or a chain made up of three parts.

Christian 'Trinity': One God united in 3. Like 1 person having 3 hands. Or an Egg: The Shell, the white part, and the yellow part...yet still one egg. ;)

I was only trying to point out that Mary isn't part of either. ;P

[Burbot]

Anyways, our answer to that is plain and simple: There are no ritualistic prayers, except maybe the Our Father which Jesus gave as an example (many do it once a week, but it's not required unless God puts it on their heart.)
In fact, the Bible gives us no rituals at all! There are no rituals, only faith, and obediance. ;)

wel technically the Bible gives has quite a few rituals, given the Old Testament :rolleyes:

but yes, the "Lord's Prayer" is the only prayer Jesus says to give, He also says that when you pray, you should lock yourself in your closet, which i guess could be consiered a ritual if you wanna get all technical about it
;) :)

[Epiphany]

I agree, the 'trinity' comes from the paganistic, making it seem like three Gods connected.

But I believe you do agree that the Holy Spirit, Jesus, and The Father are all one. Displayed differently from the Paganistic God.

Pagan Trinity: 3 Gods United in one. like 3 people holding hands together. Or a chain made up of three parts.

Christian 'Trinity': One God united in 3. Like 1 person having 3 hands. Or an Egg: The Shell, the white part, and the yellow part...yet still one egg. ;)

I was only trying to point out that Mary isn't part of either. ;P
Yes, God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are one. However, the trinity states that they are separate.

[Love_N_it]

"HAIL MARY FULL OF GRACE, THE LORD IS WITH THEE. BLESSED ART THOU AMONG WOMEN AND BLESSED IS THE FRUIT OF THY WOMB, JESUS. Holy Mary, Mother of God, PRAY FOR US SINNERS, NOW AND AT THE HOUR OF OUR DEATH. AMEN."

I wouldn't say it doesn't matter what any of the 'rulebooks' say, but in my eyes, the Father Son and Holy Spirit have a mother to worship for providing them with the source where their miracle of life was generated... they don't have a Father to worship. Among the many other contradictions that are hard for anybody to accurately determine who is right, eventhough God does not have a father source of life to worship, contained in His words are direct instructions to NOT worship your mother. Worship only Him, and create no other false gods, even if some people understand what they are surrounded with, it is wrong to worship our environment because that would be a betrayal of God.
this is one of the main reasons I cannot dismiss the possibility that the 'word of God' could have been written by a man with a malicious mind that had something to gain by encouraging people to remain calm, and have faith in our Father, eventho' we are rapidly eating away the potential existence of His Mother.
It's funny how much this government stresses all of their new ACTS, Bills or changes in structure.... change to become more 'consumer friendly'.
we have definitely consumed more than our fare share in past 30 years, the bad thing is, all of our shit is toxic and I don't believe that poison can ever be washed away or burned from this earth.

"HAIL MARY FULL OF GRACE, THE LORD IS WITH THEE. BLESSED ART THOU AMONG WOMEN AND BLESSED IS THE FRUIT OF THY WOMB, JESUS. Holy Mary, Mother of God, PRAY FOR US SINNERS, NOW AND AT THE HOUR OF OUR DEATH. AMEN."

It's not like a mad-cow can bitch and complain about her problems.

[ryupower]

Yes, God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are one. However, the trinity states that they are separate.
Yes, quite deceiving, but what else shall we call it? :confused:

I use the mainstream word...^^;

[ryupower]

wel technically the Bible gives has quite a few rituals, given the Old Testament :rolleyes:

but yes, the "Lord's Prayer" is the only prayer Jesus says to give, He also says that when you pray, you should lock yourself in your closet, which i guess could be consiered a ritual if you wanna get all technical about it
;) :) Well yes, that's true! I was talking about the Christian Part though! ^^;

Maybe I should have been more precise! New Testament, sorry...(yes, yes, we Christians are weak. :p )

[ryupower]

"HAIL MARY FULL OF GRACE, THE LORD IS WITH THEE. BLESSED ART THOU AMONG WOMEN AND BLESSED IS THE FRUIT OF THY WOMB, JESUS. Holy Mary, Mother of God, PRAY FOR US SINNERS, NOW AND AT THE HOUR OF OUR DEATH. AMEN."

I wouldn't say it doesn't matter what any of the 'rulebooks' say, but in my eyes, the Father Son and Holy Spirit have a mother to worship for providing them with the source where their miracle of life was generated... they don't have a Father to worship. Among the many other contradictions that are hard for anybody to accurately determine who is right, eventhough God does not have a father source of life to worship, contained in His words are direct instructions to NOT worship your mother. Worship only Him, and create no other false gods, even if some people understand what they are surrounded with, it is wrong to worship our environment because that would be a betrayal of God.
this is one of the main reasons I cannot dismiss the possibility that the 'word of God' could have been written by a man with a malicious mind that had something to gain by encouraging people to remain calm, and have faith in our Father, eventho' we are rapidly eating away the potential existence of His Mother.
It's funny how much this government stresses all of their new ACTS, Bills or changes in structure.... change to become more 'consumer friendly'.
we have definitely consumed more than our fare share in past 30 years, the bad thing is, all of our shit is toxic and I don't believe that poison can ever be washed away or burned from this earth.

"HAIL MARY FULL OF GRACE, THE LORD IS WITH THEE. BLESSED ART THOU AMONG WOMEN AND BLESSED IS THE FRUIT OF THY WOMB, JESUS. Holy Mary, Mother of God, PRAY FOR US SINNERS, NOW AND AT THE HOUR OF OUR DEATH. AMEN."

It's not like a mad-cow can bitch and complain about her problems.
Catholicism.
It don't say it in the Bible.

[cabdirazzaq]

It doesnt say anything about God being three in one either...

Deut 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:


Job 6:10 Then should I yet have comfort; yea, I would harden myself in sorrow: let him not spare; for I have not concealed the words of the Holy One.

Ps 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Ps 71:22 I will also praise thee with the psaltery, even thy truth, O my God: unto thee will I sing with the harp, O thou Holy One of Israel.

Ps 78:41 Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel.

Ps 89:18 For the LORD is our defence; and the Holy One of Israel is our king.

Isa 1:4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.

Isa 1:24 Therefore saith the Lord, the LORD of hosts, the mighty One of Israel, Ah, I will ease me of mine adversaries, and avenge me of mine enemies:

Isa 5:19 That say, Let him make speed, and hasten his work, that we may see it: and let the counsel of the Holy One of Israel draw nigh and come, that we may know it!

Isa 5:24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.

Matt 23:10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.


Mark 1:24 Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

Mark 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

Luke 18:19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

and on and on and on...

[kiss_the_sky]

:) good post Adam

[ryupower]

It doesnt say anything about God being three in one either...


Yes it does.

1 John 5:7-8
7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit ; and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.
NKJV

And Adam, who is the Son of God?

[Epiphany]

Colossians 2:9 says, "For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form", which is in reference to the Godhead.

[cabdirazzaq]

Why do you keep on quoting a fabricated verse? When the RSV(other bibles did the same, such as New Revised Standard Version, the New American Standard Bible, the New English Bible, the Phillips Modern English Bible ...etc. ) bible was released it vilified the trinitans who at that time had noticed that the only verse supporting the trinitary belief had acually been removed, claiming that the verse indeed was a fabricated product from Medevil times.

As for the NIV, they left it in with the following note; Late manuscripts of the Vulgate testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. 8 And there are three that testify on earth: the (not found in any Greek manuscript before the sixteenth century)

This was also discussed by Isaaq Newton in a essay entitled "A Historical Account of Two Notable Corruptions of Scripture." i.e 5.7 and Timothy 3.16. Newton claimed that the first that this verse first appeared in the third edition of Erasmus's New Testament.

This belief -as I noted before- has its roots in polytheistic dogmas which can not be substainsuated in the bible. This is not just a muslim belief, but also a historical fact; the early christians did not believe in any trinity. It wasn't until(approx) the Pauline church had won over the Jerusalem church(led by James, they believed in God as being the one and only. During the suceeding years several other scholars claimed that God was indeed ONLY one and denied the Pauline beliefs, many of these were later punished or poisned by the church it self) that the monothestic faith that Christ had fought to protect had been started to face serious changes.

Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely Allah, He is the Messiah, son of Mary; and the Messiah said: O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord (5.72)

[cabdirazzaq]

Yes it does.
And Adam, who is the Son of God?
According to the OT; Adam, David, Abraham and Jacob(peace be upon them all). Despite being called that, no jew would ever worship one of these prophets, would he? It is clear that the meaning is not literal even though I would my self never use the term to any of the Lords creation.

[ryupower]

Why do you keep on quoting a fabricated verse? When the RSV(other bibles did the same, such as New Revised Standard Version, the New American Standard Bible, the New English Bible, the Phillips Modern English Bible ...etc. ) bible was released it vilified the trinitans who at that time had noticed that the only verse supporting the trinitary belief had acually been removed, claiming that the verse indeed was a fabricated product from Medevil times.

As for the NIV, they left it in with the following note; Late manuscripts of the Vulgate testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. 8 And there are three that testify on earth: the (not found in any Greek manuscript before the sixteenth century)

This was also discussed by Isaaq Newton in a essay entitled "A Historical Account of Two Notable Corruptions of Scripture." i.e 5.7 and Timothy 3.16. Newton claimed that the first that this verse first appeared in the third edition of Erasmus's New Testament.

This belief -as I noted before- has its roots in polytheistic dogmas which can not be substainsuated in the bible. This is not just a muslim belief, but also a historical fact; the early christians did not believe in any trinity. It wasn't until(approx) the Pauline church had won over the Jerusalem church(led by James, they believed in God as being the one and only. During the suceeding years several other scholars claimed that God was indeed ONLY one and denied the Pauline beliefs, many of these were later punished or poisned by the church it self) that the monothestic faith that Christ had fought to protect had been started to face serious changes.

Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely Allah, He is the Messiah, son of Mary; and the Messiah said: O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord (5.72)
And then there's Jesus' quote:

Matthew 28:19
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit ,
NKJV

[ryupower]

According to the OT; Adam, David, Abraham and Jacob(peace be upon them all). Despite being called that, no jew would ever worship one of these prophets, would he? It is clear that the meaning is not literal even though I would my self never use the term to any of the Lords creation.
But it seems like there's only one...

[Epiphany]

historical fact; the early christians did not believe in any trinity.As we have both stated before, the Trinity was not created until 325 A.D. Trinity concept claims that three distinctly separate individuals make up one Godhead. In reality, the Godhead is made up of three manifestations of one Lord.

1. God, the father of all creation.
2. Jesus, deity living inside of a human body as the blood sacrifice for the sin of mankind.
3. The Holy Spirit, the Spirit which Jesus Christ gave up upon the cross.

They are one

[myrtje]

claudia, you also must remember when Mohammad had lived...600 CE...this is way before Prodestants cut away from the Catholic Church, and even before the time of the Crusades...
The Catholic Church also believes in the Trinity, of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Not Mary, she isnt worshipped like God is.

[Burbot]

yes, i know [now]...Mary is spoken to, as if alive, and asked to pray for the person speaking to her [as Catholic Christains and Orthodox Christains do with all the saints]...but i meant like, it could have appeared to Mohammad as though the Catholics were praying to her, and worshiping her

[cabdirazzaq]

The pope called her "the mother of God", this is blashpemy enough... not to mention the fact that alot of the catholics use her as a mediate between God and them. In islam there is no such thing, the matter is only between you and God and not a group of priest who are "near to God" or saints(an innovation that has nothing to do with the monotheistic faith God had sent) or the purified Mary. The christian that claims hes only using her as a way of intercession is no more different in this aspect than the hindu who claims the exact same thing with his idols, hes not acually directing the prayer to them, "only through them".

Now I'm not sure how or what you qualify as polytheism but when I read this official rosary of the Catholic Church I cant help but notice a massive input of Mary worship

"Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy, hail, our life, our sweetness, and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve! To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this vale of tears. Turn then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us; and after this, our exile, show us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary!"

Epiphany, since your a wise woman you know very well that the "3 manifastions of God" dont hold any water from the bible either.
When I said that the early christians denied trinity I was refering to "manifastion trinity" you mentioned aswell. The Jerusalem Nazarenes(also called Ebionites-"poor men"-) used to hold the belief that God was one, the Creator of all and they recognized Jesus(peace be upon him) as Christ and rejected the heretic views of Paul, calling him an apostate. As things evolved, the Pauline church and its dogma had suceeded to take the place of the Jerusalem church led by James, this partly because of the Roman devastated the city. Following this, many different groups started to arise defending the view that Christ was only a man and that God was one and only one. As things started getting warmer, the church had to start fighting these people... priests were poisened or banned for their "heretic" views.

The trinity, mary and sain worship are all innovations that contradict the pure message of Christ.

(interpretation of the meaning) :
O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three" - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One Allah. Far is it removed from His Transcendent Majesty that He should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender. Chapter; "The Women" verse 171.