Cloning issues

[Trader]

I recently started my first set of clones. They came from a very "ambitious" Northern Light mother plant.

They are mostly rocketing along...but they've produced quite a few large leaves already (near the top)...on about an average clone height of 7 to 10 inches...and they have a tendency to fall over a bit.

They've been moved from under the fluorescent to the MH w/CO2.

Are they getting too much light/heat/CO2 or is this normal for early clone life?

(They're now in 4" soil containers by way of initially starting in rockwool.)

Also, several clones made a "triangle" (3 growth shoots) and are still growing. Are they going to survive, or does this make a wierd plant? (I'll post a pic of this if you want)

And do clones eventually grow looking like a "normal" plant, or do they keep the "stick figure" look for awhile...or forever?

Thanks "bud-meisters"...

[grouchy_old_dude]

Under identical environmental conditions, they should grow identical to the Mother.

[NEMISIS]

In my experience, clones tend to grow better and faster
given an ideal situation. I found that they shoot up once
rooted and grow very rapidly as opposed to growing from
seed which is slower.

[rangerdanger]

Do you have an oscillating fan on them to increase stem strength?
How are you determining/regulating CO2 levels?

[Trader]

I have mulitple fans all over...different heights, etc...moving air constantly.

The CO2 has a controller set for 1500ppm. The Hydrofarm Deluxe Climate Controller is running the show, and I have auxiliary timers for other things.

The clones look okay. They're just a little "leggy" compared to how the mom took off. I believe it's because their root system hasn't caught up with the vegetation action.

For my next "magical trick", I need to understand when to either pull the mom or cut separate stems to cure, etc. It's only been 4 weeks in flower but the mom is really a rapid growing plant.

How much "acceleration" in flower time period should be accounted for when growing in CO2 & 90 degrees?

[Trader]

When can a clone be put into flower? Is it dependent on height or on age of (clone) plant?
The mother was a HUGE two months old donor, and some of the clones are already a foot tall.
I can't allow them to become as big as the mom...not enough space for sure...so I'd like to have more of a shorter crop.

TKS

[geckopelli]

How much "acceleration" in flower time period should be accounted for when growing in CO2 & 90 degrees?"

Mostly look for fatter buds/higher yield.

But lower the temp. High CO2 content in the air inhibits the plants ability to radiate heat.

[grouchy_old_dude]

Trader...you can flower clones anytime after they are rooted. When you put them nto flower, the will usually double at least in size. ie..if you want them to finish at around, say 36 inches, start flowering when the reach 18 inches.

[Trader]

Thanks.
I've also had some clones die...as I believe the root system wasn't "up to speed" with the foliage. I cut some broad, sun leaves in half to slow transpiration, but a few have succumbed to stress. They started under advanced fluorescents...and did darn good...but I think they needed to be set off from MH light for a bit more time.

It's my first time at this...clones and all...so it's an upward learning curve.

As to my "accelerated flower time" question, I was asking whether I'm supposed to subtract days or weeks in the cycle.
In other words, does a "regular" cycle of 6-10 weeks in flower get moved up to "5-9 weeks" or something like that?

TKS

[geckopelli]

The lenght of the flowering period is generally dependent on genetics and daylight hours. Increased CO2 simply increases one of the main limiting factor in the plant's growth.
In another words, more avalible carbon allows for the manufature of more plant material, be it leaf or flower.
So- probably not significantly.

In any case, the desired chemistry involved within the resin glands themselves is probably not affected by increased CO2 levels.

The only way I've ever found that truly shortened the flowering period (while still producing mature buds) is to decrase the daylight hours on a curve.

[Trader]

Thanks again... So I'm still looking for 6 weeks minimum I presume.

What an experiment this has been! First time at this...and I stare at the buds everyday wondering what I'm missing...or not?

I have to laugh though.... All those grow books have the most "amazing" photos of buds...but I can't imagine anything I'm growing turning out like that. I think they must use special lights and reflections. The pics remind me of stuff from the Hubble Space Telescope...Ha.

We're on week 5 now. I'll be glad to get this monster down so I have more room to walk around, etc.

Next posts will be about "harvest advice".

TKS

[rangerdanger]

Decreasing hours of light "on a curve" does nothing to hasten completion of flowering.
Gecko, please stop posting things you don't know, ok?

[rangerdanger]

Trader, here is a piece I did at another site on harvesting/drying/curing.
>There are many ways of doing this, and I've tried just about all of them. Based on my decades of experience, the experience of others and the advice of Ed Rosenthal, here's my preferred way.

First, a good cure begins with good harvesting, manicuring and drying.

-Harvesting: I prefer to cut the branches off the standing plant. It's a lot easier that way.
-Manicuring: Back at the ranch, I sit at the dining room table surrounded by 4 supermarket-type paper bags. I first cut the buds off the branches, then remove any remaining shade leaves. These leaves and bare branches go into the first bag for disposal (burning or composting).
Then I remove the medium-sized leaves. These go into another bag for cooking. The smallest leaves go into the third bag for making hash/oil.
-Drying: The buds go into the final bag. I crimp the top and place the bag in a cool dark place. Every day I gently 'comb' the buds with my fingers.
The slower the dry, the smoother and tastier the buds will be. Of course, you need to make sure (especially in humid climates) that the buds don't begin to rot. This is indicated by an ammonia odor.
-Curing: When the buds are almost but not quite dry enough to smoke (way before the 'brittle'/crispy stage), I take them out of the paper bags and place the buds in a large container. Some people use glass canning jars; I find these too expensive and too breakable. I use large 1-gallon containers I get free from the local fast-food place, the kind mustard/mayonnaise come in. I get them free (they usually throw them away). Once the containers are cleaned well, the buds are placed inside, with the top screwed on tight. Tupperware works too.
The goal in curing is to let the buds go from too moist to smoke to just right, which is as moist as a good cigar, very very slowly.
Every day I open the containers for a few minutes to let a bit of moisture out, then re-seal.
The time these processes take is dependent on the ambient humidity.
When the buds have reached perefect smoking condition (as moist as a good cigar) the cure is done. Ideally this should take about 2 weeks, at least. Then the jars are tightly sealed and left that way (until smoked), or sealed in a plastic bag with one of those seal-a-meal things (NOT the kind that suck out all the air, those will crush the buds).
Leaving a bit of moisture in the buds will preserve the pot in tip-top condition.

Curing allows the chlorophyll to break down, and also allows the non-psycho-active alkoloids to convert to psycho-active ones.

Flash-dried, uncured buds have a hay/grass-like taste and burn too hot. Slow dried buds smoke cool, smooth and improves the taste tremendously. Curing increases potency by up to 30%.

Notes: When I get the buds manicured, I place a few nugs on a table-top or in a drawer. Harsh yes but I'm usually anxious to 'test' them, and have something to smoke while I'm waiting for the drying/curing process to finish.
Also, if at any time you smell even a hint of an ammonia (dirty-diaper) odor, remove the buds IMMEDIENTLY and let air out on a table-top for half a day or so, then re-start.
It takes a bit of practice to get this just right, but once you've got it down pat, you'll never go back to flash-dried, uncured pot.<

[Trader]

Darn...that was so much info I had to print it. Ha. Thanks.

I agree with taking some stalks off a few at a time. This plant is so tall and wide...6'+ x 5' wide...that taking it out that way wouldn't work.
I was planning on harvesting the top stalk colas first and letting the "underbelly" have a bit more time with light, etc.
Hanging the individual stalks is a bit easier to handle anyway.

But I was thinking of leaving the colas on the branches, trimming the un-necessary leaves, and letting the dry/curing process occur on the branch.
Would that be cool?

Also...no problem with humidity here...high altitude... never gets above 45% in summer. In fact, I have to introduce humidity into the rooms just to keep it above 40%

Right now I'm studying the pics in grow books to figure out what the pistils are supposed to look like. Like a science class. If my teachers only saw me now. :)

Tks again...

[geckopelli]

Ranger,

once more you shoot off your mouth without experience in the matter. You've never tried it- you don't know shit about it.
Do you have even the slightest clue as to the Organic Approach?
---------------
"But I was thinking of leaving the colas on the branches, trimming the un-necessary leaves, and letting the dry/curing process occur on the branch."

Dead on a stick! Some people like it that way. More stony, they say.
But a true cure does not occur in the presence of free oxygen, so I wouldn't recomend it. But some will.

"

[Trader]

Gecko....

What's the issue of "free oxygen" re: curing on the stick?

And could the buds start drying on the sticks in the beginning anyway?

Thanks.

[geckopelli]

Drying them "on the stick" is fine.

(Meangreen is a proponet of "dead on a stick". You should ask him about it.)

And it is in the drying that the cannabinoids give-up a hydrogen atom(or perhaps it's oxygen- I don't recall for sure at the moment) and go from an acid to the much more active basic form.

Also, a fair amount of the complexed molecule chlorophyll breaks down from drying alone.

But a true cure requires the work of anareobic ("without oxygen") bacteria. To such bacteria, oxygen is pure posion.

In the everyday world, anareobic organisms exist in a static state.
But when oxygen is absent, they become dynamic, and turn into little consumers- little consumers that devour the sugars and starches contained in green leafy material.
And while the green taste comes from chlorophyll, the harshness comes from the sugars and starches.
----------
Example:
By placing buds in a jar, areobic ("with oxygen") chemical processes begin breaking down complex molecules, such as chlorophyll, until all the oxygen present has been utilized and the process screeches to a halt. That's when the anaerobics take over the job.

If left to themselves, the oxygenless little buggers will continue thier activities until the celluose itself breaksdown, leaving you with a pile of goo that has little resemblance to buds, and, worse, that ammonia-like smell that is usually associated with imported ditchweed.

So to prevent this, the jar is opened, the anareobic air exchanged for air with a normal oxygen content, and the anareobics bacteria die. Seal the jar, and the process begins anew.
--------
Traditionally, this same process is utilized by making large piles of cut plants. The stuff on the bottom and in the center of the pile cures, while the top and outer edges dry. Once a day, the pile is reshuffled.

Alternatives to all this include a flue cure and a sweat (or sun) cure. Both of these are fast, more-or-less complete cures that do not depend on a biological agent. But both also involve a noticable loss in comparative potency.
----------------
Now days, weed is rarely fully cured. It remains green with chlorophyll content, which means it's crawling with sugars and starches, as the chlorophyll is not especially stable and is easily broken down by normal physical-chemical reactions, whereas the sugars and starches are not so easily gotten rid of.

Of course, a full cure is not really nessacary. A slow, controlled drying will eliminate much of the green taste and some of the harshness, as well as adequately potentiate the cannabinoids with no potency loss.
----
I don't know if your old enough to remember gold or red weed. They were completly cured- no chlorophyll, no sugars, no starches. Just a smooth and disticntive taste. Zero harshness. Buzz aside- a pleasure to smoke.

A full cure is worth the time and effort if only from an aesthetic point of view- especially when you're smoking your own grow.

But only a partial cure is mandatory.

[rangerdanger]

CO2 augmentation only shortens the time during veg it takes for a plant to go from seedling to a certain height.
For example, it took me 21 days to go from rooted clone to 15" tall without CO2 added (but with exellent ventilation). Running 1200--1500 ppm CO2, it took me 17 days to do the same thing.
But CO2 does not shorten the time it takes for the plant to finish once a flowering cycle is induced.

Gecko, I must compliment you on your nuts n bolts knowledge of the curing process.
I discovered the benefits of curing and how to accomplish it decades ago, quite by accident. I did some reasearch on how tobacco is cured to find out more.

Since then I've fine-tuned the process, but my knowledge ended with knowing it worked and about the break-down of chlorophyll and the conversation of non-psycho-active alkaloids into active ones, pedestrian stuff compared with your in-depth chemical knowledge.
Have you ever done a sun cure?
This is how Columbian Gold and Acapulco Gold get their gold color (making for pretty buds) but I've heard the exposure to sunlight reduces potency by approx. 10%.

Thanks for info. Now I know exactly HOW curing works.

[Trader]

Ha.... If I'd paid more attention in chemistry class I'd be "right on top of this".

Awesome info gecko, I appreciate your insights and taking the time to put it down.

As the plan "unfolds" here...(this is my first attempt)...I have an un-used room; concrete walled, no windows, carpet on floor, easy to keep cool...(55 to 65 degrees)...and relative humidity is low...around 40% maybe.
I'm thinking of running strings across the ceiling and clipping branches off individually.

I forget who (on this site) explained how I could "bend the branches over"...but hat's off to them...it worked fine and some colas are still growing upwards.

Hey, other question: What is the best way to STORE buds if they have cured?

TKS

PS...Regarding my age,...ha ha...I remember when a "lid" was ten bucks...and if you'd paid $15 you must be getting "really good s--t".

[Trader]

Thanks Ranger...

I'm looking at six weeks in flower this Friday... The buds have great size and shape...but I'm still staring at book pics trying to figure out just 'what the hell I'm looking for'...ha! I have a hand-held magnifying scope (only 8X), but all I can discern is the resin, the pistils and general close-up.
I wish I had a more powerful scope so I could see these little "globy-headed trichromes" (or what-ever they're called.)

Feel free...(anyone)...to give me advice on what I'm looking for in knowing "it's time". This plant is huge...and I'd REALLY like to get this right.

TKS

[rangerdanger]

When to harvest means what kind of effect you enjoy most.
THC content reachest maximum when 70% of the bud hairs change color from clear/milky to red/brown.
That produces a heavy "couch-lock" stone most people look for to-day.
However, you can get different highs off the same plant by harvesting buds earlier.
THC is only 1 component of a marijuana high. There are many other cannibanoids in the marijuana plant.
You've been smoking for decades like me. I'm sure you've noticed how some pot makes you sleepy, some makes you horny, some gives you severe cottonmouth, some makes you laugh like a loon, etc.
This comes from the mixture of the different kinds of cannibanoids in the pot.
Strains determine some of this, but when you harvest can affect it too.
Try cutting a few buds when they are 25% color change, others at 50%, the rest at 75% (past that point the pot degrades rapidly losing it's high and tasting terrible).
Usually, the earlier harvested buds produce more of a active, head high.

Store pot in a humidor or tightly sealed in tupperware or similar container.
If you've got a lot and are storing for longer than a few months, I suggest using one of those seal-a-meal things.
Don't use the kind that suck the air out, that will crush the buds.
Keep in a cool dry place.

[grouchy_old_dude]

trader..Radio Shack has a nice little hand held microscope, 60x I think, for around $10. Perfect for judging trichome maturity.

[Trader]

Thanks guys...

I've noticed that some of the lower, spread-out branches, have changed a bit more than the ones towards the top of the plant...(still getting mega-light)...and I thought I might harvest several of those first.
Coming up on 6 weeks...oh boy...

I'll definitely check our local Radio Shack...(although sadly, it's a small one and the guy's a putz)...for the microscope.

When I see these little Trichromes...I hope they look JUST like in the picture! Wish I had a macro-lens for my digital camera. I'd love to "share the event".

:)

[geckopelli]

Ranger,

I learned practical curing in the fields of Mex and Columbia in the late '70's-'80s when I was a kid playing big-boy games.

Since that time I've become a fair amateur (with some formal trainning) underground chemist/physicist because I have this psychotic compulsion to understand the How's? so I can ask the appropriate Why's?, especially concerning our favorite type of flora.

And I LOVE that plant- so I soak-up any and all info that pertains to the subject I can find, and spend 'way to much time analysing it.

But I got to tell you- At home I never really managed to duplicate the gold look of santa marta or alcohopulco gold even when I personally carried seed home from the origin. That leaves me to suspect I was lacking something that the plant uptook from the soil.

Corroboration (maybe)- circa 1980 different seed stock was brought to a main source (rumored to be the original source) of SM gold and grown in order to expand commercial potential.
The weed cured to look the same, but lacked the power (you must've experienced that disapointment a few times back then- wgat a bummer!).

There were also low land farms putting out "gold" weed that was the result of "dead on a stick" harvesting. But the "gold" wasn't that rolex gold. More of a yellowish.
---
I generally quick-sun (although I think of it as "sweat") cure some buds at harvest for a quick taste.

One other thing- the radio Shack scopes are 30x, which is perfect for chems as well as trichomes.

[rangerdanger]

gecko, maybe sun-curing has to do with the latitudes of Mexico and Columbia.
I have experimented with sun-curing weed, with varied success. But I never got it to that stunningly beautiful sparkly Columbian that I used to buy in the mid-70's.

I too was involved with the import/export business re:marijuana, back in '67--'68.
Some friends bought a WW II-era bomber and would land in about 50 miles inside of Mex. to pick up tons of pot, then fly back low, under radar, to the desert around the Salton Sea in SoCal to unload it into trucks.
A bunch of hippie's and a Korean War pilot/beatnik. We were making so much money.
But then one trip in, co-ordinates got mixed up. The trucks went to one place, the plane landed in another.
Since taking off from the U.S. side with all that pot wasn't an option, the pot was unloaded in the desert and the plane took off.
Some off-roaders found approx. 50 tons of pot stacked up in the middle of the desert and turned it over to the cops believe it or not.
There went our $$$, paying for all that pot and never getting it. Luckily I got out of it then. Some continued on a somewhat smaller scale (twin-engine Cessna), made a lot of money and then got caught, jumped bail and were in hiding for the next decade.

[Trader]

Oh my...the stories we all could regale each other with! :) Such a life in those days.

My "calling" was a different country...farther south...and smaller product. Sadly...had MAJOR problem coming thru Mex. City Airport once. Fortunately that was in the 80's.

I can't BELIEVE the numb-nuts in the 4-wheelers turned the crap over. Geeeeez....in Florida when a bale washed up...it was "party-time" for the local area residents. One place became so famous...due to currents...that it was nicknamed: "Bale beach".

As to planes...ha. How about a Cessna 310 with (illegally) modified 421 wings? S.A. coast to Philadelphia...non-stop. Sadly that crowd met with an un-timely demise also. Made the papers big-time in the 80's.

Love the story about the bomber though...damn those were the days.

If anyone has landed in the Bahamas...you have to laugh when you see the DC-8's in the water...just sitting there right on the approach pattern...left to rot.

What a time it was.

:)

[Trader]

Radio Shack (here) doesn't have the scope. Damn. Small towns have their headaches.

Can't seem to get the heat in the rooms under control. Have plenty of ventilation...but the damn things come on SO often it's ruining my average CO2 ppm. And putting glass into the 600 & 400 in the veg room isn't doing much 'cuz the little duct fan isn't changing the air fast enough I suppose.
The CO2 generator is propane...and the ballast is hung near the roof...but the heat crawls above 87 too quickly.

Any thoughts?

[meangreen]

Air cooled hoods or a stand alone air conditioner.

[tiedye420]

Yeah I got one of those too.
It eats batteries pretty fast but other than that im happy with it...
I use the mag glass mostly- but the scope comes in handy that last week or so.. If i could ever get past cloudy with this anxiety disorder I'll be amazed....L.O.L.
Rangerdanger one note on the differences of harving early+
If you dont wait long enough for the cloudy trichs- and harv a bit clear still- the weed has a burnout couchy effect- loss of energy.. Then when it hits mostly cloudy the speed buzz comes into play..In my experience anyways.
Hell I even smoke the 2 month old male leaf when testing for breeder males..
I usually smoke it at every stage the first couple runs through my grow- so I know the plant (strain) better....
trader..Radio Shack has a nice little hand held microscope, 60x I think, for around $10. Perfect for judging trichome maturity.

[Trader]

MeanG...I think I'll go the way of the air-cooled hoods. Don't need yet another drain of electicity...and it's only hot in the summer here. Winter = Good heat!

Got the Radio Shack magnifier today. Damn hard to get the little leaf into a position so you can see the trichromes from the side..rather than overhead.

Friday represents 6 wk. / flower. The trichromes are visible...more clear than not...and the pistils seem in the range of 60% browning, yet the plant in general seems ready to be harvested.
The large fan leaves have been withering and falling off for several weeks...yet plant looks healthy in general.

First time at this...and don't want my best effort to be thwarted.

[meangreen]

For future reference a Sunpenton WA-1010 10,000 btu standalone a/c only uses 6.2 amp(.5 amps more then a 600hps) of power and will maintain a average room temps very efficiently and they only run about $350-400.