What god isn't.

[geckopelli]

Animal, vegtable, or mineral, to begin with.

[rain_in_summer]

An old man, sitting on a cloud, loving all his little sheep (humans), except for the homosexuals, the women, the ones losing their virginity before marriage, the ones not going to church regularily, the ones not praying to him like mad, the ones not looking at their religion as something superior and ultimatively true, the ones not listening to the old man in Rome stating he's the direct connection to God and so on ...

[Razorofoccam]

An old man, sitting on a cloud, loving all his little sheep (humans), except for the homosexuals, the women, the ones losing their virginity before marriage, the ones not going to church regularily, the ones not praying to him like mad, the ones not looking at their religion as something superior and ultimatively true, the ones not listening to the old man in Rome stating he's the direct connection to God and so on ...
Rain

Well said.

Occam

PS. Occam understands this perspective well. Perhaps comming from he same place in thought/feeling.
Why is it. When he is told that homosexuals are evil.
That good people who are not of god..are evil.
that not worshiping that which cannot be percieved or proved existent.
Is evil.
He gets angry? Not an anger at any individual. But a 'general' anger at US.

[POPthree13]

God isn't a concerned father or an ultimate creator.

It doesn't play favorites or support subversive conversion.

It isn't the ultimate 'Right' standing opposed to the ulitmate 'Wrong'.
Good and Evil are our inventions - a horrible way of describing the beautiful balance in the duality of reality.

[Razorofoccam]

God isn't a concerned father or an ultimate creator.

It doesn't play favorites or support subversive conversion.

It isn't the ultimate 'Right' standing opposed to the ulitmate 'Wrong'.
Good and Evil are our inventions - a horrible way of describing the beautiful balance in the duality of reality.
POPthree13

Well Said.

Occam

[geckopelli]

Ditto.

>>>>>>>>>>>>

[Defence_mechanism]

What god isn't.
an entity outside one's mind, the keeper of the answer to life, a man, the author of the bible, real....

Good and Evil are our inventions - a horrible way of describing the beautiful balance in the duality of reality. true. very very true.

[nephthys]

"an entity outside one's mind, the keeper of the answer to life, a man, the author of the bible, real...."

Interestingly you are willing to accept that God might an entity within one's mind and yet you say its unreal? Are thoughts unreal? Are emotions unreal?

[weaselpop]

some very true things are being said here.

[veinglory]

As far as I can see God just *isn't* -- period.

[Kharakov]

As far as I can see God just *isn't* -- period.
So when i masturbate and think about god i am doing it in vein?

[meishka]

god isn't my dog. cause i don't have a dog. oh get it dog, god. freaky

[Kharakov]

god isn't my dog. cause i don't have a dog. oh get it dog, god. freaky
God is such a freak for coming up with bestiality. You know the only reason God does crazy stuff like that (and wars) is so we think God is cool. G's got my vote for coolness.

[geckopelli]

God is such a freak for coming up with bestiality. You know the only reason God does crazy stuff like that (and wars) is so we think God is cool. G's got my vote for coolness.
Take it to the christian forum, if you're looking to agitate, child.

We don't care about your sexual preferences.

[Razorofoccam]

god isn't my dog. cause i don't have a dog. oh get it dog, god. freaky

i'm a lesbain trapped in a man's body. i ate the penguin

Meishka

Occam is a rational being trapped in a human body.
He ate an apple.
[or so the myth goes]

Occam

[meishka]

i agree, myth. that is wat religon is. but the cristians take it too far. wen i think of america and the exucutions done in the name of god. i like the eastern religions like buddism as they seem more peaceful. but remermber grade school? i'm sure we all did a project on the greeks. why doesn't anyone follow the word of zeus? like he disappeared. wat the cathlolics and christians haven't realised is "god" is the same a zeus and he could be gone tommorow because he doesn't exist

[Varuna]

All I can say is this, in every age, in every culture, in every part of the world, whenever anyone has transcended their biological, cultural, intellectual and religious preconceptions in order to have the mystic experience of seeing reality as it actually is, every one of them has described the same experience.

Surely this is, at the very least, a statistically improbable phenomenon that is worthy of attention.

Some of these Mystics (Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed and Lao Tsu, just to name a few) started religions that have thrived for hundreds or even thousands of years. Others, like Rumi, Valmiki, Hillel, J. Krishnamurti, Thomas Acquinas, Bodhidharma, Basho, Al-Hallaj, Meister Eckhart, and yes, even Bob Marley, brought considerable vitality to their traditions and inspiration to those to whom they communicated their "Vision."

Just a thought.

[Defence_mechanism]

Interestingly you are willing to accept that God might an entity within one's mind and yet you say its unreal? Are thoughts unreal? Are emotions unreal?
no, emotions and thoughts are very real.
what i meant was... people who ask questions of life and get answers, or believe that when they pray they are listened to, or that miracles happen because of a spiritual entity... really are a bit off the track. its all coming from within themselves.

yes, thoughts are real. but i believe that these people are mistaking their own powers of healing and spiritual enlightenment for someone/something that is outside of them.

[Vae Victus]

You know what? Every single thing everyone has listed also applies to rocks... and the color blue... and most of the other concepts in the universe. Defining what something is not is an exercise in futility.

[Razorofoccam]

All I can say is this, in every age, in every culture, in every part of the world, whenever anyone has transcended their biological, cultural, intellectual and religious preconceptions in order to have the mystic experience of seeing reality as it actually is, every one of them has described the same experience.

Surely this is, at the very least, a statistically improbable phenomenon that is worthy of attention.

Some of these Mystics (Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed and Lao Tsu, just to name a few) started religions that have thrived for hundreds or even thousands of years. Others, like Rumi, Valmiki, Hillel, J. Krishnamurti, Thomas Acquinas, Bodhidharma, Basho, Al-Hallaj, Meister Eckhart, and yes, even Bob Marley, brought considerable vitality to their traditions and inspiration to those to whom they communicated their "Vision."

Just a thought.
Varuna

Good point..
And what did they see?

Occam suggests they saw a god that was reason/love/logic/compassion.

Everything we have in our hands.
All we need do is live by them.

To weild ourselves as beings in ballance. Where Heart and Mind are in unity.
Maybe those great humans simply saw. What we can be.

Occam

[Razorofoccam]

Micheal


Devil?

What is that?

Occam

[geckopelli]

You know what? Every single thing everyone has listed also applies to rocks... and the color blue... and most of the other concepts in the universe. Defining what something is not is an exercise in futility.
Your facts are uncoordinated.

Rocks are "mineral". As for "blue"- I will add that god is not photons of that particular wave lenght.

Besides, no one can define thier god without a bunch of assumptions (like "good" and "love" and "intelligence") be taken for granted.

What god ISN'T, is the only possible approach.

[Vae Victus]

That's pure nonsense. There is, literally, an infinite number of things God is not, and rocks are not, and blue is not. It cannot be held by any thinking person that defining what a concept is not helps describe the concept in any meaningful way.

If all the theists here are just going on a tangent about how they personally believe God doesn't have X attribute when person Y said God does, that's perfectly fine. But I see no reason to pretend this is some sort of candle in the dark.

[geckopelli]

Vae Victus,
You would appear to be the main theist present.

"infinite" is a mathematical artifact with no real world application.

Tell us what your god IS- if you can.

[Defence_mechanism]

All I can say is this, in every age, in every culture, in every part of the world, whenever anyone has transcended their biological, cultural, intellectual and religious preconceptions in order to have the mystic experience of seeing reality as it actually is, every one of them has described the same experience.

Surely this is, at the very least, a statistically improbable phenomenon that is worthy of attention.
what do u mean by this? every culture in history has some sort of god? i dont see this as a statistically improbable phenomenon. surely it is biological or evolutionary.

at some point in our evolutionary line it was (and i suppose still is to an extent, but to a much lesser value) appropriate for our limited minds to believe that the things around us were created by an entity of greater power.

but as we learn more about the environment that surrounds us, we find that nothing is created out of nothing. everything has a catalyst. thus a less valid reason for believing in a god.

as for discussing what god is not... it's just a discussion on a forum for atheists. we enjoy talking about what it is not, because more often than not we find ourselves in arguments about what it is... and it gets overly monotonous. :)

[Vae Victus]

Vae Victus,
You would appear to be the main theist present.

"infinite" is a mathematical artifact with no real world application.

Tell us what your god IS- if you can.
Oooh, I'm so burned!

Are you actually claiming you don't understand the concept of infinity? And I don't need a definition of god--I'm not claiming one exists.

[POPthree13]

If you wish to see it that way... ALL of life is an exercize in futility. I was under the impression that this was a just a fun forum that has turned into a highlight of many misconceptions about God - were one to exist.
Infinite is easy to define, but then again so it God... if you want to be simplistic.

[Varuna]

Varuna

Good point..
And what did they see?

Occam suggests they saw a god that was reason/love/logic/compassion.

Everything we have in our hands.
All we need do is live by them.

To weild ourselves as beings in ballance. Where Heart and Mind are in unity.
Maybe those great humans simply saw. What we can be.

Occam
MMmm, that is some good stuff.

And Yes, you know it, of course, but there is more. There are qualities and patterns of reality for which we have no words, not yet anyway. There is an undefinable quality to all of this that doesn't sit still to be contained in words. To try to do so is noble, but as difficult as trying to thread a needle while wearing boxing gloves.

It is simple but it can only be experienced and communicated directly. I think, in part, it has something to do with the nature of the relationships between everyone (and everyone else) and everything (and everything else).

It is similar to trying to describe the Pacific Ocean. To the person you were describing it to, any words you use would only give an idea of its vast, mysterious, reality. You could draw a bucket of it, but then, even though you would have a gallon of sea-water (physically identical to the stuff that makes up the Ocean), you would not have The Pacific Ocean. You could even take someone to see it for themselves, but as anyone who lives near the Pacific (or any ocean) knows, there is a lot more to it than what you see from the shore.

But you know what the Pacific Ocean is. Simple isn't it?

[geckopelli]

Vae Victus,

Burned?

Like "god", "infinity is a "concept" with no real world examples- you can't point to it.
Entropy doesn't allow it- so don't waste your time on the "transversing a finite path an infinlte number of times" arguement- in other words, circles.
And don't say space is infinite. That's merely a reflection of finite understanding.

An unsubstantiated concept is an unsubstatiated concept- "god" or "infinite".

[nephthys]

"And I don't need a definition of god--I'm not claiming one exists."

So you can know that you don't believe in god, without actually knowing what god means (that knowledge is given to you by a definition of "god")?

[geckopelli]

"And I don't need a definition of god--I'm not claiming one exists."

So you can know that you don't believe in god, without actually knowing what god means (that knowledge is given to you by a definition of "god")?
Well said!

[Vae Victus]

So you can know that you don't believe in god, without actually knowing what god means (that knowledge is given to you by a definition of "god")?
Absolutely. I see no reason to pander to each and every theist. As soon as someone comes up with some notion that can be studied, proven, disproven or supported in any way, I will hear them out with both ears. What I will not do is fake my way through every discussion about people's "feelings" and "faith." I don't need to delve into every theists' mindset on this planet to decide whether I believe in a "higher power" or not.


Like "god", "infinity is a "concept" with no real world examples- you can't point to it.
Entropy doesn't allow it- so don't waste your time on the "transversing a finite path an infinlte number of times" arguement- in other words, circles.
And don't say space is infinite. That's merely a reflection of finite understanding.

An unsubstantiated concept is an unsubstatiated concept- "god" or "infinite".
Either you're missing my point altogether, or you're very intellectually dishonest. I will rephrase for the sake of discussion: There are literallly, trillions etc...

[Razorofoccam]

MMmm, that is some good stuff.

And Yes, you know it, of course, but there is more. There are qualities and patterns of reality for which we have no words, not yet anyway. There is an undefinable quality to all of this that doesn't sit still to be contained in words. To try to do so is noble, but as difficult as trying to thread a needle while wearing boxing gloves.

It is simple but it can only be experienced and communicated directly. I think, in part, it has something to do with the nature of the relationships between everyone (and everyone else) and everything (and everything else).

It is similar to trying to describe the Pacific Ocean. To the person you were describing it to, any words you use would only give an idea of its vast, mysterious, reality. You could draw a bucket of it, but then, even though you would have a gallon of sea-water (physically identical to the stuff that makes up the Ocean), you would not have The Pacific Ocean. You could even take someone to see it for themselves, but as anyone who lives near the Pacific (or any ocean) knows, there is a lot more to it than what you see from the shore.

But you know what the Pacific Ocean is. Simple isn't it?
Varuna

Occam agrees.

The 'pacific ocean' is a name for a concept.
It has at least a set of human parameters.
[it ends at sea level , the sea floor. the african, s/amercan capes & other
'borders'.]
But it incorporates all within it that is not ocean. Just as 'earth' incorporates US.

And occam sees your point. "There are qualities and patterns of reality for which we have no words, not yet anyway. There is an undefinable quality to all of this that doesn't sit still to be contained in words."

Occam might call this a 'synergy of systems.'
The whole is greater than the sum of the parts.
Occam believes that such synergy is all pervasive in reality when dealing with
LIFE.
Raw energy/mater can be reduced to basics and rebuilt...[deconstructed/re]
But when dealing with life systems...
A synergy cannot be reduced.
A perfect example is the operant human MIND.

MIND is in occams opinion. A synergistic product of the function of the
miriad subsystems/relationships of or brains.
There is no part of our brain where imagination lives...
it is a synergy of a thousand different hard/soft systems.

A supersystem as you will.
The biospere of earth is a supersystem.
The pacific ocean is a supersystem
Reality, is a supersystem.

We must accept that much of reality will always be a mystery to us.
That much is, that we cannot explain...

What a wonderfull purpose for us..
To understand as much as we can..
Individually and for our race.

Occam

PS
a bit off imagineering...

Occam thinks we as a species understand maybe one percent of
the workings of the systems of reality. We are babes in the woods.

And a god. Is such simply because it understands 40%

[geckopelli]

Vae Victus,
You're hidding from the issue.

There are no real world examples of infinity.

You are professing to an understanding you do not have of a concept that is purely mathematical- more rigid, but no more observable (even theoretically) that "god".

Otherwise, Provide an example that does not ignore thermodynamics.

Philosophical arguments that conflict with reality are of no account.

[Kharakov]

Otherwise, Provide an example that does not ignore thermodynamics.

Philosophical arguments that conflict with reality are of no account.This does not conflict with reality, and does not ignore thermodynamics. Here is the scenario- a universe that naturally would run out of energy, disperse, die. God adds energy to it at the right places to keep it going forever. You think God ignores thermodynamics? Might ignore someone who worries about them though :p. I call the universe thermodynamics with a side of fries from the Big Maccer... (Mean that in the maker mac-daddy way).

[geckopelli]

One problem:

There is no verifiable example of energy spontaneously coming into creation from nothing.

Much simpler to suppose such a god would allow/require the Universe to run down in it's time and then start over. Or run out in one place and "leak" into another- such as into a blackhole and out a whitehole and into the big bang, thus closing the universe- or confining god's toy, if you will.

[Nathan11]

Vae Victus,
You're hidding from the issue.

There are no real world examples of infinity.

You are professing to an understanding you do not have of a concept that is purely mathematical- more rigid, but no more observable (even theoretically) that "god".

Otherwise, Provide an example that does not ignore thermodynamics.

Philosophical arguments that conflict with reality are of no account.
I'm not sure I agree. What about Pi and Phi? Are they not infinant?
But, you were right saying that the only logical way of describing 'God' is describing what 's/he' isn't. I mean, you cannot define God, right? Then let's say what he isn't.

[POPthree13]

Pi is infinite. That's why you can never claim to have defined it. It is known to be mathmatically undefinable. Sure you can call it infinite, but infinite, by definition is undefinable.

Life seems to ignore basic thermodynamics. At least when you consider the fact that you are not a new organism. When you imagine that you are just a piece that has been passed on and on for 3 billion years only growing more diverse and complex it seems to contradict basic thermodynamics. I haven't really run into anyone who tries to apply thermodynamics to life systems.

[geckopelli]

Pi is an inadequate mathematical construct. The answer is infinite and gives only an "estimate"- never a truly accurate answer.

Without people, there is no math- there was no Pi. Humans brought the concept of "infinity" into existence.

Infinity is a mathematical construct. Ther are no real world examples.
---
Life systems (like thought) only apper to defy thermodynamics.
Ever more energy is poured into the system on a continuing basis.

Conception- when a life "quanta" is achieved- is arguably a moment of isolated "reverse entropy". But it's far from a conclusive argument.
If indeed at that moment more energy emitts from the system than is absobed, this may indicate a god-force at work, although I'll stick with Uncertainty for now.

[Vae Victus]

Vae Victus,
You're hidding from the issue.
You've yet to respond to anything I've said except the word "infinity."

There are no real world examples of infinity.
Assumption.

You are professing to an understanding you do not have
Ad hominem attack.

of a concept that is purely mathematical-
Assumption.

more rigid, but no more observable (even theoretically) that "god".
Working within self-created definitions.

Otherwise, Provide an example that does not ignore thermodynamics.
Now I'm just confused.

Philosophical arguments that conflict with reality are of no account.
What a coincidence. I was just about to say the same thing to you. You still aren't even talking about the topic. You're just having a rant about your assumptions regarding the word "infinity," and if it "exists" or not. Who cares? Respond to my posts--- don't pick out a single word, muse over the semantics of it, and pretend you've discovered some fatal flaw in my idea. I'll say it again (though I doubt it will do any good): For the sake of discussion, replace the word "infinity" in my post with "trillions."

[geckopelli]

VV,
There is no infinity.
State an example or conceed.

I'm not here to teach elementry physics. your own your own learning thermodynamics.

suffice it to say Entropy precludes infinity. this is clearly beyond your level of understanding. To state a fact is not an attack of any kind.

I have no definition of "god".

You insinuate you do and you say you don't. Which is it?

So far, you've made fanciful but NOT factual statements.

I'll not debate your mystiscism. You can believe in the infinite if you choose- but it's just a belief, with no basis in reality.

[geckopelli]

Incidently, I started this thread.

It's you who have failed to respond to the topic.

[Vae Victus]

VV,
There is no infinity.
State an example or conceed.

I'm not here to teach elementry physics. your own your own learning thermodynamics.

suffice it to say Entropy precludes infinity. this is clearly beyond your level of understanding. To state a fact is not an attack of any kind.

I have no definition of "god".

You insinuate you do and you say you don't. Which is it?

So far, you've made fanciful but NOT factual statements.

I'll not debate your mystiscism. You can believe in the infinite if you choose- but it's just a belief, with no basis in reality.
What a shocker. You ignored my post and began ranting about infinity again. No really, I couldn't be more surprised. Also, since all you had to say about the relationship between entropy and infinity was, "I'm so smart you could never hope to understand me," I'll just go ahead and assume that you don't know what entropy is, and instead you're just parroting someone else who did. Here's a link to help explain it:

http://www.secondlaw.com/ten.html

By the way, infinity is not all-loving. Infinity does not have emotions the same way we do. There. Now how anyone cannot understand what infinity is after those breath-taking epiphanies is beyond me! I think we've really made progress today!

[geckopelli]

Your ranting foucuses on your ignorance.

I don't need links.

You've said nothing of substance.

And so it stands that there are NOT an infinte number of things that god isn't.

So back to topic:

god isn't Vae Victus' unsubstantiated ravings.

[Razorofoccam]

Infinity is a mathematical construct. Ther are no real world examples.
.
Gecko

Truth.
And there can be none.
For infinity has no end..
And a thing with no end.
Cannot be defined by that which is not infinite.

"Without people, there is no math"

Exactly.
Without humans there is no human math..
Human math is a human language to define reality.
Without humans , it does not exist.

Occam

Many say.."math" is universal.
False.
Math is our desctiption of the workings of the universe.
The universe is universal
Math describes it for US alone.
And who can show that the universe we observe is ALL there is?
NONE.

It may be just a facet of a titanic multiverse..
Most of which human math does not apply to.

Math is dependent of objective laws.
If they change.
Human math is only applicable to 'our obsevable facet'

No-one can say if the objective laws are consistent throughout totallity.

[Kharakov]

One problem:

There is no verifiable example of energy spontaneously coming into creation from nothing. God isn't nothing.
Much simpler to suppose such a god would allow/require the Universe to run down in it's time and then start over. Or run out in one place and "leak" into another- such as into a blackhole and out a whitehole and into the big bang, thus closing the universe- or confining god's toy, if you will.
I don't masturbate in public because I don't think people would enjoy it too much (yet). Maybe God does not do stuff around people who doubt Gods existence, because God knows that those people are not ready to acknowledge their God. Somes got their cherry popped, somes don't... there is lots of foreplay howeva...

[geckopelli]

An assumption and a maybe.

And maybe god is the easter bunny and he really wants us to eat colored eggs.

I'm not prepared to say that god is and assumption and a maybe- or vice-versa.

[Kharakov]

An assumption and a maybe.

I'm not prepared to say that god is and assumption and a maybe- or vice-versa.
What exactly are you prepared to say?

[geckopelli]

There is room in Reality for a possible "god" of some kind that could be omnipotent, omnipresent, and in a "place" that can be labeled- anything you want. Heaven. Cucamonga. Whatever.
But that's all I've got so far.
All the evidence for seems to be subjective. Can't find one tangible thing-
except for the Rules of Reality- and ascribing them to intelligence is just too subjective a decsion at this point.

[Kharakov]

There is room in Reality for a possible "god" of some kind that could be omnipotent, omnipresent, and in a "place" that can be labeled- anything you want. Heaven. Cucamonga. Whatever.
But that's all I've got so far.
All the evidence for seems to be subjective. Can't find one tangible thing-
except for the Rules of Reality- and ascribing them to intelligence is just too subjective a decsion at this point.
You are either going to have to look for evidence of God with an open mind (stop chalking stuff up to coincidence) or wait until something happens in your life that is significant enough to make you realize there is a God (take a trip to hell for 20 minutes or so).

Kharakov

[geckopelli]

I am open minded.

Occam's razor.

open your mind to reality.

If a near death experience and 4 heart attacks with 3 episode of kidney failure not to mention numerous life and death situations haven't convinced me to lose my objectivity, than I doubt your child's story of hell will.

[Kharakov]

If a near death experience and 4 heart attacks with 3 episode of kidney failure not to mention numerous life and death situations haven't convinced me to lose my objectivity, Yup, you are definately a sloooooowwwwww learner. How do I trigger another heart attack... hmmm... :p
than I doubt your child's story of hell will.It isn't the story about hell that changes people, it is actually spending time in hell that changes people. You won't know until you try it....

[geckopelli]

Kar,
You're a robot, unable to use the gifts god gave you- all you do is spout programing. I pity you. you contibute nothing to the conversation but juicy bullshit. You're a fool in your beliefs, so you're dismissed from consideration.
Go to the christain forum with you faith and leave us intellectual thinkers alone with our Knowledge.

[Kharakov]

Kar,
You're a robot, unable to use the gifts god gave you- all you do is spout programing. I pity you. you contibute nothing to the conversation but juicy bullshit.Awesome, I just heard a kickass thunderclap from outside my open window. Yes, you are right about a few things, I only recombine ideas that have come to me from the outside and put them forth. Hmm... you don't? Glad to meet (another thunderclap) someone who's ideas are entirely original and do not come from an outside source. Must be a solipsist. I, however, am a robot using the gifts God gave me in the way they are intended to be used, driving annoying nuisances like you on to your 5th heart attack http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/tongue.gif.


You're a fool in your beliefs, so you're dismissed from consideration.
Go to the christain forum with you faith and leave us intellectual thinkers alone with our Knowledge.You fool, you don't know me, my beliefs or the reason I believe them, however, having worn the atheistic and agnostic shoes for years I am all too familiar with both sides of the case. However, how about the theist who poses as an atheist just to prank other theists.... damn rapper.

[geckopelli]

You're the fool whose a solipist.

I deal in reality- you think your opinion is reality.

God is none of the fantasies you sprout. your a self-rigtheous fool- go to the christian forum.

[Razorofoccam]

However, how about the theist who poses as an atheist just to prank other theists.... .
How about agnostics who pose as agnostics.?
Or are they just thiests pranking other theists?

Occam

[Kharakov]

How about agnostics who pose as agnostics.?
Or are they just thiests pranking other theists?

OccamI can't figure that one out, but it made me smile. Thanx. I never know if someone is serious about stuff or not, sometimes I feel like God is joking with me, and sometimes I feel like I am being used as a tool to further someones spiritual progress. Tool time....

[Kharakov]

You're the fool whose a solipist.Right.... as usual I bow before your knowledge of my thought processes. You do know what a solipsist is, don't you? You don't think there is an implication of solipsism in anyone denying the fact that the ideas they have come from an external source?
I deal in reality- you think your opinion is reality.That is your opinion. I prefer to think of reality as something that is beyond simple worldly opinions, although in my opinion based upon faith in God, its all good (I think I got a thumbs up on that one from God at some point in time). It's even good to deal with someone who plays the fool as well as you. Notice I have not judged you to be a fool- I have just stated that you are pretending to be a fool because it is the right thing for you to do at this moment. I do not judge your actions as wrong because I am not pretending to be a fool at this moment in time. I could not possibly know whether or not you are serious about anything you are saying- however, If you are truly serious, you are truly a fool.

God is none of the fantasies you sprout. your a self-rigtheous fool- go to the christian forum.God is not a fantasy, God is a truly amazing, all powerful, loving being. YOu are just pretending to be an idiot aren't you? I am curious as to your true feelings about me.

[Razorofoccam]

I can't figure that one out, but it made me smile. Thanx. I never know if someone is serious about stuff or not, sometimes I feel like God is joking with me, and sometimes I feel like I am being used as a tool to further someones spiritual progress. Tool time....
Kharkov

Occam thought that all you wanted was for god to suck your dick.
But maybe, you had it backwards, in which case you ARE being used as a tool.

Occam

[LuciferSam]

Here is how I see faith...

Faith is the firm belief in something for which there is no concrete proof, right? So once you're willing to go through that door of faith, of accepting doctrine and myth based on a sheer will to believe in it, isn't anything suddenly possible? Anything, really. Based on faith alone, a theory that the universe was sneezed into existence by a giant, omnipotent wallaby can be just as credible as any of the creation myths presented by any religion. So thus, how can you be sure that your particular faith is more valid than others, since anything is possible with faith?

That's one of my reasons for being agnostic-humanist (from being a former atheist, actually). I choose to sit content on the fence because I see no ground to set foot on should I jump off it.

[POPthree13]

Don't jump off the fence!

You'll just be fenced in with the flock like a sheep going where it is lead.
I like it on the fence. The views better up here.

[Razorofoccam]

Here is how I see faith...

Faith is the firm belief in something for which there is no concrete proof, right? So once you're willing to go through that door of faith, of accepting doctrine and myth based on a sheer will to believe in it, isn't anything suddenly possible? Anything, really. Based on faith alone, a theory that the universe was sneezed into existence by a giant, omnipotent wallaby can be just as credible as any of the creation myths presented by any religion. So thus, how can you be sure that your particular faith is more valid than others, since anything is possible with faith?

That's one of my reasons for being agnostic-humanist (from being a former atheist, actually). I choose to sit content on the fence because I see no ground to set foot on should I jump off it.
Lucifer

Sounds good to me.
Faith is what you want it to be.
What has that to do with reality.?
Human subjective position requires no link with reality.
It is a self supporting position.

Occam