Are you sure?

[ryupower]

Muslims, I've got a question:

Who here is secure that he's going to Paradise?

[cabdirazzaq]

Muslims, I've got a question:

Who here is secure that he's going to Paradise?
There is something interesting with this religion compared to others, you find many religions and sects promising you paradise if you join their group/church or beleifs. We on the other hand, can never ever promise a certain individual paradise. If we did that, it would mean that we are thinking that we can control the will of Allah(may he be exalted) or knowing it and who knows that except the Lord Himself?

How can we claim we know that someone amongst us is going to paradise dependless of this persons deeds, we cannot read hearts or minds of people and thus cannot give such a verdict. All we can do is have trust in Allah(may he be exalted) and do as he commanded and seek his forgiveness, for most surely, the kind of people who do this are promised paradise.

[ryupower]

There is something interesting with this religion compared to others, you find many religions and sects promising you paradise if you join their group/church or beleifs. We on the other hand, can never ever promise a certain individual paradise. If we did that, it would mean that we are thinking that we can control the will of Allah(may he be exalted) or knowing it and who knows that except the Lord Himself?

How can we claim we know that someone amongst us is going to paradise dependless of this persons deeds, we cannot read hearts or minds of people and thus cannot give such a verdict. All we can do is have trust in Allah(may he be exalted) and do as he commanded and seek his forgiveness, for most surely, the kind of people who do this are promised paradise. So in Islam Allah sends you to hell?

[cabdirazzaq]

So in Islam Allah sends you to hell?Could do that, yes, there will be muslims, jews and christians in hell just as you will find muslims, christians and jews in paradise as well.

[ryupower]

Could do that, yes, there will be muslims, jews and christians in hell just as you will find muslims, christians and jews in paradise as well.
So it seems that in Islam one may make his way through their own works, right?

[cabdirazzaq]

Well these are your merits but in the end it all goes down to the Mercy of Allah(may he be exalted), thus no one -not even the prophets- enter paradise with their deeds but through the mercy of their Lord.

[ryupower]

Well these are your merits but in the end it all goes down to the Mercy of Allah(may he be exalted), thus no one -not even the prophets- enter paradise with their deeds but through the mercy of their Lord. Do you do blood-sacrifices to pay for your wrongdoing?

[cabdirazzaq]

How do you mean?

[ryupower]

How do you mean? Well, you do know that without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness...am I not right?

[cabdirazzaq]

Well, you do know that without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness...am I not right? So, do you do blood sacrifices to pay for your sins?
Well we believe one gets forgived through repentence, Ive never heard about blood sacrifices though.

Say: "O My servants who have transgressed against themselves! Despair not of the mercy of Allah, verily, Allah forgives all sins. Truly, He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.[Quran]

[ryupower]

Well we believe one gets forgived through repentence, Ive never heard about blood sacrifices though.

Say: "O My servants who have transgressed against themselves! Despair not of the mercy of Allah, verily, Allah forgives all sins. Truly, He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.[Quran] That means that you're contradicting the laws Allah gave to Moses...how come?

[cabdirazzaq]

That means that you're contradicting the Old Testament Laws G-d gave to Moses...I believe the torah was sent down, the gospel as well and the scriptures of David and Abraham(peace be upon them) but I do not follow these laws since the different laws replaced or altered each other...

But I think I know were your heading, tell me about the sacrifice of Christ, why would Allah(may he be exalted) sacrifice such a righteous man?

[Burbot]

i think i may be able to answer this with my still limited knowlege...

one pure, sinless blood can wash away the sins of mankind, and because Jesus was the sinless being sent from God, His blood washed away mankinds sins...

[if im wrong, please correct me claudia

[ryupower]

I believe the torah was sent
down, the gospel as well and the scriptures of David and Abraham(peace be upon them) but I do not follow these laws since the different laws replaced or altered each other...

But I think I know were your heading, tell me about the sacrifice of Christ, why would Allah(may he be exalted) sacrifice such a righteous man? To pay for our sins. Only innocent blood can wash away sinful blood. Leviticus 3-6 is all about blood sacrfices of animals, because animals are innocent.

Since animal blood could only COVER sinful blood, rather than wash it away, a completely innocent man had to be sacrificed (Jesus).

Even the OT talks about how the Messiah will pay for all sins of the Earth, it was prophecied that he'd take all sin apon himself ( I could post that prophecy, if you want)

That, and to show that he loves us:

John 3:14-18

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

It goes on:

19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
NKJV

Jesus said this.You've got the Gosspel of John, right?





OK, now where was the blood sacrifice law changed in the Koran?
Curious to know ;) ( I know quite a few passages in the Koran, but not that one...)


EDIT: OK, to make it short, look at Burbot's answer. ;)

[Burbot]

yeah, what she said :rolleyes:

[cabdirazzaq]

To pay for our sins. Only innocent blood can wash away sinful blood. Leviticus 3-6 is all about blood sacrfices of animals, because animals are innocent.

Since animal blood could only COVER sinful blood, rather than wash it away, a completely innocent man had to be sacrificed (Jesus).

Even the OT talks about how the Messiah will pay for all sins of the Earth, it was prophecied that he'd take all sin apon himself ( I could post that prophecy, if you want)

That, and to show that he loves us:

John 3:14-18

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

It goes on:

19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
NKJV

Jesus said this.You've got the Gosspel of John, right?





OK, now where was the blood sacrifice law changed in the Koran?
Curious to know ;) ( I know quite a few verses in the Koran, but not this one...)


EDIT: OK, to make it short, look at Burbot's answer. ;)

So wait now for a sec and let me see if I get this right. Allah(may he be exalted) sended him self to make a woman pregnant whom later conceived him self who then started preaching to the people to worship "the other him self" but when the people denied the human him the other him self self had to sacrifice him self so we could be forigiven. Correct? : )

Doesnt the bible say that no burdener of burden shall bear anothers burden(atleast I think Ive read that somewhere in the bible?), why would this man be killed for out stupidity? Is it fair to beat the crap out of a small innocent child because the other ones are behaving improperly?

And it appears that he was praying and fighting so as not to become killed, then how can this be salvation?

[ryupower]

So wait now for a sec and let me see if I get this right. Allah(may he be exalted) sended him self to make a woman pregnant whom later conceived him self who then started preaching to the people to worship "the other him self" but when the people denied the human him the other him self self had to sacrifice him self so we could be forigiven. Correct? : ) Correct! ;)

Doesnt the bible say that no burdener of burden shall bear anothers burden(atleast I think Ive read that somewhere in the bible?), why would this man be killed for out stupidity? Is it fair to beat the crap out of a small innocent child because the other ones are behaving improperly?

And it appears that he was praying and fighting so as not to become killed, then how can this be salvation?
Well, it's actually quite the opposite,the Bible says that one SHOULD take another's Burden.
Re-read that scripture, That answers the question of WHY he killed him for our stupidity.
He also died for us so that all the Messiah prophecies may be fulfilled, including this one:

Isa 53

Who has believed our message? To whom will the LORD reveal his saving power? 2 My servant grew up in the LORD's presence like a tender green shoot, sprouting from a root in dry and sterile ground. There was nothing beautiful or majestic about his appearance, nothing to attract us to him. 3 He was despised and rejected — a man of sorrows, acquainted with bitterest grief. We turned our backs on him and looked the other way when he went by. He was despised, and we did not care.

4 Yet it was our weaknesses he carried; it was our sorrows that weighed him down. And we thought his troubles were a punishment from God for his own sins! 5 But he was wounded and crushed for our sins. He was beaten that we might have peace. He was whipped, and we were healed! 6 All of us have strayed away like sheep. We have left God's paths to follow our own. Yet the LORD laid on him the guilt and sins of us all.

7 He was oppressed and treated harshly, yet he never said a word. He was led as a lamb to the slaughter. And as a sheep is silent before the shearers, he did not open his mouth. 8 From prison and trial they led him away to his death. But who among the people realized that he was dying for their sins — that he was suffering their punishment? 9 He had done no wrong, and he never deceived anyone. But he was buried like a criminal; he was put in a rich man's grave.

10 But it was the LORD's good plan to crush him and fill him with grief. Yet when his life is made an offering for sin, he will have a multitude of children, many heirs. He will enjoy a long life, and the LORD's plan will prosper in his hands. 11 When he sees all that is accomplished by his anguish, he will be satisfied. And because of what he has experienced, my righteous servant will make it possible for many to be counted righteous, for he will bear all their sins. 12 I will give him the honors of one who is mighty and great, because he exposed himself to death. He was counted among those who were sinners. He bore the sins of many and interceded for sinners.
NLT

Who else could this have been but Jesus?
The Koran says that Jesus didn't die, but Judas for him, which already Makes BOTH the Gosspels,and the Torah wrong ( Eventhough you still believe in the creation story of Genesis, which you try to defend.)

And you're right, Jesus didn't want to die. However, he didn't fight either, instead he submitted to the Lord the Father, for His will would be done:

Matt 26:38-46

8 He told them, "My soul is crushed with grief to the point of death. Stay here and watch with me."

39 He went on a little farther and fell face down on the ground, praying, "My Father! If it is possible, let this cup of suffering be taken away from me. Yet I want your will, not mine." 40 Then he returned to the disciples and found them asleep. He said to Peter, "Couldn't you stay awake and watch with me even one hour? 41 Keep alert and pray. Otherwise temptation will overpower you. For though the spirit is willing enough, the body is weak!"

42 Again he left them and prayed, "My Father! If this cup cannot be taken away until I drink it, your will be done." 43 He returned to them again and found them sleeping, for they just couldn't keep their eyes open.

44 So he went back to pray a third time, saying the same things again. 45 Then he came to the disciples and said, "Still sleeping? Still resting? Look, the time has come. I, the Son of Man, am betrayed into the hands of sinners. 46 Up, let's be going. See, my betrayer is here!"
NLT


Hope this answers most of your questions to the Christian Belief. ;)

[cabdirazzaq]

Correct! ;)


Well, it's actually quite the opposite,the Bible says that one SHOULD take another's Burden.
Re-read that scripture, That answers the question of WHY he killed him for our stupidity.
He also died for us so that all the Messiah prophecies may be fulfilled, including this one:

Isa 53

Who has believed our message? To whom will the LORD reveal his saving power? 2 My servant grew up in the LORD's presence like a tender green shoot, sprouting from a root in dry and sterile ground. There was nothing beautiful or majestic about his appearance, nothing to attract us to him. 3 He was despised and rejected — a man of sorrows, acquainted with bitterest grief. We turned our backs on him and looked the other way when he went by. He was despised, and we did not care.

4 Yet it was our weaknesses he carried; it was our sorrows that weighed him down. And we thought his troubles were a punishment from God for his own sins! 5 But he was wounded and crushed for our sins. He was beaten that we might have peace. He was whipped, and we were healed! 6 All of us have strayed away like sheep. We have left God's paths to follow our own. Yet the LORD laid on him the guilt and sins of us all.

7 He was oppressed and treated harshly, yet he never said a word. He was led as a lamb to the slaughter. And as a sheep is silent before the shearers, he did not open his mouth. 8 From prison and trial they led him away to his death. But who among the people realized that he was dying for their sins — that he was suffering their punishment? 9 He had done no wrong, and he never deceived anyone. But he was buried like a criminal; he was put in a rich man's grave.

10 But it was the LORD's good plan to crush him and fill him with grief. Yet when his life is made an offering for sin, he will have a multitude of children, many heirs. He will enjoy a long life, and the LORD's plan will prosper in his hands. 11 When he sees all that is accomplished by his anguish, he will be satisfied. And because of what he has experienced, my righteous servant will make it possible for many to be counted righteous, for he will bear all their sins. 12 I will give him the honors of one who is mighty and great, because he exposed himself to death. He was counted among those who were sinners. He bore the sins of many and interceded for sinners.
NLT

Who else could this have been but Jesus?
The Koran says that Jesus didn't die, but Judas for him, which already Makes BOTH the Gosspels,and the Torah wrong ( Eventhough you still believe in the creation story of Genesis, which you try to defend.)

And you're right, Jesus didn't want to die. However, he didn't fight either, instead he submitted to the Lord the Father, for His will would be done:

Matt 26:38-46

8 He told them, "My soul is crushed with grief to the point of death. Stay here and watch with me."

39 He went on a little farther and fell face down on the ground, praying, "My Father! If it is possible, let this cup of suffering be taken away from me. Yet I want your will, not mine." 40 Then he returned to the disciples and found them asleep. He said to Peter, "Couldn't you stay awake and watch with me even one hour? 41 Keep alert and pray. Otherwise temptation will overpower you. For though the spirit is willing enough, the body is weak!"

42 Again he left them and prayed, "My Father! If this cup cannot be taken away until I drink it, your will be done." 43 He returned to them again and found them sleeping, for they just couldn't keep their eyes open.

44 So he went back to pray a third time, saying the same things again. 45 Then he came to the disciples and said, "Still sleeping? Still resting? Look, the time has come. I, the Son of Man, am betrayed into the hands of sinners. 46 Up, let's be going. See, my betrayer is here!"
NLT


Hope this answers most of your questions to the Christian Belief. ;)
Yea you are correct there. I was thinking on a Quranic verse but I did read that its says in OT: "and Moses returned to YHVH and said: 'this people has sinned a great sin and made a golden calf! However, if you wish, forgive them. If not, please blot me instead out of your book which you wrote.' And YHVH said to Moses: 'the one who sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book!" Exodus 32:31-33.

I still cant comprehend how God can do something he has never done before, killing good humans for the deeds of the bad. The OT mentions our Lord as one, the bible never uses the word trinity yet people worship Christ, to me it sounds fairly irrational...

Claudia, Ive said it before I do believe the bible was sent down as a mercy to people yet I do believe it is not in its orginal condition. Ohh and he did "fight" since he ordered his companions to buy swords and he putted them under guard, interesting... He really doesnt want to die and it says in your scripture that theres this man up there crying "My God My God, why have you forsaken me" is this the words of Christ up there?

Claudia, can we agree that God is one, if he is. Can we then agree that we should follow his messangers?, if all his messangers from Noah(peace be upon him) teached the belief in one God and forgiveness through repentence, why would it suddently change?

Why are you worshipping Christ even though he didnt ask you to do this?

[ryupower]

Yea you are correct there. I was thinking on a Quranic verse but I did read that its says in OT: "and Moses returned to YHVH and said: 'this people has sinned a great sin and made a golden calf! However, if you wish, forgive them. If not, please blot me instead out of your book which you wrote.' And YHVH said to Moses: 'the one who sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book!" Exodus 32:31-33.

I still cant comprehend how God can do something he has never done before, killing good humans for the deeds of the bad. The OT mentions our Lord as one, the bible never uses the word trinity yet people worship Christ, to me it sounds fairly irrational...

Claudia, Ive said it before I do believe the bible was sent down as a mercy to people yet I do believe it is not in its orginal condition. Ohh and he did "fight" since he ordered his companions to buy swords and he putted them under guard, interesting... He really doesnt want to die and it says in your scripture that theres this man up there crying "My God My God, why have you forsaken me" is this the words of Christ up there?

Claudia, can we agree that God is one, if he is. Can we then agree that we should follow his messangers?, if all his messangers from Noah(peace be upon him) teached the belief in one God and forgiveness through repentence, why would it suddently change?

Why are you worshipping Christ even though he didnt ask you to do this? Christ never ordered his companions to buy weapons, now where'd you get that from?



And I already answered your questions in one of the scriptures, I gave you. However, I'll post it again ( Along with other scriptures, this time different things are in bold, and more verses I left in, and edited out. ) :

John 3:13-21

13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."
NKJV


John 6:41-59

The Jews then complained about Him, because He said, "I am the bread which came down from heaven." 42 And they said,"Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says, 'I have come down from heaven'?"
...(it continues):
Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world."


53 Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.
NKJV


John 10:25-30

25 Jesus replied, "I have already told you, and you don't believe me. The proof is what I do in the name of my Father. 26 But you don't believe me because you are not part of my flock. 27 My sheep recognize my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one will snatch them away from me, 29 for my Father has given them to me, and he is more powerful than anyone else. So no one can take them from me. 30 The Father and I are one."
NLT

John 10:33-38

They replied, "Not for any good work, but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, have made yourself God."

34 Jesus replied, "It is written in your own law that God said to certain leaders of the people, 'I say, you are gods!' 35 And you know that the Scriptures cannot be altered. So if those people, who received God's message, were called 'gods,' 36 why do you call it blasphemy when the Holy One who was sent into the world by the Father says, 'I am the Son of God'? 37 Don't believe me unless I carry out my Father's work. 38 But if I do his work, believe in what I have done, even if you don't believe me. Then you will realize that the Father is in me, and I am in the Father."


John 8:12
Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, "I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life."
NKJV

John 16:25-17:1

"These things I have spoken to you in figurative language; but the time is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figurative language, but I will tell you plainly about the Father. 26 In that day you will ask in My name, and I do not say to you that I shall pray the Father for you; 27 for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me, and have believed that I came forth from God. 28 I came forth from the Father and have come into the world. Again, I leave the world and go to the Father."

29 His disciples said to Him, "See, now You are speaking plainly, and using no figure of speech! 30 Now we are sure that You know all things, and have no need that anyone should question You. By this we believe that You came forth from God."

31 Jesus answered them, "Do you now believe? 32 Indeed the hour is coming, yes, has now come, that you will be scattered, each to his own, and will leave Me alone. And yet I am not alone, because the Father is with Me. 33 These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world."
NKJV


John 8:57-58

7 Then the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham ?"

58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM." (he was there before Abraham)
NKJV

John 5:18-23

18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God . 19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner. 20 For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel. 21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will. 22 For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, 23 that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
NKJV

Another thing about the blood covenant:

Matt 26:28-29
8 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
NKJV

Mark 16:14-18

Later He appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen. 15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons ; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."
NKJV

Can you heal people by laying hands on them? Can you speak in 'new tongues'? Can you cast out demons?
Just a question for Muslims ;) .



Anyways, I hope these scriptures answered your questions. ^^; (took a while to find them all, I admit. There are also many more passages in the Bible...)

Edit:Sorry for making this post so long, but why, when someone asks you a question, not answer them fully? ;)

[cabdirazzaq]

Christ never ordered his companions to buy weapons, now where'd you get that from"He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one" -Luke 22:36

Thank you for your detailed answer, though I really fail to see how this proves why he should be worshipped.. Claudia, could you like -just to show us your faith- drink some poison and touch some cancer patients ^^
Those verses are excluded from some versions of the bible, the NIV authors claim that this verse was altered or added, hmm....

Ohh and by the way:
Want FREE Fire Insurance? Call GOD alone NOW!(according to OT and all previous scriptures)

[ryupower]

Claudia, could you like -just to show us your faith- drink some poison and touch some cancer patients ^^


I won't drink poison on purpose, the Bible says not to temmt God (OT)

Oh, and BTW: I've SEEN healings happen. Actually, it's pretty common, go to the next evengelisation to see yourself. And yes, I know of people being healed of things like AIDS and Cancer, - even of people who got healed of things like screwed up spines, or broken limbs.
I'm very used to it by now, nothing realy shocking anymore.

I can cast out demons (and if it's God's will- heal them throught their power.)

If you don't believe me, why not start a Thread in the Christian forum asking them if they've witnessed healing, or have been healed by the touch of Christ?
I know I got rid of some demons, thanks to him.

And the Prophecy fortold by Isaiah (which I've previously posted) :

Isa 54

Who has believed our report?And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? 2 For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant,And as a root out of dry ground.He has no form or comeliness;And when we see Him,There is no beauty that we should desire Him. 3 He is despised and rejected by men,A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief.And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him;He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
4 Surely He has borne our griefs And carried our sorrows;Yet we esteemed Him stricken,Smitten by God, and afflicted. 5 But He was wounded for our transgressions,He was bruised for our iniquities;The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,And by His stripes we are healed . 6 All we like sheep have gone astray;We have turned, every one, to his own way;And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted,Yet He opened not His mouth;He was led as a lamb to the slaughter,And as a sheep before its shearers is silent,So He opened not His mouth. 8 He was taken from prison and from judgment,And who will declare His generation?For He was cut off from the land of the living;For the transgressions of My people He was stricken. 9 And they made His grave with the wicked — But with the rich at His death,Because He had done no violence,Nor was any deceit in His mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him;He has put Him to grief.When You make His soul an offering for sin,He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,And the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand. 11 He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied.By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,For He shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great,And He shall divide the spoil with the strong,Because He poured out His soul unto death,And He was numbered with the transgressors,And He bore the sin of many,And made intercession for the transgressors.


NKJV


Is in every version of the Bible! ;)

*Maybe* even the Koran.

Also, -show me atleast 3 of the verses in my previous post that do not share the same meaning in different versions of the Bible. I made sure to keep it in the Gosspels for you.
I'll be waiting! ;)

[Soulless||Chaos]

That means that you're contradicting the laws Allah gave to Moses...how come?
This really strikes me as funny. :D In other threads you explained yourself how OT stuff doesn't matter, since the NT replaced it or whatever, but then you don't believe the same of Islam? :rolleyes:

[ryupower]

This really strikes me as funny. :D In other threads you explained yourself how OT stuff doesn't matter, since the NT replaced it or whatever, but then you don't believe the same of Islam? :rolleyes:
Looks like you overlooked something ;):



OK, now where was the blood sacrifice law changed in the Koran?
Curious to know( I know quite a few passages in the Koran, but not that one...)
He hasn't given me an answer yet.

[Soulless||Chaos]

Looks like you overlooked something ;):

He hasn't given me an answer yet.
Well I don't know much about Islam, but isn't it sort of loosely based on Christianity much the way Christianity is based on Judaism? So if something in the NT changed the law, it would seem quite possible Islam would take that into account wouldn't it? :confused:

[ryupower]

Well I don't know much about Islam, but isn't it sort of loosely based on Christianity much the way Christianity is based on Judaism? So if something in the NT changed the law, it would seem quite possible Islam would take that into account wouldn't it? :confused:
The Old Testament states that without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness.
The New Testament told of the Final Blood sacrifice, - Jesus. Pure human blood spilt for sinful blood, which washed away all sin, except the sin of disbelief.

But Muslims don't believe Jesus died on the cross, they say that Judas died for him. So they *seem* to ignore that law...


That's why I was asking where it says in the Koran that that Law of Blood sacrifice was changed.;)

And yes, Muslims base their belief on the old testament and most of the Gosspel (4 books in the New testament, the rest they reject). They call their scriptures the 'last' Testament.

[cabdirazzaq]

Explain the blood sacrifice first

[ryupower]

Explain the blood sacrifice first I already did...or, atleast, I gave you the scriptures where to find it...

[ryupower]

To pay for our sins. Only innocent blood can wash away sinful blood. Leviticus 3-6 is all about blood sacrfices of animals, because animals are innocent.

:)

[cabdirazzaq]

Well, you do know that without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness...am I not right?
If this is your point, that one must sacrifice in order to be forgiven then this is not the Quran. Why because the verses speaking about forgiveness say that you need to repent sincerly to be forgiven but slaughtering of animals is still consider a worship if done correctly.

Let me remind you of one thing here. The prophet(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) gave us some guidlines concerning the bible, he told us not to accept(the bible we have today) it totally nor to reject some verses totally since we believe its mixed with human thoughts aswell as divine insperations. We do not rule or take anything from the torah or the gospels we only believe that they were sent before but without following its rules.

You say you cast out demons, may I ask how?

[ryupower]

If this is your point, that one must sacrifice in order to be forgiven then this is not the Quran. Why because the verses speaking about forgiveness say that you need to repent sincerly to be forgiven but slaughtering of animals is still consider a worship if done correctly.

Let me remind you of one thing here. The prophet(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) gave us some guidlines concerning the bible, he told us not to accept(the bible we have today) it totally nor to reject some verses totally since we believe its mixed with human thoughts aswell as divine insperations. We do not rule or take anything from the torah or the gospels we only believe that they were sent before but without following its rules.

You say you cast out demons, may I ask how?
The person must be ready and wanting to get rid of a demon (otherwise 7 others will come ). One takes authority over the demon and order him come out of the person in Jesus' name, - Just like Jesus and his apostals did (the book of Acts has alot of information about this).

Them Demons are really ugly....^^;

If you want, there's more detailed info here:

http://www.tbm.org/castoutdemons.htm


The person who got the demon cast out of him/her usually feels as if warm honey was melting down them...


The sacrifices aren't worship like the Pagans see it, it's a covenant to pay for your wrongdoings, not to please the deity..

If you don't believe in the blood sacrifices, you may as well not believe in the ten commandments. That's what the whole relationship in Torah times and Jesus times was all about...
What did you think the Passover meal in Jerusalem was, a party? :p


BTW: Christians also believe that salvation comes through repentance. Because Jesus already payed for all sin (except disbelief and blasphemy against the Holy Spirit).

But since you don't believe that Jesus died on the cross, there's no sacrifice behind your repentance (unless you do some). Therefore going against the Laws given to Moses, without (I believe) having this law changed in the Last Testament.

If you wouldn't have to do this, why doesn't the LT have a verse in which this law was changed in? Didn't Muhammed and the other prophets set all the rules straight?:confused:

[cabdirazzaq]

The person must be ready and wanting to get rid of a demon (otherwise 7 others will come ). One takes authority over the demon and order him come out of the person in Jesus' name. Just like Jesus and his apostals did (the book of Acts has alot of information about this) They're really ugly....^^;

If you want, there's more detailed info here:

http://www.tbm.org/castoutdemons.htm


The person who got the demon cast out of him/her usually feels as if warm honey was melting down them...


The sacrifices aren't worship like the Pagans see it, it's a covenant to pay for your wrongdoings, not to please the deity..

If you don't believe in the blood sacrifices, you may as well not believe in the ten commandments. That's what the whole relationship in Torah times and Jesus times was all about...
What did you think the Passover meal in Jerusalem was, a party? :p


BTW: Christians also believe that salvation comes through repentance. Because Jesus already payed for all sin (except disbelief and blasphemy against the Holy Spirit).

But since you don't believe that Jesus died on the cross, there's no sacrifice behind your repentance (unless you do some). Therefore going against the Laws given to Moses, without (I believe) having this law changed in the Last Testament.

If you wouldn't have to do this, why doesn't the LT have a verse in which this law was changed in? Didn't Muhammed and the other prophets set all the rules straight?:confused:
I read the part about demon withdrawal and i must say it was interesting. Do I believe in this and that which you have experienced? Yes, it could be true(you like going what!). You may have seen these things but what does this prove, pagan priests can do the exact same thing through the exact same method. This by calling on somebody else besides the Creator which satisfies the demon who then leaves. You said: in Jesus' name. Just like Jesus but Christ said he did this by the power of God so why not follow his example?

Now Im confused, so Christ died for our sins yet we are supposed to repent? Ehh how does that work out? I dont see your point with the blood sacrifice thing, why would this affect us muslims since we dont follow that law?

[ryupower]

I read the part about demon withdrawal and i must say it was interesting. Do I believe in this and that which you have experienced? Yes, it could be true(you like going what!). You may have seen these things but what does this prove, pagan priests can do the exact same thing through the exact same method. This by calling on somebody else besides the Creator which satisfies the demon who then leaves. You said: in Jesus' name. Just like Jesus but Christ said he did this by the power of God so why not follow his example?

Now Im confused, so Christ died for our sins yet we are supposed to repent? Ehh how does that work out? I dont see your point with the blood sacrifice thing, why would this affect us muslims since we dont follow that law? You follow the ten commandments, right? If so, blood sacrifice must also be held in. Since this major law doesn't seem to have been changed. But I'm tired of saying 'look at Laviticus', so I'll just post the parts I mean :
Lev 3-5


Leviticus 3

3:1 The Peace Offering

'When his offering is a sacrifice of a peace offering, if he offers it of the herd, whether male or female, he shall offer it without blemish before the LORD. 2 And he shall lay his hand on the head of his offering, and kill it at the door of the tabernacle of meeting; and Aaron's sons, the priests, shall sprinkle the blood all around on the altar. 3 Then he shall offer from the sacrifice of the peace offering an offering made by fire to the LORD. The fat that covers the entrails and all the fat that is on the entrails, 4 the two kidneys and the fat that is on them by the flanks, and the fatty lobe attached to the liver above the kidneys, he shall remove; 5 and Aaron's sons shall burn it on the altar upon the burnt sacrifice, which is on the wood that is on the fire, as an offering made by fire, a sweet aroma to the LORD.
6'If his offering as a sacrifice of a peace offering to the LORD is of the flock, whether male or female, he shall offer it without blemish. 7 If he offers a lamb as his offering, then he shall offer it before the LORD. 8 And he shall lay his hand on the head of his offering, and kill it before the tabernacle of meeting; and Aaron's sons shall sprinkle its blood all around on the altar.
9'Then he shall offer from the sacrifice of the peace offering, as an offering made by fire to the LORD, its fat and the whole fat tail which he shall remove close to the backbone. And the fat that covers the entrails and all the fat that is on the entrails, 10 the two kidneys and the fat that is on them by the flanks, and the fatty lobe attached to the liver above the kidneys, he shall remove; 11 and the priest shall burn them on the altar as food, an offering made by fire to the LORD.
12'And if his offering is a goat, then he shall offer it before the LORD. 13 He shall lay his hand on its head and kill it before the tabernacle of meeting; and the sons of Aaron shall sprinkle its blood all around on the altar. 14 Then he shall offer from it his offering, as an offering made by fire to the LORD. The fat that covers the entrails and all the fat that is on the entrails, 15 the two kidneys and the fat that is on them by the flanks, and the fatty lobe attached to the liver above the kidneys, he shall remove; 16 and the priest shall burn them on the altar as food, an offering made by fire for a sweet aroma; all the fat is the LORD's.
17'This shall be a perpetual statute throughout your generations in all your dwellings: you shall eat neither fat nor blood.'"

Leviticus 4

4:1 The Sin Offering

Now the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 2 "Speak to the children of Israel, saying:'If a person sins unintentionally against any of the commandments of the LORD in anything which ought not to be done, and does any of them, 3 if the anointed priest sins, bringing guilt on the people, then let him offer to the LORD for his sin which he has sinned a young bull without blemish as a sin offering. 4 He shall bring the bull to the door of the tabernacle of meeting before the LORD, lay his hand on the bull's head, and kill the bull before the LORD. 5 Then the anointed priest shall take some of the bull's blood and bring it to the tabernacle of meeting. 6 The priest shall dip his finger in the blood and sprinkle some of the blood seven times before the LORD, in front of the veil of the sanctuary. 7 And the priest shall put some of the blood on the horns of the altar of sweet incense before the LORD, which is in the tabernacle of meeting; and he shall pour the remaining blood of the bull at the base of the altar of the burnt offering, which is at the door of the tabernacle of meeting. 8 He shall take from it all the fat of the bull as the sin offering. The fat that covers the entrails and all the fat which is on the entrails, 9 the two kidneys and the fat that is on them by the flanks, and the fatty lobe attached to the liver above the kidneys, he shall remove, 10 as it was taken from the bull of the sacrifice of the peace offering; and the priest shall burn them on the altar of the burnt offering. 11 But the bull's hide and all its flesh, with its head and legs, its entrails and offal — 12 the whole bull he shall carry outside the camp to a clean place, where the ashes are poured out, and burn it on wood with fire; where the ashes are poured out it shall be burned.
13'Now if the whole congregation of Israel sins unintentionally, and the thing is hidden from the eyes of the assembly, and they have done something against any of the commandments of the LORD in anything which should not be done, and are guilty; 14 when the sin which they have committed becomes known, then the assembly shall offer a young bull for the sin, and bring it before the tabernacle of meeting. 15 And the elders of the congregation shall lay their hands on the head of the bull before the LORD. Then the bull shall be killed before the LORD. 16 The anointed priest shall bring some of the bull's blood to the tabernacle of meeting. 17 Then the priest shall dip his finger in the blood and sprinkle it seven times before the LORD, in front of the veil. 18 And he shall put some of the blood on the horns of the altar which is before the LORD, which is in the tabernacle of meeting; and he shall pour the remaining blood at the base of the altar of burnt offering, which is at the door of the tabernacle of meeting. 19 He shall take all the fat from it and burn it on the altar. 20 And he shall do with the bull as he did with the bull as a sin offering; thus he shall do with it. So the priest shall make atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them. 21 Then he shall carry the bull outside the camp, and burn it as he burned the first bull. It is a sin offering for the assembly.
22'When a ruler has sinned, and done something unintentionally against any of the commandments of the LORD his God in anything which should not be done, and is guilty, 23 or if his sin which he has committed comes to his knowledge, he shall bring as his offering a kid of the goats, a male without blemish. 24 And he shall lay his hand on the head of the goat, and kill it at the place where they kill the burnt offering before the LORD. It is a sin offering. 25 The priest shall take some of the blood of the sin offering with his finger, put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and pour its blood at the base of the altar of burnt offering. 26 And he shall burn all its fat on the altar, like the fat of the sacrifice of the peace offering. So the priest shall make atonement for him concerning his sin, and it shall be forgiven him.
27'If anyone of the common people sins unintentionally by doing something against any of the commandments of the LORD in anything which ought not to be done, and is guilty, 28 or if his sin which he has committed comes to his knowledge, then he shall bring as his offering a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he has committed. 29 And he shall lay his hand on the head of the sin offering, and kill the sin offering at the place of the burnt offering. 30 Then the priest shall take some of its blood with his finger, put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and pour all the remaining blood at the base of the altar. 31 He shall remove all its fat, as fat is removed from the sacrifice of the peace offering; and the priest shall burn it on the altar for a sweet aroma to the LORD. So the priest shall make atonement for him, and it shall be forgiven him.
32'If he brings a lamb as his sin offering, he shall bring a female without blemish. 33 Then he shall lay his hand on the head of the sin offering, and kill it as a sin offering at the place where they kill the burnt offering. 34 The priest shall take some of the blood of the sin offering with his finger, put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and pour all the remaining blood at the base of the altar. 35 He shall remove all its fat, as the fat of the lamb is removed from the sacrifice of the peace offering. Then the priest shall burn it on the altar, according to the offerings made by fire to the LORD. So the priest shall make atonement for his sin that he has committed, and it shall be forgiven him.

Leviticus 5

5:1 The Trespass Offering

'If a person sins in hearing the utterance of an oath, and is a witness, whether he has seen or known of the matter — if he does not tell it, he bears guilt.
2'Or if a person touches any unclean thing, whether it is the carcass of an unclean beast, or the carcass of unclean livestock, or the carcass of unclean creeping things, and he is unaware of it, he also shall be unclean and guilty. 3 Or if he touches human uncleanness — whatever uncleanness with which a man may be defiled, and he is unaware of it — when he realizes it, then he shall be guilty.
4'Or if a person swears, speaking thoughtlessly with his lips to do evil or to do good, whatever it is that a man may pronounce by an oath, and he is unaware of it — when he realizes it, then he shall be guilty in any of these matters.
5'And it shall be, when he is guilty in any of these matters, that he shall confess that he has sinned in that thing; 6 and he shall bring his trespass offering to the LORD for his sin which he has committed, a female from the flock, a lamb or a kid of the goats as a sin offering. So the priest shall make atonement for him concerning his sin.
7'If he is not able to bring a lamb, then he shall bring to the LORD, for his trespass which he has committed, two turtledoves or two young pigeons: one as a sin offering and the other as a burnt offering. 8 And he shall bring them to the priest, who shall offer that which is for the sin offering first, and wring off its head from its neck, but shall not divide it completely. 9 Then he shall sprinkle some of the blood of the sin offering on the side of the altar, and the rest of the blood shall be drained out at the base of the altar. It is a sin offering. 10 And he shall offer the second as a burnt offering according to the prescribed manner. So the priest shall make atonement on his behalf for his sin which he has committed, and it shall be forgiven him.
11'But if he is not able to bring two turtledoves or two young pigeons, then he who sinned shall bring for his offering one-tenth of an ephah of fine flour as a sin offering. He shall put no oil on it, nor shall he put frankincense on it, for it is a sin offering. 12 Then he shall bring it to the priest, and the priest shall take his handful of it as a memorial portion, and burn it on the altar according to the offerings made by fire to the LORD. It is a sin offering. 13 The priest shall make atonement for him, for his sin that he has committed in any of these matters; and it shall be forgiven him. The rest shall be the priest's as a grain offering.'"
14 Offerings with Restitution

Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying: 15 "If a person commits a trespass, and sins unintentionally in regard to the holy things of the LORD, then he shall bring to the LORD as his trespass offering a ram without blemish from the flocks, with your valuation in shekels of silver according to the shekel of the sanctuary, as a trespass offering. 16 And he shall make restitution for the harm that he has done in regard to the holy thing, and shall add one-fifth to it and give it to the priest. So the priest shall make atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering, and it shall be forgiven him.
17 "If a person sins, and commits any of these things which are forbidden to be done by the commandments of the LORD, though he does not know it, yet he is guilty and shall bear his iniquity. 18 And he shall bring to the priest a ram without blemish from the flock, with your valuation, as a trespass offering. So the priest shall make atonement for him regarding his ignorance in which he erred and did not know it, and it shall be forgiven him. 19 It is a trespass offering; he has certainly trespassed against the LORD."
NKJV

This should probably explain repentance as well.
There's much more to it.


Christ said "IN MY NAME thout shall cast out Demons." As you can see in that other post. In all Bibles ( and probably the Quoran ) this is said.

We follow his example, we cast out demons through God (Jesus is God), since Jesus was God, they already feared him, he didn't have to add 'I am Jesus', because they already knew of him.

But we're not God, that's why we need to use Jesus' name.
Demons just hate the blood of Christ, when you bind or cast out devils it's like throwing acid at them. They hate it. Because on that day Jesus was crucified, Satan lost.

Jesus spent 3 days in hell to pay for all sin. An INNOCENT man payed in hell. He then took the 3 keys, and now, whoever believes in him has authority over the devil.

What? You think pagans can 'cast' out demons? Well, they can, but 7 more will come.
It's not even casting out, more like 'switching'.


By us the demon is GONE, without 7 more comming. Without switching.
And they aren't satisfied, they fear Jesus:

Luke 8:26-39

26 A Demon-Possessed Man Healed

(Matt 8:28-9:1; Mark 5:1-20)

Then they sailed to the country of the Gadarenes, which is opposite Galilee. 27 And when He stepped out on the land, there met Him a certain man from the city who had demons for a long time. And he wore no clothes, nor did he live in a house but in the tombs. 28 When he saw Jesus, he cried out, fell down before Him, and with a loud voice said,"What have I to do with You, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg You, do not torment me!" 29 For He had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. For it had often seized him, and he was kept under guard, bound with chains and shackles; and he broke the bonds and was driven by the demon into the wilderness.

30 Jesus asked him, saying, "What is your name?"

And he said, "Legion ," because many demons had entered him. 31 And they begged Him that He would not command them to go out into the abyss.

32 Now a herd of many swine was feeding there on the mountain. So they begged Him that He would permit them to enter them. And He permitted them. 33 Then the demons went out of the man and entered the swine, and the herd ran violently down the steep place into the lake and drowned.

We don't cast out demons with Belzebub, like the Pagans do. Jesus even told his desciples to go cast out demons.

And I should know, I've been into Paganism.

[cabdirazzaq]

This should probably explain repentance as well.
There's much more to it.
Ive read most of your quotes, but this one was just too long

Christ said "IN MY NAME thout shall cast out Demons." As you can see in that other post. In all Bibles ( and probably the Quoran ) this is said.No its not, its not in all the bible and definatly not in the Quran. He says:
I read from christiancourier.com that "Because Mark 16:9-20 is missing from two of the oldest Greek manuscripts, and from some of the early versions, and because of certain perceived problems in the continuity between 16:9ff and the preceding context, most textual critics today question the genuineness of this section. That is, they dispute that it was a part of Mark’s original Gospel "

no to mention the notes found in the NIV bible which says:

"Serious doubts exists as to whether these verses belong to the Gospel of Mark. They are absent from important early manuscripts and display certain peculiarities of vocabulary, style and theological content that are unlike the rest of Mark. His Gospel probably ended at 16:8, or its original ending has been lost.

Once again, why in the name of Christ when he did it in the name of God?


Because on that day Jesus was crucified, Satan lost. How did he loose?


By us the demon is GONE, without 7 more comming. Without switching.
And they aren't satisfied, they fear Jesus:How can they fear a man who said that he cant do anything for him self? In my ears, if they fear Christ they should also fear the harmless cow which cant do nothing for it self either?

[Burbot]

How did he loose?


i dont think Satan truly lost on this, cause well, all the unrepented, and who is not accepted into Heaven through God's mercy, end up in Hell, whatever it is

[ryupower]

Ive read most of your quotes, but this one was just too long

No its not, its not in all the bible and definatly not in the Quran. He says:
I read from christiancourier.com that "Because Mark 16:9-20 is missing from two of the oldest Greek manuscripts, and from some of the early versions, and because of certain perceived problems in the continuity between 16:9ff and the preceding context, most textual critics today question the genuineness of this section. That is, they dispute that it was a part of Mark’s original Gospel "

no to mention the notes found in the NIV bible which says:

"Serious doubts exists as to whether these verses belong to the Gospel of Mark. They are absent from important early manuscripts and display certain peculiarities of vocabulary, style and theological content that are unlike the rest of Mark. His Gospel probably ended at 16:8, or its original ending has been lost.

Once again, why in the name of Christ when he did it in the name of God?


How did he loose?

How can they fear a man who said that he cant do anything for him self? In my ears, if they fear Christ they should also fear the harmless cow which cant do nothing for it self either?


I don't understand your last question.

Satan lost against Christ because Christ took the Keys of Hell. Now we've got authority over him.

Jesus was God (I just found many more verses supporting this.). And Jesus just said 'get out', and they went out. I don't recall him saying 'in the name of God', but I could be mistaken.

[drumminmama]

Sh'ma Israel, Adonai Elohainu, Adonai Ehad. "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One." The original quote.

What the Xtians conveniently forget is that sacricfice continued until the destruction of the Second Temple under Titus in 70 CE.
about 40 years of sacrifice continue after Jesus walked.Thus he cannot be a great and redeeming sacrifice.

Do you not see how pitiful this is arguing from different books (and the Xtians having translation after translation)?

I really think RU is flaming.

from the forum guidelines that we all agreed to upon registering
# Flaming/Trolling: Flames are posts intended to insult and provoke. Posters who speak incessantly and/or rabidly on some relatively uninteresting subject or with a patently ridiculous attitude will be banned. ****Repeated posts directed with hostility at a particular person or group of people or their beliefs will be cause for banning.***** Any individual who chronically trolls, who regularly posts arguments, flames or personal attacks for no other purpose than to annoy someone or disrupt a discussion will be banned.

[ryupower]

Sh'ma Israel, Adonai Elohainu, Adonai Ehad. "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One." The original quote.

What the Xtians conveniently forget is that sacricfice continued until the destruction of the Second Temple under Titus in 70 CE.
about 40 years of sacrifice continue after Jesus walked.Thus he cannot be a great and redeeming sacrifice.

Do you not see how pitiful this is arguing from different books (and the Xtians having translation after translation)?

I really think RU is flaming.

from the forum guidelines that we all agreed to upon registering
# Flaming/Trolling: Flames are posts intended to insult and provoke. Posters who speak incessantly and/or rabidly on some relatively uninteresting subject or with a patently ridiculous attitude will be banned. ****Repeated posts directed with hostility at a particular person or group of people or their beliefs will be cause for banning.***** Any individual who chronically trolls, who regularly posts arguments, flames or personal attacks for no other purpose than to annoy someone or disrupt a discussion will be banned. I'm not flaming. If I'd be flaming I'd be yelling and screeming and tearing everyone's head off...

And I'm not trolling either. :(
If I'd be trolling I'd put pointless and random Post...( doen't look like I have, does it?)

This isn't even really intended to be an argument at all ( only a discussion. :) )

This certainly isn't the case, sorry if it came through this way! ^^;

[drumminmama]

all you are doing is coming OUT of the Xtian forum and into Islam to provoke withthe tired old "gonna burn in hell" shtick
you are in a passive agressive way, to readers, attacking nonXtians for their beliefs as a group.
again: Repeated posts directed with hostility at a particular person or ****group of people or their beliefs****** will be cause for banning.
I really think you'd get the answers you want at theologyweb.

and actually, one could yell and scream, as long as one stops short of attacks on the individual.

[ryupower]

no, no...I'm not meaning to be hostile.

Most of the stuff here is just answers for Cabdirazzaq's questions. So I gave him answer via scripture. (since he believes in the gosspels).

It's just a simple discussion...about scripture.
And I didn't come in here going like " WHAAAAH!!1! You're all going to hell you fools!!!!"

no.
I asked a question :rolleyes:

[TrippinBTM]

I dunno, this thread seems pointless, as it has gone absolutely no where. Cabdirrazzaq hasn't explained why Muslims stopped doing blood sacrifices, and both of you are just arguing from your own sacred scripture. Face it, RYU, you don't believe the Quran is infallablly the word of God, but Cabdirazzaq does; and he doesn't believe the bible is infallably the word of God, but you do. So, you both has your own seperate infallable scriptures... scriptures that disagree with each other. Now, how can any conclusion be made in this situation? You're both starting the discussion from an infallable position, which means, in each of your own minds, you CANNOT be wrong. So what's the point?

[IronGoth]

Where does the blowing yourself up and a bunch of unbelievers around you and ending up in Heaven with 72 virgins come in?

This may sound flip but it isn't. There are people detonating themselves all over the world thinking that they'll wake up in Paradise having done a work which will guarantee them Paradise.

How does that work for women? Or do women not go into Paradise?

[cabdirazzaq]

Great question, highly appreciated. About the suicide part, there is a hadith(saying) from the prophet(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) in which he said that the one who kills him self will continue killing him self in hell fire.

You have to define what you mean by "disbeliever" since some are hostile soldiers and in war with the muslims while others are civilians. I assume you are speaking about those civilians who are with peace with the muslims-minding their own business- yet they are blown up. There is a famous hadith about this kind of killing: "Whoever has killed a person having a treaty with the Muslims shall not smell the fragrance of Paradise, though its fragrance is found for a span of forty years"

He also forbade his companions to intentionally kill women and children at times of war, what about then, when there is no war at all? Life is something sacred and the taking of innocent life is among the most horrible acts which one can do, as the Quran states(interpretation of the meaning):

... if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people[5.32]

I do not think its correct that the whole of the muslim nation should be blaimed for the action of some muslims, the prophet(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) said: "I warn you of extremism in the Religion for indeed those that came before you were destroyed due to their extremism in the religion."


How does that work for women? Or do women not go into Paradise?

Well, the first martyr of this nation was acually a woman living during the time of the companions. Acually, this question -about women entering paradise- was discussed for centuries by christian scholars and they met several times discussing the issue -if women possesed a soul or not- but the muslims had no room for doubtfulness in this matter. There are several verses speaking about this, some of which are:

The Believers, men and women, are protectors one of another: they enjoin what is just, and forbid what is evil... On them will Allah pour His mercy: for Allah is Exalted in power, Wise[9.72]

And their Lord hath accepted of them, and answered them: "Never will I suffer to be lost the work of any of you, be he male or female: Ye are members, one of another(3.195)
The prophet (peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) said concerning women "Women are the twin halves of men." so she is not some devilish snair whos heart is a trap(Bible,Ecclesiastes 7:26-28) but rather among those who have been honored, dependless of their orgins:

Verily, we have honoured the Children of Adam...[17.70]

[Burbot]

good post cabd :)

[jonny2mad]

flim flam

cab look at the verse that you qoute

... if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people[5.32]

and read a good tafsir like the Tafsir Ibn Kathir I dont know if this link will work but look at the bottom part of the page

http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=5&tid=13723

(it would be as if he killed all mankind. .) means, "Whoever kills one soul that Allah has forbidden killing, is just like he who kills all mankind.

'' Sa`id bin Jubayr said, "He who allows himself to shed the blood of a Muslim, is like he who allows shedding the blood of all people. He who forbids shedding the blood of one Muslim, is like he who forbids shedding the blood of all people.''

In addition, Ibn Jurayj said that Al-A`raj said that Mujahid commented on the Ayah,
(it would be as if he killed all mankind,) "He who kills a believing soul intentionally, Allah makes the Fire of Hell his abode, He will become angry with him, and curse him, and has prepared a tremendous punishment for him, equal to if he had killed all people, his punishment will still be the same.''

if you look at the two quotes from the tafsir above they both say shed the blood of a muslim or who kills a believing soul ....so this doesnt mean everybody is protected by this verse

another interesting part of the verse is the get out clause except "unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land"

now we can all understand what murder is but what the hell does spreading mischief mean in the land mean .

a bit further on in this same sura when you see the punishment for people who cause mischief in the land and wage war against allah that they shall be crucified or have opposite hands and feet cut off .

you read that waging war against allah is just putting a good case that mohammed and islam is a lie .

Mischief in the land refers to various types of evil ,well is lets say worshipping trees evil... we can see that disbelief or contradicting mohammed is considered waging war against allah and that will get you cruicified for that so tree worship may well be classed as mischief .

(The recompense of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off on the opposite sides, or be exiled from the land.) `Wage war' mentioned here means, oppose and contradict, and it includes disbelief, blocking roads and spreading fear in the fairways. Mischief in the land refers to various types of evil. Ibn Jarir recorded that `Ikrimah and Al-Hasan Al-Basri said that the Ayat,

[jonny2mad]

and the reason you dont kill women and children is theres no one to rape or sell

also although suicide bombing is a new technique there are lots of examples were mohammed says that you will get blessings if you die fighting jihad, I would like you or any muslim to show me using the koran where jihad is a spiritual struggle

[jonny2mad]

Waging war against Islam is not limited only to fighting with weapons, rather it may be done verbally such as defaming Islam or the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), or attacking the Qur’aan, and so on. Waging verbal war against Islam may be worse than waging war against it with weapons in some cases.

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah said:

Muhaarabah (waging war against Islam) is of two types: physical and verbal. Waging war verbally against Islam may be worse than waging war physically – as stated above – hence the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) used to kill those who waged war against Islam verbally, whilst letting off some of those who waged war against Islam physically. This ruling is to be applied more strictly after the death of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). Mischief may be caused by physical action or by words, but the damage caused by words is many times greater than that caused by physical action; and the goodness achieved by words in reforming may be many times greater than that achieved by physical action. It is proven that waging war against Allaah and His Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) verbally is worse and the efforts on earth to undermine religion by verbal means is more effective.

if you have a religion that promotes the idea of getting special rewards if you die fighting, that puts a obligation on fighting jihad , the koran says you dont like fighting but often we dont like a thing thats good for us .....well who is to blame if people apply these sort of teachings..

and these teachings of killing people who fight islam with words are being applied today

http://members.aol.com/colwillj/deadtheo.jpgThe late theo van gogh who made a film critical of islam in holland got stabbed and shot and a note pinned to his chest while he was alive, the other people who made it with him will have to spend their lives on the run.... from the so called religion of peace that doesnt mean peace at all but submission

[kiss_the_sky]

I would not react to him any more if I were you Adam, he's not going to listen anyway.

@johnny2mad: I'm from Holland and I saw this movie 'Submission' by Theo van Gogh. I can image why some muslims find it provoking. I don't know whether you saw it, but it shows naked women who have Quran texts on their bodies. This is no reason to kill a moviemaker of course, but I think he should have been more thoughful himself as well. The other people who made this film do have protection, as do have lots of other politicians etc. here. It's not been the same here since the day Pim Fortuyn, another politician got shot. The murder of Theo van Gogh has been our 9/11.

But this is no reason to think of Islam as a violent religion. It is a very small group that screws it up for the rest.

[jonny2mad]

kiss the sky Im pretty sick of people like yourself, who have no evidence that islam is a non violent religion .....and can not disprove the evidence that it is .....and are so craven that you blame the victim for being killed by a bunch of nazis .

if theo van goghs death was your 9/11, wake up... he didnt do anything wrong, if muslims are offended by what dutch people say about their religion why come to europe .

Ive seen submission, but having some womens bare back isnt the only thing that will offend muslims and get them to try to kill you

openly leaving the religion will
proving that islams false will
people have been killed for saying that maybe mohammed wasnt circumsised
following another religion can


I dont like the things that are in islamic scripture ...atheists being burned to death, qoutes like kill all the pagans, so surely if you are so understanding about theo van gogh being killed if atheists and non muslims start killing muslims that will be ok to

read my posts

I have shown that islam is a violent religion disprove what I have to say or shut up

my last post quoted from the best tafsir thats a book that explains the quran and it shows that that verse that cab quoted

if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people[5.32]

applys to muslims it doesnt apply to people like me or pagans , later on in the same sura its says that people like me and theo van gogh who fight allah with words should be crucified

you or cab disprove what I have to say if you cant Im right

so put up or shut up

[cabdirazzaq]

I'de love to disapprove your tailes johnny, but it has to wait until tomorrow. Its getting late and the prayer is closing up.

[jonny2mad]

no hurry cab im off to glastonbury pop festival in a couple of days too
and I will be offline for a week .
hope you have a nice time in syria if your still there, look after yourself jon

[drumminmama]

johhny 2,
Most people in the US who kill are nominally Christian. So is the Klan. shall I take these two messed up groups and extrapolate that to the entire faith?

[jonny2mad]

thats not what Im doing Im not qouting al-queda or some little splinter group .
Im qouting from the most mainline of sources,
the tafseer ibn kathir is about the most respected tafseer there is.

cab seems to admire saudi arabia
this is a list of the rate of blood money you get if you have a relative killed
100,000 riyals if the victim is a Muslim man
50,000 riyals if a Muslim woman
50,000 riyals if a Christian man
25,000 riyals if a Christian woman
6,666 riyals if a Hindu man
3,333 riyals if a Hindu woman.

if human life is valued the same if the person is a muslim or non muslim like cab claims, why is a muslim man valued at about 30 times more than a hindu .

every branch of islam that ive come across has discrimination against non muslims.

in shia islam the highest religous authority as of today states that you need to have a ritual bath if for example you sit on a seat a non muslim sits on ...
kafirs are considered on the same level as shit thats on his website today in english shias make up 30% of the worlds muslims .

in sunni islam which makes up most of the other 70% you have 4 main schools Hanafi Maliki Shafi'i Hanbali.
hanafi are about the most liberal, when I say that they still believe in things like: condoning of slavery and sex slavery, cutting off of hands for stealing, crucifixtion, stoning for adultery, flogging for illegal sexual intercourse, offensive jihad, the third-class status of non-Muslims under Muslim law (dhimmis), the poor status of women, and so on.
but they allow non people of the book (christians and jews) to live in a islamic state thats why I say they are liberal.

right im off to glastonbury will speak in a week

[cabdirazzaq]

[QUOTE=jonny2mad]kiss the sky Im pretty sick of people like yourself, who have no evidence that islam is a non violent religion .....and can not disprove the evidence that it is .....and are so fucking craven that you blame the victim for being killed by a bunch of nazis .

if theo van goghs death was your 9/11, wake up... he didnt do anything wrong, if muslims are offended by what dutch people say about their religion why come to europe .

Ive seen submission, but having some womens bare back isnt the only thing that will offend muslims and get them to try to kill you

openly leaving the religion will
proving that islams false will
people have been killed for saying that maybe mohammed wasnt circumsised
following another religion can


I dont like the things that are in islamic scripture ...atheists being burned to death, qoutes like kill all the pagans, so surely if you are so understanding about theo van gogh being killed if atheists and non muslims start killing muslims that will be ok to

read my posts

I have shown that islam is a violent religion disprove what I have to say or shut up

my last post quoted from the best tafsir thats a book that explains the quran and it shows that that verse that cab quoted

if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people[5.32]

applys to muslims it doesnt apply to people like me or pagans , later on in the same sura its says that people like me and theo van gogh who fight allah with words should be crucified

you or cab disprove what I have to say if you cant Im right
Im having the time of my life, thank you

Johnny, you seem to have a great difficulty to differ between argumenting and slighting. I think it was Aristotle who said that most of conflicts starts by someone slighting someone else but I am not saying that we should kill all those people on the streets who slight islam(indeed in that case, most of the worlds population would be dead). In islam for example, the rapist and the killer are both killed but that does not mean that we kill every murderer nor every rapist here in europe, this is why the scholars have forbidded honor killing since it means that people are taking the law in their own hands. Furthermore you give us the impression that the prophet(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) killed all those who slighted him. Without doubt, to say that is indeed stupid since a huge portion of the arabs used to tease and slight him every day. On some occasions he was severly mocked and some of his companions wanted to kill the man who said it but he replied in the matter : "Let him be, it will do no good"

By writing phrases such as: "atheists being burned to death," you are implying that islam does not accept being critisized yet the prophet(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) invited christians in his mosque for a debate that took place for severel hours and the Quran says:

...and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious.
and in sura Ma'ida(same sura you quoted earlier) after describing the deceitfulness of a people towards the prophet((peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) the verse ends with: but forgive them, and overlook (their misdeeds): for Allah loveth those who are kind.

And by the way, burning does not exist in our scriptures, its mentioned in one hadith that its forbidden to "punish with that which Allah punishes with".
I understand you are supporting free speech but everything cant and wont be tolerated. I can't make a movie -greatly slighting the swedish king- without expecting some kind of consequence and why would I do that anyway? The quran forbids slighting other peoples faith (sura An'aam) so why should other people slight ours? There is a great difference between critisizing and defaiming, if you havent learn that difference yet, thats not my problem but yours. And since when have I said that I admire the saudi goverment?

[jonny2mad]

islam doesnt jail the rapist and killer it may in peace time but you have the rules of right hand possessions and offensive jihad .

anyway
and if you slighted the king of sweden I doubt anything great would happen to you, I could insult the queen of england and nothing would happen to me .

your right burning isnt a general punishment in islam well not in this life anyway ....but cruifixtion, stoning (only in hadith for stoning) ,blinding , chopping off hands flogging are .

and in that haddith that mentions burning atheists it doesnt say dont kill atheists, it says we burned them then someone else says dont use that method kill them in another way .

Thats still not very nice, the koran has things like kill the pagans isnt that insulting to pagans .

if I say mohammed was a very immoral man and I back up why I think that ,is that worse than saying kill all the muslims.

sticks and stones can break my bones but names can never hurt me .

which would you rather if I said "you have smelly feet lets say " or if I say "lets kill cab" especially when we know that this call to kill cabs or atheists and pagans as been carried out.

I had a great time in glastonbury by the way and set fire to my beard (which is very long) by accident while moving a candle was quite funny , hope your time in syria was good

[jonny2mad]

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah said:

Muhaarabah (waging war against Islam) is of two types: physical and verbal. Waging war verbally against Islam may be worse than waging war physically – as stated above – hence the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) used to kill those who waged war against Islam verbally, whilst letting off some of those who waged war against Islam physically

wouldnt someone like ibn warriq be classed as someone waging war with words against islam ,he as you know lives under a false name as do most other major intellectuals against islam .

I cant think of another major religion in which this is the case, the same would apply to open apostates most of them are scared of being bumped off even in the west .

[ryupower]

johhny 2,
Most people in the US who kill are nominally Christian. So is the Klan. shall I take these two messed up groups and extrapolate that to the entire faith?
Those people ain't Christians. They're liers.

[Meagain]

Please read the sticky at the top of this Forum titled "Please Read".

[jonny2mad]

read it, you have a point

[yazzer]

Muslims, I've got a question:

Who here is secure that he's going to Paradise?
I am. I know I'm a good person.

[cabdirazzaq]

I am. I know I'm a good person.How can you be sure when the greatest of the companions of the prophet were unsure? People who dedicated their life to charity, praying and striving together with the prophet of God(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him)

"It will not be in accordance with your desires, nor the desires of the People of the Scripture. He who doeth wrong will have the recompense thereof, and will not find against Allah any protecting friend or helper"(chapter Nisaa(Women))

"None feels secure from the Plan of Allaah except the people who are the losers"

[yazzer]

How can you be sure when the greatest of the companions of the prophet were unsure? People who dedicated their life to charity, praying and striving together with the prophet of God(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him)

"It will not be in accordance with your desires, nor the desires of the People of the Scripture. He who doeth wrong will have the recompense thereof, and will not find against Allah any protecting friend or helper"(chapter Nisaa(Women))

"None feels secure from the Plan of Allaah except the people who are the losers"
I guess I wasn't taught to fear God, but to love him, as he loves me, because I'm not a cruel person deserving of punishment. Yes I acknowledge that I could be wrong about many things, as we all are. Nobody knows the ''truth'.
I interpret the above as not knowing what could happen in life and to be prepared at all times. Don't be too sure and haughty and the like. Always remember, that you could lose everything you have very easily. To be grateful. I forgot to mention one thing, the kind of Muslim you are depends heavily upon the culture in which you live too.