Rye bread mould

[John221]

I heard on TV a while back about this dubious theory that certain people during the 1500s believed that they were witches because of a certain type of mould that grew on rye and caused them to hallucinate, making them believe that they could fly.

I was just wondering, if you leave a loaf of rye bread out for a couple of weeks do you reckon you could grow your own hallucinogen? What do you reckon, guys?

[RELAYER]

i think its only a certain kind of rye bread?, but i am not sure as i havent done it myself. thats just what i heard

[2cesarewild]

The fungus is called ergot, and a chemical from it is the main precursor for the most widely known hallucinogen, d-lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD).

[gnrm23]

http://www.erowid.org/plants/ergot/ergot.shtml

[EllisDTripp]

The problem is that ergot will not only make you hallucinate, but there those little annoying side effects like convulsions, gangrene, and limbs falling off....:)

[2cesarewild]

ROFL... i know, I always wondered like wtf!?!?! limbs FALLING off?

[EllisDTripp]

Yeah. Some ergot alkaloids are powerful vasoconstrictors, or substances that cause blood vessels to shrink. In doing so, they can cause a loss of blood flow to the extremities, followed by gangrene and eventual loss of the affected limb.

Lotsa interesting info here:

http://www.botany.hawaii.edu/faculty/wong/BOT135/LECT12.HTM

[Rapunzel]

*

[EllisDTripp]

But at least he will be getting some penicillin....:)

[2cesarewild]

Ergot the mold that grows on the actual rye plant. Mold on rye bread will be the same kinds of mold on regular bread. You'll just be eating nasty bread if you leave rye bread out for a few week!Yea, but the scenario the original poster was talking about was from people cooking with infected rye grain, then eating the bread.


I hate when you open the bread, there's like two slices left.. you're all like "yessssss!"... you reach in and pull them out, blue freaking mold everywhere... trash.

[applejack]

But at least he will be getting some penicillin....:)Only BLUE bread mold and *I* don't advise consumption of it.

Interesting statement that to imply moldy bread is good for you! Wouldn't it be safer to say bread mold MAY contain penicillin?
It could also make you ill. Damn, kid, use your head! I'd hate to hear someone died from believing that your info may have more than a needlepoint of truth and trying it. There ARE poisonous bread molds...certainly more than one beneficial mold may be found growing on bread.


Damn...and ergot causes DRY gangrene-not true gangrene, Ellis.

The witches' brew contained scopolamine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scopolamine), not ergot. Ergot caused the black plague.

[EllisDTripp]

Only BLUE bread mold and *I* don't advise consumption of it.

No Shit? :)

It could also make you ill. Damn, kid, use your head! I'd hate to hear someone died from believing that your info may have more than a needlepoint of truth and trying it.

Uhhh, if somebody is stupid enough to consume moldy bread hoping to get high, maybe they SHOULD remove themselves from the gene pool before they have a chance to reproduce? If the populace has become so ignorant that boldface warnings not to eat moldy food are required, maybe it's time to just let nature start over again?

Seriously, you can't "idiot proof" the entire world, because trying to do so just encourages the production of bigger and better idiots! :)

And who are you calling a "kid", anyway? I'm older than you are, and I'm the moderator of this forum. :)

[applejack]

It seems you would be a bit more of a responsible leader then, right? No offense, of course...but you are wrong to imply it's beneficial to eat an unknown mold. Ignorance is different than idiocy. Some visitors here would try it. Shame on you, young man!

Please ignore him, people. There is nothing good for you in eating an unknown mold.


btw, you implied one would ingest a helpful dose of penicillin from eating moldy bread(which could get this site in serious shit if a naive member followed your lead)...not that it would get you high.

I'm not attacking you so just relax, don't be so defensive. Your age isn't in your profile and, pardon my assumption, but you post a bit rash at times-more akin to an angry young man with just a tad of a power trip than a trusted leader of a generally adolescent community.
Smile. I am your friend.
:)

[applejack]

But at least he will be getting some penicillin....:)I just wanted to bring this around in case you forgot about it, neighbor.

**The above quoted statement is dangerously WRONG!!**

It isn't trying to 'idiot proof the entire world' by pointing out a dangerously false statement made by a trusted member of an online community. I just want to be certain noone gets themselves killed by remarks made here on the boards. That's part of a moderator's job too, right?

[EllisDTripp]

It seems you would be a bit more of a responsible leader then, right? No offense, of course...but you are wrong to imply it's beneficial to eat an unknown mold. Ignorance is different than idiocy. Some visitors here would try it. Shame on you, young man!

It's called a JOKE. :) You seem to be the only one who took it seriously. This particular forum is dedicated to drug chemistry (an inherently hazardous pursuit), and a somewhat higher level of common sense is assumed here than would be in the "random thoughts" or "young hippies" forums, for example.


The witches' brew contained scopolamine, not ergot.

What "witch's brew" are you talking about? The possible role of ergot in the witch hysteria was due to accidental ingestion coupled with lack of medical knowledge of the effects of ergot alkaloids. See the link I posted above, or this one:

http://www.luminet.net/~wenonah/history/ergot.htm

Yes, witches and others used scopolomine mixtures in divination ("flying ointments", anyone), but that is a completely separate issue from ergotism and the witch hysteria.

Ergot caused the black plague.

No, the black plague was caused by a bacterium, Yersinia Pestis, which is carried by rats and the fleas that live on them. Nothing at all to do with ergotism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yersinia_pestis

The historical disease associated with ergot is called "St. Anthony's Fire":

http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=14891

[applejack]

It's called a JOKE. :) You seem to be the only one who took it seriously. I don't believe everyone that's read this thread has posted in it, do you? This particular forum is dedicated to drug chemistry (an inherently hazardous pursuit), and a somewhat higher level of common sense is assumed here than would be in the "random thoughts" or "young hippies" forums, for example. I agree. it's also true that people may come to this particular forum to learn about drugs or drug chemistry. All bread molds do not penicillin.What "witch's brew" are you talking about? You answer your own question below. Thanks for asking though.Yes, witches and others used scopolomine mixtures in divination ("flying ointments"You're right about the black plague, sorry if that bores you.
I'm not picking a fight, I simply stomp out deadly lies when I see them. It feels good to know I may have saved someone else's life from a fallacy here. I'll leave this thread in your hands now. But don't worry...I'll be back to quelch another one sometime.

[EllisDTripp]

You'll have to register a new nick to do that, though. :)

My suspicions about who you were are now confirmed, so you just got banned along with the rest of your aliases....

[eat_some_LSD]

I don't believe everyone that's read this thread has posted in it, do you? This goes for all forums..check the user velvet, for example...this is a good place to UTFSE, or "Use the fucking search engine," for you non-chemists out there. If you didn't read the forum FAQ, there's several resources for you to leech from until you get the balls to get into college...we all wish we could make LSD in our basement, but that's a moot point, now isn't it?

I'm not picking a fight, I simply stomp out deadly lies when I see them. It feels good to know I may have saved someone else's life from a fallacy here. I'll leave this thread in your hands now. But don't worry...I'll be back to quelch another one sometime.
This hardly seems relevant...if you "want to save someone's life" hit up a rave with some chlorpromazine; we aren't saving lives here, we're preventing such stupidity from happening in the first place. As is discussed in the FAQ that you're supposed to read before you even post, you should check the standard resources, such as Erowid (http://www.erowid.org) or Lycaeum (http://www.lycaeum.org) before you even bother posting. Most of the regulars here are too busy discussing cutting edge compounds and current batches of <insert drug here> to respond to replies of "how do I make LSD in my basement?" Granted I can't say that I haven't asked this very question when I was once was a n00b, but several threads on ONE PAGE about the very same subject should oblige a simple read-through before posting inane threads about issues that have been discussed several-hundred times over on this very forum.

Maybe you should go register over at Bluelight? ;)

[velvet]

..check the user velvet, for example...

... eh.. stumbled across this thread.. hehe.. what about me? What did I do wrong this time? ;)

[oOflyeyesOo]

Isnt the mold that grows contain LSA?

[2cesarewild]

No, the mold is ergot and it produces an alkaloid called ergotamine that is a main precursor for LSD. Ergotamine tartrate is used in small doses for migraine relief I think too...

[EllisDTripp]

Ergot grows on rye while it is still in the field. Modern processing pretty much eliminates ergot by the time you see rye bread in the stores. You MIGHT find a few stray spores in organic rye bread from a hippie health food store, but otherwise, forget it.

The molds that grow on old bread are NOT ergot, but other common molds including (but not limited to) penicillum notatum.

[lostblackdog]

So if you were a chemistry-minded and educated individual who also owned and operated a privately owned rye-farm, as well as organically growing the rye under specific conditions... you could easily produce the ergot that you might need to make a glorious lil' substance that I only wish I had the right connections for... I've been ripped off too many times at too many shows at this point, so all you rednecks out there making meth... quit trying to blow up your trailers and start growing rye... and poppies... and other, safer and more economical substances. You'll still have a market appeal... and trust me.... it'll be better for all of us... At least I think this would be for the best... I can't really promise anything seeing as I have yet to get some REAL cid.... I even traded and handmade african drum to a reasonably trustworthy looking panic head a while back, and in return I was supposed to get 15 hits of "eyes of the world." I had a whole college calling my cell phone after I told only my ex-roomie the news that I might be returning with some.... I mean... there was litterally I line of people at the door when I returned, and although I was getting outrageous offers per hit ( one dude offered $20 a hit!!!), I'm an honest person, so I said I would try two or three to see if it was even real... and then after a few hours, I offered some pre-experienced friends five hits, and tooke two more myself... damn the money... I love my friends... turns out that two hours later I was simply seeing double from smoking some northern lights and my right eye has a dent in the cornea... so i've always seen things a lil' strangely... I couldn't tell if I was trippin' or just stoned, but after realizing that it had now been four hours later, I knew I was ripped off from the start... all my friends agreed that it was absolutely NEVER acid... in any way. The guy even had the shit sealed in a plastic bag in a film canister next to some cold beer he was also sellin'.... And all I was doin' was selling my handmade necklaces, some random artifacts that I have accumulated over time from my travels, and bringin' two friends along for the ride so that they could sit outside and enjoy the scene!

I'm serious man... I KNOW panic... My aunt fucking sang with them, and that kid they sing about... Waker.... I've babysat him! I coulda gone in and sat backstage and then talked and jived with Sonny, who is still close with my aunt, as well as his kickass wife (she gave me one of John Popper's harmonicas, but you better believe that is NEVER for sale in my lifetime!)... there was soooooo much we could have done, but no... I just wanted to chill with a scene I trusted... I wanted to be another cat in the field with all the fire twirlers, drum circles, and street musicians.... I LOVE THAT SHIT!!! It has, and always will be my favorite part about jamband scenes... those who follow the tunes and live on the road... the gypsies of america.... but like a bastard... I got ripped off... and I thought I was finally going to have the experience... as well as my friends... but no..... Not last year in Novemberish... down in Columbia..... So yeah.... if you're gonna make drugs to sell... read up on your shit and please make real cid.... And if you're an asshole dealer who trades fake drugs for drums and stuff.... Karma bitches..... fuckin' Karma.... maybe I deserved it afterall... even though I wasn't rippin' folks off more than like two dollars per necklace... and that was for the labor... and they were nice and fine.... Who knows... past life maybe.... still.... I hope you guys can grow your own hard-to-get govt' controlled materials.... it would be awesome!!!

[EllisDTripp]

So if you were a chemistry-minded and educated individual who also owned and operated a privately owned rye-farm, as well as organically growing the rye under specific conditions... you could easily produce the ergot that you might need to make a glorious lil' substance that I only wish I had the right connections for...

Yep. That's the approach spelled out in "Practical LSD Manufacture" by Uncle Fester (Steve Preisler).

You STILL would need access to some heavily watched chemicals in order to make LSD, though. And starting from raw ergot is going to require LARGE quantities of solvents for separating the desired alkaloids from the plant material. There is also the problem that just any old wild strain of ergot may not contain a whole lot of the alkaloids you want. Sandoz worked for years to develop a strain that produced useful chemicals and would grow easily in culture.

[2cesarewild]

Yep. That's the approach spelled out in "Practical LSD Manufacture" by Uncle Fester (Steve Preisler).



Hah! And it has the word 'practical' in the title...

[lostblackdog]

So, there are other - easier ways to produce lsd? i mean, i've been envolved with some rather serious people in some different social situations, and they have mentioned some easy acid tricks, but i don't think they knew what the hell they were talking about at all.

Or is this honestly a substance that can be grown quite easily - in pieces or something, and then carefully mixed together...... This has got to be the most illusive drug throughout my life.... I wish I could find it. @ Oh Well......
Anyways.... i 've got things to do.... so how do you make acid for cheap? Ok..... GN

[EllisDTripp]

So, there are other - easier ways to produce lsd?

Easier than starting with wild ergot? Yes.

Most LSD is produced using purified ergotamine tartrate which has been diverted from the pharmaceutical industry. This saves the chemist all the work of culturing the fungus, extracting the alkaloids, and purifying them to get the desired compounds separated from everything else.

But since ergotamine tartrate is heavily watched and VERY expensive, I'm not sure that this constitutes an "easy" path to LSD.

[Maggie Sugar]

Is this the same as the drug ergomar? I am almost positive this is ergotamine tartrate. I used to take this for migraines, and in generic form, not only was it not a controlled drug, it was cheap as anything.

[gnrm23]

http://www.drugs.com/cons/Ergomar.html

[EllisDTripp]

That would be it, Maggie.

Ergomar is a mixture of ergotamine and caffeine. In the pill form, the stuff is completely uncontrolled, but trying to buy the raw chemical will attract a LOT of attention from the drug warriors. Each pill contains only a mg or 2 of ergotamine, so you would need a LOT of them to make an attempt at extraction worthwhile.

The major world supplier of ergot alkaloids is none other than Sandoz, Dr. Hofmann's old employer. :) Their product information page for ET is available at:

http://www.lek.si/eng/pharmaceutical-ingredients/ingredients/ergotamine-tartrate

[lostblackdog]

Hmmm.... I know I am but a pup compared to some of my chemically enhanced predecesors (and I mean that in the best way possible), but I find it hilarious the way that everytime I feel that the man has cut me off and locked me down.... somehow people of our similar persuassion end up controlling the doors that lead the way.... This, I think, is one of the greatest manifestations of the old axiom, "Where there's a will, there's a way..."

[Maggie Sugar]

I never took enough ergomar to feel anything but nausea. (it occasionally worked for the migraines, but not well.) But it makes you as sick as a dog. One time I actually took some acid when I was about 18 or 19, cuz I didn't have any Ergo with me. LOL. My thinking was "they are really similar chemically!" (Ah, the curse of being an overeducated child LOL....)

When I finally got home, hours later, the trip was winding down, so I still had the headache, and then I took the ergomar. Guess what? It kick started the trip again! I was up all night. (It was the first time I took acid, too, I was scared as shit! I didn't think I was ever going to come down....) :) I did, though. I think....

[sag aloo]

Ergot grows on da live plant - it's not mould - any mould on bread will b penicillin

[EllisDTripp]

Ergot grows on da live plant - it's not mould - any mould on bread will b penicillin

No, not ANY bread mold will be penicillin. But penicillin mold (Penicillum Notatum) is pretty common on bread...

[lostblackdog]

Yeah... that's something like what my brother and I discussed in Germany last summer. We both had the amazing misfortune of loosing our passports for a our weekend in Scotland, so instead we drove to Amsterdam from Bad Soden, Germany. What a time!!! All of the bread there is made without the crazy ass "American" preservatives like all the shit we get force-fed on a daily basis. I asked him if he know what a rye plant would look like, as well as how to find opium or even just generalized poppies, but I'm afraid my bro has only adventured as far as pot and not much else. I would love to get my hands on some acid one day because I think that I would begin to document my life by two terms: Before the acid took hold, and after the universe was revealed to me at whole. I'm so deeply rooted in greek, roman, neo-pagan, and many other metaphysical systems throughout eurasia and Africa, my college professors ( who I am fortunate to have as friends as well) they all tell me that the next step for me has to be acid... not shrooms... not pot (like that would be anything new at this point in the first place?) but no.... the think the drug I need to welcome is acid.... I only wish that I had connections in the acid world like I do in the real world on so many different connections. If there's anyone out there connected to Panic or acid and them as a band, holla at me some time and I promise to pay generously..... very generously.... I just haven't been able to meet my cousin Lucy, whom I feel as though I know her as well as myself, but I would GLADLY do ALL that is in my power to meet her some day... I have A LOT of power by the way, just ask, and I can hook you up man.... in the mean time, holla at your boy via pm if you seen my home girl- lucy.... peace...

[JayBird]

You need to be careful while making that stuff. When I was in the Navy, I knew this guy, a chemical whiz, who made his own, and ended up in the hospital. He spilled some on his hand, and it was apparently absorbed through the skin. In other words, a MASSIVE dose. After he got out of the psych ward his personality was shattered. He was eventually discharged from the military and sent home. I'm not sure if he ever totally recovered or not.