White non-muslim women wearing the Hijab? [Archive]

NiSh

08-19-2004, 04:04 PM

"Why do Muslim women wear the hijab?"
Eighteen year old Canadian Muslimah Sumayyah Hussein explains. (Followed by discussion points for young people.)

I am sitting in my first-period class impatiently waiting for the teacher to stop babbling about monomials and polynomials. When the bell rings, a girl approaches, her face forming a question mark. She wonders if it's okay to ask a "personal" question...

"Why do Muslim women wear the hijab?"

It's not the first time this has happened and it is certainly an issue that needs to be addressed.

One of the major misconceptions about the hijab (covering of the body except the face and hands) is that young women are forced to wear it by their parents or by male family members.

Sumayya Syed, 16, says that what parents or men want have nothing to do with it. In fact, she astounds people who ask by saying that every woman should have this form of liberation.

Syed maintains that when a woman is covered, men cannot judge her by her appearance but are forced to evaluate her by her personality, character, and morals. "I tell them that the hijab is not a responsibility, it's a right given to me by my Creator who knows us best. It's a benefit to me, so why not? It's something every woman should strive to get and should want."

The young woman admits to being surprised that many people wonder if she wears the hijab everywhere (at home, when sleeping, in the shower). The truth is that Muslim women only cover themselves in front of men who are not direct relatives (brothers, fathers, and uncles) to prevent indecent acts or thoughts.

Another young woman who wears the hijab, Zeinab Moallim, 18, maintains that some people assume that all Muslims who wear the traditional dress are immigrants who don't know English and perceive them as "weirdos".

"I remember in my class when I answer questions, some students look at me like I'm kind of dumb and I can't answer (them)," she says. "So usually I answer, just to let them know I can do things."

All of the young women interviewed agreed that the advantages of wearing the hijab are many. According to Rema Zawi, 16, "You feel modest...and you feel like you're covered up. You have more self-respect. You have more confidence in yourself that you don't need to care about (how) you look."

Syed emphasizes that a major plus is that people actually evaluate her on who she is and not on her beauty or clothing. "It keeps me protected from the fashion industry. The hijab liberates you from the media, brainwashing you into, Buy this, buy that, you're supposed to look like this," she says. "It allows me to be who I am. I don't have to worry about being popular through buying things that are 'cool'."

Hana Tariq, 15, who just recently began wearing the hijab, agrees with Syed's view and says that the hijab lets you know who your real friends are.

"People who are friends with you because of the way you look aren't real friends. And people who judge you by your personality are true friends, because people can change looks but they don't really change personalities."

The young women said the hijab provides them with an identity. They don't have to tell people they are Muslims. It shows.

However, there are drawbacks. Mariam Hussein, 18, was in a store minding her own business, when an old woman came up to her and proclaimed loudly, "Go back to your country!" It was a difficult situation because the young woman considers Canada her home.

Responses to the hijab vary widely. Zawi is one of the few Muslim girls in her school who wears the traditional Muslim garb. She says some students treat her differently by looking at her in strange ways or vandalizing her property. However, she also finds that other students have questions for her regarding the hijab.

"I find that it's so hard for them to ask because they're really shy, so I confront them. I tell them, If you want to know anything, just talk to me." One young woman's first year at Silverthorn Collegiate was especially difficult. A counsellor was looking at her English marks from previous report cards, and said she found them "impressive". But then she made a comment that hurt. "Well, it's obvious you don't need ESL," she said.

The counsellor made the assumption that since the young woman wore the hijab, she had just emigrated and needed to take English as a Second Language. Syed, who attends a school with a fairly large Muslim population, says the people she knows treat her with dignity and the comments she gets from friends and classmates are generally not disrespectful.

"Most people in my life respect me with my hijab: they don't swear around me, they don't crack bad jokes," she says.

Some people may think that the more a woman covers, the less freedom she has. But, according to Muslim tradition, it is actually the opposite. The less she wears, the more she is degraded and the more she is put in the line of fire of male criticism.

Syed is astonished at the behaviour of some women who claim to want "freedom". She can't understand how going topless, for example, represents equality. "People have to understand that we (males and females) are not equal in body image but we should be equal in rights, in justice. Taking off your shirt will not make you equal to a man; it'll make you lower. Why? Because the woman's body is created differently."

Amani Elkassabany, 30, who is not presently wearing the hijab, has a different view. She applauds those who wear the hijab (especially those who wear it for God and with good intentions), but feels that it is not necessary to wear the hijab to gain respect.

"Just because a woman covers, doesn't mean she is automatically entitled to respect, or has already proven the worth of her mind. Respect must be earned regardless of one's appearance and it is not earned through a dress code alone."

Elkassabany sees advantages to wearing the hijab, but thinks that having internal modesty is more important than external modesty. "This external covering is really just a reflection of an inner commitment to dedicate oneself to the worship of the Creator," she comments.

She is also concerned about the restraints wearing the hijab implies, restraints that are exclusive to women. "Both men and women are required to dedicate themselves to God, but it is only women who are expected to demonstrate this dedication outwardly in the form of hijab," she says. "This expectation on the part of [women] is what I find difficult to accept."

Whether the hijab constrains or liberates women is an ongoing debate. However, statistics reveal that in Western society, women and men are perceived very differently.

One study, done at the University of California, found that media photographs emphasize the faces of men but the bodies of women. In the average picture of a woman, less than half the photo (45%) was devoted to the woman's face. In the pictures of men, nearly two-thirds (65%) of the photograph featured the man's face.

The same article reports the results of an experiment conducted with a group of 40 male and 40 female college students. These students were told that a study of freehand drawing styles was under way and were assigned to draw either a man or a woman, capturing "the character of a real person." It was observed that the men drawn had very distinct features, with close attention paid to facial details. However, the images drawn of the women were mostly of the body, with the faces vague or even featureless.

Perhaps, as women de-emphasize their bodies, this severe imbalance will be at least partially rectified. Meanwhile, Islam provides a solution to this problem - one which dignifies and honours all women.

NiSh

08-19-2004, 04:46 PM

hi pple
i came across this web page by chance and well am so glad i did cos it reminded me of the bitter fact that there are many more jonnhy2mads around today...livin with their narrow minded and utterly sick assumtions...

anyway hi retrofishie! let me clear ur doubt first. i love to study abt the different religions..hinduism islam christian...and so on..and i believe that the knowledge i have of these religions will help me clear ur doubt...and of course to clear the misconceptions held by the pple in here....!

retrofishie its perfectly ok to don the hijab..and i understand that u are not a muslim..but its really ok...go ahead..no one will kick ur ass..and if the muslims do in the name of their religion trust me they dont know what their religions teaches them...cos its truly wrong to do that. also like what cosmic butterfly said many non muslim women around the world wear the headscarf as a fashion statement and no one have gotten their asses kicked as yet..i believe. In my ctry non muslims wear the headscarf and the non hindus wear the 'pottu' (the religious symbol that hindus wear on their forehead) and everyone is happy...with no ones ass bein kicked...i believe this due to the respect we have for one another..and for one another's faith...and of course am not at all sure if jonny2mad understands what i mean by RESPECT here for FAITH ..certainly callin any faith/religion nasty shows tat u dont respect it...likin and respectin are 2 dif issues...it doesn meant that if u dont like something u dont respect it. i think it immature..come on wats the dif between a 4 yrs old kid and us adults? THINK and lets pls grow up.

and i agree with u cosmic butterfly... jonny2mad is a nazi of ignorance...but anyway heck it there are just too many jonny2mads around nowadays so i am not really surprised.

anyway so wat made u have such a fear retrofishie? were u ever treated badly by any muslim? if u had any such bad experience i understand why u have such a fear..but let me assure u again..that these 'muslims' who act in such a manner are wrong and that they dont know wat their faith really teaches them...u should be able to draw the line between wats the truth..the reality..the true intended meanin of something and wat u see and hear(which might not be the truth..they are opinions and views) to form ur opinion u have to learn abt the thing first..and not just listen to some jonny2mad blabber ...anyway retrofishie i find it so interestin that u find hijab beautiful...especially since its often associated with oppression by pple like jonny2mad and also with terrorism.

jonny2mad..wateva made u have such assumptions abt muslim women bein forced to don the hijab..i dont know. yes i agree that in islamic ctry women are forced to do certain things...but then again lets not confuse rules in ctry with the intended meanin of any faith..there are also many muslim women who love the hijab..and they are not wearin it as fashion statement..and they are NOT forced..instead they wear it cos they love it...and this cos they know its meanin and they know its true beauty...so why not talk abt these women instead? why just see the women who seem forced to wear the hijab? i too pity them cos they dont get to see the true beauty of hijab as they are forced by their ctry to wear it...i know of many young muslim gals who love the hijab...these gals can choose to wear skirts and wear nice hair assessories when goin out with their frens..i mean which girl doesnt love to flaunt wat she has? but why do these gals choose to don the hijab? love. as simple as that...and oh yeah they come from modern families..and the men in their families didnt force this on them. it was their choice. so maybe u would like to talk abt this grp of pple..lets not be narrow minded and lets see the whole picture.

and jonny2mad u have NO rights to call any religion nasty. i think its really immature...for a min u sounded like an elementry sch kid claimin that all teachers are nasty becos they are strict...sheesh....i understand why u had death threats...if u go around makin such comments..anyone would get angry...try callin christianity or hinduism a nastry religion and see what happens to u..stop bein bais....and what do u know abt islam to make such a claim? i agree that all these terrorist are muslims ..but u cant judge a whole faith by the actions of some muslims. as far as i know no religion preaches violence...everyone comes from dif race and religion....and i think its crucial to respect pple ..everyone...be it a christain a jew or a muslim..respect them and their faith..this is impt to have peace...if u dont like that faith maybe then u should jus zip up instead of bein insensitive....maybe u said it with anger and hatred..and if u did so..wats then the dif between u and the terrorist beheadin the men...both are out of anger and hatred..both hurts and kills..so stop this! lets be sensitive.

io read the article abt "Why do Muslim women wear the hijab?"
i think its interestin....there are so many misconceptions abt islam and hijab...its okie if u want to be ignorant but dont shoot ur mouth in ignorance..know wat u are talkin abt before makin any claim

there are so many unpleasant things goin on around us..and at such a time i think its even more crucial for us to respect one another.

am sorry if i offended anyone..this is just my view

and oh yes i am a muslim. i don the hijab. no one forced it on me. it was my choice. i think its beautiful.

NiSh

08-21-2004, 05:19 AM

Hijab (Veil) and Muslim Women

Ms.Naheed Mustafa
"My body is my own business."

MULTICULTURAL VOICES

A Canadian-born Muslim woman has taken to wearing the traditional hijab scarf. It tends to make people see her as either a terrorist or a symbol of oppressed womanhood, but she finds the experience liberating. I often wonder whether people see me as a radical, fundamentalist Muslim terrorist packing an AK-47 assault rifle inside my jean jacket. Or may be they see me as the poster girl for oppressed womanhood everywhere. I'm not sure which it is.

I get the whole gamut of strange looks, stares, and covert glances. You see, I wear the hijab, a scarf that covers my head, neck, and throat. I do this because I am a Muslim woman who believes her body is her own private concern.

Young Muslim women are reclaiming the hijab, reinterpreting it in light of its original purpose -- to give back to women ultimate control of their own bodies.

The Qur'an teaches us that men and women are equal, that individuals should not be judged according to gender, beauty, wealth, or privilege. The only thing that makes one person better than another is her or his character.

Nonetheless, people have a difficult time relating to me. After all, I'm young, Canadian born and raised, university-educated -- why would I do this to myself, they ask.

Strangers speak to me in loud, slow English and often appear to be playing charades. They politely inquire how I like living in Canada and whether or not the cold bothers me. If I'm in the right mood, it can be very amusing.

But, why would I, a woman with all the advantages of a North American upbringing, suddenly, at 21, want to cover myself so that with the hijab and the other clothes I choose to wear, only my face and hands show?

Because it gives me freedom.

WOMEN are taught from early childhood that their worth is proportional to their attractiveness. We feel compelled to pursue abstract notions of beauty, half realizing that such a pursuit is futile.

When women reject this form of oppression, they face ridicule and contempt. Whether it's women who refuse to wear makeup or to shave their legs, or to expose their bodies, society, both men and women, have trouble dealing with them.

In the Western world, the hijab has come to symbolize either forced silence or radical, unconscionable militancy. Actually, it's neither. It is simply a woman's assertion that judgment of her physical person is to play no role whatsoever in social interaction.

Wearing the hijab has given me freedom from constant attention to my physical self. Because my appearance is not subjected to public scrutiny, my beauty, or perhaps lack of it, has been removed from the realm of what can legitimately be discussed.

No one knows whether my hair looks as if I just stepped out of a salon, whether or not I can pinch an inch, or even if I have unsightly stretch marks. And because no one knows, no one cares.

Feeling that one has to meet the impossible male standards of beauty is tiring and often humiliating. I should know, I spent my entire teen-age years trying to do it. It was a borderline bulimic and spent a lot of money I didn't have on potions and lotions in hopes of becoming the next Cindy Crawford.

The definition of beauty is ever-changing; waifish is good, waifish is bad, athletic is good -- sorry, athletic is bad. Narrow hips? Great. Narrow hips? Too bad.

Women are not going to achieve equality with the right to bear their breasts in public, as some people would like to have you believe. That would only make us party to our own objectification. True equality will be had only when women don't need to display themselves to get attention and won't need to defend their decision to keep their bodies to themselves.

Naheed Mustafa graduated from the University of Toronto in 1992 with an honours degree in political and history. She is currently studying journalism at Ryerson Polytechnic University

There are such pple around who love hijab...and these are the people who knows the meanin of HIJAB. If u dont know wat it really means..u have no rights to conderm it either.....it disgusts me that most pple think that showin half the breasts and exposin the legs and wateva is called FREEDOM shessh..talk abt bein narrow minded and ur pereption of freedom is wat can be defined as bein narrow minded.....and condermin without any real knowledge just shows ur own insecurities..and the ugliness in u.

tom

08-21-2004, 07:26 AM

All about freedom, eh? Then tell me, what would happen to a woman if she was to walk through the streets of Afghanistan, Pakistan, or Iraq while NOT wearing it?

Cosmic Butterfly

08-21-2004, 08:24 AM

Oh Tom, you need to get your facts straight and really know what is going on.

Iraq: Saddam was actually making Iraq a better country for women. He was fighting a bunch of evil Muslims similar to the Taliban. Now things are actually getting worse for Iraqi women. Did you know that there is actually Christians in Iraq?? Did you know that they and even Muslim women could walk the streets without the hijab. Things have changed for the worse, even the Christians must cover their hair.

Read this at least:http://www.occupationwatch.org/article.php?id=5909

http://http://www.occupationwatch.org/article.php?id=766

http://www.occupationwatch.org/article.php?id=6061

http://http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0613/p01s04-woiq.html

Im tired...Ill do Pakistan tomorrow. I actually know a Muslim family from Pakistan here in the valley. Im going to research their freedoms, and call them up. From what I remember Pakistani women are not all Muslims. You have different vedic based religions as well. Women are not forced into covering their hair. Ill find out for sure tomorrow.

NiSh

08-21-2004, 03:05 PM

tom pls get ur facts right....not all the women in pakistan wear the hijab i have been there and i know pple from there....pls stop makin assumptions....u are seein the meanin of freedom from a very very narrow minded way..

NiSh

08-21-2004, 03:28 PM

i think u have mixed up the RULES of a ctry with the real meanin of hijab and why women have to don it...although i am a muslim even i cant agree with most of the things some of the muslim ctry do...and there are many pple(muslims) like me around who feel the same...these rulers in the muslim ctry believe they know it all...and they misuse their authority...and implement what they think is right..and this creates a very very wrong impression of muslims and hijab..and of course our faith..Islam.

personally i think that u should look up and read some really relevant sources..and stop lookin at wats happenin around u to make judements..and as ur mommy says DONT JUDGE A BOOK BY ITS COVER.....there are black sheeps in every religion..and the black sheeps in islam are creatin the wrong impression of islam in everyway possible......the question u asked...abt what happens to a women who walks in the streets of wateva ctry u mentioned...even if they were stoned or beaten..i agree with u ITS WRONG..BUT THEN AGAIN THAT IS NOT WAT ISLAM TEACHES US..those are HUMANS..THE BLACK SHEEPS DOIN IT AND THEY ARE DOIN IT IN THE NAME OF ISLAM..WHICH IS EVEN WORSE....any good muslim will know there is NO COMPULSION IS ISLAM

the logic behind what i am sayin is very very simple tom.
i come from a ctry where i can freely practice islam..there is a Islamic Religious Council here in my ctry which actually guides us..and ensures that nothing comes in the way of our faith..and the muslims WHO PRACTICE ISLAM in my ctry are strong in their faith as much as any other muslim in any other part of the world...however not ALL THE MUSLIM WOMEN don the hijab..PLS NOTE THIS PT....some walk in the streets wearin heavy make up...tops with plungin neckline..mini skirts..which gets shorter day by day tube tops..and everythin else that reveals everythin that guys would love to see...the point i am tryin to make here is...if in Islam..like u say...women are forced to don the hijab..it would have been a BLANKET RULE..MEANIN IT WOULDNT DIFFER FROM CTRY TO CRTRY... in every ctry where there are muslims the women WILL be FORCED to don the hijab...the islamic religious council would have done something abt these muslim women who choose not to wear the hijab by now..u get me?? Hijab IS OUR CHOICE..its a GOD given right to us women..but we shouldnt be forced to don hijab by any tom dick or harry..but most muslim ctry force it on their women..and i def think this is not right..so pls understand the dif....and this is a MAJOR difference.

Cosmic Butterfly

08-21-2004, 07:29 PM

My mother is from Tunisia, and I go back almost every summer to visit my family. In Tunisia, Egypt, Libia, and Morocco women are not forced to wearing hijab. Actually most women don't wear hijab and they are Muslim. You dont get beat up in the streets, and you are free to do whatever you like. My female cousins are English Professors, one is a Marine Biologist, one is a Medical Doctor, and one is a Spanish Proffessor. They drive, they go out, and live a wonderful normal life. Last time I went, we went to the discoteque.

Im just getting so fed up with these silly American's who have never traveled to Arab countries, do not even know Arabs, pulling lies of the internet, and spreading ignorance and hate.

Johnny2Mad and Tom, what is your goal/ Do you want to continue seeing these people as cruel, and unjust monsters? There is Tom, as a Christian doing exactly what Christ had hoped that mankind would not do. Judge not, unless you wished to be judged. There is alot of wonderful people out there and they are not all Christians....

Here you are professing what you think you know about Islam. People that have actually been to those countries, and speak Arabic are telling you different. I personally have direct experience with Arabs, and Islam, and the truth is that Christians are no better than Muslims. They are all human, and they all feel love. Those both believe that God, and Satan(Shaitan) exist.

jonny2mad

08-24-2004, 11:56 AM

Ive lived in a islamic country my father is arabic speaking I have friends who are muslims and also ex muslims Im british not american

I dislike islam, in our conversations regarding islam you have shown that you really dont know that much about the religion as you disagreed that mohammed had sex with children made people slaves raped and tortured people .

I stated my sources which were all mainline islamic scripture
you were unable to find any scripture to disprove what I said
I think islam at its base is much worse than most people including most western muslims think.

I support a atheist site made up mainly of ex-muslims that puts the case that islam is a extreamly negitive dangerous religion, so far I have not seen a muslim put a good case that disproves what faithfreedom.org has to say.
I dont much like other religions but at the moment if you dislike religion islam is the most powerful target

most atheists seem to concentrate on attacking quite successfully christianity I think its time that islam is given the same treatment

what I suggest you do is go to iran or saudi or afghanistan and see if you can go to a disco and see whether you are beat-up for not wearing hijab or burka
there are islamic majority countrys like turkey which are kinda western but that doesnt mean that the religion itself is liberal just that its not that powerful in that country
there are islamists in most liberal countrys majority muslim countrys that wish to turn those countrys into something like saudi

I had lots of iranian friends before the revolution in iran and iran used to be very western and liberal the same thing that happened there could happen in the future elsewhere if the ideology is given a free ride because people are scared to be critical of a "religion "

BlackBillBlake

08-24-2004, 02:07 PM

A woman I know has converted to Islam, and now wears the hijab. It has meant her disregarding her own intelligence and knowledge, and the hijab just means she's regarded with suspicion by others. Recently, she gave me a book 'Introduction to know Islam' by Dr. Yusuf Al-Qaradwy. I read as far as page 2, where the good doctor claims that only Islam. Judaism and Christianity have any scriptures. This is simply untrue. So presumably the rest if the book, built on a false foundation, would be more un-truth. And they can't even find a translator capable of rendering the thing in decent english.

I also confronted her with the story of the Jews of Medina, who Muhammed had executed, and took part in the executions himself. This led only to a denial, and more stuff about how I can't be happy as a non-muslim.
Well - I am quite happy as a non-muslim, and I'm not prepared to accept what is lies and falsification, and an attitude that blithely accepts the facts of Muhammed's life despite the abuses.
To those who argue that in Islamic countries it is not compulsory for women to wear the hijab, I would like to say that in some countries Islam is not fully practiced - in Saudi Arabia I doubt it would be permitted, and Saudi is the birthplace of Islam. And even in Morocco, a very liberal muslim country, a white womwn I know told me how when she went out she had a bunch of children calling her names etc. because as a non-hijab wearer, she's thought of a simply a whore.

NiSh

08-24-2004, 06:27 PM

why am not surprised at wat i am readin here..anyway am not tellin u to ACCEPT Islam..this isnt my intention..neither am i here to promote islam...or debate which religion is the best and which needs to be critise..but i just want to remind u one thing...that is to RESPECT PEOPLE..and this means just being sensitive when it comes to issues such as religion..its okie i understand now that this is abit too much for u to comprehend...and oh yeah it doesn matter to me whether u are american or british...the impression u have created of me doesnt change..and its nice to know that u have lived in a islamic ctry and that ur dad speaks arab..and that u have many muslim and ex muslim frens...okie..now so wat?? this doesn given u the right to say insensitive things..and this doesnt mean even abit that u know abt Islam to even make the attempt to judge...am just so sad for u that u are still so ignorant...yeah did anyone say ignoranc is bliss? oh yes.go on.

"in our conversations regarding islam you have shown that you really dont know that much about the religion as you disagreed that mohammed had sex with children made people slaves raped and tortured people"

trust me..i do know wat i am doin...am still here cos i know wat it means...its okie if u dont..but pls stop assumin and blabberin in ignorance...cos at times or rather most of the time it shows the ugliness in u...am totally disgusted at what u said abt our Prophet...YES I DISAGREE WITH U TOTALLY...so..wat do u know abt him..?? heck it..there are just too many of u around...

hijab is not just meant for women....hijab was first meant for men...i doubt most pple know this...especially pple who critise hijab blindly

"Tell the believing men to lower their gaze, and protect their private parts. That is purer for them. Verily Allah is All-Aware of what they do. "
Surah An Nur Chapter 24 Verse 30

hijab for men was addresses first..and only later women were addressed.

anyway here is a very good source..by Zakir Naik (the link can be found in my next post.)..he is a marathon speaker and has done alot for islam...well known and respected by many in the islamic world...he is well know for the many debates on reliogion...and abt how islam and science goes hand in hand..and he is an expert in the field of comparative religion studies..so HE KNOWS WHAT HE SAYS..unlike most of us...readin articles from faithfreedom gets u nowhere in helpin to know abt a faith..come on..obviously its run by a bunch of pple who dont believe in faith...and how could u even believe wat they say abt any faith..cos they are THEIR VIEWS.. .and it just amuses me o much that u hold on so strongly to wat they claim abt islam rather than choosin to see for urself wat islam teaches before judgin it so harshly...anyway again i understand this too much for u....its much much more easier to just sit and read some articles at some faithfreedom website..and just wait ur ass away for some nice guy to come and rebut the whole thing?? heck...why dont u try to do somethin?i guess its too intelluctually challengin for u..

am not tryin to convince u anything..i dont think there is even a need for me to do that..cos as u are happy with wat u have and what u THINK u know....i am happy where i am and wat i have....and am just sooo sorry for the ex-muslims who regard islam as a negative and 'dangerous' religion..cant help but laugh at how they feel abt islam...cos well...i guess if life is abt dancin in discos drinkin in pubs...walkin around half naked ....bein judged by pple over and over again based on how u look...well if this is called freedom..if this is ur idea of freedom...I DONT WANT THIS FREEDOM..cos wat i have is much more than what YOUR FREEDOM can offer.thanks.

go on...hold on to ur pathetic misconceptions...go on feed ur anger and hatred..u are makin the world 'a better place'

NiSh

08-24-2004, 06:29 PM

this is the article i was referin to..
u can find it at http://www.drzakirnaik.com/pages/qanda/3.php

jonny2mad

08-24-2004, 08:19 PM

you accuse me of ignorance and say that I shouldnt tell you something that upsets muslims
I can back up what I say using islamic sources
if Im right Im doing you a favour by showing you you are following a fake and a man with very low morality
if Im wrong you or some islamic cleric can surely prove me wrong

and burying your head in the sand doesnt do anyone any good think of all the non-muslims who read this thread and my friend ali sinas site and get the wrong impression of islam because muslims are unable or unwilling to prove me or him wrong

the first thing we have to remember is that islamic scripture was written by muslims its pro muslim propoganda that makes the things that are negative about mohammed all the more damning

cabdirazzaq

08-24-2004, 08:40 PM

Even though I do not like it, the muslim countries today are being slightly americanized which means people are dropping the veil and disco foundations(and such) are being more available and so on. In this past summer I went to Syria(my first time) and I must say I saw something that amazed me, I saw a people who didn´t look like muslim, didn´t dress like muslim nor acted like ones. People in the streets of Damascus looked and even laughed at me for wearing proper islamic clothes(which is quite usual in Saudi) If you were to go to main town Damascus you would have to look around a bit before you see a veiled woman, in other areas the situation is quite different which pleases me alot(to know that the veil is still worn in Syria).

Say, "The truth is from your Lord": Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject (it): [Quran 018.029]

If they(the women) refuse to wear hijab in these countrires and rather dress in tight jeans and skirts. I will not point a gun to their head but let them(these supposed muslim women) try to find an excuse to the lord of the worlds(may he be exalted).

Tell My servants that I am indeed the Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful;

And that My Penalty will be indeed the most grievous Penalty.
[Quran 015.049-50]

NiSh

08-25-2004, 03:36 AM

" can back up what I say using islamic sources "

please..i would love that...but i hope that u meant the Quran or the Hadeeth when u said ISLAMIC SOURCES....or even if its any website..make sure its by well known islamic scholars etc..like Zakir Naik or Ahmed Deedat...i wouldnt bother readin thru if its from elsewhere..cos then i wouldnt even regard them as islamic sources.. they are just some views/critics written by some tom dick and harry..oh yes am sure i would be amused readin them but well i think i have much better things to do..so since u seem to be knowin wat u are talkin abt am sure it wouldnt be so hard for u to quote from the Quran and support ur claim....

"islamic scripture was written by muslims"

whoever told u it was 'written' by muslims? can u support this too....? it will be much appreciated.

jonny2mad

08-25-2004, 09:32 AM

quran and haddeth

Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3310: (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/008.smt.html#008.3310)
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64 (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/062.sbt.html#007.062.064)
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65 (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/062.sbt.html#007.062.065)
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that 'Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)." what you know of the Quran (by heart)'

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88 (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/062.sbt.html#007.062.088)
Narrated 'Ursa:
The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).

jonny2mad

08-25-2004, 09:37 AM

Sahih Bukhari 7.18 (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/062.sbt.html#007.062.018)
Narrated 'Ursa:
The Prophet asked Abu Bakr for 'Aisha's hand in marriage. Abu Bakr said "But I am your brother." The Prophet said, "You are my brother in Allah's religion and His Book, but she (Aisha) is lawful for me to marry
Sahih Bukhari 9.140
(http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/087.sbt.html#009.087.140)Narrated 'Aisha:
Allah's Apostle said to me, "You were shown to me twice (in my dream) before I married you. I saw an angel carrying you in a silken piece of cloth, and I said to him, 'Uncover (her),' and behold, it was you. I said (to myself), 'If this is from Allah, then it must happen.' Then you were shown to me, the angel carrying you in a silken piece of cloth, and I said (to him), 'Uncover (her), and behold, it was you. I said (to myself), 'If this is from Allah, then it must happen.'

Sahih Bukhari 5.236 (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/058.sbt.html#005.058.236).
Narrated Hisham's father:
Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old.

jonny2mad

08-25-2004, 09:42 AM

Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 73, Number 151 (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/073.sbt.html#008.073.151)
Narrated 'Aisha:
I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)

Sahih Bukhari 5.234 (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/058.sbt.html#005.058.234)
Narrated Aisha:
The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Allright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age

Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 41, Number 4915 (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/abudawud/041.sat.html#041.4915), also Number 4915 (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/abudawud/041.sat.html#041.4916) and Number 4915 (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/abudawud/041.sat.html#041.4917)
Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin:
The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) married me when I was seven or six. When we came to Medina, some women came. according to Bishr's version: Umm Ruman came to me when I was swinging. They took me, made me prepared and decorated me. I was then brought to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him), and he took up cohabitation with me when I was nine. She halted me at the door, and I burst into laughter

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 90 (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/062.sbt.html#007.062.090)
Narrated Aisha:
When the Prophet married me, my mother came to me and made me enter the house (of the Prophet) and nothing surprised me but the coming of Allah's Apostle to me in the forenoon
Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3311 (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/008.smt.html#008.3311)
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old.

jonny2mad

08-25-2004, 10:04 AM

all these as you know are mainline islamic sources

we have a man of 54 who dreams of a child of 6 or younger wrapped in silken cloth
then marrys her at six she is playing on a swing and with dolls she doesnt know whats happening as she says nothing was a bigger surprise than the prophet coming for her

if mohammed was alive today he would be in jail and in my country he would have to be kept seperate from the other criminals because they would try to kill him

is this the sort of actions thats god would choose for a prophet , are criminals wrong to beat up people who have sex with children ?
is it best practise for a man of 54 to marry a six year old mohammed died when aisha was 18 because mohammed made it a rule that his former wives were not allowed to remarry she lived the rest of her life alone

much of the most important haddeth comes from the accounts of aisha if you wish to dispute these haddeth thats fine by me because all that does is put in question everything else in haddeth especially the ones attributed to aisha

jonny2mad

08-25-2004, 10:08 AM

oh and when it says 9 years old its actually 8 and a 1/2 because at that period you had less days to the month than we have today

Sahih means that the haddith is (Sound). This name is given to the absolutely faultless hadith, in which there is no weakness either in the chain of transmission (Isnad) or in the text (Matn) and in which there is no tendency to contradict any established doctrine of Islam.

I will go on to the other points when you have had time to consider the peodophilia question

jujunisa

08-26-2004, 08:35 PM

hey johnny........mind what you say alright. if u dislike islam, just keep ur mouth shut. u don have to insult it. it doesn't take much time for me to insult u back. becoz of ppl like you, this world is not a safe place to live in. so what if u had lived in a muslim country, u had muslim friends or whatever reasons u give. what right do u have to criticise any religion. you said if prophet was in your country, they will jail him. i TELL you now, if you were in my country,they will jail u for slandering islam. you are only doing others favour, when u learn how to respect other religions and races. u are a free thinker, no wonder you don even know how to respect others! because you have no source to learn humanity. you have no life man. i know u are purposely making islam a debatable issue as you have already stated that your 'target' is islam.you have no qualification to rebuke anything. you have already viewed all religions from a negative aspect, so obviously whatever sources you take ur explanation from, you only take those which are for ur own convenience and even when u view it, you view it from negative point. the way u think is already wrong, of course the way you reason out will be wrong. i tell you i'm not qualified to answer your stupid questions but pose this to highly qualified islamic experts, i would tell u if they have any hope in you, they will answer you back the way that u will feel ashamed to face god again(provided you have any shame). if not, they will just ignore you. becoz it is no use explaining to a person like you who only wants to hold on to his views without any strong basis.don think they don have any evidences.just that ur brain has not developed yet to perceive anything they say. no one will take you as doing favour to them by just claiming that islam is a fake religion with your discriminating reasoning.in fact, i find you very pathetic including your friends who have fallen out their faith. all of you have chosen the wrong paths. when someone is asking about hijaab, you are waiting for the chance to attack islam. thanks for informing us what your goal is because now we know that you ppl are not sincere in finding out the truth. you people just want to criticise anything that you ppl hate by manipulating the facts and meanings. that is what u ppl are good at. go and do something more worthwhile.you keep harping on the hadith that prophet married aisha at her tender age. whats wrong with marrying someone at tender age especially when it could be acceptable at that period of time? those generations were different.if it was a crime at that time, they would have sentenced him at that time. even though he married her at young age, how did you know that she did not attain puberty at that time. the marriage was taken place with aisha's father pernission. did aisha herself come and tell you that she was forced into marriage? nothing in those hadiths show any disapproval for this kind of marriage. it is not as if he raped the gal without anyone's knowledge? please be more logical.it is only your own beliefs and negative thinking make you view those quotations in that way. go and find the real meaning behind those hadiths.i don wish to tell you even if i know.go and find out yourself if you are really sincere. go and seek a learned man and not any muslim you see.like how there is good ppl and bad ppl, there are gd muslims and bad muslims. when u want to learn maths you look for maths teacher, not maths student. likewise you should seek a learned man who knows abt islaam. not any tom, dick and harry u can find when they are only muslim in namesake and are still learning abt islam. anyway you make yourself look stupid by arguing back like that. not only that, you are the sick one who only thinks about the fact that he married her at a young age. all this is logical. you chose to to view it in a disgusting way. compared to you, i think everyone with their religion is better off. you, without religion, is behaving more like an animal. people with religion are living with humanity due to proper guidance. i can't help but write this way to an inconsiderate, disgusting,lame wild beast. hope ppl will not be brainwashed by all his stupid reasoning and start hating one another. let us all respect one another regardless of race, religion, nationality,colour. that is what all our religions have thought us. no religion has told us to humiliate another religion. so let work together to make this world a better place to live in. by the way he explain things, i'm sure you all agree that johnny is trying to prove the false to be true. first he targetted on christianity now he targets on islaam. he will still continue like this untill he changes. All we can wish is that god prevents more johnny to be turning up in the world.anyway nish..no use explaining things to this type of ppl. no matter what you say or do, this ppl will always view it in a negative, anti social way.johnny u better give respect, then only you will receive respect. try being nice to everyone and that is what u will get back. if you are nasty to others, ppl will of course be nasty to you. iif u really have any humanity, the next time you write something in this forum, you will write in such a way that it will not hurt anyone in anyway. if not, i'll leave this to other ppl in the forum to judge you. remember you will be judged by what you do. ...........SOMEBODY PLS GO AND TEACH THIS FELLA SOME MANNERS!!!

jujunisa

08-26-2004, 09:05 PM

another thing johnny.......you can question us.......and we may not give the answers that you will agree becuse you will never be satisfied with that. But you can't question god, it is his will and his wish that things have to been done in this way and this manner.you can't judge whether god's action is right or wrong. you must understand that whatever Prophet did, he did acc. to God's wish and by his order. he just simply carried out his orders. some of the things that prophet mohd. has or have done are simply the priviledges given to prophet by god. you failed to understand another part. how much the no. of priviledges god has given to his prophets is much less than the, he has given them more hardships and trials.read everything properly before you bombard like that. everything is predestined by god. thats why insulting prophet mohd s.a.w is like insulting god himself. insulting the prophet's actions is like insulting god's words. if that was the case, when adam made the mistake of eating the forbidden fruit,why did god made him a prophet? it is all for a reason. but prophet mohd. is not like that. he did not make any mistake and yet you are accusing him of something he isn't. even u wrote that, prophet saw two dreams, and in that dreams he saw aisha. these are signs of god to prophet that he will have to marry her. that is why he said, if this is Allah's will, it must happen. because no one can prevent what god has decided for us just like when our time comes, we cannot prevent our death. the same thing goes for all hadiths and islamic verses in quran. don ever misinterprete the meanings of these quotations on your own. find out the meaning from a reliable learned person. then only u will be convinced. when u ask ppl who are still learning abt islam, they will find it difficult to explain. obviously, you will not be convinced and u will continue insulting this way. so think abt what i say and change your approach.unless you are 100% sure of what u know, don say or write anything. thats all i've got to say. hope to see the change in you........change meaning to respect others of their religions not necessary you must accept them. just don hurl offending words will do. take care bro...

jonny2mad

08-26-2004, 09:48 PM

in much of the islamic world its illegal to point out that mohammed was a pedophile or a rapist or a torturer so no wonder you think so highly of him

" i TELL you now, if you were in my country,they will jail u for slandering islam."

slander is when you say things that are not true about someone, Ive not called mohammed a cannibal (which would be a nasty thing to be) because there is no evidence that he ever ate human flesh
if I said he was a cannibal that would be slander

I see no reason why I should not say the truth about someone just because he claimed to be a prophet

Ive been posting on faithfreedom.org for a couple of years I dont agree with everything on the site but so far no islamic expert as come along and disproved the basic points it brings up about mohammed

years ago I used to be very religous I was never a muslim, but I know what its like to believe in a prophet I actually met mine. what made me come to the conclusion that he was a fake was looking at scripture and seeing lower morality than I would expect from a god

I see the same thing in islamic scripture if you see worse ethics in a religion than you would normally follow its unlikely that the religion is from god

jujunisa

08-26-2004, 10:41 PM

why don u take a look at the phrases printed in green rather than focusing on the red ones.in actual fact, you are contradicting yourself by showing us these evidences. if you look at the sentence as a whole picture, then only u can see the real meaning of it. so far i've never seen anything that mention in these quotations that his actions are taboo to society or unacceptable or of any crime. they are also not subjected to any form of disapproval.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 73, Number 151 (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/073.sbt.html#008.073.151)
Narrated 'Aisha:
I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)

if he only viewed her as a sex object would he have let her played and let her play with her playmates. he was understanding and did not demand anything from her. also, look at the phrase at that time, if it was possible that dolls were allowed at that time but not now acc. to islam. isn't it possible that this marriage was accepted in the society at that time, and is only considered unpreferrable and unacceptable now.

Sahih Bukhari 9.140
(http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/087.sbt.html#009.087.140)Narrated 'Aisha:
Allah's Apostle said to me, "You were shown to me twice (in my dream) before I married you. I saw an angel carrying you in a silken piece of cloth, and I said to him, 'Uncover (her),' and behold, it was you. I said (to myself), 'If this is from Allah, then it must happen.' Then you were shown to me, the angel carrying you in a silken piece of cloth, and I said (to him), 'Uncover (her), and behold, it was you. I said (to myself), 'If this is from Allah, then it must happen.'

Allah's apostle only said that this must happen if that is from Allah. He did not marry her on his own accord. this just shows that he is obeying Allah's order and he wants and is eager to carry out HIS order whatever it is.

Sahih Bukhari 5.236 (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/058.sbt.html#005.058.236).
Narrated Hisham's father:
Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old.

in fact, he did not marry aisha soon after the death of his first wife. he went to Medina to recover from his loss. so many things happen during that period. If i'm not wrong, Aisha was gift to prophet to console him and so that his duty as prophet will not be affected. but the thing is he did not go abt finding for another spouse soon after his first wife death. and acc. to the previous hadith, it was the will of Allah that prophet was to marry Aisha(ra).

Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 73, Number 151 (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/073.sbt.html#008.073.151)
Narrated 'Aisha:
I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)

once again, he did not oppose aisha of playing toys with her playmates. he encouraged them to play.

jujunisa

08-26-2004, 10:43 PM

Sahih Bukhari 5.234 (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/058.sbt.html#005.058.234)
Narrated Aisha:
The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Allright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age

this shows that this kind of marriages was acceptable at that period of time and is indicated clearly by the women wishing aisha with Allah's blessing and good luck. if it was a taboo issue, you wouldn't have seen these women greeting her in this manner. they would have oppossed it.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 90 (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/062.sbt.html#007.062.090)
Narrated Aisha:
When the Prophet married me, my mother came to me and made me enter the house (of the Prophet) and nothing surprised me but the coming of Allah's Apostle to me in the forenoon

she was surprised not shocked!!! surprised is in a happy way, pleasant way not in a frightening way.

Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 41, Number 4915 (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/abudawud/041.sat.html#041.4915), also Number 4915 (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/abudawud/041.sat.html#041.4916) and Number 4915 (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/abudawud/041.sat.html#041.4917)
Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin:
The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) married me when I was seven or six. When we came to Medina, some women came. according to Bishr's version: Umm Ruman came to me when I was swinging. They took me, made me prepared and decorated me. I was then brought to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him), and he took up cohabitation with me when I was nine. She halted me at the door, and I burst into laughter

there you see, she was not forced into marriage. she was happy all along even after her marriage. if u find these hadiths by aisha to be sound, then u have to agree that, if she could write so much info abt prophet and her, then she should also could have expreseed any dislike, opposition,or even slight discomfort in her marriage to the prophet. in contrary, she was delighted.

Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin:
The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) married me when I was seven or six. When we came to Medina, some women came. according to Bishr's version: Umm Ruman came to me when I was swinging. They took me, made me prepared and decorated me. I was then brought to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him), and he took up cohabitation with me when I was nine. She halted me at the door, and I burst into laughter

Prophet s.a.w married Aisha r.a when she was 6 or 7, he only cohabit with her or consummate the marriage with her when she was 9. this shows that there was some grace time for Aisha and Prophet to get used to each other, to feel comfortable with each other and to be prepared for marriage life. if he wished, to exploit her, why wait for 3 yrs? think abt it.

Sahih Bukhari 7.18 (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/062.sbt.html#007.062.018)
Narrated 'Ursa:
The Prophet asked Abu Bakr for 'Aisha's hand in marriage. Abu Bakr said "But I am your brother." The Prophet said, "You are my brother in Allah's religion and His Book, but she (Aisha) is lawful for me to marry

Prophet mohd. s.a.w asked Abu Bakr for his daughter hand after Allah has willed it as we have seen in the hadith before. Abu Bakr was confused whether of prophet's sudden proposal.Presumably, Prophet has also indicated that Abu bakr is his brother. Acc. to islam, one is not allowed to marry his brother's daughter. thats why abu bakr asked him that qtn. prophet has already explained that he is not his brother by blood but in islam. therefore, he explained that it is also lawful for him to marry Aisha since he is not her uncle by blood. Muslims regard their fellow muslims as brothers and sisters (in islam). that does not mean that they are related by blood(born of the same mum).therefore, when it comes to marriage, they are free to select their spouse. other than their spouse, family and realtives, strangers but muslims are considered brothers and sisters in islam. if Aisha was not lawful in the first place, Allah will not have accepted the marriage. After the explanation, Abu bakr agreed w/o any hesitation to give his daughter in marriage to the Prophet.

so this marriage of Prophet and Aisha was valid, made lawful by Allah, and was accepted by Prophet, Aishah, both their families and by the muslim community,society and country.

jujunisa

08-26-2004, 11:20 PM

"slander is when you say things that are not true about someone ", yes and it is true in your sense. You have made baseless accusations of prophet.there is absolutely NO TRUTH in it You don even know what is the meaning of pedophile or a rapist or a torturer. You have NO valid evidences to prove that. I can’t take your opinion of the hadiths to be valid. So why must I accept what you say when your evidences are vague. A person is guilty when he is proven guilty. So far in the evidences you have given, there is nothing convincing enough for mr to believe you. Nothing to indicate that prophet was of low morality. He was never of a low morality. If you were to say that, you are finding fault with God choosing him to be the representative of mankind. how can that be? You are not greater than God. You can’t make better judgement than God.

Rememeber what you say….”what made me come to the conclusion that he was a fake was looking at scripture and seeing lower morality than I would expect from a god” so you are equating prophet to god which is wrong already. So ur understanding of prophet is already wrong. All muslims agree that prophet is just a man like any other mankind. The only difference between him and us is that, Allah has chosen him to be the prophet to spread islam. If god himself has appointed him, he must be of high morality.God had perfected him. Prophet is nothing like you said. So far, I’ve never seen any flaw in his character, he is one of the best mankind one can ever see and you are saying this kind of things based on your misinterpreted meanings of the hadith. Obviously, I would think highly of him.

If it is illegal to pin point any prophet’s mistake in that Islamic country, yes of couse because you have no basis and it is rude and also insulting to them. If ppl can press charge against you for slandering them, why can’t these muslims press charges against you for slandering Prophet Muhd.saw. if you had said that prophet had made mistake, it is different thing..it is like saying you have made a mistake. Ppl don press charges against you for saying that but they do press charges for slandering. And what you have been writing and thinking and saying is slandering. furthermore, you did that in a rude, insulting, hurting way. Of coz ppl wouldn’t be pleased with you. Do u like it when someone insult ur mum? Muslims put Prophet Muhd. S.a.w. at a higher positions than their mum. So how do u think they might react to your slander. I tell you once again. You’ve not pinpointed any truth in what you are saying. So don go ard slandering… you will be answerable to all your actions one day!

jonny2mad

08-27-2004, 04:39 PM

if you look in the koran its says that mohammed is

068.004
YUSUFALI: And thou (standest) on an exalted standard of character.
PICKTHAL: And lo! thou art of a tremendous nature.
SHAKIR: And most surely you conform (yourself) to sublime morality

033.021
YUSUFALI: Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah.
PICKTHAL: Verily in the messenger of Allah ye have a good example for him who looketh unto Allah and the Last Day, and remembereth Allah much.
SHAKIR: Certainly you have in the Messenger of Allah an excellent exemplar for him who hopes in Allah and the latter day and remembers Allah much.

the koran says mohammed is someone of sublime morality , a beautiful pattern a example an exalted standard of character

we have a problem either its ok for 54 year old men to marry 6 year olds and thats not just 1400 years ago thats today because the koran says mohammed is a beautiful pattern that hes someone of sublime morality hes an example

it doesnt say this is a one off thing that its ok for mohammed to marry 6 year olds or keep and make people slaves which he also did and then at a certain period of time we shouldnt follow his sublime example

NiSh

08-27-2004, 05:26 PM

to jonny2mad..
why the heck do u keep sayin our Prophet...
"had sex with children"???
are criminals wrong to beat up people who have sex with children ?
he didnt have sex with CHILDREN for goodness sake..stop utterin rubbish..it was HIS WIFE..she ACCEPTED HIM...and EVERYONE ACCEPTED the marriage....all the quotes u have presented only states the age of Aisha...okie yes thats true he married her at that young age..but it was at ALLAH's order and WILL..he had the dream of her being handed over to him 3 times and only after this he proposed to her...and it was accepted..and they married..if he is wat u claim he is...he wudnt have waited til he had that dream....and i hate to say this..but if he is wat u claim he is..then there wud be evidences that he had sex with other CHILDREN..but WHERE THE HELL IS THAT??????? pls don waste time lookin for someting that is false when the truth is starin at ur face jonny...get a life.

she doesnt know whats happening as she says nothing was a bigger surprise than the prophet coming for her
ITS SURPRISE..NOT SHOCK..SHE WASNT AGAINST IT. any there are many many evidences that the Prophet played with her..like anyone wud with a little child. and he allowed her to get comfortable with him...

"in much of the islamic world its illegal to point out that mohammed was a pedophile or a rapist or a torturer so no wonder you think so highly of him"

what do u mean by PINPOINT that Mohammed (SAW) was a PEDOPHILE???? do u have evidence for this? do u even know wat pedophile means?

Defination of pedodhile : psychosexual disorder in which an adult's arousal and sexual gratification occur primarily through sexual contact with prepubescent children. The typical pedophile is unable to find satisfaction in an adult sexual relationship and may have low self-esteem, seeing sexual activity with a child as less threatening than that with an adult."
Encyclopedia Britannica, 1998

OR
"pe.do.phil.ia n [NL] (1906): sexual perversion in which children are the preferred sexual object -- pe.do.phil.i.ac or pe.do.phil.ic adj."
Merriam Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary

The diagnostic criteria for pedophilia according to American Psychiatric Association: Over a period of at least 6 months, recurrent intense sexual urges and sexual arousing fantasies involving sexual activity with a prepubescent child or children. 

The person has acted on these urges, or is markedly distressed by them.
The person is at least 16 years old and at least 5 years older than the child or children in A.

DSM-III-R Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, ed 3, revised, copyright American Psychiatric Association.

"In addition to their pedophilia, a significant number of pedophiles are concomitantly or have previously been involved in exhibitionism, voyeurism, or rape". (Voyeurism’s the recurrent preoccupation with fantasized or acts that involve seeking out or observing people who are naked, or are engaged in grooming or in sexual activity".

Synopsis of psychiatry, Harold I.Kaplan et al., 5th ed., pg360, Publishers: Williams and Wilkens, 1988

now u all u have to do is see if our Prophet (SAW) fits with the above criteria..i will help u with this..

With the above criteria of a pedophile in mind, lets analyze the lifestyle of the prophet and his marriages.

these are the names of Prophet's (SAW) wives...in brackets is the age they married and their 'status' then.
Name of Bride
Khadija bint khawilad (40)-->Twice widowed before
Sauda Bint Zama (50)-->Widow
Aisha bint Abu Bakr (9)-->Started living with the prophet at the age of 9.
Hafsa Bint Umar bin Khattab (22)--> Widow
Zainab bint Khuzaima(30)
Umm-I-Salma bint Abu Umayia(26)--->Widow
Zainab Bint Jahash (38)-->Widow
Juwaeria Bint Harith(20)-->Widow
Umm-I-Habiba bint Abu Sufyan(36)-->Widow
Marya Qibtiya bint shamun(17)-->Virgin, Egyptian
Safia bint Hayi bin Akhtab(17)-->Widow
Raihana bint umru bin hanafa
Maimuna bint harith(36)-->Widow

WidowSource: The Prophet of Islam, the Ideal Husband, by Syed Abu Zafar Zain, Kazi Publications, Lahore, Ist Ed., pg. 10-12

Statistics from the above table:

Percentage of his wives who were 17years and older = 91 % Percentage of his wives who were widows = 75%

NiSh

08-27-2004, 05:27 PM

so jonny2mad please think...am sure this makes sense..and should make sense to u...cos the statistics show that the prophet’s marriage to Aisha at her young age was an exception and not a norm of his other marriages. Furthermore ‘a pedophile’s main mode of sexual satisfaction is with prepubescent girls’, which is contradictory to the 91% of prophet’s marriage to women 17 years and over. An unbiased examination of Prophet’s life and his marriages to his wives blatantly rejects the notion of his lifestyle fitting that of a pedophile. All his brides were aged widows (except Aisha and Marium).

Moreover, according to the criteria in the references cited above in ‘Synopsis of Psychiatry’, a vast majority of pedophiles possess a history of exhibitionism, voyeurism, or rape. Again, there is no single reference from either religious or secular sources that the noble Prophet ever indulged in such sadistic behavior (God forbid). This truth is observed and accepted by both Muslims and unbiased non-Muslims scholars.

"It is impossible for anyone who studies the life and character of the great Prophet of Arabia, who knows how he taught and how he lived, to feel anything but reverence for that mighty Prophet, one of the great messengers of the Supreme. And although in what I put to you I shall say many things which may be familiar to many, yet I myself feel whenever I re-read them, a new way of admiration, a new sense of reverence for that mighty Arabian teacher."

– Annie Besant, THE LIFE AND TEACHINGS OF MUHAMMAD, Madras, 1932, p. 4
so now tell me...is wat u said still valid???? u quoted from the hadeeth but then again wat u said abt him is UR VIEW...ur NEGATIVE view...cos the quotes u have presented shows no evidene of our Prophet(SAW) as a pedophile..and he didnt have sex with CHILDREN..it was HIS WIFE..whome he married with the consent of her father..and the marriage was accepted by everyone...in the society ..and so how can u even say its RAPE???? rape is when a man has sex with a women without her consent..i know ur adj and vocab use is good but this doesn license u to acuse anyone..in any manner...and oh well bein a free thinker and havin the view that islam should be the NEXT target that has to critised...well it just explains why ur claims are darn vague...without a good base..without a solid explanation...

thanks for the various quotes..but like wat jujunisha said u are contradictin ur own claims...i think i dont have to repeat all that she said..u can take ur time readin them...and oh yeah u can take ur time to explain to me why Prophet Muhammed (SAW) is a torturer...

anywayi wudnt be surprised if u claim that our Prophet (SAW) was involved in child abuse as well..

Definition of Child Abuse: Child Abuse, also called CRUELTY TO CHILDREN, the willful and unjustifiable infliction of pain and suffering on children. The term can denote the use of inordinate physical violence; unjustifiable verbal abuse; the failure to furnish proper shelter, nourishment, medical treatment, or emotional support; incest; other cases of sexual molestation or rape; and the making of child pornography. Frequently described by the medical profession as the "battered-child syndrome," abusive treatment of children is almost universally proscribed by criminal statutes. Child abuse can have serious future consequences for the victims involved. Delays in physical growth, impaired language and cognitive abilities, and problems in personality development, learning, and behavior are common following instances of child abuse or neglect.

Encyclopedia Britannica, 1998
None of the criteria of child-abuse applies to the noble life of the Prophet (pbuh). There is no single incident of any infliction of pain and suffering by the prophet on Aisha or any other human being for that matter. Neither any instance of verbal or sexual abuse can be concluded from the relationship of the prophet with Aisha ® or any of his wives.

An abused child can have serious future consequences…delayed physical growth, impaired language..learning and behavior…etc (above definition). As one examines the chaste life of Aisha ®, her personality, physical, mental and spiritual development are all contrary to that of an abused child. In fact through the Prophet’s marriage and his guidance to Aisha, history testifies that she should be labeled not as an abused child but as a ‘blessed child’.

The Prophet (SAW) married Aisha for 3 reasons:To reinforce the friendly relations already existing with Abu Bakr (his closest companion). 

To educate and train Aisha so she may serve the purposes of Islam.
To teach her to utilize her capabilities for the sake of Islam.
Her Marriage with the prophet was a Wahi (Divine Revelation). She, herself relates from the Prophet, ‘He said, "I saw you in dreams three times. The angel brought you to me and you were clad in white silk. He (the angel) said that it was your consort and he (angel) showed me by opening your face. You are just like that…" Sahih Muslim, Vol.2, p.285.

(please note this was told by Aisha...this shows that she was totally okie with the marriage....she was NOT against it...)

NiSh

08-27-2004, 05:46 PM

Aisha was born after her parents had embraced Islam. Therefore, she was free from the defilement of polytheism right from her birth.

In her youth, already known for her striking beauty and her formidable memory, she came under the loving care and attention of the Prophet himself. As his wife and close companion she acquired from him knowledge and insight such as no woman has ever acquired.

Aishah lived on almost fifty years after the passing away of the Prophet. She had been his wife for a decade. Much of this time was spent in learning and acquiring knowledge of the two most important sources of God's guidance, the Quran and the Sunnah of His Prophet. Aishah was one of the three wives (the other two being Hafsa and Umm Salamah ) who memorized the Revelation. Like Hafsa , she had her own script of the Quran written after the Prophet had died.

So far as the Hadith or sayings of the Prophet is concerned, Aishah is one of four persons (the others being Abu Hurrah, Abdullah ibn Umar, and Ana ibn Malik) who transmitted more than two thousand sayings. From her, 2210 Hadith have come, out of which 174 Hadith are commonly agreed upon by both Bukhari and Muslim. Many of her transmissions pertain to some of the most intimate aspects of personal behavior which only someone in Aishah’s position could have learnt.

(Allah has a reason for everthing...everything happens accordin to HIS WILL...and its not for anyone to JUDGE...the marriage of the Prophet was also ALLAH's WILL)

What is most important is that her knowledge of Hadith was passed on in written form by at least three persons including her nephew Urwah who became one of the greatest scholars among the generation after the Companions. It is the claim of the Scholars of Islam that without her, half of the Ilm-I-Hadith [knowledge, understanding of the Hadith (and Islam)] would have perished.

Many of the learned companions of the Prophet and their followers benefited from Aishah's knowledge. Abu Musa al-Ashari once said: "If we companions of the Messenger of God had any difficulty on a matter, we asked Aisha about it."

"Yahya related to me from Malik from Yahya ibn Said from Said ibn al-Musayyab that Abu Musa al-Ashari came to Aishah, the wife of the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, and said to her, "The disagreement of the companions in a matter which I hate to bring before you has distressed me." She said, "What is that? You did not ask your mother about it, so ask me." He said, "A man penetrates his wife, but becomes listless and does not ejaculate. "She said, "When the circumcised part passes the circumcised part ghusl is obligatory." Abu Musa added, "I shall never ask anyone about this after you."

Al-Muwatta of Imam Malik Hadith 2.75

Arwa Bin Zubair says, "I did not find anyone more proficient (than Aisha ) in the knowledge of the Holy Quran, the Commandments of Halal (lawful) and Haram (prohibited), Ilmul-Ansab and Arabic poetry. That is why, even senior companions of the Prophet used to consult Aisha in resolving intricate issued".

Jala-ul-Afham by Ibn Qaiyem and Ibn Sa’ad, Vol.2, p.26

Abu Musa al-Ashari says: "Never had we (the companions) had any difficulty for the solution of which we approached Aisha and did not get some useful information from her".

Sirat-I-Aisha, on the authority of Trimidhi, pg. 163

As a teacher she had a clear and persuasive manner of speech and her power of oratory has been described in superlative terms by al-Ahnaf who said: "I have heard speeches of Abu Bakr and Umar, Uthman and Ali and the Khulafa up to this day, but I have not heard speech more persuasive and more beautiful from the mouth of any person than from the mouth of Aishah."

The Prophet said, "The superiority of 'Aisha to other ladies is like the superiority of Tharid (i.e. meat and bread dish) to other meals. Many men reached the level of perfection, but no woman reached such a level except Mary, the daughter of Imran and Asia, the wife of Pharaoh."

Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith, Narrated by Abu Musa Al Ashari Hadith 4.643

Musa Ibn Talha says, "I did not see anyone more eloquent than Aisha"

Mustadrak of Hakim, Vol.4,p.11

Men and women came from far and wide to benefit from her knowledge.

Aisha’s great interest in the study of the Qur’an is understandable. She was an eye-witness to a number of revelations and had therefore a clear idea of the circumstances in which they were revealed. It was on her bed alone (and no other consort’s) that the Prophet received Wahi (Divine Revelations) several times. This helped her in interpreting the verses.

At the time of the Prophet’s death, the Prophet’s head was on her lap. It was in her quarters that the Prophet was buried.

The life of Aishah (R) is a proof that a woman can be far more learned
than men and that she can be the teacher of scholars and experts.

(can u give me a better example in life where a women is portrayed lilke this..and mind u this was yrs back when women were treated like dirt in the kitchen..islam the religion which gave Aisha with this opportunity to acquire knowledge is said/claimed to be oppressin women!! THIS IS A GREAT CONTRADICTION..i dont wish to point out but there are other religion that still treat women like shit...but oh yeah oppression to u mean donnin the hijab.. now pple are more concerned abt how muslim women have to don the hijab and not walk around half naked ..heck..ur notion of freedom amazes me greatly)

Her life is also a proof that a woman can exert influence over men and women and provide them with inspiration and leadership. Aisha (R) is a continuing inspiration and role model to today’s youth who are diligently searching for an example amongst the pop stars, movie actresses and sports stars. May the memory of her’s live forever in the heart of the Muslim Ummah and may Allah grant her the highest abode in Paradise…Aameen.

It was the aforementioned qualities of Aisha and the Prophet’s guidance in molding these capabilities for the service of Islam, were the main reasons, why the Prophet Married young Aisha , and not the perverted reasons brought forth by misguided orientalists.

Muslims invite all sincere humans to study the life of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon) in the light of the authentic sources of the Quran and the Sunnah (exemplary sayings and deeds of the Prophet) and judge for themselves where the truth lies. Indeed, by recognizing the truth of Islam as the final and complete Guidance sent by our Creator can humanity find lasting peace in this world and a means of salvation from the hell fire in the hereafter.

"I have studied him - the wonderful man and in my opinion far from being an anti-Christ, he must be called the Savior of Humanity. I believe that if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world, he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring it the much needed peace and happiness: I have prophesied about the faith of Muhammad that it would be acceptable to the Europe of tomorrow as it is beginning to be acceptable to the Europe of today."

George Bernard Shaw, THE GENUINE ISLAM, Vol. 1, No. 81936.

Though, the Prophet is not among us in his flesh, but his exemplary life has been preserved for all humanity to follow.

NiSh

08-27-2004, 05:46 PM

not only this jonny2mad but the weekly News magazine TIME dated july 15 1974 carried a selection of opinions by various historians writers militry men businessmen and others on the subject:WHO WERE THE HISTORY'S GREAT LEADERS?" some said that it was hitler others said Gandhi Buddha Lincoln and the like. But Jules Masserman a United States psychoanalyst put the standards striaght by giving the correct criteria wherewith to judge. he said:

Leaders must fulfil 3 functions:

1. provide for the well being of the led

2. provide a social organization in which people feel relatively secure and

3. provide them with one set of beliefs.

with the above criteria he searched history and analyses- hitler pasteur caesar moses confucius and the lot and ultimately concludes...

"PEOPLE LIKE PASTEUR AND SALK ARE LEADERS IN THE FIRST SENSE. PEOPLE LIKE GANDHI AND CONFUCIUS ON THE ONE HAND AND ALEXANDRA CAESAR AND HITLER ON THE OTHER HAND ARE LEADERS IN THE SECOND AND PERHAPS THIRD SENSE. JESUS AND BUDDHA BELONG IN THE THIRD CATEGORY ALONE.PERHARPS THE GREATEST LEADER OF ALL TIMES WAS MOHAMMED WHO COMBINED ALL THREE FUNCTIONS..."

"showing you you are following a fake and a man with very low morality"

this is NOT a man with very low morality..ur are totally blinded and well wat can i say?

i dont need some pple from faithfreedom to give me the credit for bein a muslim and acceptin Prophet as my role model..i have much better pple..with better knowledge..provin me that i am on the right path.

"think of all the non-muslims who read this thread and my friend ali sinas site and get the wrong impression of islam because muslims are unable or unwilling to prove me or him wrong"

well jonny2mad i hope ur dear frens from the ali sinas site would read this..and well if u think that NO MUSLIMS are UNABLE to prove u wrong u are darn wrong..well this just makes me wonder who u have been talkin to..but i know one thing u have not been talkin to the RIGHT people and i am WILLIN to prove u wrong and there are many pple like me around...like wat jujunisha said..its very simple..if u want to learn maths u go to a maths teacher..likewise..u want to learn abt islam..u go to reliable sources..a learnt man..and Quran cant be read just like that....there a multiple meanings to it...u are no one to judge it...cos u dont have the knowledge..its as simple as that.

NiSh

08-27-2004, 06:03 PM

jujunisa

08-27-2004, 08:26 PM

Never Argue With An Idiot, They Drag You Down To Their Level Then Beat You With Experience

jujunisa

08-27-2004, 08:29 PM

Dear All
FAKE QURAN ON THE INTERNET!!! ISRAEILS PRODUCING NEW QURAN ON INTERNET..
PLEASE AS MUCH AS YOU CAN ,SEND THIS MESSAGE TO THE MUSLIMS YOU KNOW
Dear Muslim brothers/sisters,
BE CAREFUL! Certain anti-Islam groups are trying to produce a new Qur'aan!!
Please read this e-mail and pass on. Some enemies of Islam have established
an on-line Qur'aan Surah with addition of some self-written SURAH; examples
can be seen on the web site on the Internet shown below). It's very
dangerous for the Muslim world, especially for the newly converted Muslims
or the Muslims who don't know FALSE and Bad material. Kindly send this
message (with the web sites shown below) to inform as many persons as you
can.
1) One of the sites as an example of their Qur'aan is:
http://dialspace.dial.pipex.com/town/park/geq96/original (http://64.4.43.250/cgi-bin/linkrd?_lang=EN&lah=e12d17aa586dce9340c0aed11941be92&lat=1085264850&hm___action=http%3a%2f%2f64%2e4%2e36%2e250%2fcgi%2 dbin%2flinkrd%3f_lang%3dEN%26amp%3blah%3d5d6701d7b 4993b5face7b0b3376c7a89%26amp%3blat%3d1083791557%2 6amp%3bhm___action%3dhttp%253a%252f%252f65%252e54% 252e187%252e250%252fcgi%252dbin%252flinkrd%253f_la ng%253dEN%2526amp%253blah%253d0196f5d07bab5c5bd8c2 2a0370ffebf6%2526amp%253blat%253d1082720027%2526am p%253bhm___action%253dhttp%25253a%25252f%25252fdia lspace%25252edial%25252epipex%25252ecom%25252ftown %25252fpark%25252fgeq96%25252foriginal)
THOSE WHO READ THE QUR'AAN AND UNDERSTAND THE ARABIC LANGUAGE CAN EASILY
MAKE OUT THE DIFFERENCE.
2) There is another site that has been launched by the Israelis;
http://www.thequran.com (http://64.4.43.250/cgi-bin/linkrd?_lang=EN&lah=9278cb91dda898f64dc96731892c653c&lat=1085264850&hm___action=http%3a%2f%2f64%2e4%2e36%2e250%2fcgi%2 dbin%2flinkrd%3f_lang%3dEN%26amp%3blah%3daa3eae6a1 6c080c527bb0324c2ffed43%26amp%3blat%3d1083791557%2 6amp%3bhm___action%3dhttp%253a%252f%252f65%252e54% 252e187%252e250%252fcgi%252dbin%252flinkrd%253f_la ng%253dEN%2526amp%253blah%253d7705cb471f0be5a48fa7 233d141dab98%2526amp%253blat%253d1082720027%2526am p%253bhm___action%253dhttp%25253a%25252f%25252fwww %25252ethequran%25252ecom)
(check out this one, how organized jews are against Muslim, wake up Muslims)
NOTE: especially site # 1 in sura they call it (surat Musilimoon) which is
NOT in the Holy Qur'aan.
Plz forward it to all the Muslims For The Sake Of Security of Our Imaan..

We are trying to stop these websites...... plz help us in this cause.

NiSh

08-28-2004, 02:23 PM

"the koran says mohammed is someone of sublime morality , a beautiful pattern a example an exalted standard of character"

yes this is indeed true....Prophet Muhammed (SAW) is our role model..the best example..and an exalted standard character. He was actually a superhero for his unimpeachable character a man who could settle the arguments and disputes between tribes ,unite them together and raise them out of the lethargy and low level of tribal stagnation up to the high.
It was the rigid simplicity, the utter self-effacement of Mohammed scrupulous regard for pledges, his intense devotion to his friends and followers, his intrepidity, his fearlessness, his absolute trust in good that made him succeed
He was the most faithful protector of those he protected, the sweetest and most agreeable in conversation. Those who saw him were suddenly filled with reverence; those who came near him loved him; they who described him would say, "I have never seen his like either before or after." He was of great taciturnity, but when he spoke it was with emphasis and deliberation, and no one could forget what he said. So great was his liberality to the poor that he often left his household unprovided, nor did he content himself with relieving their wants, he entered into conversation with them, and expressed a warm sympathy for their sufferings. He was a firm friend and a faithful ally. One of the most features of Mohammed's mission was adoption of freedom especially freedom of religions he guaranteed by the Qur'an,The legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myths that historians have ever repeated.Mohammed was telling his followers during conquers and wars to respect all crops and cattle and non-combatants and not to kill chaplains not to force peoples to get in Islam and not to punish even rulers who transgressed the sacred law. The world is as it is today regarding the wars,starvation,killing,raping because no one is welling to lead and guide the world to the site where it’s benefits,happiness and justice as Mohammed did. I believe that if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring it the much needed peace and happiness. (and of course ignorant and bias pple would think likewise..)

"we have a problem either its ok for 54 year old men to marry 6 year olds and thats not just 1400 years ago thats today because the koran says mohammed is a beautiful pattern that hes someone of sublime morality hes an example"

Jonny2mad pls read the followin quote closely..

"O Prophet (Muhammad SAW)! Verily, We have made lawful to you your wives, to whom you have paid their Mahr (bridal money given by the husband to his wife at the time of marriage), and those (slaves) whom your right hand possesses-whom Allah has given to you, and the daughters of your 'Amm (paternal uncles) and the daughters of your 'Ammat (paternal aunts) and the daughters of your Khal (mathernal uncles) and the daughters of your Khalat (maternal aunts) who migrated (from Makkah) with you and a believing woman if she offers herself to the Prophet, and the Prophet wishes to marry her- a privilege for you only, not for the (rest of) the believers. Indeed We know what We have enjoined upon them about their wives and those (slaves) whom their right hand possess, in order that there should be no difficulty on you. And Allah is Ever Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."

Surah 33 Al-Ahzab Verse 50

"it doesnt say this is a one off thing that its ok for mohammed to marry 6 year olds or keep and make people slaves which he also did and then at a certain period of time we shouldnt follow his sublime example"

that quote from Quran Surah 33 Al-Ahab Verse 50 should have answered ur question. It clearly indicates that these are meant for Prophet Muhammed (SAW) ALONE...My previous posts abt why Prophet (SAW) married Aisha (R) should have made it clear to u that there are REASONS why the marriage took place....there are so many things that Prophet has taught us...from leadership..to managin a household..to showin love to our children..i can go on..but u of all these must give an example which is just meant for the Prophet alone and of course u will never be able to think of any other examples cos they would surely be against ur claim..and i am very sure of this..and the verse i have quoted above clearly proves my point....so wat have u got to say...?

anyway u also said...
"because mohammed made it a rule that his former wives were not allowed to remarry she lived the rest of her life alone"

u are ABSOLUTELY WRONG!!!! it was not the Prophet who made it a rule but ALLAH!!

"O you who believe!Enter not the Prophet's houses, unless permission is given to you for a meal, (and then) not (so early as) to wait for its preparation. But when you are invited, enter, and when you have taken your meal, disperse without sitting for a talk. Verily, such (behaviour) annoys the Prophet, and he is shy of (asking) you (to go); but Allah is not shy (of telling you) the truth. And when you ask (his wives) for anything you want, ask them from behind a screen: that is purer for your hearts and for their hearts. And it is not (right) for you that you should annoy Allah's Messenger, nor that you should ever marry his wives after (his death). Verily, with Allah that shall be an enormity."

Surah 33 Al-Ahab verse 53

its clear enuff as u can see for urself that it is ALLAH'S WILL that Prophet Muhammed's (SAW) wives remain unmarried after the Prophet's(SAW) death. IT'S NOT THE PROPHET'S (SAW) RULE.

i hope from this itself u understand how much u know abt islam...and if u still want to critise it based on all your MISCONCEPTIONS...please go ahead but please know wat u are talkin abt..with the Quran and the hadeeth i can never have a better guide....so please go on... i would love to prove u wrong...=)

NiSh

08-28-2004, 02:24 PM

Article by Yusuf Islam (Cat Stevens)

Islam today is one the most misunderstood phenomena. Unfortunately people are looking at Muslims by some incidents which we are going through in the world today, which are supposed to be a reflection of Islam. THEY ARE NOT A REFLECTION OF ISLAM. THEY ARE A REFLECTION OF BADLY MISBEHAVING MUSLIMS. That is the problem which is besettling the Muslim community.

There are of course very good elements and good practising Muslims but these are not normally seen. It is usually the bad and the most sensational elements which are shown on the television and in the media. The way to solve this is for someone not to look at the Muslim but to look at Islam. It would be wrong for someone to judge a car being a bad car of the driver of the car was drunk and he crushed into a fence. Do you say "That car is bad" ? It has nothing to do with the car. It is to do with the driver.

Islam is to guide all human beings in their daily lives, in their spiritual, mental and physical dimensions.But we must find the source of this instruction which is,firstly,in the Quran and then secondly in the examples of the Prophet Muhammed (SAW) being the last Prophet. So once we come to see these two things, the Quran and the example of the Prophet, which is called the sunnah of the Prophet, then we see the ideal Islam.

NiSh

08-28-2004, 03:57 PM

BlackBillBlake...
u said..
"It has meant her disregarding her own intelligence and knowledge, and the hijab just means she's regarded with suspicion by others."

this is the usual assumtion carried by pple who do not know the real meaning of Hijab. In wat way does it mean that if one dons the hijab it disregards her own intelligence and knowledge? i just dont get the point nor the connection! can u please explain to me..? With the Hijab i get more freedom..i dont see man strippin me with their eyes when i walk down the street..i dont get unneccessay attention....people cant judge me by my looks they have to talk to me....and well like i have always been sayin if this is ur notion of freedom..and if u think that walkin around half naked means one is intelligence and knowledgable i wonder why the there are bimbos...oh well....heck it..i have got nothing to say...its pointless...i jus feel disgusted.

"where the good doctor claims that only Islam. Judaism and Christianity have any scriptures. This is simply untrue. So presumably the rest if the book, built on a false foundation, would be more un-truth. And they can't even find a translator capable of rendering the thing in decent english."

well i suppose u know it all...okie anyway...there are so many books on islam..and not all are reliable sources..same goes for the net...u can find sources but yet again not all are reliable. A very good example of this will be www.faithfreedom.org (http://www.faithfreedom.org/) our dear jonny2mad so often quotes from there. I checked out the site and am totally disgusted..its run by an opinionated fool who thinks that if he has 10 different versions of the Quran he can prove this faith wrong..and some of the articles there are darn lame and vague...for instance this guy Ali claimed that Islam is bais towards the blacks..cos its stated in the Quran that the unbelievers face will be black on the day of judegement..and the believers face will be white..and to him this means discrimination..i wonder where he studied english..maybe his teacher didnt teach him the use adjectives and that colours can also be used to express how we feel..emotions and etc..like "she went green with envy" it doesnt literally mean that her face is GREEN....i wish i can tell this guy to get a life on his face..anyway this is the way they have misinterpreted the Quran in that website...and oh yeah they have quotes of the Quran at the web site..and they just take the verses that make them seem so right...even i can do that give me a quote from a bible or any scriptures i can twist the facts and make it seem wrong and make myself seem so foolishly smart in the eyes of the fools..humans are darn good at this..we start tellin stories from a young age..so twistin facts wouldnt take us much..but coming to admit a truth when all along u have been livin with everythin thats fake..and false..well it takes much more than just guts to accept wat we MUSLIMS and THE QURAN states..cos this means breakin away from all the security walls u have built around u half ur life..and this means so many changes to u ...and startin all over again..and this is HARD..and admit it if u are not up to it and of course u would rather conveniently deny Islam and its teaching and even worse start condermin it..i wonder if ur mommy ever told u the fox and the grapes story when u were a kid..not that intellectually theres much of a dif in the way u perceive things now but well maybe u should go to her and ask her to tell u the story.....don sit around utterin rubbish saying that muslims are bad and islam is nasty...u sound just like a kid....its all WORDs..the use of WORDs...SEMENTICS..a single word can have thousand meanings to it and this is wat Craig has done...he takes a single verse that talks abt war and claims "O PPLE ISLAM IS ABT VIOLENCe..." oh how he amuses me especially when am rottin here feeling bored...a good entertainer..i can give his site a 5 star ratin....sheesh...The Quran can NEVER be written by any MAN cos of the very unique way its written the language is sooo darn good that no ARABIANS nor anyone who knows the language can ever write a A SINGLE verse equivalent to that of the Quran..previously pple have challenged and attempted to write something as good as the verses in Quran and they gave up cos they can NOT write a single verse as good as the ones in Quran and mind u these are NOT some jonnny2mads craigs or Alis..but these pple are SCHOLARS.....WAT HAVE U GOT TO SAY FOR THIS? okie just to make it a little more easier for u to comprehend BBB am sure u would have read at least one peom in ur life...even in poems a single line has mutliple meanings to it...!!!!! wat more can u say abt GOD's WORDS? u who cant produce a work like that (meanin as good as the verses in Quran) IS NO ONE TO CRITISE IT AS WELL.. ..and of course pple who know nuts abt islam will just be goons and nod their heads and believe everythin Craig 'preaches' ...like jonny2mad somehow its so much more easier to do that....come on look at the CONTEXTS! when u look at the verses of the Quran u should ALWAYS look at the verse BEFORE a particular verse and AFTER a particular verse..only then u will understand it better..Oh yeah its bit too dif for pple like u to do that cos u would rather sit on ur ass and just believe the rubbish at faithfreedom cos Craigh is the one who knows EVERYTHIN ABT ISLAM Craigh is the one who knows it all and oh yeah he has 10 dif translations of the Quran..WOW impressed impressed..eh..so??? i can read all the books in the library but it doesnt mean that i have to be doin so well it my studies..cos at the end of it ITS THE UNDERSTANDING THAT MATTERS..and craigs equivalent to 0 here...Heck it....truth always remains as the truth no matter which jackass comes along and tries to distort it or twist the fact..there always pple like Caigs around so am not really shocked....its just a matter of fact if one is able to realise this or not... so maybe u should refer to something reliable b4 judgin any religion..

"i also confronted her with the story of the Jews of Medina, who Muhammed had executed, and took part in the executions himself. This led only to a denial, and more stuff about how I can't be happy as a non-muslim."

this fren of urs is new to the religion..she had just converted..why are u bombardin her with all these questions when she herself is just gettin to know Islam? I just think this is plain stupidity...again its just like wat jujunisha said...if u want to learn how to do a particular maths question u approah ur teacher and not a student who is learnin himself....this will just lead to more confusion....so please stop doin this to ur poor fren...approach someone who knows islam better...and then come to a decision...it amuses me cos its ur own stupidity that's causin ur unhappiness and not the fact that ur fren couldnt ans ur question and u are not yet able to figure this out...=)

"I'm not prepared to accept what is lies and falsification, and an attitude that blithely accepts the facts of Muhammed's life despite the abuses."

how do u know something is a lie when u dont even know it from its true sense? If u think u know it all well my fren u would have known that
Islam wasnt born in Saudi in the first place but it was our dear Prophet
Muhammed (SAW) who was born there....this is one of the most basic facts in islam..and u dont even know this to start off with..!! so how can one even be sure that what u know of Islam is even right in the first place? to make things more amusin for me u actually go on to say that Islam is abt lies...when in fact its u who dont even know the truth..when u claim that something is a lie then pragmatically u mean that u know the truth..right? so then wat is the truth accordin to u? but then again u dont even seem to have the basic essential knowledge of islam..this puts to question ur whole perception of islam..!
to know the truth u must be able to differentiate it from the lie...common sense...hmm..i dont think it requires some one who doesnt don the hijab to figure out this.....cos accordin to u we women who don it are not knowledgable..oh well look at wat u are sayin..its a reflection of urself.

Haanu

08-29-2004, 11:49 AM

I am a muslim and proud to be a muslim..hmm..so..let me know one thing,,u are asking questions abt muslims girls..what do your NUNs do in the church,,they cover thier full body and they wear scarf on their heads for their whole life,,now why are they doing so ? any answer,,prove me this thing..and then ask any question abt muslim girls..got it..and from which thing will u prove urself..from bible..huh..i can show you 31 different bibles,,now which one is corerct..??,,have a look at urself..ur religion and then point out someone else..i challenge you to show me A SINGLE DIFFERENT VERSION OF QURAN..U WILL NEVER GET THAT..ITS A CHALLENGE..QURAN IS GOD WORLDS AND BIBLE IS HUMANS WORDS...THERE IS ONLY ONE QURAN AND THERE ARE SEVARAL BIBLES WRITTEN BY HUMAN ACCORDING TO THEIR NEEDS...
Now have a look at this thing morally,,if your white girls have rights to hang around with NAKED bodies,,if they have rights to expose themselves,,if your white girls and guys have rights to have sex anytime they want...then what is the problem if muslim girls wear scarf ? what is worng with it...now give me one single prrof that white girls can be naked on the streets they can expose their bodies and its allowed in your religion ?
IS TEHRE ANYONE.. WHO CAN ANSWER ME...its an open challenge.....
and yeah...if u cant prove then just simply delete this site..as u said..ok

NiSh

08-30-2004, 03:52 AM

BLACKBILLBLAKE SAID...
"to those who argue that in Islamic countries it is not compulsory for women to wear the hijab, I would like to say that in some countries Islam is not fully practiced - in Saudi Arabia I doubt it would be permitted, and Saudi is the birthplace of Islam"

i think its quite obvious that most islamic ctry force hijab on the women...like i mentioned in my previous post its the rule of the ctry...to make any conclusion u have to refer to the Quran and the hadeeth and not look at how the muslim ctry behave...they are NOT our GUIDE NOR ARE THEY OUR ROLE MODEL.. even i a practisin muslim will not agree with all the things that they do in the name of islam. (Pls refer to the article by Yusuf Islam)

In my country Islam is FULLY practiced..and well there are MUSLIM WOMEN who choose not to don the hijab...and the Islamic Religious Council here have not taken any steps to force it on them..cos they know that it should never be forced..i cant be explainin why then these muslim ctry are behavin in such a manner..they are answerable for their own deeds but u should stop makin assumptions based on these ctry..instead u should refer to the Quran and the hadeeth which is OUR GUIDE AND OUR ROLE MODEL so why dont u start doin that if u ever want to say anythinmore abt islam? u will start makin more sense that way.

"And even in Morocco, a very liberal muslim country, a white womwn I know told me how when she went out she had a bunch of children calling her names etc. because as a non-hijab wearer, she's thought of a simply a whore."

wat can i say but this is the ultimate result of the accusations and the assumtions of pple like u!!? if u think wat this bunch of children did is wrong then u will have to agree with me that its wrong to assume that
women who don the hijab are stupid and oppressed..and of course agree with me that its wrong to associate Islam with terrorism and agree with me that its wrong to judge Islam by the actions and behaviours of the black sheeps in Islam..(but i doubt u will ever agree with me)..actually there seems to be no difference between those children and people like u...the children assume that women who dont don the hijab are whore and u blindly assume that women who don the hijab are stupid and oppressed..both dont know the truth..the children are young and they might not even have realised that their remarks might have hurt the women's feelings..but adults like u...hurlin words which are insensitive out of pure ignorance is much more worse then the actions of
those children.

to me if u think that its alright to blindly associate islam from a very negative light..then its perfectly alright for me that those kids associated that woman who did not don the hijab as a whore..

if u choose to be ignorant and make the wrong judegement...the result or the reaction u get will be equally as bad.

jonny2mad

08-31-2004, 05:29 AM

Your taking Mohammed word for it that god came to him in a dream 3 times or even once

if you look in modern times you get lots of people who claim to be prophets who say that god has told them to do things like sleep with children its a pretty normal for these type of people

and when you say that Allah made it a rule that Mohammed’s wives were not able to remarry what you mean is Mohammed said his invisible friend Allah said it but Mohammed was the one doing the talking

I read Surah 33 Al-Ahzab Verse 50 closely and I don’t see anywhere that says that Mohammed’s example in marrying 6 years old is to be taken as just a one off for him alone

What does stand out to me in that sura is that this person you hold up as your role model. the best example. And an exalted standard character. He was actually a superhero had

Those (slaves) whom your right hand possesses

So the sura is saying that Mohammed was a slaver as well as a pedophile and when you consider that you could have sex with female slaves this to me lowers his behavior even more

you may find this old thread interesting on the whole question of the age of consent in the Koran basically you have payment for a divorce settlement before menstruation and the fact that you only need to pay such a payment if the marriage is consummated

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum2/viewtopic.php?t=6666&sid=a8a3fd7e526ce3007a7c4e4adcbde275 (http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum2/viewtopic.php?t=6666&sid=a8a3fd7e526ce3007a7c4e4adcbde275)

you seem to be saying that Mohammed wasn’t a paedophile because he married other older women as well but I don’t buy that it’s a bit like saying a thief is honest because most of his life he wasn’t out stealing

For Mohammed to be a man of sublime character and a example to follow he shouldn’t have married one six year old

what I suggest you do is find a picture of a six year old child and another picture of a 54 year old man and look at these pictures and think am I being conned ,do I think this is what god wants would god consider this a good example

You can dig up evidence that its unhealthy for little children to have baby’s very young so even though it’s possible for someone to have sex at 6 or 8 1/2 it’s harmful

Shouldn’t god have known this and why would god command his prophet to do something like this

isn’t it more likely that it was Mohammed’s own desires

jonny2mad

08-31-2004, 01:25 PM

and to see a qoute from yusef islam aka cat stevens saying dont judge islam on what some muslims do is really really really funny

Im british like cat stevens and salman rushdie, and I remember mr stevens help hound mr rushdie into hiding for writing a book he didnt like

I think mr stevens should be in jail for incitement to murder for what he did during the rushdie affair, not telling me that I shouldnt judge islam by the actions of of people like himself

but Im not at present judging islam by the actions of individual muslims but by the man who claimed to be a prophet

Haanu

09-18-2004, 10:45 PM

I haven't got the reply back to my previous post..means that you guys are totally last in finding the answer of that challenges,,,
and u Mr. Jonny2mad i wish we could meet someday..so that i could let u know that what is the meaning of being a muslim..one more thing,..u are here posting fake and cheap posts just beause of your narrow and sick mind,,,i think u have't seen the world...and ur knowledge is limited...try to explose the things,,,and try to answer my last challenge...which i am sure u can never...so better hide your face and go away with your sick mind..have some research and then come back...u got it

jonny2mad

09-19-2004, 01:53 AM

your challenge to produce another quran is subjective

for example who is to judge this test

My wife is the most beautiful women in the world!
Bring me any woman like it!
If you can't, then you have to accept that everything she says is right.

I dont think the quran is the word of god, you do which of us is to judge

http://www.answering-islam.org.uk/Quran/Miracle/

ali sinas challenge is i suppose subjective too for example I would see mohammeds marriage to aisha as a crime, you wouldnt because mohammeds teachings are the basis of your morality.

so if mohammed kills some girls family and then has sex with her soon afterwards I would think this is rape, as very few women would want to have sex with someone whose just murdered her family

you on the other hand wouldnt think this was rape as I suppose she would be classed as some sort of legal war booty

if you look to the west you see women going around with very few clothes on and many of them sleepying with whoever they want
but is this any worse than making people into slaves and then having sex with them or marrying little children
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/safiyah.htm

Ed2

09-19-2004, 02:35 AM

Check out what these Muslims are wearing:

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=605

http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/bosnia.html

amalbayati

02-06-2005, 09:29 AM

In reply to Tom; I am a true native to this country (USA) and am married to an Iraqi national. I am Christian whereas my husband is Muslim. I have lived in Arab countries and can say that for the women in Iraq and in Jordan, I have seen muslim women cover their heads and some not cover their heads. They are not forced into covering. And Christians mostly DO NOT cover their heads in Iraq nor in Jordan. I on the other hand have covered my head at times while in the Arab lands and sometimes I did not cover. My husband does not require me to cover my head nor does he beat me. It is against the Quaran to beat the wife and for violence such as the terrorist. These terrorist that call themselves muslims are not recognized as true Muslims by others of the Islamic faith. And for the remark that was made about Sadam making life better for the women in Iraq - where did you get that information???? That is so wrong - things may be dangerous right now in Iraq for all people - Muslim, or Christian but they are still better now then they were when Sadam was in control. Sadam was not a true Muslim just for the record. I am back in the USA now and there are times when I choose to wear the hijab and times when I choose not to wear the hijab. I do have to admit that I recieve more respect from men Christians included, when I wear the hijab. For the Christians that read this, you might find it interesting to know that women are mentioned in the Bible in I Corinthians 11 about covering their head when they pray and for respect of the husband and for God. While I lived in the Arab lands, I noticed great respect given to the women there - unlike what is given to the women here. As far as domestic violence - that can be found in all cultures, religions and in every country - look right here in the USA! Please research better before making assumtions on how others live.

heshamzanto

02-07-2005, 04:12 PM

here is a great book could help u understanding the islamic rules concerning women

http://www.aljame3.com/forums/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=24405

Desert Stargazer

02-07-2005, 07:30 PM

I think women should be allowed to dress the way they feel the most comfortable. It helps to not look sloppy, or dirty, and if we see women who are poor, and need assistance finding decent clothing, we should help out. Sometimes people have bad circumstances, and just can't be as fashionable as they would like. As for the Muslim women, I have seen many types of clothing, from an almost Medieval look, to a simple plain modern style. I think the long coats are attractive, and the tunics are very practical, and comfortable. Granted, some of the head wear seems a bit austere, but I think the draping scarves are feminine. I worry that many of the burkas, and Shia clothing may pose a health hazard in modern times, due to all the things they can get hung up on, and the cars, etc. But, ultimately, women should be allowed to choose. In Egypt, I have seen the young girls wearing flowered dresses. Men have to realise..that women aren't forcing them to wear things they don't like. Men are a bit insecure at times. They equate a beautiful woman with "being loose and wanton"....That's silly. If some men know how to treat women in the first place, the women won't need anyone else. It would be great to make men wear the burka to work, and see how well they take to not being able to see the skill saw clearly.....

Zaffydoo

03-09-2005, 03:05 PM

NiSH, you totally bashed Johnny the phoney. LOL. Islam is indeed a great religion preserved and followed by great people. What you have managed to do is expose Johhnys 2-bit argument as another case of a misinformed and misguided zealot.

Much love from Amsterdam, peace.

Zaffydoo

03-09-2005, 03:06 PM

food for thought indeed, Jujunisa.

jonny2mad

04-05-2005, 08:56 PM

zaffydoo
you or nish havnt shown that mohammed wasnt a pedophile slaver rapist if thats the sort of person you believe god would choose as his last prophet I pity you .

In most islamic countrys you are unable to freely discuss mohammeds actions and even in the west you get threats and the usual islamic boot boy tactics .

if mohammed really was someone to respect his actions would shine out and nothing that I or anyone else could point out would be able to effect him

Zaffydoo

04-06-2005, 09:53 AM

Thanks for the sympathy Jonny, I'll let you know when I need it, you can hang on to it until then.

All you've managed to show is that despite repeated explanation you are unwilling to take your tiny piece of information and put it into the context it deserves. There is no point trying to convince someone like that that there is more to the story than meets modern standards and current decorum.

I hope you find your peace soon.

jonny2mad

04-06-2005, 03:32 PM

cabdirazzaq

04-07-2005, 07:53 AM

modern standards and current decorum. ha ha ha

mohammed claimed to be a the last prophet of god his morality and example was supposed to be for all time .

would god want as a example a man having sex with a little child or keeping slaves and making people into slaves or torturing people .

there were plenty of people back then that didnt do these things , god could have picked one of those .

what does this say about allahs morality ?

isnt it more likely that mohammed was just someone like charles manson or hitler who fooled lots of people , and claimed that god told him to sleep with little children when that was his own desireFirst of all, this man who you are so fond of critizising was a man with great morals and a astonishing personality, this cannot be denied.

Muhummed is the most successful of all Prophets and religious personalities. Encyclopedia Britannica

The founder of twenty terrestrial empires and of one spiritual empire, that is Muhammed. As regards all standards by which
human greatness may be measured, we may well ask, is there any man greater than he? " Lamartine,

I have studied him - the wonderful man and in my opinion for from being an anti-Christ, he must be called the Saviour of Humanity. I believe that if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world, he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring it the much needed peace and happiness George Bernad Shaw

M. Ghandi speaking about Muhammed:
I became more than convinced that it was not the sword that won a place for Islam in those days in the scheme of life. It was the rigid simplicity, the utter self-effacement of the Prophet, the scrupulous regard for his pledges, his intense devotion to his friends and followers, his intrepidity, his fearlessness, his absolute trust in God and in his own mission. These and not the sword carried everything before them and surmounted every obstacle. When I closed the 2nd volume (of the prophet's biography), I was sorry there was not more for me to read of the great life. "

You may ask your self Johnny, if this man was so horrible, why did people -litterly- enter his religion in crowds and still do? Why did tribe after tribe start accepting his religion, how could he go from having no followers into having a great nation if he indeed was such a terrible man?

The Encyclopedia Britannica says(Vol 12);
A mass of detail in the early sources shows that the Prophet of Islam, Mohammed was an honest and upright man who had gained the respect and loyalty of others who were like-wise honest and upright men.

Secondly:
The prophet(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) lived in a time when slavery was custom, it was practised all over the world. With his coming, slavery wasn't started it was restricted!

For one thing, slavery had now only one source - from captives of war.
He ordered for their rights even though they were slaves:

"Your slaves are your brothers and Allah has put them under your command. So whoever has a brother under his command should feed him of what he eats and dress him of what he wears. Do not ask them to do things beyond their capacity (power) and if you do so, then help them.'"

Zadhan reported that Ibn Umar called his slave and he found the marks (of beating) upon his back. He said to him: I have caused you pain. He said: No. But he (Ibn Umar) said: You are free. He then took hold of something from the earth and said: There is no reward for me even to the weight equal to it. I heard Allah's Messenger (may peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) as saying: He who beats a slave without cognizable offence of his or slaps him (without any serious fault), then expiation for it is that he should set him free

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) as saying: When the slave of anyone amongst you prepares food for him and he serves him after having sat close to (and undergoing the hardship of) heat and smoke, he should make him (the slave) sit along with him and make him eat (along with him), and if the food seems to run short, then he should spare some portion for him (from his own share

Freeing slaves is something rewardble as the prophet(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) said:

"Give food to the hungry, pay a visit to the sick and release (set free) the one in captivity (by paying his ransom)."

Narrated Asma: "No doubt the Prophet ordered people to manumit slaves during the solar eclipse.

Let us study the following quran verse and see what it says;

And such of your servants as seek a writing (of emancipation), give them such writing, if you find that there is good and honesty in them. And give them something (yourselves) out of the wealth of Allah which He has bestowed upon you. And force not your slave-girls to prostitution, if they desire chastity, in order that you may make a gain in the goods of this worldly life. But if anyone compels them, then after such compulsion, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to them).[Quran chapter Noor]

This verse teaches us that slaves can buy there freedom and that one should help them with that if there is good and honesty in them. Ibrahim An-Nakha`i said, "This is urging the people, their masters and others.'' This was also the view of Buraydah bin Al-Husayb Al-Aslami and Qatadah. Ibn `Abbas said: "Allah commanded the believers to help in freeing slaves.''

"I said to `Ata', "If I know that my servant has money, is it obligatory for me to write him a contract of emancipation'' He said, "I do not think it can be anything but obligatory.'' `Amr bin Dinar said: "I said to `Ata', `Are you narrating this from anybody' He said, `No,' then he told me that Musa bin Anas told him that Sirin, who had a lot of money, asked Anas for a contract of emancipation and he refused. So he went to `Umar (bin Al-Khattab), may Allah be pleased with him, and he said, `Write it for him.' He refused, so `Umar hit him with his whip and recited(interpretation of the meaning): give them such writing, if you find that there is good and honesty in them. Then he wrote the contract.''

But he has not attempted to pass on the path that is steep.

And what will make you know the path that is steep
Freeing a neck
Or giving food in a day full of Masghabah[hunger],
To an orphan near of kin.
Or to a Miskin cleaving to dust.[90.11-16]

Or to a Miskin cleaving to dust (Dha Matrabah).) meaning, poor, miserable, and clinging to the dirt. It means those who are in a state of destitution. Ibn `Abbas said, "Dha Matrabah is that who is dejected in the street and who has no house or anything else to protect him against the dirt.

Thirdly:
I have not seen any hadith where the prophet(peace and blessing of Allah be upon) claims that his marriage to Aisha was an order from Allah(may he be exalted) so where did you get this information?

Do remember that in this society these kinds if marriages were totally normal just as it was normal a 100 years ago in the US to marry girls as young as 10 and in other countries even younger. The fact that you feel aversion to it does not lower the greatness of the prophet(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) at all.

Almost all western people were discussed by homosexuality 100 years ago, now it is more accepted, it could happen that your children will live in a world were they accept incest even though you feel strong aversion against it (I presume). Does this mean that we are all so horrible and terrible for hating incest, wouldn't your grandchildren feel sorry for all those "bigots" who didn't accept incest?

My point being, there is technically nothing wrong with marrying a young girl or a young boy as long as they have reached puberty!

It is not Birr(righteousness) that you turn your faces towards east and (or) west; but Birr is the one who believes in Allah, the Last Day, the Angels, the Book, the Prophets and gives his wealth, in spite of love for it, to the kinsfolk, to the orphans, and to Al-Masakin (the poor), and to the wayfarer, and to those who ask, and to set servants free [2.177]

jonny2mad

04-07-2005, 07:37 PM

hitler was a man of great morals ask any nazi.

you can get qoutes praising both hitler and stalin if you look for them both men had very low moral standards .
slavery wasnt restricted by the coming of mohammed think about all the people this monster made slaves and his men raped .

and surely even if slavery was about at the time of mohammed he could have made a stand against it and said no making people slaves he didnt in fact he did the oppersite .

if it wasnt for the west in the last century the muslim world would still have slavery, thats how mohammeds example effected things, I mean look at saudi where slavery most likely still goes on and was only outlawed in the 1970s .

would you be happy marrying off your daughter of six to a 54? year old man, can a six year old consent, do they know whats happening.
The haddith seems to say that aisha didnt that she was out playing with dolls and then married to this old for her man .

she didnt get the chance to have another husband when he died when she was 18 because mohammed made it a rule that his wives were not allowed to remarry ....is this really the best that god can do marry off a little child to a old man and then cause her to spend the rest of her life alone

jonny2mad

04-07-2005, 07:40 PM

http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/AyeshaAhmed50405.htm

interesting article on mohammeds moral character

cabdirazzaq

04-08-2005, 07:41 AM

hitler was a man of great morals ask any nazi.[QUOTE]
That is the point! I didn't get my quotes from muslims I got them from OTHER SOURCES. THE ENCYCLOPEDIA OF BRITTANICA, MAHATMA GHANDI AND GEORGE BERNAD SHAW were some them - all and many more agreing on the fact that he was an honest and good man, even his enemies agreed to this.
The following authentic haith in Bukhari shows this. Abu Sufyan(who at the time was one of the great enemies agains islam) had been accompanying a caravan in Sham(Syria, Palestine, Lebanon and Jordan) and he had been called by the famous Heraclius - the leader of the east Roman empire- to answer some questions about the man who claimed to be a prophet. The hadith is long so Il post only parts of it, the whole of it can be found here (http://http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/001.sbt.html#001.001.006)

He called for his translator who, translating Heraclius's question said to them, "Who amongst you is closely related to that man who claims to be a Prophet?" Abu Sufyan replied, "I am the nearest relative to him (amongst the group)."

Heraclius said, "Bring him (Abu Sufyan) close to me and make his companions stand behind him." Abu Sufyan added, Heraclius told his translator to tell my companions that he wanted to put some questions to me regarding that man (The Prophet) and that if I told a lie they (my companions) should contradict me." Abu Sufyan added, "By Allah! Had I not been afraid of my companions labeling me a liar, I would not have spoken the truth about the Prophet. The first question he asked me about him was:

"What is his family status amongst you?'

I replied, 'He belongs to a good (noble) family amongst us.'

Heraclius further asked, 'Has anybody amongst you ever claimed the same (i.e. to be a Prophet) before him?'

I replied, 'No.'

He said, 'Was anybody amongst his ancestors a king?'

I replied, 'No.'

Heraclius asked, 'Do the nobles or the poor follow him?'

I replied, 'It is the poor who follow him.'

He said, 'Are his followers increasing decreasing (day by day)?'

I replied, 'They are increasing.'

He then asked, 'Does anybody amongst those who embrace his religion become displeased and renounce the religion afterwards?'

I replied, 'No.'

Heraclius said, 'Have you ever accused him of telling lies before his claim (to be a Prophet)?'

I replied, 'No. '

Heraclius said, 'Does he break his promises?'

I replied, 'No. We are at truce with him but we do not know what he will do in it.' I could not find opportunity to say anything against him except that.

Heraclius asked, 'Have you ever had a war with him?'

I replied, 'Yes.'

Then he said, 'What was the outcome of the battles?'

I replied, 'Sometimes he was victorious and sometimes we.'

Heraclius said, 'What does he order you to do?' I said, 'He tells us to worship Allah and Allah alone and not to worship anything along with Him, and to renounce all that our ancestors had said. He orders us to pray, to speak the truth, to be chaste and to keep good relations with our Kith and kin.'

....."

and surely even if slavery was about at the time of mohammed he could have made a stand against it and said no making people slaves he didnt in fact he did the oppersite .
The prophet(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) used to release slaves and there are many hadith on this subject. When he released his slave boy Zaid ibn Harith who had been kidnapped from his parents and sold around many places, the last of those places being mecca- he ended up with the prophet(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) who released him but he refused to leave him. His father had heard were this boy had been taken and went to mecca to get his son back but zaid replied:

"Father! Who does not love his parents? My heart is full of love for you and mother. But I love this man Muhammad so much that I cannot think of living elsewhere than with him. I have met you and I am glad.. But separation from Muhammad I cannot endure." Zaid's father and his uncle did their utmost to persuade Zaid to return home with them but Zaid did not agree. Upon this the Holy Prophet said, "Zaid was a freed man already, but from today he will be my son." Seeing this affection between Zaid and the Prophet, Zaid's father and uncle went back and Zaid remained with the Prophet (Hisham).

Allah's Apostle(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) said, "If a person teaches his slave girl good manners properly, educates her properly, and then manumits and marries her, he will get a double reward. And if a man believes in Jesus(peace be upon him) and then believes in me, he will get a double reward.

The prophet(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) said:
"Give food to the hungry, pay a visit to the sick and [b]release (set free) the one in captivity (by paying his ransom)."

The Prophet (peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) sent some horsemen to Najd and they brought a man called Thumama bin Uthal from Bani Hanifa. They fastened him to one of the pillars of the mosque. The Prophet came and ordered them to release him

And Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) gave him a slave girl out of the one-fifth (of the spoils of war meant for the Holy Prophet). [b]And when Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) set the war prisoners free. 'Umar b. Khattab heard their voice as they were saying: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) has set us free. He (Hadrat 'Umar) said: What is this? They said: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) has set free the prisoners of war (which had fallen to the lot of people). Thereupon he (Hadrat 'Umar) said: Abdullah, [b]go to that slave-girl and set her free. (Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book of Oaths (Kitab Al-Aiman), Book 015, Number 4074)"

The Prophet(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) said, "Whoever manumits his share of a jointly possessed slave, it is essential for him to manumit the slave completely if he has sufficient money. Otherwise he should look for some work for the slave (to earn what would enable him to emancipate himself), without overburdening him with work."

I bought Buraira but her masters put the condition that her Wala' would be for them. I told the Prophet about it. [b]He said (to me), "Manumit her as her Wala' will be for the one who pays the price." So, I manumitted her. The Prophet called Buraira and gave her the option of either staying with her husband or leaving him. She said, "Even if he gave me so much money, I would not stay with him," and so she preferred her freedom to her husband.

Allah's Apostle(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) said, "He who has a slave-girl and educates and [b]treats her nicely and then manumits and marries her, will get a double reward."

"What is the best kind of manumission (of slaves)?" He replied, "The manumission of the most expensive slave and the most beloved by his master´[Bukhari]

We were ordered to[b] free slaves at the time of lunar eclipses

Aisha wanted to buy a slave-girl in order to[b] manumit her. The girl's masters stipulated that her Wala' would be for them. Allah's Apostle(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) said (to 'Aisha), "What they stipulate should not stop you, for the Wala' is for the liberator." [Bukhari]

she didnt get the chance to have another husband when he died when she was 18

This shows how much she loved him, is there any hadith were she or any of the other wives ever said a word against him or did they always praise the manners of this great man?In another hadith he mentions that Aisha(may Allah be pleased with her) was the one he loved the most of all the people and how dear you come here with having a filthy additude against such a beautiful marriage?

feministhippy

04-19-2005, 11:01 PM

Why do you bother arguing with him? He's being a dick. Why waste your time arguing with someone who knows nothing about your religion, and is just sitting behind the moniter starting shit because he has nothing better to do with his time?

Antimatter235

04-20-2005, 11:36 AM

Actually he didn't start shit he have very good arguments and reasons to slam the facts into their face.
But YOU start shit since you obviously have no clue what he's talking about and did an ad hominem attack.
Your bitchy attitude was unnescessary.

jonny2mad

04-24-2005, 02:58 AM

Cab I’ve just told you that I could find non Nazis at the time of Hitler who said what a great man Hitler is and what a great job he’s doing in Germany.

One of the things you’re doing is not thinking about the faults that I’m pointing out in Mohammed’s actions because some fool who in many cases doesn’t know much about Islam said that Mohammed was a great guy.

Lets say Michael Jackson said what a wonderful moral man Mohammed was, would that prove that Mohammed was moral, wouldn’t it be better to examine what Mohammed actually did

If his actions were best practice you could defend them without the help of George Bernard Shaw

If I write or say that Mohammed was a paedophile, rapist, mass murderer, who enjoyed torturing people, all of which I have shown that he was using Islamic scripture.

and I do it openly even in the west I’m likely to be killed by members of your religion so no wonder you only get a false positive view of Mohammed’s morality .

Slavery

if you have a thief and he occasionally gives back the thing he stole, does that make that person moral or not a thief , so to if you have a man who makes thousands of people into slaves and sets up a system of slavery who occasionally frees a slave does that make him moral or not a slaver .

I’m saying why would god chose a man who made people into slaves as is prophet ,all you can come back with is that he occasionally let people go , well he shouldn’t have made them into slaves in the first place

Your haddith is nice but you have to remember that it comes from a book written by Muslims to encourage other people to become Muslims.

If you read mein kampf or the writings of other Nazis, you will find that Hitler is this really honest wonderful guy whose kind to animals.

But you would need to remember when reading Nazi writings that the people writing are Nazis and have a bias in favour of Nazism .

That’s how you should view Islamic scripture as something that’s written with a bias in favour of Islam and Mohammed

Zaid ibn Harith

Father! Who does not love his parents? My heart is full of love for you and mother. But I love this man Muhammad so much that I cannot think of living elsewhere than with him. I have met you and I am glad.. But separation from Muhammad I cannot endure." Zaid's father and his uncle did their utmost to persuade Zaid to return home with them but Zaid did not agree. Upon this the Holy Prophet said, "Zaid was a freed man already, but from today he will be my son." Seeing this affection between Zaid and the Prophet, Zaid's father and uncle went back and Zaid remained with the Prophet (Hisham).

This seems pretty sinister

stockholm syndrome describes the behavior of kidnap victims who, over time become sympathetic to their captors. The name derives from a 1973 hostage incident in Stockholm, Sweden. At the end of six days of captivity in a bank, several kidnap victims actually resisted rescue attempts, and afterwards refused to testify against their captors.

The most famous incident in the U.S. involved the kidnapped heiress . patty hirst Captured by a radical political group known as the symbionese liberation army in 1974, Ms. Hearst eventually became an accomplice of the group, taking on an assumed name and assisting them in several bank robberies. After her re-capture, she denounced the group and her involvement.

What causes Stockholm syndrome? Captives begin to identify with their captors initially as a defensive mechanism, out of fear of violence. Small acts of kindness by the captor are magnified, since finding perspective in a hostage situation is by definition impossible. Rescue attempts are also seen as a threat, since it's likely the captive would be injured during such attempts.

It's important to note that these symptoms occur under tremendous emotional and often physical duress. The behavior is considered a common survival strategy for victims of interpersonal abuse, and has been observed in battered spouses, abused children, prisoners of war, and concentration camp survivors

The Stockholm incident compelled journalists and social scientists to research whether the emotional bonding between captors and captives was a "freak" incident or a common occurrence in oppressive situations. They discovered that it's such a common phenomenon that it deserves a name. Thus the label, Stockholm Syndrome, was born. It has happened to concentration camp prisoners, cult members, civilians in Chinese Communist prisons, pimp-procured prostitutes, incest victims, physically and/or emotionally abused children, battered women, prisoners of war, victims of hijackings, and of course, hostages. Virtually anyone can get Stockholm Syndrome it the following conditions are met:

Perceived threat to survival and the belief that one's captor is willing to act on that threat
The captive's perception of small kindnesses from the captor within a context of terror
Isolation from perspectives other than those of the captor
Perceived inability to escape.

Imagine you are this boy you’ve been kept as a slave by this man who you have seen murder lots of people, a cult leader who has convinced other people to kill and enslave people.

Wouldn’t this be a wonderful situation for a case of Stockholm syndrome .

How dare I come here having a filthy attitude to a old man having sex with a six year old …….gosh that’s bad of me isn’t it .

Im amazed that you believe its natural or best practice for this sort of thing to happen or that it wasn’t rape

How could aisha give a informed consent at that age

And if it’s nothing to be ashamed of why aren’t Muslims more open that they like the idea of sex with children.

”she didn’t get the chance to have another husband when he died “
”This shows how much she loved him,”

how does it show that, if it was one of his commands that his wives were not to remarry I would imagine it would be quite dangerous for her to do so

Raving Sultan

04-24-2005, 03:02 AM

Michael Jackson is muslim???

cabdirazzaq

04-24-2005, 07:15 AM

One of the things you’re doing is not thinking about the faults that I’m pointing out in Mohammed’s actions because some fool who in many cases doesn’t know much about Islam said that Mohammed was a great guy.How arrogant of you to "call" everyone else besides your self, ignorant, so the writers of the Encyclopedia of Brittanica and people like Ghandi and Lamartine are fools and big fat liars?
if you have a thief and he occasionally gives back the thing he stole, does that make that person moral or not a thief , so to if you have a man who makes thousands of people into slaves and sets up a system of slavery who occasionally frees a slave does that make him moral or not a slaver
I’m saying why would god chose a man who made people into slaves as is prophet ,all you can come back with is that he occasionally let people go , well he shouldn’t have made them into slaves in the first place How many times do I have to repeat this.

Slavery existed prior to the prophets(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) time, he restricted and modified it. He gave them rights they didnt have before and he restricted it so it could only come from one source, from CAPTIVES OF WAR and not because of skin color (like another nation liked to do, hmm what was the name of that nation? ^^)
He encourged them to treat them well and he even ordered them on many different occiasions to release them and he forbidded them to hit them brutaliy or in the face!
He said that they were their brothers and in the quran we find and important message:
And if any of your slaves ask for a deed in writing (to enable them to earn their freedom for a certain sum), give them such a deed if ye know any good in them: yea, give them something yourselves out of the means which Allah has given to you.

About the stockholm syndrom, you are assuming that he kidnapped this boy but please Johnny find me one hadith which shows that he did this. All I can find is that this boy was kidnapped by some people then sent around many different places-and then finally sold to the prophet(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) who then took care of him, enough to make this boy chose his him before his own father. This is because of goodness from this man and not somehing else. Why would people storm into his religion if he indeed was so horrible, how could he start such a gigantic wave of convertion through out his country and the world.
how does it show that, if it was one of his commands that his wives were not to remarry I would imagine it would be quite dangerous for her to do so
Stop imagining, the prophet (peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) did not force his wives to stay married with them. He acually asked them if they wanted to leave him or not as he was commanded in the quran:
O Prophet! say to your wives: If you desire this world's life and its adornment, then come, I will give you a provision and allow you to depart a goodly departing[Quran Ahzab -interpretation of the meaning]

You seem to accept Aishas testimony about her age, do you then accept her words; It is reported in a hadith: Sa`d ibn Hisham said that he asked `A’ishah (may Allah be pleased with her), “Tell me about the character of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him). She said, “His character was the Qur’an”

drumminmama

06-11-2005, 07:05 PM

why does EVERY disciussion of Islam go back to practices used in 1000-1500 ce?
What were Europeans doing then?
claiming Jews made matzah from babies' blood, having wars. More wars. Women as property (check the tax rolls)
we all are evolving into better beings seeking g-d. Just takes some sects longer as they fear too much.
the question in OP was if it would be OK for the woman to wear hijab/scarf in public as a non-Muslim.
I have danced at shows in kurta with my hair restrained and mostly covered.
BUT hijab is for modesty. As are the scarves I wear to shul.
Think about that and if you feel it is right for you, well, Ok then.
I also live under a modesty code that is flexible with the situation.
Xtianity has its own modesty rules. Why not look into your own faith as well?
If you simply want to wear a scarf, go beyond the colours and patterns allowed in Islamic culture (note: not rules)

kiss_the_sky

06-11-2005, 09:51 PM

Michael Jackson is muslim???
He's a Jehovah's Witness I once heard.

myrtje

09-12-2005, 12:21 PM

Actually the rule that women should cover their heads is in the new testament aswell, its the reason why nuns do so:

Romans 7:2

"For if a woman will not veil herself, she should cut off her hair; but if it disgraceful for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her wear a veil"

stlkr_94

09-28-2005, 06:52 PM

Johnny2mad should have banned for his rudeness...

jonny2mad

10-07-2005, 12:46 AM

what Im saying isnt hardly rude at all, I have friends who are ex muslims who are far ruder than me about mohammed .

and I dont make up stuff about him if the historical record says he raped people and had sex with children and made people slaves thats what he did .

I can understand if your a muslim how you may not like these things being brought up, I used to believe in prophets to so I understand your point of view , but I think your being fooled as I was and so I think it best I point it out .

Zaffydoo

10-10-2005, 09:40 AM

If you consider what you are saying to be "not rude" then you understand less about Islam than I previously put you down for. You a little boy with a little gun that wants to make a big bang, Johnny-halfwit.

You have taken a fact of truth and warped it to your own perspective, why dont you give others the chance to work things out for themselves, you seem to be the only fanatic around here.

I am sorry for you that you cant take part reasonably in a reasonable debate. Do everyone a favour and go and find the love of a good woman...or man, whatever you're into.

kiss_the_sky

10-10-2005, 01:32 PM

yazzer

10-18-2005, 09:28 AM

Yes you can wear it. Hijab simply means practicing modesty. It's just a scarf on your head. No biggie.

yazzer

10-18-2005, 09:31 AM

Yes, exactly. My grandmother did have to wear something over her head when she was young.
By veil they may simply mean cloak or something. Dress. If Shakespeare's english doesn't often mean what it looks like to most people, how can something that is thousands of years old be taken literally? What veil means today may not literally mean what it does today. I just think it's all very ambiguous and relative...

jonny2mad

11-11-2005, 01:47 AM

zaffydoo you have the concept of right hand possession where muslims could rape female captives.

you have mohammed having sex and marrying a 8 year old

you have him making people into slaves and and torturing people how have I warped the historical record .

I suppose its hard to defend his behavior thats why muslims get so violent to people who point out what a very nasty man he was but that doesnt change the facts of his life and actions .

and Im giving people the chance to hear both sides of the story you can tell them what a wonderful man mohammed was.

I will tell them that he married a 8 year old, then it will be up to them to judge whether they want to follow a man who was sexually attracted to children .

you can tell them how mercyful allah and mohammed are

I will tell them about mohammed having peoples eyes put out and their hands and feet cut off and watching them crawl about a desert till they died or people being cruicified which is a punishment in islam .

EwokUtopia

01-09-2006, 05:14 AM

Another enlightening statement by our very own junior Pat Robertson...

jonny2mad

01-10-2006, 06:51 AM

thank you ewok if there is any detail in my post that you wish for me to explain using the historical evidence I can do so.

if you track back over my posts you will see that I have provided sahih (authentic) haddiths that mohammed was a pedophile for example , enjoyed torturing people was a slaver ect ect .

sahih haddith are the top source of islamic history without them muslims wouldnt have the sunnah or the path to show them how to do things like pray ect ect

Ive read the bible about 34 times can recite lots of it from memory, and can put a good case that thats false too, so I dont think as a atheist I would be that popular with pat robinson senior

Erasmus70

01-11-2006, 09:51 AM

I have to say - it always surprises me a little bit to know Johny2mad is an Atheist (or at least an Agnostic) because I find a lot more ability to comprehend the issues and concepts than I see in most of the Internet 'Atheists' who crap about in internet forums.

I will say this much - Muhammed is most definately a Pedophile if you accept the Haddiths which are explicit and clear about this.
Having said that..
When I bring this up with Muslims, Im usually told this is total nonsense and they do not accept these Hadiths as anything more than fictional stories and are not to be taken along with the Koran.

jonny2mad

01-12-2006, 01:29 AM

thank you erasmus

you need to tell them that one of the main people who told us about mohammed was aisha (in fact one of the arguments for marrying her so young was that she had such a good memory and was able to remember so much ).
she was seen as a great source, as well as being the person involved in these specif haddith .

if they dont believe in aishas young marriage, they are rejecting haddith in at least two of the most respected books of haddith , haddith that have been seen as sahih authentic for many centurys .

really if they think that it could happen that these are false pretty much anything could have happened including miss-transmission of the quran .

without the haddith you have no or very little early islamic history , you dont have the sunnah .

aisha marriage is a tricky thing for muslims and I dont mind which way they play it if they reject that it ever happened you have the effect that would have on other scripture and doctrine .

if they accept it mohammed was a pedophile

interesting
http://www.secularislam.org/research/origins.htm

heron

01-12-2006, 06:22 PM

You cant label someone a pedophile if marriage to girls so young is the social norm.
Mohammed did nothing unusual, and cant be singled out. The whole country were pedophiles for that matter.

Joseph was a pedophile too then huh?

EwokUtopia

01-12-2006, 07:10 PM

Aisha's age is also disputed, some say she was 9, but also some say she was 14. Muhammed didnt consumate the marriage immediatly, and that age was much larger than it is now. consider the fact the the average life span was no greater than about 30, therefore making 15 middle aged. It was also the norm of most societies to men as old as Muhammed to marry women as young as Aisha, which makes sense if you consider the way of life back then. it was brutally violent, and many men were killed before adulthood, those that survived had the pleasure of marriage. they had to marry young women so they could have as many children as possible so that some would survive, and humanity could continue. this was not just the arabs, but everyone. when muhammed and islam came about, these harsh conditions became far less dire, consider the status of the pre-islamic arabs, they had little and were divided into ruthless tribes. After Muhammed, the Arabs became the most advanced society in the world, giving the world countless advances in mathematics, science, and especially medicine. is Muhammed just a lucky coincidence?

jonny2mad

01-13-2006, 04:20 AM

I could say she was 90 ,she says in her own words in lots of places that she married when she was 8 thats the most widely accepted age, but if you want to say shes a different age you have to accept that that calls into question just about everything in the haddith and destroys the sunnah.

Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3310: 'Aisha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88 Narrated 'Urwa: The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64 Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).

Sahih Bukhari 8:151, Narrated 'Aisha: "I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet , and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)

Sahih Bukhari vol. 5, Book 58, Number 234 Narrated 'Aisha: The prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six. We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Harith Kharzraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became all right, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage).

Other hadith in Bukhari repeat this information.
you also have mohammed dreaming about her being brought to him carried wrapped up, which makes me think hes thinking of a very young child .

and if joseph married a little child as young as 6 he was a pedophile to .

one of the things you need to take into account is that mohammed is seen as the last prophet and someone who people follow in every detail of his life .

so for example muslims cut their beard like mohammed pray like him and his example of having sex with children is also followed in many countrys .
khomeni I think had a 12 year old wife , I can think of some other clerics who are being tlked to today as moderate in the west who have child wives .

jonny2mad

01-13-2006, 04:26 AM

and mohammed didnt advance the arabs at the moment me and some friends are setting up a site that de-bunks these popular myths .

basically islam held back all the people who were conquered by it ,achievements that are claimed to be islamic came mostly from the countrys that muslims conquered and enslaved .

when the sites finished I will put up links and also links to sites that promote the wonders of "islamic" science and culture and you can make up your own mind

EwokUtopia

01-13-2006, 09:41 PM

ok, Socrates, Plato, Alexander, and many many more from the classical age are peadophiles too by modern standards. should we throw away their accomplishments as well?

EwokUtopia

01-13-2006, 09:44 PM

Where does your hatred of Islam stem from, jonny? why do you not tolerate the beliefs of muslim people? you dont, because you keep on putting numerous posts up basically calling what a 6th of the world believes as evil and false.

yazzer

01-14-2006, 09:02 AM

AMEN!!

You cant label someone a pedophile if marriage to girls so young is the social norm.
Mohammed did nothing unusual, and cant be singled out. The whole country were pedophiles for that matter.

Joseph was a pedophile too then huh?

jonny2mad

01-18-2006, 06:02 AM

When you believe in a religion you have a number of things that appear to you to be signs or proofs that the religion and its prophets are genuine, but I believe what you need to do is also make up a list of things that put the case that what your being told is false and the religion is fake.

You need to have critical thinking

As I understand it Socrates, Plato, Alexander, are not held up as examples of the most moral man, they didn’t claim to be the last prophet or prophets at all.

If you wish to disprove Mohammed’s claim to be a prophet you have to look for things like a lack of foresight, how could he not know that marrying a 6 year old would be thought questionable in the future if he was a prophet.

also how could Allah choose such a man and encourage him to marry a little child , is this best practice for all time, if its not what does it say about Allah’s judgement .

I would say looking at biology and psychological development that a child of 6 is two young to get married to a man in his 50s, I wouldn’t want my 6 year old daughter marrying a man that old.

If marrying little children when your old enough to be their grandfather isn’t best practice now and for all time, why did Allah get Mohammed to do it .

years ago people enjoyed watching gladiatorial combat even if it was popular to do so at the time, what would it say about a god who chose someone who enjoyed watching people kill each other people for his last prophet .

Wouldn’t it be saying that god approved of people watching people kill each other for other people’s amusement.

it isn’t just the marrying a little child when he was a old man , he also made it a rule that none of his former wives should re-marry aisha was 18 when he died and spent the rest of her life alone .

Joseph is a minor character in Christian theology imagine if it said in the new testament that jesus had had a sexual relationship with a child of six and you have some idea of the importance of the relationship between mohammed and aisha and yet you don’t hear that much about it , it’s the skeleton in the closet .

you also have his example as a man who traded in slaves …….is slavery best practice should keeping and buying and selling slaves be legal today if not why didn’t allah choose someone who didn’t buy and sell people .

Why didn’t he at some point say no more keeping slaves no more buying and selling them

The weak haddith defence that trys to disprove Mohammed’s marriage to a girl old enough to be his grand daughter

Doesn’t hold up

Sahih Al-Bukhari and Sahih Muslim collections are considered to be authentic historical records by orthodox Muslims. So, a weak hadith defence is unjustified when these sources are used to critique Muhammad sayings and behaviour.

A weak hadith technically refers to the chain of narrators (isnad), reputation of the narrators, and the text of narration (matn). Even if there were a technical flaw in a hadith, it does not necessarily mean that the hadith is not an authentic one. Authenticity and weakness are two different concepts.

The Qur'an has less technical support for its authenticity than do many hadiths. Yet, it is considered authentic by traditional Muslims. So, if an historical saying must be rejected because it is technically weak, then much of the Qur'an would have to be rejected too.

Some Muslims use the weak hadith defence, because they approach Muhammad with their own wishful presuppositions. So, they automatically reject any hadith that does not meet the standard of their uncritical assumptions. Our beliefs should be grounded in historical reality: not wishful assumptions.

The third standard (matn) to judge the authenticity of a hadith is an illegitimate standard. Present-day beliefs don't determine the events of the past. )

I live in the uk and British Muslims hounded a British author into hiding back in the 1980s I had the "pleasure" to be caught up in a demonstration against Salman Rushdie, I have never seen so much pure hatred in my life .

I see Islam as a target first because Islam attacked salman Rushdie in my country and therefore effected my freedom of speech , also apart from Rushdie Muslims have been killing other critics of Islam for example Theo van Gogh in Europe

That and the Iranian revolution where some of my best friends had to leave Iran, because you had the introduction of sheria law, made me see something of what Islam is and that even if I live in somewhere like the uk Im going to be effected by it .

The more I looked into Islam the worse things became, in the Islamic world you have widespread discrimination against non-Muslims where you don’t it isn’t because of the influence of Islam because Islam of its self promotes discrimination against non Muslims .

The end goal is the destruction of the non Muslim world , this can be achieved in many ways offensive war or the gradual islamisation of society .

Really I should set up a thread on the concept of dhimmitude and the dhimmi and the treatment of religious minority’s in Islamic country’s because it’s a very big subject to go into.

You ask me to be tolerant of Muslims beliefs in their scripture they kill people for just not believing in god or Mohammed being a prophet, so why the hell should I respect their beliefs

Quite a number of my friends who are ex-Muslim have to pretend to still be Muslim in case they are killed by Muslims often by members of their own family, in lots of Islamic countries it is illegal to convert to another religion, or to preach another religion or lack of religion to a Muslim you can be killed for doing so.

if they show no tolerance why should they expect any

You have the mass media that’s happy to spread the lie that Islam is basically peaceful and all the terrorism has nothing to do with the religion at all, but war and killing critics of Mohammed has always been a part of Islam

But the terrorism is just part of what’s going on there is also the constant war to impose Islamic law and to gradually islamise society that if anything is more dangerous.

tonny2happy

01-25-2006, 07:35 AM

Hello every one,

This is my 1st post in this forum. I hope we will get along and understand each other better.
I have been reading through and I found many ppl made just statment about Islam, yet, they are not muslims but they actuelly have seen this goodness through the acts of muslims.
Now every one should be awear that also muslims may be the reason why u missjudge this relegion.

I'm Muslim and I respect the right of any one to say whatever he/she want to say. although it has been implied several times in previous posts that as a Muslim I'm supposed to be intolerent, rejecting ppls right to talk, critique creativly and just deny other's right of anything except being muslim!!!.

I'm not this stupid and my relegion doesn't teach me so.

I'm not a scholar of Islam nor I'm in Islamic studies. and I'm not gonna be working on this forum day and night bcz basicly i have no time for this. But I believe I have enough knoledge about my relegion to defend against points that have been rosen against islam and to live my life in an Islamic way that is affecting my life positively and hopefully in the hereafter .

I hope ppl see that Muslims actuelly think creativly and they aren't stupid to follow a relegion as described in this forum. it is hard to say there are 1.6 billion stupid beings on the earth.

I'm not willing to stay in a long term argument here. I want a creative discussion where some one can accept the fact that he/she was wrong and got benifit of the discussion. This is my ambition in this forum and i hope i reach it.

Jonny2mad, I think creatively about my relegion and I'm not muslim because i was told to be so or because i would have been killed otherwise. I live in Canada and I could have lift Islam very safely if i wanted to:

I would say looking at biology and psychological development that a child of 6 is two young to get married to a man in his 50s, I wouldn’t want my 6 year old daughter marrying a man that old. The prophet -peace be upon him- didn't marry Aisha when she was 6 but rather god told him that she is going to be his wife (chose her for him if u will) when she was at that age and thus he told her and her father. so she was kind of engaged to him. and it was only till she -may god be pleased with her- reached pubirty at the age of 9 when he married her.
and if u don't belive she reached pubirty at that age then you lack scientific knowledge. if she had have reached it after that she would have been older than nine when actuelly got marrid
and as you were saying, a man in the 50's shouldn't have a desire towards a girl in her age. (for certain wisdom god chose her for his prophet)

Lets think creativly then.
Who was Aisha?? she is the one that narrated the highest number of the Hadiths of the prophet -peace be upon him- more than all the other companians men and women except Abo Hurayra. She is the one who tought the generation of the great scholars of Islam after the prophit's death, men and women...

he also made it a rule that none of his former wives should re-marry aisha was 18 when he died and spent the rest of her life alone . ... she was the only one of the prophet's wives who Quran was revealed to the prophet in her house. she is a mother of the believers and thats why no one can marry her afterward or any of the mothers of the believers -prophet's wives-. Now, Mohammad -peace be upon him- didn't prevent them himself!! God told him and they were told this before they get married and they accepted. you should remeber that they were convinced he was a prophit. It is because of their honour and high place among the Muslims and because of the tremndous respect and love to the prophet that muslim men wouldn't feel comfortable even if it was allowed to marry them after his death. imagine this happened you could have been talking about it in this forum now?!
if u analyse, she was 18 when the prpphet died. so she lived so long after him and tought so much of Islam that is brought to us today. which i think was the wisdom of the prophet marrying her in young age _not 6 though_ which was known by god. something i learn from this is men get to be tought by woman so they actuelly have the right learn and teach men. and they do have to learn and be educated.

and you have some idea of the importance of the relationship between mohammed and aisha and yet you don’t hear that much about it , it’s the skeleton in the closet . Aisha is the one whom the prophet said about "Aisha" when he was asked; who do you love the most? by one of the companians. she told us how the prophet used to clean his own clothes, fix his shoe, help her in home things and take care of her.

if you really wanna get something out of this read about Aisha (I'm suggesting non-anti-islamic sources)... she played with him, raced him, disagreed with him in life issues -peace be upon him-. she wasn't a skeleton in a closet!!!, there are peapl who converted to Islam because they have been studying the life of the prophet from his wives' prospective arguing that if he was acting he was a prophet then his wives should know he is not because usually wives are the ones that know mostly all the hidden things of their husbands. The prophet was the 1st one to give wives the name "lord of the house" and it is used now even by non-muslims in arabia.

Wouldn’t it be saying that god approved of people watching people kill each other for other people’s amusement. who said this!! God did!?!? if there is a god as i believe, then he doesn't. get me a place in the quran where god says im pleased to see u kill each other....When u do, bring them in their context. cz Islam also teaches how to purify ur deads even if u r a soldire in a war. if u bring any thing from the quraan in their context i will not need to add anything. Indeed god say in a vurse in the Quran that i dont remember letrally which means if u kill someone without a reason it is as if you have killed all humans which means it is as bad as if u have killed all humans. hope is clear

And don't tell me that my relegion is a barbarian one because some ppl were killing each other. Islam doesn't say so.

you also have his example as a man who traded in slaves …….is slavery best practice should keeping and buying and selling slaves be legal today if not why didn’t allah choose someone who didn’t buy and sell people .
The whole msg of Islam is about worshipping none but god. being a slave only for god.. Freeing humans from all kind of slaverity. begining from idolitry to even humilating an animal.
if u analyse: during that time, the world's biggest trade was slaverity. and what Islam did is in many places in the Quran.....free a slave, free a slave...if u do this sin or that and u wanna getrid of it, free a slave...you want high rewards, free a slave...and ppl weren't allowed to humilate their slaves by any means!! and the name slave was changed to mawla which means someone who works for someone else. AND the most important point is if that mawla brought the price he/she was bought by his/her master, he MUST free them by islamic law. and proudly i say Islam tought us that slaverty is only for god even way before ppl got more reasonable and stop slaverity. i would doubt if you were rich at that time and you weren't a good muslim you would have slave working for you. well America for example had slaverity not so far from now!! I hope it is clear now

A weak hadith technically refers to the chain of narrators (isnad), reputation of the narrators, and the text of narration (matn). Even if there were a technical flaw in a hadith, it does not necessarily mean that the hadith is not an authentic one. Authenticity and weakness are two different concepts. This is how it goes:
a weak Hadith is the one that didn't have the criteria of being authintic or even good Hadith. mainly because of the Isnad which means some of the narrators was missing in the chain. or some of them was known to be a lier. and there is a whole feild of study of identifying Hadiths and narrators. you can enroll in one of them and only then you can defferintiate for sure between authintic and week.
week doesnt mean authintic nor good, which are the only ones Muslims use. for the Islamic laws ONLY athintic are used. while week and mawdooa' which is (lied) aren't accepted at all.

The Qur'an has less technical support for its authenticity than do many hadiths. Qura'an was trasferred to us by hearts!! How: Quran was actuelly allowed for ppl and it was memorised even by youg children since it was revieled. in the same order ordered by god. it was collected in one book after the prophets death because of the need of copies of quran as it was on seperate sheats (wood or leather) at his time.
it is not comparable to the Hadith issure because there might be hadiths that only one companian is awear of, may be a coversation between him and the prophet -peace be upon him-. and throught the prophets life there are many things that he said and did and because the Hadith is (what the prophet said, did or accepted), there are lots of them that are not known by all ppl. so lots of rules and techniques were developped to identify what the prophet said for sure and what is not. while in the case of the quraan, lots of ppl have it all in heart.

Really I should set up a thread on the concept of dhimmitude and the dhimmi and the treatment of religious minority’s in Islamic country’s because it’s a very big subject to go into. the arabic word themmi means someone on your responsibility. some one on your themma means someone on your responsibilty. these are non-muslims cetizin of different islamic impires. they pay special taxes as u said in one of ur previous posts once every year for those who are able to pay..where muslims had and exact similar thing and some time they paymore because muslims have to pay 2.5% of mony that havent been used for a year to be given to poor which is the tradition of Zakat. while themmies only pay a fixed amount of money which want a big number.
The second Khalif, Omar bin alkhattab was walking in Almadinah and he saw an old jewish man asking for money and when he was asked by Omar he replied cz i want to pay the jezya which is what themmies pay. and since then Omar stopped it on ppl who aren't able to work and they got to be paied a salary from the mony of the Zakat and jezyah justlike retirement now. Now where does the Themma the responsibilty come? it is that you get protected you, your relegion, property and degnity. if these weren't accomplished then by Islamic laws a themmi person should get his mony back and this is exactly what happened with the jews in Syria when it was concored by crusadors, themoney was sent back to them with apologies of not being able to protect.
The prophet said " who ever kills a Moa'hid (thimmi) wont smill the smell of paradise for which its smell can be smelled froma distance of forty years" no.6516 Bukhari authintic Hadith book
so i hope it is clear.

In the Quran Allah -sobhanaho watala- says (No compulsion in the relegion) so if a Muslim at some point desided to be non-Muslims he/she is not to be killed. and if some ex-muslim's parents were feeling bad towards this, it is normal I no lots of new-Muslims who have been kicked out of their homes because of their choise so it doesn't have to do with muslims only and more importantly it doesnt have to do with Islam at all.
u mention a story earlier about a muslim leaving Islam is to be killed. This is completely Wrong and out of context as there was a special circumestance where it was the case at a short level of time and it was never applied and is never valid since after that ocassion.