Death and Heaven

[Bhaskar]

Why wait to die and then to enjoy the peace and joy of heaven? Bliss is available to each and every one of us, here and right now. It only requires the right attitude, a tuning of the mind, taming and focusing thoughts and senses. It is a great thing to develop dispassiona nd detachment in the world, where you find no more joy in the ephemeral pleasures that worldliness offers. It is totally something else to go through a life of constant supression of desires that are seething under the surface, making every moment miserable, in order to gain a reward in another life. Instead, through meditation and inner adjustment, if one can find inner joy, right here right now, there is no need of heaven, no need to undergo rituals and penances to gain merit. The true bliss of the immortal self is far far greater than any heaven, it is beyond the 3 worlds, it is the end of all strife, a magnificent, joyous union with the entire universe, the death of the all egocentric disturbances. We can join in the laughter of the stars, dance with the rivers and soar with the eagles. A life of divine recklessness beckons us. A human birth is rare indeed, let us not waste it.

[gdkumar]

Hare Krishna!

Dear Bhaskar,

Reading that was wonderful.
I have rejoined the hipforums after quite some time. It was nice to read all your posts written during my absence. It really gives me the divine pleasure to see you steadily making progress towards merging into the Ocean of eternal bliss.

Keep it(The good practices) up dear brother, your pujyapad Guruji will take care of the rest.

With love, best wishes and prayers,

Kumar.

[Bhaskar]

Any progress I may have made is only the blessing of Sri Rama, Kumarji. By myself, I am such a mass of kama, krodha and lobha, sometimes in moments of lucidity I feel quite disgusted with myself. Whatever good qualities I have are only Sri Rama's grace. Whatever negativity stems from my own inability to accept that fullt.

[Kharakov]

We can join in the laughter of the stars... A life of divine recklessness beckons us.
You mean the stars are laughing at us! What the hell. I say Kill 'em All. Fuck the stars.

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

You mean the stars are laughing at us! What the hell. I say Kill 'em All. Fuck the stars.
I know you're kidding...but its kind of funny that the same two lines jumped out at me....but in a different sence...that they were very poetic and beautiful...why wouldn't we want to laugh with the stars? Why wouldn't we want to live a life of freedom? It amazes me every waking day how this could all be just an illusion when it seams like a such a real thing...and it blows my mind at the intricate play we are all a part of.....its really an amazing thing when you pull away from it and look at the whole picture...

[Kilgore Trout]

It only requires the right attitude, a tuning of the mind, taming and focusing thoughts and senses.

I achieve this by playing hockey.

[yyyesiam2]

I respect you. I'm pretty stingy with that. it's not that what you said is a new idea to me-it's just that, at the time i read that, and the way you put it-brought a tear to a tin-man's eyes. Thank You.

[Bhaskar]

You're most welcome. God bless you.

[Art Delfo]

I belive you can blance both relitive happyness in this world wile still being about to have pure happyness after death

[Bhaskar]

What I am saying is you can find perfect inner peace and hippiness right now, which is something you will not lose after death, you will continue to abide int he same bliss, which is greater than heaven also.

[BlackBillBlake]

True enough, but as long as we have mortal bodies subject to suffering etc. can our bliss be total and complete? Even great masters have had physical suffering in this world.
Also, some Buddhist schools have the concept of the Bodhisattva, the enlightened one who knows that none can enter wholly into nirvana until all sentient beings are liberated. They (the mahayana schools) criticize the Theravada ideal of the Arhat, one who is seeking enlightenment for themself alone. In a sense, to seek to dwell in bliss in a world filled with sorrow and suffering could be seen as a desire for escape.
I think we can have an inner bliss and realization whilst we are living, but the full and complete ananda may await us after death. It may not be attainable fully whilst we are in this world.
For it to be so, every single person would have to be in this state, and arguably, the nature of matter itself would have to undergo a radical transformation.

[Kharakov]

True enough, but as long as we have mortal bodies subject to suffering etc. can our bliss be total and complete? If you realize why pain is Good.

Also, some Buddhist schools have the concept of the Bodhisattva, the enlightened one who knows that none can enter wholly into nirvana until all sentient beings are liberated.What about the knowledge that all sentient beings will be "liberated" within themselves at the proper time?

In a sense, to seek to dwell in bliss in a world filled with sorrow and suffering could be seen as a desire for escape.What about realising that the same sorrow and suffering are part of what lead to enlightenment? Does this not free you from worry about others? Care, but don't worry.

I think we can have an inner bliss and realization whilst we are living, but the full and complete ananda may await us after death. It may not be attainable fully whilst we are in this world.Maybe, maybe not. You don't need to speculate on what may be, you are in what is.

For it to be so, every single person would have to be in this state, and arguably, the nature of matter itself would have to undergo a radical transformation.No, every person would not have to be in the fully enlightened state, for the buddha reached enlightenment within the same framework we exist within. All you have to realize is that the way things are now are the way they have to be in order for people to reach enlightenment. If you hid an individual in pleasure/ blah blah blah (like the buddhas father attempted to do to him- thankfully, God would not allow it), they would not see the suffering that the buddha saw and would not become enlightened.

[Bhaskar]

True enough, but as long as we have mortal bodies subject to suffering etc. can our bliss be total and complete? Even great masters have had physical suffering in this world.

For a truly enlightened person, the body is like a vehicle, a car. So if your car has some engine trouble, does it make you writhe in pain? No. Same thing. To someone who no longer has any identification with either body or mind, where is the question of physical suffering at all?

I think we can have an inner bliss and realization whilst we are living, but the full and complete ananda may await us after death. It may not be attainable fully whilst we are in this world.
For it to be so, every single person would have to be in this state, and arguably, the nature of matter itself would have to undergo a radical transformation.
Why is that? I dont understand your logic.

[Bhaskar]

thinking about it, when you make that arguent, it seems like you are giving reality to this world. But the vedas clearly say jagat mithya, the world is false, it is likened to a dream. Once one wakes up the dream no onger exists. Similarly when one reaches enlightenment the world ceases to exist. After that the jeevan mukta walks through this world like a lucid dreamer, knowing that it is all an illusion, knowing that the entire dream world is but a prt of himself only. In such a state there is neither suffering not anger, only joy.

[gdkumar]

Hare Krishna !

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

Great yogis and saints succeed but we fail everytime. When there is a pain we cannot isolate our mind and we suffer.

Love,

Kumar.

[BlackBillBlake]

thinking about it, when you make that arguent, it seems like you are giving reality to this world. But the vedas clearly say jagat mithya, the world is false, it is likened to a dream. Once one wakes up the dream no onger exists. Similarly when one reaches enlightenment the world ceases to exist. After that the jeevan mukta walks through this world like a lucid dreamer, knowing that it is all an illusion, knowing that the entire dream world is but a prt of himself only. In such a state there is neither suffering not anger, only joy.
Dear Bhaskar-
Not me not thee but God or the Mother gives this world its reality. It is not that when we see the Divine this world will just disappear like a puff of smoke. Or, if it does, it will soon reappear in the consciousness. If our vision of the world is false, that is another thing - but the world is a form of the Divine.

But I feel that I need to say more to address the other points you make, and to explain the basis of what I said.
I'm not denying that an inner liberation and enligtenment is possible - there are numerous exemplars of this. But your post seemed to say that whilst still here on earth, we can know the full bliss of 'heaven' (I use the word advisedly, and by it I suppose a realm of perfect manifestation would be indicated). That is where I differ.
How can the fact that the body of even the most perfect saints is subject to disease, suffering and death be equated with a perfect manifestation of the Divine? In a perfect manifestation, all would be perfect. There would be no limitations, and certainly no death.
Nor could this be the condition of only a limited number of beings within such a manifestation. One couldn't have, under 'heavenly' conditions, a situation where one man enjoys Divine Ananda, whilst another gets aids, dies in an horrific road crash, or indeed suffered from any imperfection whatsoever.

For the kingdom of heaven to come on earth fully would mean a collective enlightenment and liberation, and a transformation of the basic conditions of existence here.
Theses areas are fully extrapolated in many works by Sri Aurobindo, such as 'The Life Divine' 'The Supramental manifestation on Earth' 'The Synthesis of Yoga' and many other books. All I can do is recommend them to you if you are interested in this view.

[BlackBillBlake]

Kharakov - If you realize why pain is Good.
Why is it good for a person to experience pain - a baby, say? What value in such pain, esp. if the baby later dies? It gets no chance to learn anything at all from the experience.


What about the knowledge that all sentient beings will be "liberated" within themselves at the proper time?

What about realising that the same sorrow and suffering are part of what lead to enlightenment? Does this not free you from worry about others? Care, but don't worry.

It may lead you to enlightenment perhaps, but that doesn't mean one enjoys 'heavenly' conditions fully here on earth.


Maybe, maybe not. You don't need to speculate on what may be, you are in what is.


If no-one ever speculated not much progress would be made would it? What is seems pretty f****d up to me in many ways, so I'm interested in how things might be improved. In what could and may be.


No, every person would not have to be in the fully enlightened state, for the buddha reached enlightenment within the same framework we exist within. All you have to realize is that the way things are now are the way they have to be in order for people to reach enlightenment. If you hid an individual in pleasure/ blah blah blah (like the buddhas father attempted to do to him- thankfully, God would not allow it), they would not see the suffering that the buddha saw and would not become enlightened.

But I assume that in heaven all would be enlightened - there can be no question of the denizens of the higher worlds needing to seek enlightenment! That's the whole point. If this world is a kind of 'assault course', which if traversed successfully leads to enlightenment, then clearly, it can't be equated with a perfect realm, which is what I assume is meant by 'heaven'.
Otherwise your probably quite right that pain/pleasure etc are there to help make us wake up.

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

But I feel that I need to say more to address the other points you make, and to explain the basis of what I said.
I'm not denying that an inner liberation and enligtenment is possible - there are numerous exemplars of this. But your post seemed to say that whilst still here on earth, we can know the full bliss of 'heaven' (I use the word advisedly, and by it I suppose a realm of perfect manifestation would be indicated). That is where I differ.
How can the fact that the body of even the most perfect saints is subject to disease, suffering and death be equated with a perfect manifestation of the Divine? In a perfect manifestation, all would be perfect. There would be no limitations, and certainly no death.
Nor could this be the condition of only a limited number of beings within such a manifestation. One couldn't have, under 'heavenly' conditions, a situation where one man enjoys Divine Ananda, whilst another gets aids, dies in an horrific road crash, or indeed suffered from any imperfection whatsoever.

For the kingdom of heaven to come on earth fully would mean a collective enlightenment and liberation, and a transformation of the basic conditions of existence here.
Theses areas are fully extrapolated in many works by Sri Aurobindo, such as 'The Life Divine' 'The Supramental manifestation on Earth' 'The Synthesis of Yoga' and many other books. All I can do is recommend them to you if you are interested in this view.
I was the under the impression that it was very possible to achieve 'heaven on earth' for once you are truly enlightened...does not the illusion melt away from you? I remember reading in one of Paramahansa Yogananda's books (and I think I saw something similar a few other places...including the Bhagavad-Gita) that once you are truly enlightened (like a sage or a yogi) that you could be in a state where you see everything in its astrial form...where nothing physical means anything to you...that even if you suffer from illness or death that it is not suffering at all because you are not attached to it.....

I think its very possible to have heaven on earth if you are constantly striving for it... I think the example that Paramahansa Yogananda uses is St. Francis of Assi...that although he had many diseases, he was no affect by them...that he still had ever new bliss...

Maybe I'm missing your argument...but...um...that's all I have to say on the subject I suppose. :)

[BlackBillBlake]

I was the under the impression that it was very possible to achieve 'heaven on earth' for once you are truly enlightened...does not the illusion melt away from you? I remember reading in one of Paramahansa Yogananda's books (and I think I saw something similar a few other places...including the Bhagavad-Gita) that once you are truly enlightened (like a sage or a yogi) that you could be in a state where you see everything in its astrial form...where nothing physical means anything to you...that even if you suffer from illness or death that it is not suffering at all because you are not attached to it.....

I think its very possible to have heaven on earth if you are constantly striving for it... I think the example that Paramahansa Yogananda uses is St. Francis of Assi...that although he had many diseases, he was no affect by them...that he still had ever new bliss...

Maybe I'm missing your argument...but...um...that's all I have to say on the subject I suppose. :)
Let me try to explain. It seems that even the greatest realized beings here on earth look around them and see the suffering of others. Christ, Buddha, Ramakrishna - and so many others testify to this.
So - such a realized or enlightened being may enjoy Divine bliss here and now, and after death that experience will continue. Such a being may be afflicted - Ramakrishna had throat cancer for example, but the inner realization may give them detachment from their pain. But still, the body passes away.
We ourselves through pursuit of a spiritual path may come to know some of this inner realization and bliss - but still, we will grow old and eventually the body will die.

I was taking 'heaven' to mean a realm of being where none is in ignorance but all are in perfect knowledge and bliss, and this happy condition is eternal - there can be no death or suffering in heaven.

Some suggest that a greater perfection could become manifest here in this world than is currently possible. The Bible has the 'New Creation', and the establishment of a worldly paradise as its final act. In modern times, Sri Aurobindo and others have suggested that a transformation of the world and human life through the manifestation of a higher Divine principle of being could be the goal of terrestrial evolution. Death, ignorance, suffering and so on would cease to exist in such a world.
Hope that helps clarify what I mean.

[Kharakov]

Why is it good for a person to experience pain - a baby, say? What value in such pain, esp. if the baby later dies? It gets no chance to learn anything at all from the experience. But it did. The baby experienced pain and learned something. Even if what is learned is not completely understood at the time, it is still a necessary component of the baby's learning. Imagine being taught to differentiate without knowing the applications of differentiation, does this make knowing how to differentiate any less useful when the time comes for you to use it?

It may lead you to enlightenment perhaps, but that doesn't mean one enjoys 'heavenly' conditions fully here on earth. God knows everything that is happening on earth. God experiences heavenly conditions. God knows that what happens on earth is good for the beings upon the planet, for God planned it to be this way.

If no-one ever speculated not much progress would be made would it? What is seems pretty f****d up to me in many ways, so I'm interested in how things might be improved. In what could and may be.
Speculating on something you cannot know until you experience it will not lead you to any solid answers. Speculating about whether or not one can reach ananda while living on the earth is simply speculation.

But I assume that in heaven all would be enlightened - there can be no question of the denizens of the higher worlds needing to seek enlightenment! I don't get it. God is obviously enlightened, blissful, yet interacts with this world to bring others up into a similar state of bliss. Are you saying that creating a new being to be enlightened infringes upon God's bliss, even though God knows that pain is required for the persons enlightenment?

That's the whole point. If this world is a kind of 'assault course', which if traversed successfully leads to enlightenment, then clearly, it can't be equated with a perfect realm, which is what I assume is meant by 'heaven'.I don't see why it can't be equated with a perfect realm. It is perfect in that it enlightens those it is designed to enlighten. Just because new children keep popping up to teach and to learn from does not mean the world is lacking in perfection. Unenlightened beings are part of the worlds perfection. They show were we come from to those who are enlightened, and those who are enlightened know that others will become enlightened at the proper time.

Dinner TIME!!!! Yeahh!!

[BlackBillBlake]

Dear Kharakov - Hope you enjoyed the meal, experiencing full heavenly delight in it ;)


I see your arguments - my response right now is to say that I guess all this discussion rests on what we define as 'heaven' and 'perfection'.
In my book, heaven is a realm where there is no suffering, and no functional necessity for it, as you say ( and I agree ) there is here. Furthermore - beings existing in heaven are immortal - not in the sense of the inner soul being immortal as many assert it is in humans, but fully immortal in body too.
Hence, I don't think we can experience full heavenly existence here, other poerhaps, than in a temporary trance or state of mystic absorption, or something like that.
Thats not to say we can't experience it in some measure, even in great measure - but I can't see a world of suffering, imperfection and death as perfect, no matter how enlightened/blissful/pneumatic (!) we may become.
Maybe after death we may be able to enter a higher world permanantly.
I know this view is not shared by some - they think that our ultimate destiny is to be dissolved back into the Divine source, ceasing in effect to exist as individual beings. Others believe in a personal immortality in a higher world.(or a lower one!) It seems to me that we can only arrive at either of these outcomes fully after death.

[Bhaskar]

You think bodily discomfort, phyiscal discomfort impinges in any way on the bliss of an enlightened one? The ananda of the self is beyond heaven, beyond your "perfect world."


If you understand my analogy of the dream and the lucid dreamer, you would see what Im saying, that the trials of this world completely fail to hurt or impinge on the bliss of the Master.

Only a fool cries if his clothes are ripped. Doesnt Krishna teach that the body is like another garment? We dont mourn for the giving up of old clothes.

[BlackBillBlake]

You think bodily discomfort, phyiscal discomfort impinges in any way on the bliss of an enlightened one? The ananda of the self is beyond heaven, beyond your "perfect world."


If you understand my analogy of the dream and the lucid dreamer, you would see what Im saying, that the trials of this world completely fail to hurt or impinge on the bliss of the Master.

Only a fool cries if his clothes are ripped. Doesnt Krishna teach that the body is like another garment? We dont mourn for the giving up of old clothes.
In heaven we won't have to give up bodies - thats my point. And even the enlightened one's here don't have complete control over the body or it's functions. Their bodies are still subject to death and dissolution.

It's not a matter of pain impinging on the consciousness of the Seer really - or not their own pain. But the pain of others perhaps? If one replies that the Seer is unaffected by that, then clearly such a one must lack compassion.
When Jesus was killed though, it is recorded that he did suffer pain, until he had lost the Divine consciousness, and cried out 'Father why hast thou forsaken me?'

As to your assertion that 'the ananda of the self is beyond (my) perfect world' - this is pure dogma. How could you know that? I spoke of the higher supramental planes of existence spoken of by Sri Aurobindo. Unless you are aquainted at least with Sri A's statements about these planes, it seems unwise to be so dismissive.

I don't buy into the idea, as I said before, that this world is unreal or purely illusory. Our consciousness of it may be unreal, delusory, limited ,ignorant - but nonetheless, I believe that the universe is a reality. So for me, the dream/dreamer analogy has a slightly different significance.

[Kharakov]

Dear Kharakov - Hope you enjoyed the meal, experiencing full heavenly delight in it ;) Was awesome. Then I took a little nap/meditation, asked God for boobies, hot boobies to suck on, and now it is time to prepare to go out, after checking the forums.

In my book, heaven is a realm where there is no suffering, and no functional necessity for it, as you say ( and I agree ) there is here. Ahh, so like my parents, you dream of a world without children, so you can get your groove on without having to explain everything in minute detail.

Furthermore - beings existing in heaven are immortal - not in the sense of the inner soul being immortal as many assert it is in humans, but fully immortal in body too.Does this mean their body never changes? I dunno, I am sorta into trying out a bunch of different forms, except fly, I don't think I want to be a fly because I wouldn't want to have any left over attraction to poop in my system after I became another form. You know, I don't need any conflicting desires like "Eat poop/ don't eat poop". Maybe an immortal soul is better cuz you get to try the different forms (bodies) that are appropriate for you to wear at different levels of existence (until you are ready to decide which forms you like for yourself- become a body connoisseur, so to speak).

Thats not to say we can't experience it in some measure, even in great measure - but I can't see a world of suffering, imperfection and death as perfect, no matter how enlightened/blissful/pneumatic (!) we may become. Huxley, enlightenment shows you that the world is perfect the way it is, you just have to acquire a taste for it like fine wines, coffee, or other stuff you did not have a palate for as a child.

It seems to me that we can only arrive at either of these outcomes fully after death.You're here now. Become a connoisseur of God.

[Art Delfo]

What I am saying is you can find perfect inner peace and hippiness right now, which is something you will not lose after death, you will continue to abide int he same bliss, which is greater than heaven also.
Thats inpossable this world is to dark and screwed up to have pure bliss here.Unless you go to pure darkness(But that gets you killed so I dont recamend it)

[BlackBillBlake]

Friend Kharakov-


It was God who led me to these views -

Huxley was right on one level - but a further stage of life in the future could still, nonetheless, be far superior and more 'divinized' than is currently so, as I'm sure old Aldous would readily allow.

Re 'heavenly bodies' immortality need not mean fixity of form.

Good luck with the boobies!!

[Kharakov]

It was God who led me to these views - I agreed, and then I sneezed.

Huxley was right on one level - but a further stage of life in the future could still, nonetheless, be far superior and more 'divinized' than is currently so, as I'm sure old Aldous would readily allow.You do not mean more apparently divinized? I think being enlightened lets me see the divinity of the current state of things. Not to say that things cannot be more pleasurable in the physical sense at the right time.

To taste the delicate intricacies of a fine wine you must first prepare your palate, don't smoke a cigarette right before you sip (unless the wine has an affinity for tobacco), don't eat spicy foods unless the wine is designed to be eaten with them. If you don't know enough to pick for yourself, let the sommelier choose for you. This way the appropriate wines can be given to you to develop your palate for future enjoyment. If you really trust the sommelier, you know that even if you don't enjoy something about the wine you taste, the sommelier gave it to you for a reason, (one reason is to teach you of the sharpness of the flavor that you did not like so that you appreciate the muted character of the flavor in the greatest wine).

And <tear rolls down cheek> no boobies for me, well, except for my Girlfriend.

[Bhaskar]

It's not a matter of pain impinging on the consciousness of the Seer really - or not their own pain. But the pain of others perhaps? If one replies that the Seer is unaffected by that, then clearly such a one must lack compassion.
When one dreams of people suffering, having woken up, it would be quite foolish to worry and fret for those people in the dream. Not compassionate.

As to your assertion that 'the ananda of the self is beyond (my) perfect world' - this is pure dogma. How could you know that? I spoke of the higher supramental planes of existence spoken of by Sri Aurobindo. Unless you are aquainted at least with Sri A's statements about these planes, it seems unwise to be so dismissive.
I know what you are speaking of. What I am saying, and there is more than enough scriptural backup for this statement, is that enlightenment is far beyond all these lokas, all these planes of existence.


I don't buy into the idea, as I said before, that this world is unreal or purely illusory. Our consciousness of it may be unreal, delusory, limited ,ignorant - but nonetheless, I believe that the universe is a reality. So for me, the dream/dreamer analogy has a slightly different significance.
Consciousness is infinite, it is not ours our theirs, it is consciousness, it is pure brahman. Consciousness callot be limited, delusory or ignorant. Those are the terrirory of the mind and how it uses consciousness.

The world of change is unreal by nature. Reality is something that exists at all times and to all observers. For example, sugar is sweet at all times to all those who taste sugar. However, the objects of this world change. Here today, gone tomorrow. The world is simply an accumulation of these changing objects. When something has changed from being A to being B, then A no longer exists. Therefore, how can one say that A is real? It does not exist. Its nature is not reality, it is not true, it is ephemeral. The world, being a collection of these ephemeral entities also takes on the same properties, being subject to time and decay, change and therefore at best a temporary existence. Being temporary, its nature is not reality. Hence the world is unreal.

In the scriptures is said to have vyavaharika satta, that is, for the sake of behavior it is considered real, just like the lucid dreamer knows his dream is unreal, yet he behaves and transacts with it within its framework.

[Bhaskar]

Thats inpossable this world is to dark and screwed up to have pure bliss here.Unless you go to pure darkness(But that gets you killed so I dont recamend it)
Your error, Art, is in assuming that bliss is dependant on the world in any way.

[BlackBillBlake]

When one dreams of people suffering, having woken up, it would be quite foolish to worry and fret for those people in the dream. Not compassionate.


Such indifference to the suffering of others on the grounds that it is illusory is wholly un-acceptable to me.It is a view redolent of a kind of 'fatalism' which leads only to inertia, and won't lift a finger to address the real difficulties of life. And you missed my point about Jesus death - he suffered and felt that God had left him. If one replies that he didn't really suffer, then the whole edifice of orthodox christianity collapses.
One who is content simply to attain liberation for themselves and relegate the existentially real suffering of others to the realm of illusion, is simply seeking a selfish escape from reality.


I know what you are speaking of. What I am saying, and there is more than enough scriptural backup for this statement, is that enlightenment is far beyond all these lokas, all these planes of existence.

This depends on which book you're using. Some say the world is an illusion, others that it is real. Some say the goal of religion, yoga etc is simply an escape from this world, others that the redemption of the material world is the goal.


Consciousness is infinite, it is not ours our theirs, it is consciousness, it is pure brahman. Consciousness callot be limited, delusory or ignorant. Those are the terrirory of the mind and how it uses consciousness.

And in that comtext, the mind set which says everything here is either perfect or illusion or fixed is simply a mental construction which may have been useful in the past, but offers very little for the future of humanity.Whether these views are expressed in scriptures or not, they are still only limited mental/linguistic constructions.



The world of change is unreal by nature. Reality is something that exists at all times and to all observers. For example, sugar is sweet at all times to all those who taste sugar. However, the objects of this world change. Here today, gone tomorrow. The world is simply an accumulation of these changing objects. When something has changed from being A to being B, then A no longer exists. Therefore, how can one say that A is real? It does not exist. Its nature is not reality, it is not true, it is ephemeral. The world, being a collection of these ephemeral entities also takes on the same properties, being subject to time and decay, change and therefore at best a temporary existence. Being temporary, its nature is not reality. Hence the world is unreal.

The sugar example is a most unfortunate one - because it doesn't taste sweet to a person with jaundice, as Srila Prabhupada was fond of telling us.
But where I really think you're wide of the mark is in saying that reality exists at all times to all observers. How does that square with this notion of an illusory world? Anyone observing such an illusion could hardly be said to be observing 'reality'.
Another point is that because a thing is not permanant, doesn't mean it isn't real. Change is real. Why shouild the term 'real' only be applied to the static?


In the scriptures is said to have vyavaharika satta, that is, for the sake of behavior it is considered real, just like the lucid dreamer knows his dream is unreal, yet he behaves and transacts with it within its framework.

If this world is an illusion, and our consciousness is actually perfect, then how did this illusion begin? How could a perfect consciousness become subject to illusion in the first place?

[Bhaskar]

Such indifference to the suffering of others on the grounds that it is illusory is wholly un-acceptable to me.It is a view redolent of a kind of 'fatalism' which leads only to inertia, and won't lift a finger to address the real difficulties of life. And you missed my point about Jesus death - he suffered and felt that God had left him. If one replies that he didn't really suffer, then the whole edifice of orthodox christianity collapses.
One who is content simply to attain liberation for themselves and relegate the existentially real suffering of others to the realm of illusion, is simply seeking a selfish escape from reality.

I am not saying that one doesnt help those who suffer. Every guru does just that. Every saint and mahatma does that. What I am saying is that you need not be disturbed by the suffering of others.

This depends on which book you're using. Some say the world is an illusion, others that it is real. Some say the goal of religion, yoga etc is simply an escape from this world, others that the redemption of the material world is the goal.
It is not escape, it is transcendence.


And in that comtext, the mind set which says everything here is either perfect or illusion or fixed is simply a mental construction which may have been useful in the past, but offers very little for the future of humanity.Whether these views are expressed in scriptures or not, they are still only limited mental/linguistic constructions.

As are all words, including compassion, love, joy, bliss, etc. Experience is knowledge.


The sugar example is a most unfortunate one - because it doesn't taste sweet to a person with jaundice, as Srila Prabhupada was fond of telling us.

Srila Prabhupada, with all due respect, is as much an authority on spirituality as a cook as taco bell is a mexican chef.

Wether or not sugar tastes good to a person, wehter or not it affects them for better or worse, that is npot the point. sugar tastes sweet to everyone. Oh and by the way I have had jaundice as a kid, so I do know that from experience.

But where I really think you're wide of the mark is in saying that reality exists at all times to all observers. How does that square with this notion of an illusory world? Anyone observing such an illusion could hardly be said to be observing 'reality'.
You failed to follow my reason pattern closely enough. Of course, they are not observing reality. When they turn their attention inwards and look at the self within, when they tune out all mental noise, then they experience reality. Reality in itelf is so all encompassing it cannot be observed, because to observe something you need an observer and an observed object. Reality is infinite, therefore there is nothing outside reality that can observe it. It can only be experienced within, in Unity.


Another point is that because a thing is not permanant, doesn't mean it isn't real. Change is real. Why shouild the term 'real' only be applied to the static?
Change is not real. Reality is avyayam, unchanging.


If this world is an illusion, and our consciousness is actually perfect, then how did this illusion begin? How could a perfect consciousness become subject to illusion in the first place?
Perfect consciousness is not subject to any illusion. The world was born out of the creative power of brahman in the same way a dream world is born out of the creative power of our mind. How did the waker become the dreamer? The dreamer is the same as the waker. If he is awake how did he come to dream? How do you come to identify with the person in the dream, knowing full well that you are the waking person?

[Bhaskar]

On Christ... His mind and body suffered greatly. His spirit remained as calm blissful and joyous as ever.

Infinity cannot be divided.

[BlackBillBlake]

I am not saying that one doesnt help those who suffer. Every guru does just that. Every saint and mahatma does that. What I am saying is that you need not be disturbed by the suffering of others.
It is not escape, it is transcendence. Escape into transcendence perhaps?




Srila Prabhupada, with all due respect, is as much an authority on spirituality as a cook as taco bell is a mexican chef.
A bold assertion! But you know I don't follow SP. He did know a thing or two though....



Wether or not sugar tastes good to a person, wehter or not it affects them for better or worse, that is npot the point. sugar tastes sweet to everyone. Oh and by the way I have had jaundice as a kid, so I do know that from experience.
What I'm saying is that our experience of one and the same thing can be different at different times, because of the subjetive nature of the mind, or the mental consciousness, or consciousness working through the mental instrument - however you want to phrase it.



You failed to follow my reason pattern closely enough. Of course, they are not observing reality. When they turn their attention inwards and look at the self within, when they tune out all mental noise, then they experience reality. Reality in itelf is so all encompassing it cannot be observed, because to observe something you need an observer and an observed object. Reality is infinite, therefore there is nothing outside reality that can observe it. It can only be experienced within, in Unity.
I don't think they'll ever 'see' the self within, because in reality, it is this self that sees.
But I think the problem is deeper than this.
To 'see' reality on this level is to 'be' reality.
But still, I see no reason to conclude that only the un-manifest , the immutable, the Akshara, is real. I feel that the cosmic manifestation is also real, although, as I said before, although I think you misunderstood, our consciosness of it may be false.



Change is not real. Reality is avyayam, unchanging.Why is this so? Why can't a thing be real and changing? If you say God can't change, that seems to impose a limit on the illimitable, does it not?


Perfect consciousness is not subject to any illusion. The world was born out of the creative power of brahman in the same way a dream world is born out of the creative power of our mind. How did the waker become the dreamer? The dreamer is the same as the waker. If he is awake how did he come to dream? How do you come to identify with the person in the dream, knowing full well that you are the waking person?
So - to retain any kind of logic here, a) the world is an illusion b) perfect consciousness cannot become subject to illusion.
That being so, what exactly is it that is experiencing the illusion? Imperfect consciousness?
The dream analogy is ok up to a point, but then, one would expect that on awakening, the dream would dissappear, which is clearly not the case, as realized masters continue to live in the illusion, and even to seek to change it.
There's also an inexactitude in the analogy because dreams it appears, are mainly productions of some kind of personal sub-conscious, although not all.The fact that we are beings with minds structured into conscious and unconscious areas is a product of our forms here. One can't legitimately posit the same of God - God has no sub-conscious or un-conscious.
I just can't see how the original, perfect superconsciousness could possibly have become subject to either a dream or an illusion.
The generation of an actual, real and existing world through the creative power seems more likely to me.


On Christ... His mind and body suffered greatly. His spirit remained as calm blissful and joyous as ever.

Infinity cannot be divided.
But he said the 'Father had forsaken him' - ie he was left to suffer as an ordinary man would suffer, without the consolation of the spirit.

Infinity cannot be divided according to human logic, but 'with God, all things are possible'.

Full marks though Bhaskar for this thread - another interesting one.

Blessings.

[Art Delfo]

Your error, Art, is in assuming that bliss is dependant on the world in any way.

look at all the pain and suffering here in this world.How could anyone have bliss when they know that this is happining?Yes no one could be turly happy that way.In my views you can have permnet pure bliss in the next life with god or you could just kill people make them suffer, worship the devil and become pure evil in this life,having pure bliss in that state and have god destroy you

[Bhaskar]

Happiness is not dependent on external conditions. It is not dependent on the world. Understand that.

[BlackBillBlake]

Happiness is not dependent on external conditions. It is not dependent on the world. Understand that.
Try telling that to a starving child.