Why not believe in Jesus?

[ryupower]

Hello! :)
Yes, I am Christian.
And no, This is not a direct flame at you guys. I'm greatful for Jews, for without them Christianity wouldn't exist.

So tell me: Why don't you believe in Jesus? Any particular reasons?

Just a curtousy(sp?) question...

[SilverClover14]

Why not believe in Jesus? Maybe because the Messiah (if there is such a thing) hasn't come yet...

Why don't you stop believing in Jesus? Any particular reasons? :p

[ryupower]

Why not believe in Jesus? Maybe because the Messiah (if there is such a thing) hasn't come yet...

Why don't you stop believing in Jesus? Any particular reasons? :pI believe Jesus is the Messiah. :p

[dhs]

Here's a question

Why believe in Jesus?

Outside of the stories you've read, give me one good reason why you should other than its what you have been raised to do.


I personally view Jesus in the same light as someone like Martin Luther King Jr or Ghandi - that he was a loving and kind man, a leader for the cause of humanity, but certainly not an immortal soul different from other humans.

[ryupower]

Here's a question

Why believe in Jesus?

Outside of the stories you've read, give me one good reason why you should other than its what you have been raised to do.


I personally view Jesus in the same light as someone like Martin Luther King Jr or Ghandi - that he was a loving and kind man, a leader for the cause of humanity, but certainly not an immortal soul different from other humans.
RAISED to do so?

My parants are New Agers! I was one. But I decided to follow Jesus, and they weren't happy about it. There are many reasons that convinced me.
If you want I'll list some.


But I'm asking the Jews. If you got a quetion to Christians, - post it in the christian forums! ;)

[dizzytizzy]

Jews believe that Jesus existed, just that he was not the messiah. I agree with dhs that he was a great guy, but as it's been state by many people before, if Jesus came around today, he wouldn't be viewed as a savior. No one believes anyone when they say they're the son of God, they just throw them in a mental institution.

[ZePpeLinA]

I personally view Jesus in the same light as someone like Martin Luther King Jr or Ghandi - that he was a loving and kind man, a leader for the cause of humanity, but certainly not an immortal soul different from other humans.
yes, i feel the same way about Jesus.

[the dauer]

I wouldn't be so quick to say Jesus was a great guy, or that Jesus wasn't. We have no dependable primary sources. The gospels are filled with polemic against the Jewish people and stories that both defy the laws of physics and either fit into the mythical patterns of the Helenic world (woman impregnated by a god etc) or the ones set in the tanach (three visitors, etc) but if it is valid, he still doesn't make the cut. This explains what the cut is:

http://www.kesser.org/moshiach/rambam.html

Dauer

[seamonster66]

Mostly I don't believe he was the son of god because the whole story is outrageous and makes no sense to me...the son of god?! What the hell, the father son and holy ghost? I thought Christianity was proudly monotheistic.

I can agree that he allegedly said and did some good things, if he ever really existed, and if all of his actions weren't completely made up and warped to fit the writers of the bibles' needs.

If Jesus were truly as the bible makes him seem, he would not support modern Christianity, he would be starting something new again.

[ryupower]

I wouldn't be so quick to say Jesus was a great guy, or that Jesus wasn't. We have no dependable primary sources. The gospels are filled with polemic against the Jewish people and stories that both defy the laws of physics and either fit into the mythical patterns of the Helenic world (woman impregnated by a god etc) or the ones set in the tanach (three visitors, etc) but if it is valid, he still doesn't make the cut. This explains what the cut is:

http://www.kesser.org/moshiach/rambam.html

Dauer FIANALLY! A Jew replying! :D

So you say that the virgin thing was impossible? Than Isaiah Must've been a bad prophet. ( ISA 7:14 )

Thanks for the reply BTW! :)

[the dauer]

FIANALLY! A Jew replying! :D

So you say that the virgin thing was impossible? Than Isaiah Must've been a bad prophet. ( ISA 7:14 )

Thanks for the reply BTW! :)

No problem. I think you are wondering who that child might be. This is one of the things that requires a little context. In Isaiah 7 in the days of Ahaz "bad stuff is going down" (see the text) so Isaiah goes to Ahaz and says:

.


4. And you shall say to him, "Feel secure and calm yourself, do not fear, and let your heart not be faint because of these two smoking stubs of firebrands, because of the raging anger of Rezin and Aram and the son of Remaliah.


5. Since Aram planned harm to you, Ephraim and the son of Remaliah, saying:


6. 'Let us go up against Judah and provoke it, and annex it to us; and let us crown a king in its midst, one who is good for us,'


7. So said the Lord God, 'Neither shall it succeed, nor shall it come to pass.


8. For the head of Aram is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and in another sixty-five years, Ephraim shall be broken, no longer to be a people.


9. And the head of Ehpraim is Samaria, and the head of Samaria is the son of Remaliah; if you do not believe, it is because you cannot be believed."


10. And the Lord continued to speak to Ahaz, saying,


11. "Ask for yourself a sign from the Lord, your God: ask it either in the depths, or in the heights above."

12. And Ahaz said, "I will not ask, and I will not test the Lord."


13. And he said, "Listen now, O House of David, is it little for you to weary men, that you weary my God as well?


14. Therefore, the Lord, of His own, shall give you a sign; behold, the young woman is with child, and she shall bear a son, and she shall call his name Immanuel.

He's giving Ahaz a sign. So it has to be within his lifetime. And:

16. For, when the lad does not yet know to reject bad and choose good, the land whose two kings you dread, shall be abandoned."

Ahaz is involved in a battle right now, and before this child is old enough to reject bad or choose good the land of the two kings(rezin and pekah) he dreads will be abandoned. This is covered in II Kings 15 and 16.

The child isn't as important as the time period it signifies, but the young woman has been suggested to be a close relationship to the prophet.

Dauer

[the dauer]

Also, there is no mention of the messiah there. And even if it was a messianic prophecy, fulfilling one doesn't cut it. Have to fulfil them all.

[ryupower]

Also, there is no mention of the messiah there. And even if it was a messianic prophecy, fulfilling one doesn't cut it. Have to fulfil them all. He fulfilled most of them. The ones about peace haven't been fulfilled. But that's why the book of revelation was written (NT, sorry), to prophecy the events before peace shall come. Which, according to it, seems pretty soon.

There's a warning there, that may deceive many, mind if I share? Or should we keep at the old testament?

Sorry for getting to the new testament...just thought I should oint out some things...peace!

I wasn't really concerned about who the child may have been...christians believe it was Jesus...therefore I do too...:)
I was just pointing out the whole virgin thing! ;)

If you've got questions about my reasoning, just ask! :)

[drumminmama]

because he was not the messiah.
(and what's up with the christians? they got their so-called messiah and they STILL want another? Greedy)

[Epiphany]

Ryupower, TheJesusDude is a great person to speak to on the subject. He was raised Jewish but accepted Christ as his savior and became a youth pastor.

[ryupower]

because he was not the messiah.
(and what's up with the christians? they got their so-called messiah and they STILL want another? Greedy)
We only want one. And he'll come back! Just you wait and see when all the people disappear! For no reason IYO! Hey- it may even happen this year! ;)

[cabdirazzaq]

This man acually fufills alot of prophecies from the OT yet you people reject him, do you not fear God at all?

[ryupower]

Ryupower, TheJesusDude is a great person to speak to on the subject. He was raised Jewish but accepted Christ as his savior and became a youth pastor. Thanks, friend! :)
errr...sibling! :D

[ryupower]

This man acually fufills alot of prophecies from the OT yet you people reject him, do you not fear God at all? Interesting that a Muslim popped in and said that! :eek: :eek:

Isn't, for you, Jesus just a Prophet? *thinks of an idea**plans to ask Muslims why they think he was just a Prophet* *gets in more trouble now.*

[Epiphany]

Thanks, friend! :)
errr...sibling! :D
Anytime sister :)

[Kilgore Trout]

Is it any less valid to believe that Jesus was an alien?

[cabdirazzaq]

Interesting that a Muslim popped in and said that! :eek: :eek:

Isn't, for you, Jesus just a Prophet? *thinks of an idea**plans to ask Muslims why they think he was just a Prophet* *gets in more trouble now.*
This is certaintly not the place to talk about that but you are welcome to learn me about your religion or discuss this matter at the islam forum as I have nothing against useful knowledge.

[ryupower]

Is it any less valid to believe that Jesus was an alien?
My New Age mom thinks that....Biblically it aint true

[ryupower]

This is certaintly not the place to talk about that but you are welcome to learn me about your religion or discuss this matter at the islam forum as I have nothing against useful knowledge. So you wanna learn about Christianity? Did someone tell you something that made you curious? You sort of surprised me here!

*Fulfilles stupid thought and asks Muslims why Jesus is just a Prophet*


Exchange of knowledge can't hurt! :)

[Kilgore Trout]

My New Age mom thinks that....Biblically it aint true

what a silly answer. :p

[cabdirazzaq]

So you wanna learn about Christianity? Did someone tell you something that made you curious? You sort of surprised me here!
PM about what you want to know! ;)

Exchange of knowledge can't hurt! :)
No, the thing is that I deal with some believing christians at school and I do not want to say something akwardly stupid due to ignorance about their faith nor do I want to say anything -without knowledge- which then turns out a little different than what I thought. I know from personal experience that when some people talk about my religion with me they argue through ignorance, this is always not wanted.

[cabdirazzaq]

what a silly answer. :p
In which way was that silly?

[ryupower]

No, the thing is that I deal with some believing christians at school and I do not want to say something akwardly stupid due to ignorance about their faith nor do I want to say anything -without knowledge- which then turns out a little different than what I thought. I know from personal experience that when some people talk about my religion with me they argue through ignorance, this is always not wanted.
That's why I'm asking not flaming the Jews here, I don't want any flame wars going on, and I don't want to be ignorant of their beliefs. ;)

[Kilgore Trout]

In which way was that silly?

it's silly on a couple of levels. On one level, it's a total non-answer to a rather serious philosophical question...

and on another level, it suggests some very strange ideas about the nature of truth.

I mean do you really believe that "truth" is found in a book?

Do we really have to pull out the "Inherit the Wind" arguments?

[ryupower]

it's silly on a couple of levels. On one level, it's a total non-answer to a rather serious philosophical question...

and on another level, it suggests some very strange ideas about the nature of truth.

I mean do you really believe that "truth" is found in a book?

Do we really have to pull out the "Inherit the Wind" arguments? yes.

[SilverClover14]

What if I one day said Lord of the Rings was not a book of fiction but of truth and that we all should live by it?

I would be called a cultist, right?

Well, essentially, that's what believing in the Bible is. It's just a book, and at that- a book that has been altered to suit those who preach it over the years. Christianity morphed with Constantine. It morphed again with the Great Schism. And it continues to morph to suit those that try to use it for their own gain. Such is the way of religion.

I was raised Jewish but in recent years took a more logical stance and became agnostic. I've been to churches before and basically get into debates with pastors who can't find proof in Jesus other than in a book which I don't believe to be true. The day you can prove to me without a single shred of evidence stemming from the New Testement that Jesus is the Messiah then maybe I'll believe. But I have more of an inclination to believe Hindu beliefs because they are older than Christian beliefs.

Think for yourselves, people. :) Don't claim an archaic book is all truth. I have an interesting philisophical view on it all but I don't have time to write it out now.

[ryupower]

What if I one day said Lord of the Rings was not a book of fiction but of truth and that we all should live by it?

I would be called a cultist, right?

Well, essentially, that's what believing in the Bible is. It's just a book, and at that- a book that has been altered to suit those who preach it over the years. Christianity morphed with Constantine. It morphed again with the Great Schism. And it continues to morph to suit those that try to use it for their own gain. Such is the way of religion.

I was raised Jewish but in recent years took a more logical stance and became agnostic. I've been to churches before and basically get into debates with pastors who can't find proof in Jesus other than in a book which I don't believe to be true. The day you can prove to me without a single shred of evidence stemming from the New Testement that Jesus is the Messiah then maybe I'll believe. But I have more of an inclination to believe Hindu beliefs because they are older than Christian beliefs.

Think for yourselves, people. :) Don't claim an archaic book is all truth. I have an interesting philisophical view on it all but I don't have time to write it out now.
The Lord of the rings has no proof. The Bible has Prophecies, most of what've come true.

[gnrm23]

So you say that the virgin thing was impossible? Than Isaiah Must've been a bad prophet. ( ISA 7:14 )



ummm, the hebrew word "almah" means "a young woman" of israel...
now, one could translate this as "maid" ...
and a technical tranlation of "maiden" could include "virgo intacto" ("virgin")
and the greek word (remember, the christian bible was in armaic & hebrew, then greek for a while, & then latin for a long time before being translated into "common tongue") "parthenos" meant a woman who had husband or male protector (& the biology term "parthenogenic" means conceived without a male gamete...)

but the original isaiah "prophetic writings" were referring to events much closer in time to the time of that old testament prophet, & did not actually say "virgin" mmmmkay?

~
and so forth, not so?

[seamonster66]

quote: was raised Jewish but in recent years took a more logical stance and became agnostic.

same here, cheers.

[SilverClover14]

The Lord of the rings has no proof. The Bible has Prophecies, most of what've come true.
What Prophecies have come true that are tangible and have direct proof?

Anyway.. that theory I was talking about:
If any of you have read Aesop's fables, they're stories that tell life lessons. Basically that's what I see the Bible as. I don't believe it was ever meant to be taken literally and was a metaphore to living a good, prosperous, "moral" life. Each religious text of any religion is simply their own form of Aesop's tables or mythology to explain how life works. Really the writers of the Bible and other religious books were the original spin doctors who could write to appeal to the masses. Leaders early on saw the power of these religious texts and raped them into what we now see as the world's major religions. Between numerous translations, what we now have isn't even what the Bible originated as.

Revelations explains our own views toward death. There will be no all encompassing apocalypse- it is your own personal apocalypse as you die.

My boyfriend has a more developed idea of this all seeing as how he was raised 7th day Adventist and recently became Deist. Since I find many of the Bible's moral values hypocrital and cruel, I wouldn't chose to follow it even as a metaphorical guide to life.

[ryupower]

What Prophecies have come true that are tangible and have direct proof?

Anyway.. that theory I was talking about:
If any of you have read Aesop's fables, they're stories that tell life lessons. Basically that's what I see the Bible as. I don't believe it was ever meant to be taken literally and was a metaphore to living a good, prosperous, "moral" life. Each religious text of any religion is simply their own form of Aesop's tables or mythology to explain how life works. Really the writers of the Bible and other religious books were the original spin doctors who could write to appeal to the masses. Leaders early on saw the power of these religious texts and raped them into what we now see as the world's major religions. Between numerous translations, what we now have isn't even what the Bible originated as.

Revelations explains our own views toward death. There will be no all encompassing apocalypse- it is your own personal apocalypse as you die.

My boyfriend has a more developed idea of this all seeing as how he was raised 7th day Adventist and recently became Deist. Since I find many of the Bible's moral values hypocrital and cruel, I wouldn't chose to follow it even as a metaphorical guide to life.
Almost all of them. The Torah, which was the Jewish 'Bible', had the whole old testament in it. The New Testament fulfilled most of the old prophecies.
The New Prophecies (and some still in Isiah) ,are obviously soon to come (most of these in Revelation), or have already been fulfilled, For instance, The Bible stated that Babylon WILL be rebuilt,- which it was.

There are so many of them, all are beginning to happen.

[the dauer]

" The Torah, which was the Jewish 'Bible', had the whole old testament in it."

This statement is incorrect. The Torah is one section of the Jewish Scriptures which is comprised of Torah, Prophets, and Writings, or in Hebrew Torah Neviim and Ketuvim from which comes the acronym Tanach, the name usually used from the Jewish scriptures. The "old testament" is often synonymous with the Tanach but there are differences.

"The New Testament fulfilled most of the old prophecies."

how is that tangible and direct proof? You haven't even shown what prophecies in the tanach link up with the greek testament, so that we can show you that these are not "nearly all" and that there isn't really any proof that any of it came true outside of the greek testament which, like all religious scriptures, is a biased text.

"There are so many of them, all are beginning to happen."

This claim has been made many times in the history of man.

[ryupower]

" The Torah, which was the Jewish 'Bible', had the whole old testament in it."

This statement is incorrect. The Torah is one section of the Jewish Scriptures which is comprised of Torah, Prophets, and Writings, or in Hebrew Torah Neviim and Ketuvim from which comes the acronym Tanach, the name usually used from the Jewish scriptures. The "old testament" is often synonymous with the Tanach but there are differences.

"The New Testament fulfilled most of the old prophecies."

how is that tangible and direct proof? You haven't even shown what prophecies in the tanach link up with the greek testament, so that we can show you that these are not "nearly all" and that there isn't really any proof that any of it came true outside of the greek testament which, like all religious scriptures, is a biased text.

"There are so many of them, all are beginning to happen."

This claim has been made many times in the history of man.
I wanted to explain to someone who obviously has no clue about the testaments what the Torah is. That's why I had it in '' .


About the prophecies, many just came true in the last decade. If you don't mind, I'll post a site that shows the fulfillments.

[the dauer]

"I wanted to explain to someone who obviously has no clue about the testaments what the Torah is. That's why I had it in '' .

As far as I can tell she knows quite a bit more than you, and you also explained it incorrectly.




The vague prophecies of your books have been attributed to other historical events before by people seeking a "way out", an "end time" that depended on God instead of the actions of humans to redeem themselves from the hell they'd created, an end time where God would smile upon the faithful and the heathen would get their comeuppance. The prophecies are vague enough to give hope in many generations.

You have not demonstrated that Jesus fulfilled any messianic prophecies. I have demonstrated what the messiah must fulfill (in whole and not part) in order to be the messiah. You have shown by your inability to present evidence that Jesus did not do these things. Your lack of evidence tells me you don't have any proof. That's what I suspected.

Dauer

[gillianwind]

I think the Bible is bull shit do you want anymore answers.

Do you think there are only two religions, because by the way that you give so much credit to the Jewish faith it's clear you don't even know all the other faiths or paths that you strait out stole your beliefs from and "christianised" them.

The Romans who crusified Jesus for his beliefs, and his claims, also came and killed thousands of other people years later for not believing in Christ.

I believe jesus exsisted, I think he was nothing more then a charismatic ego maniac who was a smooth talker, just like David Koresh(sp) or any other cult leader.

[ryupower]

"I wanted to explain to someone who obviously has no clue about the testaments what the Torah is. That's why I had it in '' .

As far as I can tell she knows quite a bit more than you, and you also explained it incorrectly.




The vague prophecies of your books have been attributed to other historical events before by people seeking a "way out", an "end time" that depended on God instead of the actions of humans to redeem themselves from the hell they'd created, an end time where God would smile upon the faithful and the heathen would get their comeuppance. The prophecies are vague enough to give hope in many generations.

You have not demonstrated that Jesus fulfilled any messianic prophecies. I have demonstrated what the messiah must fulfill (in whole and not part) in order to be the messiah. You have shown by your inability to present evidence that Jesus did not do these things. Your lack of evidence tells me you don't have any proof. That's what I suspected.

Dauer
Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I know any less.
But she makes claims that are untrue, therefore prooving that she hasn't read it.

[ryupower]

I think the Bible is bull shit do you want anymore answers.

Do you think there are only two religions, because by the way that you give so much credit to the Jewish faith it's clear you don't even know all the other faiths or paths that you strait out stole your beliefs from and "christianised" them.

The Romans who crusified Jesus for his beliefs, and his claims, also came and killed thousands of other people years later for not believing in Christ.

I believe jesus exsisted, I think he was nothing more then a charismatic ego maniac who was a smooth talker, just like David Koresh(sp) or any other cult leader.
I wanted answers...from Jews.

[the dauer]

Excuse me, Gillian, have you bothered to read any of the other threads on the Judaism board or are you just making assumptions? I speak to people on their terms. If I tell ryu that the Torah developed over many centuries by combining and reformulating the myths of many different nations with history, legal documents, and some other types of documents that's going to mean absolutely nothing to him. I have to speak to him of his concerns. I feel no need to attach a disclaimer to every post I make about the messiah so that it reads instead:

"You have not demonstrated that Jesus fulfilled any messianic prophecies. I have demonstrated what the messiah(although I really don't believe in prophecy) must fulfill (in whole and not part) in order to be the messiah."

And in all honesty, speaking to a traditionalist things like that just take away my credibility. Nor is it anything most traditionalists would care to hear. If you go to the thread on Akhenaten you'll see me arguing for modern biblical criticism and mentioning the possible connection between the centralization of divinity and the centralization of power.

Are you surprised that in a thread on the Jewish board about why Jews don't believe in Jesus the only two religions being mentioned are Judaism and Christianity (I may have also made a passing reference to Mithraism but that's irrelevant.)? I'm certainly not.

"The Romans who crusified Jesus for his beliefs, and his claims,"

How do you know? It's just as plausible Pilate was upset for his actions at the Temple at the time of a hectic pilgrimage festival and had him killed either because it annoyed him or to make a demonstration to the public. It's also plausible Jesus is not one man, but a number of men, probably with one central man, who were combined to form the mythical Jesus both in word, deed, and legend.

"I believe jesus exsisted, I think he was nothing more then a charismatic ego maniac who was a smooth talker, just like David Koresh(sp) or any other cult leader."

Then I guess you've got your beliefs too. It happened so long ago there's really no way for anybody to truly know.

Dauer

[the dauer]

ryu, I'm pretty sure she was offering an interpretation of her own based on the fact that she rejects taking it literally.

[Syntax]

I don't think Jesus was the messiah. I also don't believe he was the son of God. I mean, he did say he was the son of God, but aren't we all God's children, really? God himself said so many times. Abraham and Moses were called God's children, as was Solomon and many others in the bible. Jesus was a cool dude, though. The first hippy :p

[ryupower]

I don't think Jesus was the messiah. I also don't believe he was the son of God. I mean, he did say he was the son of God, but aren't we all God's children, really? God himself said so many times. Abraham and Moses were called God's children, as was Solomon and many others in the bible. Jesus was a cool dude, though. The first hippy :p
The whole thing with 'jesus was God'came to be because Mary was impregnated by the holy spirit...which was part of god.

[SilverClover14]

Ryu, were you infering that I don't know what the Torah is? Because if you were....

In fact I've read the entire Old Testament and some of the New. True, I read them when I was much younger (14 or so) but I've read them just the same. What I stated was just my own theory, just like your theory taking the Bible literally is just that- a theory.

[ryupower]

Ryu, were you infering that I don't know what the Torah is? Because if you were....

In fact I've read the entire Old Testament and some of the New. True, I read them when I was much younger (14 or so) but I've read them just the same. What I stated was just my own theory, just like your theory taking the Bible literally is just that- a theory.
I didn't think so....if you did, sorry. Because I had religion in school....and I didn't know the difference between the Old and new Testament until I was christian!
Sorry! :&

[SilverClover14]

I didn't know the difference until I learned that not everyone was cool enough to be Jewish. :p

But then I learned that I needed to use my knowledge as a weapon against born-again whackjobs that would tell me daily that I was going to hell.

[ryupower]

I didn't know the difference until I learned that not everyone was cool enough to be Jewish. :p

But then I learned that I needed to use my knowledge as a weapon against born-again whackjobs that would tell me daily that I was going to hell.
Your knowledge about what?

[Sephardic-male]

to know why jews don't believe in Jesus read my posts and the threads i started

[seamonster66]

quote: The whole thing with 'jesus was God'came to be because Mary was impregnated by the holy spirit...which was part of god.


HAHAHA yea, impregnated by god, that is so very likely
I'm going to try that one, even being a male, to see if it could work again.

[Disarm]

Yeah, to my understanding the messiah has to, among other things,
-be a man and nothing more. In christian terms, he is g-d/son of g-d. Therefore he can't possibly be the messiah, as he is more than a man.
-fulfil all prophesies within his lifetime. I'm sick of people harping on about him completing the rest of the prophesies when he returns to earth. He died according to christians- his life, as a man, ended long ago. Whether or not his spirit or g-dly part survived or was reborn is irrelevant, because his human part died. He did not fulfil all of the prophesies within his life as a human.
-Just for note, in order to be the messiah he had to essentially wage a holy war. Yes, do battle. This somewhat contradicts the bible again, jesus the pacifist waging war...

Assuming that the bible is true, jesus is not the messiah as defined in jewish terms. Most christians only accept evidence from their own book... it's all there... all you have to do is read and accept the messianic prophesies- basic christian knowledge will tell you jesus doesn't match up.

[ryupower]

Yeah, to my understanding the messiah has to, among other things,
-be a man and nothing more. In christian terms, he is g-d/son of g-d. Therefore he can't possibly be the messiah, as he is more than a man. Jesus was like a human in every single way, physicly. He had a flesh, just like everyone. He needed to be so in order to minister to them. But his spirit was part of G-d.
-fulfil all prophesies within his lifetime. I'm sick of people harping on about him completing the rest of the prophesies when he returns to earth. He died according to christians- his life, as a man, ended long ago. Whether or not his spirit or g-dly part survived or was reborn is irrelevant, because his human part died. He did not fulfil all of the prophesies within his life as a human. Where does it say the all in his lifetime part?
BTW: He'll come back in the body he resurrected in,-his glorified body.


-Just for note, in order to be the messiah he had to essentially wage a holy war. Yes, do battle. This somewhat contradicts the bible again, jesus the pacifist waging war... In a way, he did start a war. He said the following:

"Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword . For I have come to 'set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law'; and 'a man's enemies will be those of his own household."
Matthew 10:34-36 NKJV


And many people used to fight war for Christianity to prevail, therefore he brought war.
At least catholics.

[matthew]

I don't believe in jesus as a messanger or 'whatever' because even now people are disputing the interpretations and creating there own 'facts'.. I have no problem with the bible being a version a truth . Its just unbelieably flawed in so many ways i just can't buy the whole concept .

[the dauer]

ryupower, if you want to understand why Jews reject Jesus and what Jews say Jesus didn't do, try this.

http://www.kosherjudaism.com/moshiach.pdf

Also, how does second coming theology work in any way? That could be said about any person. Jesus fulfilled nothing that is confirmable. This is another link that discusses exactly the same thing, in a different way that you might find clearer:

http://www.messiahtruth.com/wanted.html

That also explains why Jews don't like missionaries bugging us about Jesus. Now if you read one or both of those links and still don't understand feel free to come back and ask questions or argue, but at least then we'll be on the same page.

Dauer

[forest_pixie84]

Hello! :)
Yes, I am Christian.
And no, This is not a direct flame at you guys. I'm greatful for Jews, for without them Christianity wouldn't exist.

So tell me: Why don't you believe in Jesus? Any particular reasons?

Just a curtousy(sp?) question...I used to follow christianity because my parents made me ever since I was little. Then I thought to myself, "that's not a good reason to do something". So I stopped and looked around at a bunch of religions. Now I decided to believe in him because a reality where people can (potentially) do the things he did is better than one where they can't.

[ryupower]

ryupower, if you want to understand why Jews reject Jesus and what Jews say Jesus didn't do, try this.

http://www.kosherjudaism.com/moshiach.pdf

Also, how does second coming theology work in any way? That could be said about any person. Jesus fulfilled nothing that is confirmable. This is another link that discusses exactly the same thing, in a different way that you might find clearer:

http://www.messiahtruth.com/wanted.html

That also explains why Jews don't like missionaries bugging us about Jesus. Now if you read one or both of those links and still don't understand feel free to come back and ask questions or argue, but at least then we'll be on the same page.

Dauer
I'll check those out later, thanks.

You were confused about the seconed coming? It's all explained in revelation (NT). So of you don't know about it! ;)

[FreakerSoup]

In order to understand why people don't believe in jesus, you have to look at the bible objectively. If someone tells you it's true and if you don't believe it you're going to hell, you might be less inclined to do that, but if you read it as a book and only a book, not trying to judge whether it's true or not, it's quite similar to the greek and roman and norse mythologies, along with the mythologies from everywhere else.

Remember that part when Lot and his family are fleeing their home and his wife looks back and turns into a pillar of salt? That's straight from Orpheus. There's plenty in the bible to diminish faith in it, but the only thing that will increase faith in it is more faith and blind acceptance.

[ryupower]

In order to understand why people don't believe in jesus, you have to look at the bible objectively. If someone tells you it's true and if you don't believe it you're going to hell, you might be less inclined to do that, but if you read it as a book and only a book, not trying to judge whether it's true or not, it's quite similar to the greek and roman and norse mythologies, along with the mythologies from everywhere else.

Remember that part when Lot and his family are fleeing their home and his wife looks back and turns into a pillar of salt? That's straight from Orpheus. There's plenty in the bible to diminish faith in it, but the only thing that will increase faith in it is more faith and blind acceptance.
Yes, it's alot like the Greek mythologies. Because Satan likes twisting things and Greeks were the only others besides Pagans in that time to minister to.

[the dauer]

You were confused about the seconed coming? It's all explained in revelation (NT). So of you don't know about it! ;)


Ryu,

I'm familiar with the concept of the second coming. I live in the United States. What I was stating is the reasons that I find it illogical. And further, if the only evidence for it is in revelations and not in the prophecies that preceded Jesus, then how does that prove its case very well? That would be like me coming along, claiming to be the messiah, getting some friends to go along with me -- but fulfilling nothing that would eliminate the need for belief such as world peace or bringing back the exiles -- and then having a friend write a book after I died to explain why there was no world peace and the exiles hadn't returned etc etc.

Now I have no problem with anyone believing this but as a Jew in a thread on the Jewish board about why Jews don't believe in Jesus I'm presenting something that appears as illogical and hardly a call for belief, actually a call for disbelief, to me.

Dauer

[FreakerSoup]

Yes, it's alot like the Greek mythologies. Because Satan likes twisting things and Greeks were the only others besides Pagans in that time to minister to.
You're missing my point. Satan is within the realm of the bible. Everything within the realm of the bible, taken objectively falls very near to all other mythologies the ages have come up with. When you say greek mythology was a result of satan, you're taking it subjectively, which is the wrong thing to do if you're really trying to understand other people's viewpoints.

[gnrm23]

(quote): Greeks were the only others besides Pagans in that time to minister to.



wha?

the greek mythos was the "classic" pagan religion...
but, by christian definition, everyone at that time was either jewish, christian, or pagan/heathen/gentile...

(the gentiles that paul wanted as converts to his gospel/christianity were ususally the ones who hung around the outer portion of jewish synagogues, called "god-feraring gentiles" - those who were ivery nterested in hearing the jewish message of one supreme transcendent deity (sometimes the classic gods of olympus seemed, well - petty & almost human!), but unwilling (or even unable?) to go all the way & become full converts to judaism...
and then along comes paul & says that if they accept this crucified & risen jesus as the long-awaited messiah (= "annointed of god" = "christos") that they would become adopted children of abraham & equal sharers in the kingdom to come... and welcome to sit at table with those who still kept kosher law... (which did not sit terribly well with the jewish christian community in jerusalem, which was headed by james the just, brother of jesus...))



shalom

[ryupower]

Ryu,

I'm familiar with the concept of the second coming. I live in the United States. What I was stating is the reasons that I find it illogical. And further, if the only evidence for it is in revelations and not in the prophecies that preceded Jesus, then how does that prove its case very well? That would be like me coming along, claiming to be the messiah, getting some friends to go along with me -- but fulfilling nothing that would eliminate the need for belief such as world peace or bringing back the exiles -- and then having a friend write a book after I died to explain why there was no world peace and the exiles hadn't returned etc etc.

Now I have no problem with anyone believing this but as a Jew in a thread on the Jewish board about why Jews don't believe in Jesus I'm presenting something that appears as illogical and hardly a call for belief, actually a call for disbelief, to me.

Dauer
If it's illogical to you, that's fine. But I fail to see how.