Possible draft?

[user__friendly]

I think I've heard this somewhere. Isn't there talk going on about a possible draft coming up in 2005?

[JamminOTR]

hehe, well lets hope not cus I got my draft card in the mail about a month ago. Funny...a little piece of paper can determine whether you live a normal life, go to another country and kill people, go to another country period or end up in jail for a long time, all cus of the piece of paper and the "bright" ideas behind it. Stupid draft!
:P<--smiley vomiting

[user__friendly]

Gah, I know! For your sake, and everyone elses, lets hope a draft isn't necessary!

[moon_flower]

I've heard talk of a possible draft. For the love of humanity, I hope it's just a hoax. But, I can see it happening. All the war casualties that we have. If our president only had a brain....

[WayfaringStranger]

its more like probable draft. they are passing laws right now actually. and i believe i read that women are going to be included. Canada has already signed a treaty to not harbor draftdodgers. expect life to get worse before it gets better.

[Nalencer]

Here is an article I recieved in an email newsletter about a week ago.

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The Draft will Start in June 2005

There is pending legislation in the House and Senate (twin bills: S 89 and HR 163) which will time the program's initiation so the draft can begin at early as Spring 2005 -- just after the 2004 presidential election. The administration is quietly trying to get these bills passed now, while the public's attention is on the elections, so our action on this is needed immediately.

$28 million has been added to the 2004 Selective Service System (SSS) budget to prepare for a military draft that could start as early as June 15, 2005. Selective Service must report to Bush on March 31, 2005 that the system, which has lain dormant for decades, is ready for activation. Please see website: www.sss.gov/perfplan_fy2004.html to view the sss annual performance plan - fiscal year 2004.
The Pentagon has quietly begun a public campaign to fill all 10,350 draft board positions and 11,070 appeals board slots nationwide. Though this is an unpopular election year topic, military experts and influential members of congress are suggesting that if Rumsfeld's prediction of a "long, hard slog" in Iraq and Afghanistan [and a permanent state of war on "terrorism"] proves accurate, the U.S. may have no choice but to draft.

Congress brought twin bills, S. 89 and HR 163 forward this year, http://www.hslda.org/legislation/na...s89/default.asp entitled the Universal National Service Act of 2003, "to provide for the common defense by requiring that all young persons [age 18--26] in the United States, including women, perform a period of military service or a period of civilian service in furtherance of the national defense and homeland security, and for other purposes." These active bills currently sit in the committee on armed services.

Dodging the draft will be more difficult than those from the Vietnam era.

College and Canada will not be options. In December 2001, Canada and the U.S. signed a "smart border declaration," which could be used to keep would-be draft dodgers in. Signed by Canada's minister of foreign affairs, John Manley, and U.S. Homeland Security director, Tom Ridge, the declaration involves a 30-point plan which implements, among other things, a "pre-clearance agreement" of people entering and departing each country. Reforms aimed at making the draft more equitable along gender and class lines also eliminates higher education as a shelter. Underclassmen would only be able to postpone service until the end of their current semester. Seniors would have until the end of the academic year.

Even those voters who currently support US actions abroad may still object to this move, knowing their own children or grandchildren will not have a say about whether to fight. Not that it should make a difference, but this plan, among other things, eliminates higher education as a shelter and includes women in the draft.

The public has a right to air their opinions about such an important decision.

Please send this on to all the friends, parents, aunts and uncles, grandparents, and cousins that you know. Let your children know too -- it's their future, and they can be a powerful voice for change!

Please also contact your representatives to ask them why they aren't telling their constituents about these bills -- and contact newspapers and other media outlets to ask them why they're not covering this important story.

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I live in Canada, but if I lived in the US I would be proesting the second they started a draft. In fact, I'll be getting a prtotest together here in Canada against the no harboring treaty, and the draft in general.

[Strawberry_Fields_Fo]

Hey, what about concientious objector status? Would that still apply?


-Kate

[BuffaloSoldier]

I'm sorry, but I will not participate in a war that I do not believe in. If we were getting invaded or I had to actually protect OUR country or OUR freedom, I would be on the front lines. But not for this, not for oil, not for corporations. I couldn't take somebody's life for unknown reasons. I'll dodge if it comes to that.

Love my country, hate my government.

[Acorn]

whats this about women being in the draft?! can they really do that?

i think mexico signed the treaty too. :(

[/|\]

how could we dodge it without gettin jail time?? I WILL NOT fight in some stupid oil war...

[lunar forest]

You could always claim pacifism. My grandfather did (well, he was a pacifist) you just have to prove it, I believe. They check up on you to see if you've ever been in fights, and that kind of thing. I'm not certain of how one proves it, but it's something to think about. I'd imagaine most people here are anyway, and certainly those wanting to avoid the draft would be - right?

[MichaelByrd1967]

Anyway, there is a deal that the U.S. is making with Canada and Mexico, that will not allow draft dodgers across their borders.

Oh man, i'm scared shitless about the fact that there might be a draft. After all of the deaths and injuries in Iraq, Bush is going to replace them with new recruits who didn't want to be here in the first place, but had to or they'd go to jail.

I'm going to "conscientious objector" the hell out of this bitch!!!! I suggest that all of us on the forums do the same.

[DeadheadHippieForPea]

the thought of a draft scares me sooo much..but i would never fight..i would go to jail before i would hurt anyone and fight in a war.. a relative of ours has a cabin in canada..i think..so we would stay there...peace and love

[lover/young_peace]

i am scared for i do not want to die. what is this crap and who the hell do they think they are to tell innocent people to kill/be killed for their reasons.

thats not very democratic at all. if i wanted to get behind their bullshit "cause", i would choose to but i dont. ahhh! the draft is soooo terrible. we are trapped. ages 1-18 you have limited rights because you're not considered adult. then after that if you get drafted, well, too bad time to die???? AHHHH!!!!!

man im sorry i know im overreacting and whatever but its scary.

ok when are we going to march to washington. Come on, its summer, most schools are out.... lets go. ILL COME!

WE ARE NOT GOING TO TAKE IT!!!!

[MichaelByrd1967]

"The Pain Of War Cannot Excede, The Woe of Aftermath." - Led Zeppelin, "The Battle Of Evermore" :eek:

That is probably the lyric that explains war the best. Because after a war, there is always grievence and woe. People have died, people have suffered permanent injuries. :(

And that bastard Bush wants to do that to millions of American young adults just for some oil. :confused:

To quote comedian Jim Carrey, "War Is Hell! The Last Thing We Want Is A Fight!". Even though used in a comedic sense, it's true. The last thing that anybody would want is a fight. If anybody thinks that any war is justifiable by a teeny little insignificant reason, then they're insane.

In conclusion, We need to get a revolution up in this bitch! :cool:

[lover/young_peace]

yes we do. yes we do...

[Real American]

First off, to the people that think this war is about oil. It isn't. As a family member of a family owned oil company, I can asure you, there is plenty of oil for the US. As a matter of fact, for the last 8 years or so the price we get per gallon of oil hasn't changed that much. The gas prices are soaring because of greedy companies. But that's everywhere now days. You can even find that method in the cloths you wear. Cloths makers paid cheap, cloths sold for way more. Point is, America has plenty of reserve oil.

Secondly, and this is to you draft dodgers and cry babies. I understand that war is not right. I understand war leads to the death of many. I understand it's scary. However, I also understand that sometimes it is necessary. What would our life be like had we not fought for our freedom in the American revolution? What would our life be like had we not had a Civil War? You people cry and complain because we are at war...but I'm sure you would cry and complain if we were attacked again but did nothing. Perhaps we should all go hug a tree and invite terrorists over for dinner? Seriously folks, what would you do if you were out with your family and someone attacked your children...would you just sit there, let it happen, and let the person run away? Or would you defend your family? Let's say your local government decides to make a law that says if you aren't jewish you aren't allowed in the city. Yes, I know we have laws that prevent this. But lets say judges decide to ignore that law like some are ignoring same sex marrage laws. Would you just pack up and leave? Or would you fight for your freedom? I'm going to assume you would fight for your freedom. Right now our soldiers are fighting for the freedom of Iraqi(sp) people. They are also fighting for our freedom. There are people out there that don't like us for our freedom. They don't like the fact that you have the right to sit here and complain, and they are willing to kill you and I for it. So while you sit here and cry and complain against a war that is trying to help an oppresed people, remeber there are men and women dying for your right to cry and complain. I'm tired of seeing my nation split apart by words like left wing/right wing. We are one nation, under one God, created to give us a freedom that most people in the rest of the world may never know. There is no more African American, Chinese American, Mexican American, Caucasian, from now on it is American. Open your eyes and see this. Quit fighting amongst yourselves. Support our troops, Support our nation, Support freedom!

[lunar forest]

Well, I know I should really just ignor this "Real American" because s/he seems like a troll to me, but for any of those who might be doubting that this war is about oil, and that america (and everyone else for that matter) is running out of oil, and fast, here is a link to check out some of these truths. I'm assuming everyone is somewhat comfortable trusting that National Geographic isn't feeding us ull shit on this one.

http://magma.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0406/feature5/index.html

[lunar forest]

so much for ignoring....


All I have to say to you, RA, is that there is a huge difference between the desire to fight for one's freedom, and being forced fight this unjust, so-called "war on terror."

I still say claiming pacifism seems like the best bet. Could it be so hard to believe a hippie to be a pacifist, I don't think so!

Fighting for the Iraqi peoples supposed freedom when they never asked us to is none of our business.
Are they grateful that sadom's regime is no longer in control (for now)? I'm sure they are.
Are we glad that Sadom doesn't have WMD and that we got him? Sure.
Will most of america be thankful for the oil? No doubt!
But none of these things justify this war.

[lover/young_peace]

i support our troops ... thats why i dont want them to die.

yes if you feel like its nessacary for a war i cant stop you from signing up. but thats a different topic. we're talking about forcing people into the cause. i dont think they should be able to do that. maybe they think the cause is justifyed, fine let them fight, I dont think it is, so i will fight for only what i believe in. I am not willing to kill somebody over something i do not fully believe in.

and I think that there's a big possibility that our current administration is made of religous terrorists....


by the way, this guy didnt sound like a troll to me. We disagree, but RA seems civilized to me. Plus he had a few points I could agree with.... kind of.

No i dont want war. I dont want to die. I dont want anybody else to die. American or not I dont want them to die.

Ahhh.... life can be so fun. It seems like a waste to fight a war.

ah yes but I realize Im naive, however, Im young so its allowed.:)

[HippieLngstckng]

Heh heh heh! Well, somebody has a strong opinion (we won't say any names, now will we, "Real American"?). And you know what? You're entitled.

I believe we have enough oil for our country, I've heard this already from people other than you that are connected with the oil industry. But you know what? It's a non-renewable resource, meaning that there is a *LIMITED SUPPLY*. And our gov't is greedy. We would just love to have some of the major oil producing countries under our belt. Can anybody say, "Iraq"? Better yet, can we say "finishing Daddy Bush's war"? I don't want my friends to be killed over a political war, I'm sorry "Real American", but our lives are worth more than this, we are being used as pawns by our own country. By the way, it does nothing for your credibility to call us draftdodgers and crybabies. People might take you more seriously if you knew how to express your opinions and concerns without attacking others. It's something that comes with maturity, and who knows, maybe someday soon (hopefully very soon!) you will learn to have tact when dealing with others. But until then, you will have to understand that many people don't support this war, and it isn't like we are fighting for our own freedom. Our own freedom has already been won, by many brave and patriotic individuals who believed in the American dream. And you know what? If it were a war like that, where I was protecting my own, I'd be first to step up to the plate and lay down my life to ensure my children were able to enjoy the freedoms I do. But it isn't about that. Please, "Real American" open your heart and mind for one brief moment. We aren't talking about protecting our own borders, here, we're talking about sticking our nose in another country's business. Last time that happened, I believe it was the Vietnam War, and we didn't come out of that smelling like roses, now did we? This is the truth... We need to reinforce our borders, and take better precautions INSIDE of our country, instead of persuing madness OUTSIDE of it. I'm not talking about hugging terrorists, I'm talking about not becoming terrorists ourselves. I'm not a very good Christian, sir, but I will say this... my Lord is the Prince of Peace, and Bush should not go proclaiming war in His name. You will be in my prayers. May you learn the love and tolerance that will complete your life, and soften your angry and judgemental heart. God bless you, sir. Sincerely, Julie :D

[backtothelab]

Your right we have tons of oil here, which is why we are in iraq. If we blow all their oil, the world's oil is in the US. Wow now we have the whole planet wrapped around our finger. It's as simple as that. They've been planning this shit for decades, it's nothing new.

[GOB1029]

real american,

i think i can safely assume that you believe in God. i do too. you told "us" to go hug a tree or invite a terrorist into our home for dinner. i think i can also assume that you consider terrorism a sin, i know i do. therefore, a terrorist would be a sinner. if i remember correctly, Jesus often dined with sinners. also, in response to your examples of being opressed and "you would fight for your freedom?" i would protest for my freedom. if you will remember Ghandi, please. india was being opressed by great britian at the time, and he did nothing violently. he had a method of protesting peacefully, and india got what they wanted. you don't have to kill to get what you want. also, if you will remember, in the garden before Jesus was captured, peter drew his sword and cut the soldier's ear off. Jesus told him to put down his sword, for "those who live by the sword die by the sword". i hope that maybe you will open YOUR eyes, and see that violence is not the way.

[Real American]

I'll just go down the list in order of replies sense my post on this thread.

Lunar Forest: First off,thanks for calling me a troll. Second you said:there is a huge difference between the desire to fight for one's freedom, and being forced fight this unjust, so-called "war on terror."
You do remeber September 11th right? I know I do, I woke up on my off day. Went on an IRC channel, and was bombarded with friends asking me what was happening in Houston with recent events in NYC. I had no clue what was going on. I turned on the TV and was astonished. After 15 mins of hearing reporters talk about what was going on, I watched as the 2nd plane flew into the building. I then got on my knees and prayed. Not to long after my boss called me wanting me to come into work because the store had a masive amount of customers buying tv's and radios. I told him no, that my family was more important than the almighty dollar. Later, my wife and I were talking about these events as news unfolded on the tv. I predicted that this was our pearl harbor. You remeber pearl harbor right? That was when there was a major event happening on the other side of the world. That was back when the United States decided not to get involved in other countries affairs. That's when another country decided to take action against us. That was the last time we sat idoly by to watch other countries leaders destroy their inhabitents. That was the last time we decided to let a tyrant do whatever they want.

Need I remind you Lunar Forest that during the 70's and 80's these same groups were attacking us in our airports,hijacking our planes and making plans to kill us. To this day they are making plans. Right now these groups claim to have loads of supportes in our country, waiting for the signal to attack. Let me give you another analogy. Let's say a convicted killer is on the loose. We had him, but he escaped. Should we just forget about it? Perhaps not worry about it sense it doesn't affect us personaly? Maybe because he is 500 miles away it doesn't realy matter. Perhaps he kills someone again, but it's of no concern to you or I because it wasn't us he killed, or any of our family members? I say no, I say it does matter, because that killer is killing people, and chances are, he will kill again. My father tought me to protect the weaker people. All my life I have been that person you run to when you were in trouble. Be it you needed advice on something, or just a sholder to cry on, I was the person you went to. At 6'7" and 365lbs in high school, I found myself taking up for the "nerds". I don't condone violence, but in my earlier years in life, I learned turning the other cheek didn't always work. Sometimes you have to fight back. That's where we are at now. I'm not doubting that some in our government have some other motive. But what I do see, and hear from the soldiers over there is that we are making a difference. Just recently in Iraq, the first ever radio talk show was created. 80,000 Iraqi's call in a day to a radio station that has 2 phone lines and discuss whatever they want to talk about. Most are just happy that they have this freedom. The host of the show( I can't remeber his name at the moment, and even if I could, wouldn't be able to spell it) says that most of the callers call in and complain about lack of electricity. Good thing there are people over there now working on that isue. Other complin about American's being over there. Other praise Americans for being over there. Point is, not to long ago, had they complained about anything, they would be subject to death. That would be comparable to you and I talking here, and our government killing us because we voiced our opinion. Reguardles if you see it or not, we are over there fighting for freedom. I have yet talked to a soldier that told me "I hate seeing the smiles on the faces of the people we are helping". I don't think I will ever hear that.

lover/young_peace:yes if you feel like its nessacary for a war i cant stop you from signing up. but thats a different topic. we're talking about forcing people into the cause. i dont think they should be able to do that. maybe they think the cause is justifyed, fine let them fight, I dont think it is, so i will fight for only what i believe in. I am not willing to kill somebody over something i do not fully believe in.
So you don't think helping people is justified? Please by all means, re post and explain yourself more. One more thing, if the draft does come, and you are of age, you will be called apon. I'll remind you that even priests and rabis fought in the Vietnam Contreversy.

HippieLngstckng:By the way, it does nothing for your credibility to call us draftdodgers and crybabies. People might take you more seriously if you knew how to express your opinions and concerns without attacking others. It's something that comes with maturity, and who knows, maybe someday soon (hopefully very soon!) you will learn to have tact when dealing with others. Kinda like you calling me immature correct? I'm just calling it the way I see it. In previous posts on this thread, people have talked about not being able to run to Canada or Mexico. Kinda sound like draft dodging to me. As for the cry babies. Well, again, I called it like I saw it. It wasn't realy a negative attack on your character, just an observence of what I saw.

backtothelab:Your right we have tons of oil here, which is why we are in iraq. If we blow all their oil, the world's oil is in the US. Wow now we have the whole planet wrapped around our finger. It's as simple as that. They've been planning this shit for decades, it's nothing new. I'm sorry, but I'm just going to tell you what I tell my son. If you don't know what you are talkign about, please don't open your mouth. If you are interested in what is being talked about, but don't understand, then ask a question. If the answer given to you does not do it for you, do your own research. I also tell him not to be a smart ass, as it will get him nowhere in life.

GOB1029:you told "us" to go hug a tree or invite a terrorist into our home for dinner. What I realy said was Perhaps we should all go hug a tree and invite terrorists over for dinner? That wan't an attack on anyone, I'm just trying to get my point across. As for:"those who live by the sword die by the sword" that is true. Do you remeber when Moses talked with God in the mountain. Moses didn't want the job, he didn't think himself worthy, and quite frankly, I think he was scared. However, God had already planed on using Moses. He told Moses that He would "harden the heart of Pharo". He also told moses of the Miracles He would perform through Moses. Point is, God knew there would be death, and He knew that Pharo would die because he believed himself to be greater than He was.

We are human, and we are not perfect. However, I myself can't sit here and do nothing. I have gotten out of my car with my wife yelling "your gonna get shot" as a homles man herassed an mother with her children. I have stoped a grown man bigger than I from beating his child. I have fussed at parents in their car at a red light with babies in the car not in car seats. When I see something that just isn't right, I voice my opinion. I tried to sign up for our armed forces. Took the test, made a 99 on it. Could have done whatever I wanted in the forces. They told me I was over weight. I told them they could work it off me in boot camp. They didn't go for it. My point is, the only way I can do anything now is to talk to people. I surf the internet daily looking for places I can talk with people. Hoping I can show them how helping other people is benificial.

To all of you: Yes, I truely understand your desire for peace. I myself would prefer to live in a world that didn't center itself on money. I wish we could all work together for each other, beinifiting off of each other. Those that don't want to work can leave and go live on an island as far as I am concerned. But this dream will never happen. It's hard to accept it, but the world for the most part is selfish. As I stated before, I'm sure there are evil bastards in our government that have other ideas for being in Iraq. I'm sure they have dreams for other countries as well. However, I do know for a fact that we are over there making peoples lives better. Would it be that we could save one child out of 100, it is better off than loosing all of them.

[lover/young_peace]

somebody else go... ive got nothing here to say. i dont want death. ah, if the world were this simple......

[GOB1029]

We are human, and we are not perfect. However, I myself can't sit here and do nothing. I have gotten out of my car with my wife yelling "your gonna get shot" as a homles man herassed an mother with her children. I have stoped a grown man bigger than I from beating his child. I have fussed at parents in their car at a red light with babies in the car not in car seats.
i am happy you helped these people, unless you used violence. Jesus also said, "you have heard it said "and eye for an eye" but i tell you, if a man strikes you, turn the other cheek." That's a pretty clear peace statement. i agree with you that we should not just sit around and let the stuff happen. i am TOTALLY AGAINST sitting back, doing nothing but complaining about how our government "sucks". i think we should work on changing ourselves, then people who are worse off than us, and maybe, eventually obtain worldwide happiness. however, if a man was going to kill my children, i would atempt to stop him. he would most likely kill me, because i am not using and weapons or violence. however, i know that my children would be alright, because they would go to heaven, if they weren't "good with God", i would pray at that moment that they would accept Jesus. i would also know that i'm good with God, and that i would go to heaven. i think that all we can do for the souls in the world that commit these acts of violence, or degrade others, or any sin, is pray. pray that they would come to know Jesus as their savior, and that they would change their ways. if someone kills my wife, then i kill him, then there are just two murderers, no good has come from it, except possibly, in a sick way my (for lack of better word) satisfaction of killing my wife's murderer.

also, in response to God knowing there would be death, death is inevitable, however, death is just another stage of life, after death, depending on whether or not you believe that Jesus Christ is your savior, you will either enter eternal paradise and peace in Heaven, or eternal torture in Hell. if you will recall the battle of jericho, the soldiers did no fighting, they simply marched (much like what hippies did, and many people still do) around the city, until the walls fell down. i believe that if humanity protests enough, eventually, we will have peace. Dwight D. Eisenhower once said, "I think that people want peace so much that one of these days government had better get out of their way and let them have it." hopefully, this will occur sometime. i don't know if i have influenced you at all, but i will pray that you will truly let Jesus take over your heart and life, and that you will see violence is not the answer.

[GOB1029]

also, not directed to real american, more related to the draft, if the draft does come, and i get called, i will go, however, if i am on the battlefield, or in a plane, or i am given the "responsibility" of killing, i will not do it, either i will get killed, or i will get kicked out of the military, if that happens. i support them because they're trying to obtain peace, but i do not support their methods, i pray every morning and night that they will realize that they are going about it all wrong.

[gEo_tehaD_returns]

I think it's unlikely that this bill will pass. But if it does, looks like I'm gonna be doing some jail time. Better than killing and being killed.

You know, if enough people refused to be drafted, they'd quickly run out of prison space. What would they do then? Would they just seriously overcrowd the prisons? It'd become quite obvious that the people are being forced to fight a war that they do not believe in. The government exists for the people doesn't it? So why is it sending the people off to die for something which the people don't believe in? The government would recieve lots of criticism, and would have to choose between pushing it's own disregard for it's established purpose into the light for all to see, or cancelling the draft.

[MichaelByrd1967]

The only reason why Bush is doing this bullshit "War On Terror", is because he wants to get re-elected. He must have thought of the idea after seeing 'Canadian Bacon', which is a Michael Moore film, about a president who wants to get re-elected starts a Cold War with Canada, just so his approval ratings go up.

Bush is so much of a child, that after Cheney played him the tape, Bush got right on it and made up some bullshit story about a guy named Osama Bin Laden and his so called Al-Quaida [sp]. 9/11 was Bushes own damn fault for not taking any action to prevent it. Like hell, "it was inevitable" he says.

'Anybody but Bush '04'. Hell why don't we just not have a president for 4 years and see how it goes.

[Real American]

The only reason why Bush is doing this bullshit "War On Terror", is because he wants to get re-elected. He must have thought of the idea after seeing 'Canadian Bacon', which is a Michael Moore film, about a president who wants to get re-elected starts a Cold War with Canada, just so his approval ratings go up.

Bush is so much of a child, that after Cheney played him the tape, Bush got right on it and made up some bullshit story about a guy named Osama Bin Laden and his so called Al-Quaida [sp]. 9/11 was Bushes own damn fault for not taking any action to prevent it. Like hell, "it was inevitable" he says.

'Anybody but Bush '04'. Hell why don't we just not have a president for 4 years and see how it goes. I was going to reply and argue with you, then I saw your age. I understand now. I will say this though, educate yourself on the stuff you talk about. Without information, you make yourself look like a babling windbag.

[lunar forest]

RA, I am sorry if referring to you as a "troll" was insulting to you. I assumed that because your name ("Real American") sounds holier than thou, and has to do with this particular topic and not that of the entire forum, and that you only had 2 posts (and the other one also being controversial.) It seemed to me, that you came here with the sole purpose of either stirring up trouble, or convincing members of this community to your point of view.
Either of these things comply with this definition of trolls, and the latter of which you have already admitted to. http://communitiesonline.homestead.com/dealingwithtrolls.html

You have also highjacked this thread. Had you started your own thread on this subject, as opposed to highjacking one about the possible draft and the attempt to pass laws about it.
Name calling such as "crybaby" is not going to win anyone to your side. As some have said already, your approach seems immature. Another reason I assumed you to be a troll (you didn't make very convincing points, you merely said things that appeared to be attempts to upset members of this online community.) Some of us may wish to be "draft dodgers" so honestly I cannot dispute this one. ;) And again, if you wish to fight this war, that is your right, but many, dare I say even most of us feel that it is unjust and that it is our right to make that choice.

Also, and this is directed at all viewing this thread, if you honestly believe that this war isn't about oil (as well as finishing daddy's war - good point, HippieLngstckng,) please read the link that I previously posted. It is a national geographic article on the subject, very interesting. Before you make up your mind on the topic it would be wise to read this first. :)

Peace man, really.

[lunar forest]

you make yourself look like a babling windbag.
Again, if you are not a troll, why do you insist on name calling? Please, this is a peaceful community, well for the most part. :rolleyes:

[HippieLngstckng]

"Real American"

My dear sir, you have me all wrong. You see, "Draftdodger" and "Crybaby" are insulting. Telling someone that they are immature for name calling, something I specifically remember doing when I was a child, is just stating a fact.

"I called it like I saw it. It wasn't really an attack on your character, just an observance of what I saw." Yes, sir, well, same here.

Sir, I will still be in prayer for you, may the Lord soften your hardened heart. But until you have an open mind and heart, I see there really is no point in arguing with you, because there is not even a chance for you to even look at this situation from anyone's point of view but your own. Good day to you, sir.

[Real American]

RA, I am sorry if referring to you as a "troll" was insulting to you. I assumed that because your name ("Real American") sounds holier than thou, and has to do with this particular topic and not that of the entire forum, and that you only had 2 posts (and the other one also being controversial.) It seemed to me, that you came here with the sole purpose of either stirring up trouble, or convincing members of this community to your point of view. Nope, it wasn't insulting. I was simply saying thanks. I'll remind you that assumption is the mother of all f-ups. My purpose for joining this community was simply to debate my feelings on a few of your topics. I found your forums, read some interesting things and decided I should register and voice my opinion. I don't realy see how I have hijacked this thread. I am simply doing what others are doing, posting my feelings on the subject. Maybe you are used to jerks and so called "trolls" coming here and disrupting your life, but I personaly don't think that makes it right for you to automaticly put me in that group. I'm not trying to "win" anyone over to my "side". I'm simply talkikng, like you are, and voicing my opinion. Look at how you attack me. I have read many posts on this forums, and I have seen many of your members with more than 2 posts say much worse things than I have said. Another reason I assumed you to be a troll (you didn't make very convincing points, you merely said things that appeared to be attempts to upset members of this online community.) So does that mean if you don't see any convining points in anyones feelings on this forum then they are a possable "troll"? One more "convincing point" for you lunar forest, I did not call that young person anything. I said Without information, you make yourself look like a babling windbag. That goes for myself, or any other person that makes an attempt at saying something without the proper knowlege to back it up.

HippieLngstckng:
I think out of all the people here expressing their feelings, you seem to have your head on straight. Sure we disagree on some things but who doesn't? I thankyou for your prayers. I feel one can never have enough people praying for them. I would like to point out a fact though. In your same simplistic reasoning of saying someone was immature, I feel that can be combined with the reasoning of calling someone a "draftdodger". If you in fact dodge the draft, then you are a draft dodger. Many people on this thread implied they would do so. So under your logic, that word aplies. With the use of the word crybabies, well, I see it now as lunar forest using the word troll. You said to me But until you have an open mind and heart, I see there really is no point in arguing with you, because there is not even a chance for you to even look at this situation from anyone's point of view but your own. I would like you to go back and read my posts. Please tell me where I say I understand what you want isn't opening my mind? Once again, that's why I am here, to discuse and learn. To get others Ideas and form my own. That my friend is what communication is all about. I personaly love the idea of world peace. I just see the true fact that it will never happen. At least, it will not happen while I am alive. From reading The Bible, I know that the only time there will be world peace is after Jesus has called his bride up into heaven. For 7 years there will be "world peace" with the Anti-Christ leading. At the end of that 7 years, Jesus will return and with a single word, kill every last living creature that stands against him. Let me make this clear, so you don't have to question me on it again. I do not condone war, I do not like killing. I do not like the idea of people dieing. But come on, without War, we would not be free. Please look up "American Revolution".

As for the draft. I don't think it will pass. I do think it sad though that this amount of Americans don't feel it's necceary to fight for freedom, be it their own or someone elses.

[HippieLngstckng]

HippieLngstckng:
I think out of all the people here expressing their feelings, you seem to have your head on straight. Sure we disagree on some things but who doesn't? I thankyou for your prayers. I feel one can never have enough people praying for them. I would like to point out a fact though. In your same simplistic reasoning of saying someone was immature, I feel that can be combined with the reasoning of calling someone a "draftdodger". If you in fact dodge the draft, then you are a draft dodger. Many people on this thread implied they would do so. So under your logic, that word aplies. With the use of the word crybabies, well, I see it now as lunar forest using the word troll. You said to me I would like you to go back and read my posts. Please tell me where I say I understand what you want isn't opening my mind? Once again, that's why I am here, to discuse and learn. To get others Ideas and form my own. That my friend is what communication is all about. I personaly love the idea of world peace. I just see the true fact that it will never happen. At least, it will not happen while I am alive. From reading The Bible, I know that the only time there will be world peace is after Jesus has called his bride up into heaven. For 7 years there will be "world peace" with the Anti-Christ leading. At the end of that 7 years, Jesus will return and with a single word, kill every last living creature that stands against him. Let me make this clear, so you don't have to question me on it again. I do not condone war, I do not like killing. I do not like the idea of people dieing. But come on, without War, we would not be free. Please look up "American Revolution".

As for the draft. I don't think it will pass. I do think it sad though that this amount of Americans don't feel it's necceary to fight for freedom, be it their own or someone elses.

No sir, I'm sorry, I have to disagree. We fought for our own freedoms, and assisting another country by sending food and medical supplies is one thing, but laying down our own childrens lives is entirely another. We cannot stop the ball from dropping when our Divine Father says it is time to go. And you are correct, sir, the end times are coming very, very soon. Which is why it is impossible to try to hinder this from happening. All we can do is ready ourselves. At least that's the way I see it.

I'm not insulted, but it seems that a couple of people are rather offended because of the condecending tone that your first letter had taken. The lives you speak of sending to fight are not yours to send. I think everyone should have the right to say "no" to something they don't support. Sir, there are a lot of people who feel the way that you feel, and all of those people may go fight, if they wish, and I pray for their safe return (may I mention that I have friends and family fighting in Iraq, so everyone's prayers are appreciated). But those that don't want to, shouldn't. God did give us free will and the ability to exercise it. Not everyone chooses wisely, but that comes with being a part of this flawed human race :) So, if I am a sinner for feeling the way that I feel, then God, be gracious and forgive me. But my Lord gave me the right to choose, and my upbringing and understanding of this life as I know it makes my heart cry out for peace.

Sir, the only qualm I have with you is the insults you've thrown the others way. Even in the face of adversity, when you're presenting yourself as a Christian, you should present yourself accordingly, as you are supposed to be a reflection of our Lord. Yes, I agree, their responses to you could have been tempered with some love and compassion, as we reap what we sow (shame on you guys, you should know better). But they don't claim to be followers of my beloved rabbi, either.

[schoolkid]

I think that no one should be forced to fight if they do not approve of it, especially if it is against their religion/culture to do so. (No worries though, I believe draft excludes people with specific religions/cultures against war or with certain disabilities.) However, if I were drafted, I would be more than happy to serve this wonderful country that has given me so much. I look at the Iraqi people and see how much they suffered under Saddam Hussein, and I look at how much we are spoiled over here, and so I would feel guilty to not go over there and help them.

In World War II, our grandfathers were drafted to fight a war in foreign countries. No one complained - they answered the call of duty. Some even committed suicide when they were told they could not join the military because of certain disabilities. They fought hard, and more than 300,000 Americans gave their lives to liberate countries they had never before visited. Today, we are again called upon to help those in need, and I don't see how the liberation of Iraq is any different from the liberation of Europe sixty years ago.

[Real American]

We fought for our own freedoms So you are saying that was ok, but you don't support fighting for someone elses freedom? Also, what part do you disagree with? In your own words you destroy your argument. But those that don't want to, shouldn't. In our dreams of world peace we would all work together for the common good. But what would we do with those people that don't want to work? I am trying to understand you, but I am not able to. You are using the Bible as an excuse to be selfish. From what I get from you, if I were in danger and needed help, you would talk to the person putting my life in danger. If that person attacked you, you would not fight back, you would sit there and talk. Then, that person would kill the both of us. Then what good have we accomplished. I realy understand your goal of preserving life. Believe me I do. However we are fighting Satan here. I want you to open your eyes and see this. We are all God's children, are you telling me you think God doesn't want you to fight for his children? You have a freeodm that blood was spilled for and yet you are not willing to share that freedom. Explain to me how that is right? You use quotes from The Bible in your arguments. God said obey the laws of your land. If the draft passes, then it is a law, will you disobey God because you don't agree with the War on Terror? One more thing before I go.....you tell me why you deserve freedom, but these children don't! http://www.operationiraqichildren.org/

[lover/young_peace]

wait... who is this Satan we are fighting?

im sorry i may have to stop talking, im not understanding this anymore.

plus i dont think we should bring religion into this war. I'm sure you have good intentions, and you are free to believe whatever, but many people (both American and Iraqi) think they have to kill eachother because it is the will of god. If I did believe in God, Im sure he wouldn't wish death. Im not sure if im making my point, but both parties need to leave religion completely out of it. Otherwise, things get even more out of hand.

Ahh, i doubt i make sense. I just would not want war. I am a simple thinker. I dont want murdering.

[HippieLngstckng]

Lover/Young Peace, sweetie, that's all that some people hear is religion. But a lot of those people really don't understand the roots of their religion. This gentleman claims to be a Christian, a follower of Christ who is a known pacifist. This is why he was dubbed the "Prince of Peace". Peace is absolute, and there is no war for peace... BTW, you guys, remember yourselves and do not let him provoke you into being condesending, I don't care if he did it first. We are representing something bigger than ourselves here, and we want to be a proper reflection of our character. :rolleyes:

So you are saying that was ok, but you don't support fighting for someone elses freedom? Also, what part do you disagree with? In your own words you destroy your argument. In our dreams of world peace we would all work together for the common good. But what would we do with those people that don't want to work? I am trying to understand you, but I am not able to. You are using the Bible as an excuse to be selfish. From what I get from you, if I were in danger and needed help, you would talk to the person putting my life in danger. If that person attacked you, you would not fight back, you would sit there and talk. Then, that person would kill the both of us. Then what good have we accomplished. I realy understand your goal of preserving life. Believe me I do. However we are fighting Satan here. I want you to open your eyes and see this. We are all God's children, are you telling me you think God doesn't want you to fight for his children? You have a freeodm that blood was spilled for and yet you are not willing to share that freedom. Explain to me how that is right? You use quotes from The Bible in your arguments. God said obey the laws of your land. If the draft passes, then it is a law, will you disobey God because you don't agree with the War on Terror? One more thing before I go.....you tell me why you deserve freedom, but these children don't! http://www.operationiraqichildren.org/

I disagree with almost everything that you say, sir. I keep repeating myself, but here we go... Again! Sir, the Lord helps those that help themselves. We fought for OUR OWN FREEDOM. And all I am suggesting is that if the Iraqi's wanted freedom from Saddam, they outnumber him greatly, and they should have had their own "American Revolution" of sorts, and not depended on someone else to speak and fight for them. Why fight for your rights if someone else is going to do it for you?

Sir, I do not destroy my own argument, you are not listening to my case. There are always peaceful resolutions to a problem. WE HAD NOT EXHAUSTED ALL OF OUR OPTIONS. But our country has not taken that route, SOOO... those who support our government's decision to fight a war that is not ours are more than welcome to go... but those of us who wanted peaceful resolve shouldn't have to go against our beliefs because someone else made the decision that it's a good idea to go over there. By the way, you know that the people you are speaking of do not serve our God, correct? While it is true that we are all God's children, these people have chosen to serve someone else. May I cite Commandment Number One? Allah's people are also the same people who curse Israel..."I will bless those who bless you (Israel), and curse those who curse you." And if I, personally, were attacked, the first thing I would do is NOT retaliate, I would get myself to a safe place, and be sure that I was safe and secure, not in a position to be attacked again... But as someone who is NOT a fighter, by any means of the word, that is just what I would do (I have shown false bravado in the past, and gotten my a** kicked, excuse my language :rolleyes: ). This just adds to my belief that we should strenghten our borders and place more of a concern on internal safety. I do want freedom for the Iraqi people, but in your own words, "what would we do with those people that don't want to work?" Fighting for freedom is hard work. I support fighting for freedom, but I think that it is the Iraqi's role to fight, and we may help through other means of support. As for the laws of my nation, the laws of my nation are supposed to be decided by it's people, and I hope that "we" outnumber "you" (speaking of our political ideology). It isn't that I deserve freedom and they don't (nice try, sir... *grin* :p ), it is that ours has already been won, paid for in American blood. I will not support paying American blood for Iraqi freedom. We really are fighting Satan, sir, but as long as we are using his tool of war we can never win. I never said that the path that I chose is easy, sir. I said I believe that it is correct :D .

Someone else said it before but I'll say it again, because it's so perfect:
"The pain of war cannot excede the world of aftermath" - Led Zepplin

[GOB1029]

From what I get from you, if I were in danger and needed help, you would talk to the person putting my life in danger. If that person attacked you, you would not fight back, you would sit there and talk. Then, that person would kill the both of us. Then what good have we accomplished.
if the two of you believed in Jesus as your savior, you would enter the kingdom of heaven, and, that's a blow to satan, because he gets two less people for himself. now, i'm not saying we should commit suicide to go to heaven, i'm just saying we shouldn't decide when other people should die.

[lunar forest]

I'm with you, L/YP! It's great that you two feel so stringly about your religions, and I understand that it is part of every part of your lives, even war. For the rest of us, however, it has nothing to do with it!

I am going to agree with HippieLngstckng on the points made about RA controdicting himself with his own religous beliefs. I am also going to agree that this guy is not worth arguing with.

Peace to you - lf

[Real American]

Ok, I wont use Satan in my posts anymore to allow for more understanding to those that do not share my beliefs in God. Does evil work for you? I think evil is a good sub word.

I have yet to contradict myself. I am not perfect. God said thou shalt not kill. He also said for me to obey my government. He also said that if a man commints murder, the person asigned to kill that murder by his government would not be persecuted.


Principles of the Just War






A just war can only be waged as a last resort, after reasonable attempts to bring justice have been exhausted.
A just war can only be waged by a legitimate authority. People, vigilantes, terrorists do not wage just wars; only a legitimate government is permitted to wage a war that can be considered justified.
A just war can only be fought to redress wrongs that have been committed. A first strike attack on a nation that has committed no atrocities cannot be considered justice; that's aggression.
A just war can only be fought with "right" intentions. War is not justified to gain control of another nation, it's assets or it's people. If the right intention for going to war is not present, justice is not present.
A just war can only be fought if there is a reasonable chance of success. Deaths and injury incurred in a hopeless cause are not morally justifiable.
A just war can only be fought if the ultimate goal is to re-establish peace. More specifically, war is not justified if the situation in a country cannot be reasonably expected to be better after the war than before.
A just war must never allow the force used to be disproportional to the need. Nations must be prohibited from using force not necessary to attain the limited objective of addressing the wrongs that have been committed.
A just war must employ weapons and tactics that discriminate between combatants and non-combatants. Innocent civilians are never permissible targets of war, and war can only be just if every effort is made to avoid civilian casualties.
When you look at these criteria, the United States seems to have a pretty strong case to stop the threat that these people poses to humanity.The US Government is a legitimate authority and does not bear the sword in vain (Romans 13:4). Besides, Psalm 82:4 commands us to "Deliver the poor and needy; free them from the hand of the wicked"Hussein has shown himself to be an evil dictator. He has consistently lied about his chemical and biological weapons program. He has been less than forthcoming when pressed by the UN weapons inspectors, both after the Persian Gulf War and in advance of this one. He has brutally murdered untold Iraqis who have dared to resist him. These facts are indisputable. Without question he fits the description that the Church Father Augustine gave of those who are rightly condemned and against whom war is justifiably waged: "The passion for inflicting harm, the cruel thirst for vengeance, an unpacific (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=unpacific) and relentless spirit, the fever of revolt, the lust of power, and such like things, all these are rightly condemned in war." (Contra Faust. xxii, 74).

One more thing I'll say. You are right, it is your choice. If you feel like hiding behind The Bible and using bits and pieces to justify your cowardice you have the right to do so. I on the other hand will use The Bible as my sword. If my nation calls on me, I will fight for Iraq, and I will fight for you as well.

[lunar forest]

A just war can only be fought with "right" intentions. War is not justified to gain control of another nation, it's assets or it's people. If the right intention for going to war is not present, justice is not present Ok, I can agree with that. But finishing daddy's oil fight doesn't fit this description!

[Republican]

I hope not, the volunteer army is one of the things that make our country great.. If they do, I would not mind because I am my mothers only son meaning I can't be drafted.. Instead I would go to West Point and become an officer because I feal it is important to serve my country. Although if the draft is not started I may want to be come a Lawyer...

The draft seems like a communist program to me but if my country needs me I will come. The reason the draft is important is because alot of people would not enlist. IMHO it dosn't matter who's president war will happen and you should serve your country if it needs you.. The draft coming back is a rumor.. Bush is not crazey no matter what you think.. He would not comit political suicide like that..

[schoolkid]

Ok, I can agree with that. But finishing daddy's oil fight doesn't fit this description!
The war was not fought for oil, but for justice and peace. I suppose you could say that it's "finishing Daddy's job" but thats true - Saddam Hussein should have been taken care of long ago.

Also, I do not see the problem with the draft. The draft was used during World War II - no one complained then. In fact, the draft wasn't really even needed - the men would have volunteered anyway. Why was it okay to draft Americans to fight for Europe but not okay to draft Americans to fight for Iraq?

[Real American]

But finishing daddy's oil fight doesn't fit this description! Proove your theory. Teach me. Show me that this War is over oil. When you are done, I'll show you every discusting picture I can find of what Sadam did to his people. I'll also show you pictures of Sept 11th and show you pictures of people jumping out of the buildings. I'll show you people crying over lost loved ones. I'll show you people crying from fear. I'll show you children that don't have parents in Iraq because their parents disagred with a tyrant. To be honest with you, I don't think either of the 2 websites I run have enough storage for me to show you everything. One more thing, to those of you that don't think this involves your freedom. http://www.homelandsecurityus.net Get a tisue, and find someone to hug, you're gonna need it.

[Real American]

Saddam Hussein should have been taken care of long ago Indeed, however, we left it up to the UN. The UN tried to do it peacefully for a good 12 years. Then, out of nowhere, we were attacked in our homes. We talked with the UN. The UN wanted to do more talking. We were tired of talking, so we decided to get involved in a more direct way!

[Republican]

Indeed, however, we left it up to the UN. The UN tried to do it peacefully for a good 12 years. Then, out of nowhere, we were attacked in our homes. We talked with the UN. The UN wanted to do more talking. We were tired of talking, so we decided to get involved in a more direct way!Amen!
thank god another pro-war person!


also if you dont want the draft.. get sum of your liberal friends to serve our country.. you may not agree with the war but if you can eather enlist, be commisioned, or get drafted you mingt want to understand why..

Its because of the Libratarians who wont enlist and the liberals who have cut spending for the millitary.. so look here if the millitary is undermaned and underfunded what do you expect them to do... the draft may be established but why fear it? why fear serving your country? how bout some patriorism? you need to realize that you can only protest because of your rights but some liberals call themselves "Anti-american" or some call them selves "anarchists"... well let me ask you this do these anarchists realize they can only be anarchists because they have rights because of a government? i dont think they do...

oh and by the way were finding Iraqs WMD's guess where.. germany and france.. mabe you should watch Fox news because they tell the truth... there the only station w/ a show like hanidy and colmes a show with a democrat and a republican hoast.. even colmes admits the finding of Iraqi weapons In europe.. and look at gas prices I dont see the oil you think were getting...

[gEo_tehaD_returns]

Real American, all of your bible based evidence isn't worth shit to anyone who doesn't believe in your religion. The US prides itself on being a free country, but much of that was thrown down the shitter. Use of certain drugs, which interfere with the rights of no person, has been made illegal (of course the profitable ones stay legal). Gay mairraige has been banned beacuse of religion and hateful homophobes who can't accept those who are different. But to force service in the military would destroy our freedom much more severely. This is supposed to be a democracy, and I assure you that there would be no draft were it up to the people.

[lunar forest]

RA, have I somehow convaied to you that I think the things that SH has done to be ok? If so I am truely sorry! I think you would be hard pressed to find someone (other than a terrorist) isn't against him! These are attrosities of the worst kind, to be sure!

Or did you just assume that because I am not pro-war that I am, like you sugest, I just want to "hug a tree and invite terrorists over for dinner?"

I have never doubted that this man is as close to evil as hitler.

[Republican]

oh no i dont sujest u agree w/ SH but some people who are raticaly left would say so.. and i know that alot of people feal the same as you do..


Real American, all of your bible based evidence isn't worth shit to anyone who doesn't believe in your religion. The US prides itself on being a free country, but much of that was thrown down the shitter. Use of certain drugs, which interfere with the rights of no person, has been made illegal (of course the profitable ones stay legal). Gay mairraige has been banned beacuse of religion and hateful homophobes who can't accept those who are different. But to force service in the military would destroy our freedom much more severely. This is supposed to be a democracy, and I assure you that there would be no draft were it up to the people

the drugs dont interfear w/ the other people's rights but.. they kill people.. dont be stuped.. gay merrage is not natural Im sorry I am not pro-banning it and I know gay people who are nice, good people.. but it is not natural... and the draft is for the safty of the people its sad that you can hate your country just when a republican is president.. now let me ask you are u anti-war? were u anti-war when clinton bombed Iraq to cover his merital problems?

[HippieLngstckng]

now, i'm not saying we should commit suicide to go to heaven, i'm just saying we shouldn't decide when other people should die.That's all that I'm saying, too. No one has the right to send anyone else to their death.

Even with all of RA's bible based evidence, he forgets that Christ came to make people understand that it isn't not the letter of the law that matters, it is the principle. And He left His principle in the commandment that is greater than ANY Moses' brought off Sinai, to love thy neighbor as thyself. Aaand, since I feel as though I am monopolizing this discussion... well, I'll let you guys take care of the rest... *grin* :rolleyes:

I'm tired of repeating myself. There is nothing I can say that I haven't said before, so I am leaving this thread. By the way, what I meant about being a reflection of something bigger than ourselves is that we are reflecting our political ideology, and we should present it respectfully, because getting attitudes with people like this is absolutely pointless, from what I have seen. It only adds fuel to their fire.

For goodness sakes, I've been DREAMING about debating with this guy. I'm outta here.... GET HIM, YOU GUYS!!! :p

Real American, sir, God bless you, you will be in my prayers... but maybe the others can explain why we feel the way we feel better than I can. Be nice, now, everyone. **GRIN**

[Republican]

yea I agree.


By the way, what I meant about being a reflection of something bigger than ourselves is that we are reflecting our political ideology, and we should present it respectfully, because getting attitudes with people like this is absolutely pointless, from what I have seen. It only adds fuel to their fire.

yes this is true. It is hard to debate because people get emotional. I am head dellegate for my model United Nations team and we represent Viet Nam who was anti-Iraq war.. lol I hated it but it is always good to learn a new perspective.. also In my speech class we got to our debate unit and we debated stem cell seserch.. I had to be anti-stemcell and this was hadr because my father works in that field and Its hard to debate a thing that you were taught to accept.. not to mention they can be taken from living afterbirth so it isn't an abortion thing (good thing cuz im pro-life :rolleyes:).. but my point is always see the other side of the arguement and dont let it get personal or else you will become Al Gore and your old friend will forsake you (clinton) or in our case we might become some extream biblical nut.. and god knows those both are usualy hypocrites no matter your wing (left or right) there are nuts and the easyest way to become one is to take everyting personaly..

[HippieLngstckng]

Sorry you think I'm a biblical nut, Republican. Didn't mean to make you think that I'm some bible-beating, psycho-Christian, 'cause I'm not... I swear...
**GRIN**
Okay, I'm really leaving now. Play nice, ya'll...

(note to self: stop checking this thread... you are addicted. ADDICTED I SAY!)

[Republican]

oh no thats not what im implying..
im talkin bout this


For goodness sakes, I've been DREAMING about debating with this guy. I'm outta here.... GET HIM, YOU GUYS!!! http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/tongue.gif

gettin emotionaly envolved in debate.. i wuz just givin an example.. lol and what happens if you get too involved u become a nut like gore or sum of those radical christicans (im a christian and all but sum people are crazey and become hipocrats)

hypocracy is a common thing in debate and god knows I do it sum time.. and what i wuz trying to say is dont dream bout it lol cuz if u do ur goin overbord.. and hypocracy will ensue after u go crazey.. im too far off the deep end save yourself.. :p

I luv being crazey.. :)

[Real American]

I have that affect on people, they meet or talk to me, then dream about me.

[MichaelByrd1967]

Why are you even on this forum Real American? Are you even a 'hippie' (to the lowest meaning of the term)? And I do know my information, never judge a person on what he/she knows on their age. It's called ageism, and it's a form of prejudice, which is what us hippies are all against.

I don't know why you insist on teasing us. Are you here just for that?

OK. I know that there were wars in the past that may or may not be justifiable (ie. Revolutionary War [independence], WWII [stopping Hitler]). But the reason why we protest war, is because they are dozens of more choices and non-violent actions, that Bush could've taken to prevent war and still get Hussein out of power.

But the bigger reason why we protest war, in general, because we don't want our children growing up in a world, where everything that you believe in is shot down by the power of the government. Like Graham Nash once said, "Teach Your Children Well, their parents' hell will slowly go by." Well, we want to teach our children that fighting will not solve anything, but it will cause even more pain and aggression. Like Zeppelin once said, "The Pain Of War Cannot Excede, The Woe Of Aftermath."

Do you like fighting in general? And I say that, because your argumentative and hurtful rebuttals to other forum members replies, really show that you do take pride, in hurt. Why don't you think about what you want, instead of what Bush wants. As so many people have said before, "For The Love Of GOD!!!! Will Somebody, Think Of The Children!!!!"http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/icons/newicons/peace.gif

[alice_d_millionaire]

whooopeee!! we're all gonna die!

i really dont see why amerika should get involved in any conflicts in the middle east. those tensions have been there for thousands of years. realistically, if there wasn't an amerikan presence throughout the middle east, then all this "terrorism" wouldn't be happening. and, anyway, the last time i checked, iraq didn't fly a fucking plane into any amerikan buildings. sure, saddam was a demented dictator, but that's not any of our business. at least until it affects the amerikan agenda...

dude, mr. 'real american', why are you even in these forums? just curious... you're definitely different from everyone else herein.

peace and prosperity to you and yours. hope i dont get drafted after i graduate next year.

[lover/young_peace]

im so excited. i cant wait to die. i cant wait to see innocent people in Iraq die. i cant wait to bomb Iraqi children. i cant wait to send my friends , my lovers, future poets artists and revolutionarys to die.

cant you tell im so excited for a draft. ^ :mad:

NOOOO man the point is whether a war is justifyed or not is gonna be an opionion so people should not be forced to fight. ever.

i dont believe in being patriotic either. just because i am born on one side of an imaginary line does not make me different as a person. it does not mean im better or worse than anyone else in the world. i would like to get rid of organized religion and countries both alltogether but i know thats idealistic waay and never gonna happen so i dont know how i feel man i just dont want people to die and i think that there can be a better way. through peace.

there is no way to peace.... peace is the way .

[HippieLngstckng]

I have that affect on people, they meet or talk to me, then dream about me.
LOL! Sir, you are too much! **GRIN** :p

[Real American]

Why are you even on this forum Real American? Are you even a 'hippie' (to the lowest meaning of the term)? And I do know my information, never judge a person on what he/she knows on their age. It's called ageism, and it's a form of prejudice, which is what us hippies are all against.
This was stated on another post. Please use this information you say you have. Age does play a huge part. For a long while your beliefs are that of your parents. Hence why a child in a catholic family becomes catholic. A child in a democratic family becomes a democrat.

I don't know why you insist on teasing us. Are you here just for that? I have not teased anyone. I have had a discusion with inteligent people on this forum. Wich I might add is the sole purpose of forums.

OK. I know that there were wars in the past that may or may not be justifiable (ie. Revolutionary War [independence], WWII [stopping Hitler]). But the reason why we protest war, is because they are dozens of more choices and non-violent actions, that Bush could've taken to prevent war and still get Hussein out of power. This is sad to me. You just said that you know your information and that I shouldn't judge a person by his or her age. Did you know that the Gulf War took place in 1990? Did you know that Iraq attacked Kuwait for reaons of "they are upsetting our income"(that's a reference to the fact that Kuwait was selling mass amounts of oil at the time, and Saddam Hussein didn't like that). Article 51 of the UN Charter entitles a country to support an ally. Kuwait was an ally of ours. On November 29, 1990 UN Security Council authorized use of "all means necessary" to eject Iraq from Kuwait.http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/gulf/cron/

Now you are trying to say that our current president did nothing to try to stop Hussein. Are you crazy? After the Gulf War it was handed over to the UN to finnish it. Their sanctions did not work. For 12 years the peacful rout was tried. 12 years, you were 2 when it started, and during your growing up it was being dealt with peacfully. Peacful didn't work. From now on, if you want to bring a point to the table, please do it with information to back it up.

But the bigger reason why we protest war, in general, because we don't want our children growing up in a world, where everything that you believe in is shot down by the power of the government. Like Graham Nash once said, "Teach Your Children Well, their parents' hell will slowly go by." Well, we want to teach our children that fighting will not solve anything, but it will cause even more pain and aggression. Like Zeppelin once said, "The Pain Of War Cannot Excede, The Woe Of Aftermath." Guess what, the way things are looking http://www.homelandsecurityus.net/ you may not have a future. These people hate us for everything we stand for. More over they hate us because we are not Muslim. It doesn't matter if you want peace or not. When it comes down to it, they will kill you reguardless.

Do you like fighting in general? And I say that, because your argumentative and hurtful rebuttals to other forum members replies, really show that you do take pride, in hurt. Why don't you think about what you want, instead of what Bush wants. I'm sorry if the truth comes off as hurtfull to you. The main idea of this particular thread is the draft. In my opinion, if you aren't willing to serve your country, willing to fight for freedom(be it yours or someone elses) then you need to find a new home.

alice_d_millionaire: What's with the K's in your spelling of America? So you do that just to draw attention to yourself? Or is there a meaning behind it?

[MichaelByrd1967]

I feel I can do a lot at home. I'm running my own music teaching business right now, and I wouldn't want to leave it for getting killed. I'm bringing a little bit of happiness and joy into the lives of my students. I would rather do that, have to kill an Arabic person, just because Bush told me to.

[lunar forest]

never judge a person on what he/she knows on their age. It's called ageism, and it's a form of prejudice, which is what us hippies are all against.
Wow - I love it. You are an inellegant, productive young person, sticking up for your right to be treated equally! It's beautiful!

Peaople don't see it as being prejudice, they're just kids, they don't have real feelings, and certainly don't have opinions of their own! Ha!

It's just so good a refreshing to see!

Peace to you, MB!

[MichaelByrd1967]

You said earlier that you were raised by hippie musicians?

My parents were of the Punk Crowd. My dad was guitarist and bassist in a punk band, and my mom was a groupie.;)

Funny how things turn out.

[Real American]

I feel I can do a lot at home. I'm running my own music teaching business right now, and I wouldn't want to leave it for getting killed. I'm bringing a little bit of happiness and joy into the lives of my students. I would rather do that, have to kill an Arabic person, just because Bush told me to. Well, you are safe, you are only 16 so no draft for you. I would like to ask you this though, If our nation comes under attack this summer in multiple places at the same time and you are asked to help defend your town or area, will you?

P.S. Also, that wasn't much of a reply after I posted? I was expecting more of a come back....

[MichaelByrd1967]

I would help my town, but I feel that I don't have to be involved in something that I don't believe in. But if it affected me directly, like at home, I would.

And the reason why I worry, is that the date that Bush set for the enactment of his 'possible draft' is in June 18, 2005 (i'm not exactly sure of the exact date), which is right around my 18th birthday, so I should worry.:mad:

P.S. And the reason why I didn't respond with a big comeback after your rebuttal, is because I didn't read much of it. I didn't care.:p

[GOB1029]

P.S. Also, that wasn't much of a reply after I posted? I was expecting more of a come back....
dude, what is with you? you sound like you WANT to argue with people, like you want people to get mad at you! i don't understand... also, just out of curiosity, how old are you? if you don't mind me asking

[lunar forest]

RA, he's 16, almost 17. Couldn't you do the math from what he said in his post, or did you only hear the parts that you wanted to hear? BTW, some poster (MichaelByrd1967 being among them) have their age posted along with the date the signed up, user name, lacation, and number of posts. ;)

[MichaelByrd1967]

Still I'm trying figure out why Real American wanted a bigger rebuttal from me. Was he trying to prove some sort of sick-twisted point?

[Real American]

but I feel that I don't have to be involved in something that I don't believe in. But if it affected me directly, like at home, I would. Very selfish, doesn't sound like a person that loves everyone.

I didn't care. Then why post anything at all?

dude, what is with you? you sound like you WANT to argue with people, like you want people to get mad at you! i don't understand... also, just out of curiosity, how old are you? if you don't mind me asking I am not the one who started this thread. I read it and felt moved to reply. That my friend is the point of forums. To talk. I don't WANT to argue with anyone. However, when someone makes comments like he did, showing that he was totaly uneducated in what he was talking about, I had to correct him. Also, I don't mind you asking my age, I'm 27.

Couldn't you do the math from what he said in his post, or did you only hear the parts that you wanted to hear? Yes Miss. Smart Ass. I can do the math. No I did not look up his personal information. I saw that he was 16 now in the year 2004. Meaning he would be 17 in the year 2005. From that logic he wouldn't have to worry about it. But seriously, it's ok, I realy don't want a person that cares only for himself to have the responsability of covering my back.

Still I'm trying figure out why Real American wanted a bigger rebuttal from me. Was he trying to prove some sort of sick-twisted point? No, I wanted an intelectual conversation between two people with differing opinions. It's like playing chess, you never play someone with the same skill as you or worse, always play harder because you will then get better!

[lunar forest]

Ahem, that's Mrs. Smart Ass to you son! ;)

[MichaelByrd1967]

I'm not selfish, how dare you assume anything, but I'm saying that I would rather help the world in a non-violent manner than a violent one. Why would I want to cover your ass anyway? You don't deserve it.

And I know that you're only trying to have an intellegent conversation, but it sound's like it's fueled by anger, no offense.

And I do know my information. The reply about the Michael Moore film "Canadian Bacon" was complete sarcasm, but I still don't support Bush. Do you support Bush?

And I turn 17, next week. So I would be 18 when the 'possible draft' is enacted in June, 2005. I support our soldiers, because I think that they shouldn't have to be killed.

Oh, It's not right to call anybody Smart Ass.

[lunar forest]

Awe, thanks for sticking up for me, MichaelByrd1967!

[GOB1029]

Why would I want to cover your ass anyway? You don't deserve it.
now, i'm not sticking up for real american, but, hopefully you would save anyone's life simply because it's a life.

[MichaelByrd1967]

Of course I would. Any life is worth saving. But I'm only saying that out of anger for Real American's assholeness (if that's even a word).

[Republican]

whooopeee!! we're all gonna die!

i really dont see why amerika should get involved in any conflicts in the middle east. those tensions have been there for thousands of years. realistically, if there wasn't an amerikan presence throughout the middle east, then all this "terrorism" wouldn't be happening. and, anyway, the last time i checked, iraq didn't fly a fucking plane into any amerikan buildings. sure, saddam was a demented dictator, but that's not any of our business. at least until it affects the amerikan agenda...

dude, mr. 'real american', why are you even in these forums? just curious... you're definitely different from everyone else herein.

peace and prosperity to you and yours. hope i dont get drafted after i graduate next year.Its because they started it.. We dont instagate they do.. The terrorism has been there for years..
only because they see us as Unmoral.. they see us as greedy and absesed with sex and money... There is truth in that and we are attached to our posesions.. but the truth is the leaders (who commonly dont belive) corrupt their good religion to make it just to attack us.. they also target us because they think if we are brought to our knees that nothing can stop them and they can rule the world.. the people and the religion are twisted for unjust means..

Im not gonna start the chemical weapons debate.. but saddam was our problem cuz Bush Sr. and Clinton screwed up and couldn't do it themselves.. Its there fult were in this.. not Jr's Ill even admit Sr. screwed up.. so did Clinton.. The weapons were just a secondary reason and not because of lies but old Intell.. the weapons were in france.. and germany... but I dont acuse them I think they were used because they want peace.. I dont like france or germany but I dont think they tried to hide em.. but aneyway..

millionaire are you your mothers only son? If so you cant be drafted..


Why are you even on this forum Real American? Are you even a 'hippie' (to the lowest meaning of the term)? And I do know my information, never judge a person on what he/she knows on their age. It's called ageism, and it's a form of prejudice, which is what us hippies are all against.

rember he has the same rights as you do the first amendment and all alow him to say and feal how he wants with in reason.. and he is well w/ in reason.. as a Leftist im shure you like your first amendemnts rights while bush is president.. well rember he has them too.. and he can defend himself..

but R.A. dont call people smart ass' let others sink dont sink to that level.. you are smart enough to find actual ways to debate him and not call names..

[Real American]

But if it affected me directly I didn't assume anything about you, you said it yourself right there.

Why would I want to cover your ass anyway? You don't deserve it. Well, I will fight for you then.

but it sound's like it's fueled by anger No, it's fueld by disgust at the cowerdice I see before me. From what I can tell, you and many others here take your freedom for granted. Way before our time men gave up their lives so we could have freedom. They didn't know who we were. They couldn't see the future. They just knew that we as humans have freedom. We are born with it. They faught against those that would take it away. Well reguardles if you want to be a coward or not, men and women are fighting for that freedom today. Not just for the Iraqi's freedom, but for our own. If you can't see that, then you are just uneducated and blind.

Oh, It's not right to call anybody Smart Ass.Real American's assholeness Hypocrite.

The terrorism has been there for years I don't think they understand just how long this problem has been there. I think they believe it just started with former Pres. Bush.

but R.A. dont call people smart ass' let others sink dont sink to that level.. you are smart enough to find actual ways to debate him and not call names.. I didn't sink anywhere. Call it sarcastic, call it smart ass, either way, thats what lunar forest was doing. Besides....Ahem, that's Mrs. Smart Ass to you son! http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif Lunar Forest admited it.

[lunar forest]

RA, I didn't admit anything. I was correcting your titling me. You said "miss smart ass" I corrected you on the title, I am a married women, therefore I am to be reffered to as "Mrs." as opposed to "Miss." Do you follow me? Obviousely I am not calling myself a "smart ass," as there is nothing smart about my ass. Cute, maybe, but there is certainly nothing intelegant about my behind, but thank you for the complement.

I also reffered to you as "son" and you are certainly not my son! No sir! My son would question his "athorities" far more than you! It was sarcasim, perhaps you are formilure with it?

Oh yeah, you still haven't actually answered the question as to why you came to a hippie online comunity when you make no claims to be a hippie, or have any similure beliefes.

[MichaelByrd1967]

Of course you didn't even look at my apology, so you only look at the negatives. You are trying to prove a point. And I'm not a hypocrite, the reason why I said that isn't right to call someone Smartass, is because, it's a lie. Lunar Forest isn't a smart ass, but you are definitely and asshole, and that's the truth.

And yes, I know that there were men in the past, that fought for theirs and our freedoms and many died for us, I having 2 great uncles that perished in WWII. But I feel that I do not have to fight for freedom. In this crazy world, freedom doesn't exist, because of tyrannicals like Bush, Sadaam, etc. The fact is that I don't believe in war. I don't like to handle a gun or any kind of weapon. And if that makes me a terrible person in you're eyes, then Real American you should rethink your life.

The reason why I think that this an unjust war, is that war could've been avoided if Sadaam wasn't so full of himself, and gave up. Instead, because of his maniacal egocentricism, over 800 American and British lives have been lost now. The war is clearly Sadaam's fault, but even if so, there could've been many more ways to avoid it. But now from the looks of it, Bush is using that to his advantage, to try and get re-elected, so he could institute his 'draft'. And that is completely opinion. You can support Bush all that you want, but I'd rather vote for Kerry, than support somebody who can't even spell his own name (and that is just an opinionated insult. NO FACT BEHIND IT!!!)

And Real American, you gotta figure out when I'm using sarcasm, facts, and opinions, because you are completely misinterpreting the things that I post.

[alice_d_millionaire]

[QUOTE=Republican]Its because they started it.. We dont instagate they do.. The terrorism has been there for years..
only because they see us as Unmoral.. they see us as greedy and absesed with sex and money... There is truth in that and we are attached to our posesions.. but the truth is the leaders (who commonly dont belive) corrupt their good religion to make it just to attack us.. they also target us because they think if we are brought to our knees that nothing can stop them and they can rule the world.. the people and the religion are twisted for unjust means..

Im not gonna start the chemical weapons debate.. but saddam was our problem cuz Bush Sr. and Clinton screwed up and couldn't do it themselves.. Its there fult were in this.. not Jr's Ill even admit Sr. screwed up.. so did Clinton.. The weapons were just a secondary reason and not because of lies but old Intell.. the weapons were in france.. and germany... but I dont acuse them I think they were used because they want peace.. I dont like france or germany but I dont think they tried to hide em.. but aneyway..

millionaire are you your mothers only son? If so you cant be drafted..
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
well, as luck would have it, no. i am not an only son. yeah, sure you can say that they instigated it, which is partially true. i agree totally that something had to be done about the infamous attack on the capitalist commercial centers. but where does it stop? a 'war on terrorism' sounds kinda like an infinite endeavour. and although i don't toally disagree with the concept, it seems that there is a lot of money to be made and marbles to be won. dammit, im off topic

this chasm was caused thousands of years ago, before 'christ' himself supposedly walked the earth. if i recall correctly, weren't the hebrew people constanly trying to kill of someone, and vice versa? thats the problem with organised religion (at least in my opinion): there has to be an enemy, an infidel. this infidel, the battle against it rather, is a wonderful guise for alterior political motives. the terrorists want us out of the middle east so they can run things their way. they are, in my opinion, in need of enlightenment. its not the stone age anymore, anyway. the middle east has something the rest of the world needs to survive (in its current state), oil. let me say im not alluding that the war is about oil. dammit! the whole thing is stupid. i quit. hope you all have a nice day, followed by many more nice days. hope you dont get shipped off to iraq any time soon.

[Republican]

freedom doesn't exist, because of tyrannicals like Bush, Sadaam, etc.
Bush cant be a tyrent.. this is the US our founding fathers made the presidency too week for the President to be a tyrent.. altho im glad you agree that saddam is a tyrent.. alot of people are anti-war because they think he is a good guy..

but Like I was saying Bush is not a tyrent.. unless Clinton was.. because they both attacked countries.. atleast "Bush's war" as you might call it although the congresional vote was unanimous.. hasn't got 17 of our most elete soldiers killed in one night on a mission that should have taken a hour.. along with over 1,000 of the people we were fighting.. (Mogodeshu)..

Bush may not be the best president.. In fact the only reason I support him is because..
1. he is the president

2. He is much better than Gore (a crazey eco-nut who says Bush will start an Ice age [FYI no one man can do that..]) and kerry (a man who's stance is what ever is most convenent at the time..)

3. "His war" has liberated the people of a country who have been supresed than longer than I have been alive... and "His war" on terrorism has cut off one of the major supporters of ben-ladin the next bigest threat to fredom, besides saddam Husaine, since Hitler..

Bush cant and will never be a tyrent and to say that he is is just rediculas..



well, as luck would have it, no. i am not an only son. yeah, sure you can say that they instigated it, which is partially true. i agree totally that something had to be done about the infamous attack on the capitalist commercial centers. but where does it stop? a 'war on terrorism' sounds kinda like an infinite endeavour. and although i don't toally disagree with the concept, it seems that there is a lot of money to be made and marbles to be won. dammit, im off topic

this chasm was caused thousands of years ago, before 'christ' himself supposedly walked the earth. if i recall correctly, weren't the hebrew people constanly trying to kill of someone, and vice versa? thats the problem with organised religion (at least in my opinion): there has to be an enemy, an infidel. this infidel, the battle against it rather, is a wonderful guise for alterior political motives. the terrorists want us out of the middle east so they can run things their way. they are, in my opinion, in need of enlightenment. its not the stone age anymore, anyway. the middle east has something the rest of the world needs to survive (in its current state), oil. let me say im not alluding that the war is about oil. dammit! the whole thing is stupid. i quit. hope you all have a nice day, followed by many more nice days. hope you dont get shipped off to iraq any time soon.

At least your somewhat reasonable.. Some people think we need to leave them alone and let them colapse on there stone-adge selves..
and yea the war on terrorism will take along time.. It may not be over in our lifetimes (although I doubt it may be) but we should do as best we can to stop as much terrorism as posible..

The war is clearly Sadaam's fault, but even if so, there could've been many more ways to avoid it. But now from the looks of it, Bush is using that to his advantage, to try and get re-elected, so he could institute his 'draft'. And that is completely opinion.
as you say that is opinion.. In my opinion I dont think your right.. there is no evidence to say its a re-election plot.. (even if so not goin to well by the looks of things IMHO he is smarter than that he would have chosen a better plot..) and there were only rumors about the draft being reinstated.. even the Liberal media isn't talking about it..


Cute, maybe, but there is certainly nothing intelegant about my behind, but thank you for the complement.
I will even admit that is a good comeback lol :p

but RA srry to say ur sinking to there level, my point was that swearing gets you no where.. debate there rediculas comments dont make your own.

[HippieLngstckng]

Holy crap, I only left this thread for a short while (I couldn't resist, I'm back, I need more of my Real American fix... LOL :rolleyes: ), and I return to find some kind of God awful mess!!!


rember he has the same rights as you do the first amendment and all alow him to say and feal how he wants with in reason.. and he is well w/ in reason.. as a Leftist im shure you like your first amendemnts rights while bush is president.. well rember he has them too.. and he can defend himself..

but R.A. dont call people smart ass' let others sink dont sink to that level.. you are smart enough to find actual ways to debate him and not call names..

EVERYONE on this board is better than this. We are ALL intelligent individuals with opinions that are worth being heard with an unjudgemental ear. Real American is not a bad guy, but I think that he's trying to make us think about why we feel the way we do. No, he's not necessarily doing a great job... Real American, I'm not attacking you, but when you come onto a forum where most people's opinions differ from yours, you should present your arguments respectfully if you actually want people to listen and make them honestly think about their opinions (why you are on here in the first place, correct?), otherwise, you're just wasting space. And I've been over how we shouldn't stoop to the level of insulting people back, just b/c it does nothing for the good of the whole debate. I came back here b/c I was craving some more good-natured fun (I don't take this stuff personally, by the way, I just become addicted to the nature of debate) and I find myself in the midst of a big f***ing mess, with a bunch of insults and nothing particularly enticing to comment on. PLEASE, you guys, be constructive in your criticism. Now we're just fighting, and no one is learning anything new. I believe we've covered most of this ground before.

[lunar forest]

I agree, HippieLngstckng, there's really no debate going on anymore! But hey, that's just coming from a smartass. :rolleyes:

[HippieLngstckng]

I agree, HippieLngstckng, there's really no debate going on anymore! But hey, that's just coming from a smartass. :rolleyes:
Hey, that was just my smartass commentary on the whole situation!
*grin* I'll wear that label with pride! I've been called MUCH worse...
Believe me! LOL! ;)

[lunar forest]

Hey, that was just my smartass commentary on the whole situation!
*grin* I'll wear that label with pride! I've been called MUCH worse...
Believe me! LOL! ;) lol, me too! ;)

[neoteny]

One thing I have noticed in this thread (particular in Real American's posts), is a connection between the events of September 11th and Saddam and Iraq. Only one person even brought up how incorrect this is, and they did it only in passing to which no one responded. Saddam Hussein had nothing to do with the hijackings, etc. I think anyone would agree that he was a horrible person, and that something needed to be done to help the Iraqi people, but you cannot say that he attacked America.

[Real American]

but you cannot say that he attacked America. I never said that. Didn't even imply it. The actual war on terrorism started in Afganistan. Then we moved into Iraq to take out a tyrant and hunt for Osama. Now that we have actualy liberated Iraq for the most part, we are searching for individual terrorist cells that support Osama in some way or ones with their own agenda. Where will we go after Iraq? I don't know, what I do know is that Bush called for a world wide war on terrorists and any nation that willingly and knowingly harbors them. You may want peace, but I'm sorry, in this world, you can't have peace with out fighting.

Real American, I'm not attacking you, but when you come onto a forum where most people's opinions differ from yours, you should present your arguments respectfully if you actually want people to listen and make them honestly think about their opinions I have done that. I see nothing wrong with calling a person a smart ass when indeed they are being one. No different than talking to my son and telling him to "don't be a smart mouth with me". It is simpy refering to a sarcastic action. The only other name was a draft dodger and something else, I don't remeber. But I explained myself with those as well.

Fact is though. Noone here has shown a good reason to run from the draft if it comes other than they are selfish. I feel if you aren't willing to fight for your country, then you don't belong here. I suggest you pack up now and leave. Head over to canada or Mexico before they come calling for you. Noone is asking you to fight for President Bush or his fealings on situations. Your country would be asking you however, to fight for your freedom. I'm not sure if you went to any of the sites I posted, but the threat is there. I forgot the estimated number of cells here in America, but I think it was something in the 90's. Imagine 90 cities being attacked at once? Then would you fight for your fellow Americans?

Oh, and I thought I would bring this up again because I was reading the posts over again.
those who might be doubting that this war is about oil, and that america (and everyone else for that matter) is running out of oil, and fast, here is a link to check out some of these truths. I'm assuming everyone is somewhat comfortable trusting that National Geographic isn't feeding us ull shit on this one.

http://magma.nationalgeographic.com...ure5/index.html (http://magma.nationalgeographic.com...ure5/index.html [/quote) I read it. Interesting read. Like I mentioned before, the price we get per gallon hasn't changed realy in the last 8 years. Now, let's imagine that one day we use up all the oil in the world. Well, I'm all for that. Electricity is far more cleaner than oil. Next year the first SuV with the Hybrid engine will be coming out. So what if we get there slower, it will certainly do the world good for us to stop raping the lands for oil. The war on terror isn't because of oil. We didn't take Sadam out of power because of oil.

[HippieLngstckng]

I'm taking a gamble on pissing off a lot of people, but I'm going to say this anyway. I supported the war in Afghanastan. Yes, I did. You know what, that was a bold move Osama bin Laden orchestrated in our own country, under our noses, and we had every right to go and disable the government that trained people in hatred and destruction. We had evidence of their involvement.

However, we cannot go into another country, wage war on it, and tear it apart just because "sources" (ooh, impressive) tell us that Osama MIGHT have gone into Iraq. Is Saddam a vicious bastard worthy of being barbequed on a stage in front of the people he oppressed and tortured? Yeah, probably. But those are the people who should be grilling his ass, not us. If they had really wanted him out of power enough to actually DO anything about it, they would have done it years ago, simply because they outnumber him. And if they allow themselves to be bullied by one little creep with a Napoleon complex, even though sheer numbers are in their favor, that's just plain stupid. We are being used as the workhorse, if anything.

By the way I've got a little riddle for ya'll ;)
"'Sources' think Osama's gone into Iraq, but that's not a reason to wage a war on a country that has nothing to do with our current situation, so we'll just say there's WMD in there so we have a legitimate excuse to go in. And when we do, all of the oil will be ours for the taking... Daddy will be thrilled."
Who am I?

LOL! :p

[MichaelByrd1967]

I completely agree with you. Bin Laden needed to be stopped, I did support the war in Afghanistan. But the war in Iraq is not justified. True we did bring Sadaam Hussein down from power, but he wasn't even involved in 9/11. And we haven't found any WMD yet, so what was the point?

NONE, WHATSOEVER!!!!!!

[MichaelByrd1967]

And to those who might bash me because of my previous statement.

Yes I know that I said much earlier that I don't believe in war, and I just stated that I supported the war in Afghanistan. I know some of you like Real American or Republican, will call me a hypocrite sooner or later. But I believe that the Afghanistan War is justifiable, because we had to capture a terrorist, who was responsible for the greatest mass murder ever. But going into Iraq, I think, was a wrong choice on Bush's part.

[Real American]

Well MichaelByrd1967, you said it yourself, so I wont say it. I do think it is funny that all of a sudden you support something you have so adamantly fought against here. They have found traces of them, and they did find a small amount. They didn't find some mass amount like they expected, but I still believe it's there. Especialy because we all know for a fact that Sadam tested his weapons on his own people and killed thousands of Iraqi's.

Might I also remind you that fear is a very powerfull weapon. Sure, the Iraqi people outnumbered Sadam. But you take in the fact that Sadam controled an army of over 250,000 soldiers, ass in that those soldiers were armed, plus most of the Iraqi's wern't and what do you have? An evil tyrant that uses fear as his control point.

One more point, HippieLngstckng, we both know that Iraq is a better country now for our invasion and removal of Sadam. You yourself sent me a copy of that email that was sent to your dad. That is the type of thing worth fighting for. Believe it or not, the soldiers over there believe that too. Noone forced these men and women to sign up, they did it on their own with the knowledge that they might one day be called apon to fight.

[MichaelByrd1967]

But that's the thing Real American. We are going to be forced to join the armed forces, against our will. Those who have joined up are good people for doing so, but so many people who object the war, myself included, will be FORCED to fight. Even people who file for conscientious objector status, won't be allowed to stay out of it. Those who pass the physical, will be forced to do something. Something that they don't want to do.

So tell me, how do know what the soldiers think about the war in Iraq? Were you involved in the Armed Forces? Did you go to any big battles? My cousin is in the Army as a computer technician, because he wanted to join. But through all of this, he doesn't support Bush or the war in Iraq. So tell me, do you think that many soldiers support Bush or the war at all?

[HippieLngstckng]

One more point, HippieLngstckng, we both know that Iraq is a better country now for our invasion and removal of Sadam. You yourself sent me a copy of that email that was sent to your dad. That is the type of thing worth fighting for. Believe it or not, the soldiers over there believe that too. Noone forced these men and women to sign up, they did it on their own with the knowledge that they might one day be called apon to fight.
I sure did send you a copy, and I hope that you enjoyed it! ;) (By the way, if anyone is interested, I have posted it in a thead entitled "The 'Truth' About The Situation In Iraq?", and it's up for commentary - Nicely now, folks!) Yes, I know that we as Americans will take good care of the Iraqis, it is our nature. I question whether it was our place to go there, that's all. And soldiers are civilians first, and had a choice and a responsibility to disobey orders that are not in the interests of the country as a whole. Fear is THE most powerful weapon, but to conquer fear, one must face their fears, not run and hide behind another person (in this case, country).

God bless our soldiers, I do support them (just not what our gov't has sent them to do, instigate war in another country). If they are called to be soldiers, they should do so for the precept of protecting freedom and peace. But not everyone is called to be a soldier, and the draft does not take that into account. The government doesn't care that I want to be a journalist, or that writing is my forte, not fighting. They would send an unprepared pacifistic woman to her death just to have one more number on the tally. And that's all you are to them, is a number. Forget that this number has a tender heart, a promising future, loves, hates, and a family. They just don't care when it comes down to the bottom line. But of course, that's just what I think.... *GRIN*

[lover/young_peace]

HippieLngStckng I adore you and I think you are one of the most polite and definitley hippest people on the forums but boy do you grin a lot. :D Still, I'm glad to see you smile!

[neoteny]

I never said that. Didn't even imply it.
Well, maybe you didn't intend to, but to me it seems like you are using the emotions stirred by September 11th to bolster your argument for the war in Iraq. I believe that is just as flawed as saying flat out that Iraq was involved in those acts of terrorism.

I'm sure you would cry and complain if we were attacked again but did nothing. Perhaps we should all go hug a tree and invite terrorists over for dinner?
For example, this has nothing to do with the war against Iraq. We were never attacked by that country in the first place, thus we could not be attacked again. This quote is what suggested the most strongly to me that you were attempting to draw a connection between Iraq and September 11th.

I'll show you every discusting picture I can find of what Sadam did to his people. I'll also show you pictures of Sept 11th and show you pictures of people jumping out of the buildings
The mention of September 11th seems very out of place in this quote. The rest of the stuff around it is a valid argument against Sadam, but why put in that second sentence?

Ok, I'm done. I just wanted to explain myself and show you why you came off as linking the two unrelated things.

[Real American]

All of my posts support the liberation of Iraq and the war on terrorism.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Real American
I'm sure you would cry and complain if we were attacked again but did nothing. Perhaps we should all go hug a tree and invite terrorists over for dinner?

For example, this has nothing to do with the war against Iraq. It has everything to do with the war on terrorism.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Real American
I'll show you every discusting picture I can find of what Sadam did to his people. I'll also show you pictures of Sept 11th and show you pictures of people jumping out of the buildings

The mention of September 11th seems very out of place in this quote. The rest of the stuff around it is a valid argument against Sadam, but why put in that second sentence? There are 2 things going on in Iraq, the search for terrorists, and finnishing the liberation of Iraq. I was getting my point accros of everything that is going on. Not combining the 2. Let me explain further:I'll show you every discusting picture I can find of what Sadam did to his people. To show why we needed to get him out....I'll also show you pictures of Sept 11th and show you pictures of people jumping out of the buildings To show why the war on terror is a good fight.

[HippieLngstckng]

HippieLngStckng I adore you and I think you are one of the most polite and definitley hippest people on the forums but boy do you grin a lot. :D Still, I'm glad to see you smile!

Thanks, L/YP! (That's my homie - LOL! - so don't mess w/ her... *grin*)
I sure do... If ever I can get some pictures on this board, you'll see why... I really do have a loopy grin on my face at all times... :D

Yippie, we're gonna blow up another country because we suspect (because our mystical, magical, invisible - and probably imaginary - "sources" tell us) you are harboring terrorists! Can you imagine the mess we would have if people could just go into someone else's home and tear it to pieces because they thought the people living there were up to something? There have been plenty of people who I have suspected of stealing from me, doing hard drugs, cheating with my boyfriend, and other sinister activities. What the heck would happen if I could just go busting in their homes, destroy their things, looking for my evidence? It is different when one has evidence beforehand, but everything that our country was going on to justify this invasion of Iraq was mere hearsay.

The war on terror IS INDEED a good fight, but are we going to let this become a witch-hunt? I thought Joe MacCarthy was dead. Let's not use his evil tactics in the name of a good fight. Because evil tactics used in the name of a good fight makes it a bad fight, plain and simple.

[lover/young_peace]

Thanks, L/YP! (That's my homie - LOL! - so don't mess w/ her... *grin*)
I sure do... If ever I can get some pictures on this board, you'll see why... I really do have a loopy grin on my face at all times... :D



im sure your smile is beautiful... every smile is gorgeous to see. Even my own cross-between-a-clown-&-a-chipmunk grin. hee hee. I'm glad you grin... it makes me smile myself. Thanks!:D

[Lucifer Sam]

I have been following this thread, and I have to say, it sure has gotten interesting! Also, Real American, I REALLY don't get you... sorry sir, but sometimes, your statements totally lack reason.

I do, however, have a question for you R.A. If you are so patriotic and so supportive of U.S. "assistance" in foreign affairs, then why, may I ask, did you refrain from enlisting in the military? You obviously didn't want anything to do with the military, but when someone else explains how he/she fears the draft, you don't have a problem jumping on him/her and calling people childish names. Heh, it's easy for you to be supportive of a war that will not involve you or your son. I have a feeling you might feel a little bit different about the whole situation if your son was about 18 years old right now.

Also, Real American, don't try to cover yourself. You DID try to create a false correlation between September 11th and Iraq. You have continued to accuse others of being "uneducated" when you are no more educated than they are. Heh, you warn others of making themselves appear stupid when have done just that for yourself, in my opinion.

The U.S. has, sadly, learned nothing from Vietnam... fools. They should have gone into Afghanistan full force with an all-out offensive and taken out Osama, not Saddam. They should have kept their focus on Afghanistan, and THEN moved, IF NECESSARY, to Iraq.

We screwed up, not to mention the fact that our intelligence agency has actually admitted to screwing up on their information. We've gotten ourselves into something that will, likely, take a long time to get out of. Colin Powell, who actually has military experience unlike Bush, warned the President of the mistakes he was making, but our President is a fool, and he didn't listen.

Ever wonder why Bush's daughters aren't over in Iraq? If Bush thinks this is such a serious problem, why aren't his daughters fighting?

[Real American]

I do, however, have a question for you R.A. If you are so patriotic and so supportive of U.S. "assistance" in foreign affairs, then why, may I ask, did you refrain from enlisting in the military? You obviously didn't want anything to do with the military, but when someone else explains how he/she fears the draft, you don't have a problem jumping on him/her and calling people childish names. Heh, it's easy for you to be supportive of a war that will not involve you or your son. I have a feeling you might feel a little bit different about the whole situation if your son was about 18 years old right now. Wow, I didn't even finnish reading your post. I just stopped at that and went directly to reply. Apparently you either skipped over some parts, or just forgot them. So, I resay it. I did try to enlist. I took the asfab and scored very high. However, due to my weight, I was turned away. However, my brother Aaron has served, and is serving now. He was actualy apart of everything over seas in Bosnia. Lot's of interesting things I'm not supposed to talk about there. Our good friend's wife just recently got shipped to Iraq. So, before you jump the guns and assume something about a person, please save your self the embarasment and just ask.

Also, Real American, don't try to cover yourself. You DID try to create a false correlation between September 11th and Iraq. You have continued to accuse others of being "uneducated" when you are no more educated than they are. Heh, you warn others of making themselves appear stupid when have done just that for yourself, in my opinion. Your opinion of my statements is wrong. Re-read them again.

They should have gone into Afghanistan full force with an all-out offensive and taken out Osama, not Saddam. They should have kept their focus on Afghanistan, and THEN moved, IF NECESSARY, to Iraq.Sadly, they did not find him there. I myself stratigicly speaking probaly would have entered Iran first before Iraq. However, I did see the need for the removal of that tyrant Saddam. So I look at it as killing 2 birds with one stone. Taking out a tyrant and ridding the Iraqi land of terrorist cells.

Ever wonder why Bush's daughters aren't over in Iraq? If Bush thinks this is such a serious problem, why aren't his daughters fighting? No actualy, I never wondered about that. I personaly don't think women should be drafted, but then again, imagine the outrage of womens rights activists all over if they were left behind.

[crummyrummy]

us fat guys, we dont count.

[HippieLngstckng]

us fat guys, we dont count.Shut up... I love fat guys! LOL! :D

Your opinion of my statements is wrong. Re-read them again.
Ummm, RA, you and I... I think we've agreed to disagree, and I really have enjoyed debating with you, but you really shouldn't tell someone that their opinion is wrong. Opinions are like a**holes, everyone has one, and everyone thinks that everyone else's stinks, because it's just that, an opinion. They can't be right or wrong... And no matter how many times I re-read our stuff, I still don't agree w/ you (sorry!), but that doesn't mean we can't get along, just because we can't see eye to eye. Do you see what I'm getting at? ;)

[Real American]

They are implying that I think there is a link between Saddam and the event's of 9/11. Nowhere in my posts did I emply it. When they took statements of mine and tried to make some connection, I showed them where they were wrong. Opinions can be wrong, and in this case, their opinions of my statements are. Imagine looking at a piece of art and saying "I think the artist was trying to say this" and the the artist walking up behind you and saying "No, sorry, I wassn't".

[HippieLngstckng]

I've got to say that I see how they could have thought that though, hon. The war on terror was instigated by the events of September 11, for which Al Quida and Afghanistan were responsible. We took care of Afghanistan, and since our miraculous "sources" said they thought Osama went into Iraq, we started to find "reasons" (excuses) i.e. WMD to turn our eyes to Iraq. So it's not necessarily that you in and of yourself made this correlation, but you did say that you supported and believed in this notion, that the war on terror should only naturally include Iraq, for the reasons the gov't cited. What we're getting at is that this is not a natural correlation, we didn't have enough evidence to go in there... that's all.

[Lucifer Sam]

Well, I have to admit that I didn't read the part where you, Real American, explained that you tried to join the ranks. I'm sorry for accusing you. However, that fact that you tried to sign up does make me feel a bit better about the whole argument/discussion thing going on here. It helps you to better back up your statements, in my eyes.

Anyway, I don't think that you can change my mind about the fact that you made an incorrect relationship between September 11th and Iraq, but it doesn't really matter. Neither of us will back down, so there is really no point in arguing about it.



Oh, and about the Bush's daughter thing, I didn't really mean that they should be drafted. I meant that if this is such a serious problem we're facing, then Bush's daughters should be serving as well... they should be signing up to help their father's effort. Also, supposedly, from what I've read from other posts on this thread, a new draft would include women, so they COULD be drafted... but they won't be. Bush doesn't have a problem sending OTHER people's children to die, but he won't send his own.



I know this a VERY idealistic and very hippy thing to think, but I hope that someday, we will be able to solve these problems without killing... war is terrible. No one EVER comes out a true winner in a war. Everyone loses. Allow me to quote the Zombies from their song called "Butcher's Tale (Western Front 1914)" about WWI:



And I can't stop shaking

My hands won't stop shaking

My arms won't stop shaking

My mind won't stop shaking



I want to go home

Please let me go home

Go home

[Republican]

But that's the thing Real American. We are going to be forced to join the armed forces, against our will. Those who have joined up are good people for doing so, but so many people who object the war, myself included, will be FORCED to fight. Even people who file for conscientious objector status, won't be allowed to stay out of it. Those who pass the physical, will be forced to do something. Something that they don't want to do.

So tell me, how do know what the soldiers think about the war in Iraq? Were you involved in the Armed Forces? Did you go to any big battles? My cousin is in the Army as a computer technician, because he wanted to join. But through all of this, he doesn't support Bush or the war in Iraq. So tell me, do you think that many soldiers support Bush or the war at all?
the only reason the draft would be instated is because people dont want to join the armed forces.. I respect your opinions but we wouldn't be in this mess if more people would join now would we? kinda sad how un-american Americans are now.. they used to join the millitary for what is right not because they dont support the war..

[NCguitarhippie]

yo republican. we don't support the war because it's wrong

[lunar forest]

yo republican. we don't support the war because it's wrong lol - so well said!

[Real American]

Here we go again!

yo republican. we don't support the war because it's wrong Proof please. What makes it wrong? Before you answer, please read every post in this thread as I am sure your reasons have been covered.

[HippieLngstckng]

The war on terror was instigated by the events of September 11, for which Al Quida and Afghanistan were responsible. We took care of Afghanistan, and since our miraculous "sources" said they thought Osama went into Iraq, we started to find "reasons" (excuses) i.e. WMD to turn our eyes to Iraq.
This is why I feel it is wrong.

Afghanistan deserved invasion, we had proof of involvement regarding 9/11. We didn't have enough evidence about anything worthy of invasion for Iraq. Not that we wouldn't have found something had we investigated more... but now we look like a bunch of asses, b/c we haven't found Bin Laden in Iraq, and we don't have any WMD either. Looks like EVERYONE needs to read more carefully... :p

[lunar forest]

How's this:

Regardless of why we think it is wrong, if we think it is wrong we shouldn't have to be a part of it, and certainly shouldn't have to kill people because of it! Even if the only reason we think it is wrong is that it just doesn't feel right!

I am not just trying t avoid answering your question, ra, but we've been over why we feel it is wrong, and you just don't like anyone's reasons. That is fine, you don't have to, and we don't have to like your reasons for thinking it is right. Those are what we call opinions, and we are all entitled to them. No one should be forced to do something that they do not agree with, that is wrong!

[HippieLngstckng]

How's this:

Regardless of why we think it is wrong, if we think it is wrong we shouldn't have to be a part of it, and certainly shouldn't have to kill people because of it! Even if the only reason we think it is wrong is that it just doesn't feel right!

I am not just trying t avoid answering your question, ra, but we've been over why we feel it is wrong, and you just don't like anyone's reasons. That is fine, you don't have to, and we don't have to like your reasons for thinking it is right. Those are what we call opinions, and we are all entitled to them. No one should be forced to do something that they do not agree with, that is wrong!

*GRIN* I agree. That is, after all, the point of this thread is to discuss the draft, not whether America was in the right to go forth w/ their occupation. And since we don't think the U.S. was in the right, we shouldn't have to fight and die because someone else says it's the right thing to do.
Just the facts, Jack! :D

[MichaelByrd1967]

And Real American, we're down your opinions. Just don't shout down ours.

[Real American]

Umm, I'm not. Did you read my last post? I asked a person why? Geez I'm sick and tired of everyone here telling me my opinion is wrong then forcing theirs on me. I never said you aren't entitled to yours....I AM SIMPLY DISCUSING IT WITH YOU! Over and over I her "ra, you just don't listen" "ra, you don't believe anyone elses" BLAH BLAH BLAH. Holy crap people. The object here is someone posts their opinion, then someone replies with either an agreement or not. Then a rebutle, and so on and so forth. I made a post discussing my fealings on the draft, and then all of a sudden I am attacked for it. The posting then went to me defending myself over and over.

NOW...a new person came into the thread and made a post. I directed my question to him clearly because I ALREADY KNEW HOW YOU FEALT....am I not allowed to further the convorsation with someone else? I'll quote myself again, this time read it folks!

Here we go again!
Quote:
yo republican. we don't support the war because it's wrong
Proof please. What makes it wrong? Before you answer, please read every post in this thread as I am sure your reasons have been covered.
One more thing I'll direct to all of you. If you support the fight on terrorism, well guess what, that's what is happeneing in Iraq now. We are no longer at war with Iraq. Sadam has been removed from power. A new government is beig formed. We are now figting terrorism.

[lunar forest]

I think the problem that most of us have, and what you say is "attacking" you, ra, would be your name calling and belittling of other's opinions. You don't have to agree with anyone, you can even try your hardest to disprove their theories, but you should remain respectful, or get used to being "attacked."

[Lucifer Sam]

Haha, Real American, you're one to talk! Before you posted on this thread, everyone was discussing, PEACEFULLY, the thought of a possible draft. Then, you came prancing in here and just started attacking everyone, adding nothing to the actual discussion of the draft. Just admit it, you LOVE to argue... that's fine, as many people do, but don't act like YOU'RE the one who's being attacked.

Heh, just your name is an attack... "Real American," sounds as if you're suggesting that the rest of us AREN'T real Americans. :rolleyes:

[Lucifer Sam]

Oh, and one more thing, Real American, quit telling everyone to PROVE their opinions! It's an opinion for crying out loud! It doesn't need to be proven! That's what makes it an opinion! O_o

[HippieLngstckng]

RA, nobody's forcing their opinion on you, we all know how you feel, and you know how we feel... Perhaps it would be easier if when you are asking a question of a specific person to make sure it is clear that you are directing the question to them. I think all parties included in this discussion understand that no one is going to change anyone's mind, here. There's not gonna be any converts in this thread! :p


But as I was trying to say before, we've gotten off the point of the thread... How the hell are we going to send someone to fight in a war to possibly die if they don't believe in fighting or war? Who the hell is our government to dictate whether we live or die, to tell us what we need to do with our lives? This is SUPPOSED to be a free country. If the draft is reinstated for everyone, man and woman alike, how can we call this a free country when nobody's even free to make the choice to live, period?

[Republican]

This is why I feel it is wrong.



Afghanistan deserved invasion, we had proof of involvement regarding 9/11. We didn't have enough evidence about anything worthy of invasion for Iraq. Not that we wouldn't have found something had we investigated more... but now we look like a bunch of asses, b/c we haven't found Bin Laden in Iraq, and we don't have any WMD either. Looks like EVERYONE needs to read more carefully...



I feel that torture chambers and death camps were good reasons... the fact that people who said bad things about Saddam, if they were men, there wives were raped and the video is given to the man and he has to suffer through watching his wife raped.. Then Saddam gets a copy and he watches it like porn...



If that’s not enough Saddam killed the Kurds... let me ask you? You get mad at Israel for there strong attack on Palestine... well Saddam has killed sooooo many more Kurds and palistinians than Isreal have...





Also as the CIA world fact book said



Following Kuwait's liberation, the UN Security Council (UNSC) required Iraq to scrap all weapons of mass destruction and long-range missiles and to allow UN verification inspections. Continued Iraqi noncompliance with UNSC resolutions over a period of 12 years resulted in the US-led invasion of Iraq in March 2003 and the ouster of the SADDAM Hussein regime.



http://cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/iz.html (http://cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/iz.html)



The facts are that Bush's Intel was off because it failed to mention that the weapons were hidden.... You have no proof that they don’t exist... u only bank on the fact that we have not found aney... well we have been attacked by seren gas a chemical weapon... a WMD... and not to mention that I could easily hide asmany WMDs as I want in the Iraqi deserts


Oh, and one more thing, Real American, quit telling everyone to PROVE their opinions! It's an opinion for crying out loud! It doesn't need to be proven! That's what makes it an opinion! O_o
True but he is trying to ask you to proove what u say.. when its crazey...
I can say Saddam is a great guy.. but thats not true and stuped.. so.. dont belive stuped things..

[Lucifer Sam]

True but he is trying to ask you to proove what u say.. when its crazey...
I can say Saddam is a great guy.. but thats not true and stuped.. so.. dont belive stuped things..
Oh... my... God. How ironic is that? You are telling people not to believe "stupId" things when you can't even spell the damn word! (You screwed up seven other words as well, but that's off the point.) :)

[gEo_tehaD_returns]

"The facts are that Bush's Intel was off because it failed to mention that the weapons were hidden.... You have no proof that they don’t exist... u only bank on the fact that we have not found aney... well we have been attacked by seren gas a chemical weapon... a WMD... and not to mention that I could easily hide asmany WMDs as I want in the Iraqi deserts"


Hidden? What were all those satellite pictures showing the buildings that housed the supposed WMDs back before the US attacked?

[Lucifer Sam]

Hidden? What were all those satellite pictures showing the buildings that housed the supposed WMDs back before the US attacked?Good point. I recall those pictures...

Hmm, just thinking, say Iraq actually had WMD and we found them and took control of them. That would in no way make me support this war. Everyone keeps using the fact that "there could be weapons of mass destruction" when that in no way is a factor that would swing my support for the war in Iraq. Who cares if they have/had WMD? Did they attack us with them? No. So, why is the U.S. allowed to have WMD (you know we do) but Iraq cannot? It doesn't make any sense.

Also, (this one especially goes out to Real American if he is still around) if you are one of the ones who fully supports this war, then I have a question for you. Since you think this cause is worth the loss of human life, then would you give up the life of your own child to secure Fallujah (sp?)? Or perhaps your spouse's life? No, I really doubt you would.

[Real American]

Well assumption is the mother of all f-ups. My son is 6 yrs old and can't fight in any war. My wife is to old to be drafted, but if she decided she wanted to join one of our nations military services, then I would support her decision. If I am still alive when my son is old enough and he decides he wants to join, I will support him. How very childish of you to assume that you know me.

OK, first off, the war in Iraq is over, and has been over. What we are fighting in Iraq right now is terrorist cells. As far as this statement here:Did they attack us with them? No. So, why is the U.S. allowed to have WMD (you know we do) but Iraq cannot? It doesn't make any sense. Well, the US doesn't exactly test their weapons on their own people do they?

I honestly don't think anything would make you support this "war" unless you were directly affected. Wich sadly is the way most selfish Americans think.

[HippieLngstckng]

Go get 'em, boys! GRRRRR!!! :X

LOL!

[freedbypeace]

THEY PROMISED that my 19-yr-old brother would never get drafted or have to be diployed. Well guess what?,....THEY LIED! My brother's # has come up 3 times to get diployed and his friend who was promised the same thing recently got diployed. My dad said if he gets diployed and gets killed he is personally going after bush. FIGHT THE POWER!

[Prisoner #6]

Sarin gas has a shelf life of 3 months. The Sarin gas that was found was found after Saddam was in custody. Unless Saddam has Lex Luthor-like planning ability to organize manufacturing Sarin Gas from a hole in the ground or a jail cell, the Sarin gas we found came in after we invaded and after we captured Saddam.
As far as reasons for this War,
OIL!you need look no further.
The WMD turned out to be hype, all experts and people who had anything to do with intelligence and weapons inpections (Scott Ritter, Joseph Wilson, Ray McGovern, etc.) were saying this BEFORE the war started!
The Iraq/ Al-Quieda link was nonexistent. The best that ABC could find before the war was three men in prison in Northern Iraq(which Saddam didn't control) who turned out to be lying! The 9-11 commission concluded the same thing recently.
The 9/11 highjackers were Saudis and Egyptians. Niether coutry faced the possibility of invasion. But Iraq, was an easy target with its infrastructure crumbling due to 12 tears of sanctions (condemned by the Vatican no less). An easy target with a lot of OIL!
If you don't want a constant war for oil. Or just a constant war. (The draft is a very real possibility. Both Houses of Congress have bills on the backburner, waiting for a vote after the election), then get involved and DO SOMETHING NOW!!!
Volunteer at the Democratic Party to help unseat Bush!
Write and call your Senators and Congressmen.
Seek out and involve yourself in peacekeeping organizations in your area.

Be Seeing You

[Real American]

Volunteer at the Democratic Party to help unseat Bush! So you think doing this will stop terrorists? That is just lame. Once again, even if you think the war ws over oil, it removed a deranged man from power. It removed a murderer. He did use wmd's on his own people. If Bush was to do this you would be screaming and holering to stop him. So enough with the mentality that "it's not our problem" crap. Seriously folks, you want peace you have to fight for it. Obviously the Iraqi's were unable to fight for themselves. Now we are fighting terrorists that only seek to destroy and cause havoc in peoples lives. What kind of barbarians behead people? I'll say this and end my debate here, if you don't like the idea of having to serve your country, then get the hell out. You are free to leave right now. Pack your bags and move to France for all I care. Obviously you take the freedom you so adimantly cry about for granted. PEOPLE DIED SO YOU COULD HAVE YOU FREEDOM, WHY IS IT SO BAD THAT PEOPLE DIE TO GIVE OTHERS FREEDOM NOW? Go on, leave, America will be a better place without the cowards. Oh, and that is an attack to all of you that want to hide from the draft. From now on, I'll just read your post, but obviously nothing I say will change your mind. Obviously you don't think other people deserve freedom.

[Prisoner #6]

Hello R.A.

I believe you are sincere when you talk about stopping terrorists.
Since your question "How would that stop terrorists?" is a valid one, I'll give you by personal answer based on incidents in history that occurred at the same time.
Northern Ireland and Israel have had massive problems with terrorism. In the 1990s, the hard right Likud party came to power with a philosophy similar to the neo-cons. Attack without mercy, civilian casualties are not a problem, it's terrorism when they attack us with a suicide bomber, but not when we massacre them in Jenin. Things have never been worse in Israel and they've been pursuing this policy for a long time. They will be locked in a state of permanent war until this changes. Not that the few who profit from war in Israel mind this.
Northern Ireland invited the IRA to the table, negotiated a cease-fire, and eventually gave the disenfranchised Irish (who had nothing to lose by becoming terrorists) a voice in the system. The IRA evaporated! It was once #1 on the FBI's list of dangerous terrorist organizations. Now there are only a few hard core elements left that are dealt with as criminals and locked away.
Looking at this and looking at Bush's actions, I have to question whether he and those controlling him genuinely want to end terrorism. Do they instead wish for a state of permanent war?Once again, those truly selfish Americans whocharge $250 million for a defense contract they then sub contract out for $600K, don't mind this one bit!
By the way, for the record, Reagan's special envoy to Iraq in 1983, Donald Rumsfeld, SOLD Saddam Hussein WMDs during his worst atrocities. After the Gulf War those Iraqi people who were "unable to fight for themselves" tried to unseat Saddam and Bush Sr. turned his back on them and gave Saddam 1 billion in loan guarentees.
"What kind of barbarians behead people?" Try the Saudi Royal Govt.(very good friends of the Bush family) I know you won't see Farenheit 911, but it does contain graphic footage of a state sponsored beheading.
And for the record, IT'S OUR COUNTRY TOO! Anyone that is exercising their freedom of speech at a time when it is difficult is every bit the patriot as someone who listens to FOX NEWS, never questions it and merely parrots what he hears. Speaking your mind when it is difficult and might carry significant personal risk is an act of selflessness and bravery not cowardice!
RA, I believe you are sincere in wanting to "Support Our Troops". Those of us who believe we are being lied to from our "leaders", want our troops home and out of danger, and not protecting the interests of War Profiteers! Bush and the Republican Congress showed thier "support" for our troops by cutting thier benefits, (including thier hazard pay benefits).
You probably don't believe it but I do wish you the best and hope that one day you are able to free your mind. :rolleyes:

[Lucifer Sam]

Well assumption is the mother of all f-ups. My son is 6 yrs old and can't fight in any war. My wife is to old to be drafted, but if she decided she wanted to join one of our nations military services, then I would support her decision. If I am still alive when my son is old enough and he decides he wants to join, I will support him. How very childish of you to assume that you know me.
Ugh, leave the age out of it. That isn't what I meant. What I AM saying is that you support this war, but you wouldn't give up the life of a loved one to help its cause. For example, would you (I KNOW THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE, R.A.) allow for the death of a loved one to secure a stupid police force in Iraq? No way you would (unless your crazy.) That's what I'm trying to say... you don't mind that other people die for truly useless causes, but you wouldn't want any of your loved ones to die for the same cause. Now, before you say ANYTHING, that situation was hypothetical.

OK, first off, the war in Iraq is over, and has been over. What we are fighting in Iraq right now is terrorist cells.
Actually, they are attempting to assist in the creation of a solid government system in Iraq... you know, setting up police, fire, medical. Well, all of that is good, but there are many more people who need a lot more help than the Iraqis. There are people starving all over the world and living under power-drunk leaders. There are tons of people dying from disease in other nations. If we are SO worried about the well being of people from other nations, then we should go and help out some of those who REALLY need it.

As far as this statement here: Well, the US doesn't exactly test their weapons on their own people do they?
Actually, yes, we have tested weapons on our own people. I read about a case that described an event when we were first testing nuclear bombs (for the future drops on Hiroshima and Nagasaki) and while testing, we ended up killing multiple people who were part of the testing process. So, to answer your question, yes, we DO test weapons on our own people.

I honestly don't think anything would make you support this "war" unless you were directly affected. Wich sadly is the way most selfish Americans think.
If you think not supporting a decision that the American government makes means you are not a "Real American," then you don't understand anything about our nation. We have the right to exercise our opinions! If everyone acted like you do then we would never make any improvements to our government. Heck, if people acted like you, our nation would still be segregated. Women wouldn't be voting. Think about what you are saying here...

[Real American]

I couldn't pass this up, so I am replying.


I know you won't see Farenheit 911Yet again, someone assuming. I have seen it and it was interesting. Moore himself said that it was a biased film that did not cover both sides of the story. Amazingly you like many other drones are so quick to believe what you hear the first time without doing your own research. Want to know what I think is funny? Other than your IRA analogy, your entire reply consists of information you learned by watching a left wing documentary. You my friend are a coward. I don't care if Bush is in office or Kerry. Either way you will always have corruption. If you think the corruption will end, you are a moron. I will ask you this one question, and I want you to think carefully before you answer it. Do the Iraqi people deserve what we have(ie freedom, hospitals, education). If you say no they don't, then you are a selfish degenerate that needs a serious attitude adjustment. If you say yes they do, then tell me why you are complaining about men and women fighting for that right? Tell me why it was ok for men ages ago to fight and kill for your freedom, but not now, and not for someone else?

As for the child Lucifer Sam:
Ugh, leave the age out of it. That isn't what I meant. What I AM saying is that you support this war, but you wouldn't give up the life of a loved one to help its cause. For example, would you (I KNOW THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE, R.A.) allow for the death of a loved one to secure a stupid police force in Iraq? No way you would (unless your crazy.) That's what I'm trying to say... you don't mind that other people die for truly useless causes, but you wouldn't want any of your loved ones to die for the same cause. Now, before you say ANYTHING, that situation was hypothetical. I personaly noone wants their loved ones to die. For you assume that I don't care for the lives of the others, well, again, you don't know me. If only there was a way for mw to show you my true emotions on this subject online. You are no different than the rest of the cowards. As I have said to another coward, I will fight for you and your family, so you can sit home and cry about your rights being taken away.

but there are many more people who need a lot more help than the Iraqis. There are people starving all over the world and living under power-drunk leaders. There are tons of people dying from disease in other nations. If we are SO worried about the well being of people from other nations, then we should go and help out some of those who REALLY need it. As of right now, the war is on terrorism. I am quit posative if it continues, we will end up helping other countries. Unless you are suggesting that we send 25,000 soldiers to each country to "help" them, well, that's just dumb. I am sure at your young age, you remeber hearing "one thing at a time".

Actually, yes, we have tested weapons on our own people. I read about a case that described an event when we were first testing nuclear bombs (for the future drops on Hiroshima and Nagasaki) and while testing, we ended up killing multiple people who were part of the testing process. So, to answer your question, yes, we DO test weapons on our own people.Are you serriously this stupid? So you are saying that our government at one point was testing nuclear weapons, and several people involved in the testing procces were purposfully killed? No you moron, it was an accident, as accidents do happen. So NO, we don't test weapons of mass destruction on our own people.

We have the right to exercise our opinionsBECAUSE SOMEONE DIED FOR YOU TO BE ABLE TO! Hopefully, very soon, Iraqi's will be able to say the same thing. Ofcourse, with them expiriencing it first hand, they will likely appreciate their freedom more tha nyou ever could.

Heck, if people acted like you, our nation would still be segregated. Women wouldn't be voting. Think about what you are saying here...I take back my question now, I now know you are truely this stupid.

[HippieLngstckng]

You my friend are a coward.

If you think the corruption will end, you are a moron.

As for the child Lucifer Sam:

As I have said to another coward, I will fight for you and your family, so you can sit home and cry about your rights being taken away.

Are you serriously this stupid?

No you moron,

I take back my question now, I now know you are truely this stupid.
I'm actually really angry now... I've never been truly angry with anyone on this board. But now, this is for real... :$

RA, look at how damn condecending you are. Look at what I just pulled out of your post, really read over it, and tell me why people would listen to someone who insults them at every turn? This is ludicrous, you can't even spell simple words like "quite", "seriously", and "truly", and you have the audacity to call people stupid. I had tried to see where you are coming from, I tried to meet you halfway, I tried not to be judgemental, regardless of you lack of concern for others opinions and feelings. I even defended you and your opinions from the others, but now I see what they have seen all of this time. You aren't here to discuss opinions. You're here to attack people that don't feel the same way.


If you think the corruption will end, you are a moron.

I will ask you this one question, and I want you to think carefully before you answer it. Do the Iraqi people deserve what we have(ie freedom, hospitals, education). If you say no they don't, then you are a selfish degenerate that needs a serious attitude adjustment. If you say yes they do, then tell me why you are complaining about men and women fighting for that right? Tell me why it was ok for men ages ago to fight and kill for your freedom, but not now, and not for someone else?

As I have said to another coward, I will fight for you and your family, so you can sit home and cry about your rights being taken away.

As of right now, the war is on terrorism. I am quit posative if it continues, we will end up helping other countries. Unless you are suggesting that we send 25,000 soldiers to each country to "help" them, well, that's just dumb. I am sure at your young age, you remeber hearing "one thing at a time".

1) No the corruption won't end. All politicians are corrupt and invest in their own interests... Usually through "special interest groups" that have them in their back pocket. But this goes for ALL parties.

2) Again, American lives perished to pay for American freedoms. Iraqis should have done the same. NO AMERICAN BLOOD FOR FOREIGN LIVES.

3) If we don't believe in fighting, no one should make us go. We have the right to claim pacifism, and if we are pacifists we will do so. Our gov't gives us the right. Not necessarily that they will honor that, but they have no honor most of the time anyway.

4) Oh yes, let's "help" them by killing civilians and going against the UN's wishes, I love it when the U.S. is made into a bigger international a**hole than it already is. The UN was created to help keep the peace, and if we aren't participating as a peaceful nation, what is the point in being a member if we aren't going to cooperate?

[Real American]

Selfish cowards. You are afraid to help other people. You think you are better than them. Seriously, pack up and leave America, you aren't an example of why men and women died. Oh, and while you are at it noticing my spelling errors, pull a Sherlock Holmes and see what time I made the post. After a very long days work, dealing with morons, I came home and found more. I didn't make lucifer sam type those things about me. I didn't make him type things he has no clue about. As a matter of fact, I have tried my best to see other peoples points of views. So when I get a crap load of hippies yelling at me when I ask a guy why he says the war is wrong, you can understand my urge to slap the facts right into your head. You say you are a pacafist, yet men fighting for our freedom was ok? BULL CRAP! I truly believe that if it came down to it right now, this very minute, that you were asked to defend your country and protect our freedom, you would run like a coward screaming "I'm a pacifist".

[HippieLngstckng]

Actually that's where you don't know ME, sir. No, you are right, I'm not a true pacifist, but there are people who are. I will vouch for them. They will not fight under any circumstance. I, personally, would be of no use to the military, as I have no skills that they could possibly use, so it is a waste of their time and mine. (Unless they need a military journalist, which is kind of an oxymoron, considering how "hush hush" military business is)

I've tried to meet you halfway, I've tried to understand, but you are certainly cocksure of yourself, so much so, in fact, that you've tried to insult me, and I'm the only one on here who even ATTEMPTS to defend you. But I do get tired of watching you insult my fellow forum folks, and it's about time I said something about it. You were the one who started everything off with a piss poor attitude (read your first post, or do I need to break down the insults in that one). Some people are getting tired, and returning the piss poor attitude right back to you.... At first, I said, rise above angry answers! Now I say, WHAT WAS I THINKING??? We've beaten this subject to death, and we aren't covering any new ground, because you can't agree to disagree with people.

As for me, I am tempered enough to say that Afghanistan was the right fight. And if there had been more evidence of Iraq's involvement in 9/11, I might feel differently about all of this. WE DIDN'T HAVE ENOUGH EVIDENCE. We can't go declaring war on everyone we are suspect of. If we (the U.S.) were a police force that went into someone home (Iraq) under mere suspicion of illegal activity without a warrent (approval of the UN), our whole case would be thrown out right about now.

And no, RA, I'm not better than anyone else... It's not ME who thinks they are better than others, for any reason, whatsoever. I just feel that people should reap rewards that they work for. I don't like freeloaders... The Iraqis are the cowards for not fighting for their own freedom, WE are of sane mind, and don't like the idea of dying FOR cowards. Stand up to your government and your administration if you don't support their causes! (We, the damn hippies, do it all of the time)

And besides, do you really think the Arabs would die for you, RA?

[Lucifer Sam]

You are no different than the rest of the cowards. As I have said to another coward, I will fight for you and your family, so you can sit home and cry about your rights being taken away.
What the Hell are you talking about? That basically makes no sense. First of all, how in the Hell do you know that I'm a coward? I never said that I would dodge a draft and I never said that I don't support war of any kind... all I said is that I don't support THIS war. Also, what is this about you saying you will fight for my family and I? What are you talking about? You act like we're being invaded or something... seriously, you make no sense and, for lack of a better phrase, are full of shit. You just came on here to bash hippies... didn't you realize that this place is BASED ON HIPPIES / THE HIPPY MOVEMENT?!

As of right now, the war is on terrorism.
Ok, my cousin is in Iraq right now and he said that at the moment they are working on securing a police force and emergency medical services and NOT fighting terrorism. I suppose you will say that he is wrong, but, meh, I don't give a shit anymore.

Unless you are suggesting that we send 25,000 soldiers to each country to "help" them, well, that's just dumb. I am sure at your young age, you remeber hearing "one thing at a time".
No, I was not suggesting that, you idiot. If you knew how to fucking read AND understand at the same time you would have gotten it. Now, what I WAS saying is that the Iraqis' rights to free speech aren't as important as providing food, shelter, and medicine to those who really need it. Of course, we aren't helping in those nations who really need it because we don't have any interests there... gives us nothing to gain. Our government is greedy, believe it or not, and they are in Iraq for certain interests.

Are you serriously this stupid? So you are saying that our government at one point was testing nuclear weapons, and several people involved in the testing procces were purposfully killed? No you moron, it was an accident, as accidents do happen. So NO, we don't test weapons of mass destruction on our own people.
God, here we go again. I never said that they were deliberately killed, and I never said that it wasn't an accident. I said that the weapon was tested and that Americans died as a result. Now, since according to you I am a moron, you will obviously disagree, but I definitely see that as testing on our people... I don't care if they were meant to die, but they did.

BECAUSE SOMEONE DIED FOR YOU TO BE ABLE TO! Hopefully, very soon, Iraqi's will be able to say the same thing. Ofcourse, with them expiriencing it first hand, they will likely appreciate their freedom more tha nyou ever could.
UGH!!! Wow... Ok, so you acknowledge that people died for our freedom to have and display our own opinions, yet when one of us has a different opinion than yours, it's not ok, and you attack him/her? You are a hypocrite.

I take back my question now, I now know you are truely this stupid.
Shut up... you have displayed to many that you are a total, close-minded idiot so you ought to just shut your mouth. You have attacked everyone who has disagreed with you. In fact you attacked EVERYONE on these forums with this statement: "So when I get a crap load of hippies yelling at me..." Ok, so now we are a crap load of hippies... seriously, you, Real American, are the scum of the Earth.

Seriously, pack up and leave America, you aren't an example of why men and women died.
Oh, but you are? Just because we don't support an unjust war we don't deserve to live in The United States? YOU are the moron. PART OF WHAT MAKES AMERICA GREAT IS THAT YOU CAN, AND SHOULD, DISAGREE WITH THE GOVERNMENT! THAT IS WHAT PEOPLE FOUGHT FOR!

Other than your IRA analogy, your entire reply consists of information you learned by watching a left wing documentary. You my friend are a coward.
You my friend are an asshole. Because, in your opinion, his defense came from a left-wing documentary, he is a coward?! That makes no sense, just like most of the other shit you have posted.

After a very long days work, dealing with morons, I came home and found more.
You have a superiority complex, no doubt. You think you're better than the "crap load of hippies" on this forum, and, well, it looks like you think you're better than everyone. As I said before, your name being "Real American" says it all.

I truly believe that if it came down to it right now, this very minute, that you were asked to defend your country and protect our freedom, you would run like a coward screaming "I'm a pacifist".
Hmm... funny that you attack people for "assuming" things about you, yet you continue to assume things about everyone else. In fact, if there was a draft, and I was drafted, I would fight... I wouldn't avoid it, break the law, and embarass my family just because I don't support the cause. I would serve my country if it needed me. You don't know shit about me or anybody else here so, again, shut up.

All I can say now is, I feel sorry for your son... too bad his father has to be such an asshole. Sometimes I don't like my parents, but I could never live with someone like you. I think I actually hate you now, Real American. I really do.

[Lucifer Sam]

Haha, I just decided to look at other posts by Real American, and ALMOST EVERY ONE was an argument or an attack. Heh, you ARE here to fight and you know it. You think you're right and everyone else is wrong.

[HippieLngstckng]

Haha, I just decided to look at other posts by Real American, and ALMOST EVERY ONE was an argument or an attack. Heh, you ARE here to fight and you know it. You think you're right and everyone else is wrong.

LOL! I'm with you, man! He deceived me for a while though.
I really wanted to believe that not all conservatives are closed minded a**holes... I guess some stereotypes speak for themselves. :rolleyes:

[Lucifer Sam]

I really wanted to believe that not all conservatives are closed minded a**holes... I guess some stereotypes speak for themselves. :rolleyes:
Heh, well, I don't think that all conservatives are closed minded a**holes, but I have to say that I think this one is! *Points to Real American* ;)

[lover/young_peace]

ummm.... I love you too guys??? :rolleyes:


LOL... no really. Let's not argue about this.

I think we should help other nations. I also believe there are better ways to do so than through war. That is my very simple opionion. I don't hate you, RA, really, I don't. You're intitled to your opionions... just please don't go and insult everybody. Now everybody's all pissed off!:rolleyes:

~~~~~peace on the boards!~~~~~

[gEo_tehaD_returns]

"Heh, well, I don't think that all conservatives are closed minded a**holes, but I have to say that I think this one is! *Points to Real American* http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif"





from dictionary.com. . .
con·ser·va·tive http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/JPG/pron.jpg (https://secure.reference.com/premium/login.html?rd=2&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fsearch%3 Fq%3Dconservative) ( P ) Pronunciation Key (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/ahd4/pronkey.html) (khttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/schwa.gifn-sûrhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/prime.gifvhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/schwa.gif-thttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/ibreve.gifv)
adj.

Favoring traditional views and values; tending to oppose change.




To me, that looks like a nice way of saying "close minded asshole".

[Lucifer Sam]

from dictionary.com. . .
con·ser·va·tive http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/JPG/pron.jpg (https://secure.reference.com/premium/login.html?rd=2&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fsearch%3 Fq%3Dconservative) ( P ) Pronunciation Key (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/ahd4/pronkey.html) (khttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/schwa.gifn-sûrhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/prime.gifvhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/schwa.gif-thttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/ibreve.gifv)
adj.

Favoring traditional views and values; tending to oppose change.



To me, that looks like a nice way of saying "close minded asshole".
Hehe, well, yes, you make a good point. Although, I think many use the word "conservative" too loosely. Many would compare being a conservative to being a prude, really.

[MexicanFlowerChild]

Selfish cowards. You are afraid to help other people. You think you are better than them. Seriously, pack up and leave America, you aren't an example of why men and women died. Oh, and while you are at it noticing my spelling errors, pull a Sherlock Holmes and see what time I made the post. After a very long days work, dealing with morons, I came home and found more. I didn't make lucifer sam type those things about me. I didn't make him type things he has no clue about. As a matter of fact, I have tried my best to see other peoples points of views. So when I get a crap load of hippies yelling at me when I ask a guy why he says the war is wrong, you can understand my urge to slap the facts right into your head. You say you are a pacafist, yet men fighting for our freedom was ok? BULL CRAP! I truly believe that if it came down to it right now, this very minute, that you were asked to defend your country and protect our freedom, you would run like a coward screaming "I'm a pacifist".Why are u judging people??? Have u taken your time on getting to know each and one of us...You just call us hippies...well not everyone in here is a "hippy"...sure come here and post what you feel but never judge no one that you dont know...so your sayin being a pacifist is being a coward...many really do beleive in being pascifist and not just make it an excuse to not go to war...geez bro just chill with the judging and everything would alright...

[Prisoner #6]

R.A.
One of the advantages of this type of communication is that it doesn't allow for the kind of hackwork seen in the media at large. The interupt/divert-interrupt/divert-then edit format that is so common in tabloid journalism (former Inside Edition anchor Bill O'Rielly's show being a prime example.) doesn't really work here.
Other forms of hackwork, such as attacking the speaker and not the content are unfortunately much more pervasive. Me, personally, I won't sink that low. I've given you the benefit of the doubt by saying that you are at least sincere in your convictions. You indulge in name calling. You're not the only one. But if this is a high school level name-calling debate let's call it that and quit the pretense of discussing serious life and death issues.
I didn't get the Donald Rumsfeld bit from Michael Moore. I researched it before the Iraq Invasion started. I do quite a bit of independent research simply because the major corporate news media- NYTimes, AP, CBS, CNN,etc. (Not even mentioning the extremists like FOX NEWS!) do such a bad job of keeping the American people informed. The NY Times, a supposed liberal paper, had Judith Miller put now discredited Iraqi Ahmed Chalabi's allegations of WMDs as the main news story of the day leading up to the war!
Now, Farenheit 911 has just come out and it was fresh in my mind but it was not my entire argument.
I will apoligize for assuming just because your conservative you are too narrow-minded to see it. I was drawing on my experience with many conservative Bush supporters I know who had judged the movie without seeing it,as they do so many things.
Now to your strange definition of cowardice.
Speaking your mind on subjects (such as the predictable results of our foriegn policy) is going to make me and others that think like me unpopular with some people. Actually exercising your right to free speech on touchy subjects (that were, I admit, hard fought for and hard won by both soldiers and citizens. All of us stand on thier shoulders, I admit it!) can carry with it extreme personal cost. The Ludlow Massacre, the Kent State Massacre, the Bonus March Massacre, the 60s civil rights marches, the abolishionists, the 30's labor unrest... all of these contributed to the rights we enjoy today also. Soldiers sacrificed with bloody consequenses, but so did ordinary citizens who believed what was going on was wrong and needed to be changed. People that are involved in the peace movement are following in thier footsteps, attempting to change what is going on right now which is very, very wrong. And some of them face exteme personal cost ( Nuns have been jailed for thier anti-war protest already in this war). If you want to call that cowardly, so be it! If you want to call "black" "white" instead or "up" "down" instead, so be it. I don't agree and I won't ultimately be influenced by high school level close mindedness and name calling!
As to your question, Do the Iraqi's deserve what we have? Freedom? Hospitals? Education?
Of course they do! Not only them, but Nicarguans, Timorese, Domincans, Chileans, Phillipinos, and Haitians do! And there's just one problem with that. Our State Dept. gave the tyrants that deprived those people of those things LOTS of our tax money! Somosa, Suhatro, Trujillo, Pinoche, Marcos and Constant were all as bad as Saddam Hussein and our Pentagon and State Dept. supported them.
And don't take my word for it! (Not that you would.) Research it on your own. If you actually do that, be prepared. You may be uncomfortable with what you find.
If you saw that atrocities, brutal murders, and other crimes against humanity were being committed or sponsored by agencies of your goverment...
would you want to know?
If your research led you to the conclusion that our brutal "foreign policy" makes a mockery of everything those troops believe in and that the U.S. purports to stand for and has, in the process, nearly destroyed the once powerful US economy...
would you do anything about it?
Once again, RA, I don't want or even care about arguing with you personally, but I do sincerely wish for you and others like you to free your minds! :rolleyes:

[Real American]

Prisoner #6 :

I do understand that our government is not perfect. I do understand that we have evil selfish bastards trying to run this country for their personal benifit. I think what needs to be said and understood right here and right now, is that I am not an "asshole" all the time. My attacks that I made were to certain people in this thread. Those people that I am refering to I quoted. I don't generalize and assume that you all share the same opinions. I do my own research, educate myself, and learn from others. I know of these brutal things you speak of. My own brother has been involved in many horible situations over seas(and I am refering to times before the war on terror). As I said before, I do not condone or support these vile actions, however, I do support what our soldiers are fighting for. I have stated either in here or on another topic that I am all for world peace but that I realize it can never happen. When talking with my father and friends, I have often showed them my true feelings. Meaning that I think in order to realy get this country back on it's feet it needs to be replaced totaly. But even with that, it's still a never ending circle. Let me explain: We try peacfully to change things but fail, we spill blood to change things and succed, we rebuild, we find bad apples, we try peacfully to change things....It is a never ending circle.

Allow me to show you the kind of attitude that I am fighting here. HippieLngstckng said this to me:And besides, do you really think the Arabs would die for you, RA? You see, I don't realy care if someone wants to die for me. All I know is I am willing to fight for freedom, I am willing to fight for another human. I am the guy that steps in the middle of a fight, no matter how big the enemy. If you or someone else doesn't think that fighting for freedom(not just our own) and possably dieing is a just cause then yes I call you a coward. One of my good friends told me recently that if the draft does come around, he would dodge it because he just started a family. I called him a coward yet I still love him. Some things are worth fighting for, others arent. Oil isn't worth fighting for, oppressed people are.

[LuciferSam]

Whoa, damn I've been missing out on some looong-ass posts, don't really come to this forum. And hey dude, I'm basically a pacifist as well. I'm just seriously not a war person, I can understand why people go to war although I won't agree with the decision to do so. I just think violent means are never an ultimately good idea, not unless it's a desperate case of life-or-death. People have told me I'd be a more convincing case in a conscientious objector hearing than most people.

Anyway, I don't really think there will be a draft anytime soon, not only because it would be hugely unpopular, but (as I've mentioned in a few other threads) because Bush already has a rather bullshit de facto alternative for a draft - his abuse of the stop-loss orders. The stop-loss orders are what his administration has been exploiting to "recycle" soldiers and "volunteers" and keep them posted in Iraq for long past what their contracts say, and there's no extra pay. It's real bullshit, and Bush will continue to use this method because it gets around the nasty idea of the draft that would piss much more people off.

[bluefairy]

how could we dodge it without gettin jail time?? I WILL NOT fight in some stupid oil war...
id rather go to jail. i wont go to any war, let alone a war for oil. i hate our government.

[bluefairy]

i havent read everything that has been posted in this forum, but what ive read, RA, you seem rather ignorant and foolish to believe everything you are told by the government. our gov't has lied to its people and are doing so right now. it seems they are succeeding, in your case. i hope that the rumors of draft are also a lie. i would hate to see innocent, peaceful americans to die for a cause they do not believe in. as i said before, i will be the first to put the hand cuffs on my wrist. i wont fight and i wont fight for something i dont believe in, especially! i only hope we have a strong enough following to be able to hold some pretty major protests or be able to persuade our gov't officials that the draft is a bad idea that only brings heartbreak and tears to our country. i hope we have the power to prevent this madness

[Real American]

i havent read everything that has been posted in this forum You just discretited everything else you said. If you are going to comment on something, then please, by all means, read everything before you assume you know something.

[Prisoner #6]

I knew there was some common ground here RA!

Yes, evil selfish bastards attempt to and succeed in running our govt.

Someone in your own family has seen firsthand how fucked up our foriegn policy is!

And you have admitted in front of family and friends (and all who visit this thread) your true feelings that in order to get this country back on its feet it needs to be totally replaced.( I don't agree, I feel that there are only certain sectors that need to be replaced. Those evil selfish bastards aforementioned.)

You even admitted that oil is not worth fighting for but oppressed people are. We can continue this discussion on our history of helping oppressed people some other time.

I don't agree with your assertion that peace fails and bloodshed works. I think the opposite is true. Bloodshed merely creates victims and martyrs on the other side (whatever the other side is). That's how bloody conflicts go on for generation after generation.

Successful peacemakers defeating tyranny include Dr. King, Ghandi, the people who brought down Slobodan Milosevic, the crowd in Moscow who faced down the tanks w/ Boris Yelstin and defeated the Soviet Union. I believe you when you describe yourself as someone who would take on a bully no matter what size. I think that if you were born Russian(Real Russian?!? Boszhe Moi!), and lived in Moscow you might have joined those in the streets and evil selfish bastards attempted to take over thier govt in August 1991. You probably would have been outraged at those who paid lip service to those ideals you and others were willing to fight and die for.

This outrage would be appropriate right here and now directed not at pacifists but at the evil selfish bastards who bribe our legislators, control our airwaves, whose main customer is the U.S. taxpayer, and cheat retirees out of thier life savings.Every single successful peacemaking example I've mentioned began with people outraged at something they knew was wrong and were willing to do something (risk jail or worse) about it. Not the actions of a coward, as a matter of fact far from it.

To all others,
RA seems willing to lay off of the invective(at least for now) and meet us on some common ground. Can we meet him halfway and keep the debate on the Draft and it's inevitable consequences? We are supposed to be pacifists here and turning the other cheek is a virtue to us is it not?

[bluefairy]

You just discretited everything else you said. If you are going to comment on something, then please, by all means, read everything before you assume you know something.i think you are a bit rude and need to learn some manners.
and im not ignorant just because i havent read all of your rude remarks. i still live in america and can still have an opinion, last i checked! so you can shove your bush loving remarks right up your ass for all i care.

~desireé~

[Real American]

Allow me to give you an example that perhaps you will understand. You can have the opinion that the civil war was faught over pink roses, however, unless you actualy study what took place, read all the info you can on it, take in every bit of info available, then your opinion is worthless. You are sharing your opinion on a few posts that you have read here(wich you admitted) and avoided the rest(perhaps it was to much reading?). Now, in order for your opinion to be valid, you must read everything that is available and then at that time make an educated guess to form your opinion.

PS, all of my posts aren't rude. If you would read them they are very inteligent and spirited posts. As are a few others on this thread.

[Lucifer Sam]

Prisoner #6 :

I do understand that our government is not perfect. I do understand that we have evil selfish bastards trying to run this country for their personal benifit. I think what needs to be said and understood right here and right now, is that I am not an "asshole" all the time. My attacks that I made were to certain people in this thread. Those people that I am refering to I quoted. I don't generalize and assume that you all share the same opinions. I do my own research, educate myself, and learn from others. I know of these brutal things you speak of. My own brother has been involved in many horible situations over seas(and I am refering to times before the war on terror). As I said before, I do not condone or support these vile actions, however, I do support what our soldiers are fighting for. I have stated either in here or on another topic that I am all for world peace but that I realize it can never happen. When talking with my father and friends, I have often showed them my true feelings. Meaning that I think in order to realy get this country back on it's feet it needs to be replaced totaly. But even with that, it's still a never ending circle. Let me explain: We try peacfully to change things but fail, we spill blood to change things and succed, we rebuild, we find bad apples, we try peacfully to change things....It is a never ending circle.

Allow me to show you the kind of attitude that I am fighting here. HippieLngstckng said this to me: You see, I don't realy care if someone wants to die for me. All I know is I am willing to fight for freedom, I am willing to fight for another human. I am the guy that steps in the middle of a fight, no matter how big the enemy. If you or someone else doesn't think that fighting for freedom(not just our own) and possably dieing is a just cause then yes I call you a coward. One of my good friends told me recently that if the draft does come around, he would dodge it because he just started a family. I called him a coward yet I still love him. Some things are worth fighting for, others arent. Oil isn't worth fighting for, oppressed people are.
Hey, Real American, you seem to maybe, just maybe, be making sense! ;) Finally you admit that our government isn't some godly thing that you must follow blindly. Glad to hear it...

Now, what do you say... we talk about the POSSIBLE DRAFT?

Hmm... I really don't think it will happen unless things get VERY bad over there. It is all described right here:

Anyway, I don't really think there will be a draft anytime soon, not only because it would be hugely unpopular, but (as I've mentioned in a few other threads) because Bush already has a rather bullshit de facto alternative for a draft - his abuse of the stop-loss orders. The stop-loss orders are what his administration has been exploiting to "recycle" soldiers and "volunteers" and keep them posted in Iraq for long past what their contracts say, and there's no extra pay. It's real bullshit, and Bush will continue to use this method because it gets around the nasty idea of the draft that would piss much more people off.
He basically said all I was going to say :D. I've heard about the "recycling" soldiers policy and it sounds like bullshit to me. Some soldiers are getting pretty pissed off because, obviously, they want to be home with their families, not going over practice routines everyday. Also, a draft would be VERY unpopular, especially if it included women. I could definitely see some fathers getting really pissed off when they find out that their "little girls" died in Iraq when they didn't even want to go there in the first place.

[Prisoner #6]

Lucifer Sam,

Have you read these bills? S 89 & HR 163 I believe. There is nothing in them that would exempt women, or even pregnant women from military service.

This should be an election year issue.

There is a reason that they won't be called on for a vote until after the election passes. It is known that the public doesn't want to be treated like that and it stands no chance of passage in an election year.

If they were called for a vote now, I believe it would be defeated.

So let's ALL (even RA), go to http://www.house.gov (http://www.house.gov) and http://www.senate.gov (http://www.senate.gov) , look up and read S 89 & HR 163 and then call our representatives and Senators and let them know what we think of a proposal that wouldn't exempt pregnant women from a military draft.

Put pressure to bring these to vote in this election year!

[bluefairy]

I agree there is nothing in the whole thing that leaves out pregnant women or anything and nearly noone believes in this war anymore i just think its dumb

[Jaque Imo]

If bush gets re-elected, i hope to God he DOES it...Because if he does, there will be the biggest political backlash since the 60's waiting on the front lawn...BRING IT ON.

[MikeE]

Regarding the draft, while there may be different exemptions it is still the case that "homosexuality is incompatible with military service." A good friend and a polaroid camera should keep you out of the Army, if you want out.

[Real American]

You are forgetting the don't ask don't tell policy, they don't care if you are homosexual anymore. They won't ask you, and you can try to tell them, but they wont listen.

[HippieLngstckng]

Allow me to give you an example that perhaps you will understand. You can have the opinion that the civil war was faught over pink roses, however, unless you actualy study what took place, read all the info you can on it, take in every bit of info available, then your opinion is worthless. You are sharing your opinion on a few posts that you have read here(wich you admitted) and avoided the rest(perhaps it was to much reading?). Now, in order for your opinion to be valid, you must read everything that is available and then at that time make an educated guess to form your opinion.

PS, all of my posts aren't rude. If you would read them they are very inteligent and spirited posts.
How nice! Calling someone's opinion worthless...

Actually, the Civil War wasn't just about the slaves; the Union didn't want the South to succeed from the nation, which is why they fought. NOT because freeing the slaves was so important. This is a little known detail, but you know what? It doesn't much matter WHY the war was fought, it is the fact that the war WAS fought. And a lot of people, as I have said before, don't support war, period, end of statement. Am I saying that *I* think the Union should not have fought to free the slaves? No. This was on our own soil, hence the North had every right to fight.

By the way, if you want to go and fight for some people who would set you on fire and roast you in your bed while you are sleeping, you can be my guest. But don't send me. Chances are they would roast my Jewish ass before my feet even touched their soil. I am not the one who is prejudiced either. I don't toast little Arab kids with bombs while they're on their way to school.

By the way, LOL regarding your PS. While some of your posts have been witty and interesting, the fact that you are so insulting in more than half of your posts detracts from your obvious intelligence, which is why I urged you way-back-when to consider revising the way you address people. No one is going to recognize anything relevant you say if you're calling them stupid in the same sentance. If you truly wish to make people think, then be kind in your posts and answers to people... as the saying goes, you catch more flies with honey... and so on and so forth ;)

[MikeE]

About homosexuality, they do care. Recently a homosexual combat troop was discharged for homosexuality. If a photo is dropped on the desk at the induction center, they probably will pay attention.

[Real American]

MikeE, please share where you learned of this. Perhaps a link? Thanks.

[HippieLngstckng]

MikeE, please share where you learned of this. Perhaps a link? Thanks.

If it doesn't matter, could you please explain why their policy towards homosexuality is "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"? I'm not trying to be a pain in the ass, but if they didn't care, why would it matter whether or not you are out of the closet?

P.S. - If anyone is too concerned about the draft, you could always pose as a fairy, and let someone take some pictures.... LOL! :p (No offense to any gays, I have plenty of friends who are gay... One who taught me to remember what apartment he lives in by telling me it is "Apartment F - for 'you-know-what'")

[Real American]

Because they don't want to hear about your sexual perversion. Not to long ago, homosexuality was viewed as something bad. Those ideas about what was right and wrong were placed into the foundation of our government. The reason they emplimented the "don't ask don't tell" policy was because they don't want to know about it. It was also a way of giving those homosexuals that wanted to serve a way to serve without being kicked out.

[MikeE]

I don't recall where I heard about the discharge of the combat trooper. Probably on either Air America Radio or Pacifica Radio.
The military policy about gays is well known, but I don't think you wanted confermation about that.
The idea of using the policy about gays to avoid the draft is mine. I think that it is ironic. Both from the point of view that the military is excluding people and the gay rights movements responce to a draft.

[SageDreamer]

The government is making noise about no draft, but I'm afraid I see a draft as inevitable. National Guard members are seeing their service involuntarily extended, and I don't see this government getting us out of the Middle East any time soon.

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to see future wars in Iran and Syria. Building an empire in the Middle East won't come without more troops, and that means a draft.

There's an election coming in November, and this is the sort of issue that could cause young voters to mobilize around Kerry. As a result, the Republicans desperately don't want to admit a draft is coming.

[Real American]

Putting Kerry in office won't end the war on terrorism. Are you expecting him to pull all troops out as soon as he is in office? Perhaps you think all your problems will go away if Bush doesn't stay. Seriously folks, this issue is bigger than one man. You all know the president doesn't have the power to declare war on his own right? That it takes approval from congress? Yet amazingly, I don't see or hear all of you protesting our congress members. I'm sorry, but you guys are sad.

[smellyhairyhippie]

a draft would be great then we could rebel against it!:P seriously it would show the peopl who are all like yeah nuke iraq wait its my kid lemee think about this...

[Lucifer Sam]

I'm sorry, but you guys are sad.
Man... there you go again, Real American. You always have to insult someone. Also, Kerry has said that he would remove *some* troops from Iraq as soon as possible if he is elected (But we all know that politicians lie, so..)

[MikeE]

Kerrry's election will not end the war on terrorism. This is true. Neither will it end the occupation of Iraq. Unlike Bush, Kerry realizes that the US is incapable of succesfully fighting the war on terrorism by itself. Similarly, the rebuilding of Iraq requires that it appear (no matter what the reality is) different from US colonialism. Kerry will return the US to the notion that we must be a member of the international community of nations.

Bush's attitude that the US must not compromise (I'm trying to be generous to the shrub) has led us into overextending our troops and alianating potential helpers in our efforts agaist terrorists. With alies, not only will there be more troops in the fight, but the need for military will decrease. Thus, the reason for the US to use slave armies (a.k.a the draft) will disapear.

[HippieLngstckng]

Putting Kerry in office won't end the war on terrorism. Are you expecting him to pull all troops out as soon as he is in office? Perhaps you think all your problems will go away if Bush doesn't stay. Seriously folks, this issue is bigger than one man. You all know the president doesn't have the power to declare war on his own right? That it takes approval from congress? Yet amazingly, I don't see or hear all of you protesting our congress members. I'm sorry, but you guys are sad.
No, putting Kerry in office won't end terrorism, nor will it necessarily stop the draft from happenning. He's another money minded politician like all the rest, who says what he thinks will get him in office. That's his problem, he's trying say what he can to please everyone, get more votes, but in the process, he looks like a wishy washy butt wipe who doesn't know what the hell he stands for.

And actually, I said in another thread (I was defending Bush, for crying out loud, even though he's not fit to tie his own shoes) "The 'Truth' About the War in Iraq" that people should distribute the blame equally among the branches of gov't, as our implemented series of checks and balances prevents the excutive branch from having supreme power over the congressional and judicial systems. DISTRIBUTE THE BLAME EQUALLY. This could never have taken place on Bush's whims alone.

And yes, RA, I am sad, the saddest person alive... and very sorry that you can't speak without insulting people on this board.

[jimi morrison]

if this draft hapens.... ok when the draft starts it will be one of the worst in history because they will have to take men and wonem between the ages of 18-35, they will take women because un like the past drafts these days women have the same rights as men at home and on the battlefield, back in the civil war, ww1, ww2, and veitnam women werent alowed in combat, but today they are so women will be drafted to.

[cerridwen]

drafts are a scary thought...

[gate68]

I closed my window'no more draft,150

[MichaelByrd1967]

Hey, why are we banning people because of their opinions?

[Loveminx]

wait... who is this Satan we are fighting?

im sorry i may have to stop talking, im not understanding this anymore.

plus i dont think we should bring religion into this war. I'm sure you have good intentions, and you are free to believe whatever, but many people (both American and Iraqi) think they have to kill eachother because it is the will of god. If I did believe in God, Im sure he wouldn't wish death. Im not sure if im making my point, but both parties need to leave religion completely out of it. Otherwise, things get even more out of hand.

Ahh, i doubt i make sense. I just would not want war. I am a simple thinker. I dont want murdering.

i agree with you. i dont think everyone should just say jesus said this and that and think thats a good enough arguement. we dont all believe in the same(if any) religion and so it doesnt make sense to me that ppl keep referring to it.

*im sorry if i seem like im against religion, im not. i think its great to believe in something but i just dont think we can all agree on one religion's view.

life is precious, violence is not the answer. :(

[turtlefriend]

I don't think anyone can "say" for sure weather there's gonna be a draft or not. I do not believe it's outside the realm of possibility, but no one can say that it definately will happen.

[kjhippielove88]

just stay tuned for March 31st. all will be revealed

[dj_reegz]

Well if it happens I'll be down at the border working to get as many of you across as possible. no person should be forced to kill another.

[HippieFlowerGirl67]

I'm practically old enough to be drafted but thank God you have to finish high school before you can go. And I'm a girl so I don't think it's a girls job to do stuff like that. Not my idea of a trip man....

[Gypzy]

wait... who is this Satan we are fighting?

im sorry i may have to stop talking, im not understanding this anymore.

plus i dont think we should bring religion into this war. I'm sure you have good intentions, and you are free to believe whatever, but many people (both American and Iraqi) think they have to kill eachother because it is the will of god. If I did believe in God, Im sure he wouldn't wish death. Im not sure if im making my point, but both parties need to leave religion completely out of it. Otherwise, things get even more out of hand.

Ahh, i doubt i make sense. I just would not want war. I am a simple thinker. I dont want murdering.
That is exactly the kind of shit we need to hear! Clear and simple baby, MURDER JUST ISN'T RIGHT! In any fucking context!

[Micha]

This is so sad.
What makes our government think that they can make people do things that they don't want to do.
In some aspects it's okay..but dying? That's a little fucking overboard..
:(

[Piney]

There will not be a draft.


Congressman Charles Rangle sponsored draft legislation that was soundly defeated in The US House of representatives in 2004.

The armed forces only wants volunteers anyway.

[TresBizzare420]

I don't believe that there will be a draft under Bush's presidency, or anytime soon. A draft would hurt the Republican party more then it would help it. With a draft would come a lot a lot of opposition. If they started arresting people for dodging the draft prison overcrowding would become a major issue. The party knows that the re-installment of the draft would loose them control power of the government. Look at how many hits this one thread has received so far. If the thought of the draft receives so many comments, an actual draft would have everyone with an opinion on hand.