how do you create trubreeds from hybrids ?

[tiedye420]

MEAN or GECK or anybreeder knowledgeables!!
If i take the f2 version of a multiple hybrid
And i seperate the phenotypes, selectivly breeding each pheno within itself.
Can i create a trubreeding strain this way?
Or rather 7 trubreeding strains, as there are 7 phenotypes.{mexican indica, afghani 1. afghani 2, nepalese hashplant, chocolate columbian, hawaiian, and another pheno that might be ruderalis.REAL small- Not much smell- but a one bud pheno}
Im doing this in the f2 version, Im open pollenating the f3 versions- all 7 of them seperately.
The choice male from each pheno will have a seperate bottle of pollen from it.
the males from each pheno will be blended into a bottle labled accordingly.
How many generations do I have to go with this to have truebreeds?
Is it f5?

[meangreen]

Good luck,that could take ya years to accomplish if you ever could.Too many strains to even try and create a stable breed!

[meangreen]

Why,is what I ask?You have had hermie probs with some of those,it seems pointless to me,but to each there own!

[tiedye420]

bah humbug
they are seperated already into phenos,
how many generations from f3 to truebreed are needed?
I have quite a few years left on the planet been at one side of this cross 9 years already.
But im not talking about the hybrids man
Im talking about trubreeding the various phenos of an f2, seperately.
what are the drawbacks, other than an obvious small genepool thing.

[tiedye420]

the columbian pheno is suspect for causing hermie traits, i figure to weed it out and rebuild a few different versions without the chocolate.
I may have outcrossed the hermie traits as well, with the humbolt cross/selective breeding to f2 from non hermie parents.
Furthurmore
I learned to inbreed hermie traits- now i need to learn to outbreed them- hopefully without recessing the genes- but removing, Or changing it.

[WayfaringStranger]

i would doubt it be possible. if it were, i doubt it would be possible to know if youve succeeded. if there were only 2 or 3 genes present in the whole genome, you might have a shot at knowing if you were succesfull, it just sounds like a headache that no amount of THC will subside.

[tiedye420]

the only strain low in thc would be the ruderalis- which is what causes the hummer to autoflower im sure.

This is really the only thing that interests me anymore, breeding.
ya gotta grow to get the seeds man.

[tiedye420]

Hi wayfaring how's it going?
do you understand me at all?
i mean seven stable breed
not a mixed up hybrid
i know how to stabalize it.
Im talking about seperating the phenos of all seven strains
A:F2 selectively breeding within each pheno ,from the varieties seperatly creating seven f3 strains.
B:taking seven different strains, and open pollenating 50 or 100 seeds from each phenotype created in the f2 version.Seperately.
F4 is trubreed?
or do I gotta open pollenate twice?
and take it to f5.???????????????????????????????????
TELL ME NOW OR ILL PUSH THE RED BUTTON AND KILL US ALL.
how many generations do i take it from f2 to truebreed?
FORGET HOW LONG OR HOW HARD_ MOOT POINT- I DO NOT CARE
open pollenation and selective breeding was how land race was created-n you cannot destroy landrace with your hybrids, I will remove them all from every genepool in the world if i get my way- only landrace named after village and or country.

You must be asssimilated you must be assimilated you must be assimilated.
OH MY GOSH i think i spent a little too much time researching orgNICS.
ADVANCE NUTES KICKS ASS.
bUT YOU GOTTA SPEND AROUND $350 TO ADHERE TO THE FORMULA MIXING CHART, with the vodoo juice and piranha and all they reccomend for cannabis .

[tiedye420]

but robert clarke says:

Occasionally hybrid offspring will prove inferior to both parents, but the first generation may still contain recessive genes for a favorable characteristic seen in a parent if the parent was homozygous for that trait. First generation (F1) hybrids are therefore inbred to allow recessive genes to recombine and express the desired parental trait. Many breeders stop with the first cross and never realize the genetic potential of their strain. They fail to produce an F2 generation by crossing or self-pollinating F1 offspring. Since most domestic Cannabis strains are F1 hybrids for many characteristics, great diversity and recessive recombination can result from inbreeding domestic hybrid strains. In this way the breeding of the F1 hybrids has already been accomplished, and a year is saved by going directly to F2 hybrids. These F2 hybrids are more likely to express recessive parental traits. From the F2 hybrid generation selections can be made for parents which are used to start new true-breeding strains. Indeed, F2 hybrids might appear with more extreme characteristics than either of the P~ parents. (For example, P1 high-THC X P1 low-THC yields F1 hybrids of intermediate THC content. Selfing the F1 yields F2 hybrids, of both P1 [high and low THC] phenotypes, inter mediate F1 phenotypes, and extra-high THC as well as extra-low THC phenotypes.)

Also, as a result of gene recombination, F1 hybrids are not true-breeding and must be reproduced from the original parental strains. When breeders create hybrids they try to produce enough seeds to last for several successive years of cultivation, After initial field tests, undesirable hybrid seeds are destroyed and desirable hybrid seeds stored for later use. If hybrids are to be reproduced, a clone is saved from each parental plant to preserve original parental genes.

Back-crossing is another technique used to produce offspring with reinforced parental characteristics. In this case, a cross is made between one of the F~ or subsequent offspring and either of the parents expressing the desired trait. Once again this provides a chance for recombination and possible expression of the selected parental trait. Back-crossing is a valuable way of producing new strains, but it is often difficult because Cannabis is an annual, so special care is taken to save parental stock for back-crossing the following year. Indoor lighting or greenhouses can be used to protect breeding stock from winter weather. In tropical areas plants may live outside all year. In addition to saving particular parents, a successful breeder always saves many seeds from the original P1 group that produced the valuable characteristic so that other P1 plants also exhibiting the characteristic can be grown and selected for back-crossing at a later time.

[tiedye420]

I crossed two strains.
There are it seems, six phenos to the f2 generation.
the intermediate phenos resemble mexican indica, and ruderalis.
the main phenos resemble the p1&2 of both strains.
I can create truebreeds from these phenos.
But some will be undesireable (small hashplant with low potency-ect.}
selective breeding from this f2 gen will be interesting.
Robert still did not point out how many generations after f2 is needed to create trubreed.
My only question is and was from the beginning is, how many generations are needed from f2 to true.
Im off to overgrow.

[geckopelli]

Creating a stable strain will require a lot of back breeding.

Breed every third generation with it's granparent generation. Inbreed the other two.

If your lucky, you'll see a move toward uniformity in the 10th generation.

or that's the theory, anyway!

I had an 8th generation that seemed to have firmly divided into only two genotypes.

[tiedye420]

the method im using is filial selection.
only the P2 from the desired cross is available still.
unles i plant my clavo of p1&p2, and f1 seeds, which are due to be regenerated this year anyways.
but, there was a random hermie-p1 she was used to make fem. seeds.in 1998-99,there was male pollen from the columbianxhashplant{ a selected f2} was used also.Those were the only breederstock used at the time.

I have decided the only way to backcross to p1 or p2 is to use a male from p2
(p1 is femm. only}
im cloning all the females, until they have budded and fruit has been analized.
then backrossing will be posible to the stinkiest male p2 hashplant i can find
but this is what is nessesary to trubreed my hybrid.......
Im seeing some real nice phenos- all heavy branchers indoor.....anyspectrum.
im seperating the 4 main phenos, inbreeding the phenos to themselves.....
I may do selective breeding within the different phenos, according to smell, or taste, or some other desired trait.

there are some growfaqs on overgrow, that definetly pertain to this....
http://www.overgrow.com/growfaq/t150

i think i need to cube them for the fastest results, from what im gathering here and there..

thanks geck

[tiedye420]

CAN SOMEONE DESIPHER THIS
seems like selection, and cubing will get me true enough.
if I can get 71.875% to taste and smell like hawaiian punch {stinky when cured}I'll be a happy camper. im on it man.
from OG FAQS
BackCrossing and Cubing

Backcrossing is where you breed an individual (your special clone) with it's progeny. Sick in our world, but plants seem to like it

1) Your first backcross is just a backcross.

2) Your second backcross where you take the progeny from the first backcross and cross back to the SAME parent (grandparent now) is often called SQUARING by plant breeders.

3) Your third backcross where you take the progency (squared) from the second backcross and cross back to the SAME parent (great grandparent now) is often called CUBING by plant breeders. You can continue the backcrossing but we just call this backcrossing. Cubing is in reference to the number three, as in 3 backcrosses

Cubing works on the basis of mathamatical probabilities with respect to gene frequencies. The more males you use with each cross, the better the chance that your reality matches the theory. In theory, with the first backcross, 75% of your genepool will match the genepool of the P1 parent being cubed. Squaring increases this to 87.5% and cubing increases it to 93.75%. You can arrive at these numbers by taking the average between the two parents making up the cross. For instance, you start by crossing the P1 mom (100%) with and unrelated male (0%) getting 100% + 0% divided by 2 = 50%. Therefore, the offspring of this first cross are loosly thought of as being 50% like the mom. Take these and do your first backcross and you get 100% (mom) + 50% divided by 2 = 75%. And this is where we get the 75% for the first backcross. Same thing applies as you do more backcrosses. As you will see later, you can apply this same probability math to specific genes or traits, and this can have a dramatic effect on your methodology and selection methods.

Your selection of the right males for each backcross are the crucial points for success with this technique. In each case, you could select males that contain the genes you want, or you could inadvertedly pick those individuals that carry the unwanted recessive genes. Or more likely, you could just pick individuals that are heterozygous for both genes like the P1 mom being backcrossed. The easiest way to deal with this is to start by only looking at one gene and one trait, like lets assume that flavour is determined by a single gene (in reality it's probably not). And do some punnet squares to show gene frequencies through 3 generations of backcrossing. Now lets assume that we found a special pineapple flavoured individual in our pine flavoured population that we wanted to keep. The gene causing the pineapple flavour could be dominant or recessive and the selection abilities and cubing outcome will be different in both cases.

a) pineapple flavour is dominant.

P = pineapple flavour and p = pine flavour

Therefore since each individual will have two flavour genes paired up, the possible genotypes are PP, Pp, and pp. Since P is dominant, PP and Pp will express pineapple flavour while pp will exhibit pine flavour, these are their phenotypes. Now since the pineapple is a new flavour, chances are that the special individual will be heterozygous, or more specifically, Pp. Therefore, the only possible parent combination is Pp X pp with the Pp being the parent to be cubed.

[WayfaringStranger]

tiedie, you seem like the expert to me, so i'll let you do the leg work, and can i just get seeds from you?

[tiedye420]

I used two IBL to start this current work.
I am using the f2 version now.
If i selective breed the desired pheno[the one resembling P1} from the f2
backcross to P1 to create F3.
F3 will have a higher % of the desired pheno.
THEN I backcross F3 to P1 TO MAKE IT A TRUBREED.
I just need to go to F4- as for seperating the phenos- impossible, unless i backcross, or cross to a IBL SIMILAR IN CHARACHTERISTICS.
f4 WAS THE ANSWER.


here are growfaqs from O.G.
MAKING IT SIMPLE.
An IBL (inbred line) is a genetically homogeneous strain that grows uniformly from seed.

A hybrid is a strain made up of two genetically unlike parents, IBL or hybrid.

When you cross two different IBL strains for the FIRST time, it is called the F1 generation. When you cross two of the same F1 hybrid (inbreed), it is called the F2 generation.

The process of selective inbreeding must continue at least until the F4 to stabilize the recurrently selected traits. When you cross two specimens of an IBL variety, you get more of the same, because an IBL is homozygous, or true breeding for particular traits.

[meangreen]

Still like to know why you are going to all this trouble when there are hundreds of already proven stable breeds available from many seed banks that dont require a detailed breeding process,in other words what is your goal that cannot be found at a seed bank with no effort,especially with the known hermaphroditism that has been present in your garden as long as I have known ya!Seems alot more reasonable to get some known stables and make hybrids from them!

[tiedye420]

HEre is the deal, where the hermies came from.
I am breeding my best work. My original crosses the seeds are going to be f2 or s2 either feminised or not.
But the males will not carry the hermie traits. I had I made femminised seed in 1998-99. The original hashplant was humbolt growerunion seedstock. Brought to backcross to the original- to renew the genetic composition of humbolt.
I crosed it with the chocolate columbian in 1999. I also used pollen from a very choice male f1. THose seeds I grew a few of in 2000, some hermied out. I grew them out away from the others, to keep the hermie genes away from the other plants i had going then. THe hermie went up in flame in the wildfires- the others got greymold in the sierra foothills. I grew the third gen out in this trailer- learning how to grow indoors. third gen from the hermies that is. I Still have feminised and f2 versions of this work up the hill in storage- THE ORIGINL ONES FROM 1999!!!!!

but it gets deeper the plants i have growing now are a f2 backcross to the hasplant which now becomes P1 and p2- cousins- a backcrosss within the saame genotype- locking in the extremely branchy trait i have been developing -----stinky breeds true for branching because of the law of recombination-
So when i crossed the chocolate lumbo to humbolt it WAS a backcrosss...Outcroissing the hermie traits as far as i know- but if I use a male from my first seeds my first gen will have males- males with no s-1 or selved genes in them.
Those will also be used to backcross ,squaring and cubing non- hermie traits.

LIKE I SAID BEFORE- learn to breed in, learn to breed out, pretty soon it will be just like breathing..
I have been reading clarke for over 20 years now- and i actually beginning to get a slight grasp on botany because of robert.

But yeaah last year I Grew test seed from hermies L.O.L. NOw that I know a little about the indoor trip- Im bustin out my old ones- time to regenerate those babys anyhow.THEY were made in 1999.
I have spent months trying to figure out what i did- so i can figure out what to do, but soetimes i think to much and just need to rely on instinct{backcrosssing to the humbolt - locked in the branching due to recombination- and may have outcrosed the hermie traits as well.. I'll find out soon enough...
Only BOG seeds has plants that branch like mine bro, only BOG.

[meangreen]

I would sure like to see some pics of these when and if they come about,I wish ya the best!

[meangreen]

Here are some heavy yielding ladies!

http://www.hipgallery.com/photopost2/data/529/297Dscf0355.jpg

[tiedye420]

I first have to stabalize certain traits, then backcross to the humbolt, im trying to come up with a fruit punch flavor, throughout the strain- stinky-the F1 {backcross within genotype} had it ,and Im hoping for 75% with it this run. Might be a reccessive trait and only 20% or something though.time will tell.

BUT when I Start making seeds by the thousands,you'll know im getting ready to release some soon.. L.O.L.


tiedie, you seem like the expert to me, so i'll let you do the leg work, and can i just get seeds from you?

[tiedye420]

Herewegoagain,L.O.L.

No really,
I coulda swore it was someone fro the old site who reccomended i use a backwards hermi in my breeding program. L.O.L..
but nevermind all that- I only planted third gen seeds, which were from seperated and selved (or crossed by wind & Bees)hermies, which is why i got the backwards hermie to begin with....

and it must have been me who misunderstood, maybe if someone would have said a "selved backward hermie" but dont use the hermie pollen on a female or your through.becauser that must be the case. It has to be a selved backwards hermie that produces male/70% Female seeds.
{ IMPORTANT CORRECTION: after furthur ponderings, it was obvious what mistake i made- I had three plants from past developments at the time- but from plants that hermied out away from the rest .
I got the backwards hermie from those seeds, and the columbian pheno also . i crossed the two together ,a random hermie and a backwards one
SO NOW I know which seeds will have this trait- just two lines out of many developments ,the columbian and the christmas tree from this gen. has hermie traits locked in. THe crosses with normal females I did should still enable me to test the theory of using a backwards hermie}
TWAS not mis-information ,but misuse of information thAT GOT ME! glad we talked about it- I might not have got it figured out right otherwise.

But it was interesting experimentation,I Have no regrets, I just have a hard time dealing with hermie outbreaks. Im over it and found two ways around it. now that my growroom is right! I'LL BUST {WIsh the caps would quit sticking- she spilled coffe on this $%^& IT}
out the real seeds, which I CAN use the males from to breed with................
and it seemms i may have outcrossed, or close to outcrossed the trait.
hard to tell until this grow is over..
but yeah most of my new seeds will have to be tested and two pheno's will have to be destroyed >the colubian and christmas tree- but I planned to use the first gen up and regenerate this year anyways.
Right now im working on stinky's offspring- which i shotgun bred a male stinky to the whole lot- afghani=thai kush ect.
interesting varieties there im sure- it gives me something to do.for the next few years. L.O.L. if this wave doesnt hermie.L>O.l. but, None of my stinkies did.
it has taken months to figure out what i did the last 10 years or so- but now that I got it straight, i'll go forward with the past. Im actually beginning to read clarke- and actually understand what he is saying- not just absorbing it on another level anymore bro.
be happy..
dont worry
the hermie trait will be destroyed.
Without losing a decade of work my friend.
tiedye

[tiedye420]

Im also realizing the thai cross may or may not work- it is the only cross outside the genotype. the kush and afghani have relations in their background with my strain.......
cousins within the same genotype, so to speak.
so the law of recombination will not work so heavily in my favor on that cross.

[tiedye420]

Today i weeded
out 7 undesireable plants from 47
24 femalesss
23 malesss
7 males destroyed
I figure that to be about 8% of the population
im looking for the lumbo and runt phenos, i'll have to watch the christmas tree pheno close- and the lumbo- i deem them likeliest to hermie...
i may have to start over but i doubt it very seriously.

[meangreen]

If your dealing with those thai's,look out as I had both highland and lowland from that stock and both hermed(synonomous trait with thai)!Ya may wanna eleviate them if so!The lowland had the typical pinesol taste that most people except ole heads like our selves have ever experienced as well as the elongated loose stringy buds that were all to familar with the legendary thai sticks pevelant in th late 70's and early eightys!Great creeper sedative high tho!

[tiedye420]

YEAH IM SMOKIN up
the last half oz or so of the thai now. All the old strains got discontinued except the mutant. MY thai however did not hermie, and was crossed with stinky ,but who knows if i'll ever bother with those seeds. too long of a bud time, and too stringy.
the mutant blows the thai away anyways.
im selecting stinky for fast budding phenos, the thai would make it worse.
Besides,Im looking for more of an heirloom thai- like gold or chocolate thai.

[tiedye420]

O.K> i been buried in robert clarke's marijuana botany for days it seems. I have a simple answer to this project.
If i find a special pheno- say one that smell & tastes like pineapple, while the rest smell & tatste different. I need to find a male, {tricky part} that exhibits the same smell as my special one. Most of this can be done by rubbing the stems. I find the leaf stems have a strong smell on older leaves.
stinky had a distinct smell and flavor, smelled like a dead dog hashy chocolate bar in flower. STINKY. but the cured product was like a nice cool hawaiian punch flavor .
I have a male picked out, and a female or two with the same smell to them.
these I will have to breed together- clone the girls, backcross the offspring 3 times to cube. It is then a truebreeding strain. But each backcross will have to be from the male offspring, to the female i have chosen now for cloning this part of my current work.

but there are a lot of interesting phenos in this f2 variety- they will get open pollenated together , but with a bottle mixture. Seperate clones will be seperately pollenated. Im collecting pollen in veg mode, and scrubbing out the room and vents when the pollen has been collected.I only need to dust each lower branch of each plant with a little bit of the mixed pollen collected.these can then be to bertha their great grandma, to truebreed that version.
Im going to number them 1-20 in the order they bud out at.both male and female. or maybe just number the first ten to bud out radically.The fastest ones.
it is a lot of work you are right there, but im sure it will pay off in the end. Hard work always does.

[tiedye420]

What I really want to know is,
how does my new signature look?????

[tiedye420]

wait a minute. I only had three plants from my developments of the past ,grow last year.
they were all 3 from random hermies.
the backwards hermie was one of them.
I bred it to the other hermie- and that is where I $%#@ up. that is why the columbian indica phenos went hermie- they were from a hermie and a backwards hermie cross.
So i can go back to last years seeds, and eliminate all the christmas tree and columbian hashplants. but ANY OF THE HYBRIDS from the bagseed will not have this hermie trait locked in. the hermie outbreak was from the columbian seeds and mother clone. the mother hermied and so did the offspring.
because i pollenated a backwards hermie to a random one. Therby locking in the trait in those two works.

I actually learned something here,and now i know not to use any 2 gen randoms, a random is only useful to make one generation of seeds, all female seeds. the second generation will cause trouble everywhere it goes.

Good thing i got backups from 1999 eh! the ones that are first gen. femminised and 3 gen columbianxhashplant. the never hermied version that is.
might get another screamin male!
L.O.L.

IM NOT AS THINK AS YOU STONED I AM!!
TIEDYE

[tiedye420]

hey im gonna pull my old developments out next cycle, mqaybe i'll get another backwards hermie! this time i'll outcross it though. I will not use it on the random's decendants like before! l.o.l.
but also these developments can cure a couple months while i renew the old generations. and i can skip from grandparents to decendants each cycle, backcrossing all the way! keeping special clones on veg along the way!

[tiedye420]

Disaster struck
what appears to be powdery mildew has infected three plants. the males were removed-most breeding will be aborted ..two selected males were kept for now, but The open pollenation is canceled . the infected plants were removed and sprayed with soapy water- showing hundreds of tiny grey dots underneath the leaves where affected.
tomorrow a sunlight inspection will reveal more im sure.
the humidifier will be turned off at night now- and im cranking the cold air back up at night too.
20 females and 2 males made it through this first round. Hope thats all.
tiedye