The Purpose of the Human Life

[dreamergirl]

The Purpose of the Human Life



Tonight, the message of this program is a very simple one, a very humble one. The source of all of the problems of our world can be traced back to one problem- the bodily identification of ourselves.



Religion teaches us that we are not these bodies, but are eternal souls. The soul is in every single material body, whether it be a cow's body, a dog's body, an ant's body, or a human's body. The only difference is the development of consciousness in the species of the body. Therefore, what are these conceptions we apply to ourselves? We are all humans underneath the clothes we wear.

People generally think "I am American", or "I am European", or "I am Asian", etc. What are these labels, besides their physical location? People think "I am Christian", "I am Muslim", "I am Hindu", but what are these labels, besides their religious background? Or people are thinking "I am white", or "I am black", or "I am brown". What are these labels, besides the mere color of their skin?

We are all human beings. But because so many people are attached to the bodily conception of life, they are fighting over their illusions. To take it a step farther, every living being in this universe has a soul within their material body. Once we understand this, we are situated on the transcendental platform, not the material one. And one who perceives as such, actually sees.

Therefore, let us take it a step farther, and try to grasp the universal message of all religions. At base, religion teaches us that we are all eternal souls, eternal servants of God, and it is our duty to return to God at the end of this life, so that we can go back to the spiritual realm, the Kingdom of Heaven, and no longer have to rot in this material world. That is why the human body is so important, to not be wasted.

There is no other species on earth that is capable of realizing God, and thus we should not spend our times engaged in lower activities, like animals. The symptom of the modern man, is that he lives only for pleasure, only to satisfy his senses. Even animals have this much sense, but do you see your dog thinking about God? Therefore, this human life is very valuable, and it is nothing but a waste for us if we do not spend it in the effort of trying to surrender to God, trying to re-awaken our dormant God consciousness.

Many youths today are becoming disillusioned by the narrowness of fundamentalism, and are turning away from God. Because of the foolishness of the elders who are blind, the youth of today are turning away from God and turning to atheism, hedonism. Most youths are intelligent enough to see that the ideal of fundamentalism, "Our way is the only way, all others are going to hell", is nothing but dogma, and because of dogma, creates blind followers.

Too often this atheistic ideal leads one to the personal conception of God, causing them to think "I am God". This is insanity, to believe yourself to be God. To think that, is to insult God, saying that God has to take the form of a human, and has to suffer in the material world, and has to meditate to realize he is God again. If that is true, then God is neither all knowing nor perfect. A person who thinks "I am God" is a madman, and is fool number one. If they are God, why can't they manifest the infinite universal form of God? It is because they are not God, but a mere mortal under the influence of maya, the energy of illusion.

And too often, we see people with great faith in God, whether they be of the Christian faith, the Islam faith, or the Hindu faith, but far too often they do not have the intelligence to explain their great faith, and thus they are made to be fools in the eyes of the world. They believe in God, but cannot explain why. It is much to their benefit that they learn the science of God, so that they can logically explain their beliefs. Faith without intelligence is dogma, and it creates fundamentalism, and fanatical followers.

To understand God, you not only need sincerity and humility, but intelligence as well. There are too many people with sincere faith, but no intelligence, and thus their faith is useless. They claim to believe in God, but they cannot answer people's questions when tested. Thus, what good is their blind faith? They have no intelligence with which to explain their beliefs. They simply hold the childish notion of "My religion is the only right one, and all others are wrong". Well, if every single person in the world thinks that, then naturally, conflicts are going to arise. There is no difference between the Christian, the Muslim, the Jew, the Hindu. They are all children of God.

The real purpose of religion is to teach us our constitutional position in the universe. And once we are situated in this transcendental knowledge, we no longer suffer from the material desires that keep us enslaved in this world. As I mentioned above, the human form of life is so valuable, that we should not waste it like animals. We should refrain from the consumption of meat, and should try to refrain from intoxicants as much as possible, as well as controlling our sexual lust, which is the binding force of this universe. Simply because we want to have a few moments of sense gratification, the next thing we know, we have a child, and now we have to work like asses just to support the family we built. The proper purpose of marriage is to begot children who will become God conscious, to provide support for each other, to help one another cultivate transcendental knowledge. This should be the goal for the union of man and woman in marriage.

Right now, people are killing each other in Iraq because they are caught up in their own illusions, thinking oneself to be 'American' and others to be 'Iraqis'. Human beings are killing each other over false concepts of nationality. I wish I could ask each and every one of them, how much longer is this madness going to go on? Why are you acting like animals, like dogs, fighting each other? Now naturally, the American government has a crafty way of provoking attacks, so that they can have a reason to retaliate. The British used this same strategy in India over 50 years ago, attack unarmed crowds of Indians, trying to provoke them to strike back, to justify their repression. But the Indians were far too intelligent for such traps, because they had an intelligent leader, Mohandas K. Gandhi. Gandhi preached that nonviolence is the only way of peace, that you cannot gain freedom or peace by killing people who do not agree with you. He said that he wanted to change the hearts and minds of the British, not kill them for weaknesses that we all possess.

Naturally, a government conditions through the forces of media, keep the public dumb and ignorant, full of apathy. We will realize the mistakes we are making, as we hand over our freedoms to governments. All governments are naturally evil, because they are organizations for power, for control. In ancient times, the kings of society were righteous and moral, but in this present age, crooks and thieves and murderers have gained power, and this is what governments are made of. Thus, it requires an intelligent and active public to keep the government in line, if they have any hope for their own freedom.

There are many activists out there, who are striving to change society, but neglecting the basic foundation of society, its spirituality. These activists and leaders could do far more good for society by helping spread genuine spirituality in America, because we have become so consumed by materialism, that although America is the richest nation in the world, we are also the world's most spiritually poverty striken country in the world. This country is so full of riches, but the people here are miserable, because they are neglecting their spirituality and their dormant God consciousness. If the activists would put all of their current energy into helping spread and teach spirituality, this country would be healed overnight. But they insist of trying to solve the problem at the surface, and neglect the ocean beneath the problem. The modern man has become so backwards spiritually, that it is no wonder that this nation has the highest depression and suicide rate in the world.

The youths are unsatisfied with fundamentalist religion, and are either turning towards atheistic philosophy, or even worse, towards a hedonistic way of life. And it is all because of the foolishness of the so called religious teachers. In Christianity, Jesus Christ says 'Thou shalt not kill'. Obviously, christians do not take this to mean all living creatures, since they continue to maintain their slaughterhouses, but this commandment is quite clear. 'Thou shalt not kill' means thou shalt not kill any living creature. If Jesus meant that thou shalt not kill your fellow man, he would have used the word 'murder' instead of 'kill'. Why do the christians continue to twist this commandment to their own liking? You cannot simply reject the part of the gospel that you do not like. You have to accept it as it is, unchanged, free from interpretation or mental speculation.

The violence that we inflict on the animals is manifested through the violence we inflict on each other through war. It is only karmically right that as we continue to keep such violent tendencies such as eating meats and flesh, we continue to kill each other in war and violent crimes. The amount of land that is used to feed one cow to be slaughtered, 20 times that amount could be grown in vegetables, beans, grains. So meat eating is not only argriculturally unsound, but completely selfish, when half of the world's population goes to bed hungry, or at best, with a small bowl of rice in their belly. What makes a person think that they have the right to eat meat? It is pure selfishness. It is this kind of selfishness that is causing the third world nations to hate the developed nations. The violence that is occuring in the world today is because of poverty, not because of religious differences, as the mainstream media would have you believe. And I believe that Gandhi once said 'Poverty is the worst form of violence'.

Governments also brainwash their populace into ideas of nationality, such as fighting to 'defend the homeland'. This is pure propaganda, and the poor unfortunate souls who believe these lies are used as pawns in warfare. They did not have the intelligence to discriminate, based on logic, the so called evidence their government put before them, and thus are tricked into joining the military. There are three modes of existence, goodness, passion, and ignorance. Generally, people living under ideas of nationality and military are under the modes of passion and ignorance.

So you see, if the intelligent members of society will simply try to preach and awaken people's dormant God consciousness, society's problems will be healed. It is the duty of the intelligent members of society to help preach universal worship of God, because if mankind cannot get over its petty differences, then we are going to destroy the world with our ignorance. This is the highest need for human society, and it is also the greatest humanitarian service that one can give to society, the preaching of knowledge that will help people become liberated from this material world, and so that they can go back home to God at the end of this life. That is the highest perfection of human life.

I welcome your feedback at my e-mail address, Muscles598@yahoo.com

[cabdirazzaq]

I must say that some of your ideas are beautiful, interesting and almost equivalent with mine while others are rather reluctant and reprehensible.


It is the duty of the intelligent members of society to help preach universal worship of God,
This does not work, would not work, will not work and we starkly would not want it to work. Alas, are you expecting people from such contrary faiths ever to unite? Will the whale, the lion and the bird ever unite or do they all live on different levels? Just to give you a simple example, we have a people calling Jesus(peace b upon him) a liar or/and a bastard and then a people who call him a slave of God and a prophet and then finally a people who claim him to be God, are you expecting these to worship together and just overlook these differences?

Our labels are what we feel we are. Saying and practising my label for instance, "I am a muslim" most certaintly gives me the tranquility I am in need of, knowing that I belong to a nation not because of the color of my skin nor the language of my tongue but rather for the faith within my breast. Finally I end this with the words of my prophet, may peace and blessing of Allah be upon him.

"All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action."

[StonerBill]

"The real purpose of religion is to teach us our constitutional position in the universe. And once we are situated in this transcendental knowledge, we no longer suffer from the material desires that keep us enslaved in this world. As I mentioned above, the human form of life is so valuable, that we should not waste it like animals. We should refrain from the consumption of meat, and should try to refrain from intoxicants as much as possible, as well as controlling our sexual lust, which is the binding force of this universe. Simply because we want to have a few moments of sense gratification, the next thing we know, we have a child, and now we have to work like asses just to support the family we built. The proper purpose of marriage is to begot children who will become God conscious, to provide support for each other, to help one another cultivate transcendental knowledge. This should be the goal for the union of man and woman in marriage. "

this is disgusting. However, for one to need explination of this would mean one is never going to see the other way.

I believe it was god who said to moses, thou shalt not kill. im sure jesus said it too, but he killed animals for sacrifice.

you obviosuly have no point in life, so you fint your only purpose be to fulfil god's will. I mean cmon, being christian is one thing, being that obsessed with christianity? its throwing away all the pleasure you can get in this life. Oh but i guess your just waiting for your death eh? Pleasing god so that you can have a good afterlife.

If god told you 'thanks for being so nice, but your damned to hell, sorry' would you still praise him as your creator and savior of all the other good people in the world? to abstain from pleasure only to be threwn into hell?

[WakeUpAmericaNow]

Our labels are what we feel we are. Saying and practising my label for instance, "I am a muslim" most certaintly gives me the tranquility I am in need of, knowing that I belong to a nation not because of the color of my skin nor the language of my tongue but rather for the faith within my breast. Finally I end this with the words of my prophet, may peace and blessing of Allah be upon him.

Although it remains, that all ideas of nationality, religion, race, are simply artificial. It is the duty of the intelligent members of society to try to understand what Krsna consciousness is about, and if nothing else, to not interfere against it. I see a lot of bitter atheists, which simply because they had a bad experience with religious fundamentalism, insist "All religion is bullshit". They are guilty of a far worse form of 'closedmindedness' than they accuse fundamentalist people of having. Although this is not blind religious sentiment, or fundamentalism, keep that in mind as well.

[WakeUpAmericaNow]

"The real purpose of religion is to teach us our constitutional position in the universe. And once we are situated in this transcendental knowledge, we no longer suffer from the material desires that keep us enslaved in this world. As I mentioned above, the human form of life is so valuable, that we should not waste it like animals. We should refrain from the consumption of meat, and should try to refrain from intoxicants as much as possible, as well as controlling our sexual lust, which is the binding force of this universe. Simply because we want to have a few moments of sense gratification, the next thing we know, we have a child, and now we have to work like asses just to support the family we built. The proper purpose of marriage is to begot children who will become God conscious, to provide support for each other, to help one another cultivate transcendental knowledge. This should be the goal for the union of man and woman in marriage. "

this is disgusting. However, for one to need explination of this would mean one is never going to see the other way.

I believe it was god who said to moses, thou shalt not kill. im sure jesus said it too, but he killed animals for sacrifice.

you obviosuly have no point in life, so you fint your only purpose be to fulfil god's will. I mean cmon, being christian is one thing, being that obsessed with christianity? its throwing away all the pleasure you can get in this life. Oh but i guess your just waiting for your death eh? Pleasing god so that you can have a good afterlife.

If god told you 'thanks for being so nice, but your damned to hell, sorry' would you still praise him as your creator and savior of all the other good people in the world? to abstain from pleasure only to be threwn into hell?
Good friend, what is the point of a life centered around sense gratification? Even animals do this much, but are animals capable of self realization? A lot not dedicated to self realization is nothing just a wasted life. Just because you had a bad experience with christian fundamentalism doesn't mean that you have to reject a personal form of God, and turn to the impersonalist philosophy and the madness that accompanies it, or even reject that much, and become fully athiest and turn to a hedonistic way of life.

[dutch_diciple]

dreamer girl....I do not understand...you say christians should not kill animals anymore based upon the argument "You cannot simply reject the part of the gospel that you do not like. You have to accept it as it is, unchanged, free from interpretation or mental speculation."
But you also say that it is wrong to say 'my way is the only way' but Jesus said He is the only way. So that contradicts cause you say 'take the whole gospel' but you dont take it yourself 'cause you say universal spirituality/religion is the way.

absolutely no offence, just want to understand what you're saying.

[WakeUpAmericaNow]

Dutch, I am the author of this post. I just had dreamergirl post it, since my old account was banned. I was under the screen name "God".

Well, the philosophy I am spouting is this- Let's stop killing the animals, let's start chanting God's name, and let's see how nice the world becomes.

[dutch_diciple]

but how can you ask christians to take the whole gospel, but you don't take it 100% yourself since you don't believe Jesus when He says He's the only way?

[velvet]

about the animal thing.. I wonder why the Bible says 'thou shalt not kill" (=living beings=humans and animals).. instead of 'thou shalt not murder' (=humans only). If God meant only that it isn't ok to kill other humans, why doesn't it say 'murder' instead of 'killing'? It's the same in every translation.. I wonder what word the source texts uses and if the is an ambigues meaning to translating it.

There are non-canonic (?) books wherein it is said that Jesus was a vegetarian, but ofcourse no one wanted to have that written in their 'manual'..

[WakeUpAmericaNow]

but how can you ask christians to take the whole gospel, but you don't take it 100% yourself since you don't believe Jesus when He says He's the only way?
Jesus meant only can you reach God through the guru. I'm sure he didn't mean "Unless you accept me fully and 100 percent, free from questions, then you will go to eternal damnation". He didn't say those words. I just got done reading 1st Corinthians, and Paul never mentioned the word Hell in there once. He spoke once of conquering death, but never "You are going to hell unless you follow me". To answer your question, I do not take religious fundamentalism literally, because that is what has ruined the whole world.

[WakeUpAmericaNow]

about the animal thing.. I wonder why the Bible says 'thou shalt not kill" (=living beings=humans and animals).. instead of 'thou shalt not murder' (=humans only). If God meant only that it isn't ok to kill other humans, why doesn't it say 'murder' instead of 'killing'? It's the same in every translation.. I wonder what word the source texts uses and if the is an ambigues meaning to translating it.

There are non-canonic (?) books wherein it is said that Jesus was a vegetarian, but ofcourse no one wanted to have that written in their 'manual'..
So true Velvet. See, if people stopped eating meat, I think we would see a huge drop in violence around the world. But selfish Americans continue to insist on eating their meats, while half the world starves, using tons of gas, while half the world barely has a home or none at all. For the amount of land that can be used to feed one cow, 20 times that amount can be produced in beans, vegetables, grains. So meat-eating is not only selfish, but agriculturally unsound, too.

[TrippinBTM]

So true Velvet. See, if people stopped eating meat, I think we would see a huge drop in violence around the world. But selfish Americans continue to insist on eating their meats, while half the world starves, using tons of gas, while half the world barely has a home or none at all. For the amount of land that can be used to feed one cow, 20 times that amount can be produced in beans, vegetables, grains. So meat-eating is not only selfish, but agriculturally unsound, too.
20 times is an exaggeration, and most land that cows graze on is not land you can grow crops on, it's scrubland. I agree with you on the point of feeding grains to cows, but then again, feed grain isn't very high quality grain.

By the way, in the bible, in the original Hebrew...is it "kill" or "murder". Things can get lost in translation, or changed, so I wonder what was originally implied by that word.

[WakeUpAmericaNow]

The original was Kill, not murder. And to answer your first paragraph, it is also a matter of a civilized human society. until we stop eating animals, we cannot call ourselves a human society. There are four classes in society, the intelligent, the administrative, the farmers and traders, and the workers. without these four class separations, it is nothing but an animal society. And without religious principles, humans are nothing but animals.

Now, I do not mean religious dogma, or religious fanatism, but I'm talking about basic ideas such as having one wife, having a meat-free diet. But once a society loses it's morals, they have reverted back to animal civilization. As fringe members of society, if we are intelligent enough, we must keep that in mind. this human life was not meant for merely having sense pleasures like animals, but for self realization. No other creature on this planet is capable of self realization, thus this human form is very valuable. please do not waste it.

[TrippinBTM]

The original was Kill, not murder. And to answer your first paragraph, it is also a matter of a civilized human society. until we stop eating animals, we cannot call ourselves a human society. There are four classes in society, the intelligent, the administrative, the farmers and traders, and the workers. without these four class separations, it is nothing but an animal society.
Tell that to the hunter-gatherer tribes who have no such divisions. Are they merely animals, not fully human?

Anyways, I wasn't disagreeing with your point about eating meat. I was just pointing out the grain-to-cow ratio wasn't that high and that cattle land isn't necessarilly crop land. If you want more crop land, become an activist in stopping urban sprawl, we are paving over a hell of a lot of good farmland, that's where most cropland is being lost.

By the way, humans have long supplremented their diets with meat. Again I'll point to the hunter-gatherers, some which still exist today. But we in America eat WAY more meat than most cultures ever have, and spend a shitload of resources to do so (rather than just graze them in the hills, or go hunting, we have industrial meat). I'm not sure eating meat is entirely a horrible thing that makes us "animals" (which we are regardless), but I do agree it would be good for us as a society to scale it way back, for health reasons, spiritual reasons, and environmental reasons.

[Casperthesheet]

Life is an umbrella...

Casper

[WakeUpAmericaNow]

To clarify what many people have brought up- The philosophy of true christianity and the Krsna consciousness movement is really not that much different.

The problem is, so called Christians nowadays do not follow their own religious principles, such as 'wait until marriage for sex', and intoxicating themselves, as well as eating meat. And it is because of this faulty theory, "We are saved through faith, not works", which is true, but that doesn't mean you can live like a creatin and still go back to God. I mean, this movement is taking athiests, and turning them back to God, which fundamentalist Christianity has not succeeded in doing, for the most part. And, this teaches people how to love God, for the sole purpose of loving God, not "I'll love you if you give me salvation", like most so called christians do.

The science of understanding God is all there, in the Bhagavad-Gita, the Srimad Bhagavatam, the Caitanya Caritamrita. These are authorized scriptures, just like the Christian's Bible, the Muslim's Qu'ran. All seem to have the same message- We are all eternal servants of God.

[WakeUpAmericaNow]

Tell that to the hunter-gatherer tribes who have no such divisions. Are they merely animals, not fully human?

Anyways, I wasn't disagreeing with your point about eating meat. I was just pointing out the grain-to-cow ratio wasn't that high and that cattle land isn't necessarilly crop land. If you want more crop land, become an activist in stopping urban sprawl, we are paving over a hell of a lot of good farmland, that's where most cropland is being lost.

By the way, humans have long supplremented their diets with meat. Again I'll point to the hunter-gatherers, some which still exist today. But we in America eat WAY more meat than most cultures ever have, and spend a shitload of resources to do so (rather than just graze them in the hills, or go hunting, we have industrial meat). I'm not sure eating meat is entirely a horrible thing that makes us "animals" (which we are regardless), but I do agree it would be good for us as a society to scale it way back, for health reasons, spiritual reasons, and environmental reasons.
Compare the average intelligence of the 'hunter-gathering' man, as you put it, to the average intelligence of the civilized educated man. As for becoming an activist, this is the highest activism you can give to human society. Instead of just scratching the problem at the surface, you can heal the source of human society's problems, its spiritual poverty. Thus you solve all problems, and this is the most efficient use of an activist's energy.

I am glad that you see how far out of the way that Americans go to have meat, how we maintain slaughterhouses, just to keep our diets filled with meat, while the rest of the world starves.

[cabdirazzaq]

The philosophy of true christianity and the Krsna consciousness movement is really not that much different.
The true teachings of the bible is not only contrary to these paganastic beliefs but it admonishes it severely, thus it rejects it. It is impossible to interpret the verses of the bible which speaks about meat-slaughtering into a message of vegetarianism, albeit the most important message in the bible as well as the quran is clear:

“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.Mark 12:29

Say: "I am only a human being like you. It is revealed to me that your God is One God, therefore take straight path to Him and obedience to Him, and seek forgiveness of Him. And woe to the polytheists.[Fussilat 41.6]

[WakeUpAmericaNow]

If you think that Krsna consciousness is propagating demigod or idol worship, or 'polytheism' as you put it, you have not studied the philosophy of the movement in detail. Yes, God is one, there is one God, and different cultures call Him by different names. The Krsna consciousness movement establishes worship of ONE Supreme Lord, and it strongly speaks against the polytheism demigod worship that fundamental Hinduism engages in. To give a source of the Christian teachings against polytheism, demigod worship, read 1st Corinthians, chapter 8.

All religions place a high importance on the Name of God. This movement is merely saying that the chanting of God's names are the only way to liberation for the common man in this age. Complicated and difficult methods of yoga and meditation are nearly impossible in this age of Kali, the age of quarrell and hypocrisy.

Please, kindly read more about Krsna consciousness. www.vedabase.net (http://www.vedabase.net) is a good site to start with. Thank you

[cabdirazzaq]

You call the leaders of this nation of yours for divine, this alone shows that you are a paganastic people.

[WakeUpAmericaNow]

You call the leaders of this nation of yours for divine, this alone shows that you are a paganastic people. Who said that? The American government, as well as any government in this world, is merely a power structure, and thus, very corruptible, especially in this present age of Kali. I certainly do not agree with the policies of this American government, 'bomb and kill', which is pure stupidy, especially on the part of the American populace to let it take place, when they could stop it, if they demanded their government stop it.

See, a person in Krsna consciousness does not think "I am an American", "He is an Iraqi", and so there is no national boundaries. I tell you, the propagation of Krsna consciousness is the greatest service you can give to human society.

A person in true Krsna consciousness, does not make any distinction of any living entity based on their material body, and thus is hestitant to kill even an ant. I must admit, I have not yet reached this stage of purity, not killing even bugs, so I cannot call myself a servant of God at all.

[cabdirazzaq]

I meant foundars when I wrote leaders, my bad. People like Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada are often called Divine in different websites.

[dutch_diciple]

yes different cultures call God by different names....but this was also in old testament times, and hey God wasn't like that. Also in new testament times, and the apostles went into the world and preached ONLY JESUS and changed the world. Maybe read something of acts 17 where Paul is in Athens and preaches about repenting to God, Christs death and resurrection and that there will be a judgement. And the Bible is clear about it that salvation only comes through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, nothing else (book of Romans).

I respect that you have an universal belief (though I don't agree with it) but then base it on religious writings that support an universal belief, and the Bible isn't one of them.

[WakeUpAmericaNow]

I meant foundars when I wrote leaders, my bad. People like Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada are often called Divine in different websites.
He brought God/Krsna consciousness to the West. He did this at the age of 69 years. Think about it. He certainly could be called Divine, but he repeatedly said "I am not God, I am a SERVANT of God". He speaks repeated "Anyone who says that they are god is actually lower than a dog".

[WakeUpAmericaNow]

yes different cultures call God by different names....but this was also in old testament times, and hey God wasn't like that. Also in new testament times, and the apostles went into the world and preached ONLY JESUS and changed the world. Maybe read something of acts 17 where Paul is in Athens and preaches about repenting to God, Christs death and resurrection and that there will be a judgement. And the Bible is clear about it that salvation only comes through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, nothing else (book of Romans).

I respect that you have an universal belief (though I don't agree with it) but then base it on religious writings that support an universal belief, and the Bible isn't one of them.
I recently got done reading 1st Corinthians, and this does not stand up to the modern day fundamentalist ideal of "My way is the only way, all others are wrong". The word Christ is the greek version of the word Krsna, or Krsta, to be even more accurate. Christ stands for the Supreme Lord, so please stop confusing the Supreme Lord with his human incarnations.

Krsna consciousness does not go against Christianity, it also teaches surrendering to God, etc. Now, I will quote you some verses.

Matthew 7:15
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are raving wolves. (Could this be applied to fundamentalists?)

Romans 16:17
Now I beseech you, brthern, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned, and avoid them. (Sound a lot like fundamentalists, which preach separation, instead of unity?)

Acts 15:1
And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethern, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. (Could this be refered to people who say "This is the only way, all other ways are false"?)

Romans 10:12
For there is no differrence between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. (the same Lord, even though the different cultures obviously called Him by different names, having different languages. By 'all', did he mean only the Christians, or only the Muslims, or only the Jews, or only the Hindus?)

And, with all due respect, I must remind you, that the Srimad-Bhagavatam is obviously much older than the Bible, the Torah, the Qu'ran, in fact, it was around before those religions even came into existence.

[WakeUpAmericaNow]

I'll even be a bit bolder. Now, if there is a fundamental idea, the basic foundation of a religion, then that idea should be QUITE CLEARLY EXPRESSED, FREE FROM INTERPRETATION in the religious scripture? Is this not correct?

Kindly, I ask you to find a verse in the Bible that specifically states the words "You can only get to Heaven by being a Christian, and anyone who does not believe in Christ will go to eternal damnation. All other religions are flat out wrong". Since this idea is the foundation of modern Christianity, I would expect it to be clearly stated in the Bible, without any interpretation, since it is such an important part, in fact the foundation of the modern Christian faith, I would expect to find it quite clearly stated in words very, very similar to what I just typed. Not, "Whoever shall believe in Him shall have eternal life", or "The only way to the Father is through me".

Jesus did not seem to ever make the statement I typed above, but he did make the statement "Thou Shalt Not Kill". Why do the christians continue to interpretate this for their own meaning? It is quite clear. Thou shalt not kill, means any living creature. If Jesus meant to not kill your fellow man, he would have used the word 'murder', so do christians think that Jesus was not intelligent enough to use the right word? The christians, of all people, should not be eating meat, yet they find no moral wrong in maintaining these massive slaughterhouses of death.

[TrippinBTM]

Compare the average intelligence of the 'hunter-gathering' man, as you put it, to the average intelligence of the civilized educated man.
Yes, they are about equal. They know different things but have the same capacity.

As for becoming an activist, this is the highest activism you can give to human society. Instead of just scratching the problem at the surface, you can heal the source of human society's problems, its spiritual poverty. Thus you solve all problems, and this is the most efficient use of an activist's energy.
You have a point there, any change will have to start from within if it is to have any staying power/force. Can't change society unless the people themselves change; otherwise you may solve a few symptoms, but new symptoms just spring up to take their place.

[StonerBill]

to battle over the english words used in teh translation of latin, which had in turn been translated from hebrew and other old texts.. is just foolish.


until we stop eating animals, we cannot call ourselves a human society. There are four classes in society, the intelligent, the administrative, the farmers and traders, and the workers. without these four class separations, it is nothing but an animal society.
ah, so ants are more human than hunter gatherers? they have everything except intelligence.. which you later said hunter gathers do not even have (essentially)



Good friend, what is the point of a life centered around sense gratification? Even animals do this much, but are animals capable of self realization? A lot not dedicated to self realization is nothing just a wasted life. Just because you had a bad experience with christian fundamentalism doesn't mean that you have to reject a personal form of God, and turn to the impersonalist philosophy and the madness that accompanies it, or even reject that much, and become fully athiest and turn to a hedonistic way of life.
I have not had bad experiences with christian fundamentalism, or any spirituality at that rate. Ive had experiences with myself. Would you like me to share them?

http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif here we go

Realisations of self.

Realisations of humanity.

The two are essentially identical.

MY self-realisation is THAT i am a mind formed by a brain in a body



My self realisation is THAT the brain is a powerful thing and should not be treated simply as the home of the 'soul' but as THE 'soul'



My self-realisation is THAT my brain embraces the acceptance of a god, for it makes me feel better. As do drugs, and I consider belief in god(s) as a drug, but a state of mind that does not require one to do anything except feel, themselves, that they are a part of the right thing, spiritually. An evil person who thinks god forgives them is going to feel just as good as a good person who thinks theyÂ’re safe, spiritually.



My self-realisation is that the mind I have works on these feelings, and that the only real purpose in life is to follow one's feelings, whatever they may be.



My self realisation is that while I must follow my feelings, everyone else in the world should to, but humans have devised what we know of as 'ethics' and 'morals' which are necessary to keep some sort of vague balance so that more people are happy than without them.



My self-realisation is that, as a human, while life is essentially pointless, I can conceive meaning. Achievement makes me feel good, as does gratification. And so, I can join these concepts of feeling and meaning to give my own life a specific direction, which is to influence as many lives as I can, fulfilling achievement and gratification; while at the same time embracing morals, and helping morals and ethics (not necessarily the ones taught today) grow in communities, and ensuring that it is not just I who grows at the expense of others.



Me self-realisation is that, as a human, while I can perceive myself, I can also perceive others. Life should not be about ascending yourself to heaven, but ascending the whole human race. It is how humans are meant. Humans, unlike most creatures, require external education.



My self-realisation is that I am in this way a hypocrite, for I believe one should follow their feelings, and that spirituality is about feelings. Yet I also believe the truth should come before feelings, when it comes to belief. Humans have the concept of meaning, and so I believe the one thing that should come above feelings is knowing that we are based on feelings. You say that the thing we have different from animals is self-realisation. I believe that its not just self realisation, its the concept of meaning of and in every part of the universe. I do not consider spirituality as an issue of meaning, but an issue of feelings that relate to the human concept of meaning.



My self-realisation is that I think that People should understand spirituality as a human concept, and use it for moral and sociological teaching and understanding; should not be taken as the source for the universe, but as the source of humanity.



My self-realisation is that I donÂ’t think humanity would function without some sort of religion somewhere. While many people are becoming 'atheist', I donÂ’t think youÂ’ll find that many people embracing the idea that there is no afterlife. If spirituality were gone, most humans, due to most humans being slaves to society (as was intended by evolution), would loose all sense of meaning or direction in life, and see no value in theirs or other peopleÂ’s lives. But I see my belief, that is, that when we die, we die, as making life to become the most valued thing possible. See, if life is infinite... then it has no value. It is the same with any and every resource, despite what anyone will say. And if this can be embraced... then life would take on a whole new meaning. But society would possibly collapse. It depends if people want to work a 9-5 job and then die, as opposed to living a 9-5 job and passing onto the next level that is hopefully more fun than the current one.



I even postulate that human communication is based directly on conveying meaning to each other, and that everything specific that makes us humans and designs our inner monologue is in turn a direct result of human communication.



Perhaps god created man? But monkeys created god.



This and these are my self-realisations.

[dutch_diciple]

“The word Christ is the greek version of the word Krsna, or Krsta, to be even more accurate.”

The word Christ is the greek word of the hebrew ‘messiah’. The term ‘christians’ was created in Antioch, one of the first non-jewish city’s with a christian community (heathens turned christian, which Paul refers to as greek, contrary to jewish christian, which Paul refers to as jews. All are christians). This is written in acts 11:26.

False prophets are those who preach false teaching. How to find out what false teaching is and what not should be found in the Bible.

The ‘doctrine which ye have learned’ in romans 16:17 is the teaching of the apostles, based on the OT and the gospel. It is the teaching that Jesus is the Messiah, or Christ, and has died and resurrected so that there is salvation for those who have faith in Him (this is what a very big part of the book romans is about).

The thing about circumsision is that these people wanted to add good deeds to get to heaven, Paul and Barnabas opposed this because salvation is by the grace of God, through faith since the sacrifice of Christ. In acts 15, the church leaders get together and decide that that is the way, because Christ is the fulfilment of the law.

In romans 10:12, the jews are christian jews (for in romans 9-11, it says that jews that did not accept Christ are branches broken off the tree). The greek are non-jewish christians (not only greek but all heathens, be it barbarians, romans, greek, etc. ‘greek’ is just a NT term for non-jewish christians).

hope to hear a reply from you. Hope that we can discuss this in peace.

[WakeUpAmericaNow]

to battle over the english words used in teh translation of latin, which had in turn been translated from hebrew and other old texts.. is just foolish.

ah, so ants are more human than hunter gatherers? they have everything except intelligence.. which you later said hunter gathers do not even have (essentially)


I have not had bad experiences with christian fundamentalism, or any spirituality at that rate. Ive had experiences with myself. Would you like me to share them?

http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif here we go

Realisations of self.

Realisations of humanity.

The two are essentially identical.

MY self-realisation is THAT i am a mind formed by a brain in a body



My self realisation is THAT the brain is a powerful thing and should not be treated simply as the home of the 'soul' but as THE 'soul'



My self-realisation is THAT my brain embraces the acceptance of a god, for it makes me feel better. As do drugs, and I consider belief in god(s) as a drug, but a state of mind that does not require one to do anything except feel, themselves, that they are a part of the right thing, spiritually. An evil person who thinks god forgives them is going to feel just as good as a good person who thinks theyÂ’re safe, spiritually.



My self-realisation is that the mind I have works on these feelings, and that the only real purpose in life is to follow one's feelings, whatever they may be.



My self realisation is that while I must follow my feelings, everyone else in the world should to, but humans have devised what we know of as 'ethics' and 'morals' which are necessary to keep some sort of vague balance so that more people are happy than without them.



My self-realisation is that, as a human, while life is essentially pointless, I can conceive meaning. Achievement makes me feel good, as does gratification. And so, I can join these concepts of feeling and meaning to give my own life a specific direction, which is to influence as many lives as I can, fulfilling achievement and gratification; while at the same time embracing morals, and helping morals and ethics (not necessarily the ones taught today) grow in communities, and ensuring that it is not just I who grows at the expense of others.



Me self-realisation is that, as a human, while I can perceive myself, I can also perceive others. Life should not be about ascending yourself to heaven, but ascending the whole human race. It is how humans are meant. Humans, unlike most creatures, require external education.



My self-realisation is that I am in this way a hypocrite, for I believe one should follow their feelings, and that spirituality is about feelings. Yet I also believe the truth should come before feelings, when it comes to belief. Humans have the concept of meaning, and so I believe the one thing that should come above feelings is knowing that we are based on feelings. You say that the thing we have different from animals is self-realisation. I believe that its not just self realisation, its the concept of meaning of and in every part of the universe. I do not consider spirituality as an issue of meaning, but an issue of feelings that relate to the human concept of meaning.



My self-realisation is that I think that People should understand spirituality as a human concept, and use it for moral and sociological teaching and understanding; should not be taken as the source for the universe, but as the source of humanity.



My self-realisation is that I donÂ’t think humanity would function without some sort of religion somewhere. While many people are becoming 'atheist', I donÂ’t think youÂ’ll find that many people embracing the idea that there is no afterlife. If spirituality were gone, most humans, due to most humans being slaves to society (as was intended by evolution), would loose all sense of meaning or direction in life, and see no value in theirs or other peopleÂ’s lives. But I see my belief, that is, that when we die, we die, as making life to become the most valued thing possible. See, if life is infinite... then it has no value. It is the same with any and every resource, despite what anyone will say. And if this can be embraced... then life would take on a whole new meaning. But society would possibly collapse. It depends if people want to work a 9-5 job and then die, as opposed to living a 9-5 job and passing onto the next level that is hopefully more fun than the current one.



I even postulate that human communication is based directly on conveying meaning to each other, and that everything specific that makes us humans and designs our inner monologue is in turn a direct result of human communication.



Perhaps god created man? But monkeys created god.



This and these are my self-realisations.



You can go on speculating for a million years and never come to the SupremE Truth. Only by surrender and submission can one be prepared to recieve this Truth. Understanding the Supreme Truth is not a matter of pride, but of humility and intelligence.

[WakeUpAmericaNow]

“The word Christ is the greek version of the word Krsna, or Krsta, to be even more accurate.”

The word Christ is the greek word of the hebrew ‘messiah’. The term ‘christians’ was created in Antioch, one of the first non-jewish city’s with a christian community (heathens turned christian, which Paul refers to as greek, contrary to jewish christian, which Paul refers to as jews. All are christians). This is written in acts 11:26.

False prophets are those who preach false teaching. How to find out what false teaching is and what not should be found in the Bible.

The ‘doctrine which ye have learned’ in romans 16:17 is the teaching of the apostles, based on the OT and the gospel. It is the teaching that Jesus is the Messiah, or Christ, and has died and resurrected so that there is salvation for those who have faith in Him (this is what a very big part of the book romans is about).

The thing about circumsision is that these people wanted to add good deeds to get to heaven, Paul and Barnabas opposed this because salvation is by the grace of God, through faith since the sacrifice of Christ. In acts 15, the church leaders get together and decide that that is the way, because Christ is the fulfilment of the law.

In romans 10:12, the jews are christian jews (for in romans 9-11, it says that jews that did not accept Christ are branches broken off the tree). The greek are non-jewish christians (not only greek but all heathens, be it barbarians, romans, greek, etc. ‘greek’ is just a NT term for non-jewish christians).

hope to hear a reply from you. Hope that we can discuss this in peace.
But, there is no verse that specifically states the foundation of modern Christianity, "Unless you accept Jesus Christ, you will burn in hell forever. All other religions are wrong". This is the fundamental teaching in Christianity, and yet, for some reason, it isn't stated anywhere in the Bible in language that is as clear as the above mentioned phrase. I will quote some scripture from the Gita, now.

"Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reactions. Do not fear." Lord Krishna (Bg. 18.66)

The Bhagavad Gita is the word of God, as it was spoken by God himself and not a self declared son of God or prophet. The Bhagavad Gita was spoken by Lord Krishna, 3100 years before Jesus and 3700 years before Muhammad. It is the only known scriptures spoken by God in person. Hinduism is the only religion based on following a God who has been actually seen by millions. All other religions are based on believing in a God who has never been seen. The Bhagavad Gita gives exact information regarding God, the soul, material nature, birth, death and life after death. No other religious scripture provides this information.

[WakeUpAmericaNow]

Hey Dutch, do you have AIM or Yahoo Messenger? It is much easier to discuss these kinds of things in real-time, instead of having to use a message board. My AIM screen name is ShamanoftheTribe, my Yahoo screen name is Muscles598
Peace

[dutch_diciple]

just because it doesn't say so in the very same verse doesn't mean that it doesn't say it clearly. in the Bible it says that there is no other way that Jesus. That in His sacrifice there is salvation. That there shall be a day of judgement. That salvation is by the grace of God, through faith (and living faith automatically gives birth to good deeds, which are not a way to get salvation). etc. etc. etc. Like I just said, just because it doesn't say so in the very same verse doesn't mean that it doesn't say it clearly.

[WakeUpAmericaNow]

I feel that I've been too harsh in my posts, so please accept my obeisances, Dutch.

Let's find something to agree on. I think that we can both agree that the soul is the eternal servant of God. And I think that we can agree that the purpose of the human life is to cultivate love of God.

That is the basis of KC, Christianity, even Islam.

[Kharakov]

The Bhagavad Gita is the word of God, as it was spoken by God himself and not a self declared son of God or prophet. Who told you this, a priest?

Hinduism is the only religion based on following a God who has been actually seen by millions. All other religions are based on believing in a God who has never been seen.
I admit that I do not know whether I have seen God or not. I will not take the word of a man practiced in the art of self deception over actual revelation by God. Doesn't this leave us at a standstill until God reveals God's existence to us personally?

[Kharakov]

I think that we can agree that the purpose of the human life is to cultivate love of God.Can we agree that a good purpose for human life is to keep the spark of love and joy alive until a future generation gains the power to preserve it forever in a potentially uncaring universe?

edited to add: Uggh, sorry I said that.

[dutch_diciple]

"I feel that I've been too harsh in my posts, so please accept my obeisances, Dutch."

absolutely forgiven, dude! When people have a discussion, often it happened that they retreat to their own home turf (which can be religion/ideology etc) and argument from those points. On itself, nothing is wrong with that, because it is normal to talk from your heart and your own identity. When I talk from my heart, it will be logical that I say christian things for I am christian. then, a discussion can sometimes become a bit cold because people don't understand eachother or don't wanna listen to eachother. So the reasoning out of your own terrain is not bad on itself, the lack of understanding, respect are the problems, and not wanting to listen. I have the idea that we disagree but we do want to have a peaceful and good conversation so that's all groovy man.

"Let's find something to agree on. I think that we can both agree that the soul is the eternal servant of God. And I think that we can agree that the purpose of the human life is to cultivate love of God."

I agree, we both believe the soul is the eternal servant of God and that the purpose of the human is to know God and to make Him known (that's how I'd put it in words, but it's the same thing).

"That is the basis of KC, Christianity, even Islam.'

hmmm I'd say that these things are absolutely important in all 3 of them, but still, the core of christianity is the atoning sacrifice of Jesus. Anyway, we can still have a good conversation. So that's good.

[WakeUpAmericaNow]

Who told you this, a priest?


I admit that I do not know whether I have seen God or not. I will not take the word of a man practiced in the art of self deception over actual revelation by God. Doesn't this leave us at a standstill until God reveals God's existence to us personally?
The Gita was spoken from Krishna to Arjuna 5100 years ago. So yes, it is God's actual words. Try reading some of the Gita, and you can see for yourself, friend.

And yes, let's hope that we can keep ourselves alive long enough for intelligent men to rise to power.

[WakeUpAmericaNow]

"I feel that I've been too harsh in my posts, so please accept my obeisances, Dutch."

absolutely forgiven, dude! When people have a discussion, often it happened that they retreat to their own home turf (which can be religion/ideology etc) and argument from those points. On itself, nothing is wrong with that, because it is normal to talk from your heart and your own identity. When I talk from my heart, it will be logical that I say christian things for I am christian. then, a discussion can sometimes become a bit cold because people don't understand eachother or don't wanna listen to eachother. So the reasoning out of your own terrain is not bad on itself, the lack of understanding, respect are the problems, and not wanting to listen. I have the idea that we disagree but we do want to have a peaceful and good conversation so that's all groovy man.

"Let's find something to agree on. I think that we can both agree that the soul is the eternal servant of God. And I think that we can agree that the purpose of the human life is to cultivate love of God."

I agree, we both believe the soul is the eternal servant of God and that the purpose of the human is to know God and to make Him known (that's how I'd put it in words, but it's the same thing).

"That is the basis of KC, Christianity, even Islam.'

hmmm I'd say that these things are absolutely important in all 3 of them, but still, the core of christianity is the atoning sacrifice of Jesus. Anyway, we can still have a good conversation. So that's good.
I accept Jesus as a great guru, and I often read his teachings. But to blatantly call him the only authorized teacher of God, is to deny the authority of other religious teachings. It is similar to having the attitude "I am an American, thus I am better than everyone else". There are servants of God in all cultures, all religions. God is not just for the americans, or for the white man.

[Kharakov]

The Gita was spoken from Krishna to Arjuna 5100 years ago. So yes, it is God's actual words.The only problem I have with this statement is that there is no true indication that God spoke these words. It is in your own imagination that God spoke these words directly. It is wrong for you to presume that your imagination is more refined and true than anothers- for God, if God exists, would be able to produce many pure and refined imaginations in many wonderful beautiful ways. The only truth we can discern from religion is that it is part of the bonfire that burns within our imaginations, and perhaps religion is only fuel for the fire that burns within our mind.
Try reading some of the Gita, and you can see for yourself, friend.I am at a library, so hopefully they have a copy that I can check out. I just saw a copy of the Quran that I was pondering checking out.

And yes, let's hope that we can keep ourselves alive long enough for intelligent men to rise to power.Amen to that.

[WakeUpAmericaNow]

"The only problem you have", you said. To understand God, you cannot bring you false pride, your personal opinions, your mental speculations into it. You must hear submissivle, like a child. This is how one gains true knowledge.

[StonerBill]

You can go on speculating for a million years and never come to the SupremE Truth. Only by surrender and submission can one be prepared to recieve this Truth. Understanding the Supreme Truth is not a matter of pride, but of humility and intelligence.can you explain how this relates to something ive said AT ALL? did i even use the word 'speculate' in my post? or 'pride'?

you can believe in ANYTHING and understand ANYTHING if you surrender to believing it.

please make more sense. unless your jsut another 'you just need faith! give in to god!' which is pretty much telling people not to think for themselves. to surrender their ability to consider ideas, and to jsut accept them in order to be englihtened. it doesnt work like that.

id apreciate if you referred to at least one thing out of the many issues i raised before dismissing it wihtout any explination

[WakeUpAmericaNow]

can you explain how this relates to something ive said AT ALL? did i even use the word 'speculate' in my post? or 'pride'?

you can believe in ANYTHING and understand ANYTHING if you surrender to believing it.

please make more sense. unless your jsut another 'you just need faith! give in to god!' which is pretty much telling people not to think for themselves. to surrender their ability to consider ideas, and to jsut accept them in order to be englihtened. it doesnt work like that. What I meant by the use of my word 'speculation' in describing your post, is that it is quite clear that the conclusions you came to were came to through mental speculation.

No, I am not a person telling you to have blind faith in God. Religion should be both faith AND logic. If it is not logical, then it cannot be said to be truth. But, you cannot manufacture your own religion, and then call it truth. This leads to madness. But I invite you to listen to your own tone. If you are aware enough, you can see quite clearly that you have an intellectual pride, and are proud of your 'realizations'.

Hear submissively the word of God, whether it be Qu'ran, Bible, Gita, or whatever, and you will gain true knowledge. Speculation will lead to nothing but deeper ignorance and madness. I know that it is the latest fad nowadays to think that you are God, and because of this, no one has any humility anymore. What's the point of being humble if we are all God? It's pure nonsense, and madness.

[TrippinBTM]

Hear submissively the word of God, whether it be Qu'ran, Bible, Gita, or whatever, and you will gain true knowledge. Speculation will lead to nothing but deeper ignorance and madness. I know that it is the latest fad nowadays to think that you are God, and because of this, no one has any humility anymore. What's the point of being humble if we are all God? It's pure nonsense, and madness.
Interestingly, though, is the fact that someone had to pioneer these original faiths. Today we can read the Gita or the Quran, but back then, these didn't exist. Mohammed couldn't just turn a few pages to find his spirituality (especially since he was illiterate!). Sometimes you have to find your own way, speculation could be part of that if used properly and investigated fully.

[WakeUpAmericaNow]

Speculation will lead to madness. You cannot manufacture your own religion. The Gita was spoken 5100 years ago, before there were religious desginations such as 'Christian', 'Muslim', or 'Hindu'. Although it is today known as a 'Hindu' text, back then, it was the book of knowledge. Please read the Gita, and compare it to the other scriptures, and see for yourself which has more knowledge.

[velvet]

Please read the Gita, and compare it to the other scriptures, and see for yourself which has more knowledge.
Do you perhaps know a good online text version (english or dutch) of it? That would be awesome..

[cabdirazzaq]

Speculation will lead to madness. You cannot manufacture your own religion. The Gita was spoken 5100 years ago, before there were religious desginations such as 'Christian', 'Muslim', or 'Hindu'. Although it is today known as a 'Hindu' text, back then, it was the book of knowledge. Please read the Gita, and compare it to the other scriptures, and see for yourself which has more knowledge.Acually muslims existed before Muhammed(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him), christians and jews will also accept this(read the following) sence the word islam means submitting one self totally to God. Ask any christian if Noah, Adam and Abraham(peace be upon them) submitted themselves to God and they will answer yes, then these prophets are muslims.

19. Truly, the religion with Allah is Islam...[Quran]

By saying:
"Only by surrender and submission can one be prepared to recieve this Truth."
it sounds as if you are agreeing. But do remember that you cannot agree to both at the same time sence Allah(may he be exalted) only accepts one faith(as said in the quran) and if you agree to the quran you are contradicting yourself. How can one believe in A and B at the same time when believing in A means rejecting B?

Im still quite stunned of this faith mixing of yours, remember that the Quran strongly declares that the guided and saved are the followers of Muhammed(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) and the followers of other prophets but these saved jews and christians etc are only those who were jews and christians before Muhammed(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) anyone who rejects him after he had arrived are not guided.

[Kharakov]

Please read the Gita, and compare it to the other scriptures, and see for yourself which has more knowledge.
I read a part of the Gita and it helped me with my current development. It was the right thing at the right time for me. Thanks for bringing it up.

[Kharakov]

Interestingly, though, is the fact that someone had to pioneer these original faiths. Today we can read the Gita or the Quran, but back then, these didn't exist. Mohammed couldn't just turn a few pages to find his spirituality (especially since he was illiterate!). Sometimes you have to find your own way, speculation could be part of that if used properly and investigated fully.
Mohammed didn't find his own way, he was guided by God.

[StonerBill]

oh so, since its been written in a book, that makes it more real than somethign someone creates?

have you ever heard of Michael Faraday? he practically brought electricity into the world. and you know how? 100% his own observations and speculations. he observed other scientists, and never read his information from books (though he was a book binder, he only compiled books)

everyoen called him mad

his mentor disowned him when he descovered what no one else did

because everyone else took their knowlege from books and what was accepted as the truth, instead of making their own conclusions from the base up.

so dont you give me shit about self devised realisations. (not that im trying to make out my ideas are completely self-devised)

and yes, ironically his religion was that puritan one where they believe every single word of the bible to be literal and real; but it doesnt detract from the message, since it only directed his motives for being a scientist, and wasnt part of his descoveries. I believe that there is a reality, and that is my motive.

submissively accepting god will lead you to knowlege, but you can never find real knowlege without forging the bonds of realisation with your own mind. If god is real, why the hell would you need to read a book in order to realise him? you should be able to do that completely on your own, through spiritual derscovery. if you dont have faith in your mind then how can you give it value?

and waht is 'madness'? thinkning differently to how society wants you to? or are you suggesting it will lead to schizophrenia? :rolleyes:

[StonerBill]

?

[Kharakov]

submissively accepting god will lead you to knowlege, but you can never find real knowlege without forging the bonds of realisation with your own mind. If god is real, why the hell would you need to read a book in order to realise him? you should be able to do that completely on your own, through spiritual derscovery. if you dont have faith in your mind then how can you give it value?
God's hand is revealed in every one of God's creations.
There are signposts in life to guide you.
Whether or not you except something is determined by God.
At some point in your life, "the book" might be good for you, in which case you will read it. The Bible and Koran can be compared to vitamins that fortify the bread of life.

[StonerBill]

"Whether or not you except something is determined by God."

dont you have free will?

[BlackGuardXIII]

"Whether or not you except something is determined by God."

dont you have free will?
Yes, except when you accept there's an exception to every rule.

Odd as this may sound, my view, if there is a God, (which I don't know), is that we do have free will, and make our own decisions and choices in life......but......those choices and decisions are already known to God, (should God exist, that is.)
Or, this is all just a creation of my mind, and exists solely of my own making...
It is either one of those two possibilities, or else time is an illusion, and the present is the only reality. All time is simultaneous, instaneous, and is all happening right now.
That is actually my preferred option.
Told you it would sound odd........

[StonerBill]

there was another thread that i believe was won by the side that said (me included) that for god to know what we are going to do is a paradox if he grants free will as well.

if you 'realise' theres an exception to each rule then you will loose grip of reality, laws of physics are rules, societies rules are guidelines. just because rules of human concept have exceptions doesnt mean rules concerning reality and the universe do.

[shaba]

"In a way, in our contemporary world view, it's easy to think that science has come to take the place of God. But some philosophical problems remain as troubling as ever. Take the problem of free will. This problem has been around for a long time, since before Aristotle in 350 B.C. St. Augustin, St. Thomas Aquinas, these guys all worried about how we can be free if God already knows in advance everything we're going to do. Nowadays, we know that the world operates according to some fundamental physical laws, and these laws govern the behavior of every object in the world. These laws, because they are so trustworthy, they enable incredible technological achievements. But look at yourself. We're just physical systems too, right? We're just complex arrangements of carbon molecules. We're mostly water. And our behavior isn't going to be an exception to these basic physical laws. So it starts to look like whether its God setting things up in advance, and knowing everything you're going to do, or whether it's these basic physical laws governing everything, there's not a lot of room left for freedom.

So you might try to just ignore the question, ignore the mystery of free will, and say, oh well, it's just an historical anecdote, it's sophomoric, it's a question with no answer, just forget about it. But the question keeps staring you in the face. Think about individuality for example. Who you are is mostly a matter of the free choices that you make. Or take responsibility. You can only be held responsible, you can only be found guilty, or you can only be admired and respected for things you did of your own free will. So the question keeps coming back. And we don't really have a solution to it. It starts to look like all our decisions are really just a charade.

Think about how it happens. There's some electrical activity in your brain, your neurons fire, they send a signal down into your nervous system, it passes along down into your muscle fibers, they twitch, you might reach out your arm. It looks like it's a free action on your part, but every part of that process is actually governed by physical laws, chemical laws, electrical laws, and so on.

So now it starts to look like the big bang set up the initial conditions, and the whole rest of human history, and even before, is really just the playing out of subatomic particles according to these basic fundamental physical laws. We think we're special. We think we have some kind of special dignity, but that now comes under threat. That's really challenged by this picture.

So you might be saying, well, wait a minute. What about quantum mechanics? I know enough contemporary physical theory to know it's not really like that. It's really a probabilistic theory. There's room. It's loose. It's not deterministic. And that's going to enable us to understand free will. But if you look at the detail, it's not really going to help because what happens is you have some very small quantum particles, and their behavior is apparently a bit random, they sort of swerve, their behavior is absurd in the sense that its unpredictable, and we can't understand it based on anything that came before. It just does something out of the blue according to a probabilistic framework. But is that going to help with freedom? I mean, should our freedom be just a matter of probabilities, just some random swerving in a chaotic system? That starts to seem like it's worse. I'd rather be a gear in a big deterministic physical machine than just some random swerving.

So we can't just ignore the problem. We have to find room in our contemporary world view for persons with all that that entails. Not just bodies, but persons. That means trying to solve the problem of freedom, finding room for choice and responsibility, and trying to understand individuality."

[TrippinBTM]

Man, you're just one "Waking Life" quotin' machine! You always seem to have a quote on hand from that movie...

[BlackGuardXIII]

there was another thread that i believe was won by the side that said (me included) that for god to know what we are going to do is a paradox if he grants free will as well.

if you 'realise' theres an exception to each rule then you will loose grip of reality, laws of physics are rules, societies rules are guidelines. just because rules of human concept have exceptions doesnt mean rules concerning reality and the universe do.
I agree that it is a paradox, or in my view, an effort in futility. It makes little sense why it would be of any point to have us just follow through on a script that we may not know ahead of time, but that someone does. There is not any reason I can see for this exercise to be of any purpose. That is why I prefer my other option.
Regarding physical laws having exceptions.....I dunno, I just know that I see things quite often that as far as I can tell defy known universal laws. The number of times I have seen it.......hundreds. So, either I am easily fooled and brainwashed, or there is some flexibility to the laws, I hope it is the second one......

[shaba]

Man, you're just one "Waking Life" quotin' machine! You always seem to have a quote on hand from that movie...
The movie is one of the only movies that I know of that deals with the "BIG" questions, and it ties into what we are discussing.

[TrippinBTM]

The movie is one of the only movies that I know of that deals with the "BIG" questions, and it ties into what we are discussing.
I know it man, I wasn't makin fun of you, I hope you didn't think that.

As far as the free will/determinism issue goes, I look at it this way. If God is a thinking, seperate entity, the issue remains. But if you look at the universe in a pantheistic sort of way (where the universe IS god), then of course "god" knows the future and every possibility. Modern physics show the universe to be a collection of probability waves intersecting to create the real. So for a given action, every probability is out there, coexisting, but only one or two can be manifested (due to all the other probabilities for every other thing in the universe). Where there's more than one possible, then you have choice.

[shaba]

I know it man, I wasn't makin fun of you, I hope you didn't think that.
No, no, its cool.

[Kharakov]

"Whether or not you except something is determined by God."

dont you have free will?Yes you have voluntary choices such as: I would rather have BLue Bunny Chocolate Seduction than mint chocolate chip right now.

No you do not make them without prior causes like: Tasted blue bunny before, are you feeling in a minty mood, full, have flu, on diet, did a line, on acid, are you stoned man?

God is the orchestrater of all action/reaction. I was thinking about this series of books I read as a teen- the Belgariad. In it, there is this kid Garion who is the servant of this super powerful being (basically God). The being (God) explains Garion's existence to Garion at one point by comparing him to a stone thrown at the beginning of time to hit the exact right spot to make everything perfect. Without the stone (Garion) the universe would not be on the right track. This means that all of the 'obstacles' in Garions life were there to guide Garion to the right points at the right time. The entity (God) compared himself to someone who can kill a whole flock of sparrows with one stone, because God knows exactly where to throw the stone to cause a cascading effect throughout history.

When you compare this to reality, you can achieve the realization that this is exactly what is happening in your life. The spectacular coincidences that occur when you pay attention should lead you to see that life is a planned out orchestrated work of love of which you are an integral part (whether or not you know it).

[shaba]

^^ that was beautiful.

[StonerBill]

but didnt conclude anything?

it doesnt count as our choice if god throws the stone in the place that MAKES us choose the decision required.

Having tasted things before will make us more susceptablle to choosing one flavour over the other, but it will not make this happen, the mind can derive its choice from other causes as well.

so either god's 'stone' is just one factor in our choices, therefor meaning he doesnt know what well do, or god causes all the factors directly or indirectly, which means that we dont have free will.

unless, as inferred, freewill is an illusion, and we dont actually have free will.

[Kharakov]

it doesnt count as our choice if god throws the stone in the place that MAKES us choose the decision required. I agree. God has sufficient wisdom to guide our choices, we do not. We can relax in the fact that God does guide our choices.

so either god's 'stone' is just one factor in our choices, therefor meaning he doesnt know what well do, or god causes all the factors directly or indirectly, which means that we dont have free will.We are all stones, stonies, and stoners.

We make voluntary choices, but they come to us in the same manner as life does: freely. The choices we make are formed by God.

So: we do not have free will in the sense ability to make a choice without prior cause however we do have free will in the sense that we make voluntary choices.

unless, as inferred, freewill is an illusion, and we dont actually have free will. The thought of free will is simply one of the prior causes to our decision making process. So free will (as the thought 'I am making a voluntary decision') does exist. It doesn't mean that you make the decision without prior cause- that concept is ludicrous- the fact that the decision exists is a prior cause to a choice being made. A creation can not remove itself from prior cause, and God doesn't need a prior cause because God is eternal (that means God has never at any point in infinite eternity not existed).