Who has made it? Have you seen a design which hasn't a designer ?!

[heshamzanto]

u must see this before it's too late

http://www.think-deeply.tk/

[Hikaru Zero]

*reads it*

Sorry, man, but I have to say this, and I'm going to say it rudely.

Anyone who believes in that bullshit is a f***ing idiot.

If Allah is the designer of the universe,
And everything has a designer,
Then answer me this:

Who is the designer of Allah?

And then who is the designer of he who designed Allah?

That manner of thinking is freakin' circular and moronic. Don't let yourself be fooled.

(Edit) No personal offenses intended.

[cabdirazzaq]

Hicky here I present to you a list of those which you qualify as Idiots:
Einstien
Newton
Keppler
Mendel
Galelei
Khwarizmi
Linneus to mention a few...
Do you think that they are idiots, have you ever thought that perhaps it is you who are the duped one?

To answer your question I say;
If we agree that Allah(may he be exalted) is the designer then we automaticly agree that he was not designed, count down from 10 and see where it takes you(remember "0" is nothing)

A: Allah(may he be exalted) exists and B: He says that he is the first and the last, the one without ending nor beginning(it all ends with only "1")
If we believe in A we found ourselves compelled to believe in B aswell.

[Hikaru Zero]

Hicky here I present to you a list of those which you qualify as Idiots:
Einstien
Newton
Keppler
Mendel
Galelei
Khwarizmi
Linneus to mention a few...
Do you think that they are idiots, have you ever thought that perhaps it is you who are the duped one?

To answer your question I say;
If we agree that Allah(may he be exalted) is the designer then we automaticly agree that he was not designed, count down from 10 and see where it takes you(remember "0" is nothing)

A: Allah(may he be exalted) exists and B: He says that he is the first and the last, the one without ending nor beginning(it all ends with only "1")
If we believe in A we found ourselves compelled to believe in B aswell.

First off, Einstein, Newton, Kepler, and Galilei did not believe in Allah. The others I can't verify, but I know that these few didn't.

And yes, they did believe in a God, but did I say that they used the logic that was posted on this thread? No. Not everything necessarily HAS to have a designer; if Allah doesn't have a designer, then GUESS WHAT, the whole point of this thread was just wrong, and you're not disagreeing with me, you're agreeing with me!

You're proving my point for me! Thank you!

Do you think that they are idiots, have you ever thought that perhaps it is you who are the duped one?

They didn't necessarily believe that "everything" has a creator. Besides, it's possible for any of those great thinkers to have been right or wrong. I'm not saying I'm right either, I'm simply pointing out that your logic is incredibly flawed. None of our thoughts or ideas are any better than the next person's, since there is no evidence at all, which means Einstein doesn't necessarily have a one-up on myself, or on you for that matter. We are all quite equal. =)

If we agree that Allah(may he be exalted) is the designer then we automaticly agree that he was not designed

I don't agree that he was not designed; don't presuppose facts like that. The point of this thread was that "EVERYTHING" has a designer. Which means that Allah must have one too; please re-read the posts up until this point to stay on track.

count down from 10 and see where it takes you(remember "0" is nothing)

Negative One, Negative Two, Negative Three, Negative Four ...

... 0 isn't necessarily the end, and there is no way you can possibly tell me that negative numbers don't exist. :rolleyes:

He says that he is the first and the last, the one without ending nor beginning(it all ends with only "1")
If we believe in A we found ourselves compelled to believe in B aswell.

In that case, Allah does NOT have a designer and NOT EVERYTHING HAS A DESIGNER, thanks for arguing my point! ;)

Anyway, I rest my case, at least for now.

[TrippinBTM]

Starting with the faulty assumption that the universe was designed, one will end up with faulty conclusions.

[cabdirazzaq]

First off, Einstein, Newton, Kepler, and Galilei did not believe in Allah. The others I can't verify, but I know that these few didn't

And yes, they did believe in a God, but did I say that they used the logic that was posted on this thread? ,

You are contradicting yourself, first you claim that they do not believe in God then you say they do? And yes, Newton arguments were very like those posted here, he saw design he concluded that it had a designer, his own words follows as:

"This most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being. This Being governs all things... as Lord over all, and on account of His dominion. He is wont to be called Lord God, Universal Ruler"(. Principia, Newton, 2nd edition; J. De Vries, Essentials of Physical Science, B. Eerdmans Pub.Co., Grand Rapids, SD, 1958, p.15)

Keppler said:

"I had the intention of becoming a theologian... but now I see how God is, by my endeavors, also glorified in astronomy, for 'heavens declare the glory of God'(Johannes Kepler, quoted in: J.H. Tiner, Johannes Kepler-Giant of Faith and Science (Milford, Michigan: Mott Media, 1977), p. 197)

Einstein did also believe in God aswell:
"I cannot conceive of a genuine scientist without that profound faith. The situation may be expressed by an image: science without religion is lame"(. Science, Philosophy and Religion, A Symposium, published by the Conference on Science, Philosophy and Religion in Their Relation to the Democratic Way of Life, Inc., New York, 1941)
You are loosing credability, get your facts right.


Negative One, Negative Two, Negative Three, Negative Four ...
.. 0 isn't necessarily the end, and there is no way you can possibly tell me that negative numbers don't exist.
Do me a favor and walk to a fruit shop and try bying (-2) apples and see what it costs you or draw me a circle with the area of 0cm2, do not pretend that you did not understand. At last only the number "1" remains!

I see your point and I don't see any real reason to argue with you.

[Hikaru Zero]

You are contradicting yourself, first you claim that they do not believe in God then you say they do?

I am sorry ... I do not usually say things like this, but ...

You are a fucking idiot.

I said they do not believe in ALLAH. That is not to say they don't believe in ANY god. Please read what I am saying from now on, not what you are interpreting me to be saying.

And all of the other things you quoted, I REALIZE THAT THEY ALL BELIEVE IN *A* GOD, BUT NONE BELIEVED IN "ALLAH" AS ISLAM DEFINED.

You will have to pardon my lack of patience for people who do not read what I say, or interpret things like "Allah" to mean a god in general. Even if you truly believe that "Allah" is the alpha and omega, Allah is the name of A god; Allah may be the only god that exists, but that is not to say that other gods have not been suggested, and that the term "god" with a lowercase g refers to ANY deity that has been suggested to exist.

And even in the quotes you pasted, there is no mention of "Allah," only "God" with a capital G.

Do me a favor and walk to a fruit shop and try bying (-2) apples and see what it costs you or draw me a circle with the area of 0cm2, do not pretend that you did not understand. At last only the number "1" remains!

If I buy two apples, that's like saying, I gained 2 apples and lost 2 dollars.

If I buy negative two apples, that's like saying, I sold 2 apples, and gained 2 dollars.

In any kind of mathematics, 2 - 2 can be written as "2 + (-2)" and vice versa. Likewise, you can rewrite "buy negative 2 apples" as "sell 2 apples," which is easily possible, and would result in a negative loss (which also can be written as a "profit").

And any geometry teacher can draw you a circle with an area of 0 cm^2. All you have to do is walk up to the board, and do nothing. Circles with 0 cm^2 do not need to be drawn, because no marks have to be written to draw them.

Now, I will concede to you the fact that you can't draw a circle with a radius of -1 in conventional mathematics. However, that is because the length of any line is an *absolute value,* which means, if you take the coordinates of the beginning of the line, and subtract them from the coordinates of the end of the line, and then take away any negative signs which result, you will be left with a positive number, called the length.

That is the distance, or displacement, between the two points. Distance can never be negative, distance is defined as a difference (implying subtraction), and subtracting a negative number is equivalent to adding the number (yielding a positive number). So fundamentally, the concept of drawing a radius of -1 is impossible, because a radius of -1 cannot exist, as we have defined it.

It could be said similarly that a radius of -1 can exist, but that it would be drawn exactly the same as you would draw a radius of +1. Rather, the "difference between the start of the radius and end of the radius" would be -1, but since radii are defined as absolute values of that difference, the "radius" would be 1. It all comes down to losing numerical precision, kind of like chopping off the first bit in a byte, and calling it an "unsigned" number (which assumes that it is positive). Absolute values aren't really "numbers," because they lack the precision that positive or negative numbers have; the precision to discern between positive or negative is what I am referring to.

--

Also, believe me, I don't mean to insult your religion or your personal belief in Allah; it is just as acceptable as other people's belief in God, my "belief" if you'll call it that, in Gaia, or an atheist's belief in nothing.

But if you are arriving at your conclusions using the logic that started this thread, you should really reconsider your faith. I don't know whether there is a designer or not, and I don't know if things keep going on for infinity; nor do I honestly care. But I don't like when people spew propaganda that offers flawed logic, in order to persuade people to take up their cause. It's my choice and the choices to others to be saved; I will discuss it if asked kindly, but propaganda that is thrown out there just to convert people is outright annoying. I'm sure you can understand my feelings about that, especially if I started trying to convert you.

[SilverClover14]

Allah is Arabic for God. Essentially, they're the same person, just like the Jewish God is no different than the Christian God. All 3 are different interpretations of basically the same thing (so... oversimplifying it alot, Islam and Christianity could almost been seen as radical sects of Judaism centuries removed).

But... just as any hardcore religious site, this one just makes me laugh (again).

Islam is a very beautiful religion culture-wise however. Just once the actual faith part comes in, I'm gone.

[cabdirazzaq]

Allah is Arabic for God. Essentially, they're the same person, just like the Jewish God is no different than the Christian God. All 3 are different interpretations of basically the same thing (so... oversimplifying it alot, Islam and Christianity could almost been seen as radical sects of Judaism centuries removed).

But... just as any hardcore religious site, this one just makes me laugh (again).

Islam is a very beautiful religion culture-wise however. Just once the actual faith part comes in, I'm goneIt satisfy me that atleast 1 person understands(or as most likley the other way around, everbody understands except hikky). To the extent of my knowledge most of them were christians!!!(except Einstein and Khwarizmi)Mendel was even a munkFirst off, Einstein, Newton, Kepler, and Galilei did not believe in AllahKEPPELER EVEN WROTE: "Who gave white bears and white wolves to the snowy regions of the North, and a food for the bears the whale, and for the wolves, birds' eggs?" asked Kepler and then replied: "Great is our Lord and great His virtue and of his wisdom there is no number: praise Him, ye heavens, praise Him, ye sun, moon, and planets, use every sense for perceiving, every tongue for declaring your Creator. Praise Him, ye celestial Harmonies, praise Him, ye judges of the Harmonies uncovered: and thou my soul, praise the Lord thy Creator, as long as I shall be: for out of Him and through Him and in Him are all things, both the sensible and the intelligible; for both whose whereof we are utterly ignorant and those which we know are the least part of them; because there is still more beyond. To him be praise, honor, and glory, world without end."

.NEWTON WROTE: .."He (God) is eternal and infinite, omnipotent and omniscient; that is, his duration reaches from eternity to eternity; his presence from infinity to infinity; he governs all things, and knows all things that are or can be done. He is …eternal and infinite; …he endures and is present. He endures forever, and is everywhere present; and, by existing always and everywhere, he constitutes duration and space... We know him only by his most wise and excellent contrivances of things... [W]e reverence and adore him as his servants…"

Look at your words:"did not believe in Allah."
Arabs say Allah while jews say Elohim and christians say God/The father, all 3 of them are talking about the lord of Moses and the Lord of Adam(peace be upon them)! For the second time now; get your facts right.

If I buy two apples, that's like saying, I gained 2 apples and lost 2 dollars.

If I buy negative two apples, that's like saying, I sold 2 apples, and gained 2 dollars.Are you teaching me simple math? You are missing my point, trying holding (-1) apple in your hand, you can´t! In reality, it ends with 1.
Now I dont have anything against discussing with people who are agnostic, atheist or what ever you are as I like discussing with people like Occam. He has 3 qualities(or atleast some of these 3 qualities) and you are lacking them all, a) You are extremley self-deluded and arrogant which compells you to call people idiots even though you are the one who is incorrect. b) You have no patience what so ever. c) You like speaking without knowledge and it's almost impossible to respond to such an ignorance.

And when they hear evil vain talk, they withdraw from it and say: "To us our deeds, and to you your deeds. Peace be to you. We seek not (the way of) the ignorant.[Quran Qasas]

[NatureFreak412]

I kinda think about it like this.

If the only reason to live, is to make sure ur species survives a nother generation, then what is the beauty in that?? Where is the art?

I believe in a Creator, and have faith because if gives purpose, if I am wrong then it will not matter, but if I am right then, my purpose will be fulfilled and I will see whats on the other side.

If it wasnt for the idea of a Deity then our civilization would not be here, ancient man would have never really bothered looking into the heavens and wondering about the god(s) that may have existed.

Our ideas of a creator is what seperates man from animal. Whether it be Jesus, Allah, Ra, Apollo, Brahma, or just simply God, its what makes us who we are, and we should not forget that.

[Hikaru Zero]

KEPPELER EVEN WROTE:[/u][/b] "Who gave white bears and white wolves to the snowy regions of the North, and a food for the bears the whale, and for the wolves, birds' eggs?" asked Kepler and then replied: "Great is our Lord and great His virtue and of his wisdom there is no number: praise Him, ye heavens, praise Him, ye sun, moon, and planets, use every sense for perceiving, every tongue for declaring your Creator. Praise Him, ye celestial Harmonies, praise Him, ye judges of the Harmonies uncovered: and thou my soul, praise the Lord thy Creator, as long as I shall be: for out of Him and through Him and in Him are all things, both the sensible and the intelligible; for both whose whereof we are utterly ignorant and those which we know are the least part of them; because there is still more beyond. To him be praise, honor, and glory, world without end."

.NEWTON WROTE: .."He (God) is eternal and infinite, omnipotent and omniscient; that is, his duration reaches from eternity to eternity; his presence from infinity to infinity; he governs all things, and knows all things that are or can be done. He is …eternal and infinite; …he endures and is present. He endures forever, and is everywhere present; and, by existing always and everywhere, he constitutes duration and space... We know him only by his most wise and excellent contrivances of things... [W]e reverence and adore him as his servants…"

Look at your words:"did not believe in Allah."

Arabs say Allah while jews say Elohim and christians say God/The father, all 3 of them are talking about the lord of Moses and the Lord of Adam(peace be upon them)! For the second time now; get your facts right.

So be it. This is assuming we are talking about "Yaweh," then (which is supposed to be the god that both the Bible and Koran (sp?) refer to). I admit I am no Christian or Islamic scholar, but there have been SO many times where I have been arguing with either a Christian or a Muslim, and they have referred to God and Allah as separate entities. Come to think of it, I don't think I've EVER argued with someone who considers them to be the same entity. So I suppose I must concede this to you; I mean that Einstein and Newton were Christian, and not Muslim. Since when I argue with a typical uneducated person, this causes a lot of controversy as to "who believes in which God," I'm used to arguing that way to make things simple.

Are you teaching me simple math? You are missing my point, trying holding (-1) apple in your hand, you can´t! In reality, it ends with 1.
Now I dont have anything against discussing with people who are agnostic, atheist or what ever you are as I like discussing with people like Occam. He has 3 qualities(or atleast some of these 3 qualities) and you are lacking them all, a) You are extremley self-deluded and arrogant which compells you to call people idiots even though you are the one who is incorrect. b) You have no patience what so ever. c) You like speaking without knowledge and it's almost impossible to respond to such an ignorance.

Well if you want to get technical, I can hold a "-1 apple" in my hand by holding an apple made out of antimatter (although that would have dire consequences, considering that on contact with anything, it would violently explode with tons more force than a nuclear bomb). Were I a "-1 human" though, and what I mean is, if I were made out of antimatter, I could hold the antimatter apple just fine; antiparticle physics tells us this. Just because we are made out of the equivalent of "positive" matter, doesn't mean that "negative" matter can't exist. When matter is created from raw energy, two equal particles in two opposite directions are created, and when they rejoin, the process is called "annihilation," and 0 results from it. So in order to take something "an apple" and get nothing, you need to add an antimatter apple ("a negative apple"), and sure enough you will end up with nothing in your hands. Beyond that, from the perspective of a human made out of antimatter, a "negative apple" would be what we consider to be a normal apple. So yes, it IS possible to hold a negative apple in your hands. It would just be very dangerous, because we are made from "positive" matter.

In response to (a), first off, scroll up, boy. You insulted ME first. The person who posted the original thread, was posting a thread that insulted people who don't believe in a God, or don't believe things a certain way. I told him off, which I have every right to do, considering it's quite insulting to me; it's more bullshit propaganda that is annoying, misleading, and circular.

Then, you came in, and took it upon yourself to stand up for this person by INSULTING ME. I did absoutely nothing to provoke you, you just up and suggested that I was an idiot. So don't you go talking about who is arrogant and who isn't. Yes, I do defend myself quite vigourously when I am insulted, but you know what, I have a darn good right to do so, and if you don't like it, well, that's your problem, not mine. Even Occam will defend himself if insulted, like any other person, save maybe Ghandi; and I don't claim to be as great or as wise as Ghandi.

In response to (b), you are correct. I don't have any patience, and I'll be the first to admit it. I only have a short life, you know. =P

In response to (c), I am speaking with all of the knowledge I have gathered during my short time on this planet. When I speak with other people with similar knowledge, they don't have any problems with my information. You seem to have quite a bit of problems with it; and if my knowledge is so wrong or misleading, why ISN'T yours? Your thoughts on this forum are at least as deranged as you claim mine to be; especially with you defending the viewpoint of the original poster at first. If I am wrong about the issue, why did you concede?

Quite honestly, if you DON'T see my logic here, then I'd like to know what information leads you to arrive at a different conclusion than I do.

[gnrm23]

welllllll...

the "old one" that albert einstein obliquely referred to on occasion (if he took it seriously) would have little in common with the typical theological presentations of yahweh, the father-god (or the son-god, or the holyspirit-god), or allah...
one often gets the impression the dr einstein was speaking allegorically when refering to "god" - although being quite seious when insisting on the need for "a religious sense" - but i suspect the einstein's god was closer to spinoza's or the late carl sagan's than to the god of abraham, isaac, jacob, jesus, muhammed, or others who speak out of the abrahamic tradition...
oh, & einstein was "jewish" enough to be a wanted man in hitler's germany - a lot of good german (& non-german) jews were driven out (or escaped) from europe during the 30s as hitler's plans were realizied...
~~~
most scientists & logicians would suggest that the "argument from design" in support of some "creationist"-type explanation of current biological diversity and "the origin of species" (as old charlie once wrote) is, well, specious (at best)... heh...

[cabdirazzaq]

Well if you want to get technical, I can hold a "-1 apple" in my hand by holding an apple made out of antimatter

I´ve read about this antimatter thing, quite interesting but totally insignificant right now and you are missing the point. If you hold an apple made out of antimatter you are still holding 1 apple! You cannot go beyond this, part the apple with a knife and you have two parts, count its molmass or its atoms if you so want, do what ever pleases you but you will still not go beneath 1, it ends there(You are taking it to deep man, my argument is at a very low level).

In response to (a), first off, scroll up, boy. You insulted ME first. The person who posted the original thread, was posting a thread that insulted people who don't believe in a God, or don't believe things a certain way. I told him off, which I have every right to do, considering it's quite insulting to me; it's more bullshit propaganda that is annoying, misleading, and circular

You may found it annoyin, misleading and circular but insulting?, I'm pretty sure the authors intention was not to insulte you, but your post however was clearly provoking by saying: "Anyone who believes in that bullshit is a f***ing idiot"
Now that is how you insult someone.

Then, you came in, and took it upon yourself to stand up for this person by INSULTING ME. I did absoutely nothing to provoke you, you just up and suggested that I was an idiot. For the record I did not insult you(even though your post was insulting), I said that "perhaps you are the duped one", I never called you an idiot as you claim, one can become duped and that would still not necessarily make him an idiot.
"I did absoutely nothing to provoke you" Yes you did by calling me a f***ing idiot.


I am speaking with all of the knowledge I have gathered during my short time on this planet.
Signs of scientific knowledge are very appearent in your posts and I´m not one who denies this but I do think that you entered this discussion with inadequate information, for instance when I wrote Allah you misinterpreted me and thought that I was speaking of another god, I think it is basic knowledge to know that muslims which make up 1/6 of the world population worship the same God as the children of Israel did.

So I suppose I must concede this to you; I mean that Einstein and Newton were ChristianBy the way, Einstein was a jew and not a christian, now this is also common knowledge.

[Hikaru Zero]

I´ve read about this antimatter thing, quite interesting but totally insignificant right now and you are missing the point. If you hold an apple made out of antimatter you are still holding 1 apple! You cannot go beyond this, part the apple with a knife and you have two parts, count its molmass or its atoms if you so want, do what ever pleases you but you will still not go beneath 1, it ends there(You are taking it to deep man, my argument is at a very low level).

No, see, the *absolute value* of the antimatter apple would be "one apple," but the actual value of an antimatter apple would be the equivalent of a negative apple. Yes, they are both still in the QUANTITY of 1, but you cannot say that they are EQUAL, as they are apples made of different types of matter (negative versus positive). It's like the saying, you can't compare apples to oranges; you can say you have 1 apple or 1 orange, but you lose precision if you just say you have "1." Likewise, you lose precision if you say "1 apple" instead of "1 matter apple" or "1 antimatter apple."

By your logic, if I hold an apple in my hand made out of matter, then it is absolutely no different if I hold an apple in my hand made out of antimatter. But hold one made of antimatter in reality, and you will soon discover that you were quite wrong about them being the same.

You think things end at 0 because you are failing to see that reality is much more precise than simple absolute values; there is a whole other spectrum which you need to discover before you can create equations that are both accurate and precise, and perhaps even more spectra beyond that which none of us thought existed; who knows? But it's not as simple as you are making it out to be.

You may found it annoyin, misleading and circular but insulting?, I'm pretty sure the authors intention was not to insulte you, but your post however was clearly provoking by saying: "Anyone who believes in that bullshit is a f***ing idiot"
Now that is how you insult someone.

And I meant to insult the poster too, that I won't hide. I think everyone who tries to convert people to their religion using propaganda that has flawed logic deserves to be insulted. And if I did the same, I would want someone to call ME an idiot.

And yeah, it's insulting, you're suggesting that I'm an idiot, and conveniently taking a list of highly reputable names and putting words into my mouth that *I* am calling *them* idiots. I'd darn well say that's an insult, or at least a feeble attempt at one.

"I did absoutely nothing to provoke you" Yes you did by calling me a f***ing idiot.

Perhaps you should post under the same name then, so we all know who is talking to whom? We could have made a lot of headway in this argument if you weren't busy shapechanging here (don't take that as an insult, I mean that in a joking light). =P

And if that is the case, yes, you are an idiot, *as you have already conceded about the circular logic posted in the original post*. And I could call you a slew of other names, for even posting that to begin with. It's rude, it's cocky, and it is, by your own admission, illogical. It warrants an insult.

Signs of scientific knowledge are very appearent in your posts and I´m not one who denies this but I do think that you entered this discussion with inadequate information, for instance when I wrote Allah you misinterpreted me and thought that I was speaking of another god, I think it is basic knowledge to know that muslims which make up 1/6 of the world population worship the same God as the children of Israel did.

Perhaps, but keep in mind, everyone's exacting interpretation of a deity is different. Because of that, there are many differences in the way people view "God" of the Bible, and "Allah" of the Koran (sp?). For crying out loud, Christians and Muslims have been fighting against eachother for ages, each in the name of "their" god, to convert the followers of the "other" god.

Ask a typical Christian if they believe that Allah is their god; I would bet you that they'd say, "no." I KNOW that they would say no, I (unfortunately) used to BE one, and they are quite ignorant.

So it is not hard to see, by any means, why "God" and "Allah" could be considered two separate and differing entities.

By the way, Einstein was a jew and not a christian, now this is also common knowledge.

My mistake. I bet he wasn't a fundamentalist, though. ;) I admit I never studied any of the people you listed closely.

[Kharakov]

Just want to clear things up here. Stop being stupid. Non sequiturs aside....

Calling someone who doesn't believe in God stupid is like calling a 6 year old who doesn't understand calculus stupid.

[Love_N_it]

*read the first two paragraphs of it*


Who has made it? Have you seen a design which hasn't a designer ?!

http://www.buenavistatownship.org/Photos/Dragons%20mouth%20orchid.jpg

http://emeagwali.com/photos/biafra/starving-children-of-biafran-war-july-12-1968-2.jpg


Do you think a God exist that's so powerfull that he is in control of ALL of this?
or that something is creating such different contrast of beauty and suffering to prove 'his' existence, or non-existence?

we were all initiated by a miracle of nature.
and a miracle of life is much easier to believe in than some type of super powerfull creator that's intentionally manipulating everything that takes place on this earth, will also be in control of my other forms of life.

Islam is right for trying to bring down, or out a God...
but they are as far as most of the other religions from being 'right' about God.

[Kharakov]

Just want to clear things up here. Stop being stupid. Non sequiturs aside....

Calling someone who doesn't believe in God stupid is like calling a 6 year old who doesn't understand calculus stupid.
Just wanted to apologize to whoever this comment offended. I was just trying to point out that it was stupid to distract from the main topic with non sequiturs such as Hikaru Zero was doing. Changing the focus of the argument doesn't solve or prove anything about the main topic.

Sometimes I assume people will understand what I am talking about without adequately explaining my comments (which is why my math teacher's used to yell at me- show your work).

I apologize once again,

Kharakov

(I thought that comment "Just who do you think you are" was hilarious, in light of my new sig)

[dutch_diciple]

In the start of this discussion, there was the argument something like 'If God created the universe then who created God'. So there's not really a starting point BUT then can't the same be said about evolution theory? What happened before the bug bang? and before that? And before that...etc.

[FreakerSoup]

Just a thought, but why, if you assume that the universe has a designer, do you believe that it's the one that you believe in? What makes you think you have any idea of how this "designer" works and who he/she/it is?

[Kharakov]

In the start of this discussion, there was the argument something like 'If God created the universe then who created God'. So there's not really a starting point BUT then can't the same be said about evolution theory? What happened before the bug bang? and before that? And before that...etc.
Out of infinite eternity (God) emerged a set of laws that gave rise to hope for eternal joy. I hope that the infinite has the awareness to preserve and teach our finite selves to live joyfully for eternity instead of being a blind set of physical laws.

[NatureFreak412]

In the start of this discussion, there was the argument something like 'If God created the universe then who created God'. So there's not really a starting point BUT then can't the same be said about evolution theory? What happened before the bug bang? and before that? And before that...etc.


ive always wondered that as well.

Say the big bang happened, what caused it, where did the particles come from? you cant make nothing from something, laws of physics, where did it all come from? was it just always there?

If it was just always there, you can use that logic, to say there is a being that is just always there, a creator.

So shooting someone down by saying who created God is bad logic, because you can be shot down by saying, where did your big bang come from...

[FreakerSoup]

The fact is we don't know what was going on before the big bang. Science has yet to go that far. That's a far cry from saying some dude who has existed forever created us from nothing, though.

[dutch_diciple]

still, whatever happened before the big bang according to scientists, you can ALWAYS ask 'what happened before that, and before that...etc.' there's no end to that.

[heshamzanto]

Why don't u all look at the site here
http://www.islamicity.com/science/
also here
i can fine answers to all ur wonders here

http://www.freeware-guide.com/html/hit.gif[/url][url="http://www.think-deeply.tk/"] (http://www.freeware-guide.com/html/hit.gif)


http://www.think-deeply.tk/

[gnrm23]

why don't u all look at the site here
www.carlsagan.com

(dr sagan was always one of my favorite agnostics ;) ...)
(& his view of the universe did not require a hypothesis named "god" - heh...)

of course, ymmv...

[Love_N_it]

Why don't u all look at the site here
http://www.islamicity.com/science/
also here
i can fine answers to all ur wonders here

http://www.freeware-guide.com/html/hit.gif


http://www.think-deeply.tk/

Every week the amount of children that starve to death, is higher than the current death toll caused by the Tsunami. We also have approximately 860 million (860,000,000) malnurished people in the same little world that we are living in. And altho' they are uncapable of providing basic nutrition for themselves or their families...
they are capable of reproduction.

"think deeply" about where that will put us in 20 years.

Does your system of beliefs justify this, or that?

a link or something would be nice.

[BlackGuardXIII]

Anyone who believes in that bullshit is a f***ing idiot. Hikaru Zero

don't beat around the bush, and use flowery euphemisms to try to soften the impactl. Just tell us how you really feel ..

[cabdirazzaq]

Does your system of beliefs justify this, or that?

First of all, Allah(may he be exalted) says:
44. Truly, Allah wrongs not mankind in aught; but mankind wrong themselves.

We have enough provision for to satisty every human being in the whole word but the problem is that we have divided it wrongfully, giving more to the rich and making the poor even more poor. And now for the question, who does our faith justify this? Among the 5 pillars of islam we have something which is called zakah which is important, important enough that the close companion Abu Bakar(the first chaliph) fought with the muslims who refused to pay it after the death of the prophet(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) Zakah is mentioned in numerous verses in the quran almost always along by the word salah(prayer) such as:

It is not Birr(righteousness) that you turn your faces towards east and (or) west; but Birr is the one who believes in Allah, the Last Day, the Angels, the Book, the Prophets and gives his wealth, in spite of love for it, to the kinsfolk, to the orphans, and to Al-Masakin (the poor), and to the wayfarer, and to those who ask, and to set servants free, performs As-Salah (Iqamat-As-Salah), and gives the Zakah, and who fulfill their covenant when they make it, and who are patient in extreme poverty and ailment (disease) and at the time of fighting (during the battles). Such are the people of the truth and they are Al-Muttaqun (the pious).)[2.177]

The zakah is obligatory upon the muslims and it is to be distributed among the poor - now the question is - does it work?
Ofcourse it does, the problem is that the muslim nation has avoided it recently, but this was not the case back in history, such as the era of Umar Abdul Aziz. During his time they sent the zakah to Yemen and North Africa to be given to the poor but suprisingly the money was returned to them this time sence they coulnd't find a single poor person to give it to. So he gave the order that they should use it to build streets instead.

[Kharakov]

Every week the amount of children that starve to death, is higher than the current death toll caused by the Tsunami. We also have approximately 860 million (860,000,000) malnurished people in the same little world that we are living in. And altho' they are uncapable of providing basic nutrition for themselves or their families...
they are capable of reproduction.
Think of this. God is just as hungry for your love and devotion as these people are for food. You who have food, wealth, and the good things of life who do not love God cause pain to God. Do you not think that God cries out in pain? Where is your conscience?

[FreakerSoup]

So if noone on earth believed in God, would he die?

[StonerBill]

in terms of the apple arguement,

anti matter does not equate to a negative value of matter. theyre two different things. if you have an anti apple, its not like having -1 apples. the only time that can happen is if you were tl;king about your assets, and you said -1 apple, youd be in debt of an apple. one anti-matter apple is just that. one of them. your arguement in this issue is that of someone in junior high, sorry to say

but that doesnt mean i support either arguement

the notion of creation is something that is only whitnessed in capable minds, and mainly only in humans. the only places that creation is seen in the whople universe outside of humans are thigns like bowerbirds or ants who design their surroundings

however, in all cases, it is a mind who is physically designing and creating objects out of resources.and in all cases, the creator is made of the same stuff as what theyre creating -matter.

so using this logic, while its theoretically possible that elements of nature were designed and created by a mind, the universe could merely have been shaped by and entity, not cxreated, and that entity would have to have been made of matter as well.

however its more likely that humans are the first thing in the known universe to have a concept (by the human brain) of 'creation'. also, creation has been somethign thats slowly advanced and designed through interaction of environment.

just because us humans can design things, does this mean that everything must have been designed by a mind like our own?

thats like saying that since we can die things with orange dye, then everything in nature must be caused by a dying process

the human concept of creation by assessing the environment and creating a solution using the human brain, is only one form of a change of environment, and nothing is created without a purpose. other thigns are shaped by weather, others from more complex, though still theoretical concepts such as evolution. along with this, the notion that god designed the universe infers that god had a reason. nothing is designed without a reason (in human terms and idea of design, which this thread is tlaking about) which would infer god had a purpose for everything he designed. now, evidently since god is omnipotent, and has no need for anything, the purpose of his creation MUST have been for his entertainment. it is the only reason someone would do anything wihtout a need. the purpose of the world is god's 'want'. therefor everything in the universe would have been designed with god's entertainment in mind. and so everythign bad that happens to humans would also be. if bad things were not to gods pleasing then he wouldnt have wanted them and so he wouldnt have created them in a way that would lead to them. he is after all omni-everything and can predict anything, and so he would have known what humans would do to themselves and their universe, and been able to act on them

so do you believe your grandmother's death by volcano was an acto of god's entertainment, and will?? what a nice, benevolant, caring god. oh wait thats right, after death, he commends all the people who believed in him, and sends all thsoe who dont to an eternity of pain. so hes an increidbly egotistical god, not a thoughtlessly cruel one!

[Kharakov]

So if noone on earth believed in God, would he die?
A) That's not the case
B) God can teach you of God's existence (that's what God does anyway)

[Kharakov]

so do you believe your grandmother's death by volcano was an acto of god's entertainment, and will?? what a nice, benevolant, caring god. oh wait thats right, after death, he commends all the people who believed in him, and sends all thsoe who dont to an eternity of pain. so hes an increidbly egotistical god, not a thoughtlessly cruel one!
You are thinking in the ways of men, not the ways of God.

[StonerBill]

Exactly, that was the situation i proposed following that god would think like man

but he wouldnt

however humans always refer to him in our terms. love, hate, good, evil, pleasing, displeasing, benevolant, mysterious, etc.

when in reality if there was a god, he could not be explained by human terms such as these.

religions should constantly be searching for what their own god REALLY is, but sadly that is a rare thing in religion, which is a set of ideas that rely on their unchangingness to claim truthfulness

I dont believe in 'god' but i think anyone who did should not be satisfied with any explination of god's working though humanistic terms. however this would be impractical, generally.

[Kharakov]

however humans always refer to him in our terms. love, hate, good, evil, pleasing, displeasing, benevolant, mysterious, etc.

when in reality if there was a god, he could not be explained by human terms such as these.
Actually God can be explained with these terms, however if we look at things from the natural standpoint (it is bad to die) we are not seeing that death is simply a step in a perfect life. God gives death as a gift to demonstrate God's power so that you do not constantly worry about stuff.

[TrippinBTM]

God gives death as a gift to demonstrate God's power so that you do not constantly worry about stuff.Damn. Mine's broken, can I borrow yours? No? Damn, are they all broken???

[Kharakov]

Damn. Mine's broken, can I borrow yours? No? Damn, are they all broken??? Nah, nothings broken, a lot of things are not completely finished (Look out for those people from finland though, they are really crazy).