Story of Adam & Eve [Archive]

Alsharad

05-28-2004, 02:28 PM

Why would God allow evil to exist? .. why would God allow People to choose evil?
Here is a short explanation:

"We need to ask and answer two questions. First, what is evil? It is that which is against God. It is anything morally bad or wrong. It is injurious, depraved, wicked. Some acceptable examples might be murder, rape, stealing, lying, and cheating. Second, if we want God to stop evil do we want Him to stop all evil or just some of it? In other words, if just some of it then why? If He were to stop only part of the evil, then we would still be asking the question, "Why is there evil in the world?".
Let's suppose that someone was about to commit murder. God would have to stop him, maybe whisper in his ear, or if that didn't work do something a little more drastic like have something fall on him, or stop his heart, or make his hands suddenly fall off. Anyway, God would have to do something.
Let's take it a step further. Suppose someone thought something evil. Then, of course, God would have to step in and prevent him from thinking anything bad at all, right? The end result would be that God could not allow anyone to think freely. Since everyone thinks and no one thinks only pure thoughts, God would be pretty busy and we wouldn't be able to think. Anyway, at what point do we stop, at the murder level, stealing level, lying level, or thinking level? If you want God to stop evil, you would have to be consistent and want Him to do it everywhere all the time, not just pick and choose. It wouldn't work.
Evil is in this world partly because we give it its place but ultimately because God, in His sovereignty, permits it and keeps it under His control."

Now, you might say, "Couldn't He just make us perfect and that way we wouldn't sin?" He could make us incapable of sinning or He could make us perfect, but perfection will always include the element of free will. A being that has no free will is not perfect; it lacks some sort of cognative ability. God created beings with free will. Free will allows us to act in a manner that is not always in accordance with God's nature. These non-accordance actions are, by definition, evil.

Why do you think God put the tree of life, (of all places on the planet), he chose to put it right there in the garden of eden. Then told them not to touch it.
He gave them a command that was to their benefit. It would be better if they had never known what good and evil were. But, as free agents, they could choose to disobey God and therefore sin. You might say that God was at fault because He put the tree there. This is inconsistent. God HAD to put the tree there and then command them to not eat of it. Why? Because God is wholly just. The option to diverge from God's will had to be possible or else it would be no better than having no free will at all. Let me clarify with a crude example:

Imagine as a child you are walking and you come to a pond. You mother has told you "do not get wet." Still you have two choices. You can swim across the pond or you can walk all the way around it. One method is obedient, the other is not.
Now imagine that you are walking in the desert and it hasn't rained in weeks. There are no ponds, rivers, etc. Now your mother's command "do not get wet" is superfluous. That you have the cognitive ability to choose has no bearing on the matter; you, in reality, have no choice because it is impossible for the situation where a choice would have to be made to occur.

If God created a world where people have the cognitive ability to sin, but then makes the world so that it is impossible to sin, that is as unjust as removing the cognitive ability to sin. God had to give Adam and Eve the tree AND the restriction in order for them to have free will. It had to be possible for Adam and Eve to sin or else God was being unjust. The serpent was the tempter because he lured Eve towards disobedience. God simply said "don't do it" and allowed them to choose either way.

Does that answer the question?

spinelli

05-28-2004, 05:29 PM

as if Im trying to comprehend something beyond human imagination.
These words, so very frequent in my thoughts. I once felt, were words of a cop out nature, an excuse for not finding an understandable answer. Yet, is it not an answer within itself for a human to actually comprehend that the nature of a question is beyond their comprehension.

I look at this bible story as a symbol of man's existence having more meaning to us symbolically even if it did actually occur.
It wasn't a great plan gone wrong, it was meant to happen.

Prior to eating the apple represents mans ability to live an illuminated, god-like existance. The possibility and capability man's free-will possesses
God placing the tree of life in our hands and asking us not to touch represents mans free-will to create his own existence. And the essence of faith required.
The snake represents the earthly influences that challenge our faith, that entice our senses and shift our focus to thoughts of our physical pleasures and our personal satisfaction.
Biting the apple and its great repercussion for man represents the connection each man's choice has on everything else on earth.
We are meant to bite the apple, expected to sin. By doing this we are suffering our own consequences. By suffering, man comes closer to God. By coming closer to God, man refrains from biting the apple.

Once again this story, depicts God as the one causing us pain. The old "well if God was real why is there war" or "if there is a God, then why would he take my loved one away from me"?
Lets not focus on our personal pain but look at the big picture, the long term affect, the eventual repercussions on all man. Like Jesus did!

weaselpop

05-28-2004, 05:58 PM

The snake had a motive - she was Lydia (i think that's the name) - Adams ex.

spinelli

05-28-2004, 09:16 PM

The plot thickens

Smudge

05-28-2004, 11:54 PM

The snake had a motive - she was Lydia (i think that's the name) - Adams ex.
Hey, come on...do we have to have a female serpent now? :D

It's bad enough the man blaming the woman for tempting him with the fruit,...(as they have done ever since :rolleyes: )

Brocktoon

05-29-2004, 12:09 AM

Ya.. I think she meant to reference Lilith?

Lilith was said to be Adams orginal 'first wife' who left him because he was too bossy.
In a bizarre twist of 'insinuated insult' - feminists thought it was cute to revere Lilith as a feminist icon.

(Lilith Fair taking her name)

Although it wasnt stated in the topic - I think the original poster is asking questions based on the traditional 'classic' Adam and Eve account as presented in Genesis.

strawpuppy

05-29-2004, 01:24 AM

Worth reading:

A Test of Time: The Bible - from Myth to History by David Rohl.

changed my whole perspective on everything I had been taught, and made me a different person.....

Brocktoon

05-29-2004, 02:31 AM

Worth reading:

A Test of Time: The Bible - from Myth to History by David Rohl.

changed my whole perspective on everything I had been taught, and made me a different person..... I guess Im a little surprised to hear that it had this kind of affect on you??

Read a lengthy in-depth article here --> http://debate.org.uk/topics/history/rohl-1.htm

One of my complaints about these critical analysis of biblical archaeology is that they count on the readers to have an over-rated expectation of the fame and signifigance the Jews had on the 'Global Culture' at that time.

Yes.. absolutely true that Moses and the Israelites have extremely high significance to Judeo Christian culture today!

But... keep in mind they were not very signifigant to the Egyptians, or any of the 'Big Players' of the day.

So when you find out there is not a whole lot of records of wandering former-slaves in the wilderness - dont be so 'shocked' about it.

strawpuppy

05-29-2004, 10:22 AM

It was one of a long list of books on the subject.
I have spent most of my cognitive life trying to find the truth, and have ended up an athiest. It was one of David's books that carried the proverberal straw.
I remember the moment well, I was waiting for thunder and lightening to descend from heaven the day I actually came to that conclusion. But what a relief to believe in humanity and not in the given gods.
If you have studied history in detail, then you will be aware of some amazing things that people who claim to be religious are totaly unaware of.
An open mind, and a never ending quest for the truth, brings up a whole new perspective on the topic, add what technology has taught us and it becomes even more fascinating.
Maybe there is hope for a new consensus.....When people stop trying to believe that only one way is right because their god told them (and their god's orders usually equate to a human representative).
As an athiest, I do not believe there is no god, just something bigger that It is too hard to explain here.
But whatever, I respect the faith of others, just not the intolerance of some, to believe that only one way is right, when it gets to brute fore, violence and hypocrisy......
S'cuse spelling...It's late and I've one too many glasses of red...Yum, Mnnnnnnnn.

Love, peace and harmony.....

Henry theroux (my hero)

Brocktoon

05-29-2004, 10:52 AM

Its fascinating reading your post becasue its almost a perfect 'mirrored' parallel to my own world view.

I would say an open mind, and a never ending quest for the truth, brings up a whole new perspective on the topic, add what technology has taught us and it becomes even more fascinating and ultimately to the understanding that Jesus is God and lives today.

Maybe because my 'quest' started with Bertrand Russell and then through Evolutionary thinking and eventually to Christian Apologetics.

I might be one of the rare Christians that came to faith via the sciences and the search for materialistic explanation for the Universe around us?

I doubt I will ever find David Rohl to 'change my life' because I dont find it very surprising or even conclusive.
Maybe your previous expectations were so grande that you could not help but be impressed?

Did you assume there was volumes of historical records of Kind David?
Had you believed that Moses and the Exodus was indeed as grande as portrayed in 'Block buster' films like 'The Ten Commandments'?

Im honestly asking because that would explain your impression of Rohl?

MarkN

05-29-2004, 05:00 PM

Ok....let me get this straight...
God made Good....and he made evil...before the garden existed.
humm...what was the original purpose of evil before man?
He made Adam & eve, everything was groovy. Adam was busy naming animals for god. ( how he did this with out free will in the 1st place is a mystery to me).
God told Adam not to eat of the fruit of the tree, because if you do you will die. But they didn't die. ( was this a blatant lie? or just a scare tatic?) Yes I suppose its supose to mean some "spirtual death". God did'nt tell eve this directly. But thats no excuse, Adam told her what God said.
Now the snake.
God made the snake more subtil (WHY?) than the other animals. He could talk even! The snake told eve, "go ahead and eat it, you won't die." ( the snake was right!, they didn't die). Also, it doesn't say anything about satan being in the snake.
So Eve gave adam some of the apple. What was Adam thinking?....he knew what God said about that fruit. Now remeber, this is BEFORE the free will thing. Or was it? He seems to have made a choice to take a bite. But when God found out .....he blamed it on Eve. She in turn, blamed the snake.
When God found out he said, " what have you done!!! I told you not to eat that stuff!!"
Then they start blaming each other. At this point if I was Adam, I would have said, "I told her what you said God, but look ....why did you have to put that tree here anyway? You didn't want us to bother it. Why didn't you put it on the other side of the planet? I think you wanted us to screw up. And whats with putting a talking snake in here thats smarter than us?"

"And the lord God said, Behold the man is become as one of us,"

Who is ..."US" ?
More than one God?
interesting.
God gets mad...throws them out of the garden, and puts curses on the whole bunch of them. (why get mad, he knew what was going to happen).
Of course, I'm looking at God as if he were a man. I have no choice, because I don't have the mind of a God......just a lowly man. It all seemed like a very mean spirted thing to do. If God was a person , I would tell him that.

I had to break out the old bible and re-read this story. (king James version).
Its a beutiful story.
But I think people over intellectualize it. And their arguements begain to sound like math problems. "if a train leaves chicago at 70 mph...."
Simplicity has more answers than trying to make it fit to suit your own beliefs.
Its a great story....that is designed to make you think.
and that is a good thing.

gnrm23

05-29-2004, 10:23 PM

the genesis story (stories)...
a strong part of jewish & chrisitian (as well as muslim) tradition (tho with different emphasis in each)(for some jewish mystical speculations on this stuff, see _the zohar_)...
as well as similar tales fo the beginning found in that geographical region going clear back to the gilgamesh epic...
and from within the jewish/christian/hellenistic mix that gave the world the gnostics comes another side of genesis story, with a different slant on the serpent, the jehovah-god, the struggle to bring light/wisdom into this dark world...
with archons, pleroma, sophia, sammael (as the blinded demi-urge & the klutzy artist who flubbed this world's work & was the gods of the jews & was not the power/spirit/father behind jesus' mission) & a cosmic battle for the fate of the universe...
~
oh, and check out _ the book of J _ at your local library for an interesting look at one thread (the "jawist" tradtion) within genesis...

Brocktoon

05-29-2004, 10:36 PM

MarkN,
Its going to be difficult to keep a discussion rolling here since you pretty much loaded that post with any and every possible question and point that can be made lol...

Can I just throw out a few quick replies throughout it....

Ok....let me get this straight...
God made Good....and he made evil...before the garden existed. humm...what was the original purpose of evil before man?
Its hard to say 'God made Evil' but he certainly made sure Lucifer had the ability to chooose evil.
Yes, this is before Adam.
The purpose?
Thats 'The' question I suppose but it certainly made sure Lucifer had that 'free will' to choose.

He made Adam & eve, everything was groovy. Adam was busy naming animals for god. ( how he did this with out free will in the 1st place is a mystery to me).
Adam had Free Will.
That Adam was naming animals implies he was created with a basic sense of knowledge.
Its signifigant because it assures us Adam wasn't an 'adult child' unaware of where he was or confused about objects and places.

God told Adam not to eat of the fruit of the tree, because if you do you will die. But they didn't die. ( was this a blatant lie? or just a scare tatic?) Yes I suppose its supose to mean some "spirtual death". God did'nt tell eve this directly. But thats no excuse, Adam told her what God said.
They died spiritually and they died physically.
They were given a true statement.

Now the snake.
God made the snake more subtil (WHY?) than the other animals. He could talk even! The snake told eve, "go ahead and eat it, you won't die." ( the snake was right!, they didn't die). Also, it doesn't say anything about satan being in the snake.
The Snake lied to them.
They did die.

Your right about one thing though... Genesis does not specifically say the Snake is really Satan.
Later teachings do but it seems The Author just lets us assume its Satan.

So Eve gave adam some of the apple. What was Adam thinking?....he knew what God said about that fruit. Now remeber, this is BEFORE the free will thing. Or was it?
Cant overemphasise this enough - they had free will.
The whole account is clearly demonstrating this all the way up to this point and even past it.
The fact they were choosing to do this on their own says it all.

He seems to have made a choice to take a bite. But when God found out .....he blamed it on Eve. She in turn, blamed the snake.
When God found out he said, " what have you done!!! I told you not to eat that stuff!!"
Then they start blaming each other. At this point if I was Adam, I would have said, "I told her what you said God, but look ....why did you have to put that tree here anyway? You didn't want us to bother it. Why didn't you put it on the other side of the planet? I think you wanted us to screw up. And whats with putting a talking snake in here thats smarter than us?"
Notice Adam tries to blame Eve.
God will not even listen to that.
Adam was in no way forced to 'go along' and made his decision himself.
Adam is just as guilty as Eve and both are guilty of blaming the Snake.

If the tree is on the otherside of the planet - then that would not give them much of a choice.

There is no reason to believe the Snake was smarter or more intelligent than Adam and/or Eve that I can tell?

"And the lord God said, Behold the man is become as one of us,"

Who is ..."US" ?
More than one God?
interesting.
This is just one of several passages where God refers to Himself as a 'Plural'
(I think its Elohim in Hebrew??)

This makes a lot of sense to Christians but I suspect it was mysterious to people before the Trinity.

God gets mad...throws them out of the garden, and puts curses on the whole bunch of them. (why get mad, he knew what was going to happen).
Of course, I'm looking at God as if he were a man. I have no choice, because I don't have the mind of a God......just a lowly man. It all seemed like a very mean spirted thing to do. If God was a person , I would tell him that.
There is a highly signifigant result of the original Sin that you have glossed right over...
It is one thing that Adam and Eve decided to believe the Serpent (who only gave them the idea)
More signifigant is that Adam and Eve decided to follow their own wills without consulting Gods will.
Then after all this they choose to hide from God.
They decide to go their own way.

So its much more than the one simple act of biting and swallowing the fruit.

You can make a good argument that Adam and Eve brought these consequences on themselves through their choices.
Not just some victims being cursed for no reason.

I had to break out the old bible and re-read this story. (king James version).
Its a beutiful story.
But I think people over intellectualize it. And their arguements begain to sound like math problems. "if a train leaves chicago at 70 mph...."
Simplicity has more answers than trying to make it fit to suit your own beliefs.
Its a great story....that is designed to make you think.
and that is a good thing.
I don't know if I would say its being broken down into math-problems but yes.. there is a certain amount of logical deductions and implications which can be found.

Some points of the story leave us with 'insinuations' and can't really be 'calculated' I agree.
Example - After having sinned, Adam and Eve 'realise' they are naked and then try to make clothes to hide their embarrassment.
So we can 'deduce' they were not aware of their own nakedness before but we can only speculate on what that really means.

It 'indicates' that in a perfect world people would not even notice how they appeared to others?
That Sinless People dont even notice others appearances?

So we can't really make a complete logical conclusion on that.
We are left to get the 'feeling' for the situation.

I think we can strongly agree on one thing for sure - its much more than just an amusing 'hollywood' story or 'action scene'.
It does make us think about the very nature of humanity and free will, truth and how relevant our own 'modern day' behavior can be found in that one original situation.

MarkN

05-30-2004, 03:43 AM

[QUOTE=Brocktoon]
Its hard to say 'God made Evil' but he certainly made sure Lucifer had the ability to chooose evil.
Yes, this is before Adam.
The purpose?
Thats 'The' question I suppose but it certainly made sure Lucifer had that 'free will' to choose.
Sure he made evil....God made everything....right? Evil didn't just manifest itself out of the void. Well, I supose you could dream up dark enity existed along with God. But thats just trying to avoid saying the obiovus. If God is the ONE true power of the universe. The creator of heaven & earth, than yes, he created evil.

They died spiritually and they died physically.
They were given a true statement.
The Snake lied to them.
They did die.

They died physically, years later.

Your right about one thing though... Genesis does not specifically say the Snake is really Satan.
Later teachings do but it seems The Author just lets us assume its Satan.

why would I assume that?

If the tree is on the otherside of the planet - then that would not give them much of a choice.AH!!!....my whole point. Why even put a choice in front of them?? What is the purpose of the choice? If every thing was fine, why and go and put a tree of knowege there? And a "evil" snake to temp them?

There is no reason to believe the Snake was smarter or more intelligent than Adam and/or Eve that I can tell?Well the snake was smart enough to formulate an idea in his head and to go a step further, destinguised truth from non-truth and created a lie to tell them. Not to mention....he could talk. Not bad for a reptile with the brain the size of a acorn.

This is just one of several passages where God refers to Himself as a 'Plural'
(I think its Elohim in Hebrew??)
This makes a lot of sense to Christians but I suspect it was mysterious to people before the Trinity.
Doesn't make any sense to me....before or after the trinity.

There is a highly signifigant result of the original Sin that you have glossed right over...
It is one thing that Adam and Eve decided to believe the Serpent (who only gave them the idea)
More signifigant is that Adam and Eve decided to follow their own wills without consulting Gods will.
I think God did a curell thing. Thats hard to say if you are a christian. But truth is truth.
I have to give credit where credit is due. God put the tree there. He put the snake there. He created both...the tree, and the snake. If....imagine....that he had put the tree ....let's say in Alaska....and Adam & Eve are at the meating point of the tigirus & ephraties rivers....The whole expulsion from the garden,....the puting curses on them, would have never happened. Adam & Eve would have remained immortal. God created this whole elabrabate senero himself. Why?
My therory is that so Adam & Eve could start the begaining of mankind. It just seem such a long dramatic painful way to go about it.:)

Smudge

05-30-2004, 04:06 AM

strawpuppy

05-30-2004, 07:10 AM

OK time for you to shoot me down in flames.

....it is a personal quest, and was never intended to back up a debate....

AND IT AINT OVER YET........!

The story I have in my head so far, is that Moses wrote the bible. He was educated in Pharaoh's palace as a child and was probably influenced from an older piece of writing that came out of Iraq possibly up to 2000 years earlier....(I have forgotten the name of these tablets/tablet but it is qiute famous...also there are supposed to be many comparisons bewtween that and Moses bible, including a whole set of verse that is practically identical).

Moses identified this writing with his own roots (Abraham/Noah ?) and so wrote the bible in an effort to unite his people, (living under harsh conditions at the time)..(try also looking at who was king at the time of the Jews return from Babylon, and where that king found the ancient writings/laws of Israel).

Moses however seems to have left out the beginning part of the tablets he learned from, mainly that a female goddess created man from her rib because she had accidently poisoned him and he was dying..?

An interesting thing thrown up was that Jehovah could possibly have been a minor god, for after the flood, men were so angry with the gods (or scared of them) that a minor god (Jehovah, was adopted as the main one)....
However, before the tablets Moses studied from were written, there was already another civilization that we can examine...Catalhoyuk:

http://www.archaeology.org/9803/abstracts/catal.html

http://www.focusmm.com/civcty/cathyk00.htm

http://www.allaboutturkey.com/catalhoyuk.htm

http://smm.org/catal/top.php

It appears that...(along with the other "mother goddess" statues found around the neolithic globe)....this very large lady played a big part in people's lives in Catalhoyuk.

Now I am not a femminist or anything, but pre flood folks had a thing about bulls and large ladies....?

Cutting it short: (Cause it's past 6pm and I've already started my first glass of "unwinding" red wine)....

The story in my head so far is:

WE are GOD because WE come from a unified consciousness...space, time, universe, universes, everything....give that consciousness a name and I call it GOD...a sum of all our consciousness.....Howard Bloom:

http://www.wileyeurope.com/WileyCDA/WileyTitle/productCd-0471295841%2CdescCd-reviews.html

http://www.bookworld.com/lucifer/

http://www.bigbangtango.org/website/index.htm

If the planet has been around for a couple of billion years, then it is likely that a civilization exsisted that may have had longer to evolve than us...... Global warming and Ice ages:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0318/p13s01-sten.htm

http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2003/04.24/01-weather.html

http://www.whoi.edu/institutes/occi/currenttopics/ct_abruptclimate.htm

If the "Giants of Old":

http://www.ldolphin.org/nephilim.html

are the remnants of an earlier advanced civilization who are now "locked in chains"/"prison" under the earth...............Then maybe the strange phenomina that occurs in this planet is comming from the only place on earth that has never reallysuffered from an ice age...BRAZIL.....where there is a long and ancient lore of people living under the earth:

http://www.holloworbs.com/underground_brazil.htm

Back to the begining:

Alas, I spent too much time trying to analyze the "psycho babble" in Adam and Eve's predicament. So I decided to try and find the begining of man.....
Which led me through many interesting "mind voyages"..and led me to the above conclusion....BUT, I believe that Jesus was the greatest man who ever lived...AND he may possibly be the SON of GOD, our son, who we made, to save ourselves, because we LOVE......

Now shoot me....

PS...I did use a lot of seriously academic books in my research..U Know..Cambridge and Oxford university presses types, also, I try to get what the "brains" think on the topics, IE; Harvard, Smithsonian, Official weather, archeaology ect: et al.........

Brocktoon

05-30-2004, 08:04 AM

Interesting how Adam blamed God as well...as people have done ever since..

''The woman you put here with me...''

12 The man said, "The woman you put here with me-she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it." (Genesis 3) http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?passage=GEN+3&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on
Good Call Smudge. funny but I never noticed he blamed God too.

MarkN and Strawpuppy.... I gotta tell ya.. you guys are getting either way too obscure or obtuse for my mind now lol ;)

Its late and I took and Advil so I cant even begin to start a reply to either of those posts hehe.

MarkN

05-31-2004, 06:01 AM

That's fasinating stuff Straw.

Toon,
Relax, its just that God given imagination streching some.

-GOD-

06-01-2004, 06:14 PM

Don't get me wrong here.

I love it when humans make a movie of my story but I just wish that the actors who played Adam and Eve didn't have a navel.

Chodpa

06-01-2004, 07:00 PM

The Garden of Eden story, because it has no definite answer is therefore a pointless conundrum. If one enjoys mind games then they should enjoy this fable as well. Otherwise the story should be viewed as a tantric message which talks about kundalini and the way of raising their consciousness. A good place for getting to the meat of the matter is www.gnosis.org (http://www.gnosis.org)

Chodpa

06-01-2004, 07:04 PM

Also, it's quite certain that the Tree of Life is the Eleocarpus ganitrum species otherwise known as the Rudraksha or Blue Quandong. It's also known as the Vedic Kalpa Vriksha or wish fullfilling tree. Check into it.

Brocktoon

06-01-2004, 10:03 PM

Hi Chodpa. I checked into it and it turns out you are silly.

But seriously for a minute. There is no reason to believe it was this plant you are talking about , other than, because it was a suggestion someone made.

As to the account being a 'conundrum' I dont know what to tell you?
It is pretty much self-explanatory.
There really isn't a lot of 'mystery' to what it presents.

Obviously there are lots of unanswered question or detail that were left out.
Thats ok.
We don't necessarily need to know all the specifics, like - what kind of fruit it was or if they had navels etc.

Moonjava

06-02-2004, 02:06 AM

God made the 'snake.'

Well He created the angels.

One third rebelled, (as with any loving Father, as Brocktoon said, He gave them free will also)... included in those angels that rebelled was Lucifer...who, in pride, (the most hidden insiduous sin), wanted to make himself like God.

Lucifer/satan was in that serpent....don't know how- but I do know that evil spirits can enter into animals.

Yes, God doesn't want to force us to love, and therefore obey him.
If we have kids we can work out why...
So, He, God, did take a ''risk'' when He created humans....
But Love does take risks...risks being hurt and rejected itself...
Well actually, Satan can only do what God allows him to do. God allowed him to tempt Eve to test man. Not only to test him, but I believe he knew what would happen once Eve was tempted. He knew Eve would give in to the fruit, and therefore it was all in God's plan. I like to think of the game Sim City when questions like these arise. We are like God's very own Sim City. I have faith that some day we will know answers to these questions that rack our brains, but for now we are just supposed to love Him and enjoy life.
Peace,
Moonjava

strawpuppy

06-02-2004, 07:54 AM

Thanks for the gnostic link.....I'm listening to the lecture on "The Matrix" right now....(It gets interesting around 20 minutes into the lecture:)

Here's a few I gathered this evening that you may, or may not, find interesting...

Note: I am writing this from a severe learning curve brought about by my leaving my cosy UK (have not travelled extensively for 20 years...busy raising off spring and coping with the little details of life....) new abode in the high desert plains of a minute town in the USA.....

http://www.atlan.org/new/

http://www.activemind.com/Mysterious/Topics/Atlantis/

Thanks again...

MarkN...Thanks for not shooting me down in flames...
Good luck and I hope you enjoy your quest.

Strawpuppy

Peace harmony and love...

TheHammerSpeaks

06-07-2004, 12:31 AM

Why do you think God put the tree of life, (of all places on the planet), he chose to put it right there in the garden of eden. Then told them not to touch it.

The more perturbing question, I believe, is, "How could God have commanded them if they did not yet possess knowledge of good and evil, given by the tree?" The nature of this problem lies in the distinction between the law of man and the law of God and the relationship between man and God, and man and the rest of God's creation.

God's Will is insubordinate to His Reason, or, rather, both are perfect. God's Will, since it is infinite, dictates the actions of all of His creation. Even if God were to not will an event, it would be God's choice (choice being an act of will) not to will it; and, because in God's perfect reason, all contradiction is resolved and all things are possible, God's action (or inaction) is always good, even when it may not appear so to me.

However, there is one being in God's creation which God chose (of His Own Will) to have a will of his own - man. Everything about man is weak, not including the sole exception of his faith (and, even, in rare specimens, his love). God, appearing to Adam, commanded him not to eat from the forbidden tree. Through such revelation, Adam understood, as it was the Will of God. But Eve, driven by her own desire for power, perhaps the most human sin, certainly the most natural, ate of the tree and understood.

Understood what? Nothing at all, I argue. Rather, it was only an illusion of understand, behind which hid pride. It was the knowledge of universals, the truth that knowledge alone can unlock their mystery, and the truth that we are the keepers, the yardsticks, of knowledge. Perhaps they already understood universals; but, upon tasting of the tree, it was the belief that universals are superior to the Will of God, the belief that the reason of man is superior to His that spawned the two aforementioned truths. I maintain that these truths are false and that their source is pride, a sin far more diabolic than the sin of Eve. Her sin was acting upon the desire to match the Power of God; the sin of pride is the sin of believing we already match His Power. In this way, it is terrible and pitiful.

Before the eating of the fruit, it was surely a simple thing to know God’s Will, simpler still to obey It! Now, there is so much confusion. But I maintain that there is something noble in our struggle, that through each struggle we can remain faithful, and our faith grows more unshakable at the end of every conflict. This is a gift granted to us by birthright, which Adam did not receive his first night in the garden, but cursed many nights after. Remember, God could have obliterated Adam, Eve, and the human race with them, which would have been a most just and righteous punishment, but He chose not to, and thus not to was just.

This is a fitting interpretation of the allegory.

Smudge

06-07-2004, 12:40 AM

WHAT???

em...God does not over complicate...He gives His Spirit to help childlike ones to understand...

Now the LORD God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed. 9 And the LORD God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground-trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die." (spiritually) (Gen. 1)

(Gen. 2) 1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"
2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "
4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman :(

TheHammerSpeaks

06-07-2004, 01:42 AM

WHAT???

em...God does not over complicate...He gives His Spirit to help childlike ones to understand...No, God does not overcomplicate. In God, all things are understood; I believe this to be true. But to my feeble mind, He is a mystery and I cannot make sense of His creation, including myself. Children never question their faith precisely because they have never experienced anything challenging to it (or because they do not understand the relationship of the challenge to faith). I make it a point not simply to passively wait in patience for a crisis of faith to come along. I make it a point to look for one, to search them all out. This is the task of the faithful - to believe in the absurd. Do you honestly never question your faith? To never do so seems such an act of perfection that it is not fitting of a human being.

My interpretation is only one of many possible interpretations. The allegory is vague for this very reason, improbable so that each generation (each individual, as well) can relate its own experiences to it. Scripture must be understood in its historical context, but allegory possesses the unique ability to transcend context. And so, I have arrived at a conclusion that crushes a stumbling block of faith through ignorance, and, in this way, have strengthened my faith through virtue of the absurd.

Faith is not simply a gift from God. It is that, but it is much more. It is a conscious act of will to believe what is ridiculous (and you cannot, in honesty, tell me that faith has not been ridiculed). I do believe that it is possible for God to forcibly put faith in Him into one who has done nothing to earn it, but I also believe that beings whom God favours so greatly are rare. Indeed, I also question if they are so greatly favoured. God's love of us is proved in our struggle because one day He may set before us a trial which only a person of great faith can accomplish, if any of us be so blessed to be tried as such.

Smudge

06-07-2004, 01:46 AM

No, God does not overcomplicate. In God, all things are understood; I believe this to be true. But to my feeble mind, He is a mystery and I cannot make sense of His creation,
why do you need to ''make sense'' of His creation?
We just need to accept (humbly) that He is Creator (Father), and we are the created (children).
Jesus is the link...if you don't want, or won't bow the knee to, Jesus, then I can understand your problem.

TheHammerSpeaks

06-07-2004, 03:53 AM

why do you need to ''make sense'' of His creation?
Because I want to know, in the most intimate sense of the word, Him, Whom I worship. Is that unreasonable? But I maintain that such knowledge is possible through revelation, no matter how impossible it may seem, because in God all things are possible.

We just need to accept (humbly) that He is Creator (Father), and we are the created (children).
But our relationship to God is far more complex than that. God is subject and His creation is object; however, we are also subjects which can view that creation. God is infinite and we are finite, but Schopenhaur proved, "The world is my idea," and Kierkegaard wrote likewise, "Truth is subjectivity." If this is so, then would this not require that our selves are, in some way, infinite? If we are temporal, then how is it we can be faithful; it was Nietzsche who wrote that men are the only beings "who can make promises," and Marcel who realised the full significance of Nietzsche's insight. If we are just creation, then why is faith an act of our own will and the act of a Will stronger than our own?

All of these paradoxes defy reason, and they are all present within man. But, to have faith is to be faithful, faithful to the absurd, the unknown, God. It is to have faith that in Him these paradoxes are dissolved, and to believe against reason that such paradoxes may be dissolved within myself, through Him and in Him.

Jesus is the link...if you don't want, or won't bow the knee to, Jesus, then I can understand your problem.
Christ, because of His very nature, is the only Being where the paradoxes of man have been solved (though perhaps not dissolved, as in the Father). He, to me, is the greatest paradox of all, for, while I can understand the paradoxes within me, I cannot understand them solved. Christ Himself is the greatest Paradox, the greatest Mystery, the greatest Miracle.

MarkN

06-07-2004, 04:09 PM

Uh...I find it very compicated. The story of adam & eve. The key word here is "story". ok....here is how I view it. The bible (old and new testaments) were written by MAN. I hope we can agree on that. This "story" of creation was not burned into a mountain, or quoted from a burning bush. Yes,yes I hear you. "but it was "divine thought" that was given to the writer. A very common claim. Their are people straping themselfs with bombs and walking in to public places that think they have that "divine thought". MAN ( the writer) in his wickedness is incapable of comprehending divine thought. He is not God. Only Jesus (in the bible) could express divine thought. I see the bible as a guide book for living. A basic idea of right & wroung. It is through these parables or storys that these morals are reveled. I don't take everything in the bible, word for word as fact. As far as creation, I "lean" more towards darwin's idea. The reason I say "lean", is because I am just a man. I can admit that I don't know. I can keep an open mind without tying myself to a set of beliefs that was created by MAN. (both darwin & bibical scribes). AH!! your thinking I have no "faith". I have great faith in the Mystery of it all.

The orginal question was " why of all places on the planet, did God put the tree of life in the garden.?"
Is God the tempter?
What is the "story" suppose to teach us?
Forget everything you "think" you know about the Bible. Try reading it as you would a novel. Without all the baggage of things you have learned in later verses in the bible. For example, Why assume that satan was in the Snake. There is no mention of satan, wars in heaven, free will, any of those ideas .
It starts, "In the begining........"

Brocktoon

06-08-2004, 09:22 AM

For clarification purposes..

The alleged 'key-word' being 'Story' is made by readers not by the author of Genesis or expressed by the pages.

Genesis never claims to be a 'story', allegory or poem.
You can discover this for yourselves by reading it.

Its also worth mentioning that Jesus refers to same events 'as fact' and never intimates Genesis as a 'story'.

Yes, you certainly can suppose it is.
I just wanted it to be clear that this is a readers judgement and not in the text itself.

HuckFinn

06-08-2004, 05:41 PM

Brocktoon,

I believe that Genesis is factual, but not necessarily literal in every detail. I think the essential truths are the ex-nihilo creation of the universe and the historical fall of man. I'm not convinced that the "days" of creation, the trees of life and knowledge, or the talking serpent must be taken literally.

weaselpop

06-25-2004, 06:01 PM

Where does Lucifer come into the bible? I mean the old testament; which book and stuff.

Kharakov

06-25-2004, 07:27 PM

Where does Lucifer come into the bible? I mean the old testament; which book and stuff.
Lucifur applys to all pussy. Its about gods love which you wont recieve. The light bringer- wanna fuck? Damn if God aint the hottest bitch i ever did see.

Vae Victus

06-25-2004, 08:45 PM

Black is white, up is down, ignorance is strength, war is peace, hate is love. You're just supposed to accept it.

What I really want to know is, Why did God create atheists? Or I guess we just chose to be atheists on our own... and therefore... we're stronger than God! Let's get him!

---Ack... he heard me... *gasp* choking me... *wheeze* very powerful... hands... that God fellow...

Nah, I'm just joking. He's not really choking me. However! I do wish to pose the following challenge:

I, Vae Victus, hereby challenge God to a no-moves-barred break-dancing tournament. If he declines, or refuses to show up, let it be known throughout the land that I shall be considered the Christians' new master and owner.

gnrm23

06-25-2004, 10:08 PM

hmmmm...
maybe god should challenge you to a universe-creating contest...
heh...

Vae Victus

06-26-2004, 06:24 AM

I gracefully accept.

Alsharad

06-27-2004, 02:04 PM

A couple of things.

Where does Lucifer come into the bible? I mean the old testament; which book and stuff.I believe that the first mention of him as Satan is in Job 1:6.

The orginal question was " why of all places on the planet, did God put the tree of life in the garden.?"
Is God the tempter?
What is the "story" suppose to teach us?
Forget everything you "think" you know about the Bible. Try reading it as you would a novel. Without all the baggage of things you have learned in later verses in the bible.
The Tree of Life? Dunno. So that man would be immortal? I think you mean the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. That I can answer.

Free will.

Here's the idea. If you force or coerce someone into loving you, is it really love? Love, honor, respect, etc. must be freely given. So, God wants us to love him of our own free will. If there was no option to disobey God, then there really is no free will. For example, if you are locked bank vault, you do not have the option to leave. You might not want to leave or you might be scrambling at the walls trying to get out, but you have no choice. You have to stay put. However, if the vault door is wide open, only then do you have a choice. So in essence the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil could have been any tree in the garden. I do not think it was some mystical tree that imparted knowledge. The knowledge came when Adam and Eve recognized that they could (and did) disobey God.

Everything aside, no God is not the tempter. God did not entice them to eat of the tree. He simply put it there and said "leave it alone." If anything, He did as much as He could to prevent it (His justness would prevent Him from destroying Adam for no reason and it would prevent Him from removing the Tree as that would, in effect, remove Adam's free will). He told them "if you eat, you will die."

Once you realize that God's justness is as great and as infinite as His mercy and His love, you will have a much better understanding of Him.

Also, reading the Bible like a novel is a VERY BAD idea. It was not meant to be read that way nor does it actually read that way. If you want to read Genesis accurately, then you must read it for what it is - a historical narrative depicting factual events. That is what it claims to be. You wouldn't read a Terry Pratchet Discworld novel as a historical narrative or a biography, would you? Pratchett's Discworld books are meant to be read as humorous fantasy and it is in that light that we read them. Genesis is written as literal history with specific historical claims (some verifiable, others not). You have to read it in context (i.e. as a part of a larger work - the Pentateuch) or you are simply reading it as you want to see it (not what the author wants you to) which could easily be a misinterpretation of the text.

Vae Victus

06-27-2004, 04:47 PM

Alsharad, you paint a vivid picture. From what I gather, this God fellow is some insecure pimp who doesn't want anyone else to be happy, correct?

"Forget the happiness of all my creatures. I would rather have a handful blindly worship me, so the rest may torture, rape, and murder one another--also the ones who worship me may torture, rape, and murder one another." If this is "justice" and "love," I believe I may have never once in my life heard either word in the proper context up until this very moment.

Kharakov

06-27-2004, 05:42 PM

Everything aside, no God is not the tempter. God did not entice them to eat of the tree. He simply put it there and said "leave it alone." If anything, He did as much as He could to prevent it (His justness would prevent Him from destroying Adam for no reason and it would prevent Him from removing the Tree as that would, in effect, remove Adam's free will). He told them "if you eat, you will die."
God is so tempting to me... mmmmmhhhh, hot God essence.... mmmmhhh..

Also, reading the Bible like a novel is a VERY BAD idea. It was not meant to be read that way nor does it actually read that way. If you want to read Genesis accurately, then you must read it for what it is - a historical narrative depicting factual events. That is what it claims to be. You wouldn't read a Terry Pratchet Discworld novel as a historical narrative or a biography, would you? Pratchett's Discworld books are meant to be read as humorous fantasy and it is in that light that we read them. Genesis is written as literal history with specific historical claims (some verifiable, others not). You have to read it in context (i.e. as a part of a larger work - the Pentateuch) or you are simply reading it as you want to see it (not what the author wants you to) which could easily be a misinterpretation of the text.Lemme lay a parable on you borther.. (intentional sp)...

My mom, who loves me to death (666 spells mom on your phone--- just on your phone, not mine, satan spelled mom with 666 on your phone!!! trust me!!!) told me that everyone only ate the white stuff on the inside of the orange when i was a little kid, and that we were the only people in the world who knew that you ate the inside inside of the orange.

Alsharad

06-28-2004, 01:24 PM

Alsharad, you paint a vivid picture. From what I gather, this God fellow is some insecure pimp who doesn't want anyone else to be happy, correct?
How does it follow that He is insecure? God doesn't need us to be happy. He didn't make humanity because He was lonely, or because He needed us. He made us for our happiness.

"Forget the happiness of all my creatures. I would rather have a handful blindly worship me, so the rest may torture, rape, and murder one another--also the ones who worship me may torture, rape, and murder one another." If this is "justice" and "love," I believe I may have never once in my life heard either word in the proper context up until this very moment.
Where does God say that? He wants us to all be happy and to go to heaven for eternity. However, that would be unjust. That would mean that no matter what you did on this world, we would go to heaven. Hitler, Dahmer, Gacey, Stalin, Lenin, murders, rapists, torturers, etc... all would meet you in heaven. Even those people who hate God (and they are out there) would be dragged into His presence forever if everyone goes to heaven. There would be no justice in that. If an you have two options, but both options lead to the exact same result, do you really have an option? There is no free will if everyone goes to heaven.

Justice demands that lawbreakers be punished and that the innocent be spared. Love demands mercy. God gave us two choices - one with good consequences, one with bad. We chose poorly. God's love stepped in and provided a way for us to escape punishment and return to communion with Him in the person of Jesus Christ. So again, we have another choice. It's all about free will.

MarkN

06-28-2004, 03:11 PM

A couple of things.
So in essence the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil could have been any tree in the garden. I do not think it was some mystical tree that imparted knowledge. The knowledge came when Adam and Eve recognized that they could (and did) disobey God.

Everything aside, no God is not the tempter. God did not entice them to eat of the tree. He simply put it there and said "leave it alone." If anything, He did as much as He could to prevent it (His justness would prevent Him from destroying Adam for no reason and it would prevent Him from removing the Tree as that would, in effect, remove Adam's free will). He told them "if you eat, you will die."=QUOTE]what would a child do if you left him in a room with candy?? You told him not to touch it. Be honest. Thats right, it is natural to want to touch the untouchable. " he did as much to prevent it." ?? Not really....not puting it there would be more like it. Oh, but that would mess up this ..."free will thing".

[/QUOTE= Once you realize that God's justness is as great and as infinite as His mercy and His love, you will have a much better understanding of Him.=QUOTE]thats right, speak to us as if we are misguided children, as if you actual understand it all. Not really. I do believe you believe your own retoric though.

[/QUOTE= Also, reading the Bible like a novel is a VERY BAD idea. It was not meant to be read that way nor does it actually read that way. If you want to read Genesis accurately, then you must read it for what it is - a historical narrative depicting factual events. That is what it claims to be. You wouldn't read a Terry Pratchet Discworld novel as a historical narrative or a biography, would you? Pratchett's Discworld books are meant to be read as humorous fantasy and it is in that light that we read them. Genesis is written as literal history with specific historical claims (some verifiable, others not). You have to read it in context (i.e. as a part of a larger work - the Pentateuch) or you are simply reading it as you want to see it (not what the author wants you to) which could easily be a misinterpretation of the text."Genesis is written as literal history with specific historical claims???"
you have to be kidding.
OK...lets take it as a "history book". Genesis chapter 1, verse 26-28. To sum it up, He created man in his own image. Both male and female. And told them to " be fruitful and multiply". Ok...is that "he him...that was male & female created the them", is that one person? male & female in one person? OK i'll buy that. But how do you be fruitful & multiply with your self? Ok...there were 2. Male & female. This is the 6th day mind you.

CHAPTER 2 verse 3.......the 7th day.
This is where it gets funky
CHAPTER 2 verse 7.......he makes Adam
Is that on sunday? hummm, maybe monday.
and by the way, ....what happened to the man & woman he created on the 6th day? The ones that are being fruitful & multiplying? Are those the mythical people from the land of Nod? Who knows? Did they get a try with the tree of knowege of good & evil too?
CHAPTER 2 verse 18......God made woman.......again?

History follows a time line. History is consistant with that timeline. Not vague, choppy, and inconsistant like Genisis.
Fantasy is inconsistant, purposely vague. I don't know what "disic world " is, but I do know the differance between real history, and fantasy.
nice try though.

Alsharad

06-28-2004, 04:21 PM

what would a child do if you left him in a room with candy?? You told him not to touch it. Be honest. Thats right, it is natural to want to touch the untouchable.
That is a crude and inaccurate analogy that doesn't represent the situation at all. Let's change it up a bit.

Take an adult (Adam was an adult not just physically, but emotionally and mentally as well) and put them in a room full of thousands of different types of candy. Tell him that he can eat anything in the room except the one candy that is poisonous and will kill him. Then point out the poisonous candy and show him exactly where it is (so he won't eat it on accident). Now, what would he do? Most people would just not eat the poisonous candy, but then again, some would because they just want to make sure it is poisonous. People are silly that way.

Even then the analogy is flawed because humans now have a tendency to disobey (the sin nature)... something Adam and Eve did not have.

thats right, speak to us as if we are misguided children, as if you actual understand it all. Not really. I do believe you believe your own retoric though.
I don't understand it all, nor do I claim to. Most people, however, forget that God is just. He MUST do what is fair. Always. If you break the law, He is obligated to punish you as a matter of His own integrity. Most people do not understand this. I did not mean to sound condescending - my apologies - but most people have this idea that because God is love that He is wrong to punish us or that He (in this case) rigged it so that we couldn't pass the test. That is just not the case. He is not responsible for us failing the test. Let's try this analogy:

A teacher gives a test to his class. The test is fair and covers material that was discussed in length in class and in the textbooks. The teacher prepared the class as best he could for the test. Bobby has studied hard and scores well. Billy, however, never read the text and skipped class often. He fails the exam miserably. Is it the teacher's fault at all that Billy failed? Is the teacher to blame based soley on the fact that he gave a test at all? If Billy is not at fault because the teacher gave the test, then should Bobby recieve any accolades or scholarships due to his score? After all, if the teacher hadn't given the test, Bobby would have no score. So shouldn't the teacher recieve the credit over Bobby?

You see the problem with thinking that God is at fault for 'tempting' us? God set up a test and Adam and Eve failed. The test was fair. They knew what they were doing and willfully disobeyed God.

History follows a time line. History is consistant with that timeline. Not vague, choppy, and inconsistant like Genisis.
Fantasy is inconsistant, purposely vague. I don't know what "disic world " is, but I do know the differance between real history, and fantasy.
First, Genesis 2 is a recap. Specifically, it details what happened on the 6th day. It states this plainly in verse 4 - "This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made earth and heaven".

Second, how is it vague? How is it choppy? How is it inconsistent?

Three, how do you know fact from fiction? If I say that I have been to the moon, is that fact or fiction? And no, fantasy is not inconsistent with itself. Maybe with the real world, but not with itself. Just to make sure we are on the same page, what do you mean by 'inconsistent'? I take it to mean a violation of the law of non-contradiction. Is that what you mean?

MarkN

06-28-2004, 06:03 PM

oh. you didn't like my anlogy.....so you made up your own to suit your beliefs. typical
I used that anlogy for a reason. This was the first man, he hadn't been around the block. Because there was no block. He was mature emotional, phycially in every way? Experence is the only teacher of maturity. ( you will find this out ....in time). OK...he has no memory because .....he has no experence. But God had majiclly gave him all this "maturity and emotions....automaticly huh? I must have skiped that verse. Where does it say that? (note: it is important not to make up your own version of the scripture to suit your belief). So, I find he is very child like. I don't buy the "instant mature man" thing. It never says that. I think...according to the 'story' that adam was pretty low on the IQ scale, Maybe even in the single digits. No ....experence....no memory...how smart can you be?? Maybe a 3 yr old child? That is the reason for my anlogy.
Now for this 'free will thing'.
let's see, he gave adam a job....take care of the animals, take care of the crops. You have power over all them and the fish too. Did we lose this "power' somehow? I don't have power over any animals ....or plants....or people. Fish, great white sharks and everything huh? nope.
So, I hear God giving alot of orders...do this do that ....don't touch this. But, Adam has free will right? Or was that the curse he put on adam for disobedience? Let's asume that he was 'born' with free will, along with that maturity thing. I try to put myself in Adams place. "take care of my plants and animals" God said. " But God man, I really don't have a green thumb, and animals spook me. Can't I do something else?" Adam inquired. You see, he had free will to question God. If he didn't like Gods plan, he could speak his mind. But no, he obeyed without question. "yes God". Sound like a child? yeah, me too.
I made all my points very clearly about the timeline. But you chose to ignore them. Chapter 2 verse 4 never says this is a recap. Recap of what? Chapter one verses 26-28? Or is it a "recap of Chapter 2 verse7. You can not "recap' something you havn't written yet. Is it oh, I forgot to put the story of Adam & Eve in Chapter one after verse 26? Well, I put it up in chapter 2. That my friend, is choppy. It doesn't follow a logical timeline. Very important , from a historical prespective. That is Vague. So, don't read it like a novel...read it as fact huh? It is written in a scidsophrenic manner. i.e. part 2 before part 1! that is inconsistant. Or is that a common writing occurance in the bible?....yes it is. I stand corrected ....it is 'consistant' in its inconsistancy. lol

How can I tell fact from fiction. Fact can be proven. ( dig up dianasour bones, the dinasour exsisted!) proven.
Fiction....at least good fiction is one ounce of truth, one ton of fantasy. Look, I love God. I just broke out of that confining, strict, bibical regiment of basic beliefs. I grew up in the church, literaly....my dad was a preacher. So, I know the bible, beutiful book, it is the salvation of man, on the 10 comandments alone. But I surpassed that "believe this or burn" mentality long ago. God is more loving than that. I excersize my 'free will' often, Just not the way you do.:)