What Yuga are we in?

[ChiefCowpie]

According to Swami Sri Yukteswar, the descending phase of Satya Yuga lasts 4800 years. That of Treta Yuga lasts 3600 years. That of Dwapara Yuga lasts 2400 years. That of Kali Yuga lasts 1200 years. The ascending phase of Kali Yuga then begins, also lasting 1200 years; and so on. The ascending phase of Kali Yuga began in September of 499AD. Since September 1699, we have been in the ascending phase of Dwapara Yuga.

This is not the traditional schedule of mainstream Hinduism, which holds that the yugas are much longer, and that we are in the long Kali Yuga today. For example, many followers of Sri Satya Sai Baba agree that Lord Rama was an avatar of Treta Yuga and Lord Krishna an avatar of Dwapara Yuga, but say we are still in Kali Yuga today.

Satya Yuga or Krita Yuga - 1,728,000 years
Treta Yuga - 1,296,000 years
Dwapar Yuga - 864,000 years
Kali Yuga - 432,000 years
Traditionally, upon conclusion of 71 circuits of this cycle, (1, 728,000 years) there is a period equally long during which the world is inundated; then the cycle begins again.

According to Yukteswar (in The Holy Science), the traditional view is based on a misunderstanding. He says that at the end of the last descending Dwapara Yuga (about 700 BC) "Maharaja Yudhisthara, noticing the appearance of the dark Kali Yuga, made over his throne to his grandson [and]...together with all of his wise men...retired to the Himalaya Mountains...Thus there was none in the court...who could understand the principle of correctly accounting the ages of the several Yugas."The full article can be found here on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugas).

[Bhaskar]

Actually it isnt just the Sai followers that say that, pretty much every Hindu organisation follows that same second arrangement of yugas. And if you look around you, it is obvious enough that we are in the kali yuga.

[BlackBillBlake]

Depends what Loka you're living on.

[Bhaskar]

how so?

[BlackBillBlake]

Sorry - just an attempt at humour.

[Bhaskar]

ok...

[BlackBillBlake]

'This is the dawning of the age of Aquarius' they sang in my youth.

[MountainGirlie]

"Kali Yuga we really are in it, heavy metal Age, where Spiritual common sense seems like magic because we're ensnared in brainwash network--the mechanical conditioning of our unconditioned consciousness." -Allen Ginsberg excerpt from the Bhagavad Gita AS IT IS

[solargarlic]

Oops. I was accidentally logged in as my sister. The above post by MountainGirlie was written by me. Just in case you were going to PM me for some reason.. I didn't want to confuse the heck out of her.

[darrellkitchen]

And if you look around you, it is obvious enough that we are in the kali yuga.
Question!

Why is it obvious? What about looking around one makes it obvious that the Yuga we are living in is Kali?

One of the problems I have with new equipment at work, like our phone system which is IP based telephones that run off their own server, using their own specially designed operating system, is that when I have questions about the operations of the system, the designers talk to me like I was supposed to have been one of the designers. So I suspect you are treating the readers as if they were / are supposed to know what a Yuga is, much less that we are living in a particular Yuga based on obvious observation without knowing what the last Yuga was like in order to base comparisons.

So, why do you say it's obvious we are living in Kali Yuga? Have you lived in Kali Yuga prior to this one in order to compare it to a previous Kali Yuga to make certain observations of "Yeah, this is Kali Yuga because it is just like the last one"?

???

Darrell

[Bhaskar]

Darrell, if you read the first post on this thread, it explains exactly what a yuga is. The kali yuga is an age of spiritual darkness, where the vast majority live in ignorance, hatred, intolerance, where the true essence of religion is hidden from most people and they follow gross misinterpretations of it. It is an age of moral decay and violence, where basic values in life are lost.

In the fourteenth chapter of the last canto of the "Paramahamsa
Samhita" portion of the Vayu Purana, named "Sri Gauranga Candra
Udaya", Lord Brahma prays to the Supreme Lord Sri Hari thus:

"In the age of Kali, people are spontaneously attracted to sinful
activities and are devoid of the regulations of the scriptures. The
so-called "twice-born" are degraded by their low-class activities and
those who are born in low-class families are alway s hostile to
brahminical culture. The twice-born are low-class by quality and do
business by selling mantras. These so-called learned men are
absorbed in their intestines and genitals and their only
identification is the thread they wear. Indulging in overeating,
absorbed in bodily consciousness, lazy, intellectually dull and
greedy for others properties, they are consistantly against God-
consciousness. Due to being overly inclined towards false paths
without essence, they manufacture their own processes for self-
realisation. Neglecting their actual duties they are expert in
blaspheming You (the Supreme Personality of Godhead) and the saintly
persons; hence again Mother Earth is in tears due to this burden.
Therefore, Oh Lord of the Universe, destroyer of the miseries of the
destitute, please mercifully do what is befitting for the protection
of the Earth and the living entities."


One quick visit to India will tell you that this is exqctly what is happening in a lot of places with the priests and brahmins selling mantras etc.

O learned one, in this iron age of Kali men have but short lives.
They are quarrelsome, lazy, misguided, unlucky and, above all, always
disturbed." (Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.1.10)


There is a lot more of it, http://www.adishakti.org/forum/kali_yuga_the_conciousness_of_lower_chakras_8-11-2004.htm. It is scary, it is very obviously happening. Note that all this was forecast in Srimad Bhagavatam, written eons ago.

[BlackBillBlake]

Really who can say what yuga this is? Or if yugas actually exist outside human calculation.

To view this as a dark age, as trad Hinduism does, seems to mean a kind of depressive approach to life - if things go wrong we can always blame it on kali yuga.
But maybe Sri Yukteswar was correct - or maybe its the age of aquarius, the eon of horus or even emmanuel swedenborg's new age. Depends what book you're using at the time.
But also, where the trad Hindu system of yugas goes, it is hardly to be taken as historical fact - certainly it flies in the face of scientific discoveries.

[Bhaskar]

it IS a dark age. Mankind is comitting atrocities undreamt of in the past. To not see it is to turn a blind eye to what goes on.

[BlackBillBlake]

Really it's only the scale of things that is different now. The NAZI attempt at genocide is shocking, for example, but only because of the scale. Other nations - the Brits and the US tried the same thing on a smaller scale in the 19th c.
There has always been opression and injustice.

My point is that things are not worse intrinsically now compared to the past - its just that its all bigger. And of course, because of the real progress that has taken place, we're all that much more informed of what is going on in the world.

Also, although people in the past tended to believe in a 'golden age' that once existed on earth, there is very little evidence for this, and much that contradicts it. Unless we believe in such a past golden age, it seems pointless to call this a dark age. Unless we say the dark age began with the advent of mankind on this planet.

You say one has to turn a blind eye not to see this is a dark age - but don't turn a blind eye to the good in the world either, or to the fact that to-day, we posses far more of the resources needed to deal with things like global poverty than was the case even 50 years ago. There are many problems, there is much that is bad, but there is also a lot that is good.

It is even possible that we are living at the beginning of a new age in terms of spiritual knowledge and so on. Many have suggested this. Even the fact that this inter-action here is taking place is symptomatic of that even - in a very small way.

But in the end, who can say? Just the fact that there is a disagreement with the traditional view from one of the stature of Sri Yukteswar ought perhaps to make one accept that this is all far from written in stone.

[Bhaskar]

We have the resources to battle poverty. So how come more almost half of India is still below the poverty line? How come people are starving in Africa? In fact the problems of poverty were minimal in India. Even in the reign of the Guptas, which was not too long ago, it was a great flourishing golden age. In a lot of ways the world is advanced now, but spiritually, without a doubt there is a huge decline. The world is far far more materialistic. Spiritual knowledge was a part of education a generation ago. Today many children dont even know basic mantras and prayers. Vegetarianism is on a decline. With the advent of factory farms (another wonderful result of modern science) animals are being tortured and brutally exploited by the million. The environment is a shambles.

There is still a lot of good in the world. The world is perfect, as it always was. All Im sying is that, when the current state was described so very accurately, several centuries ago, those guys knew what they were talking about obviously. It is happening right now, every word of it is coming true.

Our fundamental disagreement is you dont believe that avatars actually came to earth, you dont accept a lot of what the scriptures say. I do. It is fine, like some wise person said earlier, show me the love. Reason is irrelevant.

[BlackBillBlake]

It's no good to view things at a local level. We have to begin to think globally. During the rule of the Guptas in India, hardly a 'golden age', much other stuff was going on in other parts of the world.


As to poverty etc. and it's relief - just this last week the British chancellor has announced debt relief for African countries, and during Britain's presidency of the G7 the intention is to try to deal with this. How successful this will be remains to be seen. But even if it's not, the fact is that there are enough rescources to tackle these problems. All it needs is the will on the part of the world's rich nations.

Just a generation ago, very few outside of India had even heard of Mantras, Meditation etc. Now, there is interest in the west.This must be progress.

As you know from past postings, I don't accept the idea that the world is perfect. However, it may be perfectible through human effort. Certainly conditions for millions can be improved.

Avatars have come - I'm not denying that. But not all speak of the Kali Yuga.
But I'm not saying it's not Kali yuga - only that there are grounds for doubt, that we can't be certain. Also, I am far from convinced that this is functional view. It could lead to a sense of hopelessness. We are victims once again - of the very age into which we were born.

[Bhaskar]

We are not victims at all. Bhakti yoga has been described as the perfect tool for self realisation in the kali yuga, since it is easiest to practise. Also the end of the kali yuga will come with the coming of the 10th avatar of Vishnu, which is kalki avatar. What greater hope can there be, than to know that the entire concentrated tejas of brahman is going to take form and come to protect dharma?

And also, rather than be demoralised and hopeless, we must be further driven to rise beyond these seeming imperfections and realise the atma swaroopa.

[philuk]

delete

[BlackBillBlake]

The post that was here previously I have deleted as Philuk deleted the post to which it was a response.

[BlackBillBlake]

PS


Dear Bhaskar,

It is an unfortunate fact that many people do think of themselves as victims. In a way, its a psychological device - it is one of the ways in which people avoid having to deal with the negativity etc in themselves which causes them unhappiness. Instead, they look for external causes. - "It's his fault!"
"Its the system!" - "It's my parents!" etc. Lets not add "well, what do you expect - we live in the dark age".

This idea was something I encountered a few years ago when I met a group of spiritual healers. I was surprised when I looked at this just how much I myself have done it over years. Blamed everything , including the time-frame in which I was born for my problems and difficulties.
I know that we are all living under external conditions which are far from ideal. But the difficulty comes if we then begin to slip into 'victim consciousness'. It just makes us even less able to deal with things, and can lead even to physical illness. We have to be like Arjuna, and fight the good fight.

Sorry if this is off topic.

[philuk]

delete

[BlackBillBlake]

But God's will may be that one should not feel like a victim.

It may also be that we are meant to do what we can to improve conditions here.

[philuk]

delete

[BlackBillBlake]

I disagree totally that people are worse off now than in the past.

I could give many examples, but lets just cite medical advances. What would have been a fatal disease in the past can now be easily cured.
Also, in the field of religion etc. the very fact that you as a non Indian are aware at all of even the existence of Bhakti yoga is a function of human progress. Previously, it would have been christianity or nothing, and you would probably think of followers of other religions as heathens. This progress has all been facilitated by human effort - and really Prabhupada etc. are keen enough to take advantage of all this, even whilst putting it all down.

I have met many HK devotees over the years, and ex-devotees. Not a single one strikes me as having any real realization.
Prabhupada made a total mess of things where his sucessors are concerned. He selected a group of criminally minded cheaters who engaged in many nefarious activities. Yet these were supposedly the top devotees. Now, I believe, so-called 'spiritual masters' are elected by a committee.
Thus, Prabhupada made mistakes in one area - and I would say also in others. Mainly that his views are exceedingly narrow.

And how do you know who God is inspiring to improve things?

Probably from a book. But that isn't realization. It's just what you've read.

[philuk]

delete

[Bhaskar]

First of all, phil, welcome back. You're like a breath of fresh air in this forum, you always ground me when Im about to take off on a stream of unwanted bickering.

The fact is, we don't live in harmony with nature. The environment is a shambles. Yes, health care is better. But incidents of heart disease are higher, cancer rates are higher, diabetes is higher. People don't live as healthily, although medical science keeps them alive, their quality of life is not very great.

Also keep in mind that mere physical comfort or wealth is not enough for happiness, it is an inner adjustment and unfortunately people are very much further removed from that adjustment. Why do you think every other person needs psychiatric counselling? Why are so many people using anti depressant drugs?

Yes, it is a dark age. I am not offering anyone an easy victim esacpe there. That is no excuse to feel sorry for yourself. I am lucky to be born in times like this because it constantly increases my drive to transcend the ugly limitations of this world, to rise beyond and be free of it. If I lived in better times I may have been lax and lacked the initiative to do so.

In the past there were many great saints in Europe in the christian structure, flawed as it may have been. There were many who defied the church establishment also, but were accepted as great saints and jnanis. Think of St. Francis of Assisi for example. He was a true man of realisation, great spiritual master. There were many like that. Where are they now?

[philuk]

delete

[darrellkitchen]

Yes i have stayed clear of contributing lately Bhaskar because these threads seem to end in bickering.Why do you believe or think the discussions in threads "seem to end in bickering."?

Could it be because we have ideas on how one should conduct their way of living, their way of thinking, their speech, mannerisms, the way we conduct ours (in this case, yours)?

We all have our perceptions on the way we consciously perceive reality. We all interact with our surroundings by clinging to moments that no longer exist, and by creating expectations for how we think things should happen according to our clinging to past moments ... so we all have created within our own minds our perceptions of how reality "should" look, how it "should" sound, how it "should" taste, how it "should" feel, how it "should" smell, and how one "should" think.

That perception is our own perception, and so we try to explain to people this is how we perceive reality. They tell you how they perceive reality, and you refute the way they perceive it by "telling" them "this" is how they should perceive it because I perceive it this way, or "that" is how you should perceive it because I perceive it that way.

So what happens? Bickering and arguing. And over what?

We expect people to behave the way we do. We expect people to think the way we do. We expect people to perceive the way we do. We expect people to believe the way we do.

Expectations are the beginning of disappointments. Sustained expectations lead to dissapointments. Sustained disappointments lead to impatience. Sustained impatience leads to anger. Sustained anger leads to hate. Sustained hate leads to violence, disputes, killing, extinction...

Want to stop the bickering?

Stop trying to force your views and opinions on others as if they should be viewing them the way you do or forming the same opinions as you. If you want to believe in God, and someone does not, then they have their own rights in their own views and perceptions on reality as you do. Just because their views and perceptions are not yours, does not make them any more wrong than yours are to them.

How do you force your opinions on someone? By "telling" them their views and beliefs are wrong and refuting with them the same, all based on your views and beliefs.

You create the bickering, yet you complain about the bickering. The creator complains about its creation ... seems odd !!!

Only you can prevent the bickering.

With loving-kindness and compassion,

Darrell

[philuk]

delete

[darrellkitchen]

I assumed from what I have read and never practiced is that Bhaki is the path of surrender to God's will. So if practiced from mere logic means you couldnt have an opinion to criticise anything. This was all i was trying to state, not that i agree one way or the other. It wasn't my aim to force any views and opinions on others so I have deleted all previous posts. More adding information to one of Bhaskar posts.To criticise is to find fault with ... to express one's views as to the merit or demerit of something.

Where does the fault lie?

Is the fault with the other person's logic?

By who's judgement is the other person the one at fault?

What you were stating was your own view and belief. Which may or may not be shared with other's views and beliefs. It does not mean your views and opinions are wrong for you. And it also does not mean that others views and opinions are wrong for them. Nor does it mean that the views and beliefs of those whom you share the same belives and views are wrong for them (and you).

Just that they are yours, and those who share them with you. Not others who do not. When one says he does not believe that it is God's will or plan for this or that, and and someone else says it is, this is not criticism, but an expression of ones views as being correct and the others as not being correct.

I for one do not believe in a God or gods. I do, however, believe in various realms of existence where beings living within these realms exhibit properties that may or may not appear as god-like due to our perceptions and comprehensions on our on level or realm of existence.

You have every right to post your opinions, but when you start making appear as if your opinions, and those of others who share the same opinion are the correct one and the only one, then you step beyond the realm of others beliefs and perceptions and in doing so you open the door for "bickering." You in essence, create the bickering.

Darrell

[philuk]

delete

[darrellkitchen]

... Darren ...:) ... Darrell ...

You seem to have no tolerance for my intolerance. Your funny ... :)

Darrell

[philuk]

anyhow all the best Darrell

i have deleted all previous posts because I have decended into bickering which wasnt my aim.

[darrellkitchen]

anyhow all the best Darrell

i have deleted all previous posts because I have decended into bickering which wasnt my aim.Hmmm...

After watching the various transitions the past few posts have been in, I only have one thing to say ... Slow Down !!! :)

Your thought processes through the metamorphisis of your previous posts are astounding ... makes me have faith in the words of Buddha when he said there is nothing more in all of existance that changes as much as the mind.

Your a good person, Philuk. Nothing I've said previously has said anything to the contrary. Matter-of-fact, it applies to everyone reading it (them).

And the sign said: Evolution in progress ... please proceed with caution !

Darrell

[philuk]

makes me have faith in the words of Buddha when he said there is nothing more in all of existance that changes as much as the mind
I'm dyslexic darrell so i always have to edit posts lots of times for simple mistakes and basically just finding it hard to write what i mean to say.

I only posted because I know Bhaskar. I shouldnt have posted about a topic I have little knowledge of and haven't considered fully.

I dont post mainly because when i truely identify why I've posted it's because of egotistic purposes and I usually always delete them these days. This is why I dont post and not because of bickering like I stated before.

Silence is golden.

[darrellkitchen]

... i always have to edit posts lots of times for simple mistakes and basically just finding it hard to write what i mean to say.

... I shouldnt have posted about a topic I have little knowledge of and haven't considered fully.

... when i truely identify why I've posted it's because of egotistic purposes and I usually always delete them these days....

Silence is golden.Guilty as charged ... [me]

Guilty as charged ... [me]

Guilty, again, as charged ... [again, me ... well except for the deleting part]

Amen !!!

[BlackBillBlake]

In the past there were many great saints in Europe in the christian structure, flawed as it may have been. There were many who defied the church establishment also, but were accepted as great saints and jnanis. Think of St. Francis of Assisi for example. He was a true man of realisation, great spiritual master. There were many like that. Where are they now?

They are with God and
Perhaps they are still with us!
But none of them believed in a dark age - and yet they were still greatly devoted to God.

As it seems was the case with Sri Yukteswar.

[BlackBillBlake]

Also Bhaskar, although the organization and heirarchy of the medieval church was as you say, deeply flawed, arguably the belief system and philosophy was comprable to anything in Indian devotional philosophy. Certainly this is so in terms of the completeness, the all-embracing nature of the thing.

In terms of western philosophy, speaking of the medieval scholastic world-view, Bertrand Russell (no freind of Christianity) wrote that "nothing nearly so neat has emerged since".
I only want to make this point because many people think that medieval europe was all barbarism and bloodshed and persecutions. This is to ignore the deep devotionalism of the period, and the real achievements of great Christian philosophers, mystics and artists. Beneath the rough surface of medieveal euope was a rich and highly spiritual/mystical culture.

[Kharakov]

Is that like the Projects that spit out talent like Snoop, Dr.Dre, M&M, Fiddy, etc.? Beneath the rough surface of the inner city there is a rich and vibrant culture, and maybe you can score some crack.

[BlackBillBlake]

Nothing like it at all.

[Jedi]

Also Bhaskar, although the organization and heirarchy of the medieval church was as you say, deeply flawed, arguably the belief system and philosophy was comprable to anything in Indian devotional philosophy. Certainly this is so in terms of the completeness, the all-embracing nature of the thing.

In terms of western philosophy, speaking of the medieval scholastic world-view, Bertrand Russell (no freind of Christianity) wrote that "nothing nearly so neat has emerged since".
I only want to make this point because many people think that medieval europe was all barbarism and bloodshed and persecutions. This is to ignore the deep devotionalism of the period, and the real achievements of great Christian philosophers, mystics and artists. Beneath the rough surface of medieveal euope was a rich and highly spiritual/mystical culture.

I think the world will be what you think it is for you, if you like the material advances many have made in the recent past then you will think it is advancement, but if you focus on the ignorance of most people then you will see that everything is falling apart. In fact we really don't see the entire picture of what might be the real truth. One thing however is clear, we will always discriminate and we will always have a sweet spot in our hearts for our own views, which can sometimes help or hurt our quest for the truth.

[Kharakov]

But you and I, we've been through that.

[Bhaskar]

Also Bhaskar, although the organization and heirarchy of the medieval church was as you say, deeply flawed, arguably the belief system and philosophy was comprable to anything in Indian devotional philosophy. Certainly this is so in terms of the completeness, the all-embracing nature of the thing.

In terms of western philosophy, speaking of the medieval scholastic world-view, Bertrand Russell (no freind of Christianity) wrote that "nothing nearly so neat has emerged since".
I only want to make this point because many people think that medieval europe was all barbarism and bloodshed and persecutions. This is to ignore the deep devotionalism of the period, and the real achievements of great Christian philosophers, mystics and artists. Beneath the rough surface of medieveal euope was a rich and highly spiritual/mystical culture.

I agree completely with what you say. There was great good and great stupidity then, as is now. All part of the same kali yuga.

i do wish you wouldn't make absolute statements about what some saints or mystics did or did not believe. You have no source of knowledge on that one.

[BlackBillBlake]

I agree completely with what you say. There was great good and great stupidity then, as is now. All part of the same kali yuga.

i do wish you wouldn't make absolute statements about what some saints or mystics did or did not believe. You have no source of knowledge on that one.
I think it's pretty safe to say that Christian mystics in general would not have thought in these terms because within that system there is no equivalent of kali yuga. In the Christian view, this is the messianic age - the age in which Christ has come. The next big significant event, so they say, will be the second coming, and the apocalypse.

I'm not really stating an absolute view, but I don't know of any medieval Christian writings that speak of this as a dark age - of course, my knowledge is limited, and there may be something somewhere.

[BlackBillBlake]

I think the world will be what you think it is for you, if you like the material advances many have made in the recent past then you will think it is advancement, but if you focus on the ignorance of most people then you will see that everything is falling apart. In fact we really don't see the entire picture of what might be the real truth. One thing however is clear, we will always discriminate and we will always have a sweet spot in our hearts for our own views, which can sometimes help or hurt our quest for the truth.
Was there ever a time when things didn't appear to be falling apart?
In effect, that's the question here where the topic is yugas. If one believes in a golden age in the past, then this might seem worse. But - was there ever such a golden age? I've already said that myself, I doubt it.
I don't see how a belief in the possibility of human progress and evolution can harm a sincere quest for truth. Seeking for truth is a matter of being open to different points of view, different conceptions of things, and flexibility is
needed.
This post began with Chief Cowpie's post on Sri Yukteswars ideas on kali yuga. I say that this only goes to show that to rigidly adhere to the view that this is a dark age may not always be useful.

[BlackBillBlake]

But you and I, we've been through that.
But this is not our fate

[philuk]

delete