yet another post about gays and the bible

[tom]

Can someone point out to me where in the new testament that Jesus specificially refers to homosexuality as a sin, and not just sexual immorality? I've read it in the old testament, but the old testament says a lot of stuff that NO Christian would follow today.

[Smudge]

This is all from the New Testament...

Romans 1
25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen.
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

This is Paul who knew Jesus, and spoke with Jesus many times after his conversion.

Jesus, as any Jew, would have upheld the opposite gender sexual relationship which God gave to the man and woman at Creation.
There was no need for Jesus to spell it out to the Jews who He was speaking to in the Gospels.

However, when the gospel was spread further afield to the Gentiles in Greece, Rome, etc the problems came, and it did have to be clarified for the new converts...

That is why it is in the later letters from the apostles of Jesus....

e.g.
1 Corinthians 6:9 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=1COR+6:9&language=english&version=NASB&showfn=on&showxref=on)
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor [I.e. effeminate by perversion] effeminate, nor homosexuals,
(Whole Chapter: 1 Corinthians 6 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=1COR+6&language=english&version=NASB&showfn=on&showxref=on) In context: 1 Corinthians 6:8-10 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=1COR+6:8-10&language=english&version=NASB&showfn=on&showxref=on))


1 Timothy 1:10 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=1TIM+1:10&language=english&version=NASB&showfn=on&showxref=on)
and [1 Cor 6:9] immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching,
(Whole Chapter: 1 Timothy 1 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=1TIM+1&language=english&version=NASB&showfn=on&showxref=on) In context: 1 Timothy 1:9-11 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=1TIM+1:9-11&language=english&version=NASB&showfn=on&showxref=on))

The whole emphasis and good news of the gospel of Jesus is that He can change us...that ALL sin is forgiveable.
I may not be a homosexual, but I may still lie, for example, and that is sin.
It can all be forgiven if we repent, which means, confess it is wrong- i.e. God is right- and we have not been...and turn from the wrong thoughts and behaviour.
We might think we can't...but with His power, from His love, we can.

[ChiefCowpie]

This is Paul who knew Jesus, and spoke with Jesus many times after his conversion.
paul never knew jesus in the flesh...only an alleged meeting in spirit on the road to damascus...before that, paul was active in the extermination of xtians

[Smudge]

Jesus spoke with Paul many times after the initial meeting.


Are you telling me you don't believe in Spiritual meeting?

[cerridwen]

But keep in mind that all the quotes from the bible - old and new testament - are from people who are interpreting what God said, like heresay. "this is what God and Jesus would have said or wanted...."

I think that's one of the flaws of the bible.... there are all these people who have their own interpretations of what God and Jesus said, so they fill in their own information.... but if you're a true Christian, I would think, you would look at the human embodyment of Jesus, who ACTUALLY is God, and not just another person interpreting some visionary conversation they had with God. Nowhere does Jesus say anything about discriminating against gays... In fact, he promoted the idea of LOVING EVERYONE EQUALLY, and nothing less. It was everyone else's writings who pinpoint disliking homosexuals and other groupls of people.

[Smudge]

But keep in mind that all the quotes from the bible - old and new testament - are from people who are interpreting what God said,
some things are more straightforward and easy to understand than the grapevine and third hand reporting says.

Nowhere does Jesus say anything about discriminating against gays ...

that is right- he loves and welcomes ALL who come to him...

In fact, he promoted the idea of LOVING EVERYONE EQUALLY
Yes, with truly unselfish real love- which is why they crucified Him...they didn't like some of the things He said.
he didn't follow the crowd...He didn't get scared at what people thought of Him for speaking against some things, which He did.

He was not an 'anything goes' Man.

[ChiefCowpie]

i believe in spiritual meetings but with such, anyone can say anything happened...with the fact that paul and james coflicted on the teachings of jesus has me questioning the veracity of paul's accounts or even paul's accounts were edited by later folks who manipulated the teachings of jesus

as a gnostic xtian, spiritual meetings are our bread and butter

paul's teachings give xtianity a state orientation which made it palpable to the roman empire and too, paul was influenced by zoarastrian leanings

[Epiphany]

Can someone point out to me where in the new testament that Jesus specificially refers to homosexuality as a sin, and not just sexual immorality?
But God is saying that sexual immorality is a sin. Leviticus 18:22 says that to lie with a man, as man does with a woman is detestable in the eyes of the Lord. If something is detestable in the eyes of God, that would make it a sin. But in Leviticus 19:17 It says, "Don't hate your brother in heart". Don't hate men for their sins, because obviously everyone sins, but hate sin itself.

[ChiefCowpie]

i tore leviticus out of my bible...didn't think the true god would say such things...maybe an imposter god

[Smudge]

with the fact that paul and james coflicted on the teachings of jesus
No, they do not. I understand how we need both emphases and how it dovetails together.
But deep study is needed.
Faith without works is dead (James)...
Works without faith are dead ...as far as trying to ''earn'' salvation goes (Paul).
Both complement and dovetail with the understanding given by the Holy Spirit.

[Smudge]

paul's teachings give xtianity a state orientation which made it palpable to the roman empire and too, paul was influenced by zoarastrian leanings
that is not true at all...the Roman state only got hold of ''Christianity'' 3 centuries after it began... Paul had long gone to meet his Lord.
His teachings do nothing of the sort...false teachers that slipped in after him were responsible for institutionalising the 'Church.'

Zoarastrian leanings? What's all that about?
Because Paul accepted the supernatural do you mean? :(

[tom]

But God is saying that sexual immorality is a sin. Leviticus 18:22 says that to lie with a man, as man does with a woman is detestable in the eyes of the Lord. If something is detestable in the eyes of God, that would make it a sin. But in Leviticus 19:17 It says, "Don't hate your brother in heart". Don't hate men for their sins, because obviously everyone sins, but hate sin itself.

ok, that's for pointing that out, but that's why I asked for something out of the new testament. Leviticus is the one book that twist my brain more than any other.

Levitcus 7:23 says you can't eat a medium rare stake if it has grissle on it
Leviticus 11:6 and 11:7 says you can't eat bacon or rabbit
Leviticus 11:10 says you can't eat shellfish
Leviticus 19:27 says a guy can't shave
and Leviticus 20:2 says that if you do any of these things that you shall be put to death.

Seeing as most Christians would say that all sin is equal, how come some parts of Leviticus would apply to the modern day world and some wouldn't?

[Smudge]

It really needs the Holy Spirit to show us which applies still...although some of the 'rules' there are common sense...I mean the shellfish and pork one...was given when they were travelling through a hot desert without much hygiene etc...no fridges of course...

Anyway- that's the Law about things...and Jesus came...and fulfilled/completed the Law in Himself, in His own body.
But things to do with relationships in Leviticus etc are still very relevant, e.g. no incest etc... we know the problems interbreeding can do these days with genetics...
So, it needs sifting...but basically- the relationship ones are relevant...the food laws may not be necessary...but I need to re-check.... I must admit...Leviticus is not my first choice of reading from the bible...ha ha ha :D

Try Galatians in the NT where it explains about the Law, and the difference Grace makes. :)

[tom]

Try Galatians in the NT where it explains about the Law, and the difference Grace makes. :)
Galations 5:22 "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such things there is no law."

Yup, can't argue with that.

[Epiphany]

Basically the Bible is centered around family. Every verse given has the example of the unity between two people being that of a man and a woman. I found one in the new testament:

Romans chapter 1:27 - "In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men and receieved in themselves the due penalty for their perversion."

[WayfaringStranger]

welll smudge thanks for the info, i always wanted to know exactly where it was at in the new testament. i wouldnt worry to much what chief or cerridwen have to say though, youre talking to a witch and a freemason, so its pretty much they're full time job to discredit cristianity.

[thespeez]

i tore leviticus out of my bible...didn't think the true god would say such things...maybe an imposter godToo often we fail to realize that we need to understand the context of what was going on at the time that the passage of scripture in question was being written and what the author(s) was/were trying to communicate! Many times the passage was trying to illustrate the shortcomings in human understanding at the time(s) in question. Leviticus and Deuteronomy are among many books which have numerous passages which illustrate such scenarios.

One cannot quote chapter and verse and justify their 'bigotry' or shortsightedness. When studying the bible one needs to understand what the situation was at the time in question. This includes the meaning of the language as word definitions have changed over the ages. At the council of Nicea in the 4th century, the bishops and other officials were not shy about manipulating language to suit their own political agenda rather than promote spiritual integrity. Anyone who opposed the 'official' church doctrine after that time faced persecution.

With the fundamentalists embracing much of this manipulative doctrine to suit their 'mission', and with so much of the public buying into it, no wonder Christianity has been given a bad wrap.

http://www.religioustolerance.org (http://www.religioustolerance.org/)
http://freechristians.com/Site_Contents.htm
http://www.goodnewsinc.org (http://www.goodnewsinc.org/)
Information concerning sex and spiritual issues:
http://www.libchrist.com (http://www.libchrist.com/)
http://www.libchrist.com/bible/
check out howsexsin, adultery, fornication, etc.

[Smudge]

Too often we fail to realize that we need to understand the context of what was going on at the time that the passage of scripture in question was being written and what the author(s) was/were trying to communicate


I agree, that is very useful for simply cultural things, like head coverings etc...but this is not cultural, it is global and timeless... have men and women changed their genitals since then?
Do we ignore the fact that God gave woman to man, and man to woman.
Or are we our own god? i.e. making it up as we go along...

[Samhain]

welll smudge thanks for the info, i always wanted to know exactly where it was at in the new testament. i wouldnt worry to much what chief or cerridwen have to say though, youre talking to a witch and a freemason, so its pretty much they're full time job to discredit cristianity.

i think thats a really offensive thing to say, wicca is a religion like any other and its job is not to discredit other religions.
i would like to feel like i can come into this forum and have intellectual debates about christianity, but if that the type of reaction i'm going to get i won't bother.
its easy not to worry to much about others opinons if all you want is for everyone to agree with you and have an easy time.
i'd like to know more about christianty but not at the expense of other religions

S

[-GOD-]

A lot of my "footsoldiers" have often condemned gay.

Why?

Gay people are a race that will soon be extinct.

They eat themselves and don't reproduce.

[cerridwen]

Levitcus 7:23 says you can't eat a medium rare stake if it has grissle on it
Leviticus 11:6 and 11:7 says you can't eat bacon or rabbit
Leviticus 11:10 says you can't eat shellfish
Leviticus 19:27 says a guy can't shave
and Leviticus 20:2 says that if you do any of these things that you shall be put to death.
That's pretty hard core.

[HappyHaHaGirl]

I heard that the Bible only condemned homosexuality because there was a goddess whose "priests" were very efeminate guys that "partook" in homosexual activities....there is no mention of female homosexuality in the Bible, that I know of... I believe the Bible to be more about teaching lessons than telling actual history, so the condemnation of gay men, along with most of the other sins mentioned, is more of a way to wipe out other religions than it is an actual way of going to Hell... do you get what I'm talking about? I have the hardest time getting serious things across on here... :rolleyes:

[cerridwen]

I've heard something similar to that too, although I've never come across it. It's probably from an outside text of the bible...

[Samhain]

i would be careful you too, C youve already be critised for saying something challenging in here and being a witch, so you and Happy had better not rock the boat to much, as i get the feeling that they're not that interested in hearing what we have to say

S

[Brocktoon]

Nice passive-aggresive insult post Samhain.

[ChiefCowpie]

if God didn't want gay people to have sex, why did He give them assholes?

[gnrm23]

somewhere in the "old testament" laws it is stated that being disrepectful towards your parents is a capital crime...

so...
don't you be sassin' yer elders, y'hear ?

[HuckFinn]

Tom, see:

http://www.cornerstonemag.com/pages/show_page.asp?151

[HappyHaHaGirl]

i would be careful you too, C youve already be critised for saying something challenging in here and being a witch, so you and Happy had better not rock the boat to much, as i get the feeling that they're not that interested in hearing what we have to say

S
I am interested...that's why I contributed my little piece of trivia...just because I didn't agree with you word for word or whatever doesn't mean I'm just here to start something... :(

[Samhain]

Nice passive-aggresive insult post Samhain.

Fair enough let me be quite clear about this;

earlier on in the thread someone made the comment, that people on here shouldn't take notice of the views of a witch or a freemason, i think thats disrespectful and discounts views that may be seen as different to the general attitude and doesn't make me feel inclined to add a point of view.
and as no one said to this person that they thought he was being narrow minded it encourages further comments and makes the people who feel differently in the minority.

as for the comment about age, respect doesn't come with a number it has to be earnt.

have I made myself clear even if people don't agree with me this time, because if i haven't i don't know how else to say it.
in my experince people become passive aggressive when they feel that they are not being listened too, so next time you encounter it, reflection on why that person wishes to express themselves in that way may be useful

S

[ChiefCowpie]

and freemasons are hardly unchristian...they built all the fabulous christian catherdrals of europe

[Brocktoon]

and freemasons are hardly unchristian...they built all the fabulous christian catherdrals of europe
So the original group of Free Masons were made up of some Catheral builders.. 'therefore' they could not possibly be unchristian?

Wow. so smart :rolleyes:

[ChiefCowpie]

correct and the witches knew all types of healing herbal remedies to heal the sick of which they were quite open and active...as well a christian activity until their persecution of which an estimated 8 million by some accounts were killed

[Samhain]

correct and the witches knew all types of healing herbal remedies to heal the sick of which they were quite open and active...as well a christian activity until their persecution of which an estimated 8 million by some accounts were killed

mmmm its not surprising that some of us witches may end up being passive aggressive when felt discounted in a christian forum, especially after the history between us.
its a shame we can't try and lrean from that and try and be more gentle with each other now......

S

[Brocktoon]

correct and the witches knew all types of healing herbal remedies to heal the sick of which they were quite open and active...as well a christian activity until their persecution of which an estimated 8 million by some accounts were killed
There is no estimate of 8 million.
This is a myth.

Unfortunately a bunch of assholes got into power positions in Europe and began executing anyone they thought 'Rebels'.
This INCLUDED any Christians who didn't say the right things and, people practicing witchcraft.
(and im sure anyone else not with the program)

The problem is that too many people are trying to 're-define' history in order to gain for themselves 'Victim Status' rights and privilages.
This includes 'emotional justification' privilages that so many Wiccan-types yearn for.

Believe it or not - some Feminists have even tried to bolster the figures to 11 million then cleverly 're-define' it into the 'Feminist Holocaust'.

Anyway.. the best article I can find on the internet is at
http://www.holocaust-history.org/~rjg/witches.shtml

You have to excuse me because I believe its essential to cultural health to keep as accurate a record of history as possible.
Deliberately creating false history is a sure sign we will repeat the same lessons again out of ignorance.

(not saying ChiefPie deliberatley did so... I have no doubt he heard that in the various propaganda rumours others put out)

[ChiefCowpie]

one million?

two million?

three million?

four million?

five million?

or is it more important to point out beliefs ascribed to a God who holds women as second class citizens?

[Samhain]

one million?

two million?

three million?

four million?

five million?

or is it more important to point out beliefs ascribed to a God who holds women as second class citizens?

I completely agree with you chief, also its impossible to prove how many people died and from what faiths they are from so argueing over figures and facts in an attempt to discredit other religions is a moot point.
and further more it doesn't really matter, because people died and paved the way for people to practice religion in their own way today, out of respect for them we should be more open and less judgemental about others beliefs, if we can master this (albeit a big if) then we may not repeat our past mistakes, because people have died and suffered when others believe that their beliefs are right and others are wrong.

S

[Brocktoon]

one million?

two million?

three million?

four million?

five million?

or is it more important to point out beliefs ascribed to a God who holds women as second class citizens?Ahh yes.. unless you are a completely uncaring asshole then it makes a huge difference if its 60,000 or 11 million.

It makes a huge difference to 10 million people who WERE NOT burned at a stake.

Pointing out beliefs which YOU ascribe to beliefs about a God holding women as second class citizens might be important but NOT KILLING 10 million people IS pretty important too.

We are allowed to address both the fake story of 10 million women being killed
AND
Also
Discuss your false belief that Christians believe women are second class citizens.

BTW.. a good percentage of people executed were males and many were Christians NOT Witches.
Its unlikely that many of the 'Witches' were even Witches either.

From Samhain:
" also its impossible to prove how many people died and from what faiths they are from so argueing over figures and facts in an attempt to discredit other religions is a moot point."

Well sorry to tell you this but it is possible to demonstrate 11 million witches could not have been burned at the stake.
While no one has a time-machine to go back and find video-taped 'proof' this is not a good reason for you to just 'create a number' and tell others that 10 million people were killed simply because 'it feels fun to imagine it and no one will know anyway'.

The people attempting to discredit other religions with unlikely facts and figures are the fakes who keep saying '11 million' witches were killed.


Are YOU suggesting that a huge (unprovable) number is CREDITING witchcraft?
Therefore
Any attempts to suggest its untrue is an attempt to 'Discredit' Witches?

Please answer?

[Samhain]

Brockton you seem quite aggressive with your answers on here sometimes, however maybe i'm mistaken and your just passionate about your subjects.

I don't claim any number people died in the past, a lot of people where killed and tortured as witches, although common sense says that they probably did not practice witchcraft (at least not the type of witchcraft wiccans practice today) but where people that where deemed a threat to the status quo or where seemed as a bit odd, i'm really only familar with the incident at Salem, and when the girls accused the other people of being magic users and witches, probably none of them where.

I don't harp on about the burning times, however for all the people who have died or been harmed for their religious ideas, or percieved religious ideas, particualry those who where punished as being witches whether they where or not, I feel paved the way for me to practice my religion in the way I wish to.

and to remember those that have gone before I try and practice it to the best of my abilities.

I see no point in argueing about how many died and for what, one person is too many. its more important that we try and lrean from our past mistakes and honour other peoples religios ideals even if it may be different to ones own, or if we can't do that at least leave others alone, providing they are not hurting others


S

[Brocktoon]

What paved the way for your religious freedom were hundreds of thousands of Christians who rose up against the Status Quo (payed heavy prices for it) then created new societies in which there was a separation of Church and 'State'.

For the record - I think it horrifying that so many people got burned at the stake for practicing 'unofficial' religion.
This is all the more reason not to make a mockery of their deaths by re-writing history and greatly exaggerating how many were executed.

There have been enough problems with the Protestant groups exaggerating history, Catholics doing the same and now we have Wiccan and feminists making the same 'grab' for a piece of the pie too.
Meanwhile, no one is talking about what really happened.

But your right Sam.. Im passionate about it.
I get aggressive with ChiefCowPie only because he deliberately floats into threads and slides in 'cute' passive-aggresive assertions
(which he knows are insulting to the average poster)

I dont think that is your intention but honestly, to my knowledge Wicca has never been oppressed by anyone in the western world.

[tom]

I heard that the Bible only condemned homosexuality because there was a goddess whose "priests" were very efeminate guys that "partook" in homosexual activities....there is no mention of female homosexuality in the Bible, that I know of... :rolleyes:

Check romans

[cerridwen]

There is no estimate of 8 million.
This is a myth.

Unfortunately a bunch of assholes got into power positions in Europe and began executing anyone they thought 'Rebels'.
This INCLUDED any Christians who didn't say the right things and, people practicing witchcraft.
(and im sure anyone else not with the program)

The problem is that too many people are trying to 're-define' history in order to gain for themselves 'Victim Status' rights and privilages.
This includes 'emotional justification' privilages that so many Wiccan-types yearn for.
I don't get how that's a myth.... it's an estimate... the site you posted even said that there's no definate number, so all we can do is estimate... but it did happen.