LSD and Tibetan Monks

[TrippinBTM]

I heard that in the 60s some Tibetan monks were given LSD, but it didn't affect them because they were somehow beyond that sort of thing. Does anyone have any info on this, as to whether it's true and some information about the tests and results?

[BlackBillBlake]

Don't know about that - but Richard Alpert, aka Ram Dass, leary's co-worker in the 60's gave it to Maharaji, his Indian guru. Its described in the book 'Grist for the mill'.


Evidently, Maharaji just huddled under his blanket for a while, and than emerged smiling. He told Ram Dass, if memory serves, that it was ok - this could allow one to bow down to christ. He added the usual stuff about it not being a permanant state etc.

[Meagain]

That's the only place I've heard of this also, Maybe in Be Here Now too.

[Spacer]

I know early Taoist monks used to ingest hallucinagenics (sp?) as part of rituals but never heard of this with Tibetan monks.

[thumontico]

AlphaTheta waves or just Theta waves are associated with both meditation and hallucinogenic drugs like LSD and Shrooms.

[Sebbi]

I thought you were going to say something else there.

I was in the mood for a rant along the lines of "I don't care if you want to take drugs, but don't try to get religion to back you up on it."

Blessings

Sebbi

[thumontico]

I thought you were going to say something else there.

I was in the mood for a rant along the lines of "I don't care if you want to take drugs, but don't try to get religion to back you up on it."

Blessings

Sebbi
You thought I would say something like that?

[tiki_god7]

In Ram Dass's book 'Paths to God' he talks more about giving his guru lsd...I think he describes it as though its all just reality is all just consciousness and lsd opens you to a different level of it....his maharajji existed in a state of the One or ultimate consciousness he existed on all levels and was all the levels.

some theorirists believe that religions started from the psychelic experience. I know one theory states that the earliest yogi's lived in an area where a psychelic mushroom was common, they had experiences of god and from that developed hatha yoga to achieve the states of consciousness without the plant. Another beleives that at the Last Supper the 'bread' that was the flesh of Jesus was actually a type of mushroom that resembled a pita bread and was known for its taste and effects. Throughtout mexico and south america mushrooms are known as 'flesh of the gods'.....

[Mui]

it does sound like one of those buddhist tales that arent really true... and there are lots of them... albeit they have their purposes. if the monk did take acid and truly was not effected by it... than it was not acid... simple as that... the monk got ripped off.

[Sebbi]

Not neccarsarily, but that's what you learn to expect on this forum when a post has that title.

Blessings

Sebbi

[tiki_god7]

not neccessarily what?

[goldmund]

this thread has earlier roots:
http://hipforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57360

I like the one about the guru saying it allows one to bow down to Christ! About it not being a permenant state, neither is meditation. I know you can and should be able to always place yourself in that trancendental mind, but eventually you return to the world.

This problem was addressed by Hesse in Sidhartha, but I just started the book, so I don't know how it will be resolved.

All this begs the questions of when you return to the mindset of the psychedelic experience without psychedelics, are you returning to a psychedelic state, or to a meditative one. I belive its the later.

[TrippinBTM]

this thread has earlier roots:
http://hipforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57360
Actually, I posted them on the same day at about the same time. I wanted to get a varied response from both sides of the issue, drugs and buddhism.

[tiki_god7]

yeah I definatly like the answers you got from both sides...it seems as though people with faith in a religion don't want to hear anything about a chemical being able to do what years of meditation does

[Sebbi]

not neccessarily what?
Maybe I should have included:

You thought I would say something like that?
Then you would've got it.

Sebbi

[Spinor]

There is nothing unique or 'preferred" about meditation, and its effect on consciousness, that cannot be attained by other means as well.

There is nothing unique or 'preferred' about chemical effects on consciousness either.

There are aways an infinite number of linear combinations of effects and means which will combine to a specific result.

Take your pick......

[mother_nature's_son]

yeah I definatly like the answers you got from both sides...it seems as though people with faith in a religion don't want to hear anything about a chemical being able to do what years of meditation doesSomehow I doubt that you are very familiar with what years of meditation does. I've heard it put this way...
Psychedelics rush you to the top of the mountain, and then throw you down.
Meditation is a long journey to the peak, where you are able to remain.


There is nothing unique or 'preferred" about meditation, and its effect on consciousness, that cannot be attained by other means as well.


There is nothing unique or 'preferred' about chemical effects on consciousness either.

There are aways an infinite number of linear combinations of effects and means which will combine to a specific result.

Take your pick......Are you sure of this? Do you have neurobiological and psychological research to back this up?

[tiki_god7]

Psychedelics rush you to the top of the mountain, and then throw you down.
Meditation is a long journey to the peak, where you are able to remain.

I think you just rephrased what I said....psychedelics lets you briefly see what years of meditation will do...briefly being the key word here.

[goldmund]

Everything I have ever seen, experienced, etc. while under the influence of psychedelics has always been immediately accessible to me whenever I needed it. It taught me how to live, feel, and see. Don't get me wrong, people who meditate, in fact anyone can have access to that world. You don't need psychedelics, or even years of meditation. As Christ said, "the Kingdom of Heaven is upon you", you just need to realize it. There is more than one way to do so.

[mother_nature's_son]

Psychedelics rush you to the top of the mountain, and then throw you down.
Meditation is a long journey to the peak, where you are able to remain.

I think you just rephrased what I said....psychedelics lets you briefly see what years of meditation will do...briefly being the key word here.Oh ok, well that clarification changes alot. Must have been the way it was first phrased.

[mother_nature's_son]

Everything I have ever seen, experienced, etc. while under the influence of psychedelics has always been immediately accessible to me whenever I needed it. It taught me how to live, feel, and see.
This sounds quite interesting, could you possibly elaborate a bit?

[goldmund]

Sure, the way it taught me to see light, sound, energy, etc. I can still see things in the same "light" so to speak. Psychedelics have never revealed to me anything that wasn't there, just what I had not noticed or paid attention to.
Here is the big difference between meditation and the psychedelic experience: when you meditate, you separate yourself from your environment, most often finding a quiet space where you can clear your thoughts (I know this isn't always the case, but let me generalize for a sec). When you take psychedelics, you are forced to interact with reality, but from a different perspective. It allows you to take directly the things you see and the experiences you have and apply them to real life.

Another main difference is that meditation is always controled by the meditator (even when guided), and as a result, it is completely dominated by will and ego. You are not entirely in control when you ingest psychedelic substances. You have to lose your ego to be guided by a cosmic force outside of yourself.

[Spacer]

Psychedelics rush you to the top of the mountain, and then throw you down.
Meditation is a long journey to the peak, where you are able to remain.

I think you just rephrased what I said....psychedelics lets you briefly see what years of meditation will do...briefly being the key word here.
Very good analogy.

[mother_nature's_son]

Here is the big difference between meditation and the psychedelic experience: when you meditate, you separate yourself from your environment, most often finding a quiet space where you can clear your thoughts (I know this isn't always the case, but let me generalize for a sec).True, but the meditation experience does not end when you leave that quiet space, in fact, I would venture to say that most of the experience comes in allowing the effects to work their magic throughout the day.

Another main difference is that meditation is always controled by the meditator (even when guided), and as a result, it is completely dominated by will and ego. You are not entirely in control when you ingest psychedelic substances. You have to lose your ego to be guided by a cosmic force outside of yourself.I do understand the value of psychedelics here. However, it should be noted that many unexperienced, un-self-actualized individuals will drown in the waters where the mystic swims. People can get in over their heads.

But hmm, meditation completely dominated by ego? Through my experience, the main objective of meditation is to disassociate from the ego-ridden thought and feeling patterns that bombard our daily lives. Will is definitely involved, but this is more of a spiritual attraction, a deep movement towards an integrated mind, body, and spirit. A lot of people call it 'god'.

With meditation experience you can surely learn more. :)

[goldmund]

I agree mother's nature son. The problem with psychedelics is that while you can take so much from the experience, you can't always stay purely in that state, nor would you want to! Which leaves us to consider the rest of our waking lifes. This is where meditation come in.

You're right, the point of meditation is to teach you to live and to meditate in moments that are not always accompanied with inner peace, to live in the moment, etc. And while psychedelics can teach you these things and more, you need some form of meditation to live it. The two are not mutually exclusive!

Also, it would be very irresponsible and dangerous to recommend LSD, etc. to everyone. It is a powerful drug that can have severe consequences for some people who use it. Meditation, on the other hand, is something that everyone should do in some form. Breath work, prayer, yoga, excersise/sport can also be yogic/meditative. There is no darkness here!

Saying that meditation is controled, thus completely dominated by will and ego, was an overstatement in making a point. There is obviously will and ego present in the psychedelic experience as well, look a Jim Morrison :), or the people who think that they are God (although some might consider this self-actualization).

I think the original post had something to do with whether or not Tibetan Buddhist monks, hindu gurus, etc. had anything to learn by taking psychedelics, or even if it affected them at all. If interested, you can take a look at my earlier posts for my position on these questions.

Until then, peace.