Sanity

[Occam]

What is sanity? A judgement Based in reason

Thus
No human being is sane.

We wallow in self indulgence
That IS. Religion
RELIGION IS SELF INDULGENCE.
We indulge ourselves that we are important
CRAP.
Important to whom?


Occam

[BlackGuardXIII]

My dad was once asked it he could prove his sanity. After consideration, he replied, no.
The man then said he could.
The fellow then produced a card that read 'certified sane', which was from a psychological assessment to decide capability of intent in a crime he had been charged with.
My overall view of humanity in general is that we are collectively, completely, criminally insane.
I hope I am wrong.

[dilligaf]

i hope ya are too black,,, but man i gotta say,,,, as i age i see things in much more that same light,,,,, n seem to be losing that sense of hope that i had when i was younger,,,, kinda saddens me n yet at the same time i hate it that society deems fit that we still portray that false or so it seems hope to the younger generation still n not as it is,,,, has tended to atleast in my eyes cause so much of what we see in life today n we will even more so in the future at the rate we are goin

[BlackGuardXIII]

i hope ya are too black,,, but man i gotta say,,,, as i age i see things in much more that same light,,,,, n seem to be losing that sense of hope that i had when i was younger,,,, kinda saddens me n yet at the same time i hate it that society deems fit that we still portray that false or so it seems hope to the younger generation still n not as it is,,,, has tended to atleast in my eyes cause so much of what we see in life today n we will even more so in the future at the rate we are goin
http://www.xs4all.nl/~mke/exitmundi.htm

odds of which one will be the right answer to what does us in?..anyone

[dilligaf]

humdidum,,,, simply because,,,, we are well headed that way and it will take all the loonies inorder to accomplish any of the others..... errr sumthin like that ;)

my feelins are we are raisin insanity n breeding it to ensure that we totally skroo the world,,,, then again,,, maybe that could also be the most easily prevented one if we stopped the insanity now!!,,,

but since most the world dont seem to think of it as insanity, but rather as technology n advancement of the human n science n shit then i dont foresee that coming anytime soon,,,,:S what a glim picture i am producing in my head lol

[BlackGuardXIII]

We are toast, the toaster popped over 25 years ago, and just hasn't been taken out and eaten yet.
The highest levels of power in this present world must know this.
they may be heartless, but they can add.
Odds...............I give us as to the chances.

1 trillion to 1, conservatively.

[BlackGuardXIII]

The translation of the word describing the role that used Adam and Eve regarding animals. Dominion over them is the traditionally taught one, connoting an image of the right to use them as we please, for our own purposes, however cruel, wasteful, arrogant, and damaging.
I have this theory that if the word had been taken to mean stewardship, which to me connotes looking after the survival and prosperity of our fellow creatures.

[Occam]

The translation of the word describing the role that used Adam and Eve regarding animals. Dominion over them is the traditionally taught one, connoting an image of the right to use them as we please, for our own purposes, however cruel, wasteful, arrogant, and damaging.
I have this theory that if the word had been taken to mean stewardship, which to me connotes looking after the survival and prosperity of our fellow creatures. Blackguard

The word..is any damn damn thing we want it to be. Through the power of the gun and our egos...We define sanity this day.
Religion says we must dominate. and use all life to our own ends.
One more proof that religion is insane,
That we muat fill the world with us to the detriment of all other life..another proof. Governments follow the law of religion..For they have NO morality or ethic. Their EXCUSE is religion. They take away the power of religion..yet fall back on it's ethic,
States make war underpinned by religious waffle...Nazis with 'god is with us' belt buckles. Capatalists with white readneck evangelism,
Muslim/christian fundamentalists killing left right and center.
For god...

Sanity..would be rational stewardship of all life.
But THAT sanity is of reason.
A thing in short supply on this planet.

It ia occams purpose. his meaning. To promote rational sanity in our race.
That ALL life is is the only thing of true value.
Not just human life. [a thing promoted by church and state]
This is why he posts here.

Occam

[Duncan]

Main Entry: san·i·ty http://m-w.com/images/audio.gif (javascript:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?sanity01.wav=sanity'))
Pronunciation: 'sa-n&-tE
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English sanite, from Latin sanitat-, sanitas health, sanity, from sanus healthy, sane
: the quality or state of being sane; especially : soundness or health of mind



http://m-w.com/images/pixt.gif
Main Entry: sane http://m-w.com/images/audio.gif (javascript:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?sane0001.wav=sane'))
Pronunciation: 'sAn
Function: adjective
Inflected Form(s): san·er; san·est
Etymology: Latin sanus healthy, sane
1 : proceeding from a sound mind : RATIONAL (http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=rational)
2 : mentally sound; especially : able to anticipate and appraise the effect of one's actions
3 : healthy in body
synonym see WISE (http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=wise)
- sane·ly adverb
- sane·ness http://m-w.com/images/audio.gif (javascript:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?sane0002.wav=saneness')) /'sAn-n&s/ noun


As I see it, sanity refers to a state of rational thinking and healthfulness of body. Does that mean that if a body is deteriorating, a person is no longer sane? And what of the person who is demented, but is strong enough to push a car uphill?

In today's world it seems as if sanity is tantamount to conformism. The closer your thinking is to the elected majority, the more sane you are. Of course, I am irrational as pi!

[Occam]

In today's world it seems as if sanity is tantamount to conformism. The closer your thinking is to the elected majority, the more sane you are. Of course, I am irrational as pi!
Duncan

Truth..Social sanity is conformism...
Yet society, art, and understanding advance through the acts of those that do not conform..
All human advance beyond grubbing for food in the dirt and hiding from animals in trees is a product of the insane,
Yet the insane require a social sanity.conformism. To exist , So THEY can
change society through insanity.

The dichotomy that is us.

Occam

[BlackGuardXIII]

the chance that either will turn up at any given time is never a certainty, and the more times one shows up, the more likely it will become for a stretch of the other to happen.
That is either the ravings of a lunatic, or the profound insight of a sage.


"A clever man commits no minor blunders." - Goethe (1749-1832)

[Occam]

the chance that either will turn up at any given time is never a certainty, and the more times one shows up, the more likely it will become for a stretch of the other to happen.
That is either the ravings of a lunatic, or the profound insight of a sage.


"A clever man commits no minor blunders." - Goethe (1749-1832)
Blackguard..

Einstein..a patent clerk...Was called insane by the 'learned' when he proposed that reality worked the way he described..

He is now considered one of the greatest human minds known to history.

He believed that imagination is of far greater import to us as thinking beings. Than intelligence.
And occam agrees.

Jesus was also such a man...Yet he lived in an age of relative intollerance.
And died for his ideas.
He believed that love of others was of far greater import to us as feeling beings. Than love of self[ego].
And occam agrees.

Occam

[BlackGuardXIII]

And I agree with you both too. Einstein is the most spiritual scientific icon that I know of. His warm smile says it all. I remember reading that a math teacher once told him he would never amount to anything.

He is an inspiration to me, and a great example to refer to when people claim there is no such thing as a spiritual intellectual. Spirituality and Science were once interlocked as one, and maybe, I hope, someday will be again.

[roly]

What is sanity? A judgement Based in reason

Thus
No human being is sane.

We wallow in self indulgence
That IS. Religion
RELIGION IS SELF INDULGENCE.
We indulge ourselves that we are important
CRAP.
Important to whom?


Occam
Religious people are usually humble and not selfish.
Roly.xxx

[gnrm23]

man is not a rational animal;
man is a rationalizing animal


(attributed to lazarus long...)

[BlackGuardXIII]

Religious people are usually humble and not selfish.
Roly.xxx

I totally agree, Roly. It is sad that the few that aren't get all the attention, by the very nature of their lack of those qualities. I look at religious people like Mother Teresa, the Dalai Lama, and Gandhi as great examples of that.

[Kharakov]

What is sanity? A judgement Based in reason

Thus
No human being is sane.I am and I am not. I think most people have a healthy balance of sanity and insanity in their psyche.

We wallow in self indulgence
That IS. Religion
RELIGION IS SELF INDULGENCE.Self indulgence kicks ass. Thinking it is bad to seek the best possible outcome for youself goes against the very nature of life, not to mention love- love others as yourself... seek the best for yourself and all around you (because being surrounded by misery would suck).

We indulge ourselves that we are important
CRAP.
Important to whom?I'm important to me. I bet I am important to my friends and family as well. I am also willing to bet you are important to yourself, your friends, and your family- and I know you are important to me.

[BlackGuardXIII]

I must say that I totally see the critical value of loving oneself, for it is a prerequisite for loving others.

We can be self indulgent in a good way.
My dad once tried to convince me that Mother Teresa was selfish, and did her thing not to help others, but to feel good. I didn't exactly agree, but the point is worth looking at.

[Kharakov]

My dad once tried to convince me that Mother Teresa was selfish, and did her thing not to help others, but to feel good.
I used to argue that same point... until I realized that selfishness implies serving yourself at the expense of others, not serving yourself by serving others. The 2nd option is far wiser, and is the one that MT picked- I feel good if I help people, benefits to all around.

[Occam]

I used to argue that same point... until I realized that selfishness implies serving yourself at the expense of others, not serving yourself by serving others. The 2nd option is far wiser, and is the one that MT picked- I feel good if I help people, benefits to all around.
Kharakov

Interesting...

Occam agrees that the second option is far wiser.
We may be US..the parts of humanity.
But humanity is more than us...It is the synergy of us..
A thing no individual can have.

Humanity is greater than the sum of its parts..[us]

Occam proposes that our individual purpose is to enrich humanity by understanding and teaching. By compassion and love.
And in so enriching our race,,, we find meaning.

Yet religion says its all about THE INDIVIDUAL.. That is why..in this age...
it is defunct...
We are now a self evolving conglomerate called humanity.
Our future is any future we wish it to be...
A thing only FREE WILL allows.

Occam

[Kharakov]

Occam proposes that our individual purpose is to enrich humanity by understanding and teaching. By compassion and love.
And in so enriching our race,,, we find meaning. And when you know the compassion and love are there, you can joke around and call eachother assholes. You have to be sensitive though- sometimes people don't get it. That's part of love... God called Isreal a whore.. which is pretty funny if you think about it. A dirty, dirty, whore that needs to be beaten. (Ezekiel) hahaha

Yet religion says its all about THE INDIVIDUAL..I don't understand what you mean. I thought religion was about groups of individuals interacting?

Our future is any future we wish it to be...
A thing only FREE WILL allows.Ahh, free will. The old argument. You give someone 2 words and they argue that their will did not come from an outside source, that they are not molded by circumstance, that their decisions do not arise because of the forces that made them, but instead are separate and sovereign over these forces. Hahaha, people seem to forget they wouldn't be arguing about this topic if outside forces had not introduced it to them, and enticed them into the argument.

Will is free, nobody charges you for it, but it is determined by the forces that created it. If your genetics (I use this term loosely, there are many factors involved, God being the ultimate determining factor) determined it, you would like eating shit and corpses (like diptera calliphoridae) thinking you willed your desire to do it all along. Then again, I can't say that peoples belief in free will arises from anything but the forces that made them, so I don't blame people for their belief in this concept. They simply can't help it, until forces cause them to rethink their irrational belief.

[Occam]

QUOTE Kharakov
And when you know the compassion and love are there, you can joke around and call eachother assholes. You have to be sensitive though- sometimes people don't get it. That's part of love... God called Isreal a whore.. which is pretty funny if you think about it. A dirty, dirty, whore that needs to be beaten. (Ezekiel) hahaha

Occam
Occam calls none an ARSEHOLE..even in joking.
And calls none a dirty whore that needs to be beaten.
Your idea of love is not occams.


I don't understand what you mean. I thought religion was about groups of individuals interacting?

Occam
Religion is about a group of humans that tell other humans that the 'truth'
is 'this'
And that truth is about 'personal sin'
Go ask the catholics.

Ahh, free will. The old argument. You give someone 2 words and they argue that their will did not come from an outside source, that they are not molded by circumstance, that their decisions do not arise because of the forces that made them, but instead are separate and sovereign over these forces. Hahaha, people seem to forget they wouldn't be arguing about this topic if outside forces had not introduced it to them, and enticed them into the argument.

Will is free, nobody charges you for it, but it is determined by the forces that created it. If your genetics (I use this term loosely, there are many factors involved, God being the ultimate determining factor) determined it, you would like eating shit and corpses (like diptera calliphoridae) thinking you willed your desire to do it all along. Then again, I can't say that peoples belief in free will arises from anything but the forces that made them, so I don't blame people for their belief in this concept. They simply can't help it, until forces cause them to rethink their irrational belief.

Occam
Incorrect..
Free will is a result of self aware minds.
Self aware minds are a result of the laws of reality that HAVE resulted in self aware minds. [through evolution ?]
Free will USES the laws that allow self aware minds to change reality to what those free thinking minds wish.

You say god is the ultimate determining factor
Occam says god is the primal determination.
It set the rules.. not the outcome.
Set the machine in action...
the machine [reality] exists to produce free will.

Free will is the
PRIME PURPOSE OF REALITY

Be it human or any other race.

Creation is only just now 'happening'
Evolution is how 'a' god creates.
What fool says we are the final result? ego

Occam

[Kharakov]

Occam calls none an ARSEHOLE..even in joking.
And calls none a dirty whore that needs to be beaten.
Your idea of love is not occams.
Part of love is that you can joke around with your loved ones without them thinking you mean to hurt them by words or actions. Like I said earlier, you cannot act this way with everyone, because some people take it the wrong way and think you are trying to intentionally offend or hurt them.

Religion is about a group of humans that tell other humans that the 'truth'
is 'this'
And that truth is about 'personal sin'
Go ask the catholics.
Religion is a system of beliefs based upon faith. It can be either personal (like me) or a part of an institutionalized system (such as the catholic church).


Incorrect..
sure 'bout that? Free will is a result of self aware minds.
Self aware minds are a result of the laws of reality that HAVE resulted in self aware minds. [through evolution ?]
Free will USES the laws that allow self aware minds to change reality to what those free thinking minds wish.
Ok. There is the free will that philosophers argue about: freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention, and there is the use of the term that you might be using :voluntary choice or decision (I do this of my own free will). (both from m-w.com).

I was refering to the classic philosophical argument.
"Ahh, free will. The old argument."

Set the machine in action...
the machine [reality] exists to produce free will.
I agree that one of realities purposes is to produce free will in the sense 'voluntary choice'.

[Shane99X]

I have yet to meet a sane person.


Human beings...
So much potential...

None of us have anything to say or think that hasn't already been said or thought.

Forgive me, it's my birthday so i'm a little depressed

[Occam]

Kharakov

As a clarifation...Of course free will is bound by the state of reality the person is embedded in at the moment of 'choice'
By all the parrameters or deterministic law...[objective]
One can 'choose' from multiple paths.
This allows reason to choose paths that allow other paths to open.
This is the power of reason.
It is also the way of wisdom.

Only a being capable of acausal creation. Is not bound to the
possibilities offered by gross deterministic reality

Occam

What happens when there a few or no choices to decide from.?
Trapped like rat
Stuck between a rock and a hard place.
In a pickle
catch22
hobsons choice
in a bind

[shgoaghoiag]

This is all well and good, but this appears to an entirely theoretical discussion. Lets move back towards reality shall we? Sure it's wonderfully hip to claim that one has never met a sane person, or that the insane are responsible for creative progression, but lets think about how sanity and free will apply to real life. Firstly, sanity is a comparative measure which is designed to seperate the socially unfit from the functional human beings. Thus, whilst essentially, no-one is always rational and "sane," for all intents and purposes, they may as well be, or life appears rather pointless.

Secondly, no-one is without outside influences, simply by the fact that you were born, and then again from the obvious eventuality that you are here discussing this topic, means that you have been influenced. Free-will, in the abstract form that it is so often discussed, is impossible. In a usable, day-to-day format, I like to think that Free will is simply a decision or thought that did not stem entirely from ones surroundings, other people or an advertisment. There, now I've finished my ramble, you may continue with your discussion.

[Apples+Oranjes]

Not really relating to religion...
You MAY be right that no one is sane.. But there's a line you draw...
There are people who can cope with insanity, and there are people who let their insanity get out of control and take it to the extreme.
But, then if you look at it from another angle... Those same people who may take it to the extreme, may see ME as insane ...yes?
There is no definition of normality or sanity. Everyone has quirks, different perspectives, and different morals... and there is no factual evidence to prove whether one is right or one is wrong. Normality and sanity is a point of view. For me, it's normal to not eat meat, for me it's normal to not lie... but for others the things I find normal, are out of the ordinary for them.

To an atheist or agnostic, religion may seem insane.
To a Christian, we probably seem insane. "How can you NOT believe in a higher power?" I hear this often from Christians around my area. I'm "weird" to them.

IS everyone insane? Or are we ALL normal just for being quirky?

I can't say either. People are different, and to me its neither insanity, or normality... It's life. It's human nature.

[nitemarehippygirl]

What is sanity? A judgement Based in reason

Thus
No human being is sane.

We wallow in self indulgence
That IS. Religion
RELIGION IS SELF INDULGENCE.
We indulge ourselves that we are important
CRAP.
Important to whom?


Occam
but nature clearly made us this way,
if nearly every civilization has indulged their ego in forming a religion.
we haven't betrayed nature in becoming self-indulgent, have we?
we are fulfilling our natures: ego.

it seems that we've come up against ourselves now, confused.
our nature seems to be self indulgence, but self awareness recognizes this and what, tries to rid itself of it? what then is our nature if not ego?

[Occam]

but nature clearly made us this way,
if nearly every civilization has indulged their ego in forming a religion.
we haven't betrayed nature in becoming self-indulgent, have we?
we are fulfilling our natures: ego.

it seems that we've come up against ourselves now, confused.
our nature seems to be self indulgence, but self awareness recognizes this and what, tries to rid itself of it? what then is our nature if not ego?
HippyGirl

What about the buddhists?

Ego is fine as long as it dos'nt think

Occam

Ps..The post you quoted is blunt and inelegant.
Sometimes occam gets the stupids.

[Kharakov]

When Ego's think they waffle.

[steffan]

I have seen true insanity, it"s reasoniong does not follow simple logical thinking, if someone who is insane wants to believe 2+2=5 it will believe it.

[NaykidApe]

I think Occams on to something here with "self indulgence =insanity".


alot of the truely insane people I've known had this in common; they thought they were, or should be, the center of the universe and couldn't understand why the universe wasn't going along with this.

[sitareric]

Sanity, is not meaning "sanitary" remember that. Now to the point!! I telllllllll you, Nose.
No not NOse. Clothes!.. I just Woohoo do waht im told, I shut all the doors. but i opened em the next morning, but more important is that, sanity is theis crayz thing of these built realities, constructs of sorts, and standard patterns, that we build ourselves into, out side of this sanity construct, is the principle of darkness, and all that grows within, like infinite fractals growing to create all that we choose, rather than dull and unfruitful in sanity, they seeth with natural life.

[Kharakov]

I have seen true insanity, it"s reasoniong does not follow simple logical thinking, if someone who is insane wants to believe 2+2=5 it will believe it. Really, so they have minds that are less subservient to reality then ours? I must become insane... insane in the membrane, insane in the brain!

chances are you know someone who is truly insane, you can't always spot them, there are many who have learned to hide who they are in regular society. Everyone I know has seriously told me that I am crazy... well at least the people I party with. They must be nutz...

there are signs though, beware of those who do not apologize for there actions, and of mature individuals who tend to go to great lengths to cultivate realationships with the young, (sorry kids but lack of experience alows them to "get over") Like God? How about my parents? Shit, they used to wipe my butt!! I knew they were sickos! Thanx for clarifying things. I will now go to a shrink and tell them of the revelations I have achieved through reading your words.

[steffan]

2+2=4 theres no way to change or alter that, and only someone insane would believe otherwise

[Kharakov]

2+2=4 theres no way to change or alter that, and only someone insane would believe otherwise
There's more than one way to crunch a number.

[BlackGuardXIII]

In particle physics 2 + 2 doesn't always = 4, or so I have read, I really have no clue.
But I do know this, 2 H bombs + 2 wackos = something way worse than 4.

[steffan]

There's more than one way to crunch a number.no mater how you "crunch" numbers you cant alter facts, you can add to the equation, like 2 rabbits plus two rabbits equals a chit load of rabbits, but then it would be (2+2)+ the amount of babys born= Y, someone could also say 2 hydrogen atoms + 2 hydrogen atoms = 2 heliom atoms, while in a sence this is true is it the logic employed by many insane people too excuse or justify there thoughts or actions, the equation is incomplete to the point of being missleading and therefore false for any practical purpose. the truth is that(2 h.a+2ha + the conditions necasary to fuse them together = 2 heliom atoms + enough energy to blow the moon into pizza topping

[Kharakov]

Lol...
Crunch : PROCESS; especially : to perform mathematical computations on <crunch numbers>

There is the possibility in reality that a certain code (program) designed to add numbers returns 5 for the computational instruction add 2 to 2.

Remember the pentium long division 'errors'?

There is a right and wrong way to crunch numbers.. more than one way..... :p

[steffan]

Lol...
Crunch : PROCESS; especially : to perform mathematical computations on <crunch numbers>

There is the possibility in reality that a certain code (program) designed to add numbers returns 5 for the computational instruction add 2 to 2.

Remember the pentium long division 'errors'?

There is a right and wrong way to crunch numbers.. more than one way..... :p this is a foolish and pointless argument but what the hell im bored,,
like you say 'errors'

[Kharakov]

Man. I am hungry. Wonder what I'm gonna eat? Errors....