Your Beliefs Are Yours!

[Diamond Gord]

I read these forums regularly and do so to hear other peoples beliefs and opinions. I have my own thoughts and if someone asks about them, I will explain them.
What strikes me about some posters on this forum is the need they have to force their beliefs on others. In my opinion, the need to have others agreeing with your beliefs shows that you have doubts and need the security of knowing that there are others that believe the same.
In other words the most vociferous advocates of their own beliefs seem to be the ones who lack faith in them.
By all means discuss your thoughts but trying to force them on others makes reading them far from appealing.
Back to lurking for me now.

[BlackGuardXIII]

I read these forums regularly and do so to hear other peoples beliefs and opinions. I have my own thoughts and if someone asks about them, I will explain them.
What strikes me about some posters on this forum is the need they have to force their beliefs on others. In my opinion, the need to have others agreeing with your beliefs shows that you have doubts and need the security of knowing that there are others that believe the same.
In other words the most vociferous advocates of their own beliefs seem to be the ones who lack faith in them.
By all means discuss your thoughts but trying to force them on others makes reading them far from appealing.
Back to lurking for me now.
lurk on...

[roxycheer]

I agree totally with you and i support that all are entitled to there own beliefs...but i must question when it comes to the beliefs of a murderer is that still okay then?? Or then is it okay for us to force our beliefs on them?? If it means saving the life or lives of innocent/ce.

[Hikaru Zero]

lurk on ...

[BlackGuardXIII]

I agree totally with you and i support that all are entitled to there own beliefs...but i must question when it comes to the beliefs of a murderer is that still okay then?? Or then is it okay for us to force our beliefs on them?? If it means saving the life or lives of innocent/ce.
It is uncertain if one can force beliefs on others, and the attempt to do so is unproductive, or worse, hurtful. But, I will not stand idly by and watch someone being harmed. It is my view that stopping the attack is a must, and ignoring it is immoral.

And it harm none, do what you will.

[Lucy_In_The_Sky]

I will never try to force my opinion on other people. If people ask me about my beliefs I will explain them and they mostly agree with me, but if they don't I don't mind. But that is because I think there is not something like 'the universal Truth'. There are lots of truths, and everyone has his own, and if they clash you might be able to glimps a part of the real Truth. :)

[Brocktoon]

What and 'Who' a person believes is very signifigant, can change the world, directly affect their lives and without a doubt the lives of others.

What we believe (as a family, culture, society) IS what will affect the quality of life of all around us.

Nothing matters more than a persons 'Belief System'.

Hitler 'personally believed' that humans were morphed from animals.
It was also his personaly belief that the closer to an 'African' a person was - the more of an 'Animal' they were.
This DIRECTLY informed his decision to kill a whole lot of parent, brothers, grandparents and children.

Believing that 'Nothing is really 'True' and that we simply make our own 'truths' as we 'feel' they fit has REAL signifigance on how people will live, make decisions, value their experiences.
I see that everyday in the youth I work with... who do 'whatever' and honestly have NO IDEA what it means to 'Stand for something' or hold anything sacred ..or a concept of love (outside fuckpartners)

There are endless examples throughout every day.
Ask Victims of 9/11 if 'Personal Beliefs' are signifigant and important in our real daily lives.
its THE important issue.

[thumontico]

There is no ultimate truth as far as values go. Societies have governments [and participating citizens], among other things, to define and dictate morals for that society, and are only valid for that society.

You cannot say necessarily that shallow relationships, lack of motivation, and lack of integrity are negative concepts.

Without God there is no convenient objective moral source, values must be CREATED. You believe there is a God and a premade set of guidelines. That is fine, and I have no problem with it. That is until your beliefs inhibit the freedom of others in ways that have no rational base, none other than their subjective beliefs.

I agree it is THE important issue, but I do not think anyone claimed contrarily.

[Brocktoon]

There is no ultimate truth as far as values go.
Are you stating that is an absolute truth?

You cannot say necessarily that shallow relationships, lack of motivation, and lack of integrity are negative concepts.
Yes i can

Without God there is no convenient objective moral source,
I can tell you have never been a devoted Jew... or you would never describe the moral laws of God 'Convenient'.

values must be CREATED.
Natural Sex is 'Dirty' - Sex with plastic is no more than masterbating.
Pulling a baby out of a mothers womb with forceps and throwing it in the garbage is valuable.
A man masterbating into another anus is valuable (as long as its coated in plastic)
Placing people in jobs or authority based on the amount of pigment in their skin tissue (and or facial features)

There are all kinds of new values being placed (or removed) and its interesting to see the consequences (if and when the values are observed)


You believe there is a God and a premade set of guidelines.
That is fine, and I have no problem with it.
Yes you do. You believe these guidelines (or many) are invalid, flawed or negative.

That is until your beliefs inhibit the freedom of others in ways that have no rational base, none other than their subjective beliefs.
Why are YOU telling ME about values and freedoms being inhibited by anyone else?
Why are you talking 'as if' your being infringed upon by anyone else's morality?

Speaking of 'Subjective' - it might be YOUR SUBJECTIVE Opinion that killing a hundred future citizens a day by abortion is not a 'rational' value to have or not.
Without a standard .. ALL your values become subjective opinions which will undoubtedly 'inhibit' someone elses subjective beliefs

One gang member believes he is justified in killing off rival gang members.
They have agreed on this morality and value amongst themselves.
Since murder is neither 'good or bad' then we can allow them to murder each other 'as long as' it doesnt affect other people?

No sense in trying to debate ANY scenario when a naturalistic world view has zero concept of any such things as 'right' 'wrong' 'good' 'bad' etc etc.
If it benefits the society as a whole to invade Poland and gas some Jews - so be it.
Nothing means anything anyway.

But in anycase - I have no idea why YOU have decided to 'warn' other people about rights being infringed or inhibited?

Why do YOU think your right to freedom has any 'value' outside yourself?

Why do you protest having values enforced on you - is this some sort of subjective moral rule YOU want others to obey?

[/QUOTE]

[BlackGuardXIII]

Brocktoon, Thumontico says he has no problem with you believing what you want. You tell him he does so, and therefore feel you know his mind better than he does himself. Wow.
Maybe he just did not express himself clearly enough for you to grasp his point. I feel I understand his meaning. And I believe he knows what he feels better than any of us do.

How is it that expressions of love that support and respect anothers differing views are a threat?
I notice as well that any view contrary to yours is categorized as 'nothing means anything'.
The outright dismissal of one's spiritual views based on their having a different religious affiliation makes no sense to me.
Of course, you know that I am one of those 'freethinkers'.

[TARABELLE]

How is it that expressions of love that support and respect anothers differing views are a threat?
I notice as well that any view contrary to yours is categorized as 'nothing means anything'.
The outright dismissal of one's spiritual views based on their having a different religious affiliation makes no sense to me.
Of course, you know that I am one of those 'freethinkers'.
Intolerance! I can't tolerate it!!!!! HaHAHAHA!

[BlackGuardXIII]

I hate hate, and I unconditionally love unconditional love. I have a bias against bias, and non-acceptance is unacceptable to me.

[Brocktoon]

Why would you bother saying "I have no problem with your beliefs" when you clearly DO have some problems with some of them.
I didnt say Thumbotico is deliberately plotting to subvert others beliefs or hate on them... Im correctly pointing out that Thumbotioc (and just for example) does NOT agree with the Judeo-Christian belief Genesis is a historic account.

He has 'Problems' with that belief.

I cant honestly say "I have no problems with BlackGuards beliefs" when its obvious I have a problem with your racist belief system.

Thumbotico REALLY MEANS he wont have any problem with other beliefs unless they interfere with his beliefs.
He wants to be taught Evolutionism in school (his faith) and if Creationism was taught, even once during his semester - he would be mad (because thats not HIS belief).
Right?

[BlackGuardXIII]

Why would you bother saying "I have no problem with your beliefs" when you clearly DO have some problems with some of them.
I didnt say Thumbotico is deliberately plotting to subvert others beliefs or hate on them... Im correctly pointing out that Thumbotioc (and just for example) does NOT agree with the Judeo-Christian belief Genesis is a historic account.

He has 'Problems' with that belief.

I cant honestly say "I have no problems with BlackGuards beliefs" when its obvious I have a problem with your racist belief system.

Thumbotico REALLY MEANS he wont have any problem with other beliefs unless they interfere with his beliefs.
He wants to be taught Evolutionism in school (his faith) and if Creationism was taught, even once during his semester - he would be mad (because thats not HIS belief).
Right?Thumontico may say he doesn't believe the Genesis stories, a belief which he sees as no problem. He sees the fact you believe them as no problem.
You are claiming to know more about him than he does, as I said earlier.
I don't think you do, and ask Thumontico to correct me if I am mistaken.
I have problems with bigots like yourself ignoring my often repeated requests to quit lying about me.
You were the one that made the irrational, ethnocentric statements. Remember? You then tried to claim it was me. I take issue with that, though I doubt anyone takes you seriously anyway.
I REALLY MEAN that you are so illogical, and willfully blind that it is becoming very hard for me to continue to view your dishonest character attacks as not being purposefully malicious.

[Brocktoon]

Well lets look at an example.

You have a certain amount of people who (in their minds) believe that a developing human is not a living human person.

There are a certain amount who do believe a human (in the fetus stage or toddler etc) is a living human person.

The fact of the matter is BOTH sides ARE trying to 'infringe' or 'impose' or 'inhibit' their beliefs on society (and the opposing group included)

Now if I said to you "I have 'no problem' with you believing the fetus is non-human - just as long as you dont infringe on its rights"

?

Well actually I DO have a problem with you thinking its a non-human and I certainly DO want to infringe on your rights and lifestyle whereever it involves killing them!

Yes.. I DO want my beliefs to be accepted by 'The State' and enforced by law!

But guess what?

SO DO THE NON_HUMAN BELIEVERS!

They DO WANT to force me to live with an abortion clinic in my neighbourhood and they DO intend to enforce this by law.

But this is why we started democracies in the first place.

[thumontico]

I never claimed that I don't have a problem with your beliefs, I said that I don't have a problem with you believing them so long as it doesn't affect others negatively.

[Brocktoon]

Oh why thank you Thumbotico.
I was hoping you would let me know my boundaries and Im sure other people are grateful you are taking a stand for them.

See, there's 'the rub' for your belief system.
You are informing others of where the 'line' should or should not be crossed 'affect others negatively'.
?
So is it YOU who will determine what is 'negative'?
Im pretty sure you dont believe in 'Negative' or 'Positive' when it comes to morality, values and belief systems?

YOU may have decided that same-gender marriage rights are 'positive' for those couples.
YOU decide that the citizenry SHOULD accomodate that with their tax dollars (labour) and GIVE these privilages (whether they like it or not).

But according to your belief system - if the majority of people declare it as having no value .. then it (temporarily and for that society) is now 'Wrong'.
It could be 'Right' later.

In fact.. according to you, 'Negativity' is a meaningless concept anyway.
At least.. its 'Totally Subjective'.

YOU are going to subjectively determine what is 'Negative' and what is not?

See... this isnt a dilema for anyone else who understands that there is a 'Right' and 'Wrong' written forever by the Author of everything that exists.

I cant see how you can even begin to unravel and work through your dilema.
It seems like you are in a self-contradictory, unworkable philosophy?

[BlackGuardXIII]

I never claimed that I don't have a problem with your beliefs, I said that I don't have a problem with you believing them so long as it doesn't affect others negatively.I thought that was what you meant.
His faith is no matter until it -vely, (I hope we can assume we agree on a meaning for negative), infringes on others.

[Brocktoon]

Does this include Thumbotico's belief (faith) in a Godless Universe?

Does this include BlackG's beliefs (faith) in a wacky weird Universe?

I bet it doesnt. I bet that Atheism is not considered a faith and therefore 'not counted' when it infringes on someone else 'negatively' (which according to Athiest Faith doesnt actually exist)?

[Brocktoon]

BTW.. anyone has some problem with a MAN talking about abortion - please feel free to justify why you should feel 'irked' about it.

If your a MAN being 'irked' about it - then try and explain where you get off saying so in the first place yourself.

[thumontico]

Why do you insist on spelling my name incorrectly?

I would say that an individual that values life cannot righteously say that it is moral to destroy a living being (human or nonhuman). That being said I would consider it immoral to have an abortion after 6 weeks when brain activity appears.

Please don't label me a social conservative, that to me, would be worse than death.

[Brocktoon]

I dont insist on spelling your name Thumbotico.. I thought thats what it was.
Thumbontico,
I have no idea why you would determine anything 'immoral' or 'moral' anyway.
Including destroying a living being.

Having said that - I dont by into this Americocentric (or other cultures version) of 'Social Conservative' or 'Fiscal Conservative' .. 'as if' .. we all have to place ourselves in these pre-conceived groupings.

You would even be surprised how many narrow-minded little drones in these forums have 'picked' some American Media Designated 'Label' or 'Box' for ME.

In my case, I think social liberalism (as we see it today) is as FASCIST and Narrow-Minded 'Fundy' hypocrisy as can be!

I happen to think the 'Free martket Capitalists' are the most disgusting group of humans on the planet.

Im not even close to fitting in with those 'Moral Majority' types and quite frankly I wouldnt bother turning around to meet your Jerry Falwells.
... Mind You - I will give him credit for one of the most sensible and fantastic quotes of the year [of which you deliberately shortened]:

"But you've got to kill the terrorists before the killing stops. And I'm for the president to chase them all over the world. If it takes 10 years, blow them all away in the name of the Lord."

[Kharakov]

See... this isnt a dilema for anyone else who understands that there is a 'Right' and 'Wrong' written forever by the Author of everything that exists.
Right is whatever has been done, wrong is the possibility of alternate action that has never been done. People are made (in the sense created) to do what they do, even murderers and faithless idiots.

[Brocktoon]

I dont agree with you Kharakov.

People certainly have the Free Will and ability to choose.

Jesus would certainly disagree with you too (presumably for much more enlightened reasons than I do).
He certainly appealed to people to make a choice and to decide.
"Who do you say I am?"

He seems to be under the impression people CAN choose.
It might be true that He ALSO knows what choice they will eventually make, but, that does not change the fact they can choose.

In anycase.. Thumbonotico does not believe in any moral 'right' or 'wrong' in any 'real' sense.
Only based on popular opinion and majority.
Correct me if Im wrong?
This seems to be what you have indicated in your posts?

[BlackGuardXIII]

Does this include Thumbotico's belief (faith) in a Godless Universe?

Does this include BlackG's beliefs (faith) in a wacky weird Universe?

I bet it doesnt. I bet that Atheism is not considered a faith and therefore 'not counted' when it infringes on someone else 'negatively' (which according to Athiest Faith doesnt actually exist)?
Well, I hope you didn't bet much.
You bet wrong.
Brocktoon, specifically what about my faith do you consider wacky and weird?
It makes equally as much sense, logically, as your 'faith' does.

[BlackGuardXIII]

BTW.. anyone has some problem with a MAN talking about abortion - please feel free to justify why you should feel 'irked' about it.

If your a MAN being 'irked' about it - then try and explain where you get off saying so in the first place yourself.
I am not irked, and have no problem. My feeling is a man's view is totally meaningless since his words about abortion, never have to be backed up. Sure, say you're anti-choice forever. You and I will never know if you'd stand by them since you know you don't have to. It makes it too easy to criticize, when one is safely doing so with the full knowledge no one can make you back it up.
Your opinion is sincere, and your point taken, but it is an opinion applying only to others and not to yourself, which makes your point moot.

[Brocktoon]

For starters.. Abortions are NOT something 'Women' do (as if they were all a group with some concensus).
Just as many women are Anti-Abortion as any other grouping of people would be.

Secondly.
You may not have noticed this but ALL BABIES ARE MADE UP FROM ONE MAN AND ONE WOMAN.
A MAN always has 50% to do with that baby being in that womb in the first place.

Thirdly - HALF of all babies being aborted ARE MALE BABIES OF WHICH YOU AND I (MEN) Avoided but could have been through.

and for a bonus 4th point: MOST of the Doctors pulling Fetus's out of wombs ARE MEN.

In any case... IF the baby IS a Human Being, then gender has absolutely nothing to do with this anyway.
A female judge and jury can send a MAN to Jail for killing another MAN and nowhere do we concern ourselves with whether the Judge should keep shut about it 'because he can never be a man'

[BlackGuardXIII]

For starters.. Abortions are NOT something 'Women' do (as if they were all a group with some concensus).
Just as many women are Anti-Abortion as any other grouping of people would be.

Secondly.
You may not have noticed this but ALL BABIES ARE MADE UP FROM ONE MAN AND ONE WOMAN.
A MAN always has 50% to do with that baby being in that womb in the first place.

Thirdly - HALF of all babies being aborted ARE MALE BABIES OF WHICH YOU AND I (MEN) Avoided but could have been through.

and for a bonus 4th point: MOST of the Doctors pulling Fetus's out of wombs ARE MEN.

In any case... IF the baby IS a Human Being, then gender has absolutely nothing to do with this anyway.
A female judge and jury can send a MAN to Jail for killing another MAN and nowhere do we concern ourselves with whether the Judge should keep shut about it 'because he can never be a man'You sir, are a fool. Your last point re: female jury shouts your folly.
You assume that your example is the same, it is absolutely not so.
Abortion is something a man will never have performed on his body.
Your stupid judge and jury point is totally irrelevent, since the 'crime', can be just as easily committed by either sex.

You clearly want a return to the old back alley coathanger days.
How loving.

[thumontico]

You are wrong Brocktoon concerning my belief as usual. My view is that morality has no ultimate truth. That is no objective source from which it is certainly clear. That is not to say that morality cannot be agreed upon and practiced within a willing society of individuals. Quite to the contrary about the popular opinion bit. Morality is completely subjective.

[Brocktoon]

You sir, are a fool. Your last point re: female jury shouts your folly.
You assume that your example is the same, it is absolutely not so.
Abortion is something a man will never have performed on his body.
Your stupid judge and jury point is totally irrelevent, since the 'crime', can be just as easily committed by either sex.
You just re-explained my intended point back to me.

IF indeed the baby is a living human being - then gender has absolutely nothing to do with it.

As you so cleverly derived from my example - trying a murder case has zero to do with the genders of ANYthing.

Whether its a MAN killing the baby OR a woman makes no difference to MEN or WOMEN who disagree with it.

To make it even clearer - IF they did find a way to get men pregnant - it still would not change anything.
A Woman could just as easily be rightfully upset about a MAN aborting his MALE baby, regardles if she is a WOMAN or not.
Her being a woman has NOTHING to do with her rightful concern about a human life (male of female).


You clearly want a return to the old back alley coathanger days.
How loving.
You mean where people pulled the baby out of the womb using a coathanger instead of using forceps?

I guess I didnt specify that Im not just disgusted by smashing the babies skull first (what abortion clinics do) THEN pulling it out with a metal forceps - IM ALSO, disgusted by people using coathangers.

A better question is - why would you have any problem with using a Coat hanger instead of forceps?

Did someone threaten you.. they said 'Either you let me do this or I will do something even worse to the fetus"

Wow.. Give me your lunch money.. or else I will do something even WORSE after school!

[Brocktoon]

You are wrong Brocktoon concerning my belief as usual. My view is that morality has no ultimate truth. That is no objective source from which it is certainly clear. That is not to say that morality cannot be agreed upon and practiced within a willing society of individuals. Quite to the contrary about the popular opinion bit. Morality is completely subjective.
I was right as usual.
This is what I suggested you believed in.

Of course, its only your subjective opinion this is true, but Im sure you will be continuing to have faith.

At least we are clear on what you believe is absolute truth (that there is no absolute truth except that one)

[thumontico]

His point is, I believe, that women will always have abortions whether its legal or not.

I wonder, if a Mother and a Father are best for raising a child (Christian arguement against same-sex adoption) how does Neither stack up? That would be the result of placing a child in an orphanage, inevitable without abortion.

[Brocktoon]

Being Adopted is not such a bad thing folks.

anyway.. IF you believe that murder is 'wrong' (and again.. this might not apply to you Thumbontico) - then there is no debate about adoption, foster children, orphanages etc etc.

You cant do what is wrong, and while growing up in an orphanage is not always 'great fun' - its not being killed either.

So my question is - Should we visit an Orphanage and call the children into a room so you can tell them they would be better off if they were never born?

Do you want to tell them that?

[Lucy_In_The_Sky]

The title of this thread made me think of something I read in the Quran:

1 Say: O disbelievers!
2 I worship not that which ye worship;
3 Nor worship ye that which I worship.
4 And I shall not worship that which ye worship.
5 Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
6 Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion.

Not very relevant perhaps, but it sort of explains my view on religion. Except for the fact that I don't see people who have another faith as disbelievers.

[thumontico]

That is not the issue Brocktoon.

[Kharakov]

I dont agree with you Kharakov.Good.
People certainly have the Free Will and ability to choose. Some people are too stupid to realize that the circumstances they are in mold their decisions.
Jesus would certainly disagree with you too (presumably for much more enlightened reasons than I do). Jesus certainly would not.
He certainly appealed to people to make a choice and to decide. The choice being offered is part of what influences the outcome.
He seems to be under the impression people CAN choose.
It might be true that He ALSO knows what choice they will eventually make, but, that does not change the fact they can choose. So what then? Offering the choice obviously has the outcome that God intended- so whatever you choose it is what God intended for you to choose. Or do you believe that God did not create you to pick correctly?

[Kharakov]

anyway.. IF you believe that murder is 'wrong' (and again.. this might not apply to you Thumbontico) - then there is no debate about adoption, foster children, orphanages etc etc.

If you believe that murder is wrong, than you have judged God for all the deaths that have occured since the beginning of time. Good Job! I am sure God is glad that you disagree with God's plan (because this is part of God's plan).

[Brocktoon]

Kharakov.. IF God is going to USE all the free will choices to ultimately work his plan (and we seem to agree on this inevitable conclusion) this does NOT require or need choices to be predestined for the 'decision makers'.

People plainly and simply have free will to choose right and wrong.

Jesus may very well have known the 'Good Thief' would choose to honour God... but this does NOT mean Christ needed, insisted or willed that choice to be made.

His ultimate plan would have 'used' either choice to His fulfillment and glory yes, but this does NOT NECESSITATE Influencing or 'predestining' the Thiefs Choice.

I cant understand why that is a problem for you?

[roxycheer]

Why do so many people bow down to this 'GOD' as we know it?...When he is not so superior, so great, so loving in return...take a look at the world around you...if you believe he created this world...then you must to believe that he is an evil man.

[BlackGuardXIII]

A better question is - why would you have any problem with using a Coat hanger instead of forceps?
Did someone threaten you.. they said 'Either you let me do this or I will do something even worse to the fetus"

Posted by Brocktoon

I prefer the legal, clinic-based abortion over the unregulated, coat hanger days, becuz unlike you, i find the life and safety of the woman very important.
other than the miniscule threat presented by your oft attempted character assassination of me, no.

[Brocktoon]

Why do so many people bow down to this 'GOD' as we know it?...When he is not so superior, so great, so loving in return...take a look at the world around you...if you believe he created this world...then you must to believe that he is an evil man.
No.
We must not believe he is responsible for the world around us (which also is filled with astonishing comforts, joy and pleasure).

This world around us demonstrates we have free will.
We most definately create most all of our own problems because of selfish decisions and choices we make.

Roxycheer - The God YOU wish for is the WORST of all possiblities.
What if this God makes food appear in your hand.
Makes Cars stop in mid-air when we drive them off cliffs?
Even zaps a criminals mind to 'force it to stop' whenever bad is attempted?

Then you, me and everyone else just became reduced to 'puppets' or even 'children' who never know 'why' to love, 'how' to choose good or bad.
We become a cruel joke - including your concern about others.. that would just be a program you were 'made' to think.

The god you wish for is the worst god of all

[Brocktoon]

A better question is - why would you have any problem with using a Coat hanger instead of forceps?
Did someone threaten you.. they said 'Either you let me do this or I will do something even worse to the fetus"

Posted by Brocktoon

I prefer the legal, clinic-based abortion over the unregulated, coat hanger days, becuz unlike you, i find the life and safety of the woman very important.
other than the miniscule threat presented by your oft attempted character assassination of me, no.
Let Gangsters carry high-powered Rifles.
If you dont...
... You are FOR slower, more painful stabbing deaths?

Wha? Your FOR Stabbing people to death??
No?

Then let them choose 303's to murder their victims!

[BlackGuardXIII]

Let Gangsters carry high-powered Rifles.
If you dont...
... You are FOR slower, more painful stabbing deaths?

Wha? Your FOR Stabbing people to death??
No?

Then let them choose 303's to murder their victims!
right.................good point.........? Though I can't see the connection, I am sure it relates to what I said somehow. Glad to see you do not dispute my point about your attitudes towards the lives of the women.
I would be against gangsters even carrying knives myself, for that matter, I am against gangsters period. I myself, would be against any method of killing that is anything less than being as humane as possible.
I sometimes wish there was some way I could learn your views on any of the questions you ask and points you raise.

[Brocktoon]

*BlackGuard Stands in the face-off circle in GM Place*

BG13 to crowd: "See where I am?"

Crowd: "YOU are in the centre of GM Place!"

BG13: "What do you mean.. Im here arent I?!"

Crowd: "YES.. YES YOU ARE!"

BG13: "Why are you saying that? Im down here!"

.........

Brought to you by IGA Supermarkets and your friends at CKNW

[Occam]

No.
We must not believe he is responsible for the world around us (which also is filled with astonishing comforts, joy and pleasure).

This world around us demonstrates we have free will.
We most definately create most all of our own problems because of selfish decisions and choices we make.

Roxycheer - The God YOU wish for is the WORST of all possiblities.
What if this God makes food appear in your hand.
Makes Cars stop in mid-air when we drive them off cliffs?
Even zaps a criminals mind to 'force it to stop' whenever bad is attempted?

Then you, me and everyone else just became reduced to 'puppets' or even 'children' who never know 'why' to love, 'how' to choose good or bad.
We become a cruel joke - including your concern about others.. that would just be a program you were 'made' to think.

The god you wish for is the worst god of all
Brocktroon.

So, which god do you wish for?

Occam

[BlackGuardXIII]

could someone explain that post about me at GM Place?

I am so lost trying to catch the meaning, and I would like to know what it means.

[Brocktoon]

could someone explain that post about me at GM Place?

I am so lost trying to catch the meaning, and I would like to know what it means.
Exactly!

[BlackGuardXIII]

Exactly!
Very helpful response to my plea for help, ya rat bastard!
.
There once was a boy named Brocktoon,
An arrogant, silly maroon.
But soon this buffoon, who acts like a loon
Quits being a goon, starts to croon a new tune
And I'll no more see this baboon.

[Brocktoon]

There once was a boy named BlackG
Who like to rhyme words you see
His choice was Maroon
He used it too soon,
'Cause a colour, a flare or a sailor is not me

BG13 - were you describing me as a Vancouver Maroon or a Montreal Maroon?
If so - then I would have to credit you with keen Hockey Club Trivia
(although, why Im a 'silly arrogant' Hockey Player is still odd)

[roxycheer]

What if this God makes food appear in your hand.
Makes Cars stop in mid-air when we drive them off cliffs?
Even zaps a criminals mind to 'force it to stop' whenever bad is attempted?

Then you, me and everyone else just became reduced to 'puppets' or even 'children' who never know 'why' to love, 'how' to choose good or bad.
We become a cruel joke
wow...i never thought of it in that way...thanx!

[squawkers7]

if anyone is having trouble figurin out which religion that beliefs lie in then go to http://www.selectsmart.com/RELIGION I have taken it a few times and depending on the importance I place my answers I came up with different values in different religions. This was my 3rd try at it...my 2nd try is posted in the thread about inventing your own religion (I think)

Your Results:

1. Secular Humanism (100%)
Browse Secular Humanism related books. Click here for info

2. Unitarian Universalism (100%)
Browse Unitarian Universalism related books. Click here for info

3. Theravada Buddhism (98%)
Browse Theravada Buddhism related books. Click here for info

4. Liberal Quakers (93%)
Browse Liberal Quakers related books. Click here for info

5. Taoism (81%)
Browse Taoism related books. Click here for info

6. Mahayana Buddhism (78%)
Browse Mahayana Buddhism related books. Click here for info

[BlackGuardXIII]

Your Results:

1.

Mahayana Buddhism (100%)

2.

Theravada Buddhism (89%)

3.

Liberal Quakers (89%)

4.

Unitarian Universalism (87%)

5.

Neo-Pagan (84%)


6.

New Age (81%)


7.

Jainism (76%)


8.

Hinduism (75%)


9.

Taoism (74%)

10.

Mainline - Liberal Christian Protestants (69%)

11.

Bah᧭ Faith (65%)


12.

Orthodox Quaker (63%)


13.

Sikhism (61%)


14.

Secular Humanism (58%)


15.

Reform Judaism (56%)


16.

New Thought (55%)


17.

Scientology (54%)

·
18.

Christian Science (Church of Christ, Scientist) (52%)

(http://www.selectsmart.com/RELIGION/CS.html)

19.

Orthodox Judaism (48%)


20.

Seventh Day Adventist (43%)

·
21.

Islam (42%)

·
22.

Mainline - Conservative Christian Protestant (42%)


23.

Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) (40%)


24.

Non-theist (37%)


25.

Eastern Orthodox (32%)

26.

Roman Catholic (32%)


27.

Jehovah's Witness (28%)

[BlackGuardXIII]

There once was a boy named BlackG
Who like to rhyme words you see
His choice was Maroon
He used it too soon,
'Cause a colour, a flare or a sailor is not me

BG13 - were you describing me as a Vancouver Maroon or a Montreal Maroon?
If so - then I would have to credit you with keen Hockey Club Trivia
(although, why Im a 'silly arrogant' Hockey Player is still odd)
I have to say that upon researching the definitions of Maroon, I should not have used it. I did so based on the context I had heard it used on tv, of all places.

I apologize to the Maroons of the Carribean, I did not intend to associate you with this person, and I do not see him as being at all like you.

[thumontico]

What is 'Bah? Faith'? (#11)

[squawkers7]

7.

Jainism (76%)


13.

Sikhism (61%)






[/QUOTE] What are those 2?

[Brocktoon]

I have to say that upon researching the definitions of Maroon, I should not have used it. I did so based on the context I had heard it used on tv, of all places.

I apologize to the Maroons of the Carribean, I did not intend to associate you with this person, and I do not see him as being at all like you.
I think you meant 'They' not 'him'?

In anycase, I appreciate your clarification BG!
Its true that I am in no way like the Sailors Marooned on Caribbean Islands, although Im sure there are many similarities in some cases.

... Oley Moley you are funny sometimes BG13!!! :D !

[Lucy_In_The_Sky]

Your Results:

1. Liberal Quakers (100%)
Browse Liberal Quakers related books. Click here for info

2. Hinduism (99%)
Browse Hinduism related books. Click here for info

3. Bahá'í Faith (95%)
Browse Bahá'í Faith related books. Click here for info

4. Jainism (93%)
Browse Jainism related books. Click here for info

5. Mahayana Buddhism (93%)
Browse Mahayana Buddhism related books. Click here for info

6. Unitarian Universalism (93%)
Browse Unitarian Universalism related books. Click here for info

7. Sikhism (92%)
Browse Sikhism related books. Click here for info

8. Orthodox Judaism (91%)
Browse Orthodox Judaism related books. Click here for info

9. Reform Judaism (90%)
Browse Reform Judaism related books. Click here for info

10. Islam (85%)
Browse Islam related books. Click here for info

Yeah, it seems to work :).

[Occam]

Your Results:

1. Liberal Quakers (100%)
Browse Liberal Quakers related books. Click here for info

2. Hinduism (99%)
Browse Hinduism related books. Click here for info

3. Bahá'í Faith (95%)
Browse Bahá'í Faith related books. Click here for info

4. Jainism (93%)
Browse Jainism related books. Click here for info

5. Mahayana Buddhism (93%)
Browse Mahayana Buddhism related books. Click here for info

6. Unitarian Universalism (93%)
Browse Unitarian Universalism related books. Click here for info

7. Sikhism (92%)
Browse Sikhism related books. Click here for info

8. Orthodox Judaism (91%)
Browse Orthodox Judaism related books. Click here for info

9. Reform Judaism (90%)
Browse Reform Judaism related books. Click here for info

10. Islam (85%)
Browse Islam related books. Click here for info

Yeah, it seems to work :).

That 838%


There is only 100% ...
Dont use percentages in belief...
They dont work..
Percentages are variables in methodology.
NOT FACT.

ALL human religious belief starts with 0%
What evidence elevates it from there?

Occam

[Brocktoon]

99% of Psychiatrists disagree with Occam.
(hehe.. i just made up that percentage.. its actually ALL Psychiatrists ;)

Seriously though,,, people who study these things will often talk about how Human Beings are 'Hard-Wired' to believe in a Creator or 'Father' God(s) who have some 'Communication' with them (in some way).

This is sometimes given as Scientific Evidence for the existance of God, since it definately appears that People are 'built' with this inherint trait.

Pascal made a comparable and famous statement "There is a God-Shaped Vacuum" in all men.

So Occams assertion (which is based on what evidence I dont know?) does not seem to square with the Professionals anyway?

Why did you say that Occam?

[Occam]

Brocktoon 99% of Psychiatrists disagree with Occam.
hehe.. i just made up that percentage.. its actually ALL Psychiatrists ;)

Seriously though,,, people who study these things will often talk about how Human Beings are 'Hard-Wired' to believe in a Creator or 'Father' God(s) who have some 'Communication' with them (in some way).

Rubbish
[and psychiatry has nothing to do with philosophy]
Occam bows to NO preconcieved belief if it is not backed by existant phenomena.


This is sometimes given as Scientific Evidence for the existance of God, since it definately appears that People are 'built' with this inherint trait.

Pascal made a comparable and famous statement "There is a God-Shaped Vacuum" in all men.

So Occams assertion (which is based on what evidence I dont know?) does not seem to square with the Professionals anyway?

There ARE NO PROFESSIONALS IN THIS QUESTION.
Each human perspective is JUST AS VALID AS ANY OTHER.

Why did you say that Occam?

Say What?

Occam

[Brocktoon]

Like I say, most Professionals disagree with Occam.
Im sure there are a few who do agree with your theory though?

There were quite a few discussions, papers and theses written on this whole subject around the late 90's and it was sometimes dubbed 'The God Gene' or 'Hard Wired Faith'

Psychiatrists, Psychologists and all of 'Academia' did (Gernerally) agree humans were 'by nature' hard-wired to include a God in their mental, psychological 'make-up'.

One of the more successful books on it ->
http://www.the-tidings.com/2001/0629/godbook.htm
or
http://www.brainconnection.com/content/174_1

This is going beyond the OBVIOUS evidence - that peoples always, in all the world, in all human history always hold some type of 'Faith' in something 'Spiritual'.

{Im not sure if Occam noticed that or what?]

Unfortunately for us - there are not too many 'Feral' Children to study, so its hard to say what happens if a human has absolutely no influence from the outside world.

BTW.. I disagree with your assertion that each human perspective is 'just as valid as any others'.
That is not necessarily so.
Some people have poor vision and their perspective is less valid than others with good vision eh?

BTWP2..... Dont think Im making an 'Appeal to Authority' argument for one theory or another Occam.
Im just pointing out that you are relatively unique in your belief that Faith is exclusive to conditioning.

Besides that, I do happen to agree with the majority (in this case) and not you.

[BlackGuardXIII]

BTW.. I disagree with your assertion that each human perspective is 'just as valid as any others'.
That is not necessarily so.
Some people have poor vision and their perspective is less valid than others with good vision eh?
Brocktoon

Totally disagree. Helen Keller could neither see nor hear, and you infer that therefore her perspective would be at the very bottom of the list of valid perspectives. I say she had a perspective that is hard to criticise. It is one that all people would do well to learn about, even you.
I have a harder time accepting that my views are anywhere near as valid as hers, but I do, humbly, and respectfully, believe they are.

Occam, you honour me by proclaiming that I am your friend. Thank you.

[Brocktoon]

Oh BlackGuard.. *sigh*

Stick with the physical comparison... Helen Kellers Vision (or lack of) IS LESS VALID THAN SOMEONE WHO CAN SEE!!!!!!!!!!

Helen Keller WAS BLIND.

By definition her Sight is INVALID!!!!!!!!!!!!!
*Slaps BG13 with a Carp repeatedly*

...................
Stop and move to the SPIRITUAL COMPARISON
..................

Some people are very young, stupid and have no real experience dealing with Spiritual things.
In fact, they may have been raised to believe their is not such thing as 'Spirituality'.

I would NOT GIVE THEIR VIEWS on Spirituality and Faith AS MUCH credit as I would, sayyyy... The Dalai Lama, A Hindu Guru , the Pope or even someone who was simply willing to consider these things.

Helen Keller is NOT 'as good' as me at appraising colours.
In a 'Like' way
An Idiot Teen with no care about Faith is not 'equally valid' in their views on Faith as someone who practices Faith.

To put your own beliefs to the test...
Ask yourself if you think Brocktoons perceptions are Equally Valid to Occams?

Occam DOES NOT THINK BROCKTOONS BELIEFS ARE EQUALLY VALID TO HIS OWN!

[BlackGuardXIII]

you could have been more specific, brocktoon, rather than just say perspective.
Sure, a deaf person cannot hear, you are right. A blind one can't see, as you have concluded. You seem to have that concept down pat. I just didn't clue in to the fact that you were stating the painfully obvious, and still do not see the relevence of those points.

You put me to the test, yet you will not accept my answer.
Occam and I share far more similar beliefs than you and I do. I think that is quite clear. But, to answer your question,
'Ask yourself if you think Brocktoons perceptions are Equally Valid to Occams?'
Yes, as I have repeated ad nauseaum, all are equally valid........sigh.
This is possible since we all are experiencing different realities, and have unique life experiences, lessons to learn, and paths to follow. I cannot follow your path, nor you mine. Just because my path is nearer to Occam's than it is to yours, in no way invalidates your views.
They are the right ones for you, they are true, and they are no more or less valid than anyone else's, mine, Occam's, anyones.
You need not reply to say once again that I am wrong.......I heard you the first fifty times.

[Brocktoon]

BG13.. sometimes you are just plain cute and funny ;) !

[BlackGuardXIII]

There was a little old lady who was very spiritual who would step out on her porch every day, raise her arms to the sky and yell, "Praise the Lord."
One day, an atheist bought the house next door to her, and he became very irritated with the spiritual lady. So after a month or so of her yelling, "Praise the Lord" from her porch, he went outside on his porch and yelled back, "There is no Lord."
Yet, the little old lady continued.
One cold, wintry day, when the little old lady couldn't get to the store, she went out on her porch, raised her hands up to the sky and said, "Help me Lord, I have no more money, it's cold, and I have no more food."
The next morning, she went outside, and there were three bags of food on the porch, enough to last her a week. "Praise the Lord," she yelled.
The Atheist stepped out from the bushes and said, "There is no Lord hahaha, I bought those groceries!"
(Hold on...the ending is pretty good!).


The little old lady raised her arms to the sky and said, "Praise the Lord, you sent me groceries and you made the Devil pay for them!"

A college professor, an avowed Atheist, was teaching his class. He shocked several of his students when he flatly stated he was going to
prove there was no God. Addressing the ceiling he shouted: "God, if you are real, then I want you to knock me off this platform. I'll give you 15 minutes!"

The lecture room fell silent. You could have heard a pin fall. Ten minutes went by. Again he taunted God, saying, "Here I am, God. I'm still waiting."

His countdown got down to the last couple of minutes when a Marine - just released from active duty and newly registered in the class - walked up to the professor, hit him full force in the face, and sent him tumbling from his lofty platform. The professor was out cold!
At first, the students were shocked and babbled in confusion. The young Marine took a seat in the front row and sat silent. The class fell silent...waiting.

Eventually, the professor came to, shaken. He looked at the young Marine in the front row. When the professor regained his senses and could
speak he asked: "What's the matter with you? Why did you do that?"

"God was busy. He sent me."

[Brocktoon]

I love that last story LMAO... I expected this was the 'Unbreakable Chalk Stick' story LOL!

Good Stuff!

[BlackGuardXIII]

There was a huge flood and as the town was evacuated, one man stayed behind. When the water was a foot deep, an army truck made one last pass through the streets. They called him to jump aboard, but he replied, "I am not worried, God will save me."

Well, the water rose to 10 feet, and a boat showed up. Seeing him at his second floor window, they implored him to come aboard, but he still replied, " God will save me. "

Later, as the water reached the roof, a rescue helicopter showed up and lowered a rope to him, as he was now on the roof. He refused it, still stating, " God will save me."

The waters rose up over the roof, and he was washed away and drowned. He went to heaven, and when he saw God, he asked Him why He did not save him.



God replied, " I sent you a truck, a boat, a helicopter......"


A man asked God, " Is it not true that a million dollars is like a penny to You?"

God replied " Yes, just as a million years is like a second."

The man continued "Well, could You send me a penny then?"

God answered back, " Certainly, my son, just a second."

[Kharakov]

A man asked God, " Is it not true that a million dollars is like a penny to You?"

God replied " Yes, just as a million years is like a second."

The man continued "Well, could You send me a penny then?"

God answered back, " Certainly, my son, just a second."
This last joke shows how annoying God is. Just like God to tease children...

[TARABELLE]

This is possible since we all are experiencing different realities, and have unique life experiences, lessons to learn, and paths to follow. I cannot follow your path, nor you mine. Just because my path is nearer to Occam's than it is to yours, in no way invalidates your views.
They are the right ones for you, they are true, and they are no more or less valid than anyone else's, mine, Occam's, anyones.

Nicely said! Or as a cliche "hard to judge without walking in their shoes"

[BlackGuardXIII]

A Christian was out hunting one day when a huge Grizzly came out of the woods right in front of him. He backed up and got his rifle up to his eye just as the bear was coming at him. Pulled the trigger.....nothing, checked the safety, off, pulled again, again no go. His gun had jammed and he was cornered against a cliff. The bear swatted the gun away, knocked him to the ground and sat on his chest, licking his lips.

The hunter prayed to God in desperation, "Please let this grizzly bear be a Christian, God, I beg you."
The bear leaned back and lifted his paws off the man's shoulders.
Then he put them together, bent his head down, and growled "Dear Lord, thank you for this food that you have provided for me to eat today. Amen."

[BlackGuardXIII]

Nicely said! Or as a cliche "hard to judge without walking in their shoes"
In a world of individuals, comparison is ludicrous.
Live and let live.
Jack Handy said something similar I think. "Before you judge someone, walk a mile in his shoes.........then you're a mile away, and you have his shoes."

[Brocktoon]

Jack Handy Reference Earns BlackGuard Some Karma!

[BlackGuardXIII]

Jack Handy Reference Earns BlackGuard Some Karma!
So what is a Stuart Smalley quote worth?

"It is easier to put on slippers than to try to carpet the world."

I think I recall you aren't a big fan of Franken, but you must admit the old Franken and Davis stuff was pretty good.

[TARABELLE]

I've read most of this thread with much interest as I have been trying to define my spirituality these days and I cannot offer any insight on par with the knowledge and education of you two. But I can tell you how I stumbled on the spiritual path I have led. I was raised surrounded by Southern Baptists and was attempted to be "saved" by them many, many, many times. A very pushy bunch with the reasoning that they must be that way because of their higher purpose, right? Once, while trying to get me to come and get baptized in their church / religion (accousted in public, btw), I told them that I had been baptized. These representatives of the Baptist church said if I was not baptized in their religion that I would go to hell. I asked what happened to the North American Indians before this religion was brought to them. They go to their own heaven was the answer given by these young people, full of faith. I decided then and there that the "Indian's heaven" was for me, too.