karma has a way of biting you in the ass when you need it

[cerridwen]

Karma makes much more sense to me than this concept of heaven and hell.

The idea that you're punished or rewarded for your life's deeds after you die, like Christian holidays claim, is a decent enough idea but makes little sense.

But karma makes much more sense - not only does karma place you where you deserve to be placed after you die, but it rewards or punishes you while you're still in this plane of existance at the same time.

Don't you think?

[TARABELLE]

I DO think. I truly believe it. I also believe in past lives and a cosmic energy connection between all living things. How about you?

[honeyhannah]

Karma makes much more sense to me than this concept of heaven and hell.

The idea that you're punished or rewarded for your life's deeds after you die, like Christian holidays claim, is a decent enough idea but makes little sense.

But karma makes much more sense - not only does karma place you where you deserve to be placed after you die, but it rewards or punishes you while you're still in this plane of existance at the same time.

Don't you think?
I don't believe karma places us in the place we deserve to be after we die, I think we go to the same place. But I definately believe in karma. And the cosmic energy/ universal energy connection b/t everything that is and was ever here.

[sassure]

Perhaps the only real punishment here is the fact that we won't progress unless we develop. Love energy develops; hate energy disintegrates. Through Love energy we develop and are capable of attaining higher planes of consciousness. And when life turns the lights out, what remains? That consciousness you've been developing, of course. So if you've wallowed in negativity your entire life, your "punishment" may be that, at the time of your death, nothing happens at all......

[honeyhannah]

I don't think we stop existing or stop developing, I think our souls/energy remain. I think just in a much slower pace and on a different plane. I think that this world influences the outer world(or whatever you wanna call it) and vice versa in the different areas of development and state of the spirit.

[cerridwen]

I DO think. I truly believe it. I also believe in past lives and a cosmic energy connection between all living things. How about you?
Very much, Tarabelle... like ripples in a pond, we're all part of a cosmic energy that eternally binds us together, and we go through lifetimes of taking on new forms.

[BlackBillBlake]

Karma makes much more sense to me than this concept of heaven and hell.

The idea that you're punished or rewarded for your life's deeds after you die, like Christian holidays claim, is a decent enough idea but makes little sense.

But karma makes much more sense - not only does karma place you where you deserve to be placed after you die, but it rewards or punishes you while you're still in this plane of existance at the same time.

Don't you think?
I think this is unlikely to impress children in Africa with no food etc, or in Iraq or Palestine. Unless there is a kind of collective national karma, it is hard to see how the innocent vitims of war, famine and disease are responsible for their own circumstances, or that they've been placed 'where they need to be'.

And even in the case of people who seek to do only good, often they receive no 'reward' in this life - indeed, many suffer much more than 'evil-doers', the proverbial 'wicked' who prosper despite their acts.

If there is a law of karma, then its action must be very complex, and it seems to me that individual karma only goes so far, to an extent we are all stuck with huge collective karmas belonging to races, nations, religions, and also there could be a karma of the cells of the body themselves...

[sassure]

The sad reality is that it's difficult to develop good karma when you're living in abject poverty in places like Ethiopia or Iraq....the struggle to survive saps one's energy, drains one's life. Even in our own lives, it's amazing what a toll stress exacts on us spiritually.

Unless there is some charitable force out there that compensates one for a life of misery, most of those who live in poverty are condemned to simply try again in the next lifetime.....which is why the achievement of Mother Teresa is so overwhelming.....

[TARABELLE]

Or maybe, they have influenced their present conditions by actions in past lives.

[cerridwen]

I think this is unlikely to impress children in Africa with no food etc, or in Iraq or Palestine. Unless there is a kind of collective national karma, it is hard to see how the innocent vitims of war, famine and disease are responsible for their own circumstances, or that they've been placed 'where they need to be'.

And even in the case of people who seek to do only good, often they receive no 'reward' in this life - indeed, many suffer much more than 'evil-doers', the proverbial 'wicked' who prosper despite their acts.

If there is a law of karma, then its action must be very complex, and it seems to me that individual karma only goes so far, to an extent we are all stuck with huge collective karmas belonging to races, nations, religions, and also there could be a karma of the cells of the body themselves...
it's all a big pond of karma.... ripples go everywhere...

[underwhelmed]

it may make sense, but the world isnt simple... so why should the answer be simple??

i do trust karma, but i also trust more, just a question i have

[peacefuldevotee]

Tell you a secret: there is a way to transcend karma:
"Whatever you do, do it as an offering to Me " (Bhagavad Gita)

[cerridwen]

Tell you a secret: there is a way to transcend karma:
"Whatever you do, do it as an offering to Me " (Bhagavad Gita)
that's very deep, I like that...

[TrippinBTM]

I think this is unlikely to impress children in Africa with no food etc, or in Iraq or Palestine. Unless there is a kind of collective national karma, it is hard to see how the innocent vitims of war, famine and disease are responsible for their own circumstances, or that they've been placed 'where they need to be'.

And even in the case of people who seek to do only good, often they receive no 'reward' in this life - indeed, many suffer much more than 'evil-doers', the proverbial 'wicked' who prosper despite their acts.

If there is a law of karma, then its action must be very complex, and it seems to me that individual karma only goes so far, to an extent we are all stuck with huge collective karmas belonging to races, nations, religions, and also there could be a karma of the cells of the body themselves...
There's a few possibilities here. The first is that these people racked up bad karma in previous lives and are paying for it now. Kind of a cold theory, but possible.

The second is that these people are suffering under the hands of those around them, they are innocent victims put there by greedy warlords, presidents, world corporations that don't distribute wealth, only pain.

The third, going with the idea in the second instance, is that karma is only one of many influences. I think in buddhism there are 8 such influences, including weather and a bunch of other stuff, and karma.

But, what difference does it make? I mean, none of us can change the past, and no one can ever say for sure why these people suffer. It sucks to say they deserve it; maybe they do. But they also deserve help, because we all battle karma, we all have pain. The past is over, and while these people may or may not be reaping what they have sown, they are still beautiful human beings who will always have the ability to improve their future and present, to create good karma and live the good life. I hope I'm being clear.

[BlackBillBlake]

There's a few possibilities here. The first is that these people racked up bad karma in previous lives and are paying for it now. Kind of a cold theory, but possible.

The second is that these people are suffering under the hands of those around them, they are innocent victims put there by greedy warlords, presidents, world corporations that don't distribute wealth, only pain.

The third, going with the idea in the second instance, is that karma is only one of many influences. I think in buddhism there are 8 such influences, including weather and a bunch of other stuff, and karma.

But, what difference does it make? I mean, none of us can change the past, and no one can ever say for sure why these people suffer. It sucks to say they deserve it; maybe they do. But they also deserve help, because we all battle karma, we all have pain. The past is over, and while these people may or may not be reaping what they have sown, they are still beautiful human beings who will always have the ability to improve their future and present, to create good karma and live the good life. I hope I'm being clear.
Personally, I agree we can't change the past - all we can do is try to act in the right way now. What I'm saying in my previous post is that despite the will of the individual to do good things, there are forces of collective karma that obstruct and limit this.

[TrippinBTM]

Personally, I agree we can't change the past - all we can do is try to act in the right way now. What I'm saying in my previous post is that despite the will of the individual to do good things, there are forces of collective karma that obstruct and limit this.
As to your previous post, I don't know if there is collective karma. Just lots of negetive energy, if you will, that perpetrates itself and can spread. But "the united states of america" doesn't have its own karma, because the USA is just an idea, it's the individuals that make it. The only thing we can ever hope to do anything about is our own personal karma, and spread more positive energies into the mix. Be that light unto the world, you know? Hope others see you shine. I think that's why large group meditations are so powerful, because the collective energy is all so positive. These things can have discernable effects, which is why an unconscious society just perpetuates its unconsciousness.

We must also keep in mind that there is more to life than karma. Sometimes, bad shit just happens. Really, stuff happens and we call it bad shit...for example, a hurricane isn't bad in itself, only when it negatively affects human lives do we call it bad. I think it's mostly our perceptions that hurt us, not the things happening. If we see that hurricane for what it is, a natural weather pattern in the tropics, and grew to respect it, not hate or fear it, maybe we wouldn't be so bad off. We might stop building on barrier islands, which are just big sandbars, or stop building on low swampy land. I don't mean to belittle or insult the people who suffer such things (my grandparents live in a mobile home in central Florida, right in the path of this latest one).

[BlackBillBlake]

As to your previous post, I don't know if there is collective karma. Just lots of negetive energy, if you will, that perpetrates itself and can spread. But "the united states of america" doesn't have its own karma, because the USA is just an idea, it's the individuals that make it. The only thing we can ever hope to do anything about is our own personal karma, and spread more positive energies into the mix. Be that light unto the world, you know? Hope others see you shine. I think that's why large group meditations are so powerful, because the collective energy is all so positive. These things can have discernable effects, which is why an unconscious society just perpetuates its unconsciousness.

We must also keep in mind that there is more to life than karma. Sometimes, bad shit just happens. Really, stuff happens and we call it bad shit...for example, a hurricane isn't bad in itself, only when it negatively affects human lives do we call it bad. I think it's mostly our perceptions that hurt us, not the things happening. If we see that hurricane for what it is, a natural weather pattern in the tropics, and grew to respect it, not hate or fear it, maybe we wouldn't be so bad off. We might stop building on barrier islands, which are just big sandbars, or stop building on low swampy land. I don't mean to belittle or insult the people who suffer such things (my grandparents live in a mobile home in central Florida, right in the path of this latest one).
I hope your grandparents will be ok - saw a report on these storms on tv news earlier, they look bad.
Natural phenomena like storms are a collective karma we all have to face just by being born here.
I'm not sure we're using the same definition of karma - I would say it is karma that has led to the existence of negative energy as you describe it.
As regards collective karma, if a group of people act in concert for certain ends, this is sure to lead to karma for the individuals and the group. I would say that the united states of america does have a very complex set of karmas!
Collective actions lead to results which require a collective response.

[TrippinBTM]

I hope your grandparents will be ok - saw a report on these storms on tv news earlier, they look bad.
Natural phenomena like storms are a collective karma we all have to face just by being born here.
I'm not sure we're using the same definition of karma - I would say it is karma that has led to the existence of negative energy as you describe it.
As regards collective karma, if a group of people act in concert for certain ends, this is sure to lead to karma for the individuals and the group. I would say that the united states of america does have a very complex set of karmas!
Collective actions lead to results which require a collective response.
Well, that's the difference between me and you; I don't see the storm as a bringer of negetive energy. It's just our reactions to an event that is going to be either negetive or positive (or neutral).

And while I see your point about group actions, each person still has their own choice, and thus their own karma. Just because a lot of people choose to act wrongly and thus create bad karma, doesn't mean it's collective karma. It's just people creating their individual karma in a group.

Your last line troubles me, though. I'll have to think on this for a while.

[openmind]

what i feel his saying in essance is americas carma
requires muslams hindus budists athiests to react against itWell, that's the difference between me and you; I don't see the storm as a bringer of negetive energy. It's just our reactions to an event that is going to be either negetive or positive (or neutral).

And while I see your point about group actions, each person still has their own choice, and thus their own karma. Just because a lot of people choose to act wrongly and thus create bad karma, doesn't mean it's collective karma. It's just people creating their individual karma in a group.

Your last line troubles me, though. I'll have to think on this for a while.

[BlackBillBlake]

Your last line troubles me, though. I'll have to think on this for a while.
What I mean covers huge areas, but an example or two - neuclear waste management - if it causes an environmental disaster in the future, then where is the choice of the individual not to die of radiation sickness? And only through a collective effort extending into the distant future can it be kept safe.
Another one - racial discrimination. Being black means you are in a group that gets negative discrimination, regardless of individual merit and so on.
That to me represents collective karma.
As to what you say about the energy of the storm - it isn't 'bad' in itself, of course, but is from the viewpoint of human society - and it's part and parcel of the collective karma of this whole culture how they'll respond to this or indeed, to anything else.

God Bless.

[Cosmic Butterfly]

I love all of you. Bless you and keep trying.

[TrippinBTM]

What I mean covers huge areas, but an example or two - neuclear waste management - if it causes an environmental disaster in the future, then where is the choice of the individual not to die of radiation sickness? And only through a collective effort extending into the distant future can it be kept safe.
Another one - racial discrimination. Being black means you are in a group that gets negative discrimination, regardless of individual merit and so on.
That to me represents collective karma.
As to what you say about the energy of the storm - it isn't 'bad' in itself, of course, but is from the viewpoint of human society - and it's part and parcel of the collective karma of this whole culture how they'll respond to this or indeed, to anything else.
Well, such things are beyond our control (accidental contamination) and may or may not be karma. Who can say? It matters how we deal with it when it comes; our reaction is the key. Obviously it would be good to limit contamination by stopping it before it occurs

Are you saying black people are paying for some past event that they collectively did? Some evil done by black people? Not impossible, but rather unlikely in my eyes. Karma is not the only cause of suffering. Others can lay it on our shoulders by their negative choices in life. But again, who can say if it's karma or not? All we can do is try to do better, for ourselves and others.

(and I don't mean to imply you are being racist, i understand your point given in that example, though I disagree)

[BlackBillBlake]

Well, such things are beyond our control (accidental contamination) and may or may not be karma. Who can say? It matters how we deal with it when it comes; our reaction is the key. Obviously it would be good to limit contamination by stopping it before it occurs

Are you saying black people are paying for some past event that they collectively did? Some evil done by black people? Not impossible, but rather unlikely in my eyes. Karma is not the only cause of suffering. Others can lay it on our shoulders by their negative choices in life. But again, who can say if it's karma or not? All we can do is try to do better, for ourselves and others.

(and I don't mean to imply you are being racist, i understand your point given in that example, though I disagree)
Karma is said to be the law which governs all the movements of the materiel universe, and also those of subtle realms. Nothing can happen here which is not part of the overall processes of karma. At least in so far as ordinary life is concerned.

I'm not saying that black people are suffering discrimination because of some past misdeeds - I'm saying that just by being born we are subject to karmas on all levels - I mean, how much shit goes down because of blind and stupid racism - and it feeds back to racism of black against white etc..

I don't think karma means just some kind of moral law along the lines of 'as ye sow so shall ye reap' the workings of karma are extremely complex, operate on a multi-level and multi-dimensional basis and are largely obscured from human consciousness.

According to Vedic notions, only through a process of yoga can we rise above karma, and get some insight into it's true operation. The average person is too entangled in action to see what action is, and what are the real nature of the energies underlying.

A person may feel they are suffering because they can't fulfill some particular desire, but they don't see that the desire itself is wholly a conditioned and constructed thing - in other words, it has been put into them by the collective society in which they were born and whose norms they have been conditioned to accept as the sole reality.
All this is karma. Once again, according to the Vedic literature, it is only the Divine and those who seek to realize the Divine who are free from it or can become freed from it.

Love,

BBB

[TARABELLE]

A person may feel they are suffering because they can't fulfill some particular desire, but they don't see that the desire itself is wholly a conditioned and constructed thing - in other words, it has been put into them by the collective society in which they were born and whose norms they have been conditioned to accept as the sole reality.
Nicely said, I've been trying to reach some insight about the very thing written here. In regards to material things / possessions.

[TrippinBTM]

A person may feel they are suffering because they can't fulfill some particular desire, but they don't see that the desire itself is wholly a conditioned and constructed thing - in other words, it has been put into them by the collective society in which they were born and whose norms they have been conditioned to accept as the sole reality.

Ok, but even collective karma must be dealt with individually. A nation is not a single entity really, but a collection of many. Each individual has his choice, and until a certain level is reached its an uphill battle for change. Even when the idea takes root and gains momentum, it's still up to the individuals to change themselves. This is why social change is so hard. I think talking about trying to change collective karma is getting ahead of ourselves, we have to start closer to home, and improve ourselves first. Lead by example. Remove the beam from our own eyes, and only THEN try to get the splinter out of our neighbors' eyes.