Forlorness Necessary, Necessarily?

[thumontico]

I ask: would an individual unassociated and unaware of conceptions of God and Life possessing inherent meaning necessarily feel the pain of forlornness if that individual would come to the conclusion by self deduction God's nonexistence and Life's lack of inherent meaning?


I would say that emotional reliance on these concepts are strictly due to socialization and direct exposure to them, therefore I do not believe the individual would be forlorn.

[Sera Michele]

I agree. It is a hard concept for many of us to consider, however, being raised in a culture that installs a belief in god into you at an early age, somewhat like a belief in santa claus.

But I think all cultures would eventually come up with some sort of rituals, tradition, and beliefs of their own that we would consider a form of religion. Societies don't seem to have a paticular need for belief in the christian god, but they all do seem to have a need for some sort of religious belief.

Religion is definitely an intriguing part of human sociological evolution.

[Hikaru Zero]

I theorize that that individual would experience forlornness.

Not that the forlornness would be because of that individual's deductions,
But because for that individual to come to such deductions,
That individual would have to be QUITE lonely. =)

[thumontico]

So you are saying a person that would be in the so called bliss inspired by ignorance to come to deductions of the non existence of a God would become forlorn because such would be cause of an extremely lonely person to begin with?

What about meaning to life?

[geckopelli]

I think that "need for a religious belief" may actuallly be a manifestation of the curiosity inherent in being human- more of a "need to know".

[Sera Michele]

I think that "need for a religious belief" may actuallly be a manifestation of the curiosity inherent in being human- more of a "need to know".
I agree. Answering the unanswered. But now that we have science and technology to do those things for us, why believe in all the mysticism?

[geckopelli]

The more I learn, the more I am content with the way the universe works; perhaps ignorance breeds discontent.

"Magic" and "science" share equal validity in the minds of too many people.

[BlackGuardXIII]

My view is different than all those, so I thought I'd share.

I don't think any views 'cause' or even attribute to forlornness, though it may be true that some views have higher rates of forlorn adherents. I feel that the sadness came first, not the faith, or lack of.

I believe in Spirit for none of the posted reasons. I finally surrendered to decades of miracles in my life, and could no longer dismiss them as coincidences, anecdotal evidence, one offs, or just kinda cool. The sheer number of them finally got through. (I am kinda stubborn.)
So......now i am an apathetic ignoragnostic, a new faith that you can freely donate cash in small unmarked bills to...........lol

PS You're all right, not wrong, in my view.

[mati]

No person unfamiliar with such concepts can then be affected by the negation of those concepts. There would have to be some other variable in the equation

[Nisha]

hey.. im a forlorn divine 15 year old mermaid.

how come god has to be in this? god is a belief itself and might not exist anyways. its just so incorperated ito so many peoples lives that society has made it seem essential and the main way of life.

as for the meaning of life.. i dont think there is a meaning to life. i might jsut be a brain in a science lab who is imagining this thread right now and im typing up a response. how might i even know this life is real? and that all these people in it are not too good to be true, yet real true people who have real feelings.

i have only met two people in my ENTIRE life who i think might be real, true human beings like myself. no they arent my parents and one of them i havent even ever met in reality.. i jsut know off the net. and im not just saying that im superior or anythjing. but i know i have a mind of my own, and what i mean by that is that i know that i am living this right now and maybe all the other pople in this world are just there to test me with their love, anger, violence, joy etc.

we just live here all trying to make the world a better place- some even dont try. our bodys need energy to live ... everything is overwhelming. the meaning of life is another belief and most of the race of humanity has seen it as an essential answer we need to know. but you know.. what if there is no meaning to life? what if we dont have to become educated or anything? arent we all humans that are also animals aswell?

i'll never ever ever know . never in time as it goes on forever, whether or not this is real. i'll never know the true meaning of life. no one will (in my opinion) but we are just searching for answers that will never come. so i say we just should live on in our life.. try not to fix any beliefs on anything.. because then the truth will seem far away from what it really is. like how god (in MY opinion) is a myth. when we get proven wrong then it'll cmoe and bite us in the ass.

go with the flow.

we just dont know. you could just say that everything is a belief. life itself. everything in this world.

[superNova]

I agree. Answering the unanswered. But now that we have science and technology to do those things for us, why believe in all the mysticism?
however, science doesn't explain everything.

[Sera Michele]

You are right, it doesn't. but it explains more and more every day. And it will continue to explain things for us.

[BlackGuardXIII]

You are right, it doesn't. but it explains more and more every day. And it will continue to explain things for us.
Indeed, and it is a wondrously valuable thing, yet I feel there are things it will not ever explain, but that is just my belief, no more.

[Sera Michele]

Indeed, and it is a wondrously valuable thing, yet I feel there are things it will not ever explain, but that is just my belief, no more. You are probably right. And another thing I want to point out is just because I think that science today is replacing a lot of what we have needed religion for in the past I still think people need spirituality. It's good for us.

Basically, accept what science has given us and will continue to give us, drop the dogma of religion (where most the intolerance and hate stems from) and keep the spirituality and goodness (great for our mental health, our families, and our society!)

[thumontico]

What is spirituality?

If it is actual consequences from intentional practices, very good. If it actual consequences masked by and associated with supernatural phenomena, it is the same as religion.

[BlackGuardXIII]

What is spirituality?

If it is actual consequences from intentional practices, very good. If it actual consequences masked by and associated with supernatural phenomena, it is the same as religion.
I disagree
just cuz you have not witnessed any supernatural phenomena, you are so smart that you can state none of the millions who claim they have are either lying or nuts.
I choose the nuts option, since I have seen lots of it.
Religion is generally dogmatic and requires blind faith, my spirituality accepts neither.

[thumontico]

I merely suggest that the unexplained is not necessarily inexplicable. Also people that want to believe tend to gear their perceptions to that which would be conducive to what they want to believe. I speak in that respect from personal experience. It is very unlikely that one would be aware that they 'wanted' to believe something when their perceptions were formed along such guidelines.

[FreakyJoeMan]

Si, jus cuz we can't explain some stuff doesn't mean that it 1. has miraculous circumstances or 2. will never be explained. Science is not the pursuit to disprove faith, it is the pursuit to find out how all this shit works. An I'm frusterated wit people sayin that us athiests must be so lonely cuz we don't believe in god, that we don't think that there's some grand scheme to the universe. My personal feelings are that I'm assured by the total pointlessness of the universe, the inherent randomness and chaos and whatever that makes the whole thing interesting. I'm not forlorn, I'm not "Oh, I wish I believed in god so I could feel all warm 'n fuzzy inside". I'm not saddened that the universe has no point, I'm gladdened. I'd be put off if there was a certain goal I that we had to reach, and that we didn't even create that goal in the first place. An goddamn right I don't believe in God. I've always had a certain distrust of authority, and had never wanted to bow to authority in life, and I certainly don't wanna do it in the "afterlife".

[Jatom]

Science produces working explanations, but nothing universally true (or at least nothing that can be known to be universally truth) since it is in a constant state of flux. Science also works off certain principles it fails to prove (causation and uniformity for example) principles that, on the basis of science, can never be proven only assumed i.e. taken on faith.

[FreakyJoeMan]

Aye, and what everybody really needs to jus admit to themselves is that wit all our scientists and philosophers and thinkers out there, we're never gonna know a fraction of what there is to know. It's Godel's theory, simply cuz we're in the environment, we're never gonna really know the environment.

[BlackGuardXIII]

Aye, and what everybody really needs to jus admit to themselves is that wit all our scientists and philosophers and thinkers out there, we're never gonna know a fraction of what there is to know. It's Godel's theory, simply cuz we're in the environment, we're never gonna really know the environment.
Like a brain can totally figure out a brain...it doesnt make sense to me.

" If the brain were so simple we could understand it, we would be so simple we couldn't. " Lyall Watson

[Hikaru Zero]

Spirituality is pretty much ... morality without personas. It's finding true moral values in yourself, and respecting the moral values of others, and connecting with people on a level much deeper than the social norm.

Spirituality and science don't conflict, as religion and spirituality are not related other than in often occurring together.

[mati]

the tendency for people to believe that objects are identical to their perceptions of them is a rather remarkable observation. Not that they can ever actually do so is obvious.

[BlackGuardXIII]

the tendency for people to believe that objects are identical to their perceptions of them is a rather remarkable observation. Not that they can ever actually do so is obvious.
exactimundo

Psychology is a great course to learn the specifics of our completely subjective perspectives on whatever info. we receive.

"We do not see the world as it is, we see it as we are." Anais Nin

[Hikaru Zero]

exactimundo

Psychology is a great course to learn the specifics of our completely subjective perspectives on whatever info. we receive.

"We do not see the world as it is, we see it as we are." Anais Nin

Good quote.

The ultimate goal of most spiritual people is to see the world as it is and try to improve it, rather than to see it as they happen to percieve it.

[BlackGuardXIII]

thanks Hikaru,


I concluded that it is a virtual impossibility, at the least extremely difficult, for anyone to clear their mind enough to be able to see our environment without being influenced by our own subjective thought processes.

In the Psyc class section that covered this topic, it was shown how easily peoples memories can be manipulated just by using more forceful adjectives and adverbs.
The best example of how a single event can be seen many different ways is our court cases, like the oj trial.
two sides describe the same event in total opposite ways.
He was found innocent, which many feel was the right call, I don't.

[Occam]

Good quote.

The ultimate goal of most spiritual people is to see the world as it is and try to improve it, rather than to see it as they happen to percieve it. Hikaru

Incorrect..The ultimate goal of most people is not to suffer in this reality that they do not understand[ and not educated to] and are conditioned to believe they never can.
Occam has met many people. 90% have no idea where to start..let alone
understand. This is not arrogance. It is dispassionate observation.

If we dont start being dispassionately observant and respond accordingly.
We are fucked.

This is the RESPONSIBILLITY OF MATURE REASON.
Our childhood is over..we must make decisions.
No longer can earth sustain selfserving irresponsible acts.

Occam

[BlackGuardXIII]

Hikaru

Incorrect..The ultimate goal of most people is not to suffer in this reality that they do not understand[ and not educated to] and are conditioned to believe they never can.
Occam has met many people. 90% have no idea where to start..let alone
understand. This is not arrogance. It is dispassionate observation.

If we dont start being dispassionately observant and respond accordingly.
We are fucked.

This is the RESPONSIBILLITY OF MATURE REASON.
Our childhood is over..we must make decisions.
No longer can earth sustain selfserving irresponsible acts.

Occam
I have a history of almost always making a choice that leads to the most pain, and then I have usually learned something I found very valuable.
My title refers to both of your statements expressing as a certainty that others motives are known by you.
Other than that I totally concur. I believe that seeking complete externalization, unconditional contentment, ridding oneself of ego, desire and all expectations, offers us the best chance for avoiding being fucked, as you so concisely phrased it.
Miracles can be achieved if no one cares who gets the credit.
I feel being an adult means making choices, and accepting responsibility if the results are bad.

[Occam]

Miracles can be achieved if no one cares who gets the credit.

Blackguard

WELL SAID

Occam

[BlackGuardXIII]

I am glad you liked that, and the credit for it is something I want to make known: the concept was heard by me, spoken by someone else long ago. So, since then, approximately twenty years, it is one I have felt is valuable to keep in mind.
That said.......It has been long enough for me to now own all rights to, and so I have done so.

Without Prejudice, I hereby notify you that formal international proceedings have been initiated to recover the estimated billions of dollars in royalties I have now lost due to the blatant unauthorized copying and circulating of MY QUOTE worldwide by you.
I will consider a motion to stop this pursuit for a reasonable compensation settlement.
Send me any sum around the one million dollar mark, and you can rest easy knowing I will settle and drop all actions forthwith.

credit for this post is due BG13, no other, and is fully protected to the maximum extent available.