Why Jews don't believe in Jesus

[Sephardic-male]

I'LL TELL YOU WHY?!... (I)

IT JUST MIGHT HELP YOU!


I'll tell you why I do not believe Jesus died for the sins of mankind. According to Timothy 3:16, "God was manifest in the flesh". Now, this was BEFORE the "trinity" was invented by the council of Nicaea (325 "A.D."), and the author means that Jesus was "God in the flesh", not just "part" of God, but all of God! Since God is the father of mankind, when He died for His children's sins, He was violating and contradicting His very own words as recorded in Deuteronomy 24:16 "The fathers shall NOT be put to death for the children, nor the children for the fathers! Everyone shall be put to death for his own sin!" I'm 100% certain that this is the word of YHVH God! I'm not sure at all about Timothy 3:16! But you must admit that God cannot violate His own express commands! Some may claim that Timothy 3:16 isn't to be taken literally, but if this isn't literally true, the entire edifice of the "New Testament" collapses, and along with it, Christian doctrine, which claims to be based on the literal truth of the "divine" Gospel!

Since I'm at it, I'll tell you why it's impossible for "God" to become "man". "To become" means just that! It doesn't mean "to pose as", or "to come disguised as". To say God became man means that He stopped being the perfect, all-wise, almighty Creator and became an imperfect, simple weak creature! The Church calls this "a mystery", but had it ever happened, it would be a tragedy! Having once become finite, limited in power and wisdom, frail and human, God would have been doomed to remain that way, for lack of ability to change back into the perfect, almighty being He once was. Just as imperfect foolish man can never, never become Almighty God (though so many have tried throughout the ages!), God will never, become man, and never has.

All this leads me to the inevitable statement: God cannot die! YHVH swears to it Himself: "For I lift up my hand to heaven and say, as I live forever!" Deuteronomy 32:40. "Have you not known? Have you not heard that the EVERLASTING GOD YHVH, the Creator of the ends of the earth, faints not nor is He weary!?" Isaiah 40:25. Now maybe the "god manifested in the flesh" of the New Testament died, but the true only Creator YHVH, never dies! He lives forever, He's everlasting! According to the New Testament, God was dead and buried for over a day! Now if the only God had really died, He would have had to stay that way! There just wasn't any other God around to "resurrect" Him! He was the ONLY God! And who was ruling and managing the universe while He was dead? Existence, all existence would have ceased immediately, had God been killed on Calvary, since everything exists by His Will alone!

All of this PROVES that the "God in the flesh" of the New Testament was NOT the True Almighty Creator, YHVH, AT ALL, but only another god of that category of gods described so strikingly by Jeremiah (chap. 10:11):

Thus shall you say to them: the gods that have NOT made the heavens and the earth, THESE shall PERISH from the earth and from under the heavens!" - "Shall a man make himself gods that are really no-gods?" (ibid 16:20).

OH YHVH, my strength and my stronghold, and my refuge in the day of trouble, UNTO YOU shall the nations come from the ends of the earth and shall say: 'Our fathers have inherited nothing but LIES, vanity and things wherein there is NO benefit!' (Jeremiah 16:19). "For I am God, and NOT MAN!" Hosea 11:9. So, dear friend, leave those other gods, the three headed ones, the man- gods who die and perish. Come to YHVH, the ONE and ONLY, the EVERLASTING, the ONLY SAVIOUR, TODAY, AND LIVE, YOU AND YOUR SEED!


I'LL TELL YOU WHY!! (II)

I'll tell you why I do not believe Jesus died for my sins! First of all, human beings were not acceptable sin-offerings, according to the Mosaic Law. In order to have an acceptable sacrifice, "god the son", (the second person of Christianity's triune deity!) would have had to be "incarnated" into the body of a goat, calf or bull! He would have to have his throat cut by the priest; his blood sprinkled on the temple altar; and his kidneys, fat, and part of his liver burnt on that same altar etc., as designated by Moses' Law! Moreover, the animal to be sacrificed had to be physically perfect and without blemish! An animal whose penis was defective, as the result of having its tip peeled off (as was the case with Jesus, and every other circumcised mali) would be blemished and unacceptable, according to the Law! Since, according to Christian mythology, Jesus came specifically to fulfill the Law's demands for a perfect sin-offering, he was obviously a complete failure! Not ONE of the Law's conditions was met by Jesus! He was an unacceptable sacrifice, and his followers are still sin-laden, miserable creatures!


Another reason I do not believe Jesus died for me is, that, according to Hebrew Scriptures, NOBODY can die for someone else's sins! Moses, the greatest Israelite that ever lived, offered himself to YHVH as a sin- offering after Israel had sinned by making a golden calf. He asked YHVH to take his life, and forgive the sin of Israel. YHVH'S reply was a FLAT REFUSAL, followed by a statement of DIVINE POLICY; "Whoever sins against Me, him (only) will I blot out of my book!" Exodus 32;33. The sinner himself is guilty! NOBODY can take the rap for him! (Not even "god the son"!). This says THE LAW! And Jesus supposedly cam to "fulfill" the Law, not destroy the Law! (Matthew 5:17-19).

Yet another reason I do not believe Jesus died for me is, that he was guilty of death HIMSELF, according to THE LAW! "When a prophet speaks in the name of YHVH, if the thing follows not, nor comes to pass, that is the thing which YHVH has NOT spoken! The prophet has spoken it presumptuously! You shall NOT FEAR HIM! DEUTERONOMY 18:20-22. Jesus prophesied: "For the son of man shall come in the glory of his "father", with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily, I say to you, THERE ARE SOME STANDING HERE (Jesus' listeners!) which shall NOT TASTE OF DEATH till they see the son of man (Jesus) coming in his kingdom!" Matthew 16:27-28. Jesus prophesied his immediate, triumphant return over 1900 years ago! The prophecy never materialized, NEVER came to pass!! Thus, Jesus was a FALSE PROPHET, and GUILTY OF DEATH, according to the law! (Deuteronomy 18:20). He died for HIS sins, NOT OURS!

According to Christian mythology, Jesus was really Almighty Creator become flesh. (Timothy 3:16). However, YHVH the Creator plainly states: "I, YHVH, CHANGE NOT!!" (Malachi 2:6). Now, when an almighty, all knowing, all powerful being CHANGES into a frail, putrid man, that certainly is a RADICAL CHANGE! YHVH, the True Creator plainly states "I live FOREVER!" (Deuteronomy, 32:40). YHVH is EVERLASTING! (Isaiah 40:28.) Yet, according to the New Testament legend, the Christian god died, and was buried for over a day! (from Friday afternoon through Saturday night.)

Christianity claims that its god died for you and me. YHVH, the ONLY TRUE DEITY, CREATOR of HEAVEN and EARTH, states that He dies NOT, HE LIVES FOREVER, and that each individual is responsible for, and must pay for his own sins. However, the way of repentance is open to all:

"Again, when the wicked man turns away from his wickedness that he committed and DOES that which is LAWFUL and RIGHT, (GOOD WORKS!), HE SHALL SAVE HIS SOUL ALIVE!..... He shall SURELY LIVE, HE SHALL NOT DIE!!" Ezekiel 18:27-28.

Yes, dear reader, NO NEED for dying god-men! NO NEED for a god to be murdered on a pagan Roman cross!! The Way of YHVH is open to ALL! Come to YHVH, TODAY! Submitted by: Mordecai Alfandari


http://www.light-of-israel.org/

[Sephardic-male]

rules of sacrifice in Judaism

1. Requires that a sacrificial ritual be administered by a Priest (see Leviticus Chapters 1-7). According to the accounts in the New Testament (NT), Jesus was crucified by Roman soldiers (Matthew 27:35; Mark 15:24; Luke 23:33; John 19:18, 23).

2. Requires that the blood of the (sin) sacrifice had to be sprinkled by the Priest on the veil of the sanctuary and on the altar in the Temple (e.g., Leviticus 4: 5-6). New Testament evidence clearly shows this was not done.

3. Requires that the (sin) sacrifice be without any physical defect or blemish (e.g., Leviticus 4:3). According to the various accounts in the NT, Jesus was beaten, whipped, and dragged on the ground before being crucified (Matthew 26:67, 27:26, 30-31; Mark 14: 65, 15:15-20; Luke 22: 63; John 18:22, 19:1, 3). Moreover, as a Jew by birth, Jesus was circumcised on the eighth day after being born, a ritual that leaves a scar ("sign of the covenant"). According to the NT, circumcision is tantamount to mutilation (Philippians 3:2, Galatians 5:12).

4. Requires that the Passover (sin) sacrifice, a male-goat, be offered on an individual (per household) basis (Numbers 28:22), not as a communal offering. According to the NT, Jesus’ death (termed a “sin sacrifice”) expiated the sins of mankind (Romans 6:10; Hebrews 9:12, 10:10, 10:18).

5. Directs that the Paschal Lamb was NOT to be offered for the removal of sins. It was a commemorative/festive offering (see also under items 4 above and 6 below). A more appropriate time for a sin offering would have been on Yom Kippur (the Day of Atonement; Numbers 29:11 [individual sin-offering―male goat]; Leviticus16:15 [communal sin-offering―male goat]).

6. Requires sacrificed Paschal Lamb to be roasted and eaten, and it’s blood used to place markings on the side-posts and lintel of the doors (Exodus 12: 7-8). There is no record in the NT that this was done (lest it be suggested that Christianity promotes cannibalism).

7. States that the sacrificial sin offering could only atone for UNINTENTIONAL sins, with few notable exceptions as stated in Leviticus 5:1-6, 20-26 [Leviticus6:1-7 in Christian Bibles]; [e.g., Num 15:27-31] .

8. Teaches that sacrifices can only atone for sins committed PRIOR to the offering of the sacrifice. No sacrifice could ever atone for sins committed AFTER the sacrifice was offered. Thus, no sacrifice could ever atone for people born after the sacrifice was offered.

9. Strictly FORBIDS human vicarious atonement (e.g., Exodus 32:31-33; Numbers 35:33; Deuteronomy 24:16; II Kings 14:6; Jeremiah 31:29 [30 in a Christian Bible]; Ezekiel 18:4,20; Psalms 49:7).

10. Strictly PROHIBITS human sacrifices (e.g., Leviticus18:21, 24-25; Deuteronomy 18:10; Jeremiah 7:31, 19: 5; Ezekiel 23:37, 39).

[Sephardic-male]

REASONS WHY NO HONEST JEW CAN BECOME A CHRISTIAN 1


Michael Boaz Israel ben-Abraham



There are nine positive commands that a Jew must break and deny, before ever he can become a Christian.

1st. He must deny the Unity of God, and support a Trinity of Persons, which is Idolatry, (see Deuteronomy 4:16,) and take the name of a man (a "male") as a God, into his mouth.

2d. He must deny the Seventh Day Sabbath, which is the Seventh "Spirit of God," or the Seventh Spirit of his Existence, which is Rest, and keep the ROMAN SUNDAY.

3d. He must deny C i r c u m c i s i o n, which is a positive command of God, never to be abrogated or gainsaid by any inferior testimony: Excision is the penalty. See Genesis. 17:10, 13, and 14.

4th. He must deny and cease to keep the Four Annual Feasts, which were to be "kept forever throughout their generations."

5th. He must deny the whole Law 2 of God, as being "Abrogated," "dead," and "Married to another," (see Romans 7:4,) and "Finished," and not merely succeeded, but superseded by a Gospel (so called,) and thus destroy all that preserves the existence 3 of the moral character of God, or his Attributes, which is the same thing. And who cannot see, if we destroy the Law, the Gospel (so called) has no foundation whatever?

6th."He must lose sight and deny the Supremacy and Pre-Eminence of Israel as a Nation, and "Kingdom of Priests," (Exodus 19:6,) over the whole world, also Esau's selling his "Birthright" to Jacob, which included also his "Blessing," of being "Lord over him" and the whole visible creation. Genesis 27:29.

7th. He must deny God's positive command, "That Israel shall dwell alone," (Deuteronomy 33:28, and Numbers 23:9,) "and not be reckoned among the nations;" and by mingling himself amongst the Gentiles, loses his own Identity, and if he have any children, they must be neither Jew nor Ashdod. Nehemiah 13:24.

8th. He must deny any difference between "Clean and Unclean," "Sacred and Profane," which God positively commands in his Law. See Leviticus 11.

9th. He uses "Blood," "Things Strangled" and "Offered to Idols," even to Three 4 DISTINCT PERSONALITIES, which is Spiritual "Fornication and Idolatry," (see Deuteronomy 4:16,) and whenever he eats anything blessed in any other name than the "name of the only one God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob," he sacrifices unto a "Strange God;" besides he denies and destroys, as far as he can go, the design God has in keeping the distinctness and Identity of that People upon whom alone "he has named" and placed his Great Incommunicable and Ineffable NAME, as the alone medium of Blessing the whole world.



Footnote:

1. The Key of David, Michael Boaz Israel ben-Abraham (Warder Cresson 1799-1860), Philadelphia, 1852

2 God exists morally or Spiritually, and the strength of his Existence depends alone upon the Law of his Constitution.

3 Man exists physically, and the strength of his Existence depends alone upon the Laws of his Constitution.

4 Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

[HuckFinn]

http://www.jewsforjesus.org/library/issues/02-09/angel.htm

http://www.jewsforjesus.org/library/issues/03-10/yshua.htm

http://www.jewsforjesus.org/library/issues/05-07/atonement.htm

[feministhippy]

I think we're having the discussion about Jews for Jesus and why an organization owned and paid for by a Christian group is not Jewish in another thread.

And I don't follow the teachings of Jesus for a very simple reason: Jesus has nothing to do with my religion. Christianity might have started as Judaism, but it is no longer. They are two separate religions.

[Sephardic-male]

[http://www.jewsforjesus.org/library...02-09/angel.htm (http://www.jewsforjesus.org/library...02-09/angel.htm)]


an angel is an angel, G-d is G-d, Man is Man


G-d has no form

G-d is not a man. Missionaries say that the “son” aspect of their tri-partite god was the person Jesus. (Sometimes they even seem to say the other two aspects were also human, but that's another story.) They emphasize that they believe G-d became man, not that a man became G-d. Mormons go so far as to claim that G-d was once a man! The Tanakh makes no such distinction. The Tanakh says simply that G-d is not a man.

o Numbers 23:19, King James Version (KJV),1 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? .

o Missionaries claim the verse should read "G-d is not a man who lies..." This is not what the Hebrew texts says, or even how the KJV translates it.

o Hosea 11:9 ...I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee….

o I Samuel 15:29 And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent. .

o Psalm 146:2-3 While I live will I praise the LORD: I will sing praises unto my God while I have any being. Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. .

Jesus is frequently referred to as the "son of man.” .

o The Hebrew phrase "ben adam" (literally "son of man") in a poetic way of saying "person.”

o Job 9:32-33 For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment. Neither is there any daysman ("mediator" in the New KJV) betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both.

o Note that Job 9:3 also contradicts the missionary idea that someone must mediate between people and G-d.

o The same idea is expressed in a different way in Deuteronomy Chapter 4. The text is explicit ― you saw no image at Horeb, ― so don't try to make a representation of G-d.

o Deut 4: 15-19 Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the LORD spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire: Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female, The likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air, The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth: And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven.

o Note that Deut 4:19 also contradicts the missionary idea that G-d will condemn those who worship incorrectly.

o Missionaries sometimes say that G-d has changed since those words were written. They assert that now G-d is indeed human, and if Jews don't believe it, we will be consumed in the fires of hell. However, the Bible says that G-d does not change and we will not be consumed.

o Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.




[http://www.jewsforjesus.org/library...03-10/yshua.htm (http://www.jewsforjesus.org/library...03-10/yshua.htm)]

Yeshua is aramiac form of Joshua


[http://www.jewsforjesus.org/library...7/atonement.htm (http://www.jewsforjesus.org/library...7/atonement.htm)]


· Exodus 30.12 - Charity can provide atonement for the soul.

· Exodus 30.15-16 - Money can make atonement for the soul.

· Leviticus 5.11-13 - Flour can make atonement for the soul.

· Numbers 14.19-20 - Prayer can make atonement for the soul.

· Numbers 31.50 - Jewelry can make atonement for the soul.

· Isaiah 27.9 - Breaking alters to idolatry can make atonement.

· Jeremiah 36.3 - Turning from evil can make atonement for the soul.

· Hosea 6.6 - Obedience can make atonement for the soul.



rules of sacrifice

1. Requires that a sacrificial ritual be administered by a Priest (see Leviticus Chapters 1-7). According to the accounts in the New Testament (NT), Jesus was crucified by Roman soldiers (Matthew 27:35; Mark 15:24; Luke 23:33; John 19:18, 23).

2. Requires that the blood of the (sin) sacrifice had to be sprinkled by the Priest on the veil of the sanctuary and on the altar in the Temple (e.g., Leviticus 4: 5-6). New Testament evidence clearly shows this was not done.

3. Requires that the (sin) sacrifice be without any physical defect or blemish (e.g., Leviticus 4:3). According to the various accounts in the NT, Jesus was beaten, whipped, and dragged on the ground before being crucified (Matthew 26:67, 27:26, 30-31; Mark 14: 65, 15:15-20; Luke 22: 63; John 18:22, 19:1, 3). Moreover, as a Jew by birth, Jesus was circumcised on the eighth day after being born, a ritual that leaves a scar ("sign of the covenant"). According to the NT, circumcision is tantamount to mutilation (Philippians 3:2, Galatians 5:12).

4. Requires that the Passover (sin) sacrifice, a male-goat, be offered on an individual (per household) basis (Numbers 28:22), not as a communal offering. According to the NT, Jesus’ death (termed a “sin sacrifice”) expiated the sins of mankind (Romans 6:10; Hebrews 9:12, 10:10, 10:18).

5. Directs that the Paschal Lamb was NOT to be offered for the removal of sins. It was a commemorative/festive offering (see also under items 4 above and 6 below). A more appropriate time for a sin offering would have been on Yom Kippur (the Day of Atonement; Numbers 29:11 [individual sin-offering―male goat]; Leviticus16:15 [communal sin-offering―male goat]).

6. Requires sacrificed Paschal Lamb to be roasted and eaten, and it’s blood used to place markings on the side-posts and lintel of the doors (Exodus 12: 7-8). There is no record in the NT that this was done (lest it be suggested that Christianity promotes cannibalism).

7. States that the sacrificial sin offering could only atone for UNINTENTIONAL sins, with few notable exceptions as stated in Leviticus 5:1-6, 20-26 [Leviticus6:1-7 in Christian Bibles]; [e.g., Num 15:27-31] .

8. Teaches that sacrifices can only atone for sins committed PRIOR to the offering of the sacrifice. No sacrifice could ever atone for sins committed AFTER the sacrifice was offered. Thus, no sacrifice could ever atone for people born after the sacrifice was offered.

9. Strictly FORBIDS human vicarious atonement (e.g., Exodus 32:31-33; Numbers 35:33; Deuteronomy 24:16; II Kings 14:6; Jeremiah 31:29 [30 in a Christian Bible]; Ezekiel 18:4,20; Psalms 49:7).

10. Strictly PROHIBITS human sacrifices (e.g., Leviticus18:21, 24-25; Deuteronomy 18:10; Jeremiah 7:31, 19: 5; Ezekiel 23:37, 39).



BLOOD SACRIFICE IS NOT ESSENTIAL FOR FORGIVENESS

Zvi Zaks




Missionaries say that G-d must have blood in order to forgive sins. I have even heard them make the blasphemous sounding statement that G-d is incapable, does not have the ability, to forgive without bloodshed. Such an idea is primitive and barbaric, but that is not the point. The point is that the Tanakh does not agree. According to Tanakh, there are several acceptable means for repentance.

· Leviticus 5 11 (KJV) But if he be not able to bring two turtledoves, or two young pigeons, then he that sinned shall bring for his offering the tenth part of an ephah of fine flour for a sin offering; he shall put no oil upon it, neither shall he put any frankincense thereon: for it is a sin offering.

· Isaiah Chapter 1:11 (KJV) To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

Micah Chapter 6 is particularly explicit as to what G-d wants:

· (KJV) 6 Wherewith shall I come before the LORD, and bow myself before the high God? shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves of a year old? 7 Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? 8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

o Missionaries sometimes say this means Jesus. But that it not what the text says.

Hosea Chapter 14 waxes poetic and describes words (of repentance) as if they were the animal sacrifices ("calves of our lips"):

· (KJV) 1 O Israel, return unto the LORD thy God; for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity. 2 Take with you words, and turn to the LORD: say unto him, Take away all iniquity, and receive us graciously: so will we render the calves of our lips.

The Psalmist expresses the same idea.

· Psalms 40 (KJV) 6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.

· Psalms 50 (KJV) 7 Hear, O my people, and I will speak; O Israel, and I will testify against thee: I am God, even thy God. 8 I will not reprove thee for thy sacrifices or thy burnt offerings, to have been continually before me. 9 I will take no bullock out of thy house, nor he goats out of thy folds. 10 For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills. 11 I know all the fowls of the mountains: and the wild beasts of the field are mine. 12 If I were hungry, I would not tell thee: for the world is mine, and the fulness thereof. 13 Will I eat the flesh of bulls, or drink the blood of goats? 14 Offer unto God thanksgiving; and pay thy vows unto the most High: 15 And call upon me in the day of trouble: I will deliver thee, and thou shalt glorify me.

Money (Exodus 30:15-16), jewelry (Numbers 31:50) or putting fire from the altar in a censure (Numbers 17:11) are also listed as means to forgiveness.

Hosea is specific that animal sacrifices will stop for a temporary period (as opposed to being stopped forever and replaced by something else.)

· Hosea Chapter 3: 4 (KJV). For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim: 5 Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days.

Here is the list of the verses for easy copy and paste in chatrooms:

· Lev 5:11; Is 1:11; Micah 6:6-8; Hosea 3:4-5; Hosea 14:2; Ps 40:6; Ps 50:7-15; Ex 30:15-16; Num 17:11; Num 31:50



SOURCE:



Zvika Zaks, Copyright 2001: fiddlerzvi@att.net { http://home.att.net/~fiddlerzvi/ (http://home.att.net/~fiddlerzvi/) ]

[somethingwitty]

Just to interject something as a neutral obsever---


1) You are assuming you can comprehend G-d's actions and will
2) You are assuming you can comprehend G-d's form/forms
3) There is a difference between the flesh dying
and the spirit dying.

[Sephardic-male]

no i am talking about the laws of Judaism

[atropine]

Just to interject something as a neutral obsever---


1) You are assuming you can comprehend G-d's actions and will
2) You are assuming you can comprehend G-d's form/forms
3) There is a difference between the flesh dying
and the spirit dying.
It's not comprehending who g-d is, or what g-d does, it's just that there is positive proof of g-d not being certain things, and there is certain proof, should you read the texts and accept them, that g-d cannot be man..I would agree with you that we can't understand some things, but we do have guides..

-DISARM not atropine...too lazy to sign in..sorry.

[somethingwitty]

That's just it, believing G-d is omni-potent automatically implies there is no "cannot", regardless of what language or logic says; bit of a mindfuck, but that's the way it is. You can't be all powerful and have restrictions, just doesn't make sense.

[the dauer]

That's just it, believing G-d is omni-potent automatically implies there is no "cannot", regardless of what language or logic says; bit of a mindfuck, but that's the way it is. You can't be all powerful and have restrictions, just doesn't make sense.

Becoming limited to time or space is a limitation. Therefore God cannot be limited to time and space. God does not need to be raised as a baby and have his mommy wipe his bum after he soils himself, or to be taught the aleph-bet. There are limitations. They're just two ways of looking at the issue.

Dauer

[HuckFinn]

Here's some light reading: http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/history/ath-inc.htm!

[the dauer]

Huck,

I just skimmed over it. Shabbos is soon and so I don't have time to look at the whole thing. Basically, it looks like a very biased and one-sided interpretation of texts and History. To each their own I guess.

Dauer

[Sephardic-male]

Huck you man/god is dead he never gather the exiles, establish world peace and he encourage people to abandon the Torah

[swimminthefish]

It applaud how well you have thought through
your faith particularly in regards to Christianity.

I did have a few problems with your posts..
To say that the Trinity was invented at the Council
of Nicaea is simply false. That is like saying that
modern Western Science invented gravity, which
is obviously not the case; it has always existed but simply
lacked a clear simplified definition.

But I understand that because you do not believe in the Trinity
you thus cannot believe in Christianity.

Secondly, you seem to discredit Christianity by listing rules;
the two cannot coincide and thus Christianity must be false. In doing so you are missing the point. Jesus came to bring the New Covenant; God never intended our life to revolve around endless traditions, customs, and
rules. We as humans chose the wrong path and thus it became that
way. When Jesus came, many Jews did the same thing you are
doing now: "How dare you heal on the sabbath", Why do you eat
with blatant sinners", "Why do you not wash your hands before your
eat". Increasingly, their religion centered on countless rules, and the
self, and not on God.

If you truly want to understand Chrsitianity, I urge you to read "Mere
Christianity" by C.S. Lewis. I hope that I have been respectful to your beliefs.

One last thought, this really applies to any situation in life: Don't let
yourself be defined by your context, your upbringing, your neighborhood,
your schooling. I hate how we are defined by outside sources.

Take Care

[the dauer]

I did have a few problems with your posts..
To say that the Trinity was invented at the Council
of Nicaea is simply false. That is like saying that
modern Western Science invented gravity, which
is obviously not the case; it has always existed but simply
lacked a clear simplified definition.

Then can you show us the complicated definition that did exist?

But I understand that because you do not believe in the Trinity
you thus cannot believe in Christianity.

These postings have really been in response to Huck Finn, who has claimed that it is Jewish to believe in Jesus and a Jew who believes in Jesus is a "completed Jew." At least I personally have nothing against Christianity, unless it is trying to force itself onto other people.

Secondly, you seem to discredit Christianity by listing rules;
the two cannot coincide and thus Christianity must be false. In doing so you are missing the point. Jesus came to bring the New Covenant;

No. You are missing the point. The Torah makes it clear that anyone who comes and says such as he does is a false prophet, a dreamer of dreams, and has been sent by God to tempt the people of Israel.

He also never fulfilled any of the requirements for the messiah. So on whose authority is he starting this "new covenant?" I would not come to you and ask these questions, but this issue has been brought here.


God never intended our life to revolve around endless traditions, customs, and
rules.

This is part of the Christian teachings about Judaism which says it is the religion of strict law, when in reality the mitzvot serve to extend holiness into all aspects of our lives, redirecting our minds back to God. In addition to that, some of the mitzvot have very special purposes, like those surrounding Shabbat, which is said to be a taste of the world-to-come.

Increasingly, their religion centered on countless rules, and the
self, and not on God.

According to who? You? Ask a religious Jew. The mitzvot bring God into all of life. You make it sound like Judaism is such a bad thing. I don't come to the Christian board and criticize Christianity for worshipping an image or in some places making small laws, like those about homosexuality, their greatest concern. Tell me, if all those laws are so unimportant why are they part of your bible?


If you truly want to understand Chrsitianity, I urge you to read "Mere
Christianity" by C.S. Lewis. I hope that I have been respectful to your beliefs.

I do understand Christianity. I understand how it views itself and I understand Christianity in contrast with the other world religions, including my own. Huck Finn did not understand the role of Christianity in the Jewish world, or the Jewish view of Judaism, which is a rich spiritual tradition. I can see that you also have a little difficulty with that last issue as well, but it seems like it's more about what you've been taught. You seem like a very reasonable person so far who understands there are always many sides to a story.

One last thought, this really applies to any situation in life: Don't let
yourself be defined by your context, your upbringing, your neighborhood,
your schooling. I hate how we are defined by outside sources.

I agree with you. I hope you also take this teaching to heart. Take care.

Dauer

[BlackGuardXIII]

Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva....

way older.


Osiris, Isis, and the miracle child, Horus,

Of course that is more like the nativity, even the depictions of them look the same.

[the dauer]

Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva....

way older.


Osiris, Isis, and the miracle child, Horus,

Of course that is more like the nativity, even the depictions of them look the same.

That's true. Or Dionysus, Zeus, and Semele. But that doesn't show that there was a trinity implicated in any of the NT writings which is what I am really asking for. And I'm not so sure she'd be willing to include those "pagan" gods as a statement on the origins of the trinity in Christianity. But I really don't know anything about her. Still, it would only support the arguement that it is a complete break from Jewish beliefs about God, which is what this thread is really about.

Dauer

[mysweetisrael]

It's like Jews are the object of Christianity's unrequited love.

It's always tormented the Christians that Jews could shrug off their evangelism so easily. But it really is easy when they say shit that makes no sense and shows complete ignorance of the very lines from the Old Testament which they use to support their claims.

[swimminthefish]

I apologize for my last post; it was rather careless and sporadic. You

Are right I have no background in Judaism, nor have I studied it. Shamefully, the vast

majority of my ideas come from a cursory reading of the OT and

The Chosen by Chaim Potok. So correct me if I make any false assumptions.



I will start with the Doctrine of the Trinity, the essential core of Christianity. Is

your conspiracy theory concerning the Council of Nicaea a standard Jewish teaching

or your own conclusion? I know this theory has been recently propagated by the Da

Vinci Code, but remember, it is a work of fiction.



The Council of Nicaea convened to establish an already accepted idea of the Trinity, to,

in essence, hammer out the details. At that time the platonic influence on the Greek

Christians caused them to believe that Christ was in fact ontologically subordinate

to the Father because he became flesh. They saw all flesh as inherently evil and thus

failed to see how God could become man. The concept of the Trinity

was never in question, merely how the persons related. At the Council of Nicaea they

established that all three persons all equal merely functionally subordinate as

stated in Philippians 2.



You asked for examples in the NT. I think Matthew 3:16-17 would be the best

example, because one sees all three persons interacting at the same time. But I also

urge you to search out the OT scripture for indications: during creation, the spirit of God moving over the dark water, the angel of the Lord wrestling with Jacob....etc.



What does Jews believe concerning the nature of God? In my opinion God is love, and

love by nature must be freely given and reciprocal. Now, if God is eternal, which he must be, and existed before the dawn of man then how could this be true if he was a singular being?

One cannot love themselves. Supposing one ignores the eternal aspect of his nature, God could have a loving relationship with humanity but again that cannot be. For if God

Needed us for fulfillment than that would make him dependant on mankind.



In the Trinity God exists in a perfect loving relationship with himself, called Koinania.

He had no need for mankind but chose to create them for their own joy and his.



Secondly, I was wrong to say that your strict adherence to code and tradition

cause you to drift from God. In reality, they very likely do the opposite by keeping

you mindful of who you serve. My intent was to demonstrate the futility

of such laws and codes. Despite character, upbringing, or good intentions

we will inevitably fail in such attempts at goodness, because we are human.

It does not matter if you sin once or one thousand times, you are still

a sinner and worthy of death.



I have many things to add, but I am going to wait...

Take Care

[the dauer]

I'm deleting some of the spaces in your post so they're easier to follow and take up less space. If this bothers you just let me know.

You Are right I have no background in Judaism, nor have I studied it. Shamefully, the vast majority of my ideas come from a cursory reading of the OT and The Chosen by Chaim Potok. So correct me if I make any false assumptions.

While The Chosen is a good book(imho), it's not really a good introduction to Judaism. And the Tanakh, the Jewish scriptures, isn't such a great introduction to Judaism either because it is only the written and not the oral torah. It also discounts all of the commentators and theologians who help to explain Judaism.

Is your conspiracy theory concerning the Council of Nicaea a standard Jewish teaching or your own conclusion? I know this theory has been recently propagated by the Da Vinci Code, but remember, it is a work of fiction.

Careful. "Conspiracy theory" is a value judgement that's hardly useful in this conversation. I also have almost no respect for the "scholarship" of the Da Vinci Code. I think in general any Jew would look to the objective scholars and Historians to get their answers about what happened, if they care at all. I also never made that conclusion. I simply asked for examples that would prove otherwise.



The Council of Nicaea convened to establish an already accepted idea of the Trinity, to, in essence, hammer out the details. At that time the platonic influence on the Greek Christians caused them to believe that Christ was in fact ontologically subordinate to the Father because he became flesh. They saw all flesh as inherently evil and thus failed to see how God could become man. The concept of the Trinity was never in question, merely how the persons related. At the Council of Nicaea they established that all three persons all equal merely functionally subordinate as stated in Philippians 2.

This is all according to Church History, and since I consider all one-sided Histories, including those of my own people, possibly biased, you can understand why I approach this the way I do. I don't see any evidence in Philippians 2 for a trinity god.

You asked for examples in the NT. I think Matthew 3:16-17 would be the best example, because one sees all three persons interacting at the same time.

That's not evidence of a trinity god. The spirit of God descends on many people and in addition to that, being called the son of God is not a title reserved only for Jesus.

ÒMy son, My firstborn is Israel..." (Exodus 4:22)

ÒThus says HaShem. Israel is My son, My firstbornÓ (Deuteronomy 4:22)

ÒWhen Israel was I child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called My sonÓ (Hosea 11:1)

ÓHe (Solomon) shall be a son to Me [G-d], and I a Father to himÓ (1 Chr 22:10)

He has said to me "You (David) are My son. Today I have begotten you. (Psalm 2:7)

And God repeated ÒI, too, will make him (David) a firstborn, supreme over the earthÕs kingsÓ (Psalms 89:27-28)



But I also urge you to search out the OT scripture for indications: during creation, the spirit of God moving over the dark water, the angel of the Lord wrestling with Jacob....etc.

A) God does not wrestle with Jacob. A celestial being wrestles with Jacob. B) What does the story of creation have to do with a trinity god?

What does Jews believe concerning the nature of God?

In general beliefs about God remain vague and very varied. Maimonides' first few articles of faith give a general idea:

1. Belief in the existence of the Creator, be He Blessed, who is perfect in every manner of existence and is the Primary Cause of all that exists.

2. The belief in G-d's absolute and unparalleled unity.

3. The belief in G-d's noncorporeality, nor that He will be affected by any physical occurrences, such as movement, or rest, or dwelling.

4. The belief in G-d's eternity.

5. The imperative to worship Him exclusively and no foreign false gods.

There are some more, but those are the least disputed in all of the movements and the ones specifically related to the nature of God. Maimonides also suggested that when we attribute one of God's positive qualities to Him, given at Sinai, we're actually saying He is not the opposite.

But as I said there is a lot of room for variation in belief. I am a panentheist and I believe God only acts through the laws of physics, not to say there isn't some other level of the world we are less aware of. I believe there is.

In my opinion God is love, and love by nature must be freely given and reciprocal. Now, if God is eternal, which he must be, and existed before the dawn of man then how could this be true if he was a singular being? One cannot love themselves.

But if God is not a duality, then there is no need for an other to love. If God is entirely lacking in duality, God can be pure love. But again, this all rests on your definition that God is love, which I think is lacking, and on your definition of what love is and what love needs. I can love myself. I don't even think I can begin to love someone else until I love myself. We say "love your neighbor as yourself" and this implies that loving oneself is natural for us. So too it must be for God, if love is your definition of God.

Supposing one ignores the eternal aspect of his nature, God could have a loving relationship with humanity but again that cannot be. For if God Needed us for fulfillment than that would make him dependant on mankind.

Who says God needs anything? A need is a human characteristic. Are you applying human characteristics to the Divine and claiming that this is the only true way to approach the Divine? Human terms are inadequate.

In the Trinity God exists in a perfect loving relationship with himself, called Koinania.

I love myself and I am not a trinity. Does that make me better than your definition of God?

He had no need for mankind but chose to create them for their own joy and his.

His joy or his need; all semantics. You define what makes it just for joy. You define what makes it need. What if I said that joy is a need? We're just playing with words.


Secondly, I was wrong to say that your strict adherence to code and tradition cause you to drift from God. In reality, they very likely do the opposite by keeping you mindful of who you serve. My intent was to demonstrate the futility of such laws and codes. Despite character, upbringing, or good intentions we will inevitably fail in such attempts at goodness, because we are human. It does not matter if you sin once or one thousand times, you are still a sinner and worthy of death.

That label of sinner is a Christian one. There is no such thing in Judaism. It's okay to make mistakes. Where do you get this idea that any sin is so horrible? If sins are so horrible, why did God create us to sin? It's all a great big learning experience. We're growing as people and our sins helps us to do that.

Dauer

[swimminthefish]

While The Chosen is a good book(imho), it's not really a good introduction to Judaism. And the Tanakh, the Jewish scriptures, isn't such a great introduction to Judaism either because it is only the written and not the oral torah. It also discounts all of the commentators and theologians who help to explain Judaism.


-No doubt



Histories, including those of my own people, possibly biased,



-Then where do you hope to get any accurate information if you
cannot trust the accounts of your own people? Intuition?
I guess you did mention other "objective accounts"; does that
mean accounts not affiliated with any religion. In that case,
it is very likely that they contain an even stronger bias because
undoubetedly everyone has an agenda. There's being to discredit
the Christian Faith.


I don't see any evidence in Philippians 2 for a trinity god.

-Philippians 2 starting at 16-17 I believe ( I don't have a Bible around)
is called the Kenotic Hymn. It describes Christ's decision to
give up his functional equality with God to die on the cross and
redeem his people.



That's not evidence of a trinity god. The spirit of God descends on many people and in addition to that, being called the son of God is not a title reserved only for Jesus.

ÒMy son, My firstborn is Israel..." (Exodus 4:22)


I do not know Hebrew or Greek so again I feel inadequate
discussing the etymology of the word son, but I do feel
comfortable discussing this in a general sense. God
called Christians in the NT sons of God; now, does this mean
that he lied to us, because, clearly his already has a son: Israel,
Christ, the collective group of modern day believers. The term
son is mearly a feeble attempt at describing in our terms what
the Trinity is. Obviously Christ did not simply come into
existence after being born to his heavenly father. He has always
existed in the Trinity, and has always been ontologically equal
to God the Father. He chose, as described in Philippians 2:6-11,
to become functionally subordinate in order to redeem his people.



1. Belief in the existence of the Creator, be He Blessed, who is perfect in every manner of existence and is the Primary Cause of all that exists.
2. The belief in G-d's absolute and unparalleled unity.
3. The belief in G-d's noncorporeality, nor that He will be affected by any physical occurrences, such as movement, or rest, or dwelling.
4. The belief in G-d's eternity.
5. The imperative to worship Him exclusively and no foreign false gods.


--I agree with these, except for number 3 of course.


I am a panentheist

---Is that a common trait among Jews?


I can love myself. I don't even think I can begin to love someone else until I love myself.

--Quite true, you cannot love others until you love yourself, but the
question is do you truly love yourself. It is easy to confuse true
feelings of love with simple desire or power lust. I think you will
admit that human beings are naturally selfish and obsessed with
little more than themselves. I would hardly call narcissism love or
equate the love God has for his children with the feelings we
have for ourselves. But at the risk of semantics, how do you define
love? In my opinion love must be freely given and reciprocal.


Are you applying human characteristics to the Divine and claiming that this is the only true way to approach the Divine?

--I am doing just that. The only things we know about God come through
revelation, a revelation that sinks to our level as human beings. In
other words, God comes down to our level in order that we might
understand him. Clearly if he did not do so our feeble intellects would
not be able to comprehend him. That is why the scripture is
written in human thought form and in language we can understand.


His joy or his need; all semantics. You define what makes it just for joy. You define what makes it need. What if I said that joy is a need? We're just playing with words.


--I think that is a cop out. Joy and need are very distinct words with
distinct definitions: I need oxygen because I will die if I do not
have it. Joy is something I seek or desire. And as I said before, how can one not seek to understand God by human definitions. It appears to me
to be our only option.



why did God create us to sin?

--He did not create us to sin. He gave us free will in order to have
a loving relationship with him, because, as I said before, true love must be freely given. We chose sin. He chose to redeem us through our choice, by
death on the cross-the ultimate revelation of the true nature of
God.


---I have a couple question. How do you, or other Jews, interpret the amazingly accurate predictions of Christ death found in Isaiah and Psalms.
Secondly how will you know when your Messiah has arrived?
What are you looking for?

[the dauer]

Histories, including those of my own people, possibly biased,

-Then where do you hope to get any accurate information if you
cannot trust the accounts of your own people? Intuition?
I guess you did mention other "objective accounts"; does that
mean accounts not affiliated with any religion. In that case,
it is very likely that they contain an even stronger bias because
undoubetedly everyone has an agenda. There's being to discredit
the Christian Faith.

Well, I think in general we need to come up with our own answers, but I trust a logical scholarly analysis more than some fanciful myths.


I don't see any evidence in Philippians 2 for a trinity god.

-Philippians 2 starting at 16-17 I believe ( I don't have a Bible around)
is called the Kenotic Hymn. It describes Christ's decision to
give up his functional equality with God to die on the cross and
redeem his people.

I read it. That's not evidence for the trinity. I want you to show me a passage where God is represented as three different entities that are one.


chose, [/i]as described in Philippians 2:6-11,
to become functionally subordinate in order to redeem his people.

Sorry, but I just don't buy it. It was a common enough phrase. This is the wikipedia entry:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Son_of_god



I am a panentheist

---Is that a common trait among Jews?

Some Jews are panentheists. Some are not. It is understood anyway that God is everywhere, just not in physical space or in time. Panentheism is an acceptable variation of monotheism in Judaism.


--Quite true, you cannot love others until you love yourself, but the
question is do you truly love yourself.

One of the mitzvot says we should love our neighbors as we love ourselves. This implies that it is possible to love ourselves, and that we should love others just as much. Actually in Judaism there are two mitzvot. This one applies to other Jews. The mitzvah to love the stranger applies to non-Jews.

It is easy to confuse true
feelings of love with simple desire or power lust.

I don't lust after myself.

I think you will
admit that human beings are naturally selfish and obsessed with
little more than themselves.

That's one of the things the mitzvot help to deal with. It helps us grow in concern for the people around us, and act on their behalf in any event.


But at the risk of semantics, how do you define
love? In my opinion love must be freely given and reciprocal.

You didn't really give a definition for love. You just said under what conditions it should be given. I will do the same since I think defining love would belong on the general board in its own thread. First, I don't think it's possible for love not to be freely given. It goes without saying. It cannot be taken against someone's will. But it does happen without being reciprocal. I can show love to someone who does not love me. It may become reciprocal but it does not have to.


Are you applying human characteristics to the Divine and claiming that this is the only true way to approach the Divine?

--I am doing just that. The only things we know about God come through
revelation, a revelation that sinks to our level as human beings. In
other words, God comes down to our level in order that we might
understand him.

Well, I would disagree with you about the nature of revelation. To me it is just an experience of God that leads to human answers.

Clearly if he did not do so our feeble intellects would
not be able to comprehend him.

Do you comprehend him any better than a non-Christian? What about people who claim revelation that have contradictory answers?

That is why the scripture is
written in human thought form and in language we can understand.

Or the Talmud is correct. It says "The Torah speaks in the language of man." And in this it means that concepts entirely beyond words are being conveyed in human terms, but God does not walk, or have hands, or become angry. Any anthropomorphism does not imply a humanlike God, but just that what is really going on could not be intellectually understood by us.



--I think that is a cop out. Joy and need are very distinct words with
distinct definitions: I need oxygen because I will die if I do not
have it. Joy is something I seek or desire. And as I said before, how can one not seek to understand God by human definitions. It appears to me
to be our only option.

We could also accept that God is beyond mere human definition, and that if we ever use this language by saying Father or such it is only for our sake.



why did God create us to sin?

--He did not create us to sin. He gave us free will in order to have
a loving relationship with him, because, as I said before, true love must be freely given. We chose sin. He chose to redeem us through our choice, by
death on the cross-the ultimate revelation of the true nature of
God.

If we choose sin it is because God created a system in which we would choose it. I would think that sin must be far more helpful than all that, not to support hedonism. But that it serves a very important role in the world Hashem created.


---I have a couple question. How do you, or other Jews, interpret the amazingly accurate predictions of Christ death found in Isaiah and Psalms.
Secondly how will you know when your Messiah has arrived?
What are you looking for?

There has been a lot of answering of these types of questions on this board over the past week. Please browse the other threads related to Christianity or J4J and then either post there or here if you have any questions.

I have no problem answering you, but I've answered all of your questions in the past week.

Dauer

[Sephardic-male]

bump

[ryupower]

I've got some questions here:

Who's the son of God?

And will the Messiah be sacrificed for the World's sins?

And the Trinity was not made up after Timothy, it's in the Bible:

1 John 5:7-8
7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit ; and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.
NKJV

:p

[Sephardic-male]

[Who's the son of God?]


God says the Jews are His son.

“My son, My firstborn is Israel..." (Exodus 4:22)

“Thus says HaShem. Israel is My son, My firstborn” (Deuteronomy 4:22)

“When Israel was I child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called My son” (Hosea 11:1)

”He (Solomon) shall be a son to Me [G-d], and I a Father to him” (1 Chr 22:10)

He has said to me "You (David) are My son. Today I have begotten you. (Psalm 2:7)

And God repeated “I, too, will make him (David) a firstborn, supreme over the earth’s kings” (Psalms 89:27-28)

[And will the Messiah be sacrificed for the World's sins?]


[no one can die for the sins of another!
Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book. Exodus 32:32-33 (KJV)

The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin. Deuteronomy 24:16 (KJV)

Every man will die for his own sin!

In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge. Jeremiah 31:29-30 (KJV)

Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. Ezekiel 18:4 (KJV)

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. Ezekiel 18:20 (KJV) Repeats Verse 4 in Ezekiel 18. (above)

Then Ezekiel sums it up:

Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. Ezekiel 18:27-28 (KJV)]



And the Trinity was not made up after Timothy, it's in the Bible:

1 John 5:7-8
7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit ; and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.
NKJV


[The G-d of the Jews is not a Trinity


And besides me there is no G-d (Isaiah 44:6)
Here O Israel the L-rd is our G-d the L-rd is One (Deuteronomy 6:4)

The L-rd alone is G-d, The L-rd alone is G-d. (I Kings 19:39)

I, the L-rd, who was the first and will be the last as well. (Isaiah 41:4)

Know this day and lay it to thy heart that the L-rd, He is G-d in heaven above and the earth below there is none else. (Deuteronomy 3:39)

Unto you it was shown, that you might know, that the L-rd is G-d there is none else beside Him. Out of the heavens He made you, hear His voice, that He might instruct you. (Deuteronomy 4:35)

I am the L-rd your G-d . . . you shall have no other gods before me. (Exodus 20:2-3)

Before me no god was formed, and after me none shall exist. None but Me, the L-rd, besides Me none can grant triumph. I alone foretold the triumph . . (Isaiah 43:10-12)

O L-rd of hosts, enthroned on the cherubim! You alone are G-d of all the kingdom of the earth. (Isaiah 37:16)

Did not one G-d create us? (Malachi 2:10)

Do I not fill the heavens and the earth, says G-d (Jeremiah 254:24)



Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear O'Israel, the Lord is Our G-d, the Lord is one.

Job 6:10 Then should I yet have comfort; yea, I would harden myself in sorrow: let him not spare; for I have not concealed the words of the Holy One.

Psalms 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Psalms 71:22 I will also praise thee with the psaltery, even thy truth, O my God: unto thee will I sing with the harp, O thou Holy One of Israel.

Psalms 78:41 Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel.

Psalms 89:18 For the LORD is our defense; and the Holy One of Israel is our king.

Isaiah 1:4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.

Isaiah 1:24 Therefore saith the Lord, the LORD of hosts, the mighty One of Israel, Ah, I will ease me of mine adversaries, and avenge me of mine enemies:

Isaiah 5:19 That say, Let him make speed, and hasten his work, that we may see it: and let the counsel of the Holy One of Israel draw nigh and come, that we may know it!

Isaiah 5:24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.

Isaiah 10:17 And the light of Israel shall be for a fire, and his Holy One for a flame: and it shall burn and devour his thorns and his briers in one day;

Isaiah 10:20 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.

Isaiah 12:6 Cry out and shout, thou inhabitant of Zion: for great is the Holy One of Israel in the midst of thee.

Isaiah 17:7 At that day shall a man look to his Maker, and his eyes shall have respect to the Holy One of Israel.

Isaiah 29:19 The meek also shall increase their joy in the LORD, and the poor among men shall rejoice in the Holy One of Israel.

Isaiah 29:23 But when he seeth his children, the work of mine hands, in the midst of him, they shall sanctify my name, and sanctify the Holy One of Jacob, and shall fear the God of Israel.

Isaiah 30:11 Get you out of the way, turn aside out of the path, cause the Holy One of Israel to cease from before us.

Isaiah 30:12 Wherefore thus saith the Holy One of Israel, Because ye despise this word, and trust in oppression and perverseness, and stay thereon:

Isaiah 30:15 For thus saith the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel; In returning and rest shall ye be saved; in quietness and in confidence shall be your strength: and ye would not.

Isaiah 30:29 Ye shall have a song, as in the night when a holy solemnity is kept; and gladness of heart, as when one goeth with a pipe to come into the mountain of the LORD, to the mighty One of Israel.

Isaiah 31:1 Woe to them that go down to Egypt for help; and stay on horses, and trust in chariots, because they are many; and in horsemen, because they are very strong; but they look not unto the Holy One of Israel, neither seek the LORD!

Isaiah 37:23 Whom hast thou reproached and blasphemed? and against whom hast thou exalted thy voice, and lifted up thine eyes on high? even against the Holy One of Israel.

Isaiah 40:25 To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One.

Isaiah 41:14 Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel.

Isaiah 41:16 Thou shalt fan them, and the wind shall carry them away, and the whirlwind shall scatter them: and thou shalt rejoice in the LORD, and shalt glory in the Holy One of Israel.

Isaiah 41:20 That they may see, and know, and consider, and understand together, that the hand of the LORD hath done this, and the Holy One of Israel hath created it.

Isaiah 43:3 For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee.

Isaiah 43:14 Thus saith the LORD, your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; For your sake I have sent to Babylon, and have brought down all their nobles, and the Chaldeans, whose cry is in the ships.

Isaiah 43:15 I am the LORD, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King.

Isaiah 45:11 Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.

Isaiah 47:4 As for our redeemer, the LORD of hosts is his name, the Holy One of Israel.

Isaiah 48:17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

Isaiah 49:7 Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.

Isaiah 49:26 And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.

Isaiah 54:5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

Isaiah 55:5 Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, and nations that knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the LORD thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel; for he hath glorified thee.

Isaiah 57:15 For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

Isaiah 60:9 Surely the isles shall wait for me, and the ships of Tarshish first, to bring thy sons from far, their silver and their gold with them, unto the name of the LORD thy God, and to the Holy One of Israel, because he hath glorified thee.

Isaiah 60:14 The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee, The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel.

Isaiah 60:16 Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.

Jeremiah 50:29 Call together the archers against Babylon: all ye that bend the bow, camp against it round about; let none thereof escape: recompense her according to her work; according to all that she hath done, do unto her: for she hath been proud against the LORD, against the Holy One of Israel.

Jeremiah 51:5 For Israel hath not been forsaken, nor Judah of his God, of the LORD of hosts; though their land was filled with sin against the Holy One of Israel.

Ezekiel 39:7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.

Dan 4:13 I saw in the visions of my head upon my bed, and, behold, a watcher and an holy one came down from heaven;

Dan 4:23 And whereas the king saw a watcher and an holy one coming down from heaven, and saying, Hew the tree down, and destroy it; yet leave the stump of the roots thereof in the earth, even with a band of iron and brass, in the tender grass of the field; and let it be wet with the dew of heaven, and let his portion be with the beasts of the field, till seven times pass over him;

Hosea 11:9 I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city.

Zechariah 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

Malachi 2:10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers? ]

[ryupower]

God says the Jews are His son.

“My son, My firstborn is Israel..." (Exodus 4:22)

“Thus says HaShem. Israel is My son, My firstborn” (Deuteronomy 4:22)

“When Israel was I child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called My son” (Hosea 11:1)

”He (Solomon) shall be a son to Me [G-d], and I a Father to him” (1 Chr 22:10)

He has said to me "You (David) are My son. Today I have begotten you. (Psalm 2:7)

And God repeated “I, too, will make him (David) a firstborn, supreme over the earth’s kings” (Psalms 89:27-28)
You make some good points. :)

And will the Messiah be sacrificed for the World's sins?]


[no one can die for the sins of another!
Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book. Exodus 32:32-33 (KJV)

The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin. Deuteronomy 24:16 (KJV)

Every man will die for his own sin!

In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge. Jeremiah 31:29-30 (KJV)

Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. Ezekiel 18:4 (KJV)

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. Ezekiel 18:20 (KJV) Repeats Verse 4 in Ezekiel 18. (above)

Then Ezekiel sums it up:

Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. Ezekiel 18:27-28 (KJV)]



And the Trinity was not made up after Timothy, it's in the Bible:

1 John 5:7-8
7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit ; and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.
NKJV


[The G-d of the Jews is not a Trinity


And besides me there is no G-d (Isaiah 44:6)
Here O Israel the L-rd is our G-d the L-rd is One (Deuteronomy 6:4)

The L-rd alone is G-d, The L-rd alone is G-d. (I Kings 19:39)

I, the L-rd, who was the first and will be the last as well. (Isaiah 41:4)

Know this day and lay it to thy heart that the L-rd, He is G-d in heaven above and the earth below there is none else. (Deuteronomy 3:39)

Unto you it was shown, that you might know, that the L-rd is G-d there is none else beside Him. Out of the heavens He made you, hear His voice, that He might instruct you. (Deuteronomy 4:35)

I am the L-rd your G-d . . . you shall have no other gods before me. (Exodus 20:2-3)

Before me no god was formed, and after me none shall exist. None but Me, the L-rd, besides Me none can grant triumph. I alone foretold the triumph . . (Isaiah 43:10-12)

O L-rd of hosts, enthroned on the cherubim! You alone are G-d of all the kingdom of the earth. (Isaiah 37:16)

Did not one G-d create us? (Malachi 2:10)

Do I not fill the heavens and the earth, says G-d (Jeremiah 254:24)


Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear O'Israel, the Lord is Our G-d, the Lord is one.

Job 6:10 Then should I yet have comfort; yea, I would harden myself in sorrow: let him not spare; for I have not concealed the words of the Holy One.

Psalms 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Psalms 71:22 I will also praise thee with the psaltery, even thy truth, O my God: unto thee will I sing with the harp, O thou Holy One of Israel.

Psalms 78:41 Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel.

Psalms 89:18 For the LORD is our defense; and the Holy One of Israel is our king.

Isaiah 1:4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.

Isaiah 1:24 Therefore saith the Lord, the LORD of hosts, the mighty One of Israel, Ah, I will ease me of mine adversaries, and avenge me of mine enemies:

Isaiah 5:19 That say, Let him make speed, and hasten his work, that we may see it: and let the counsel of the Holy One of Israel draw nigh and come, that we may know it!

Isaiah 5:24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.

Isaiah 10:17 And the light of Israel shall be for a fire, and his Holy One for a flame: and it shall burn and devour his thorns and his briers in one day;

Isaiah 10:20 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.

Isaiah 12:6 Cry out and shout, thou inhabitant of Zion: for great is the Holy One of Israel in the midst of thee.

Isaiah 17:7 At that day shall a man look to his Maker, and his eyes shall have respect to the Holy One of Israel.

Isaiah 29:19 The meek also shall increase their joy in the LORD, and the poor among men shall rejoice in the Holy One of Israel.

Isaiah 29:23 But when he seeth his children, the work of mine hands, in the midst of him, they shall sanctify my name, and sanctify the Holy One of Jacob, and shall fear the God of Israel.

Isaiah 30:11 Get you out of the way, turn aside out of the path, cause the Holy One of Israel to cease from before us.

Isaiah 30:12 Wherefore thus saith the Holy One of Israel, Because ye despise this word, and trust in oppression and perverseness, and stay thereon:

Isaiah 30:15 For thus saith the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel; In returning and rest shall ye be saved; in quietness and in confidence shall be your strength: and ye would not.

Isaiah 30:29 Ye shall have a song, as in the night when a holy solemnity is kept; and gladness of heart, as when one goeth with a pipe to come into the mountain of the LORD, to the mighty One of Israel.

Isaiah 31:1 Woe to them that go down to Egypt for help; and stay on horses, and trust in chariots, because they are many; and in horsemen, because they are very strong; but they look not unto the Holy One of Israel, neither seek the LORD!

Isaiah 37:23 Whom hast thou reproached and blasphemed? and against whom hast thou exalted thy voice, and lifted up thine eyes on high? even against the Holy One of Israel.

Isaiah 40:25 To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One.

Isaiah 41:14 Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel.

Isaiah 41:16 Thou shalt fan them, and the wind shall carry them away, and the whirlwind shall scatter them: and thou shalt rejoice in the LORD, and shalt glory in the Holy One of Israel.

Isaiah 41:20 That they may see, and know, and consider, and understand together, that the hand of the LORD hath done this, and the Holy One of Israel hath created it.

Isaiah 43:3 For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee.

Isaiah 43:14 Thus saith the LORD, your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; For your sake I have sent to Babylon, and have brought down all their nobles, and the Chaldeans, whose cry is in the ships.

Isaiah 43:15 I am the LORD, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King.

Isaiah 45:11 Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.

Isaiah 47:4 As for our redeemer, the LORD of hosts is his name, the Holy One of Israel.

Isaiah 48:17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

Isaiah 49:7 Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.

Isaiah 49:26 And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.

Isaiah 54:5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

Isaiah 55:5 Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, and nations that knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the LORD thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel; for he hath glorified thee.

Isaiah 57:15 For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

Isaiah 60:9 Surely the isles shall wait for me, and the ships of Tarshish first, to bring thy sons from far, their silver and their gold with them, unto the name of the LORD thy God, and to the Holy One of Israel, because he hath glorified thee.

Isaiah 60:14 The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee, The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel.

Isaiah 60:16 Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.

Jeremiah 50:29 Call together the archers against Babylon: all ye that bend the bow, camp against it round about; let none thereof escape: recompense her according to her work; according to all that she hath done, do unto her: for she hath been proud against the LORD, against the Holy One of Israel.

Jeremiah 51:5 For Israel hath not been forsaken, nor Judah of his God, of the LORD of hosts; though their land was filled with sin against the Holy One of Israel.

Ezekiel 39:7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.

Dan 4:13 I saw in the visions of my head upon my bed, and, behold, a watcher and an holy one came down from heaven;

Dan 4:23 And whereas the king saw a watcher and an holy one coming down from heaven, and saying, Hew the tree down, and destroy it; yet leave the stump of the roots thereof in the earth, even with a band of iron and brass, in the tender grass of the field; and let it be wet with the dew of heaven, and let his portion be with the beasts of the field, till seven times pass over him;

Hosea 11:9 I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city.

Zechariah 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

Malachi 2:10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers? I see you're quoting out alot of Isaiah. So he's concidered valid for you . Than this may interest you :) :

Isaiah 53

53:1 The Sin-Bearing Messiah

Who has believed our report?And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? 2 For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant,And as a root out of dry ground.He has no form or comeliness;And when we see Him,There is no beauty that we should desire Him. 3 He is despised and rejected by men,A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief.And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him;He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
4 Surely He has borne our griefs And carried our sorrows;Yet we esteemed Him stricken,Smitten by God, and afflicted. 5 But He was wounded for our transgressions,He was bruised for our iniquities;The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,And by His stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray;We have turned, every one, to his own way;And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted,Yet He opened not His mouth;He was led as a lamb to the slaughter,And as a sheep before its shearers is silent,So He opened not His mouth. 8 He was taken from prison and from judgment,And who will declare His generation?For He was cut off from the land of the living;For the transgressions of My people He was stricken. 9 And they made His grave with the wicked — But with the rich at His death,Because He had done no violence,Nor was any deceit in His mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him;He has put Him to grief.When You make His soul an offering for sin,He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,And the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand. 11 He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied.By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,For He shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great,And He shall divide the spoil with the strong,Because He poured out His soul unto death,And He was numbered with the transgressors,And He bore the sin of many,And made intercession for the transgressors.

And I never said there were any other gods...

[Sephardic-male]

http://www.jdstone.org/cr/files/polemicsthesufferingservant.html



REFUTATION
Following are 12 questions to put to those who insist that Isaiah 53 refers to Jesus:

1) When was Jesus sick?

In Isaiah 53.3, it reads in Hebrew, “Ish machavot,” which refers to a man who is habitually or permanently sick. The New Testament portrays Jesus as one who is without spot or blemish; therefore, he must have been a healthy man. The only pain he bore was his crucifixion, which lasted several hours and was made lighter by the knowledge that his resurrection would take place three days later.

2) When was Jesus a leper?

Verse 4 reads: “He was “nagua,” meaning “stricken.” Yet, whenever the word nagua is used in the Hebrew Bible, it always refers to one who is stricken with leprosy, as seen in 2 Kings 15.5; Leviticus 13.3, 9, 20.

3) When was Jesus without form or comeliness and undesired, so that everyone despised and rejected him? (v. 3)

On the contrary ― the gospels insist that Jesus was greatly admired by large segments from every level of society. It is said: “He began teaching in the synagogues and was glorified by all.” (Luke 4.14―15); “and the news about him went out into all Syria” (Matt. 4.24); “and as his fame grew, a great crowd came together with those that went with him from various cities” (Luke 8.4); “and great crowds followed him from Galilee, Decapolis and Jerusalem and Judea and from the other side of the Jordan” (Matt. 4.25).

Can such a person be described as being “despised and rejected of men” or one from whom “men hid their faces and esteemed him not”? If the fundamentalist replies by saying that Jesus was despised and rejected by those men who ordered his crucifixion, we point out the difference between the words “anashim,” the “rulers” and “ishim,” the “common people”. In verse 2 in the Hebrew Bible, it clearly states that “he was despised and rejected by the ishim, the general populace.” Yet, according to the gospels, “As he went to be crucified, large crowds wept for him.” (Luke 23.27)

4) Why wasn’t Jesus humble? (v. 7)

The gospel records haughty words coming from his lips. For example, “Bring those who would not have me rule over them and slay them before my face” (Luke 19.27); “Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that believeth on me hath everlasting life” (John 6.47); “He that has seen me hath seen the Father” (John 14.9).

All these verses and many more, especially in John’s gospel, show that Jesus was not a humble man but one who thought very highly of himself.

5) Why didn’t Jesus remain silent, as the servant of this chapter was supposed to?

V. 7: “He was oppressed but he humbled himself and opened not his mouth: as a lamb which is brought to the slaughter and as a sheep before his shearers is dumb, so he did not open his mouth.”

However, in the gospel accounts of the trial and crucifixion, Jesus says a number of things:

John 18.19―23: “The high priest then asked Jesus of his disciples and of his doctrine. Jesus answered him: ‘I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue and in the Temple, whither the Jews always resort and in secret have I said nothing. Why asketh thou me? Ask them who heard me what I said unto them; behold, they know what I said.’ and when he had thus spoken, one of the officers which stood by struck Jesus with the palm of his hand, saying, ‘Answereth thou the high priest so?’ Jesus answered him, ‘If I have spoken evil, bear witness of the evil but if well, why smitest thou me?’“

Luke 23.3: “and Pilate asked him, saying, ‘Art thou the king of the Jews?’ and he answered him and said, ‘Thou sayest it.’“

John 18.33―37: “Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again and called Jesus and said unto him, ‘Art thou the king of the Jews?’ Jesus answered him, ‘Sayest thou this thing of thyself or did others tell thee of me?’ Pilate answered, ‘Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me. What hast thou done?’ Jesus answered, ‘My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight that I should not be delivered to the Jews ― but now is my kingdom not from hence.’ Pilate therefore said unto him, ‘Art thou a king then?’ Jesus answered, ‘Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Everyone that is of the truth heareth my voice.’“

Matt. 26.63: “and the high priest answered and said unto him, ‘I adjure thee by the living God that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the son of God.’ Jesus said unto him, ‘Thou hast said it: Nevertheless, I say unto you, hereafter shall ye see the son of man sitting at the right hand of power and coming in the clouds of heaven.’“

He also said, ‘Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me but weep for yourselves’, etc. (Luke 23.28) and besides these, there were a number of well―known sayings on the cross.

All these scriptures clearly show that whilst being questioned about his messianic pretensions, far from being humble and silent, as Isaiah describes the servant in verse 7, Jesus said much. We find that the encounter between the high priest, the elders and Jesus is highlighted by a vigorous verbal exchange. Also with Pilate, Jesus is depicted as skillfully defending himself.

In his last moments, he railed in the face of the Holy God: “My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me?” Besides this, there is the implicit blasphemy of John 19.11. Jesus answered, “Thou couldest have no power at all against me except it were given thee from above: therefore, He that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.” Thus God, the “power from above”, must have sinned.

6) Why did Jesus use violence and speak violence when verse 9 states: “This servant had done no violence”?

We read in the New Testament how Jesus, whip in hand, overturned tables in the Temple (John 2.15). He caused the death of a herd of swine (Mark 5.12―13). He cursed a poor fig tree because it did not bear figs out of season (Matt. 21.19―20) and he used verbal violence (Luke 19.27). He said, “Think not that I come to send peace but a sword.” (Matthew 10.34)

7) Why did Jesus deceive people?

Verse 9 says that deceit was not found in his mouth. It is clear that Jesus was a false prophet. He deceived his disciples into believing he would return in their lifetime:

“Many standing here shall not taste of death until they have seen the Kingdom of God come with power.” (Mark 9.1); “I come quickly and my reward is with me.” (Rev. 22.7, 12, 20)

He promised a hundredfold in this life to all who left everything to follow him (Mark 10.28―29) (Imagine a hundred houses, a hundred fields, a hundred wives, etc...) Yet, those who had left all to follow him died in poverty.

8) Why was Jesus not buried with the wicked, as according to verse 9?

The gospels state that Jesus was buried in the tomb of a righteous man, who was one of his disciples (Matt. 27.57―60).

Are we to presume this man was a wicked disciple?

9) Why were there no rich people crucified with him?

Verse 9 says that “his death was with the rich” but the gospels say that he died between two thieves (Mark 15.27).

Maybe they were rich thieves?

10) When did Jesus have children?

Verse 10 says: “He shall see his offspring (zerah).”

When God promised Avraham “zerah”, along came Yitzhak, a real, physical offspring, as the Hebrew word “zerah” implies ― but where was Jesus’s offspring? Are we to assume that he had illegitimate children?

11) When were Jesus’s days lengthened?

Why did he die so young? Verse 10 says: “That is days shall be lengthened.”

12) If Jesus is God, as the missionaries claim, then how can one who is eternal have his days prolonged?

Another objection to the fundamentalists’ claim that Isaiah 53 refers to Jesus is that they have been misled by the compilers of their Christian bibles. It is necessary to point out that the passage begins not with Isaiah 53, v. 1 ― but v. 13 of the previous chapter. In Hebrew, the scripture portions are divided by stumas. A space of several letters can be found at the closing of a passage before the next passage begins. This can only be seen in a Hebrew Bible. A Torah scribe has strictly to follow these rules.

By reading the passage in its entirety, we learn that God is speaking to His servant and that the servant shall prosper and be exalted and be very high. (Isaiah 52.13)

The next thing we find is the name of the servant. To do that, we need only refer to several verses also found in the Book of Isaiah, such as Isaiah 41.8, Isaiah 44.1―2 and Isaiah 45.4, which all state that the name of the servant is Israel ― but was Israel “nagua” ― stricken with leprosy?

In the New International Commentary of the Old Testament, Edward J. Young, Professor of the Old Testament at the Westminster Theological Seminary in Philadelphia, elaborates: “Nagua (stricken) has been interpreted by many to refer to smiting with leprosy. In 2 Kings 15.5, we read: ‘and the Lord afflicted the king and he became leprous’.” Duhm also maintained that the servant was a leper, who died from the disease. Peter R. Ackroyd, Professor of Old Testament Studies at the University of London, in his study of Isaiah 53, found in the Interpreters’ One―Volume Commentary on the Bible, notes that “‘stricken’ is an appropriate word for continuing the leprosy metaphor” found in this chapter. He comments that “a man involved in pain and humiliation by sickness, hiding his face from us; we despised him and did not esteem him” are words found in the chapter and, he says, “it is difficult to imagine a more appropriate way to suggest the language to (describe) such a disease.”

If the suffering servant of Isaiah 53 is Israel, how then is it possible for this servant to be described as being a leper? The link is clear and plainly stated in Isaiah 1.1, where we read: “The vision of Isaiah... the days of Uzziah... Isaiah was contemporary with King Uzziah and lived through to the time of the king’s death. Isaiah was well acquainted with Uzziah’s experience (chap. 6.1)

King Uzziah, although he was a good king towards his people during his long reign of 52 years, failed in his first duty under God by allowing the worship of strange gods within the land. Added to this fault, he ambitiously took it upon himself to enter the Temple and, assuming the priestly office, went on to burn the sacred incense before the Holy One of Israel. For this intrusion into holy orders, he was smitten of God with the dreaded disease of leprosy and so remained a leper, isolated from his people unto the day of his death. (2 Kings 15.5)

It seems the lesson Isaiah is putting before the people is: “Here is your leprous king, who is in type suffering under God’s Hand for you, the backsliding servant nation of Israel.” (Isaiah 53.6)

A commentary in the light of this historical background would point to such verses as 53.2: “He shot up as a sapling.” Due to his father’s death in battle, Uzziah had to take the throne at the early age of 16 years. Again, in 53.8: “He was taken away.” Due to his affliction as a leper, he was taken away from the royal palace, his court and people, to spend his life in a house of isolation unto the day of his death. “He was cut off out of the land of the living.” “For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due.” ― and so, the comparisons between the experience of the historical King Uzziah are so numerous that one can conclude that Isaiah is describing here this king and not an illusory suffering savior on a cross.

Israel is portrayed as a suffering servant on account of its anointed leader being stricken with leprosy. Israel, like the leper, is a suffering servant of God. Both have suffered humiliation at the hands of their fellowmen ― the leper because of his unsightly appearance and Israel, through its defeat at the hands of the Babylonians.

The gist of the message is that Israel, like the leper, has suffered but nevertheless will retain its identity in the form of the exiled Jewish People and that they will prosper in this form. The Jewish People in fact continued to grow and prosper until the 4th century CE (AD), when Christianity became the sole state religion of the Roman world and the forcible suppression of non–Christian religions began.

[ryupower]

REFUTATION
Following are 12 questions to put to those who insist that Isaiah 53 refers to Jesus:

1) When was Jesus sick?

In Isaiah 53.3, it reads in Hebrew, “Ish machavot,” which refers to a man who is habitually or permanently sick. The New Testament portrays Jesus as one who is without spot or blemish; therefore, he must have been a healthy man. The only pain he bore was his crucifixion, which lasted several hours and was made lighter by the knowledge that his resurrection would take place three days later. This verse should explain it:

Through His stripes, we are healed.

Basicly, when he was on the cross, He took all our sickness upon Himself.


2) When was Jesus a leper?

Verse 4 reads: “He was “nagua,” meaning “stricken.” Yet, whenever the word nagua is used in the Hebrew Bible, it always refers to one who is stricken with leprosy, as seen in 2 Kings 15.5; Leviticus 13.3, 9, 20.
Ditto my previous sentence.

3) When was Jesus without form or comeliness and undesired, so that everyone despised and rejected him? (v. 3)

On the contrary ― the gospels insist that Jesus was greatly admired by large segments from every level of society. It is said: “He began teaching in the synagogues and was glorified by all.” (Luke 4.14―15); “and the news about him went out into all Syria” (Matt. 4.24); “and as his fame grew, a great crowd came together with those that went with him from various cities” (Luke 8.4); “and great crowds followed him from Galilee, Decapolis and Jerusalem and Judea and from the other side of the Jordan” (Matt. 4.25).

Can such a person be described as being “despised and rejected of men” or one from whom “men hid their faces and esteemed him not”? If the fundamentalist replies by saying that Jesus was despised and rejected by those men who ordered his crucifixion, we point out the difference between the words “anashim,” the “rulers” and “ishim,” the “common people”. In verse 2 in the Hebrew Bible, it clearly states that “he was despised and rejected by the ishim, the general populace.” Yet, according to the gospels, “As he went to be crucified, large crowds wept for him.” (Luke 23.27)
Yes, that's true, but He was, on the same time, despised:

John 15:18-25

"If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. 19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. 20 Remember the word that I said to you,'A servant is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also. 21 But all these things they will do to you for My name's sake, because they do not know Him who sent Me. 22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would have no sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin. 23 He who hates Me hates My Father also. 24 If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would have no sin; but now they have seen and also hated both Me and My Father. 25 But this happened that the word might be fulfilled which is written in their law, 'They hated Me without a cause.'
NKJV

And yes, we Christians have a tough time with the society. Since they concider Christianity to be 'uncool' ( you do too, because you're Jews. :P ).

Besides, He was severely rejected by the Jewish people. When He was standing next to pontious pilot all the Jewish people said : Crucify Him, crucidy Him!!
That's rejection, they didn't like Him, they despised Him.

He was also rejected by His Father:

Mark 15:34-37
34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" which is translated, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?"

35 Some of those who stood by, when they heard that, said, "Look, He is calling for Elijah!" 36 Then someone ran and filled a sponge full of sour wine, put it on a reed, and offered it to Him to drink, saying, "Let Him alone; let us see if Elijah will come to take Him down."

37 And Jesus cried out with a loud voice, and breathed His last.
NKJV


4) Why wasn’t Jesus humble? (v. 7)

The gospel records haughty words coming from his lips. For example, “Bring those who would not have me rule over them and slay them before my face” (Luke 19.27); “Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that believeth on me hath everlasting life” (John 6.47); “He that has seen me hath seen the Father” (John 14.9).

All these verses and many more, especially in John’s gospel, show that Jesus was not a humble man but one who thought very highly of himself.
He was really humble, but G-d on the same time.(sorry for that)
He really disliked pride. And He never struck back. That's a reason why Christians basicly 'kill'
themselves ( not lit.) not to be prideful.

I don't see how those verses make Him not humble, if He didn't say who He was, He'da be lying...

5) Why didn’t Jesus remain silent, as the servant of this chapter was supposed to?

V. 7: “He was oppressed but he humbled himself and opened not his mouth: as a lamb which is brought to the slaughter and as a sheep before his shearers is dumb, so he did not open his mouth.”

However, in the gospel accounts of the trial and crucifixion, Jesus says a number of things:

John 18.19―23: “The high priest then asked Jesus of his disciples and of his doctrine. Jesus answered him: ‘I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue and in the Temple, whither the Jews always resort and in secret have I said nothing. Why asketh thou me? Ask them who heard me what I said unto them; behold, they know what I said.’ and when he had thus spoken, one of the officers which stood by struck Jesus with the palm of his hand, saying, ‘Answereth thou the high priest so?’ Jesus answered him, ‘If I have spoken evil, bear witness of the evil but if well, why smitest thou me?’“

Luke 23.3: “and Pilate asked him, saying, ‘Art thou the king of the Jews?’ and he answered him and said, ‘Thou sayest it.’“

John 18.33―37: “Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again and called Jesus and said unto him, ‘Art thou the king of the Jews?’ Jesus answered him, ‘Sayest thou this thing of thyself or did others tell thee of me?’ Pilate answered, ‘Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me. What hast thou done?’ Jesus answered, ‘My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight that I should not be delivered to the Jews ― but now is my kingdom not from hence.’ Pilate therefore said unto him, ‘Art thou a king then?’ Jesus answered, ‘Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Everyone that is of the truth heareth my voice.’“

Matt. 26.63: “and the high priest answered and said unto him, ‘I adjure thee by the living God that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the son of God.’ Jesus said unto him, ‘Thou hast said it: Nevertheless, I say unto you, hereafter shall ye see the son of man sitting at the right hand of power and coming in the clouds of heaven.’“

He also said, ‘Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me but weep for yourselves’, etc. (Luke 23.28) and besides these, there were a number of well―known sayings on the cross.

All these scriptures clearly show that whilst being questioned about his messianic pretensions, far from being humble and silent, as Isaiah describes the servant in verse 7, Jesus said much. We find that the encounter between the high priest, the elders and Jesus is highlighted by a vigorous verbal exchange. Also with Pilate, Jesus is depicted as skillfully defending himself.

In his last moments, he railed in the face of the Holy God: “My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me?” Besides this, there is the implicit blasphemy of John 19.11. Jesus answered, “Thou couldest have no power at all against me except it were given thee from above: therefore, He that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.” Thus God, the “power from above”, must have sinned.


I believed it referred to Him not cursing anyone. And He didn't talk when He was ' led to the slaughter'... but that's me. There are probably other interpretations.
Also, when they beat Him up, He never opened His mouth.

6) Why did Jesus use violence and speak violence when verse 9 states: “This servant had done no violence”?

We read in the New Testament how Jesus, whip in hand, overturned tables in the Temple (John 2.15). He caused the death of a herd of swine (Mark 5.12―13). He cursed a poor fig tree because it did not bear figs out of season (Matt. 21.19―20) and he used verbal violence (Luke 19.27). He said, “Think not that I come to send peace but a sword.” (Matthew 10.34) Wouldn't you have done the same if you loved G-d as much as He did? Jesus had zeal for G-d's house. it's even prophecied:

Psalms 69:9
9 Because zeal for Your house has eaten me up,
And the reproaches of those who reproach You have fallen on me.
NKJV

The swine thing wasn't necessarily violance, it was more like sacrifice. The sword thing was a parabble! I can't believe the guy took it Literally...


And the fig tree was put as an example:
The fig tree looked pleasing to the eye, and healthy, ( People claiming that they're Christians ), but when He looked, there were no fruits ( These people, claim they're Christians, but they truely aren't. They don't follow a word in the Bible)
7) Why did Jesus deceive people?

Verse 9 says that deceit was not found in his mouth. It is clear that Jesus was a false prophet. He deceived his disciples into believing he would return in their lifetime:

“Many standing here shall not taste of death until they have seen the Kingdom of God come with power.” (Mark 9.1); “I come quickly and my reward is with me.” (Rev. 22.7, 12, 20)

He promised a hundredfold in this life to all who left everything to follow him (Mark 10.28―29) (Imagine a hundred houses, a hundred fields, a hundred wives, etc...) Yet, those who had left all to follow him died in poverty. Oh, so now all of a suddon you care what Revelation says, no?

I don't see that as deception. And Jesus was refering to heaven I believe, not the world.

8) Why was Jesus not buried with the wicked, as according to verse 9?

The gospels state that Jesus was buried in the tomb of a righteous man, who was one of his disciples (Matt. 27.57―60).

Are we to presume this man was a wicked disciple?
He was buried in his place, not with him.

9) Why were there no rich people crucified with him?

Verse 9 says that “his death was with the rich” but the gospels say that he died between two thieves (Mark 15.27).

Maybe they were rich thieves? It doesn't necessarily mean it had to be wealth. It could have been spiritual.
So one could interpret " Died With ( along with, probably another way to say 'as'), the rich ( He was a rich man at heart, he died because He loved you enough to lay His life down.)

Also, He was buried in a rich man's tomb.

10) When did Jesus have children?

Verse 10 says: “He shall see his offspring (zerah).”

When God promised Avraham “zerah”, along came Yitzhak, a real, physical offspring, as the Hebrew word “zerah” implies ― but where was Jesus’s offspring? Are we to assume that he had illegitimate children? What? O.o;
Almost sounds like the Da Vinci code. :P

No, he didn't have Children. Sure this couldn't imply spiritual? ( Come to think of it, was Adam G-d's physical offspring? If so, since we all came from Adam and Eve, and since Jesus was G-d in the flesh, it could mean physical....)

1 1) When were Jesus’s days lengthened?

Why did he die so young? Verse 10 says: “That is days shall be lengthened.” I never thought of that verse. But it probably referred to the fact that He resurected, and walked around on Earth, AFTER His Earthly death.

[Sephardic-male]

JESUS, LAMB OR GOAT?


Hugh Fogelman





Christians maintain Jesus was the Passover Lamb, a “HUMAN” sacrifice for the sins of all. But what does God say about this? Two points must be addressed.

ONE: Christians claim Jesus was a sacrifice for the sins of all, meaning all people for all sins for all times. Chapter 4 of Leviticus lists offerings that are “required” to atone for sins, in contrast to other offerings. These “sin” offerings cannot atone for sins that were committed INTENTIONALLY. No offerings is sufficient to remove the stain of such sinfulness; that can be done only through repentance and a change of the attitudes that made it possible for the transgressor to flout God’s will.

That is right; no sacrifice can be offered or accepted by one who sins intentionally. Since the Christian sacrifice aka Jesus, is supposed to be the one great sacrifice for the sins of all," then it cannot be “for all sinners, and all sins, for all time.” In other words, sin-offerings were never meant for ALL.

On the other hand, Sin-offerings are needed to atone for deeds that were committed “INADVERTENTLY,” as a result of carelessness, accident and without intent, (Leviticus 4:2 and Leviticus 4:22).

TWO: Leviticus 4:21: And he shall carry forth the bullock without the camp, and burn him as he burned the first bullock: is a sin offering for the congregation. "Bullock"? I thought we were meant to believe that Jesus was a lamb?

Leviticus 4:23: “Or if his sin, wherein he hath sinned, come to his knowledge; he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a male without blemish” "Jesus, a Kid of the goats"?

And all these years Christians were taught that Jesus was a lamb?

Leviticus 4:27-28: And if any one of the common people sin through ignorance, while he doeth somewhat against any of the commandments of the Lord concerning things which ought not to be done, and be guilty; Or if his sin, which he hath sinned, come to his knowledge: then he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he hath sinned.

A "kid of the goats, a female without blemish?" Were not Christians taught that Jesus was to be a sacrificial lamb? Was not Jesus a male? So, the more we examine this sacrificial lamb thing, it just shows that the Christian sacrifice was not a real sacrifice for the common people after all. But wait, it seems one can bring a lamb, after all.

Leviticus 4:32: And if he bring a lamb for a sin offering, he shall bring it a female without blemish. The key word here is “without.” The Christian Bible clearly says Jesus was whipped bloody, blood ran down his forehead from the Crown of Thorns and he was circumcised. These alone would disqualify him, for he was NOT without blemish. Oops, I about forgot, Jesus was not a female either―just one more little detail that slips through Christian minds.

Leviticus 4:12: Even the whole bullock shall he carry forth without the camp unto a clean place, where the ashes are poured out, and burn him on the wood with fire: where the ashes are poured out shall he be burnt.

Leviticus 4:18 And he shall put some of the blood upon the horns of the altar which is before the Lord, that is in the tabernacle of the congregation, and shall pour out all the blood at the bottom of the altar of the burnt offering, which is at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

When was the "sacrifice" of Jesus burnt? How can Jesus be a "perfect" sacrifice, if his death does not conform to God's Laws concerning sacrifice? Only if you change the rules set forth by God. Now, who would change the unmitigated gall to G-d’s rules? Do you have the authority to change G-d’s laws, rules and/or procedures? Does your preacher have this authority? Or perhaps Paul? In one word, NO!

Leviticus 4:13-14 And if the whole congregation of Israel sin through ignorance, and the thing be hid from the eyes of the assembly, and they have done somewhat against any of the commandments of the Lord concerning things which should not be done, and are guilty; When the sin, which they have sinned against it, is known, then the congregation shall offer a young bullock for the sin, and bring him before the tabernacle of the congregation.

"Bullock"? I thought we were meant to believe that Jesus was a lamb? How is Jesus supposed to be a sacrifice for sin, as according to Leviticus Chapter 4, if these sacrifices all speak of "unintentional sins?"

Leviticus 4:35 And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat of the lamb is taken away from the sacrifice of the peace offerings; and the priest shall burn them upon the altar, according to the offerings made by fire unto the Lord: and the priest shall make an atonement for his sin that he hath committed, and it shall be forgiven him.

Jesus, unless the rules had been changed, was not an acceptable sacrifice! One small detail that Christians apparently forget, the fact that God does not accept human blood sacrifices. But, overlooking that “small” detail, Christians should at least now realize that Jesus was not:

perfect, as his flesh was torn;

a bullock;

a kid of the goats,

a female lamb; and

burnt on the altar.

Even if Jesus had conformed to these criteria, he could not have been a sacrifice for “intentional” sins.

The only place in the Christian Bible that makes the claim that Jesus took away the sin of the world is found in John 1:29. Here, John the Baptist, upon seeing Jesus, makes this claim; “Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world!”

Christians took those two phases and made them world renowned:

(1) Lamb of God; and

(2) taketh away the sin of the world.

Anyone who knows Torah would certainly know that associating lamb to sin must follow the rules established by God.

For the “Outer chatas/sin offerings,” for personal sin/variable chatas the lamb MUST be female. For Nazir Tahor and Metzora, the lamb MUST also be female.

For burnt offerings (Olah) the male lambs are used. HOWEVER, there is no mentioned of any sin and the male offerings once died MUST be burnt.

For guilt offerings (asham) the male lamb was used.

For peace offerings (shelamim) the male lamb was used

For Pesach (Passover) the male lamb WITHOUT blemish was used. Two important rules must be followed: (1) the lamb MUST be without blemish (2) there is no association of any sin involved.

For Yom Kippur, the male goat (kid) was indeed used to take away our sins.

Answer these questions for yourself!

Which “offerings” would you apply to Jesus?

Was Jesus a symbol of a lamb or a goat?

These are very important questions! Your life may very well ride on your answers. Answer honestly, answer accurately and then you will be right.

Truth is in Torah, not in the Christian bible.



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http://jdstone.org/cr/files/jesuslamborgoat_2.html

[heron]

The truth lies in neither one of those books Shepardic.

Just because the book of your god, and the other
gods of your past, still survived is testement only
to the fact that it was written down.

It doesnt make it the truth, only a well written
book of a tribal god who convienced a people
to be his children.

You have to claim all of these things in your gods
name, and try to prove them. All these things he
proclaimed. My gods proclaimed none of these things.

Does saying your cool make you cool? nope, being cool
goes without saying.

Its like that, whoever proclaims it most usually isnt it.