My letter to Mr. Bush

[FreeBird1969]

Dear Mr. President,

I am sure you know the nature of this letter, as I have written you numerous times before. You have yet to respond, and I take that to heart. I may be but a mere 15 year old girl, and you may be the highest working authority in this nation, but you, a white-collared conservative, still do not have the privelage of waving your plastic finger at me.

Just recently, 60 Minutes aired a segment on ex-militants that have been called back into active duty. These men and women are 40, 50 some even 60 years old, and thei lives are being put on the front lines to be hacked away, not by the Iraqis, but by your horrible tyrrant on the Iraqi oil fields. Yes, I know your true intentions, and don't think for a second that I am the only one.

My father is a forty-three year old Desert Storm veteran. He served in the Airforce from the time he was 18 to the time he was 34. He did as he was told, and according to his commanding officer, he was an all around good soldier. Now he is at the risk of fighting, not for his nation's war, but for the oil companies' war. I want you to answer me one thing, Mr. Bush.

Will my father die for the oil industry like all the rest?

He has been out of the armed forces for ten years now, but then again Vietnam veterans are being pulled into your web of energy-greed. I sincerely want you to respond to this plea, and do not send me a response from your secretary.

Sincerely,
Krystin

[Lucifer Sam]

It's nice... but don't expect him to give a shit.

[SunFree]

It's like in the French revolution. The third estate were all encouraged to write letters straight to Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette, there was a special name for them but I don't remember exactly what... started with a 'C.' There were lots of petitions, formal complaints, etc, but there were also thousands of personal pleas and stories about how they were suffering under the system.

[FreeBird1969]

It's nice... but don't expect him to give a shit.
Ah, but I'm going to give it to him in person. I live somewhere near Crawford, and he's going to read my letter and I'm going to make him answer me and cry for me. :)

[SunFree]

Make sure you have someone with a video camera there...that might stimulate a response, AND get proof of sympathy/absence there of... :p

[matthew]

Ah, but I'm going to give it to him in person. I live somewhere near Crawford, and he's going to read my letter and I'm going to make him answer me and cry for me. :)
don't you think he gets shit like this every day...it is not even that original..

[FreeBird1969]

Most definetely. I'm always open to using the media to my advantage.

[Burbot]

get a news crew if you can...that would be funny

[FreeBird1969]

don't you think he gets shit like this every day...it is not even that original..
I don't think it matters if it's original. I'm doing something about it, and not just talking about it.

[matthew]

I don't think it matters if it's original. I'm doing something about it, and not just talking about it.
doing what ??

list the actions that you see a wrong
list the lies (in your opinion)
tell him what you think of his dicisions


but sending him shit like

I am sure you know the nature of this letter, as I have written you numerous times before. You have yet to respond, and I take that to heart. I may be but a mere 15 year old girl, and you may be the highest working authority in this nation, but you, a white-collared conservative, still do not have the privelage of waving your plastic finger at me.

Just recently, 60 Minutes aired a segment on ex-militants that have been called back into active duty. These men and women are 40, 50 some even 60 years old, and thei lives are being put on the front lines to be hacked away, not by the Iraqis, but by your horrible tyrrant on the Iraqi oil fields. Yes, I know your true intentions, and don't think for a second that I am the only one.

My father is a forty-three year old Desert Storm veteran. He served in the Airforce from the time he was 18 to the time he was 34. He did as he was told, and according to his commanding officer, he was an all around good soldier. Now he is at the risk of fighting, not for his nation's war, but for the oil companies' war. I want you to answer me one thing, Mr. Bush.

Will my father die for the oil industry like all the rest?

He has been out of the armed forces for ten years now, but then again Vietnam veterans are being pulled into your web of energy-greed. I sincerely want you to respond to this plea, and do not send me a response from your secretary.

is a waste of a postage stamp.

[FreeBird1969]

doing what ??

list the actions that you see a wrong
list the lies (in your opinion)
tell him what you think of his dicisions


but sending him shit like


is a waste of a postage stamp.
Okay. :)

[matthew]

Okay. :)
:)

So what are you going to say instead ??...though i think your still going to send this michael mooreish letter anyway ..;)

http://www.blogsforbush.com/mt/archives/001924.html

[FreeBird1969]

I don't know, I'll think about it...I just woke up and got hit in the head with it. I'll probably take your advice eventually, but for now let's just say that I'll send my 'michael moorish' letter to him anyways...:)

[matthew]

I don't know, I'll think about it...I just woke up and got hit in the head with it. I'll probably take your advice eventually, but for now let's just say that I'll send my 'michael moorish' letter to him anyways...:)well it is a waste of your time but ????

if you do have something more then this thread is a good place to let us all know :) ..their is enough stuff on this forum to go realy wild on his ass..even though personaly i think most of it is bullshit...but thats another letter to you and him i guess.

[PhluffHead 4]

Bush's reaction- hmmm I wonder if Ms. Rice will fuck me today.

[matthew]

Bush's reaction- hmmm I wonder if Ms. Rice will fuck me today.
was that supposed to be funny ???

[PhluffHead 4]

No, you can tell by the way he looks at her that he wants it.

[CosmicKatie]

Freebird1969, I think it's awesome that you took the time to write a letter to him. It is people like you that make things happen. People like matthew obviously don't understand the meaning of the term "constructive criticism." Keep doing what you're doing and don't let anyone's attempt to bash your ideas get you down. I am proud to have you as a sister American.

[matthew]

No, you can tell by the way he looks at her that he wants it.
was that supposed to be funny ??



Freebird1969, I think it's awesome that you took the time to write a letter to him. It is people like you that make things happen. People like matthew obviously don't understand the meaning of the term "constructive criticism." Keep doing what you're doing and don't let anyone's attempt to bash your ideas get you down. I am proud to have you as a sister American.


I think i was quite constructive..it just seemed the letter FreeBird1969 'wrote' was not actualy her story at all.. forgive me if i am wrong FreeBird1969 . So sending a letter about soldiers dying for oil is at best a stale arguement that will get no reply at all..sending a letter that is maybe a bit more truthful (again sorry FreeBird1969 if your telling the truth) rather than some cut and paste job is better.. The letter just looks phony to me.

[soulrebel51]

I think i was quite constructive..it just seemed the letter FreeBird1969 'wrote' was not actualy her story at all.. forgive me if i am wrong FreeBird1969 . So sending a letter about soldiers dying for oil is at best a stale arguement that will get no reply at all..sending a letter that is maybe a bit more truthful (again sorry FreeBird1969 if your telling the truth) rather than some cut and paste job is better.. The letter just looks phony to me.
After reading the letter I have to say that it's alright, but not phony, could be better.... what's phony about her own dad getting sent overseas?

I think you should rewrite some parts, sound more convincing, and sad....sad that you might never see your dad again.

[matthew]

After reading the letter I have to say that it's alright, but not phony, could be better.... what's phony about her own dad getting sent overseas?

I think you should rewrite some parts, sound more convincing, and sad....sad that you might never see your dad again.
well i just looked at
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: in the houses of the holy
Age: 14
Lady


and then read


I may be but a mere 15 year old girl

and that did not look right ... maybe a perfectly innocent error.



I think you should rewrite some parts, sound more convincing, and sad....sad that you might never see your dad again.

And what would that achieve..maybe a letter from her dad to her ...telling her his worries and actual personal stories of the plight he sees, may be better than banging on about the iraq war being all about oil...

[mynameisjake07]

he'll prolly wipe his ass with it

[matthew]

he'll prolly wipe his ass with it
And if he sent a heart felt reply..you would probably say he got someone else to write it ..and that he was still full of shit..yeah yeah yeah, the chap can't win can he.

[soulrebel51]

And what would that achieve..maybe a letter from her dad to her ...telling her his worries and actual personal stories of the plight he sees, may be better than banging on about the iraq war being all about oil...
Yeah I don't think it'll get a response either, or even read for that matter, but it makes more sense to try then not..

[mynameisjake07]

And if he sent a heart felt reply..you would probably say he got someone else to write it ..and that he was still full of shit..yeah yeah yeah, the chap can't win can he.
dude what are you talking about

[matthew]

dude what are you talking about
I am saying you would not be happy whatever Mr Bush said or did .... prolly.

[FreeBird1969]

well i just looked at
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: in the houses of the holy
Age: 14
Lady


and then read


I may be but a mere 15 year old girl

and that did not look right ... maybe a perfectly innocent error.



And what would that achieve..maybe a letter from her dad to her ...telling her his worries and actual personal stories of the plight he sees, may be better than banging on about the iraq war being all about oil...
I'll be 15 in 2 months dear sir. :) I was planning on revising it anyways before anybody said anything and send it out sometime after February so as not to be lying. :)

[matthew]

I'll be 15 in 2 months dear sir. :) I was planning on revising it anyways before anybody said anything and send it out sometime after February so as not to be lying. :)I have read so many letters they all seem like the same , sorry i did not mean to offend you.

rep:

maybe you should try being supportive instead of a jerk.
I was actualy trying to be supportive not a jerk... as i am a jerk 90% of the time being suportive is sometimes difficult :rolleyes: and i do it badly.

[prism]

Ah, but I'm going to give it to him in person. I live somewhere near Crawford, and he's going to read my letter and I'm going to make him answer me and cry for me. :)
...he'll probably be surrounded by his SS friends anyhow. Good luck getting past those guys. :rolleyes:

[matthew]

...he'll probably be surrounded by his SS friends anyhow. Good luck getting past those guys. :rolleyes:I can laugh at that

http://www.casi.org.uk/discuss/2002/msg01350.html

http://www.nogw.com/nazibush.html

But i disagree, and find comparisons sick

http://www.nogw.com/images/nazi-twins.jpg

How funny...their is probably a point behind it all, i just don't think it is very appropriate.

You can give me a negative rep if you want, for being a humourless jackass..;)

[prism]

Heh..."Rambo" Rumsfeld....that pic totally weirded me out. :eek:

oh, and I meant to say: ss=secret service (i was just too lazy to type it)

[FreeBird1969]

I can laugh at that

http://www.casi.org.uk/discuss/2002/msg01350.html

http://www.nogw.com/nazibush.html

But i disagree, and find comparisons sick

http://www.nogw.com/images/nazi-twins.jpg

How funny...their is probably a point behind it all, i just don't think it is very appropriate.

You can give me a negative rep if you want, for being a humourless jackass..;)
That's so eery...:eek: But funny. :D

[matthew]

Heh..."Rambo" Rumsfeld....that pic totally weirded me out. :eek:

oh, and I meant to say: ss=secret service (i was just too lazy to type it)
I will let you off then hahahahaha.. if your feeling bored sometime read some of the stuff within the links...you might not be so lazy (maybe) :( :rolleyes:

[lover/young_peace]

No, you can tell by the way he looks at her that he wants it.
I'd do her. http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/icons/newicons/icon14.gif

[matthew]

I'd do her. http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/icons/newicons/icon14.gif

http://www.denistouret.net/constitalien/rice.jpg


she is not a bad looking woman, but no chance....never in a month of sundays.

[lover/young_peace]

http://www.denistouret.net/constitalien/rice.jpg


she is not a bad looking woman, but no chance....never in a month of sundays.

awww... c'mon, she's cute. :D

[Lucifer Sam]

may be better than banging on about the iraq war being all about oil...
The war is about oil, you dimwit. If you don't believe that, you're kidding yourself.

[FreeBird1969]

She looks like...a rabbit.

:eek:

[matthew]

The war is about oil, you dimwit. If you don't believe that, you're kidding yourself.No i am not a dimwit. What your saying (and others) is a commonly held belief, wich i don't believe to be true.


Originally Posted by matthew
http://www.denistouret.net/constitalien/rice.jpg


she is not a bad looking woman, but no chance....never in a month of sundays.

awww... c'mon, she's cute. http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

in the intrests of uk/American 'special relations' alright then

[lover/young_peace]

Haha... but you can call her "Condi" in bed. :D

Who wouldn't want that? :D

[Lucifer Sam]

No i am not a dimwit. What your saying (and others) is a commonly held belief, wich i don't believe to be true.
Like I said, you're kidding yourself. If you simply examine the facts, it's very easy to understand.

[matthew]

If she looks at me like this, i may not rise to the occasion though

http://www.arabcomint.com/condoleeza%20rice.jpg

[matthew]

Like I said, you're kidding yourself. If you simply examine the facts, it's very easy to understand.
You have gone on your journey of investigation and come to your conclusion and i have also .. I am not calling you a dimwit am i.

[lover/young_peace]

If she looks at me like this, i may not rise to the occasion though

http://www.arabcomint.com/condoleeza%20rice.jpg
Hahaha... those are her bedroom eyes. :D

[matthew]

Hahaha... those are her bedroom eyes. :D
well i will stay in the living room watching csi miami then .

[FreeBird1969]

If she looks at me like this, i may not rise to the occasion though

http://www.arabcomint.com/condoleeza%20rice.jpg
She doesn't have eyebrows. Hehe. :p

[Lucifer Sam]

You have gone on your journey of investigation and come to your conclusion and i have also .. I am not calling you a dimwit am i.
Actually, I only called you a dimwit because I thought that your comments on her letter were pretty poor.

However, I don't understand how you can research Iraq/oil and not understand how we're at the beginning stages of the Oil Wars.

[Bare Foot Bunny Hugg]

Love the hendrix line

[matthew]

Actually, I only called you a dimwit because I thought that your comments on her letter were pretty poor.

However, I don't understand how you can research Iraq/oil and not understand how we're at the beginning stages of the Oil Wars.Well if FreeBird1969 has a problem with what i have said, i will apologise immediately.

Well its people like yourself, that turned me away from the thought it is all about oil...to be honest .. i have read lots of peoples thoughts on this, and mostly i just don't agree...

[raven23]

People actually believe this war isn't about oil? Wow. Must be reading something I'm not, I guess.

About the letter. I'm just wondering, would they really put 60 year old on the front line. I think they'd reinstate the draft and get all the young men (AND women) killed before they put together a rag-tag army of vietnam vets in wheelchairs and walkers. So I would be more worried to be an American under 30, male or female.

[Lucifer Sam]

Well its people like yourself, that turned me away from the thought it is all about oil...to be honest .. i have read lots of peoples thoughts on this, and mostly i just don't agree...
Well there's your problem right there... you shouldn't be looking at opinions, you should be looking at facts. When you look at the facts, it's easy to make up your own mind on the subject. If you do so, I have a feeling that you will indeed see things my way.

[FreeBird1969]

People actually believe this war isn't about oil? Wow. Must be reading something I'm not, I guess.

About the letter. I'm just wondering, would they really put 60 year old on the front line. I think they'd reinstate the draft and get all the young men (AND women) killed before they put together a rag-tag army of vietnam vets in wheelchairs and walkers. So I would be more worried to be an American under 30, male or female.
They interviewed a woman who looked as if she was in her late fifties, and she faught in Vietnam. She had been called back for active duty. :(

I know, it doesn't make sense. But this whole war doesn't make sense...

[Lucifer Sam]

People actually believe this war isn't about oil? Wow. Must be reading something I'm not, I guess.
Heh, apparently...

About the letter. I'm just wondering, would they really put 60 year old on the front line. I think they'd reinstate the draft and get all the young men (AND women) killed before they put together a rag-tag army of vietnam vets in wheelchairs and walkers. So I would be more worried to be an American under 30, male or female.
Well, they wouldn't put a 60 year old on the front lines... I'm sure they would put someone that old behind a desk.

[matthew]

Well there's your problem right there... you shouldn't be looking at opinions, you should be looking at facts. When you look at the facts, it's easy to make up your own mind on the subject. If you do so, I have a feeling that you will indeed see things my way.
The opinions have given me 'facts' that hold up the arguement, i have then looked into the actual substance of what they are saying and come to other conclusions.. Not saying you , but most dissapear into wild conspiracy. Or its just the simple fact that people are against this current war (well any war) and oil is the easy answer.

Its been a long time , i don't think i will change your point of view..and i don't think you will change mine.


They interviewed a woman who looked as if she was in her late fifties, and she faught in Vietnam. She had been called back for active duty. :(


Are they not support staff, not active soldiers on combat duty ?.

[Lucifer Sam]

The opinions have given me 'facts' that hold up the arguement, i have then looked into the actual substance of what they are saying and come to other conclusions.. Not saying you , but most dissapear into wild conspiracy. Or its just the simple fact that people are against this current war (well any war) and oil is the easy answer.

Its been a long time , i don't think i will change your point of view..and i don't think you will change mine.
Even if you look past all of the politics, you should look into the real life crisis of oil depletion. It's coming, you know...

[FreeBird1969]

Are they not support staff, not active soldiers on combat duty ?.
They had her in full uniform with a gun and helmet and everything. It looked like she was going through boot camp again. I don't know, that could have been just a CBS publicity stunt..

Again, she only looked really old. She could have just...aged badly? :p

[matthew]

Heh, apparently...

.
yep their are a few of us around :) ..have you ever seen the episode of friends were Ross is trying to convince Phoebe about evolution ?? well i am Phoebe ;) .



Well, they wouldn't put a 60 year old on the front lines... I'm sure they would put someone that old behind a desk

At least we can agree on something

[FreeBird1969]

yep their are a few of us around :) ..have you ever seen the episode of friends were Ross is trying to convince Phoebe about evolution ?? well i am Phoebe ;) .


We're talking about politics. Don't use a Friends comparison EVER again.

Thank you. :)

[matthew]

Even if you look past all of the politics, you should look into the real life crisis of oil depletion. It's coming, you know...
yes and how quickly would that be 20-30 years..well what happens if it is more like 100. This falls flat then i reckon.

[raven23]

I'm not closed to the idea that it isnt about oil. I would love to hear what it might be about or why, when most of the current adminstration have oil industry backgrounds and have claimed they would even go nuclear to protect oil interests, that this war, being fought in a country with the second largest oil reserves, based on the premise they have WMO (lots of countries do) that they choose this tiny country and it's tiny army as the biggest threat.

[matthew]

We're talking about politics. Don't use a Friends comparison EVER again.

Thank you. :)Not a big fan then ?. its your thread so .. so okay no more 'Friends'

[Lucifer Sam]

yes and how quickly would that be 20-30 years..well what happens if it is more like 100. This falls flat then i reckon.
100 years? Are you kidding? Even the OIL COMPANIES are saying it will be long before that.

All I'm saying is look at the facts. There is a great deal of information out there. It would do everyone good to do a little research on the subject.

[FreeBird1969]

well what happens if it is more like 100.
That doesn't rule out the fact that it won't happen, man.

You can't just worry about the now. You have to think about the future of mankind to be able to solve this crisis we're in.

Not a big fan then ?. its yoor thread so .. so okay no more 'Friends'Thank you again. :) You are somewhat ignorant, but nice.

I'm 14, why am I saying that?

[Lucifer Sam]

That doesn't rule out the fact that it won't happen, man.

You can't just worry about the now. You have to think about the future of mankind to be able to solve this crisis we're in.
Ahh, don't worry, Krystin. We'll being to feel the effects of oil depletion this decade. You won't miss anything. ;) It's happening now.

[FreeBird1969]

Thanks...I feel so much better.

Suzy Creamcheese what's got into YOU?

Weee...

[Lucifer Sam]

Thanks...I feel so much better.
You can expect gas prices to spike within a matter of months. http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/icons/newicons/icon14.gif

[matthew]

100 years? Are you kidding? Even the OIL COMPANIES are saying it will be long before that.

All I'm saying is look at the facts. There is a great deal of information out there. It would do everyone good to do a little research on the subject.
i know their is a great deal of information out their...believe me i have read a lot ... if you want to go through my online travels via all the posts on this subject i have posted on the few sites i use, i would be happy to oblige you with the links.


That doesn't rule out the fact that it won't happen, man.

You can't just worry about the now. You have to think about the future of mankind to be able to solve this crisis we're in.


ofcourse not , i realise that .... the point is its just another pillar within this debate wich if taken away makes it all fall apart.. You have to believe certain things for it all to fit together .. i have my own blinkers on, none of you are alone on that.



Thank you again. :) You are somewhat ignorant, but nice.

I'm 14, why am I saying that?

Its alright your somewhat naive ..

I am 28 patronising younger people , why am i saying that ?.

[matthew]

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/ some info that turned me away from the 'all about oil' scenario.

[PhluffHead 4]

Thats cute, you like Bush don't you Matthew?

[soulrebel51]

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/ some info that turned me away from the 'all about oil' scenario.
Why not looking at reports from oil experts, like scientists and the like? They would be the ones to know...

Read the book "The Last Hours of Ancient Sunlite", the updated version... he's got quite an optimistic view of the no oil future, but that's the only thing I do not agree with him on.

[matthew]

Thats cute, you like Bush don't you Matthew?I am sorry for losing my sense of humour with you...http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/tongue.gif but you were not saying a lot so i did not realy want to spend a great deal of time , but still wanted to respond..it still was not that funny though http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif

Its not a question of likeing him , its a question of gathering information and seeing if i agree or it goes along with what i believe in my own mind to be true (and no i am not trying to delude myself). If i met him i may like him i may not..not realy the point though.


Why not looking at reports from oil experts, like scientists and the like? They would be the ones to know...

Read the book "The Last Hours of Ancient Sunlite", the updated version... he's got quite an optimistic view of the no oil future, but that's the only thing I do not agree with him on.
I am not disputing the fact that possiblythe supply of oil will run out eventualy ..i am disputing the fact that people in this thread and i would guess most people here on this forum would go along with the idea that this war is all about oil .. well i don't

I don't think the oil will suddenly stop and we will be left with nothing , is this what you are all saying ??

well i do read info'.

http://economics.about.com/cs/macroeconomics/a/run_out_of_oil.htm

http://www.alternet.org/story/18421

http://hubbert.mines.edu/news/Ivanhoe_97-1.pdf

http://hubbert.mines.edu/

i would go along with

If we go back to Economics 101, this effect is clearly visible. The continual reduction of the supply of oil is represented by a series of small shifts of the supply curve to the left and an associated move along the demand curve. Since gasoline is a normal good, Economics 101 tells us that we will have a series of price increases and a series of reductions in the total amount of gasoline consumed. Eventually the price will reach a point where gasoline will become a niche good purchased by very few consumers, while other consumers will have found alternatives to gas. When this happens there will still be plenty of oil in the ground, but consumers will have found alternatives that make more economic sense to them, so there will be little, if any, demand for gasoline.

In conclusion, if markets are allowed to function freely the supply of oil will never run out, in a physical sense, though it's quite likely that in the future gasoline will become a niche commodity. Changes in consumer patterns and the emergence of new technology driven by increases in the price of oil will prevent the oil supply from ever physically running out. While predicting doomsday scenarios may be a good way to get people to know your name, they are a very poor predictor of what is likely to happen in the future.

http://economics.about.com/cs/macroeconomics/a/run_out_of_oil.htm

I can't quite see how your all equating this with the current war, apart from maybe that the U.S and its war mongering cronies want their hands on iraqi oil ... because it is running out and we need to be in control of as many l supplies as possible.. Or the other one (i love this one) The Bush administration orchestrated this war to line their own pockets through Haliburton . Probably you all think it is a bit more complicated ..well please explain , i am listening (well i will read). I am being inquisitive not patronising i promise.

[raven23]

Ok, so it's about Saddamn was the worst evil dictator in the world, the biggest WMD threat and needed to be overthrown before he destroyed the world. It was because Bush cares what happen to the Iraqi people when he doesn't seem to give a fuck about the people in Africa?
And no, the oil's not going to run out. But there's still money to be made from it, well worth the cost of war in some people's eyes.

[Orsino2]

The oil is in the middle east.

[matthew]

The oil is in the middle east.Is that all i am getting , sorry but why bother... i tried to expalin (not fully) but in a fairly short post what i thought imho.


Oil in the middle east, yep i know their is oil in the middle east ..... and ?.



Ok, so it's about Saddamn was the worst evil dictator in the world, the biggest WMD threat and needed to be overthrown before he destroyed the world. It was because Bush cares what happen to the Iraqi people when he doesn't seem to give a fuck about the people in Africa?


Mr Bush has given more to Africa than most presidents , and is along with other nationstrying to tackle the HIV/aids epidemic their.. plus countless other things (to little time right now) . Just saying he does not give a give a fuck , is dismissing a great deal of information , just because you don't wish to give him (and possibly this particular goverment) any credit

http://www.usaid.gov/locations/sub-saharan_africa/

I probably will get grief but ...

http://www.un.int/usa/sres-iraq.htm

what the hell

[Lucifer Sam]

Where do you get this idea that oil won't run out? For fuck's sake, BP says it's going to run out! Is that not a good enough source for you?

And what are these "alternative fuel sources" that will make gasoline a "niche good?" I hope you're not referring to Hydrogen, because the idea of Hydrogen salvation is a joke.

Also, don't forget that oil isn't simply used for transportation. It is used in virtually all aspects of your life. There is no resource that can replace oil.

[matthew]

Where do you get this idea that oil won't run out? For fuck's sake, BP says it's going to run out! Is that not a good enough source for you?

And what are these "alternative fuel sources" that will make gasoline a "niche good?" I hope you're not referring to Hydrogen, because the idea of Hydrogen salvation is a joke.

Also, don't forget that oil isn't simply used for transportation. It is used in virtually all aspects of your life. There is no resource that can replace oil.
Were complicating this question i think..but i get the idea from many diffrent sources

I have also read BP predictions it depends what you want to believe
http://www.feasta.org/documents/wells/

http://www.abd.org.uk/../carbon_reserves.htm

its all speculation i admit.

[Lucifer Sam]

I think I see what you might not understand, matthew. You see, the real danger is not running out of oil, it's running out of cheap oil. The "last drop of oil" won't be when there is no more left in the ground, but rather when no one can afford it. The loss of cheap oil is what will bring about the decline of the American Empire.

In a sense, the people who say we will never run out of oil are correct. However, that is simply because you cannot get all of the oil out of the ground. It eventually takes more energy to pump the oil out of the ground than the oil will make. At the point, the oil field is dead.

[matthew]

I think I see what you might not understand, matthew. You see, the real danger is not running out of oil, it's running out of cheap oil. The "last drop of oil" won't be when there is no more left in the ground, but rather when no one can afford it. The loss of cheap oil is what will bring about the decline of the American Empire.

In a sense, the people who say we will never run out of oil are correct. However, that is simply because you cannot get all of the oil out of the ground. It eventually takes more energy to pump the oil out of the ground than the oil will make. At the point, the oil field is dead.I have no problem understanding about the oil 'problem' i don't think. ... just trying to relate it with the idea people have with it being conected to the current iraq war..this what i have a problem with ?. Well i don't have a problem with that either realy ..I have given 2 reasons (in earlier posts) 1.Profit:for Bush and his administration (especialy cheney) and 2.Controlling the oil: through the oil pipelines in the region.

See people just say its all about oil and their are a few scenarios that they go with, i am sure each person in this thread that says its about oil has a diffrent take on the matter and possibly if pushed for info all of them would contradict each other ? . It is very easy to say 'its all about oil' and then have nothing more to say as well ... so i apreciate you taking the time to explain your point of view , i realise it can be a bit repetitive to a point but if people only sing the first chorus of the song 'its all about oil' then the rest gets lost in ether (wich i think some people don't mind happening).


The loss of cheap oil is what will bring about the decline of the American Empire.

So Mr Bush is in your view waging this war to further and/or uphold the American empire ? So the other nations are willing participants in this little adventure right ?..or are they profiting from it or just to plain scared of American power (vast Neo conservative conspiracy)

forgive me, i am being sarcastic a little..but still asking a serious question (i hope)


However, that is simply because you cannot get all of the oil out of the ground. It eventually takes more energy to pump the oil out of the ground than the oil will make. At the point, the oil field is dead

How long can that go on for, how much oil is there ultimately?


We don't really know, though there are various models (e.g. 'creaming curve theory') that do give predictions.
The practical answer is 'How much do you want there to be?', which relates to 'How much are you prepared to pay for it?'.
You pay enough for it, and we could perhaps keep the oil R/P ratio at 40 for a couple of hundred years, but there is no point in expending money looking for it now because we can't be sure you will want it beyond about 10 years. However, the general pattern is that oil will be substituted by a cheaper energy source, and that masses will be left in the ground (like UK coal & tin) — the Stone Age didn't end because we ran out of stone, but because something better came along.
I think your first point sort of contradicts your second in a way .

But i think i can understand the idea that oil will last as long as we want it not the other way around .... does this make sense ?


If people go along with what you say , then yeah i can understand were they are comeing from.. but i don't share the same points so come to diffrent conclusions .....

[Lucifer Sam]

I have no problem understanding about the oil 'problem' i don't think. ... just trying to relate it with the idea people have with it being conected to the current iraq war..this what i have a problem with ?. Well i don't have a problem with that either realy ..I have given 2 reasons (in earlier posts) 1.Profit:for Bush and his administration (especialy cheney) and 2.Controlling the oil: through the oil pipelines in the region.I don't feel that the Iraq or Afghanistan wars are an attempt to line Cheney's pockets. There is no way. Also, I wouldn't necessarily say that the Bush Admin. is trying to control the oil in the Middle East (as of yet) but rather trying to manipulate the market.

My take on Afghanistan:

Before 9/11 (I can't remember the exact date) the Taliban destroyed Afghanistan's Opium crop in an attempt to declare economic warfare on the United States. You see, the US government rakes in a lot of money through drug trafficking, so Afghanistan's Opium crop (which is the world's leading producer of Herion) is rather important to the US economy. US troops invaded Afghanistan in 2003 just before planting season. Now, Afghanistan's Opium crop is reportedly 15 (or so) times larger than it was under the Taliban. Coincidence? Maybe... but I doubt it.

Also, Afghanistan sits perfectly in the Middle East as a nice foothold for the US. By installing a puppet government, the new leader will "ask" for permanent US bases in Afghanistan for "security" reasons.

My take on Iraq:

By invading Iraq and removing Saddam Hussein from power, the US government can bring all of Iraq's oil to market. This releases Saudi Arabia's (the nation with the world's largest proved sources of oil) grip on the oil market and restricts them from setting prices to their liking. The invasion also gives the US and the new puppet government (with "elections") control over the second largest oil reserves on the planet.

I don't think it's "just about oil," but it's certainly not about terrorism, WMD's, or liberation. And oil certainly will become something of value in the future...

See people just say its all about oil and their are a few scenarios that they go with, i am sure each person in this thread that says its about oil has a diffrent take on the matter and possibly if pushed for info all of them would contradict each other ? . It is very easy to say 'its all about oil' and then have nothing more to say as well ... so i apreciate you taking the time to explain your point of view , i realise it can be a bit repetitive to a point but if people only sing the first chorus of the song 'its all about oil' then the rest gets lost in ether (wich i think some people don't mind happening).I understand what you're saying. It's just like people around election time who were saying "I hate Kerry" or "I hate Bush" with no reasons to back up either statement. It can get old.

So Mr Bush is in your view waging this war to further and/or uphold the American empire ? So the other nations are willing participants in this little adventure right ?..or are they profiting from it or just to plain scared of American power (vast Neo conservative conspiracy)

forgive me, i am being sarcastic a little..but still asking a serious question (i hope)I'm sure that in the beginning stages of the depletion, Britain, the US, and Israel will share in their control in the Middle Eastern oil. The other members of the "grand coalition" I'm sure have been/will be paid off in some way.

But i think i can understand the idea that oil will last as long as we want it not the other way around .... does this make sense ?No, oil will not last as long as we want it to. How can a finite resource last forever? See, your conclusion seems to be highly reliant on the idea that alternative fuel sources will become widespread before the peak. I really don't see this happening. After all, US oil supplies peaked in 1971, and we still haven't done much of anything about it. Plus, if we want to have the slightest chance of easing the blow that depletion will deal us, we need to start working on alternatives and renewables NOW.

If people go along with what you say , then yeah i can understand were they are comeing from.. but i don't share the same points so come to diffrent conclusions .....I understand when you say that by raising the price of oil we can therefore get more out of the ground. Sadly, this simply won't do much. This can, and will, slow the process a bit, but the really important piece to this puzzle is that this "new oil" will not be cheap oil. When oil is no longer cheap, ALL oil-related products will rise in price. Ecomonic and agricultural collapse are then inevitable.

[matthew]

I don't feel that the Iraq or Afghanistan wars are an attempt to line Cheney's pockets. There is no way. Also, I wouldn't necessarily say that the Bush Admin. is trying to control the oil in the Middle East (as of yet) but rather trying to manipulate the market.
Seems a bloody hard way to manipulate the market.. what about the other nations involved in the war ?. I personaly have more faith in people than to think that this is a valid reason . The oil prices goes up and down anyway all the time , relating the changes to particular points in the timeline of this war is something if you wanted you could do.. but it is possible to make most things fit if you try hard enough. .. The American goverment would have to have full control of when how the war will develop and end .... they can't and don't . Far to conspiritorial for me.. reality does not work that way.


My take on Afghanistan:

Before 9/11 (I can't remember the exact date) the Taliban destroyed Afghanistan's Opium crop in an attempt to declare economic warfare on the United States. You see, the US government rakes in a lot of money through drug trafficking, so Afghanistan's Opium crop (which is the world's leading producer of Herion) is rather important to the US economy. US troops invaded Afghanistan in 2003 just before planting season. Now, Afghanistan's Opium crop is reportedly 15 (or so) times larger than it was under the Taliban. Coincidence? Maybe... but I doubt it.

MMM you could go into the 'war on drugs' and christ knows what else with that thought ..I have not actualy heard this one to be honest , so maybe i need a bit more source material if you don't mind ?.



Also, Afghanistan sits perfectly in the Middle East as a nice foothold for the US. By installing a puppet government, the new leader will "ask" for permanent US bases in Afghanistan for "security" reasons.
Puppet goverments , i hate this idea , if it happens i will say fair enough ... but again it deletes all the other nations out its all very good till the the UK,Australia etc etc get into the equation ... permanent bases mmm possibly but so their are basess all over the world ?.

My take on Iraq:

By invading Iraq and removing Saddam Hussein from power, the US government can bring all of Iraq's oil to market. This releases Saudi Arabia's (the nation with the world's largest proved sources of oil) grip on the oil market and restricts them from setting prices to their liking. The invasion also gives the US and the new puppet government (with "elections") control over the second largest oil reserves on the planet.

Ye of little faith , the elections are going to be the best thing thats has happened for the iraqi people in a very long time ...dismissing the positive nature of them is unfair.



I don't think it's "just about oil," but it's certainly not about terrorism, WMD's, or liberation. And oil certainly will become something of value in the future...
Well you have placed oil at the core of all of your thinking so far ?.. of course oil from the region will become of value in the future ... no suprises their , the iraqi people and iraqi owned business with world wide organisations will haggle (well are haggling) over it ... this is what happens anyway .



I'm sure that in the beginning stages of the depletion, Britain, the US, and Israel will share in their control in the Middle Eastern oil. The other members of the "grand coalition" I'm sure have been/will be paid off in some way.
way way into the future possibly a hundred years from now...have you not taken on board what i have posted..this is why the 15-20-30 year 'last drop of oil crap works for your arguement ...anything longer, it is immposible to predict who will be the players and that the current politics has a goal ?.


No, oil will not last as long as we want it to. How can a finite resource last forever? See, your conclusion seems to be highly reliant on the idea that alternative fuel sources will become widespread before the peak. I really don't see this happening. After all, US oil supplies peaked in 1971, and we still haven't done much of anything about it. Plus, if we want to have the slightest chance of easing the blow that depletion will deal us, we need to start working on alternatives and renewables NOW.Your realy not reading what i am posting very much sorry... your just saying what you have in your head whatever i am saying that does not go along with it..factor a few of the other speculations of the oil 'problem' and see if your critique holds up as well as it appears now ?


I understand when you say that by raising the price of oil we can therefore get more out of the ground. Sadly, this simply won't do much. This can, and will, slow the process a bit, but the really important piece to this puzzle is that this "new oil" will not be cheap oil. When oil is no longer cheap, ALL oil-related products will rise in price. Ecomonic and agricultural collapse are then inevitable.

However, the general pattern is that oil will be substituted by a cheaper energy source, and that masses will be left in the ground (like UK coal & tin) — the Stone Age didn't end because we ran out of stone, but because something better came along.thanks for your time.. i hope you continue its been intresting

[FreeBird1969]

I don't feel that the Iraq or Afghanistan wars are an attempt to line Cheney's pockets. There is no way. Also, I wouldn't necessarily say that the Bush Admin. is trying to control the oil in the Middle East (as of yet) but rather trying to manipulate the market.

My take on Afghanistan:

Before 9/11 (I can't remember the exact date) the Taliban destroyed Afghanistan's Opium crop in an attempt to declare economic warfare on the United States. You see, the US government rakes in a lot of money through drug trafficking, so Afghanistan's Opium crop (which is the world's leading producer of Herion) is rather important to the US economy. US troops invaded Afghanistan in 2003 just before planting season. Now, Afghanistan's Opium crop is reportedly 15 (or so) times larger than it was under the Taliban. Coincidence? Maybe... but I doubt it.

Also, Afghanistan sits perfectly in the Middle East as a nice foothold for the US. By installing a puppet government, the new leader will "ask" for permanent US bases in Afghanistan for "security" reasons.

My take on Iraq:

By invading Iraq and removing Saddam Hussein from power, the US government can bring all of Iraq's oil to market. This releases Saudi Arabia's (the nation with the world's largest proved sources of oil) grip on the oil market and restricts them from setting prices to their liking. The invasion also gives the US and the new puppet government (with "elections") control over the second largest oil reserves on the planet.

I don't think it's "just about oil," but it's certainly not about terrorism, WMD's, or liberation. And oil certainly will become something of value in the future...

I understand what you're saying. It's just like people around election time who were saying "I hate Kerry" or "I hate Bush" with no reasons to back up either statement. It can get old.

I'm sure that in the beginning stages of the depletion, Britain, the US, and Israel will share in their control in the Middle Eastern oil. The other members of the "grand coalition" I'm sure have been/will be paid off in some way.

No, oil will not last as long as we want it to. How can a finite resource last forever? See, your conclusion seems to be highly reliant on the idea that alternative fuel sources will become widespread before the peak. I really don't see this happening. After all, US oil supplies peaked in 1971, and we still haven't done much of anything about it. Plus, if we want to have the slightest chance of easing the blow that depletion will deal us, we need to start working on alternatives and renewables NOW.

I understand when you say that by raising the price of oil we can therefore get more out of the ground. Sadly, this simply won't do much. This can, and will, slow the process a bit, but the really important piece to this puzzle is that this "new oil" will not be cheap oil. When oil is no longer cheap, ALL oil-related products will rise in price. Ecomonic and agricultural collapse are then inevitable.
It's so creepy how smart you are. :eek: And there wasn't a typo in that entire post. :eek:

[Lucifer Sam]

The oil prices goes up and down anyway all the time , relating the changes to particular points in the timeline of this war is something if you wanted you could do.. but it is possible to make most things fit if you try hard enough. .. The American goverment would have to have full control of when how the war will develop and end .... they can't and don't . Far to conspiritorial for me.. reality does not work that way.The reasons for oil prices going up and down now are simply political. Once oil peaks (which TONS of studies have shown will be VERY soon), the price climbs will not be political... they will be environmental and permanent.

MMM you could go into the 'war on drugs' and christ knows what else with that thought ..I have not actualy heard this one to be honest , maybe i need a bit more source material if you don't mind ?.Try www.fromthewilderness.com (http://www.fromthewilderness.com/).

Michael Ruppert seems to be the lead man exposing the drug trade and how it relates to world events, including 9/11.

Now, before you try to say that Michael Ruppert is not a reliable source, I just want you to know that even the BBC has used his information and his website for research.

Puppet goverments , i hate this idea , if it happens i will say fair enough ... but again it deletes all the other nations out its all very good till the the UK,Australia etc etc get into the equationHow so? Why would the UK oppose a puppet government in Afghanistan?

Ye of little faith , the elections are going to be the best thing thats has happened for the iraqi people in a very long time ...dismissing the positive nature of them is unfair.Yeah, the elections will be amazing... and Cheney and Rumsfeld will be there to make sure that happens. It's a puppet government.

Well you have placed oil at the core of all of your thinking so far ?.. Yes, of course. Oil depletion is by far the most dangerous thing facing the world today. Forget global warming and such... oil is much worse.

way way into the future possibly a hundred years from now...have you not taken on board what i have posted..this is why the 15-20-30 year 'last drop of oil crap works for your arguement ...anything longer, it is immposible to predict who will be the players and that the current politics has a goal ?.A hundred years from now? Are you kidding? Even BP says that there are approximately 40 years of oil left... and their "prediction" has been proven wrong in many instances. Oil WILL NOT be around for 100 years... wake up. Peak Oil is here. Try looking around for a little more information. Even news sources like the BBC and CNN have reported on the COMING oil crisis.

Your realy not reading what i am posting very much sorry... your just saying what you have in your head whatever i am saying that does not go along with it..factor a few of the other speculations of the oil 'problem' and see if your critique holds up as well as it appears now ?No, you're not reading what I'm saying. What are these magical resources that are going to spring up once oil is no longer an option? Your entire argument about there not being a coming oil crisis is based on another resource taking over? What resource is that giong to be? Hydrogen? No, not a viable option? Coal? Sure, it can last for a while... but it will also destroy the environment. Plus, coal too is a finite resource which will also run our eventually. Solar and wind power? Not easy to harness and not as effective as oil.

Look, do some more research. There IS a coming oil crisis... and it's won't be like the 1970's shocks. This time, it's for real.

[Lucifer Sam]

It's so creepy how smart you are. :eek:
(o_O) Heh, if you say so.

And there wasn't a typo in that entire post. :eek:
Hmm... lucky me. :)

[lover/young_peace]

It's so creepy how smart you are. :eek: And there wasn't a typo in that entire post. :eek:
haha... oh my god you are cute. :D

[matthew]

The reasons for oil prices going up and down now are simply political. Once oil peaks (which TONS of studies have shown will be VERY soon), the price climbs will not be political... they will be environmental and permanent.

Try www.fromthewilderness.com (http://www.fromthewilderness.com/).
what about the $10 dollars artificially placed on the price of oil to keep the market afloat..what about the weather/natural disasters what about higher demand.. yeah politics is a factor but not as big as you are making out..



Michael Ruppert seems to be the lead man exposing the drug trade and how it relates to world events, including 9/11.

Now, before you try to say that Michael Ruppert is not a reliable source, I just want you to know that even the BBC has used his information and his website for research.
I have no great love for the BBC and their news coverage..yeah they are quite good ..but still pander to popular opinions or just put every opinion out their on their site.. i could quite easy find something put out by the BBC that contradicts what Mr Ruppert says... would you take this as reputably as you take information that supports what you are saying ??.




Yeah, the elections will be amazing... and Cheney and Rumsfeld will be there to make sure that happens. It's a puppet government.
Take off your americentric glasses off for a few minutes ...




A hundred years from now? Are you kidding? Even BP says that there are approximately 40 years of oil left... and their "prediction" has been proven wrong in many instances. Oil WILL NOT be around for 100 years... wake up. Peak Oil is here. Try looking around for a little more information. Even news sources like the BBC and CNN have reported on the COMING oil crisis.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3623139.stm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/documentaries/storyville/oil3.shtml

We will just as humans demand that other means are used , oil i think could be ressurected again when/if in 3 generations time people stop panicking so much about the enviroment and a less hostile lobby admits that even though the enviroment is important we should take it from the top of the agenda..


No, you're not reading what I'm saying. What are these magical resources that are going to spring up once oil is no longer an option? Your entire argument about there not being a coming oil crisis is based on another resource taking over? What resource is that giong to be? Hydrogen? No, not a viable option? Coal? Sure, it can last for a while... but it will also destroy the environment. Plus, coal too is a finite resource which will also run our eventually. Solar and wind power? Not easy to harness and not as effective as oil.See you should be more positive about looking for alternatives and not thinking the end of the world will occur just because people don't want to use oil anymore..IMHO people are predicting the end of oil, just so that other resources and other means can be used away from oil..this is a good thing ... so even though i am saying oil will last for a lot longer than 30 years , the benefits of going along with the notion that its all going to dry up maybe a better thing to do..


Look, do some more research. There IS a coming oil crisis... and it's won't be like the 1970's shocks. This time, it's for real.
It might appear that i am talking off the top of my head , but i have researched this over the years, i asssure you.

Surely the type of curve balls i am throwing at your arguement are not new too you..have you never re evaluated what you think to be true..i have a few times.. probably why i may seem a bit ridiculous ;)

<H2>Peak of Oil Production and Significance

It is not when the last drop of oil is pumped, but rather the peak of production (maximum daily amount) after which there is an irreversible decline in oil production, which is important. Then all social and economic programs based on oil income will have to be curtailed. Countries, such as Kuwait, which have been investing some of their oil income abroad may be able to sustain their social programs to a modest degree, but if the growth rate of population continues, it is very doubtful that the income on a per capita basis can equal the income now received from oil. Most countries now are consuming their oil income as it comes in.

The peak of world oil production, by the most recent studies is now projected to occur sometime between 2003 (Campbell, 1998) and 2020 (Edwards, 1997). Of special interest is that in March, 1998, the International Energy Agency, for the first time forecast a possible date of the peak of world oil production stating: "... a peaking of conventional oil production could occur between years 2010 and 2020" (International Energy Agency, 1998). In more detail, a study has just been completed projecting the peak of oil production in 42 countries (Duncan & Youngquist, 1998). The largely oil-dependent countries and their estimated peak years are Kuwait, 2018; Oman, 2002; Syria, 1999; United Arab Emirates, 2017; Yemen, 2002; Saudi Arabia, 2011; Venezuela, 2005. Qatar, Bahrain, Iran, Libya, and Brunei have already passed their peaks. Qatar's oil decline is cushioned by huge gas deposits now being developed. Both Bahrain and Iran have seen increasing unrest as the decline in oil income has undermined the standard of living. Iran passed its peak of oil production in 1973. With the population now increasing much beyond what the declining oil revenues can support, Iran will be the first oil-rich Gulf nation that within 10 years will be poorer than it was twenty years ago. Population growth dilutes the available oil wealth base.

Iraq's peak of production is expected in 2011, but may be delayed further by the current U.S. oil embargo sanctions. However, note how the present lack of oil income is hurting the citizens of Iraq, becoming desperate for basics of life, including food and medicines. Relief shipments are being sent in. But, when the time arrives that Iraq will have little or no oil to sell, how will Iraq support its people? Oil has been 99 percent of Iraq's source of foreign exchange, and they are not even now self-sufficient in food supplies. Will the rest of the world indefinitely make up the difference when Iraq has no more oil to sell for food? Or, importantly, will the traditionally food exporting nations at that time even have surplus grain to sell?

The effect of the depletion of world oil and its close associate, natural gas, on overall world food production cannot be ignored.

</H2>
http://dieoff.org/page171.htm


See i have just read this and you could possibly argue iraq was attacked for oil not so that America could have it but so the iraqi people could have it too sell and support themselves and more progressive programs ??


the benefits of going along with the notion that its all going to dry up maybe a better thing to do..
see now i am not so sure..


I am going to have to think about all this ... even though your being a bit stubborn , its been a long time since i have updated my thinking so if nothing else ...i am going to have a few long ours reading ?... i am not saying your right ..but you have made me look at a few things again..my own paradigm on this, is changing a little ... still edging more towards what i already think though

[FreeBird1969]

haha... oh my god you are cute. :D
Ditto. :D

[matthew]

Ditto. :D
GET A ROOM YOU PAIR .... :p