God and OUR children

[Razorofoccam]

Many say god made us...

But what happens when WE build conscious beings.?
with no more than half a brain and 8fingers&2thumbs

Does 'god' become 'grangod'?

For just 100 years after we built reliable steam/train engines.
We built fission/fusion warheads.

Now we dream of part man, part machine mods.
And soon after..biological immortallity.
All, well with the limmits of the possible.

Sounds like Speculative Fiction?
Occam thinks we will create the first self aware machine in 20 to 30 years...
So many alive now will experience it.
[maybe :) No Fate]

And IT may well ask 'what is this god you speak of'?

What will you say?

Occam

[Ash_Freakstreet]

In the long run, The Creation is often more intelligent its Creator.

The IQ of evolution was about 0

[thumontico]

When AI present ultimate rationality, they will make the same argument, occam: "God cannot be understood rationally, and my immoratlity is secured"

[soulrebel51]

Sounds like Speculative Fiction?
Occam thinks we will create the first self aware machine in 20 to 30 years...
So many alive now will experience it.
In 20 to 30 years there won't be enough natural resources to produce such beings.

[thumontico]

The USA will start being conservationist when our comodities start to deminish.

[Disarm]

I'm thinking this machine will either be built in the USA, in which case it will be christianly self aware, or china, in which case I cannot understand it hehe. Would it have a personality? I'm not sure.. if we gave a holistic explanation of g-d (g-d is everything and everywhere etc) then perhaps it would just equate g-d with nature or something.

[Hikaru Zero]

Well personally I don't have as much faith in human ingenuity as Occam here does ... 20-30 years ... meh.

The problem I see with that is ... so far, we don't have anything NEAR artificial intelligence. Yes, we have Chess programs that can beat grandmasters, we have robots who can walk up steps, robots who can draw nice pictures, and even robots that collect information about the surrounding environment, then discard that information and drive into walls. (Okay, I admit, I ripped that last one off of bash.org)

However ...

That Chess program is just a brute forcing program ... it just analyzes all possible moves and then tries to analyze the moves it can make in the future. If any of you have played the game Go (or Igo in Japan), using a 19x19 board (rather than the 8x8 in Chess; that's a HUGE difference), where stones can be placed ANYWHERE on the board, even seemingly at random, and still be good moves ... and where quite literally, multiple battles are fought at the same time.

And yet, I personally can beat a good Go AI program at its highest setting, and I barely know how to play the game (I've played ... 4 games versus humans, and I only won a single one, against another person of my skill level, which is pathetically low).

And I could go on, but that's beating a dead horse.

I think that, maybe by the end of this century, we may have a very primitive AI, and that it will be a great number of years later before that primitive AI evolves into something closer to an actual self-aware, thinking being. The problem, of course, lies in the fact that ... we dont' know anything about our OWN minds ... we don't know if morality is learned or "built-in", if intelligence is affected by our environment, and we don't know the result of that common "nature versus nurture" argument.

When we don't understand our own minds, how can we attempt to create a self-aware, thinking being, when we don't even know how or why we are self-aware or thinking.

I fear that basic morality will have to be built into the robot to begin with, and that, to me, doesn't necessarily constitute "intelligence." Conversely, if we make it so that basic morality is learned (if that's even possible!), then we will likely have many problems.

Issac Asimov's 3 Laws of Robotics are a good place to start, I believe, as far as basic robot morality goes. But I think we have a long way to go in understanding ourselves before we will be able to play the role of G-d.

i,robot was a really good movie, you should all watch it. Despite the fact that it's a few hundred years too early (in my opinion, haha), it was very interesting about this subject.

[thumontico]

I assume you are a scientist in this field...?

[Shockw4ve]

I assume you are a scientist in this field...?
Does everyone HAVE to be a scientist or expert to post in these forums? I don't think so. It always seems to come back to that though. This isn't the science forum. This is the philosophy forum. Asking questions is part of what philosophy is all about. Don't think that I'm personally attacking you. It's just that it get's rather old when everyone acts like you have to have a PHD in a particular area in order to "win" a debate, or begin to speculate about something. I haven't been posting here very long, but I'm sure that I'm not alone in my feelings.

[Occam]

When AI present ultimate rationality, they will make the same argument, occam: "God cannot be understood rationally, and my immoratlity is secured"
Thumontico

Why would any rational being want immortallity?

And occam opinions the Thinking Mind CAN understand. [god]
For your god is a thinking mind..no?
Does it understand itself? Yes...omnipotent...

HoHo

Occam

[Occam]

In 20 to 30 years there won't be enough natural resources to produce such beings.
Soulrebel51

In ten years we could run this planet on radiant solar energy..Resources are a fob for the wealthy...
PROFIT is the reason we still burn compressed trees to power supercomputers.
A dichotomy of ironic depth.

There are enough natural resources floating about out beyond your vision...! [the top of the atmosphere]
To let us build anything we want for a billion years.
And we CAN go 'get it'. Anytime we want....

Anytime

[soulrebel51]

In ten years we could run this planet on radiant solar energy..Resources are a fob for the wealthy...
With the way things are looking now, I am not so optimistic about this.

Converting to solar power (or anything that is not oil) would cost energy companies more money than you could ever imagine. And it is common sense that rich, powerful people to not like to lose money and power, no matter what the consequences may be.
There are enough natural resources floating about out beyond your vision...! [the top of the atmosphere]
These would be...?

[Occam]

With the way things are looking now, I am not so optimistic about this.

Converting to solar power (or anything that is not oil) would cost energy companies more money than you could ever imagine. And it is common sense that rich, powerful people to not like to lose money and power, no matter what the consequences may be.

These would be...?
Soulrebel 51

These would be....?

Well enough solar detrius to power our factories and powerplants for a billion years..
There are chunks of pure water ice in our systen that are sizable percentages of the total water on earth...All together..they dwarf our wee planet for H2o
More heavy meatels than we could use just sail past in the sky each time you look at it...
METHOD sees it. Method tells power of it....be assured

TEN YEARS OF HUMAN DEFENCE SPENDING [1.5trillion US per annum]
TURNED TO SPACE.
WOULD LEAVE ALL EARTHLY PLANETARY MINES AND POWER STATIONS UNPROFITABLE..

the ptb know this.....but fear the side effects.

Occam

[thumontico]

I was refering to the theist arguement.

[Disarm]

I would find some way to convert things coming in through the atmosphere into energy, because they won't go away anytime soon. I have no idea how, but converting gamma rays or carbon 14 into energy would be grand. If I had any idea how to do this, I would either be killed by the power companies, or rich. Ah well, ya win some, ya lose some.

In reference to the idea about when smart robots think for themselves will come about, just remember all those lovely recordings of what people said life today would be like, living on the moon was one I think...

[Occam]

I would find some way to convert things coming in through the atmosphere into energy, because they won't go away anytime soon. I have no idea how, but converting gamma rays or carbon 14 into energy would be grand. If I had any idea how to do this, I would either be killed by the power companies, or rich. Ah well, ya win some, ya lose some.

In reference to the idea about when smart robots think for themselves will come about, just remember all those lovely recordings of what people said life today would be like, living on the moon was one I think...
Disarm

Quite True
We dont live in orbit or on the moon...
Why?....someone decided it was not profitable....or expedient
NOT that we cannot do it.

Visionaries rarely take political/ecconomic factors into consideration.

But truley MI may not happen for a hundred years if that...
Occam speculated what we COULD do...
Not what we will.

We COULD all be travelling in flying cars...right now...but we do not because of POLITICAL considerations....

Occam

[Hikaru Zero]

Disarm

Quite True
We dont live in orbit or on the moon...
Why?....someone decided it was not profitable....or expedient
NOT that we cannot do it.

Visionaries rarely take political/ecconomic factors into consideration.

But truley MI may not happen for a hundred years if that...
Occam speculated what we COULD do...
Not what we will.

We COULD all be travelling in flying cars...right now...but we do not because of POLITICAL considerations....

Occam

Indeed.

Perhaps if humans focused entirely around the creation of A.I., then the first self-aware being might be created within 30 years.

But Hikaru suggests it will take at least 10 times as long, if not longer.

[atropine]

a few lil things

1. energy, if im correct, can only be converted into energy. i believe theres no known way to take something, such as carbon14, and create energy. energy is conserved; never used, never created, only converted.

occam, i think youre political/economic factor idea definately has some merit, but i think many other things have effected the mentioned ideas, ie living on the moon and flying cars. many scientists around the world would be trying to develope a practical flying car, i would believe.

and as for AI.. well thats a tricky one.

[thumontico]

How about zero point energy.

[Occam]

Indeed.

Perhaps if humans focused entirely around the creation of A.I., then the first self-aware being might be created within 30 years.

But Hikaru suggests it will take at least 10 times as long, if not longer.
Hikaru

Quite true...If humanity wished it..we could do it...
But other things are more important for us at this time...
Like making sure we dont choke on our own excreta.

Occam

[Occam]

a few lil things

1. energy, if im correct, can only be converted into energy. i believe theres no known way to take something, such as carbon14, and create energy. energy is conserved; never used, never created, only converted.

occam, i think youre political/economic factor idea definately has some merit, but i think many other things have effected the mentioned ideas, ie living on the moon and flying cars. many scientists around the world would be trying to develope a practical flying car, i would believe.

and as for AI.. well thats a tricky one.
Atropine

http://www.moller.com/skycar/m400/

Occam

[Mr MiGu]

i,robot was a really good movie, you should all watch it. Despite the fact that it's a few hundred years too early (in my opinion, haha), it was very interesting about this subject.I, robot was not a very good movie. Its funny that you bring it up though, because I was just about to bring up the book, which was excellent. In one of the stories in it, some men are trying to setup an an AI robot on a spacestation, to monitor the earth, but they were having troubles with it because it would not listen to them. It felt that since the Earth was its purpose, the Earth was its god and creator. The humans tried to convince it that they were its creator, but it wouldnt listen, as its reasoning was that god had given them that idea, that they created robots, so they could properly perform their duties, which basically consisted of maintaining the robots.

my point being, would it matter what we told robots what god is? Most likely, since they have their own abilities of thought, reason and logic, they would create their own versions of 'truth', and come up with their own reasons on why we hold the 'truths' that we do.

[thumontico]

Necessity is the mother of invention, as it goes, Europe having far less capability compared the US in the area of ENERGY, will be the pioneers in revolutionary energy production.

[Occam]

How about zero point energy.
Thumontico

Zero point energy. First we have to be able to access it....
We dont even know it it actually exists..or what it is.
We only theorise it as a possible cause to a percieved effect.

Occam

[thumontico]

Yeah, I know. I am not familiar with solar energy, so forgive me for my ignorance, however, are you sure that it is as efficient and productive as you claim?

[Disarm]

a few lil things

1. energy, if im correct, can only be converted into energy. i believe theres no known way to take something, such as carbon14, and create energy. energy is conserved; never used, never created, only converted.
pfft. This point will just make me richer. Breaking the 'rules' of physics will just mean noone will believe me until I do it, and get rich cause noone stole the idea. And carbon 14 comes into the atmosphere, it would take energy to do that! And and and.....so there. You must have a stinky girlfriend.

[Occam]

pfft. This point will just make me richer. Breaking the 'rules' of physics will just mean noone will believe me until I do it, and get rich cause noone stole the idea. And carbon 14 comes into the atmosphere, it would take energy to do that! And and and.....so there. You must have a stinky girlfriend. Disarm

Occam waits for you to do it...
Hopefully you will..
And occam had a stinky girlfriend once...she was the best sex he ever had.
She was ANIMAL

Occam

PS
Occam thinks you MAY find a loophole...
We in our ignorant arrogance.
Think we know the physics of reality. This is false.
Our facts. Are what we call that which generates no contradiction.

Thus scientific fact is that which works every time,,so far...
In a reality of time/motion [one and the same]
We may come across a place where the laws of HUMAN physics do not apply.
That place may be a 3space location...
Or in the human mind

For we know little of either...

[BlackGuardXIII]

Disarm

Occam waits for you to do it...
Hopefully you will..
And occam had a stinky girlfriend once...she was the best sex he ever had.
She was ANIMAL

Occam

PS
Occam thinks you MAY find a loophole...
We in our ignorant arrogance.
Think we know the physics of reality. This is false.
Our facts. Are what we call that which generates no contradiction.

Thus scientific fact is that which works every time,,so far...
In a reality of time/motion [one and the same]
We may come across a place where the laws of HUMAN physics do not apply.
That place may be a 3space location...
Or in the human mind

For we know little of either...
I hear ya Occam, and think you are bang on. Facts are in fact not. They are theories, illusions, propaganda, and lies, for the most part.
Ignorant arrogance. Perfect description, it is an epidemic.
I know so little of what life, reality, our reason for existence, etc. are. I feel that there is a reason, it is not all just a meaningless exercise in growing complex carbon crystals. I believe there is a reason, though have no clue what it is, I have a strong faith in Spirit, and also, am clueless what that means.
I have been utterly convinced, by their occurences, though, that there have been, here, in my life, many events that totally defy the 'laws' of physics.
If others have not had these kinds of things happen, I am not surprised that they doubt their validity, I very likely would too. I actually did ignore them for years myself.

[BlackGuardXIII]

There is stinky and there is STINKY. I love the scents of a womans body, as long as it is not due to weeks of not washing at all. My mates underarms after a days work are an aromatic turn on. And the taste and smell of her, uh......nether regions, hint hint, wink wink, are nectar of the Goddess.
That said, I once was kissing a girl that I refused to undo her belt, as the odor coming through the denim was already more than I could bear.

[BlackGuardXIII]

Atropine

http://www.moller.com/skycar/m400/

Occam
I have the Popular Science mag from well over a decade ago that previewed the m400, and have kept up on its status. I am very p'd off that the gov't. has put so many 'suggested' features, such as making the operation of it automatic. This is alledgedly to make it safer, but I doubt that is the actual reason. I was so disappointed by that possibility. Why not make planes, boats, and cars that way then? What a drag that would be.
It is a tad beyond my budget to buy the m400 this month, but I think it is cool.

[geckopelli]

". energy, if im correct, can only be converted into energy. i believe theres no known way to take something, such as carbon14, and create energy. energy is conserved; never used, never created, only converted."

This is incorrect. Far too simplistic.

E=MC2. Nuclear fission as well as fusion convert matter into energy. These processes occur naturally in stellar bodies, as well as through radio-active decay.

Conservation of energy indeed states that energy can be "used up", IF by "used up" you mean "becomes unavalible for further work". This is the essence of Entropy.

[BlackGuardXIII]

". energy, if im correct, can only be converted into energy. i believe theres no known way to take something, such as carbon14, and create energy. energy is conserved; never used, never created, only converted."

This is incorrect. Far too simplistic.

E=MC2. Nuclear fission as well as fusion convert matter into energy. These processes occur naturally in stellar bodies, as well as through radio-active decay.

Conservation of energy indeed states that energy can be "used up", IF by "used up" you mean "becomes unavalible for further work". This is the essence of Entropy.
The theories I tend to lean towards are the ones that do not differentiate between them. Matter IS energy. The differences are from the resonance, speed, and effects of outside forces, such as gravity.
Dewey Larson's proposal that Gravity, Magnetism, and Electricity are the first, second and third phase of the same force sounds plausible to me too.
And Cathie (I think), wrote that matter is detuned light, which sounds good to me too.

[geckopelli]

I do not doubt in the least that E does equal MC2.

The difference between "matter" and energy is a quantum difference, no more.

[BlackGuardXIII]

I do not doubt in the least that E does equal MC2.

The difference between "matter" and energy is a quantum difference, no more.
Yeah, ol' Einstein's better half was no slouch, huh?
I do not appreciate the critics who say that Einstein was wrong and Darwin was wrong. They were not, the newer generations required their enlightening master strokes of scientific hypothesizing to move forward. How they can then slam their sources of knowledge is beyond me. They may have been inaccurate, but they were closer to the bulls eye than anyone else in their day, in my view.
I love quoting Einstein, as he made some spiritual comments I find comforting and sound true to me.
He called his wife a 'collaborator' on E=MC squared's creation. Then gave her the entire sum of money the Nobel prize awarded him for it. This is, in my view, very telling. Collaborator is not the same as assistant, or contributor, or helper. It means something akin to 'partner', or 'equal developer'.

Cool, huh?

[geckopelli]

Seems to me, if god exist, Einstien was one of his greatest gifts to mankind.

As for Darwin- his theories were clearly products of the evolution of human understanding.
-----------
BlackGuardVIII- I suspect you are among the few to taste the flavor of comprehension, brother.

And so, for your entertainment, perplexion, and indignation, a quote from a story that may yet be finished:

The Dust Mote.

The Professor, “What the hell-!?! “

Dust Mote, “What is quite clear. Hell, however is far from evident.”

The Professor, perplexed, “Who? Where? What-?”

“Who is you. Where is here, and as for what, you have come here quite plainly.”

The Professor, “Where is here? Who- no, What are you?”

“My dear fellow, since you are unclear about your what’s, it would seem only natural that you have misplaced your who’s and where’s. For my part, I shall enlighten you. Here is not there, and who, if not you, is me. As for what, about which what would you be wondering, if not the what, indeed, that you are here?”

The Professor, “What are you, my peculiar apparition?”

“I am what I am.”

The Professor, “And what would that be?”

“I am me. What, indeed, are you, my demanding questionnaire?
I have given you all the answers that are here, perhaps you had better try to find your answers there.”

“This can’t be real-“, the Professor doubts.

“Reality is as Reality does,” confirms the Dust Mote, “but, upon reconsideration, if there becomes here, here must become there, and the limits of here are therefore expressible as the distance to there”.

“And what might that expression be, my logical hallucination?”

"It's as small as the Universe is, and it's as large as the Universe is", explains the Dust Mote.

"But then what is the difference between here and there my good, ah- Who and what are you?" inquires the Professor.

"The same as before, of course," elucidates the Dust Mote.
"Since beginnings begin endings and endings end beginnings, than naturally the end of the ending is the beginning of the beginning."
SHADE FALLS
“Over there shall soon be here, and I have given you all of my answers. So look over there”. A VIOLENT BREEZE BLOWS THE DUST MOTE AWAY.

“Wait!-“

“Who is you! Where is here! You’ll have to find what by yourself!”
.
THE MOTH ON THE EDGE OF AN ASH TRAY NEXT TO A SMOLDERING ROACH. THE PROFESSOR INTERRUPTS THE MOTH LECTURING ITSELF.

“…and therefore it is self evident that the fundamental concept expressed requires the consideration of the dynamic aspects of the basic nature of the essential structure upon which the entire theory rests.”

“Excuse me, I’m lost. Where am I?”

“Haven’t you been paying attention?” asked the moth, INHALING DEEPLY AS A SWATH OF SMOKE ROLLS BY.

“Oh- yes, but…”

THE MOTH EXHALES A CLOUD THAT ENGULFS THE PROFESSOR.
“To begin with, it must be recognized that essentials elements of the basic theory of Here require the supposition that the static nature of where must intersect the dynamic nature of When at the most fundamental level in order to form the Now. “

“Ah- then, When am I?” Ask The Professor, lost in a sea of smoke.

“Now, now, now, now, now, now, now, now…” the moth’s voice fades away.
THE SOUND OF FLAPPING WINGS.
-------
This may well be the most resonable thing I ever wrote!

[BlackGuardXIII]

Its 13, and I could send you the reasons why if you like......as for the duel, if it did come to pass, I'd likely let you win...I am such a softie.

Okay, now for my rebuttals, me? comprehension, merci, mon frere, mais non, I feel like a total idiot many times a day, and for good reasons.
thanks anyway, I am actually learning, and have been since around the age of 32, when I feel I started to grow up.

Very well written little story, I liked it. I will read it again, which I always do when something I read is very thick with meaning.

Barney Rubble once said to Fred Flintstone, "It takes a smart man to know how stupid he is." So, if he is right, since I know I am really stupid (but improving), I might actually be a genius, like our local provincial school system judged me to be in grade six. However, emotional maturity was not in the tests.......and I would have got an F there....

cheers, love your posts. BG13 that is XIII just to confirm, geezzzzzzz!

[geckopelli]

Opps!

I'm a drunken and lousy typist!

[BlackGuardXIII]

Opps!

I'm a drunken and lousy typist!
you may be hammered, but you are not a bad typist.

opps? lol


well, at least you're an honest, open, drunken typist.

I can well recall many times I imbibed one too many, though it was long ago, at least 5 years.

I may be stupid, but I know what love is. Forrest Gump

[Kharakov]

geckopelli. love the writing... (post 35)

[geckopelli]

Thanks!

[Disarm]

Disarm

Occam waits for you to do it...
Hopefully you will..
And occam had a stinky girlfriend once...she was the best sex he ever had.
She was ANIMAL

Occam Sounds good, cause I'm his girlfriend :D

[BlackGuardXIII]

Thanks!

well deserved praise.
the piece you posted is very good.


so much meaning, and humour, and in so little space.
good stuff.