X marks the spot

[drumminmama]

(a spin-off of the You might be an athiest thread)

Every year at Yuletide, the local thumpers get irritated with our paper for using "Xmas" in small headlines.
Last year, we recieved a lovely letter from a supposedly educated man calling us Satanists (sorry, I'm NOT Christian) and hateful.
A local Lutheran pastor, the Rev. Mike Malone, wrote a history of Christian persecution that explained that Xtian came FROM CHRISTIANITY.
X means "Christ" as a title, not a negation of him.
X was often seen in rooms where early Christians met, and is assumed to be equivalent to the fish symbol.

Please, don't make wars where there are no warriors. THe United States is 80 pecent Christian, according to recent surveys. A powerful majority cannot be persecuted by a minority.

[Brocktoon]

The Lutheran Pastor is correct.

Im not for certain but - The 'X' is not a short form of 'Christ' to my knowledge but is representing the Cross?

He might also be thinking of a 'X' shaped symbol that was made of a shepards staff and (?)

What really is happening has nothing to do with that.
Some people starting using the 'X' as a short-form of Christ(mas)

This was seen as disrespectful by some Christians (or thumpers as you call them all)
Some non-Christians even took offense because it 'seemed' like Merchants wanted to get the benefits of Christmas sales... but also wanted to side-step actually acknowledging the cultural context.

Now what is happening is that smart-mouth little jerks have noticed that it 'bugs thumpers' and are deliberately using it as a little jab-in-the-back when talking to Christians.

More bizarre... In the 90's Nightclubs started a new policy of marking designated drivers (non-drinkers) with 'X''s stamped across the top of the hands of the sober or under-age patrons.
Wierdly, this became an identifying symbol for Christian 'gangs' and radical anti-drug groups.

So its actually become something unto itself now, never mind adverts!

A minority certainly could terrorise and monopolise a population IF they hold the majority of the power.
In the case of Christians - I suspect you are looking at 80% of Americans who 'Identify' themselves as Christian from a 'Ethnic' and 'Sentimental' background.
In reality its probably a minority that are actual 'practicing' Christians - or even take it somewhat seriously.

[Samhain]

Please, don't make wars where there are no warriors. THe United States is 80 pecent Christian, according to recent surveys. A powerful majority cannot be persecuted by a minority.

thats as maybe, however the fastest growing religion in the west is now paganism.

we're on the up!

s

[ChiefCowpie]

not true, deism is the fastest growing religion

http://www.sullivan-county.com/images/paine3s.jpg Welcome to
Deism and Reason



I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond this life.

I believe the equality of man, and I believe that religious duties consist in doing justice, loving mercy, and endeavoring to make our fellow-creatures happy. Thomas Paine,
Age of Reason (http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/deist1999/index.htm)





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What is Deism? In 1990 little was heard of Deism outside of a few college history classes. By 2002 Deism has become the fastest growing belief system in America growing 717% (http://www.sullivan-county.com/identity/deism_grows.htm) in ten years without immigrants, missionaries, churches, money, or clergy. This came mainly through the internet which isn't controlled by those that want to keep knowledge and new ideas from reaching the common person. This came at a time when 100 million Americans claim no religious affiliation at all while atheism has had zero growth. The ranks of the "unchurched have exploded 110% and many would find Deism worthwhile to consider. It's those that are fed-up with "organized religion" and being told what to think are the ones we seek. In the end it's the individual that must decide and should have the freedom to do so. That doesn't make one wrong or damned if they decide to follow another path, there is no Hell in Deism. Deism has no creed or dogma.

[Samhain]

it sounds like a pagan religion to me and if so we're both right

s

[drumminmama]

I do not call all Christians "thumpers."

the people who wrote are very conservative, very evangelical, intolerant of the existance of other faiths, and looking for a fight.
They complained when we ran a photo of a menorah.
These same people said I would burn in hell for not believing in their god.
Sorry, born to a Jew. Makes me Chosen.

[Brocktoon]

I do not call all Christians "thumpers."

the people who wrote are very conservative, very evangelical, intolerant of the existance of other faiths, and looking for a fight.
They complained when we ran a photo of a menorah.
These same people said I would burn in hell for not believing in their god.
Sorry, born to a Jew. Makes me Chosen.
Well, unfortunately you always get those religious cranks who like to shout the loudest.
The general concerns about 'X-mas' (when used in Adverts) has been brought up by many reasonable Christians though.
In my local paper - there were many non-Christians equally as offended by what they percieved as disrespect.
One local businessman was Sihk and he made a point to have his business acknowledge Christ as the reason for the season (even though he is not a Christian)
His reasoning - "Because it IS a Christian Holiday!"

Now take the case of Jewish Businesses wanting the benefits of Christian traditions - but - refuse to acknowledge Jesus as the Christ.

Then why not simply write 'Christmas' with the understanding that the readers know its a Christian belief.
Certainly no one would be confused or attribute the business owner as 'promoting Christ'.
He is simply agreeing this is the common spelling.

I can't imagine wanting to have a 'Ramadan' sale, hoping to profit from the celebrations - yet - Spelling 'Allah' with some short-form like "The Big 'A'"?!

I don't believe Allah is God, yet I wouldnt be so disrespectful to Their belief he is!
Especially not when IM the one wanting to benefit from it!!

[Samhain]

its only an adaptation of winter solstice anyway, most people know that its unlikly that Jesus was born in December.
as a pagan i'm not going to be offeneded by the bastardisation of winter solstice, people can call it what they like, providing they leave me alone to practice my religion.

and christmas now as turned into a way of making money by most people
thats far more offensive to the concept of Jesus in my mind than calling it xmas

s

[Brocktoon]

Ok let me just address something about the last post:

There isn't any particular 'religion' or specific practice known as 'Pagan'.

Pagan is an Umbrella word which covers just about any belief system on Earth or certainly any and all rural religions that existed anywhere on Earth.

Having said that.. 'Pagans' did not invent Winter Solstice, which, is not a Festival but rather an astronomical event which happens each year - anywhere on the planet and always has regardless of the beliefs of the people experiencing it.

Yes.. Im sure many of the various Pagan groups chose to celebrate their, often completely different, Festivals on Winter Solstice.

So too did Christians decide that the shortest day of the year was as good as any to celebrate Jesus Birth.
Since there were already probably thousands of different sects, cults, religions, groups ALSO having their different festivals on that day - why not us?

True - MANY if not most Christians were from some 'pagan' background and were simply used to having that day off anyway.
Im sure many 'adapted' their holiday decorations (be it a MayPole or a Totem Pole)
This does not mean they were turning non-Christians days into something else.
Heck.. many groups kept practicing for centuries after!

I strongly agree with you about the commercialisation.
It has actually come to a point where its almost blatantly anti-Christian and probably offensive to anyone not enslaved to the new religion of 'getting stuff'.

Hey.. you know a few years ago a cheeky Shopping Centre sign-maker put up the new 'Christmas shopping hours' with the words "Hours of Worship" above the new times.
It was on the news and the next day the Mall was inundated with angry calls and threats of boycotts.

Now I thought about it for a while and concluded that maybe the 'humourous' sign-maker actually had a darn good and accurate point to make and I think he might have been the one in the right!

Its just that, for some people - the truth hurts!

[WayfaringStranger]

80% may call themselves christians, but true christians are persecuted. kids gotta realize that your fight is not with the christian faith, its with a bunch of manipulative rich people.

[ChiefCowpie]

x is actually the first thing borrowed from the christians by the pagans to name their popular bliss inducing drug, ecstacy or x

[ChiefCowpie]

So too did Christians decide that the shortest day of the year was as good as any to celebrate Jesus Birth.
Since there were already probably thousands of different sects, cults, religions, groups ALSO having their different festivals on that day - why not us?


"Spirit of Spirit, if it be your will, give me over to immortal birth so that I may be born again - and the sacred spirit may breathe in me."
Prayer to Mithras

A Look at Mithraism

The roots of Mithraism go back to a Persian religion (Zoroastrianism) and one of its Magi, named Zarathustra, whose name for "God" was Ahura-Mazda. Around 390 B.C.E., This religion made its way west into Greece, and placed "Mithras" in the role of a deity equal to the sun god. Its priests were "Magi;" the same Magi who visited Betl'chem when Jesus was born.

Zarathustra had predicted a Messiah, and Jesus' birth was thought perhaps to be his arrival. In the Persian "Avesta" (their religious writings), this Messiah will appear at the end of time to bring the triumph of good over evil. They call him the "Saushyant," and according to the Bundahishn (XXX,25), he will slay a magnificent bull, and make a potion of immortality for mankind from its fat, mixed with Hamoa juice.

The early Christians saw in the Magi's anticipation of `Jesus' coming a confirmation of their own belief and so allowed them to worship their Savior. The festival of Mithras' birth was December 25th, the winter solstice, and the rebirth of the sun's light. He was said to have been forced out of a rock, wearing the Phrygian cap, holding a dagger and torch in his hands. This conception is almost certainly based on an ancient tradition dating from the time when humans first discovered that both light and fire could be produced by striking a flint.

[gnrm23]

X = chi

greek letter, first letter in greek word christos (= "annointed one" = massiach)

www.dimensional.com/~randl/icthus.htm (http://www.dimensional.com/~randl/icthus.htm)

[Lilyrayne]

I'm a Christian, and I consider myself to be a reasonable one because I don't "push" my religion where it's unwanted... I don't preach to people who don't wanna hear it or try to convert my pagan friends. I let them be who they are and respect what they believe. I keep the attitude that everyone believes different things and that's ok, I'm going to believe what I believe and they can believe what they believe. I will speak up and bring up differenes or what I beleive, but never to PUSH it on them, just only for knowledges sake. I expect the same from them.

The only time I am "loud" or assertive with my beliefs is within my own circles... that means among other people of similiar beliefs to mine, in my house, my church if I am going to one at the time, and in my personal forums and messages boards online. If one visits my home, you will see a picture of Christ and several Bibles and Christian books. I am who I am and I am not going to be quiet because someone doesn't agree with it. But see, I can still do that without stepping on other people's toes, and that's what I try to do.

However, I am loud when someone ELSE steps on MY toes... If I see something that I view to be disrespect to my beliefs or who I am as a person, I take it personal and I am not going to be quiet about it, just like a pagan who stands up for their beliefs if I step on theirs. We all have the same rights. Just because I'm a Christian and I don't push it where it's unwanted doesn't mean I can't stand up for what I feel to be disrespect. So I also expect other Pagans to accept that, since I listen and accept it when they complain about me stepping on their toes.

It's called mutual respect.

That said, I have to say that my personal opinion is that substituing "X" for "Christ" in Christian terminology is disrespecful to me. I know that those who use it don't always intend it to be disrespectful or a jab at Christians, but I do feel that it is anyay. To me it gives me the feeling that by crossing out Christ's name, they don't take MY beliefs seriously and are publicly mocking it. Again, I know that's not always the intention, but it hurts my feelings. I don't publicly mock Pagan beliefs. I even counsel my pagan friends with advice that is somewhat tailored to what I know of their beliefs! It is because I know that their beliefs are as real and serious to them as mine are to me. Some of my fellow Christians may think that I am TOO soft when it comes to these kind of things, but I feel like that no one is gonna get anywhere by taking shots at each other's beliefs, especially when they do things they KNOW offends the other person.

I know that a lot of so-called "Christians" can go overboard with their aggressiveness and whatnot, and that it irritates those who aren't Christians... maybe that's why people use "Xtians" so much. To be honest, even I get annoyed with "Christians" who are of the "Bible thumper" stereotype, but why should I suffer personally because of a few stupid Christians who seemed to have missed the point? Is it so much to ask that my beliefs be respected and taken seriously as I respect other beliefs and take them seriously... to go to the very little extra effort to type those 5 extra letters instead of the one?

[Danimal]

im christian, and i think christians needs to get a life or set there priorities straight,


Who gives a crap how its spelled, dont you know its all about the heart of someone that makes the difference.

If someone puts x in christmas purposly to start a fight or purposly to remove christ then let them deal with it themselves, dont fall for it and start argueing about it.

I mean come on fellow christians lets not be so lame.

[Smudge]

X = chi

greek letter, first letter in greek word christos (= "annointed one" = massiach)

www.dimensional.com/~randl/icthus.htm (http://www.dimensional.com/~randl/icthus.htm)
Thanks I thought it was that, but couldn't remember the details...

Bree, I am totally with the Spirit of your post, but Christ isn't really His Name...His name is Jesus (Yeshua really), and Christ is his title, or role...(Messiah really is better than Christ as that is the hellenized form which makes some people think He is for white Western people too much.)

when they start messing round with the Name, Jesus, or Yeshua, then I get very upset, as He is a Person, someone I love.:(

[Epiphany]

In the 60's, they took prayer and God out of schools because they didn't want there to be a merge of religion and state. Recently, an atheist wanted to remove the Pledge of Allegiance because he didn't feel that his daughter should be, "Corrupted by those who, "Rely on religion as a crutch". Now, in Massachusettes they have passed a law for same sex marriages, taking the God-given union of man and woman, and turning it into a free for all. Using an, "X", in place of Christ for Christmas, is just another way of turning society away from God. Today, Easter is all about chocolate and bunnies, and "X"mas is all about overpriced toys. People simply do not want to hear about God. Which is quite sad.

[ChiefCowpie]

epiphany, people are interested in God, not just the narrow-minded fundementalist xtian version of the Bible which needs some editing to remove the fallacies of an omnipotent all-loving God who behaves vindictivly...quite a contradiction...wouldn't you say?

[Smudge]

epiphany, people are interested in God, not just the narrow-minded fundementalist xtian version of the Bible which needs some editing to remove the fallacies of an omnipotent all-loving God who behaves vindictivly...quite a contradiction...wouldn't you say?
er...who did you say behaves vindictively?:rolleyes:

[ChiefCowpie]

god and god and god and god...the one with the multiple split personality disorder

[Epiphany]

If people were interested in God, prayer would still be in schools, society would still preach his messages instead of saying that Christians were stuck in the, "old ways", and people wouldn't take Christ's name out of Christmas. People wouldn't tell the story of some old man in a suit jumping down chimmneys and leaving gifts. Regardless of whether or not Jesus was actually born on december 25th, according to the calender being changed, the point is, that is when his birthday is celebrated. It all comes down to respect. When I celebrate my friend's birthday, I don't say x's birthday. I call them by their names. Jesus's title is Christ, his birthday is called Christmas.

[AT98BooBoo]

The U.S. Supreme Court declared school sponsored prayer to be unconstitutional because it does violate the separation of church and state. Thomas Jefferson said that the establishment and free excercise clause of the 1st amendment was meant to "Establish a wall of sepatation between church and state. Jefferson and most of our Founding Fathers believed in the separation of church and state because the knew that God's kingdom is based upon freedom of conscience. The best way to insure freedom of conscience is to keep church and state separate. You can still pray in school ie before tests before eating lunch etc... You can also read your Bible during free time. I'm a Christian and I did these things when I went to public school and no one tried to tell me I couldn't do them.Jesus gave his followers instruction on prayer.(not sure of book chapter of verse this is of the top of my head) "When you pray do not be like the Pharisee's that stand on street corners and give long loud, publice prayers,for they have their reward. Instead go into your house and pray privately. The Father that you pray to privately will reward you publically."

That seems pretty clear.

[Kharakov]

X= a kiss

X= Christ

X= what i see when i close my eyes

X marks the spot.

X is the chi

X is the female

Y is the male

Z is the omega, the completion of the is

[cerridwen]

never thought to over think the 'x' that way but good point...

[Zoomie]

If people were interested in God...
If.

So according to you, no one else is or was interested in God except YOU and your select little clique, your little popularity club. And I'm still sad because I couldn't be a cheerleader in high school. I guess I wouldn't look good in the little skirt. I have knobby knees, you know. You have no right to feel persecuted, for you ARE the majority. This isn't Rome. You won't be fed to the lions for Caesar's entertainment. Not only are you the majority, you are part of the minority within the majority that wants to eradicate all the OTHER minorities. You know, kind of like the Tutsi and the Hutu? If this were not the case you wouldn't try to scare us, you wouldn't constantly go on about how we're wrong and we're all going to burn in hell. But your statement proudly displays your own feelings of persecution, how you perceive the path of the righteous beset with tyranny etc etc etc...

If.

If worms had machine guns, birds wouldn't mess with them.

I'm not bitter, I'm not even angry. I'm laughing out loud as I watch the human condition slide down a slippery slope. Anyone else feel the bloodletting just over the horizon?

[Kharakov]

Anyone else feel the bloodletting just over the horizon? Every once in a while I feel bloodthirsty, like I would like to wade through a crowd of people rending (eviscerating, devastating, ripping and tearing) their flesh with spiritual force.

I taste the coppery scent of blood.

[ryupower]

I always thought that the 'X' came from the cross...

[Zoomie]

Every once in a while I feel bloodthirsty, like I would like to wade through a crowd of people rending (eviscerating, devastating, ripping and tearing) their flesh with spiritual force.

I taste the coppery scent of blood.
Dude... Cooper's Lake, August 21st... I'm feelin' it.

[Kharakov]

lol... :)

[Kharakov]

I always thought that the 'X' came from the cross...
No, it's actually the t that comes from the cross. The X is from when the t fell over.

[Zoomie]

No I'm serious. Come to Pennsic this year, we can armor up and kick some major crusader ass.

[ryupower]

No, it's actually the t that comes from the cross. The X is from when the t fell over.

OK. Got it. http://hipforums.com/forums/images/icons/newicons/icon14.gif

[Kharakov]

No I'm serious. Come to Pennsic this year, we can armor up and kick some major crusader ass.
That brings a smile to my face. You need to keep me up to date on this and get me information about it so I can decide whether I would like to participate.

[Zoomie]

http://http://www.pennsicwar.org/penn34/index.html

[Kharakov]

I have little recreational income. If I am lucky, about $20 a month (all my clothes are literally rat eaten from my pet rats, I think I have 2 shirts that are half decent without holes in them, and no pants without holes). Who knows what will happen between now and then, however. Maybe I will be able to do what I wish...