liberation or torment?

[Shockw4ve]

I was just wondering how many of you think that your views are liberating for your mind, or more tormenting. Unfortunately for me I didn't make it a point to go out of my way to try and think "outside the box" until 2001. That was the year that I lost almost everything that I've ever loved and owned in my life. It wasn't the bad things happening to me that sparked the change though. It was the fact that I had no personal belongings with the exception of clothes, and plenty of free time due to the fact that it was next to impossible for me to get a job at the time. I decided to make a list consisting of everything that I had been taught since birth and examine them as extensively as possible. Religion was a very difficult issue to deal for me. I, like many of you, had been taught to be a Christian from birth. Getting over the fear of going to hell was what finally snapped the chains enveloping my mind. From that point on I have felt like a free spirit. I have beome comfortable with the fact that I will never know all the answers to the questions that I have about life. I am also completely comfortable with the thought of my own death, and not knowing what lies in store for me afterwards. I do not believe that we were meant to know all these answers or if presented with them would even be capable of understanding them.

[thumontico]

Freedom of possibility exists infinitely. Within it there exists all emotions, bad and good. Liberation from conformity for me creates happiness, however, that is not to say I do not feel sadness (anxiety).

[Shockw4ve]

Are you trying to say that you feel sad as all humans do, or that your noncomformity brings about the sadness?

[thumontico]

I experience anxiety as all do. I assume as all do, for I cannot know with any kind of certainty. The dread of having to go to work and the uncertainty of what I will do with my life. However, I believe emotions can be controlled. So as to experience happiness on demand. Perhaps it is the discipline I lack or the motivation to master the ability. I must try. You see my recent physical pain has detered mine furtherment of mental ability. An inability perhaps possessed in such a situation by myself alone, but possessed nonetheless.

[Sera Michele]

I would have to say I feel both liberation and torment. And torment not because I am in fear of the afterlife or anything like that, but torment because I can now see how we are really treating eachother, and how awful it sometimes is. I wish I could snap my fingers and open everyone's eyes, but know it doesn't just work like that.

I don't have a problem with people having their seperate beliefs, in fact the opposite, I think that is a great thing and part of what makes up our cultural identity. I love the diversity in the world. It is the widespread intolerance of other's that stems from one's beliefs that troubles me.

[BlackGuardXIII]

Tremendous liberation, virtually no torment. I find that the only time my beliefs play any part in my being upset is when I forget that other peoples lies and slanderous comments about me have nothing to do with me.
Sometimes, still, I take these attacks personally. I soon remember that they are not worth me getting upset over, since they are untrue, and I do not believe them. They say more about the person who is doing the lying, and nothing about me.
So really, for the most part, the torment is minimal, and shortlived.
The liberation is constant, and sure.

[Hikaru Zero]

As a person who does not fit into the norm of society, and never truly has to begin with, I'd like to think that I have experienced the extremes. That is, the ultimate happiness, and the ultimate sadness. My liberation/torment, as I see it, is not really liberation and/or torment, but rather kind of like an updated video card driver. Everyone else (save those on these boards ;) ) is running themselves on old, outdated drivers, which have many limits but few problems. I, on the other hand, am running the newest beta drivers. Which gives me the ability to experience things in ways no person running the older drivers could. But, at the same time, I have more problems than the average person, because of how new my drivers are. But once you start using the new drivers, you can't ever go back, because you realize how much the old drivers sucked so much.

Now, if that makes any sense to you, and you're female, maybe we ought to chat a bit, from one programmer to another. ;) Hahaha ...

But realistically, there are two things ... no, well, one thing, that I still haven't experienced with these new drivers, and I don't know nor do I care how long it will take, as long as in the end it all works out. But if some deitic figure does exist, I wish he'd cut me some slack every now and again! Until then, I console myself with the fact that all the other ignorant people on the old drivers cannot fathom the things I've thought or the emotions I've felt. And I continue to live as an advocate of the new drivers, so I can spread what I've seen to as many people as possible, and bring them into the new age.

[BlackGuardXIII]

I agree to a point Hikky, being a highschool heavy metal fan in the 'gifted' program. Sensitive and yet tough, smart yet a partier. I never quite fit anywhere. The couple friends I did make, though, lasted many years past school.

I feel, though we may be anxious that people see that a huge change is now occuring, we cannot bring them along. They, like me, will come when ready, whether or not we are totally informed and aware. It is an error, in my view, to even try to get anyone to see things that they do not. I still will share my thoughts, but with no expectation or desire for others to agree or change their thinking cuz of them.
You, I feel, already know this, as you did make it clear, you are spreading the word. That is all one can do, and I just let go the feelings of angst I used to have, hoping others might accept it. If they do or not, I feel the same.

[Shockw4ve]

I think I can relate most to what Hikaru and Blackguard wrote. I do not feel that you should torment yourself with trying to change people. Although it can be quite frustrating to watch people continually head down the path of ignorance instead of away from it. The only thing you can do is TRY to plant a seed within a person's mind. If the soil is fertile the plant will grow and thrive.

[Hikaru Zero]

I agree to a point Hikky, being a highschool heavy metal fan in the 'gifted' program. Sensitive and yet tough, smart yet a partier. I never quite fit anywhere. The couple friends I did make, though, lasted many years past school.

I feel, though we may be anxious that people see that a huge change is now occuring, we cannot bring them along. They, like me, will come when ready, whether or not we are totally informed and aware. It is an error, in my view, to even try to get anyone to see things that they do not. I still will share my thoughts, but with no expectation or desire for others to agree or change their thinking cuz of them.
You, I feel, already know this, as you did make it clear, you are spreading the word. That is all one can do, and I just let go the feelings of angst I used to have, hoping others might accept it. If they do or not, I feel the same.

I think I can relate most to what Hikaru and Blackguard wrote. I do not feel that you should torment yourself with trying to change people. Although it can be quite frustrating to watch people continually head down the path of ignorance instead of away from it. The only thing you can do is TRY to plant a seed within a person's mind. If the soil is fertile the plant will grow and thrive.

Blackguard,

Then it seems we have extremely similar upbringings. ;)

Both,

However ... as impossible as it very well may be, to enlighten others and bring any kind of change in society (without resorting to violence, of course), I feel that it is my obligation ... or rather, my challenge to myself, to at the very least try. There are 6 billion people in this world, and I can't change them all. But if I can at least help bring enlightenment to even one other person, I consider it my duty to aid in bringing that time about.

Regardless, spreading the word is the only way to do this. In this world, people like us are not powerful; we couldn't bring change to society through force. Instead, tolerance and compassion must be used. Let me explain the best I can.

A little over half a year ago, my friend, his sister, and myself went over to Domino's Pizza to buy a few pizzas. Around this time, I was questioning many things, and one of the things I respected was just that: respect, and tolerance. On the way back, I commented to my friend's sister about how despite the fact that she was vegan, she didn't hold any kind of hostility to me, thought I said something like "That's cool, that you respect my decision to not be vegan." And she replied, "I don't respect your decision. But I respect the fact that it's your decision to make."

Today, I'm 100% vegan, and I have her tolerance to thank for that.

I think that people can change this world just by being generous and pure. So I try my best to be the same ... yes, I need improving, but we all do, and if I can spur improvement in other people, I find that in order to improve myself, I need to meet that challenge. I can't think highly of myself if I become a recluse, or if I become pious just because I believe that I can't bring the rest of society to enlightenment. That's why, even if I think it's impossible, I have to at least try. I've seen it done before, to me, and I believe it can be done to others as well.

[BlackGuardXIII]

So, did she change you? I would guess not. And that is the beauty of accepting others rights to choose. Once we do that, we at least do not turn them away through the mechanism of resisting for the sake of feeling coerced.

[Defence_mechanism]

"I don't respect your decision. But I respect the fact that it's your decision to make."

thats exactly how i feel about religious people. :) its their choice, but ultimately i feel that i would never in a million years choose the path that they have chosen.

in reply to the intial question, i feel liberated that i can view the world from my own open-minded perspective and not that of a 2000 (or more) year old institution... but i feel tormented that many people use their religion to fuel prejudices and i cant talk sense into them.

[Razorofoccam]

Getting over the fear of going to hell was what finally snapped the chains enveloping my mind. From that point on I have felt like a free spirit.
Shock

Exactly what hell is for....To destroy free spirits...
As is any religion that promotes it.

Well said.

Occam

[BlackGuardXIII]

thats exactly how i feel about religious people. :) its their choice, but ultimately i feel that i would never in a million years choose the path that they have chosen.

in reply to the intial question, i feel liberated that i can view the world from my own open-minded perspective and not that of a 2000 (or more) year old institution... but i feel tormented that many people use their religion to fuel prejudices and i cant talk sense into them.

"The Choice Theory", Psychologist William Glasser. This book explains why you can't talk sense into them.
I am forty, and only since turning 30 have I really accepted that we are not able or even supposed to try to, change anyone but ourselves. All we can hope for, is to say what we feel about their stance, and let go of it. Set an example and then, if and when they choose to make any change in their views, you at least will not have pushed them away. This pushing away is what I see whenever someone tries to force me to agree with them, I just instinctively resist.

[Hikaru Zero]

"The Choice Theory", Psychologist William Glasser. This book explains why you can't talk sense into them.
I am forty, and only since turning 30 have I really accepted that we are not able or even supposed to try to, change anyone but ourselves. All we can hope for, is to say what we feel about their stance, and let go of it. Set an example and then, if and when they choose to make any change in their views, you at least will not have pushed them away. This pushing away is what I see whenever someone tries to force me to agree with them, I just instinctively resist.

BlackGuard:

That is the exact idea I was trying to convey in my post. I guess I just kind of sucked dirt there, though.

I was trying to point out the fact that my friend DIDN'T push me away, which is why I made the choice to become vegan. Every time someone tries to force something on me or without personal cause try to convert me to some manner of thinking, I naturally resist. However, when they don't try to force something on me, I actually listen, and make my own judgement.

[Razorofoccam]

"The Choice Theory", Psychologist William Glasser. This book explains why you can't talk sense into them.
I am forty, and only since turning 30 have I really accepted that we are not able or even supposed to try to, change anyone but ourselves. All we can hope for, is to say what we feel about their stance, and let go of it. Set an example and then, if and when they choose to make any change in their views, you at least will not have pushed them away. This pushing away is what I see whenever someone tries to force me to agree with them, I just instinctively resist.
Blackguard

Agree..Occam is 45 And decided that it is FAR easier to change oneself than any other.

Occam only pushes away those that speak without underpinning understanding...He asks them to UNDERSTAND.
Through the process called reason...

There can be no rational conversation with those that are without reason.

To occam.
That is all religions and 80% of humanity.

Just LOOK at you daily commercial news station and their opinions to see how little humanity understands.
THE NEWS HAS little TO DO WITH REALITY.

Yet PEOPLE call it fact..what a JOKE.
Occam has had people asking if N Korean missles can reach australia..
Total ignorance.
Many americans must also have asked this...
Ignorance...
What do you do with ignorance?
Kill it..

You do THAT by not being ignorant.
By WORKING to understand

Nothing is free. [except a life of total ignorance and acceptance]


Occam

[Revenant Phantasm]

Short and simple: Ignorance is bliss

[Occam]

Short and simple: Ignorance is bliss
Mr R Phantasm...

Yes.. No reponsibillity...

Occam

[Occam]

thats exactly how i feel about religious people. :) its their choice, but ultimately i feel that i would never in a million years choose the path that they have chosen.

in reply to the intial question, i feel liberated that i can view the world from my own open-minded perspective and not that of a 2000 (or more) year old institution... but i feel tormented that many people use their religion to fuel prejudices and i cant talk sense into them. Defence_mechanism

occam asks ?
Why would you wish to talk sense into them?

Dont try... simply LIVE a good life...
Others 'opinions of you' are not you...
They are 3rd hand fantasy...



Occam

[BlackGuardXIII]

Defence_mechanism

occam asks ?
Why would you wish to talk sense into them?

Dont try... simply LIVE a good life...
Others 'opinions of you' are not you...
They are 3rd hand fantasy...



Occam
Said very well, short and sweet. I wrestle with the urge to 'talk sense' into some people, and sometimes, give in and try to...........it is futile. I must keep repeating that to myself, futile, futile, futile............