Is the Qur'an the Word of God?

[maharaj]

To all Muslim and Non-muslim viewers,

This might be a very interesting article.

Islam claims that the Qur'an is not only God's Word, but that it is the final revelation given to humanity. It comes from the "Mother of all books" according to sura 43:2-4. Muslims maintain that the Qur'an is an exact word-for-word copy of God's final revelation which is found on the original tablets that have always existed in heaven. They point to sura 85:21-22 which says, "Nay this is a glorious Qur'an, (inscribed) in a tablet preserved." Islamic scholars contend that this passage refers to the tablets which were never created. They believe that the Qur'an is an identical copy of the eternal heavenly book, even so far as the punctuation, titles and divisions of chapters are concerned.

According to Muslim tradition, these revelations' began to be sent down (Tanzil or Nazil) (sura 17:85), to the lowest of the seven heavens in the month of Ramadan, during the night of power or destiny (lailat al Qadr) (Pfander, 1910:262). From there they were revealed to Muhammad in installments, as need arose, via the angel Gabriel (sura 25:32). Consequently, every letter and every word is free from any human influence, which gives the Qur'an an aura of authority, even holiness, and with such, its integrity.

Most westerners have accepted these claims from Muslims at face value. They have never had the ability to argue their veracity, because the claims could neither be proved nor disproved, as their authority was derived solely from the Qur'an itself (dispelling any attempt to wrest from the pages of the Bible fulfilled prophecies of Deuteronomy 18, John 14, 16; and perhaps others).

There has also been a reticence to question the Qur'an and the prophet due to the adverse response directed upon those who were brave enough to attempt it in the past. The fact is that for too long westerners have been content to assume that the Muslims had evidence and data to substantiate their claims.

It is only now, as secular scholars of Islam (known as "Orientalists") re-examine the Islamic sources, that evidence is being uncovered which puts into question much of what we have been led to believe concerning Muhammad and his revelation,' the Qur'an.

The findings of these scholars indicate that the Qur'an was not revealed to just one man, but was a compilation of later redactions (or editions) formulated by a group of men, over the course of a few hundred years (Rippin 1985:155; and 1990:3,25, 60). In other words, the Qur'an which we read today is not that which was in existence in the mid-seventh century, but was more than likely a product of the eighth and ninth centuries (Wansbrough 1977:160-163). It was at this time, the Orientalists say, particularly in the ninth century, that Islam took on its classical identity and became that which is recognizable today. Consequently, the formative stage of Islam, they contend, was not within the lifetime of Muhammad but evolved over a period of 200-300 years (Humphreys 1991:71, 83-89).

Source material for this period, however, is sparse. Essentially the only sources which had been available to the historians were Muslim sources. What is more, outside the Qur'an,' the sources are all late. Prior to 750 A.D. we have no verifiable Muslim documents which can give us a window into this formative period of Islam (Wansbrough 1978:58-59). Nothing exists with which to corroborate Muslim Tradition' material (that is, Islamic history based on their traditions). Later documents simply draw upon earlier documents, which no longer exist today (if indeed they existed at all) (Crone 1987:225-226; Humphreys 1991:73). This classical period (around 800 A.D.) describes the earlier period, but from its own viewpoint, much like an adult, writing about their childhood will tend to remember those areas which were pleasant. Thus, the account is coloured, and biased, and as such cannot be accepted as authentic by historical scholars (refer to Crone's studies on the problems of the traditions,' especially those which were dependent on local storytellers, in Meccan Trade....1987, pp.203-230 and Slaves on Horses, 1980, pp. 3-17).

Consequently, the demarcation line between what the historian will accept and that which Muslim Traditions maintain is growing further apart for the following reasons: Islam, according to orthodox Muslim scholars, gives complete credence to divine intervention for its revelation. Muslim Tradition asserts that Allah sent down his revelation to Muhammad via the angel Gabriel (Jibril) over a period of twenty-two years (610-632 A.D.), in which time many of the laws and traditions which delineate that which we define as Islam were formulated and worked out.

Yet it is this scenario which secular historians are balking at today, as it presupposes that in the early seventh century, Islam, a religion of immense sophistication, of intricate laws and traditions was formulated in a backward' nomadic culture and became fully functional in only twenty two years.

The Hijaz (central Arabia) before that time was hardly known in the civilized world. Even the later traditions refer to this period as Jahiliyya (or period of ignorance, implying its backwardness). Arabia before Muhammad did not have an urbanized culture, nor could it boast a sophisticated infrastructure needed to create, let alone maintain the scenario painted by the later traditions for the early period of Islam (Rippin 1990:3-4). So, how did it come together so neatly and so quickly? There is no historical precedence for such a scenario. One would expect such a degree of sophistication over a period of one or two centuries, provided there were other sources, such as neighbouring cultures from which traditions and laws could be borrowed, but certainly not within an unsophisticated desert environment, and certainly not within a period of a mere 22 years.

Secular historians cannot simply accept the position posited by the later traditions that this all came about by divine revelation, as they maintain that all of history must be substantiated with historical evidence. They are forced to stand back and ask how we know what we know, where the information originates, and whether it stands up to an "unbiased" or neutral historical analysis.

Historians had, therefore, been pushed into a dilemma. Due to their secular presuppositions they could not base their research on the existence of God, yet they could not throw out the Muslim Traditions (which naturally presuppose His existence), because they were the best and at times only documents available.

That is, until recently.

The new crop of historical experts on Islam (such as Dr. John Wansbrough, Michael Cook [both from SOAS], Patricia Crone formerly from Oxford, now lecturing at Cambridge, Yehuda Nevo from the University of Jerusalem, Andrew Rippin from Canada, and others), while admitting that there is a mystery concerning the question of divine intervention, are now looking more closely at other sources concerning the Qur'an to ascertain clues to its origins. It is these sources which are now beginning to reveal evidence for alternative explanations to the beginnings of a religion which today encompasses 1/5th of the world's population, and is growing faster then any other major religion.

It is their work, therefore, that I would like to use, to understand better a possible origin for the Qur'an. It is their material, and others, which, I feel, Muslim apologists will need to face seriously in the years ahead, as much of this new data puts into serious doubt many of the claims forwarded by traditional Muslim scholars concerning their holy book, the Qur'an, and their prophet, Muhammad. Let us, then begin our analysis by taking a look at the sources for much of what we know concerning Islam, its prophet and its book.Below are the following sources:

A.Problems with the Islamic Traditions (http://debate.org.uk/topics/history/debate/part1.htm#B)
B.Internal Critique of the Qur'an (http://debate.org.uk/topics/history/debate/part2.htm#C)
C.External Critique of the Qur'an (http://debate.org.uk/topics/history/debate/part3.htm#D)
D.Conclusion Non-Islamic Resources (http://debate.org.uk/topics/history/debate/part3.htm#E)

[tom]

What you copy and pasted is nothing but garbage and lies. Moohammed was nothing but a good story teller, murderer, and child molester (all in the koran). I'm sorry that you've been sucked into his lies. If you want to real word of God, pick up the Bible.

[Brocktoon]

Great Post Maharaj

(Tom... I think the original post is asking if the Koran is trustworthy - not insisting it is. Please read again.)

This is very signifigant because the Koran is about to be subjected to what the Bible was subjected to in recent decades.
Then we called it 'Higher Critisism' although terms like 'Internal Critisism' are describing the same things.

At first, it may appear as if many critical scholars have 'cornered' The Koran.

Be patient.

Christian scholars had a dilema when the first waves of 'Higher Critisism' crashed the gates of The Church.
They had not only 'taken it for granted' but in many cases forgot what the original 'defenses' were.. and where they were!

Although it appeared the critical scholars had a convincing argument (not that they were convincing but because Christians were 'speachless')
Eventually it forced Biblical scholars to work on the problems and in many cases - find answers and evidence they would not otherwise have looked for and found.

This will be hard on Islam and for the first few decades you will see a dramatic 'falling away' and many 'soft' Muslims begin to give only 'sentimental' devotion.

New Mosques focusing on 'soft Islam' will become popular and probably teach that the Koran is just 'an allegory' or 'Poem' and not actual events and truths.

I think you are already seeing the beginnings of this with Bin Laden and other 'Fundamentalists' lashing out.
They saw what happened in the West to Christianity and they know it will come to the Middle East if Secular Democracy takes over.

Im getting through some of the articles you linked - but - Let me say this:
I intend to be as critical of the 'critical scholars' as they are of the Koran!

In the West, very few people seem to question the questioners. They should.

[cabdirazzaq]

I'm quite suprised that these words come from people who call them self muslims. My advice to such people -who are ready to examine the quran and start doubting its faultness- is to first examine and understand the meaning of the word muslim as they call themselves. A muslim is one who submits, who gives him self over just like a slave would do, if you for example translate my name it would be something like: slave[servant]to the Provider which means that I shoul do as my lord commands without ever doubting his words.

2.285: ... Each one (of them) believeth in Allah, His angels, His books, and His messengers. "We make no distinction (they say) between one and another of His messengers." And they say: "We hear, and we obey: (We seek) Thy forgiveness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys."

This belief of mine which means that I'm ready to do every thing I'm commanded by Allah(may he be exalted) is found quite odd my disbelivers I've noticed. Now I ask you, why do you find it strange/weir/odd or even crazy that I do as I'm told? Let us say you would believe in Allah(may he be exatled) and his books without doubt, would you then still question the orders you receive? Most christians[not all] that are living nowadays do believe in God but they usually say no to things which they find not fitting their way of thinking. I must say that I find such a thing quite odd, if a doctor gives you a medicine , let's say for back pains would you start questioning the medicine and why one should take it in the morning and in the evening vice versa or do you submit and take the medicine as you were told? Then what about the All Knowing and All wise?
Moreover atheists say that they don't belive in any God but I can't agree to that claim as they believe in what Allah(may he be exatled) describes in the quran:

45:23 Then seest thou such a one as takes as his god his own vain desire?..

[maharaj]

A muslim is one who submits, who gives him self over just like a slave would do, if you for example translate my name it would be something like: slave[servant]to the Provider which means that I shoul do as my lord commands without ever doubting his words.


Maharaj is just a name or label. It does not refer to particular ethnic or group of people who call themselves muslims or christians, etc. In this world I was born to be happy and to be the master in life not to be a slave. A true mentor(teacher), provider, or leader does NOT treat his people, disciples(students) or constituents to be a slave, igonorant and blindly follow his command rather he respect their inherent dignity and seek out to those people to develop their innate potentialities so that they may attain true happiness, to be inedependent and established oneself. Thereby, find the truth oneself.. This is the true path of life, the path of Oneness of Mentor and Disciple(follower).I am reminded one of the founder(teacher) of great religions whom i admired most.To the seekers of truth as well as How he treat his disciples(or followers) to be wise and not slaves, he says:

"Do not accept anything on (mere) hearsay -- (i.e., thinking that thus have we heard it from a long time). Do not accept anything by mere tradition -- (i.e., thinking that it has thus been handed down through many generations). Do not accept anything on account of mere rumors -- (i.e., by believing what others say without any investigation). Do not accept anything just because it accords with your scriptures. Do not accept anything by mere suppositions. Do not accept anything by mere inference. Do not accept anything by merely considering the reasons. Do not accept anything merely because it agrees with your pre-conceived notions. Do not accept anything merely because it seems acceptable -- (i.e., thinking that as the speaker seems to be a good person his words should be accepted). Do not accept anything thinking that the ascetic is respected by us (therefore it is right to accept his word).

"But when you know for yourselves -- these things are immoral, these things are blameworthy, these things are censured by the wise, these things, when performed and undertaken conduce to ruin and sorrow -- then indeed do you reject them.

"When you know for yourselves -- these things are moral, these things are blameless, these things are praised by the wise, these things, when performed and undertaken, conduce to well-being and happiness -- then do you live acting accordingly." (Siddhartha Gautama)

These are inspiring words.

On ther hand, Religion if i may speak itself arose in order to ease humanity's fear and apprehensions about life and death. Yet most religions offer no more than a simple formula for belief in order to allow us to have confidence about the future and the afterlife. Many religions espouse the existence of an abosolute, controlling a deity or power, so that we may remove the burden of responsibility from ourselves for solving our most fundamental problems.In addition, most teach some kind of theory about what happens after we die,which people are exhorted to believe in.

Nevertheless, belief alone might some confidence, but belief in and itself does NOT guarantte that what we believe is true. In order to truly undestand the nature of Life and death, and gain genuine confidence, what we need is Wisdom- penetrating insight rooted in the depths of Life itself.In addition, we need the internal power and fortitude to conquer our own weaknesses and fears, and to act confidently upon our beliefs, thus demonstrating their validity through our actions.In addition, we need the power of compassion and courage to enable others to transcend their own limitations and establish the true confidence and happiness in Life.

[Cosmic Butterfly]

LOL! Is the Bible really that much better?;)

[tom]

LOL! Is the Bible really that much better?;)
Yes. The Bible states the facts while the koran is one big fairy tale.

[Cosmic Butterfly]

They are all "stories" to me. If you want to know God then look at yourself, the stars, and the planet.

[cabdirazzaq]

I can agree with you when you say: If you want to know God then look at yourself, the stars, and the planet. But not when you say: They are all "stories" as if it never happend, by Allah these things did happen and Allah(may he be exalted) sended these mentionings to remind us and to teach us.
Allah(may he be exalted) says (interpretation of the meaning):

We do relate unto thee the most beautiful of stories, in that We reveal to thee this (portion of the) Qur'an: before this, thou too was among those who knew it not.[Yusuf 12:3]

The heavens and the earth, the mountains and the seas, the stars, the sun and the moon are among the signs of Allah(may he be exalted)
Allah(may he be exalted) says (interpretation of the meaning):

Your Guardian-Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six days, and is firmly established on the throne (of authority): He draweth the night as a veil o'er the day, each seeking the other in rapid succession: He created the sun, the moon, and the stars, (all) governed by laws under His command. Is it not His to create and to govern? Blessed be Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds! [Al A´raf 7:54]

Indeed there is a sign in all this for those who reflect. Different kinds of miracles have been discovered in the quran - and Allah knows best - recently, such as the formation of the mountains. Professor Emeritus Frank Press. He was the Science Advisor to former US President Jimmy Carter, and for 12 years was the President of the National Academy of Sciences, Washington, DC says in his book entitled "earth" that mountains have underlying roots. These roots are deeply embedded in the ground, thus, mountains have a shape like a peg. See the picture below

http://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-1-b-img2-big.jpg
Allah(may he be exalted) says(interpretation of the meaning):

Have We not made the earth as a bed
And the mountains as pegs
[Naba 78: 6-7]

Further more the mountains hold the earth stable and keep it from shaking.
Allah(may he be exalted) says(interpretation of the meaning):

And He has driven firm standing mountains into the earth, lest it should shake with you; and rivers and roads, that you may guide yourselves. [Nahl 16:15]

There are other things like this which I will mention some other time inshallah(If Allah wants to) but right now it´s soon time for the call of prayer.

Allah(may he be exalted) says(interpretation of the meaning):
Is then He, Who creates, the same as one who does not create Will you not then reflect)
[Nahl 16:17]

[brothwood]

Yes. The Bible states the facts while the koran is one big fairy tale.
the bible states facts, are you kidding me? The Bible is a book of lies, and those original lies contradict each other and change through chinese whispers during the years. Many of the lies of the powers of God have being misproved such as the World creation and that we are made in Gods form which also has being proved we were not. How shallow and un-educated do you have to be to believe a Book can tell you how to live. God is a dictator if he/she/it is real at all

[tom]

Many of the lies of the powers of God have been misproved such as the World creation and that we are made in Gods form which also has being proved we were not.
Pick one and explain

[brothwood]

Pick one and explain
"the world was created in 7 days"- misproved because the world was around billions of years before humans so it could not happen all in 7 days.

"Noahs Ark"- Were all of human beings wiped out besides noah and his animal friends. There is no proof at all that this occured.

"Jesus died for all human sins/ everythink happensfor a reason in teh eyes of God"- so is tyhere a possible way we can go to hell if it is all happening because God wants it to and loves us all
please ask if your would like me to continue

[brothwood]

and please don't respond by some stupid answer such as these are symbolic, becasue all of the Bible is symbolic and all made up stories to control us by a dictator you call God

[Christian]

I have the belife that jesus was the messiah and muhammad was a prophet.

[brothwood]

I have the belife that jesus was the messiah and muhammad was a prophet.Are you serious or just trying to wind me up?
Jesus and Muhammad were very different and had very different beliefs so they couldn't of both came from the same "God". As much as I belief Jesus was a bored carpenter who wanted to create a bit of trouble, he had some good ideas if he did say what they claim he said. Muhmmad believed in fighting with other religions whilst Jesus quote- "Put your sword away. Those who will take the sword will die by the sword."

[Christian]

The Quran speaks about tolerance of the three faiths.

[Kharakov]

Many of the lies of the powers of God have being misproved such as the World creation and that we are made in Gods form which also has being proved we were not. Really? God wouldn't create you with a similar form to educate you and make you feel comfortable in God's presence?
How shallow and un-educated do you have to be to believe a Book can tell you how to live. God is a dictator if he/she/it is real at allWhere have you gained your knowledge? Do you gain your knowledge from the world around you which includes a multitude of sources of information? One of which could be a certain book that describes a perspective of life higher than the mere physical manifestation of reality.

Everyone starts out with a physical understanding of the universe, your spiritual understanding comes at a later point in life when you are ready for it. The bible is probably one of the easiest methods of gaining a better understanding of the fundamental spiritual realities of our universe. Maybe the koran would be better for you however- every child has slightly different needs because of the unique perspective they have been granted.

[Cloudminerva]

I believe the Bible and the Quar'an contain words of God. I do believe that certain aspects of the Bible have been tampered with because there are a few misenterpretations and contradictions that I have found listening to my families own preacher. I also believe that certain aspects of the Quaran might be in the same condition and that certain truths have been lost forever because of misenterpretation and the many books of the Bible that were thrown away becuase of their "radical"nature. I believe in Jesus and I also believe that Allah is my God...different names but same God and same spirit. The Quaran speaks highly of Jesus anyway.


Ben.

[xdianax]

For those of you who believe in the Bible and/or Qur'an, does your belief in these pieces of literature influence your feelings about Evolution and other Scientific theories?



:) Namaste,

Diana

[brothwood]

Really? God wouldn't create you with a similar form to educate you and make you feel comfortable in God's presence?
Where have you gained your knowledge? Do you gain your knowledge from the world around you which includes a multitude of sources of information? One of which could be a certain book that describes a perspective of life higher than the mere physical manifestation of reality.

Everyone starts out with a physical understanding of the universe, your spiritual understanding comes at a later point in life when you are ready for it. The bible is probably one of the easiest methods of gaining a better understanding of the fundamental spiritual realities of our universe. Maybe the koran would be better for you however- every child has slightly different needs because of the unique perspective they have been granted.
God did not create us in his form because humans have evolved so therefore the very 1st cells that evolved to become animals which eventually became human beings and the image of God surelly, so God has either evoved as well, or he is a single cell! And to be frank, talking about my education is pretty contradictionary because as most of the World knows, America really does pressure the religious scene in many areas on their kids (very free). Could you not fathom for one second to take a step back and look at life with little interference from what others have told you. And further I do not need a book to tell me what to believe, if everyone was truly spiritual they wouldn't need a book as a guide. I trulely believe nothing I could stay could changer your mind with all the years of believing, i am a strong believer in logic, and logic stands that God is not real, and I strongely beleive 100% I am correct. You can't change my view and unfortunately I cann't change yours.

[brothwood]

I was brought up to the belief of equality, freedom and I am so thankful to my parents that I was not pressured into becoming religious because it has gains me knowledge on how religion is opposite equality and freedom. I hate when Christians preechg about freedom and equality when they believe ONE God is setting us rules and if we dont obey we will end up in the fires of HELL! So why aren't more people demanding dictators in these countries instead of overruling them? Please somebody question me, and show me that if God is real than he/she/it is not a dictator by the human definition.

[cabdirazzaq]

What is complete freedom which you speak of, if you do not obey the All knowing and All wise, our lord.

Then seest thou such a one as takes as his god his own vain desire? Allah has, knowing (him as such), left him astray, and sealed his hearing and his heart (and understanding), and put a cover on his sight. Who, then, will guide him after Allah (has withdrawn Guidance)? Will ye not then receive admonition?

I have to go now, I can hear the call for prayer (Im in syria)

[brothwood]

What is complete freedom which you speak of, if you do not obey the All knowing and All wise, our lord.

Then seest thou such a one as takes as his god his own vain desire? Allah has, knowing (him as such), left him astray, and sealed his hearing and his heart (and understanding), and put a cover on his sight. Who, then, will guide him after Allah (has withdrawn Guidance)? Will ye not then receive admonition?

I have to go now, I can hear the call for prayer (Im in syria)
Okay maybe athieists don't have total freedom from the world, but surely when we believe in equality that gives us more freedom to do as we which whilst religion tells people how to live and threatens them if they do not obey, hey sounds familiar! can you imagine what George Bush may do if we discovered God may have being planning to develope weapons of mass destruction

[eat_some_LSD]

I, as an athiest, have the freedom to deem a religion or spiritual set of beliefs based on experiences of things in my life that have bearing on any given situation. Allah can "try" to lead me...but just because he says he does doesn't mean squat to me.

I'm not going to bash you for following an organized religion; Hell, I envy you.

Religion is simply a spiritual "guide" for people who can't differentiate wrong from right by their own choice. These people tend to be, while weak in mind, strong in merit and values. I have no regret when I screw someone over, in fact, I'm happy that I came out on top. ;)

[xdianax]

This is for those who may not have seen my original post:

For those of you who believe in the Bible and/or Qur'an, does your belief in these pieces of literature influence your feelings about Evolution and other Scientific theories?



:) Namaste,

Diana

[brothersun]

They are all "stories" to me. If you want to know God then look at yourself, the stars, and the planet.
Yes i agree one must look at the creation to know and begin and understand the creater.

[Cosmic Butterfly]

Are you serious or just trying to wind me up?
Jesus and Muhammad were very different and had very different beliefs so they couldn't of both came from the same "God". As much as I belief Jesus was a bored carpenter who wanted to create a bit of trouble, he had some good ideas if he did say what they claim he said. Muhmmad believed in fighting with other religions whilst Jesus quote- "Put your sword away. Those who will take the sword will die by the sword."

He is serious. Jesus is a great prophet in Islam. Jesus's name is actually Isa, or Isu. Over time it has been developed to Jesus in the English language. Isa is Jesus and he is the Quran preforming the same miracles. The only difference is that Jesus did not become ressurected. He went to God. Jews dont even recognize Jesus as something great.

[Cosmic Butterfly]

Are you serious or just trying to wind me up?
Jesus and Muhammad were very different and had very different beliefs so they couldn't of both came from the same "God". As much as I belief Jesus was a bored carpenter who wanted to create a bit of trouble, he had some good ideas if he did say what they claim he said. Muhmmad believed in fighting with other religions whilst Jesus quote- "Put your sword away. Those who will take the sword will die by the sword."

I like that quote it is very beautiful. Jesus was such a buddha to me. I wish all those war hawks who claim to be religous lovers of Jesus remember who he was. Got any more Jesus quotes???

[cabdirazzaq]

This is for those who may not have seen my original post:

For those of you who believe in the Bible and/or Qur'an, does your belief in these pieces of literature influence your feelings about Evolution and other Scientific theories?



:) Namaste,

Diana
As long as nothing of it oppose any of my believes I would not deny it as a lie but if it does go against islamic teachings such as to say that we were once apes I refuse to accept it.

Allah(may he be exalted) does not need us to fight enemies, infact he doesnt need us at all.

O ye men! It is ye that have need of Allah: but Allah is the One Free of all wants, worthy of all praise.Quran: [35.15]

But he tries us and most people doesn´t know this.

And if Allah willed He could have punished them (without you) but (thus it is ordained) that He may try some of you by means of others.... [Quran: 47.4]

1. Blessed be He in Whose hands is Dominion; and He over all things hath Power;-
2. He Who created Death and Life, that He may try which of you is best in deed: and He is the Exalted in Might, Oft-Forgiving;-
[Quran 67]

[xdianax]

As long as nothing of it oppose any of my believes I would not deny it as a lie but if it does go against islamic teachings such as to say that we were once apes I refuse to accept it.

Haha, actually I had the Theory of Evolution in mind when I said "Scientific Theories". So you really deny all the evidence that supports the theory of evolution? I don't think that coming from apes is a bad/negative thing; :) I think it's very humbling, and helps me remember to try not to harm other organisms (including bugs!).

It seems like when you say apes, you think that's a bad thing. :H apes seem pretty cool to me

:) Namaste,

Diana

[cabdirazzaq]

I do not deny every part of it but only that which refutes my beliefs. These scientific theories can be divided into different groups.

For example:

1. Those which I refuse to believe because of opposing views from Quran and Hadith.

Such as the idea that man went through a long line of evolution, once being a bacteria, once a fish, ape or what ever.

2. Those which I do accept as truth because of reason or because of proof from Quran and Hadith.

Such as the statement that the heavens and the earth was once one structure and that it later separated and that water is a source for life.

Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were joined together as one united piece, then We parted them And We have made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe
[quran 21.30]

3. Those which I do not know wether they are truth or false.

Such as to say that our nearest star Alfa centauri is 4.3 light years away.


Now let me ask you, how does these theories about evolution go together with your beliefs, and how does the existance of a Creator fit in to your beliefs, do you not see?

For surely it is not the eyes that are blind, but blind are the hearts which are in the breasts [quran 22.46]

I mean do you really believe that the wind, trees, the sun and the moon, all these creatures are all created by chance.

And We created not the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them, in play. [Quran 44.38]

Do you really disbelieve in the resurrection, the day of justice and judgement, do you believe that this is the end or do you believe in karma?

And he makes comparisons for Us, and forgets his own (origin and) Creation: He says, "Who can give life to (dry) bones and decomposed ones (at that)?"

Say, "He will give them life Who created them for the first time! for He is Well-versed in every kind of creation!-
[Quran 36.78-79]


And finally how is buddhism fitting you, tell me about negatives, postitives and such things?

[xdianax]

I do not deny every part of it but only that which refutes my beliefs. These scientific theories can be divided into different groups.

For example:

1. Those which I refuse to believe because of opposing views from Quran and Hadith.

Such as the idea that man went through a long line of evolution, once being a bacteria, once a fish, ape or what ever.

2. Those which I do accept as truth because of reason or because of proof from Quran and Hadith.

Such as the statement that the heavens and the earth was once one structure and that it later separated and that water is a source for life.

Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were joined together as one united piece, then We parted them And We have made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe
[quran 21.30]

Well, :D technically that can be seen as to agree with the Theory of Evolution. In the theory it is believed that our origin, and the origin of all life on Earth came from the water. The first living organisms lived in the ocean, and all life technically originated from the water.

Now let me ask you, how does these theories about evolution go together with your beliefs, and how does the existance of a Creator fit in to your beliefs, do you not see?

For surely it is not the eyes that are blind, but blind are the hearts which are in the breasts [quran 22.46]

I mean do you really believe that the wind, trees, the sun and the moon, all these creatures are all created by chance.

Hmm, well I try to base my opinions around things that agree with my own logical reasoning. So, in terms of Evolution, I believe in Natural Selection and the Theory of Evolution, because my Biology teacher showed us all of the evidence, and evolution seems to make sense. However, I don't think this necessarily means that asll living things were created by chance. If I was dedicated to a monothiestic religion, I would probably still think that God could have simply caused the beginnings of life, letting it evolve on its own, knowing what would happen over billions of years.
For me personally, I have no problem accepting the possibility that my existence is based on chance. Although it would be nice to know that I was specially created, I really am indifferent to either possibility. To me, it isn't all that important.

And We created not the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them, in play. [Quran 44.38]

Do you really disbelieve in the resurrection, the day of justice and judgement, do you believe that this is the end or do you believe in karma?

Well from what I have heard, Jesus was a really cool guy. I don't really believe in the resurrection or a day of judgement. If I will come to be judged, then, haha, I will just say to God that I am sorry and accept Heaven or Purgatory or Hell.
It's interesting, because before I even got into Buddhism, I remember thinking about reincarnation and accepting/believing in it. It was an eerie coincidence that Buddhism had the same beliefs on it that I already had (kinda). I thought that I would die, and be born as another person or living thing, in the past or future, although I wouldn't remember myself or my characteristics, basically "I" would be born a totally different person.
I don't know if I believe in karma, I am kind of undecided on it. I do feel a sense of shame when I think ill things because of its effects on the rest of this life, but not really because of its effect on other lifetimes.

And he makes comparisons for Us, and forgets his own (origin and) Creation: He says, "Who can give life to (dry) bones and decomposed ones (at that)?"

Say, "He will give them life Who created them for the first time! for He is Well-versed in every kind of creation!-
[Quran 36.78-79]


And finally how is buddhism fitting you, tell me about negatives, postitives and such things?

Buddhism has been going pretty well with me actually, thanks for asking :) I find that I agree with a lot of its teachings already. To me the four noble truths were something I always knew about (well the first two anyway). I mean since I was 11 I have believed that in human life we are always suffering, and it is because we have this unquenchible thirst. I couldn't believe the noble truths said the same thing as I had already thought.

I think the positives are that I get to read and learn about a lot of things that agree with my beliefs, and on the forums there are so many great people that I can connect with, and who all are compassionate. I enjoy a lot of the practices (e.i. meditation, yoga, debate) as well. Many of the things I have come to read since I have become Buddhist have been extremely eye-opening, and provide wonderful insight. The idea of becoming a more compassionate person is heartwarming to me.

Some of the negatives are that because I don't know anyone else in my area who is Buddhist, and I dont have a temple or Buddhist school to go to, I am isolated, and it is extremely hard to persue the religion without a friend or teacher around. Also, sometimes I find that I like a structured life (for example, I find that I like Islam's 5 prayers a day), and for me Buddhism doesn't really provide that. I mean I know that I should meditate and chant, but because I am isolated, and I have so much free time, I end up procrastinating, and have trouble keeping up on meditation.

I love Buddhism, but I would love even more if I had a friend or someone to practice with.

:) Namaste,

Diana

[xdianax]

Now that I have shared my thoughts, I would be delighted if you would respond to the same question. How is Islam going for you? Are there any particular likes or dislikes you have about the religion?

:) In kindness,

Diana

[cabdirazzaq]

Well lets see.. A small biography then

When I was younger, I didn´t care the least about religion or about my behaviour to others, I was extremly self deluded and boastful and I use to love killing my time whatching tv. That´s acually how I learned english but as I was growing up I started thinking that there must be more to life other than killing your time around a tv or with friends, this was around the time I was 14 years old(around the time you started thinking about religion too, right?) . My parents are both muslim and I my self soon started practising the religion and found it relaxing.


Verily, in the remembrance of Allah do hearts find rest." (Ar-Ra'd/28)


It changed my life completly, because now I started thinking in terms of religion, I started loving that which I was supposed to love and hating that which I was supposed to hate but I was and am still happy with it. It also changed my poor grades, I went from D to A in 4 subjects and my personality changed, I became alot more quit and shy. I can´t until this day stand 2feet next to a girl without shaking or blushing. I can´t say I´ve found any negatives in my religion but alot from muslims who do not follow islamic teaching and then spread alot of wrong in the world. Muslim nation has alot of problem facing it but Allah(may he be exalted) is its protecter.

Their intention is to extinguish Allah's Light (by blowing) with their mouths: But Allah will complete (the revelation of) His Light, even though the Unbelievers may detest (it). [Quran 61.8]

The religon of Abraham(peace be upon him) the true and straight way.

Abraham was not a Jew nor yet a Christian; but he was true in Faith, and bowed his will to Allah's (Which is Islam), and he joined not gods with Allah [Quran 3.67]

[sylvanlightning]

So perception rotates
the idea of evolution
this human centered constriction.

Tuning in our intent,
to a sliver of the spectrum,
we become spiky knobs.

Drawn to the finite abstraction,
we breed anger, fear and suffering,
with the artistry of emotional splintering.

Beyond this illusion
a dragonfly remembers
our primordial hoary species.

Frequencies beyond ultraviolet sounds
are reached by freeing the energy body
stagnating in these Archetypical ideas.

Offering oblations of clarity
by clearing the structure
of these transparent wind webs.

Grow spiral horns of power
while consideration, compassion and dualism
guide you falling like a snow storm of runes.

Azure plains of beyond...
Gliding along this elliptical mirrored path
winding me into myself.

Revolving on...
earth: soul listening linking
glimpse inside insight.

Elemental tidal dancing...
embracing rooting;
sun nimbus; galaxy nucleus; universe cupola.

Luminous egg pulsing.
Bursting without self-reflection.
Balance searing frozen densities.

A grouping of our senses
intermixes the minds texture
as drifting vapory recursion.

He opens as intuition to the sparkling void,
where appearance dissolving,
leaves but dissolution.

Rainbow library storehouses,
housing gem tablets of emerald alchemy
and dravidian ruby...

Point to the trinity cross section,
as means for rose transmutation,
in the life soil of the gardens breast.

United dragon currents weaving this body of void,
from the space within your atoms,
around these my children you call stars.

Expand beyond the river of not,
containing your conception of limits,
on the bridge of equality.

The One Self will
reunite you with
the myriad facets of the Infinite.

[sylvanlightning]

Yes, vague and distant was the poem entry. ...perhaps a book quote is not orthodox commentary either... "The Last Barrier" by Reshad Feild pgs 20-21

"Once there was a rose bush. It was carefully planted so that the roots grew deep in the soil that had long been prepared to receive it. These roots were Abraham. As the rose grew it was necessary that it be correctly pruned, otherwise it would eventually go wild and would not fulfil the intention that the gardener had for it. The stem, through the good earth, the deep roots, and the prunning, was straight and strong. That stem was Moses. One day the most perfect rose that had ever been seen appeared in bud. That bud was Jesus. The bud opened; that bloom was Muhammed."

The Sheikh paused, and turned and spoke to his wife. She left the room and returned with a small glass phial. He pointed to me and she came across the room to stand in front of me. "Take it," he said, "and tell me what it is." I took the phial in my hand and smelled it. "It is rosewater," I replied. "Attar of roses. It is the essence of the rose."

The Sheikh smiled and beckoned me to come and sit in front of him. His presence was overwhelming. He took my hand in his. "Listen to me carefully and on your journey remember what I have to tell you. Now mankind needs the smell of the rose. One day he will not even need that."

Then he bent forward and kissed my hands, raising them together to his forehead. Putting his right hand over my head, he blew out into the room: "Huuuuuu."

[Rhythmdevil]

Yes. The Bible states the facts while the koran is one big fairy tale.
The sad truth is that all religious texts whether they are Islamic, Christian, or even Buddhist and Hindu are all interpretations over hundreds of years in dozens of different languages, some of which don't even exist anymore. To take any religious text as the "true Word of God", in my opinion, is a very risky action. For most people it is perfectly fine, and I have no problem with it. But just remember this, the world was considered FLAT for thousands of years, and THAT was a fact for a REALLY long time....

[Rhythmdevil]

[QUOTE=Jews dont even recognize Jesus as something great.[/QUOTE]
Ummm, actually many Jews regard Him as a very important prophet...

[Brocktoon]

The sad truth is that all religious texts whether they are Islamic, Christian, or even Buddhist and Hindu are all interpretations over hundreds of years in dozens of different languages, some of which don't even exist anymore.
Your assertion is not a 'Sad Truth' or even a ' Whole Truth'.

For Starters... Islams Scriptures were written in Arabic and are still read in Arabic.
Cabdirazz reads Arabic... the language the Koran is and was written in.
Buddhism,
Hinduism
Christian Scriptures are all very different histories. Since I know about Christianity I will try and correct your unfounded assertion.

Now, The original Gospels and Epistles were most likely written in Aramaic and Greek.
I know this surprised people but its actually NOT some 'Mystical Science' to translate Greek into English.
People follow rules and simply translate.

They DO NOT TRANSLATE 'OVER HUNDREDS OF YEARS' (whatever you think that is supposed to mean?)

Suppose you want to make an English Translation tomorrow.
You can take Greek Copies (circa 300 AD) and simply begin translating them.

Why is this 'Sad'?

Latin is no longer an official language.
This DOES NOT mean we 'dont know what it means anymore'.
Scholars take Jeromes Latin Vulgate and simply translate it into English.

Nothing 'Sad' about it.

To take any religious text as the "true Word of God", in my opinion, is a very risky action. For most people it is perfectly fine, and I have no problem with it.
I dont see it being a 'very risky action' if you are willing to carefully examine and test the Sciptures with a well intentioned heart.

In any case, thanks for not having a problem with it. (although it seems you DO have a problem with it?)

But just remember this, the world was considered FLAT for thousands of years, and THAT was a fact for a REALLY long time....
NO!
For the 43000th Time in these forums - NO.
The world was NOT CONSIDERED FLAT.

THis is a myth.

Romans (for ONE example) were entirely aware the Earth was flat.

Arabs (Muslims in Muhummeds Day) were entirely aware the Earth was Round.

In fact, I do not know of ANY ancient culture who believed the earth was flat.

A better example would be .... i.e. For over 100 years people were told and taught that Humans morphed into existance from soup that was hit by lightning.
This was taught as a 'Fact'.

in any case, .. Please get off this 'Flat Earth' myth.

;)

[cabdirazzaq]

Your assertion is not a 'Sad Truth' or even a ' Whole

In fact, I do not know of ANY ancient culture who believed the earth was flat.
,
Isn't that quite daring to say...

[Brocktoon]

There may be some cultures that did believe the Earth was flat.

I honestly do not know of any?

Do you?

It seems to me this belief of a ''Flat Earth' has more to do with presumptions of commoners or perhaps 'artistic maps'.

Take the Roman Scholars for an example - Not only were they perfectly aware the Earth was round,, they had even calculated the circumference with reasonable accuracy and even theorised there must be some land on the other side (Now we know the America's are there).

Cabdiraz.. you should know your Arab history. Mohammeds world boasted some of the most skilled Doctors, Astronomers and Scientists in the ancient world.

[cabdirazzaq]

Cabdiraz.. you should know your Arab history. Mohammeds world boasted some of the most skilled Doctors, Astronomers and Scientists in the ancient world.
I am familiar with that but I was just suprised of hearing of the fact that romans knew the world was round, they learn you quite different in school.

[Brocktoon]

For Aristotle, the Earth was round. So it remained for perhaps 1,000 years. Aristarchus of Samos (310-250) measured the size and distance of the Moon and Sun. He also placed the Earth in orbit around the sun. Archimedes of Syracuse (280-212) argued against this on the soundest of principles: parallax. If Earth orbits the sun, then there should be an apparent shift in position of the stars relative to the sun and this had not been observed. Archimedes did not deny that earth is a sphere. Eratostenes of Cyrene (275-194) measured the circumference of the Earth by comparing shadows on the first day of summer.

I wouldnt be surprised if there were plenty of uneducated people with their own theories, but to the best of my knowledge - most all cultures have known the Earth was round or Spherical.
Im pretty sure the Babylonians knew the Earth was Round.

We know some Romans were trying to calculate the circumferance of the Earth too.
They were underestimating it but had the right idea.

Often this 'Flat Earth' story is based on a Myth that Christopher Columbus somehow 'Defied' the Church and proved the Earth was Round.
This is a fake propaganda story designed to validate 'atheism'.

Christopher Columbus was so aware the Earth was round (and it was not even a question to anyone anyway) - he WAS GOING WEST TO INDIA.

Cabdirazz... Im not surprised at your school.
Your School undoubtedly taught you that the Islamic world became the centre of all skill and knowledge after Mohammed.
;)

Honestly, when is the Islamic world going to discover, invent or produce ANYTHING??

[Rhythmdevil]

Honestly, when is the Islamic world going to discover, invent or produce ANYTHING??

I can think of all the art and architecture that exists all over the world. Does that count as producing something worthwhile? And if not, then what's so different about their work and Christian and Jewish works?

[Brocktoon]

I can think of all the art and architecture that exists all over the world. Does that count as producing something worthwhile? And if not, then what's so different about their work and Christian and Jewish works?
I really do not think of Art and Architecture all over the world.

Of course, you really expect to see SOME contributions from the Islamic world.
Islamic Websites like to list a series of ancient mathematics and physics discoveries made by ancient Islamic scholars.

They dont say much about how these scholars derived most of their scientific knowledge from the Greek and Persian libraries the Mohammedans took over (usually after killing anyone standing in their way)

But dont worry about that... lets look at our modern age.

[and believe me Im NOT talking about 'hit movies' and 'cola' either]

Asians have contributed astonishing amounts to civilisation.
Technology for starters!
But Asian countries have produced astonishing SELF accomplishments in skilled work-forces, mathematicians, scientists and tremendous artistic influence.
Marital Arts have swept the planet as both 'sport' but also as ways and means of health and meditation.

European cultures have changed the very way of life on the planet with industrial innovation, scientific enlightenment and maybe most notably - transversing the globe in discovery of other cultures.

Believe me... Im not saying all these things have gone unabused either. Im just saying they produce new ideas, new products, new discoveries.

Now lets take a trip over to the Middle-East. The 'Islamic World'.
Try and find new medicines or medical procedures that are NOT from 'Western Cultures'?
Try and find automobiles, planes or trains that are NOT from Western or Asian Cultures?
Try and find a world acclaimed sport brought to us by the Islamic world?
Heck! You would think Islam would be known for a 'AK47' or a 'Beretta' or some kind of weaponry??

Really.. your hard-pressed to find anything 'Islam born' that is of any signifigant acceptance or influence on society.

Even OIL discovery and production is credited to Western nations!

Dont get me wrong.. there are a few.
Hashish has definately influenced the world.
Ok.. Scimitars are pretty cool unfortunately Islamofascists use kitchen knifes to slit innocent civilians throats open.

How about Literature?
Meh.. Salmon Rushdie is a great writer.. but unfortunately the Islamic world banished the one heralded Islamic writer they have.

OH wait.. Circumcision!

That was wildly popular in the United States and Canada and many parts of Africa and the Fillipines [Americans still love it!]
Female Circumcision never really caught on outside the Middle East but did make some great inroads into Africa!

Mind you.. Male foreskin amputation in the USA is more directly attributed to Judaism, so that doesnt really qualify as an 'Islamic Invention' I guess.

How about Architecture?

Yes, Mosques are beautiful and the 'Dome' structures are renowned around the world.
Unfortunately they are not exactly 'influencing' the architectural world and no one is really looking to emulate or learn from the designs.
(And the Romans perfected Dome structures anyway)

I gotta tell ya.. I had a 'Donair' and some 'Baklavash' (sp?) and they were AWESOME!

And nothing will beat my favourite of all favourite treats ... Halvah in a Can.
[If you dont know.. i suggest you find out.. its sweet pureed sesame paste - and its delicious!]

[Jedi]

A muslim is one who submits, who gives him self over just like a slave would do, if you for example translate my name it would be something like: slave[servant]to the Provider which means that I shoul do as my lord commands without ever doubting his words.

2.285: ... Each one (of them) believeth in Allah, His angels, His books, and His messengers. "We make no distinction (they say) between one and another of His messengers." And they say: "We hear, and we obey: (We seek) Thy forgiveness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys."
Salam!,
It is very nice to see that you consider yourself the servant of Allah!, indeed we all are slaves of Allah whether we believe it or not. We live because of his mercy , we die because of his mercy, if we do anything it is because of his mercy, He is the ultimate end, He is the light at the end of the tunnel. He is life, He is death. He is Allah , the all powerful lord of this universe and beyond. May he bless you and me with all the virtues of a good soul. May he shine in our hearts always and take us to his paradise at the end! :)

[xdianax]

Salam!,
It is very nice to see that you consider yourself the servant of Allah!, indeed we all are slaves of Allah whether we believe it or not. We live because of his mercy , we die because of his mercy, if we do anything it is because of his mercy, He is the ultimate end, He is the light at the end of the tunnel. He is life, He is death. He is Allah , the all powerful lord of this universe and beyond. May he bless you and me with all the virtues of a good soul. May he shine in our hearts always and take us to his paradise at the end! :)

That post was beautiful :)

Namaste,

Diana

[Jedi]

That post was beautiful :)

Namaste,

DianaOh thanks :D

[BlackGuardXIII]

Where is Algebra from? don't answer toon or sg. where did the architects of the 200 plus gothic cathedral throughout europe get the 'gothic' style from? same: toon or sg, zip! When europe was using roman numerals, and therefore could not even do algebra, where did they get the books that had zero in them. (no zero in roman numerals)? The concept was hard for them to grasp, there was resistance to this new "non number". If it is nothing, how could it be a number? Where does the finest linen come from, the finest rugs? I will give a clue, where does Damask come from? bt n sg, still don't reply, please, cuz you both have already said clearly where they could not be from, cuz they hadn't contributed anything. Where does alcohol come from? How about Abraham, the patriarch of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.....where is he from?


All from the place these eurocentric, ethnically challenged, deaf members said nothing notable came from. Their own european heritage owes much to Arabia. As does astronomy, since


In response to the 'they got it from Greece' rebuttal, which is possibly true I must ask a few more things. Where did the great minds of Greece like Pythagoras, Plato, Herodotus, and so many more, state was the source of their science skills?
Trick question, not Arabia.

I will wait till another member posts the answer to those ones.


stan grossmanQuote:
Originally Posted by Brocktoon
Honestly, when is the Islamic world going to discover, invent or produce ANYTHING??


i agree...plus the koran is made up by mohammed to promote his warfaring propaganda


Brocktoon and Stan, you're views are crystal clear, and a tad ignorant, in my view, to be very generous.

Hence my desire to be spared your reversal, excuse, reason, whatever, cuz your answer is right there, above ^^^^

[Brocktoon]

So really the only thing we have from you DarkGuard is this 'Number Zero' thing.
[which somehow you now believe means ALL algebra, math and physics becomes attributed to Islam?]

That and the fact that some Architectural techniques were gathered from Mosques.

Personally.. I see a lot of evidence the ancient Persians and Arabs were perfectly great contributors to the world.

Since Islam has taken over - I dont see much really?

Especially in the last 200 years.. when almost everywhere else (and especially the European world) was revolutionising the planet with discoveries, new science and technological innovations, manufacturing etc...

.. What the heck came from the Islamic world?

Someone actually took inventory on everything Osama Bin Laudens Al Quaida used to work and attack the USA...
Almost EVERY single item, technique and service they used, from Jeeps, Motorola Cell Phones, Weapons, Printers, Faxes, Internet, to Transportation and including Airplanes were ALL Western Inventions!

Now watch.. because this is important.....

in the MIND OF THE ISLAMOFASCISTS... THEY are supposed to be the ones blessed and rewarded by Allah!

To THEIR MIND.. Allah is supposed to be rewarding THEM and the West is NOT to be blessed by Allah..

[pay attention here BlackG]

So.. 'Therefore' (in Their minds)... whats the explanation?

Western technology, medicine, innovations etc MUST THEREFORE BE ANTI-ALLAH

Right?

So 'Therefore' rejecting manufacturing, modern technology, modern architecture and anything 'Western' IS GOOD!

You are helping to carry out Allahs will!

After all... if these things were good, then they would have come from Islam and not Satans 'Christendom' right?

Now do you get it BlackG?

[BlackGuardXIII]

Brocktoon, hahahahahah



all we have is the zero,


ya



no big deal huh?



did you even go to school?

[BlackGuardXIII]

So really the only thing we have from you DarkGuard is this 'Number Zero' thing.
[which somehow you now believe means ALL algebra, math and physics becomes attributed to Islam?]

That and the fact that some Architectural techniques were gathered from Mosques.

Personally.. I see a lot of evidence the ancient Persians and Arabs were perfectly great contributors to the world.

Since Islam has taken over - I dont see much really?

Especially in the last 200 years.. when almost everywhere else (and especially the European world) was revolutionising the planet with discoveries, new science and technological innovations, manufacturing etc...

.. What the heck came from the Islamic world?

Someone actually took inventory on everything Osama Bin Laudens Al Quaida used to work and attack the USA...
Almost EVERY single item, technique and service they used, from Jeeps, Motorola Cell Phones, Weapons, Printers, Faxes, Internet, to Transportation and including Airplanes were ALL Western Inventions!

Now watch.. because this is important.....

in the MIND OF THE ISLAMOFASCISTS... THEY are supposed to be the ones blessed and rewarded by Allah!

To THEIR MIND.. Allah is supposed to be rewarding THEM and the West is NOT to be blessed by Allah..

[pay attention here BlackG]

So.. 'Therefore' (in Their minds)... whats the explanation?

Western technology, medicine, innovations etc MUST THEREFORE BE ANTI-ALLAH

Right?

So 'Therefore' rejecting manufacturing, modern technology, modern architecture and anything 'Western' IS GOOD!

You are helping to carry out Allahs will!

After all... if these things were good, then they would have come from Islam and not Satans 'Christendom' right?

Now do you get it BlackG?

I think so......let me take a shot.


You are a satan worshipper?

[BlackGuardXIII]

the way i see

the qur'an is a word of god, a dark god, like satan

the word jihad is false prophecy

i am against it

i honor all religions except ones that promote violence
'Allah loveth not the aggressor.'


hey mike, have ya read it?
guess where i found this quote?

[Brocktoon]

BlackyG.. It would be more helpful if you contributed some new idea or comments, instead of poorly delivered attempts at rhetorical insults.

Thanks

[cabdirazzaq]

For Aristotle, the Earth was round. So it remained for perhaps 1,000 years. Aristarchus of Samos (310-250) measured the size and distance of the Moon and Sun. He also placed the Earth in orbit around the sun. Archimedes of Syracuse (280-212) argued against this on the soundest of principles: parallax. If Earth orbits the sun, then there should be an apparent shift in position of the stars relative to the sun and this had not been observed. Archimedes did not deny that earth is a sphere. Eratostenes of Cyrene (275-194) measured the circumference of the Earth by comparing shadows on the first day of summer.

I wouldnt be surprised if there were plenty of uneducated people with their own theories, but to the best of my knowledge - most all cultures have known the Earth was round or Spherical.
Im pretty sure the Babylonians knew the Earth was Round.

We know some Romans were trying to calculate the circumferance of the Earth too.
They were underestimating it but had the right idea.

Often this 'Flat Earth' story is based on a Myth that Christopher Columbus somehow 'Defied' the Church and proved the Earth was Round.
This is a fake propaganda story designed to validate 'atheism'.

Christopher Columbus was so aware the Earth was round (and it was not even a question to anyone anyway) - he WAS GOING WEST TO INDIA.

Cabdirazz... Im not surprised at your school.
Your School undoubtedly taught you that the Islamic world became the centre of all skill and knowledge after Mohammed.
;)

Honestly, when is the Islamic world going to discover, invent or produce ANYTHING??"My school" is an ordinary non private, non islamic school in Sweden so why bother to teach us what you just mentioned?
And it is true, the islamic world was the center of all science for a couple of hundred years ago, arabic was used similiar to the english language today. If it wouldn't have been because of the arabs progress in medicine, math, chemistry and atronomy I don't think the world would look the way it does today. There is this [funny] story that happend somewhere in Europe around this particular episode. Some europians had asked an arab doctor to come and see a patient wich had some injury on his leg, so this doctor started treating his patient and then a french soldier I believe came in and said: Do you want to die with two legs or live with one and he drew his sword and started smashing, cutting, slashing, striking and choping this leg until blood sprinkled everywhere and the person died and the stunned arab said something like: Here we have christan knowledge of medicine"

WHY? Why should their be such a great need to produce or invent all these things? The distinction between you and me is that for any normal secular being like you Mr Brocktoon this world is your abode, an englishmans house is his castle it was said while It wouldn't hurt me to be extremly poor or live under hard circumstances because this is not my home, I see this world as nothing more than a short brake lasting a minute or two until the department to the herafter starts, small restricted pleasure. Now when I come to think of it, If I would become poor than I would only concider this a test and move on, it's better to be without any money then to be rich and greedy anway. If anyone would provoke me, hit me, imprison me I would only greet it with a smile and If these people would go to the extent of killing me in a horrfying way such as feeding me to the sharks or something they would only make me a martyr, how excellent!

13.26. Allah increases the provision for whom He wills, and straitens (it for whom He wills), and they rejoice in the life of the world, whereas the life of this world compared to the Hereafter is but a brief passing enjoyment.

[cabdirazzaq]

most other religions are more concise and beautiful
and there people don't abuse women and children with such aggression
This Michael is taken from the bible:

"Now kill all the boys . And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man." 31:17-18

The Rabbis says as is also written in the Talmud about this verse, christians may see it different: Said Rabbi Joseph, "Come and take note: A girl three years and one day old is betrothed by intercourse.

Now for the words taken from narrations from the prophet(may peace and blessing be upon him): Do not kill any old person, any child or any woman" (Abu Dawud)

And from the Quran(interpretation of the meaning):

5.8. O you who believe! Stand out firmly for Allah as just witnesses; and let not the enmity and hatred of others make you avoid justice.

Extremly cowardly of you to speak about a matter which you know nothing about.

[Brocktoon]

Cab.. simply amazing how you avoided every answer and even managed to disguise a blatant insult as some lesson.

Please consider the following:

The Islamic world was NOT the centre of Scientific knowledge anytime in the history of the planet.
This is simply not true.

Next Point: All you do is tell a story in which the Muslim is clearly intelligent .. and Christendom is stupid and barbaric.

This is Pathetic.
I could simply tell a story in which a certain Priest was visiting Arabia and how Muslims were barbaric and stupid.
Then finish the story with the Priest correcting Islams barbaric ways.

The only lesson conveyed is that someone made up an insulting story which is NOT BASED ON REALITY.

The myth of Islam's Medical wonders is based almost exclusively on one REAL STORY.
Europe became over-run with the Bubonic Plague. The Black Death.

Funny story behind that one for you Cab... Seems some Muslims decided to throw rancid diseased meat at Christians to chase them out of town.. The boatload of Europeans were among the first to develop the Disease...

Anyway.. Turns out, some Islamic Doctors knew how to treat it.
Not a big surprise seeing as they were familiar with the disease since it had already appeared there first.

Of course this is a good thing and even if it was Muslims who deliberately murdered millions of Europeans with the Black Death - Credit to the Muslim Doctors who helped end it!

Now to speak to your last paragraph:

I was not asking for examples of wealth and privilage.
The Islamic world has the wealthiest kings and some of the most astonishing riches and luxuries in the entire world!
There are Sultans who can throw away Mercedes cars when the tires go bald... or buy castles and fill them with 20 wifes.... and some of them bought from the West!

Im talking about helpful and meaningful contributions to civilisation:
Medicines to cure diseases like Polio or SmallPox etc etc.
[I cant think of ANY from Islamic world??]

Transportation like Planes, Trains, Cars
[Not for wealth but for practical and helpful purposes]

Where is the Astronomical Research.. Space Programs.. How about things like RADAR, Earthquake Sciences, Dams, Environmental Discoveries?

What about discovering some Elemenets or Molecular structures?

How about simply innovating new ways to build machinery, The Camera.. the Lightbulb.. Hydromechanics?

Now when we see an EarthQuake hit Iran (One of the most fiercly Islamic of all nations) guess what?

That terrible 'Christendom' rushes in to save peoples lives with what?
Camera's
Lighting,
Heavy Duty Machinery,
Innovative Transportation using Trains, Planes and ..
Medicine.

Dont get me wrong Cabdirazz... I do not happen to believe every culture on Earth must supply an equal share of innovation, science and skill, however - YOU have a dilemma.
Why are these thing all coming from 'Christendom' .. ..or even Pagan Asians?

The Islamic world must explain this.
In fact.. OSama Bin Lauden has the only explanation and really.. he is the one brave enough to live by it.

Since all these things - Machinery, Combustion Engines, Technology, Space Travel, Modern Medicine, Communications ARE from 'Christendom' and NOT from the ISlamic world...
'Therefore"...
These things must be BAD.
Living in the Sand and riding Horses must be GOOD.

Therefore ... Destroying Western Civilisation is GOOD.
Its the Will of Allah?

Either that or the Koran could be wrong... and that will be deemd 'impossible' and not an option to consider.

Am I right?

[GanjaPrince]

Praise be allah


Sufis know where it's at

All books, all writings is god's word, even a pepsi can, silly!



"Sub ek"

All religions are one!

surrender to god is a very very beautiful thing

I do nothing, god does everything!

[Jedi]

This Michael is taken from the bible:

"Now kill all the boys . And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man." 31:17-18

The Rabbis says as is also written in the Talmud about this verse, christians may see it different: Said Rabbi Joseph, "Come and take note: A girl three years and one day old is betrothed by intercourse.

Now for the words taken from narrations from the prophet(may peace and blessing be upon him): Do not kill any old person, any child or any woman" (Abu Dawud)

And from the Quran(interpretation of the meaning):

5.8. O you who believe! Stand out firmly for Allah as just witnesses; and let not the enmity and hatred of others make you avoid justice.

Extremly cowardly of you to speak about a matter which you know nothing about.
You see this is the problem with religion and that is that it makes people think their religion is greater than some one elses... but its not the truth. Try to see the truth and just understand and stop killing yourselves with all the hate that you have for some religion.

The fact remains the same no matter what path we follow, you never know where you are going to go or how you get there , you do think you know where you need to go and you do think you know how to get there. There is a difference between knowing and thinking that you know and a person who does not understand this is a complete idiot.

[Jedi]

is war aggression?
jihad is a word mohammad channeled from somewhere
obviously it wasn't Allah
or maybe Allah is confused
allah loveth not the aggressor?
the world is an aggressor
so allah loveth not the world
all that is fine and dandy by me
i prefer ghandis method
let the world kill you, you just go to heaven
you don't need to murder to stay in the world
i might murder someone if they were killing a family member
the only one who wants to kill my family members are those who hate american
even though i hate america too, i live here as an innocent bystander
a test of accurate prophecy is that it withstands time
jihad may have been cool a hundred years ago
but now it makes no sense, and that means that it was a weak channel
i don't know much about qur'an because all the times i've tried to read it, i've encountered some serious bullshit
most other religions are more concise and beautiful
and there people don't abuse women and children with such aggression
i'm sorry if i intruded on your discussion
i'm not insulting anyone
i honestly believe that satan touched mohammedAhem, I respect your opinion about an entire religion and how you think it is touched by a character which you think represents evil but lets do a mental excercise here shall we?

Lets say you are an 8 year old boy and you live peacefully happy with your mom and dad and everything... and your mom, dad and you go to shoppping one day... and suddenly you hear a BOOM! everyone in the street is getting attacked, there is a big tank that is coming at you and is shooting at anything that is going to move.

So it shoots and kills your mom and dad. It kills everyone that you see on the street. It destroys the buildings and you hide with fear, you see all of this happening in front of you and finally the tankers leave.

They bomb many neighborhoods like this and they destroy almost everything. Now, some guy comes later on after the tanks leave, hugs you and says they are evil , they will kill us ,and tells you that they are killing you guys and only God can protect you and says you have to stop them from killing you for God. He gives you a gun and some bombs , then
1) would you take it and fight for your life?
2) would you sit there and say , no I will die but I won't fight.

I think a common 8 year old will either be scared or be so scarred that he will shoot them yelling "Allah ho akbar"

It doesn't have to do with his religion my friend, it has to do with his will to survive. Is it him or is it the guy who was shooting from the tank that started all this? ... Man breeds violence, Man breeds hatred, some take religion and say that is what is causing it and some say that stupidity is causing it.
It is neither...

It is MAN who causes violence, not religion and it MAN alone who is responsible but does not accept the responsiblity because it is not in his animal instinctive nature to do so.

He is not stupid, he is very intelligent, but never uses his intelligence for humanism, he only uses it for his group, for his nation, for him , for his wife, for his children, to prove his views...

The guy who comes after the tanks is a man, the guy who shot from the tank is a man and the people who died are men! (excuse my use of man--- I mean woman too when I use man).

[xdianax]

Once again, I really enjoyed that post. Jedi your words can be very enlightening. :)

[BlackGuardXIII]

BlackyG.. It would be more helpful if you contributed some new idea or comments, instead of poorly delivered attempts at rhetorical insults.

Thanks
toony, you seem to be the lone member with that view, I get messages thanking me for my contributions daily. I'll work on my replies to you so that my attempts at accurately describing your actions and words is not misconstrued as just rhetoric. If you find being called a pathological liar, bigot, and slanderer insulting, I can see your point. What to do.....maybe I will just have to discipline myself to ignore your attacks on my character, and just accept that you will post fabricated fictional accounts of my posts, and post that I wrote things that I never would write. Zat sound good?

sut sri akal, Ken

[Brocktoon]

BlackGuard... you dont owe me an explanation, but you really should explain your fascinating postion on Egyptians to our Muslim friends in here.

Please explain to them how you think Eqyptians are Africans?

What is your position on Muslim Arabs inventing and perfecting the Slave-Trade of 'Sub Saharin' Africans?

Please explain to the Arabs in here why you think they Superior/Inferior to Germans or Nubians.

I cant wait to sit back and watch you offer your theories to them! :D

[Jedi]

Once again, I really enjoyed that post. Jedi your words can be very enlightening. :)heh, thank you... but you are just too kind. :)

[Brocktoon]

heh, thank you... but you are just too kind. :)
If you two are finished love-slobbering all over each other?