Reasons for nonbelief

[Disarm]

I can so see this thread getting off topic and bitchy, but ill try :P

What are your reasons for not believing in, or being agnostic about, g-d?

I don't think many people actually ask that without trying to convert the person who replies! So yeah. Not why you dislike religion (unless its part of the reason), but purely why you decided g-d does not exist (or skepticism in his existence)

I'll start if ya want.
I'm a bit of an odd one on this, cause I do believe, in a very abstract way, now. I started off being athiest, and I guess I was athiest partly because of my age (young teens).

The main reason is that I didn't (and still don't) feel that I need a reassurance. A lot of people seem to believe in g-d because it's an assurance, they can feel loved, and feel like good people, and I just think if you need a fairytale to make you feel loved perhaps you should work more on who you are then spend time worshipping something... I saw belief as a sign of weakness, and still do in some people. Now I've grown up a bit and realised that not everyone who believes in g-d is a scaredy cat with noone to love them, needing an excuse! I was an athiest because the alternative disgusted me and would make me feel weak.

(I'm not saying that believing in g-d made me strong with his love or any crap like that either. I don't feel weak because I don't believe g-d loves me. Believing to feel loved and not fear tomorrow still disgusts me.)

[GirlInTheGreenGrass]

Hello there. http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif I understand where you are coming from...and I can relate. I've been discusted by many things my whole life...trying to understand people and their reasons. Being athiest, I could see how being discusted would fall along the same lines. Believing there is nothing, I think, in my opinion, is giving up, copping out....but then I think again... Anything is possible.


I'm agnostic.
I believe that anything is possible...because it is... We don't know the answers, and we're still digging for them all over the world. Scrolls, what scrolls? Was god's signature on them.. did it glow from an unexplainable source? No. They are words.. like these are in these forums. They aren't proof. I look outside, did god create all of this? Then why isn't he here suffering or enjoying the earth with us? Does he have other worlds he tends to?? Was this one was not a victory? Did he leave us behind? Why if I 'can't' believe in him, I will suffer and burn and live in a hell for all eternity? I have an open mind...if he created me...he created that as well. I think that he would be a sick god to let those who have pure intentions, live in the dark with demons forever. And those who bowed down to him and repented over and over again, will live like clouds in a heaven that is beyond beautiful...forgetting about the ones who suffer down below. If there is a god, and I'm his creation...I'm ashamed to be that.


I believe that people surround themselves in religion as if though it were a bubble. To protect them from wandering into the unknown...because they'll never find it and if they tried to, they'd just get lost...they'd lose faith...something people need. They leave it up to the scientists, the Pope, Buddah, whatever they will.
People need to believe...they need a beautiful outcome, a place that never ends, because we're people and we have feelings, and we don't want to think that when we die,that's it. Say goodbye to your existance as a human being and say goodbye to that thing you called your spirit, your soul.

I believe that athiests should look around. There is something. Maybe not what you hear them talking about, but there is something, there is a reason for all of this, a cause, a possible higher power. But then again, who knows?


I believe in living. Not for a god, but for myself and for those around me. I believe that the bible has truth, but I'm not sure if it came from this mystical god. I believe and follow some things in the bible, only because there is truth and it applies to love. Whatever, whoever, wrote it, knew what they were talking about hundreds of years ago. I respect them for their intelligence.


I don't believe in bowing down or worshipping something that isn't there. I believe that could be foolish. I believe that I'll die. But I can only 'HOPE' that there's no ending.
<3

[matthew]

I decieded when i thought well the earth is about 4.55 billion years (plus or minus about 1%). We have not been on this planet for 4.55 billion years ..Why should i think God thought mmm i am bored let me populate this tiny planet with human life (and all other 'gods' creatures) . We are a carbon based life form and the amazing thing is we got to were we are now...now aliens giving us a push start, this i can believe.

[GirlInTheGreenGrass]

interesting perspective. Although years of 'evolution' and learning and living to see the outcome of things, changes the next generation. There's a lot going on in our heads...and it keeps getting bigger...more intelligent. We keep evolving...into aliens, hmm..I don't know...maybe. Is that why we are unsatisfied?

[matthew]

interesting perspective. Although years of 'evolution' and learning and living to see the outcome of things, changes the next generation. There's a lot going on in our heads...and it keeps getting bigger...more intelligent. We keep evolving...into aliens, hmm..I don't know...maybe. Is that why we are unsatisfied?
I was half joking with the alien thing, but i can get into that thinking rather than a omni present 'god' .. it makes a lot more sense . Unfortunatly i don't think their is a lot going on in our heads (well that might be just me). We are unsatisfied because this is it and the truth is we can't accept that this is it so we make our lives and 'us' 'special' yeah are heads are getting bigger and bigger.

[Shockw4ve]

There are lots of reasons that I consider myself to be agnostic. I only have the time to touch upon a few of them. I suppose the main reason is an neverending search for truth, which religion fails to provide for me. If something is based on blind faith or falsehoods then I feel that I must reject in because it stands in the way of truth. Forgive me if I focus mainly on the Christian religion. I try my best to be completely respectful of everyone's beliefs, but it is the one that I am most familiar with. Even if I knew without a doubt that there was a creator, I would still choose not to worship him because I know absolutely nothing about him/her/it or what it's motives were for creation. If there is such an all powerful entity as God, then why would it have made the choice to bring evil into the world? In order to create something you must first think about it. If it is a thought that resides in your head, then it is a part of you. Therefore in order to create Satan, God would had to have Evil residing within. If you created a living thing would you would design it to kill and make others suffer? Why would our creator purposely create us to do such things? I can't think of a logical reason. I cannot even begin to force myself to believe that this very massive universe was all created as a distraction for human beings to look at, and that in the end it's all going to boil down to everyone either going to heaven or hell for eternity. I could go on and on about this, but I'll just leave it at that.

[POPthree13]

I agree with what many of you have said. I think at the base of my agnostic beleif is the ultimate search for truth. Even biblical verses enforce the importance of seeking, asking... searching. IMO anyone who speaks as if they have it all figured out is furthest from figuring anything out. Not to say that people do not have wisodm to share, but saying "god is this...", "god wants this...", "god says this...", "god did this..." Frankly it just pisses me off sometimes. People who will beleive something that is told to them without taking any time to research or seek answers for themselves don't have a lot of right to go around telling everyone else how wrong they are.


I am constantly impressed at how little many Christians know about who wrote the bible, who built it, who edited it. Paul's influence - Rome's influence - Pagan influence - Jewish tradition. I am conastaly amazed at how narrowly they can read the scriptures and take only the meanings that they have been taught - without actually thinking for themselves.

The only thing I know is that I don't know. I feel there is a force at work on this planet (anf proabably countless other planets) that can not be explained by scientific logic. Life is simply amazing in my opinion. I think we are a facet of something larger - something you could call god. But without being able to describe that beyond a feeling it can hardly be called a beleif.

[SilverClover14]

I'm agnostic simply because to me, God seems extremely ficticious. For one, the only reason Christianity is so widespread is because Constantine (among other leaders) forced it upon his people. Later, the Catholic Church in the middle ages basically held belief by fear. I can't support anything with a history like that.

The ancient "mythology" used to explain things has long since been dismissed as stories. Personally, I don't see why modern religion is any different. Also, Jesus was considered a cult leader in his time. So was Muhammed (although he was more successful) and other religious founders. In my eyes, religion reminds me of a cult- a crutch to lean on when support is needed and a scapegoat for when things go wrong ("it's not my fault, it's all part of God's plan"). Maybe it's because I live in the deep South that I see it this way with Jerry Falwell and the holy rollers running amok, but it has deeply impressioned my views toward religion.

I think there's some kind of supernatural life force, but not in the form of a god or any watchful being.

[GirlInTheGreenGrass]

Shock
"If it is a thought that resides in your head, then it is a part of you. Therefore in order to create Satan, God would had to have Evil residing within.

This is very true...I've never thought of this..thanks for bringing it to the light.

[Razorofoccam]

I cannot even begin to force myself to believe that this very massive universe was all created as a distraction for human beings to look at, and that in the end it's all going to boil down to everyone either going to heaven or hell for eternity. I could go on and on about this, but I'll just leave it at that.
Shock

Occam agrees

But has learnt a small wisdom. You speak as you do because you , as occam , have a small understanding of the actual size of reality and it's complexity.

This small understanding..Is not a common thing.
He realized this in full at 37 or so when at a restraunt with 8 other people and someone starded talking about black holes
In one of occams greatest moments he spent a hour listening to everyones ideas on what exists beyond the sky...Without offering comment.
One of the hardest things he has ever done :)

Occam

The result was..despair

[Shockw4ve]

I used to think that I was crazy for thinking such things. I remember when these thoughts first started pouring into my head. It was the fear of going to hell that kept me from thinking outside the box. Once I broke the chains that had been wrapped around my mind then I was able to look at things from a unique outside perspective. It was very liberating to say the least.

[Disarm]

In order to create something you must first think about it. If it is a thought that resides in your head, then it is a part of you. Therefore in order to create Satan, God would had to have Evil residing within.
erm..Lucifer (satans actual name, he seems to have a lot) was an angel rebelling against g-d, because they were given free will and because it was rebelling I don't see it as a part of g-d.. either way, he isn't considered evil in the initial literature on him, our interpretation was that it's evil to go against g-d's will. He doesn't guard over hell, or entice people to sin, either. hell was invented faaar later, he was simply banished to the lake of fire (a bit rusty on that, I think he's banished to fall into the lake of fire when the world ends).

Scrolls, what scrolls? Was god's signature on them.. did it glow from an unexplainable source?
:H man that sounds coo

Anyway what I'm kinda worried (worried? maybe not the word for it) about is that people don't separate g-d and religion.. you don't like religion, so you don't like the concept of a g-d.. That's what I'm kinda interested in, cause it's not the same thing and we're always so intent on putting the two together. Like, if I believe in g-d but also believe in science then some may view the science as overruling and thus I am athiest.. It's weird. I guess its because one began the other.

[Shockw4ve]

erm..Lucifer (satans actual name, he seems to have a lot) was an angel rebelling against g-d, because they were given free will and because it was rebelling I don't see it as a part of g-d
If he was created by god (by the way you don't need to censor the word), then god would have also had to instill that rebellion within Satan correct? I don't see how you fail to see it as part of god.

[Razorofoccam]

It's weird. I guess its because one began the other.
Disarm

Which 'begat' the other?

Occam

[Trotsky311]

But has learnt a small wisdom. You speak as you do because you , as occam , have a small understanding of the actual size of reality and it's complexity.

This small understanding..Is not a common thing.
He realized this in full at 37 or so when at a restraunt with 8 other people and someone starded talking about black holes
In one of occams greatest moments he spent a hour listening to everyones ideas on what exists beyond the sky...Without offering comment.
One of the hardest things he has ever done :)

I had astronomy 114 this semester. forcefully rips your eyes open to just how small you are. I think the Hitchhikers guide also has a bit on this subject, as a method of mental torture if i remember correctly, a brief view of the entirety of exsistence, and where you stand in it.

as for why i after 18 years of being raised catholic i became atheist?

there's just no solid proof. it just occured to me one day...that the only reason i belived any of it was because I had been told to. turns out thinking for yourself is dangerous. it'll change ya.

[geckopelli]

No evidence.

[prism]

turns out thinking for yourself is dangerous. it'll change ya.
Great minds think for themselves. :D Power to ya.

[Hikaru Zero]

If he was created by god (by the way you don't need to censor the word), then god would have also had to instill that rebellion within Satan correct? I don't see how you fail to see it as part of god.

Not to defend Christianity here, but ... G-d's "gift" was that of "life," which constitutes "free will." Free will is not determined by God, but by the individual it is given to. And if that individual chooses to rebel, then that is the individual's decision alone.

The way I see it, if G-d and S-t-n exist, they are complete opposites to eachother, and the war is not good versus evil, it's "1" versus "0." G-d, of course, believing that free will is perfection even if it's evil half the time, and S-t-n believing the opposite.

This ought to be taken in the same sense that the universe is considered "perfect" if it attains minimum energy and maximum entropy, a simple chemistry concept that states that the laws of this universe attempt to make every unit of matter/energy completely uniform and repeating in every direction throughout the universe.

That's just my personal idea, though; that does not tie in with Christianity whatsoever. And that's IF G-d and S-t-n exist, which I don't believe they do (in the senses of either word).

[Razorofoccam]

Not to defend Christianity here, but ... G-d's "gift" was that of "life," which constitutes "free will." Free will is not determined by God, but by the individual it is given to. And if that individual chooses to rebel, then that is the individual's decision alone.

The way I see it, if G-d and S-t-n exist, they are complete opposites to eachother, and the war is not good versus evil, it's "1" versus "0." G-d, of course, believing that free will is perfection even if it's evil half the time, and S-t-n believing the opposite.

This ought to be taken in the same sense that the universe is considered "perfect" if it attains minimum energy and maximum entropy, a simple chemistry concept that states that the laws of this universe attempt to make every unit of matter/energy completely uniform and repeating in every direction throughout the universe.

That's just my personal idea, though; that does not tie in with Christianity whatsoever. And that's IF G-d and S-t-n exist, which I don't believe they do (in the senses of either word).
Blackguard

Thus to satan and god...it is all a game.
For satan knows god..being omnipotent..can make satan go away forever.

A silly story...Winnie the pooh is better.
And christopher robin does;nt stove in the heads of his enemies like in the bible. Or send good men to eternal torment.

Any religion that has a hell..automatically disqualifies itself in reality.
For hell is gratuitous torture...[forever]

And no natural law is gratuitous.

Occam


Occam

[BlackGuardXIII]

Blackguard

Thus to satan and god...it is all a game.
For satan knows god..being omnipotent..can make satan go away forever.

A silly story...Winnie the pooh is better.
And christopher robin does;nt stove in the heads of his enemies like in the bible. Or send good men to eternal torment.

Any religion that has a hell..automatically disqualifies itself in reality.
For hell is gratuitous torture...[forever]

And no natural law is gratuitous.

Occam



Occam
So my and Hikky's plan to assassinate Satan is a no go? Ah well, that explains why my 20 years of taunting and deriding Satan as being a coward, to chicken to face me has not worked.

Seriously, I came to the same conclusion re endless gratuitous torture when I was eleven.
I can't see the Dalai Lama going to hell, that is the definition of ludicrous.

[Shockw4ve]

Not to defend Christianity here, but ... G-d's "gift" was that of "life," which constitutes "free will." Free will is not determined by God, but by the individual it is given to. And if that individual chooses to rebel, then that is the individual's decision alone.

The way I see it, if G-d and S-t-n exist, they are complete opposites to eachother, and the war is not good versus evil, it's "1" versus "0." G-d, of course, believing that free will is perfection even if it's evil half the time, and S-t-n believing the opposite.

This ought to be taken in the same sense that the universe is considered "perfect" if it attains minimum energy and maximum entropy, a simple chemistry concept that states that the laws of this universe attempt to make every unit of matter/energy completely uniform and repeating in every direction throughout the universe.

That's just my personal idea, though; that does not tie in with Christianity whatsoever. And that's IF G-d and S-t-n exist, which I don't believe they do (in the senses of either word). I respect your personal idea. My personal idea about it is entirely different though. This is how I see things. If god truly exists and is the creator of the universe and everything that exists within it's boundaries, then he must also be responsible for the creation of all thoughts and emotions as well. It would not be possible for any creation of god to think or feel a particular way unless he had made it possible. This would have to include emotions such as hatred and misery, as well as love and joy. It would have to include thoughts such as murder and greed as well as compassion and generosity. Some would argue that lucifer is responsible for leading people down these paths and is the deliverer of temptation and rebellion. This is not a very valid arguement in my opinion since god would have also had to create satan. Therefore it would not be possible for him to perform these actions had god not made the choice to design him to function in such a way.

[BlackGuardXIII]

In the end, what does it matter if one believes or not? Your belief has little impact on me unless you intend to harm me, in which case I am going to defend myself. Like Malcolm X said if his family is in danger, he will protect them, "by whatever means necessary."

That is the only matter. Why is belief supposedly required, the Spirit I believe in is not so vain as to need it.

[Disarm]

I respect your personal idea. My personal idea about it is entirely different though. This is how I see things. If god truly exists and is the creator of the universe and everything that exists within it's boundaries, then he must also be responsible for the creation of all thoughts and emotions as well. It would not be possible for any creation of god to think or feel a particular way unless he had made it possible. This would have to include emotions such as hatred and misery, as well as love and joy. It would have to include thoughts such as murder and greed as well as compassion and generosity. Some would argue that lucifer is responsible for leading people down these paths and is the deliverer of temptation and rebellion. This is not a very valid arguement in my opinion since god would have also had to create satan. Therefore it would not be possible for him to perform these actions had god not made the choice to design him to function in such a way.
I have an issue with what you say because your view would mean that g-d personally sees to every single quality of every single thing in the entire universe, which is ok, but further that every single thing we do is attributed to his will. You're working off the christian bible, I'm guessing, because you're talking about very christian concepts, such as hell; if you do so then perhaps you should reconsider the concept of free will.

If you believe that g-d is in complete control of everything, you must reconcile yourself to the fact that bad things happen to good people, famine, war, disease, are all specifically aimed at everyone affected by them. G-d controls not only what happens to you, but how you react to it, so your feelings of hopelessness, despair, hate, fear, anger (most of which g-d has said he doesn't want us to manifest, if we're still looking at it through the eyes of the christian bible), are all directly attributed to him as well. Not only this, but you must reconcile yourself to the fact that you are doing just what we all hate people doing, which is selectively remembering parts of the bible, and ignoring others, such as our gift of free will, and further the status of angels as compared to g-d, which certainly isn't the same as human status compared to g-d. (We're like the workers and the customers, where G-d is the CEOs and the owners, and the angels are the economy/market/weather etc. It's a different plane of existence, and beings do not exist so much on a heirarchy as hard to measure up against one another.) You can twist and modify and reconcile yourself, or you can look at it in the light of our gift of free will and realise we do what WE do, not what he wants us to.

But like i've said before, we were made in g-d's image, and the torah speaks of his wrath/anger, and his mistakes. He isn't some huge perfect untouchable being, which is the view held by many christians who need to have a refreshed look at their old testament.

[BlackGuardXIII]

God wants us to kiss and make up. Globally.

[seamonster66]

what is this g-d stuff?! Is that even the proper name of god, god is a position, like general or president.

Are people so bored that they have to complicate thier life with picky little details, oh yea.

[Shockw4ve]

You can twist and modify and reconcile yourself, or you can look at it in the light of our gift of free will and realise we do what WE do, not what he wants us to.

I am not twisting or modifying anything. It isn't my intention to prove Christianity to be wrong or convince anyone that it is. I am merely stating what I believe would have to be fact if god did indeed create everything. I also agree with the statement that god, if he exists, would be an imperfect being. Not in a bad sense, but in a sense of unity that all things good and bad could not exist without him.

[BlackGuardXIII]

Blackguard

Thus to satan and god...it is all a game.
For satan knows god..being omnipotent..can make satan go away forever.

A silly story...Winnie the pooh is better.
And christopher robin does;nt stove in the heads of his enemies like in the bible. Or send good men to eternal torment.

Any religion that has a hell..automatically disqualifies itself in reality.
For hell is gratuitous torture...[forever]

And no natural law is gratuitous.

Occam




Occam
Don't you just love tigger? Piglet too....and Eeyore. They are way more interesting than Melchizedek and Zerubabbel, whoever they were, and they dont hamstring the horses in Pooh either.

[Disarm]

what is this g-d stuff?! Is that even the proper name of god, god is a position, like general or president.

Are people so bored that they have to complicate thier life with picky little details, oh yea.
I'm not doing it for picky details, and I'm not 'censoring' anything, like someone said earlier..there are more reasons than the ones I'm giving you, so if you're actually interested you can ask :)

Anyway, the most easy to understand explanation, (and one of the reasons I never say g-d in its entirety in any form, except in certain circumstances,) is because in judaism every letter, and further the name as a whole, represent that object/thing/person etc's reputation, and who/what they are. With g-d, the initial/main name derives from the word Heh-Yod-Heh (3 letters) which basically means 'to be', meaning..well, the meaning essentially represents what g-d is to many people, and WHO he is to many people.. I don't write the name in full because the word 'g-d' means a lot of things to a lot of people, and especially on forums, it can mean some really negative things; as a Jew I'm not supposed to deface or erase His name in any form, and by talking about g-d on this forum I may cause people to deface His name when responding to my posts, so, just like I don't talk about people in a light which may cause others to disrepect them and their name, I don't talk about g-d in a way which would disrespect Him or His name. I'm still talking about g-d, you say, and so I'm allowing people to disrespect his name? In writing g-d, or the full name, I am referring to everyone else's conception of who/what g-d is, (it's like how you capitalise names like Grandad, Mother etc when you're talking about a specific one- I'm using g-d instead of a capiatlised full word to dissassociate the specific jewish g-d from the general conception of any g-d) in this way I am being respectful to all g-ds, and all beliefs, rather than assuming everyone believes in my g-d, or has my faith, nor am I contributing to or destroying (or letting anyone else, should they reply negatively to my posts in relation to g-d) the reputation of any g-d. It also reminds me just how much I don't know about who and what everything is, so it humbles me (believe it or not! My posts here seem bossy and know-it-allish to me).

Are people so ignorant they jump to conclusions? Lets avoid that in our next posts, shall we :P

[BlackGuardXIII]

thanx disarm, I didn't know why you did that. Now I do.

if I write g d I usually am refering to a swear that those two letters are the initials of. gosh darn, or something.

[Disarm]

:Hit's hard sometimes cause I'm not supposed to say stuff like 'oh my g-d' at all, and i hate saying sh*t and f*ck unless I'm in pain or drunk (lol) so I kinda ran out of things to say... so i say jeebus like homer did on the simpsons, then everyone who knows that episode laughs and says something like it. It brings people together, i tell ya :P

[BlackGuardXIII]

:Hit's hard sometimes cause I'm not supposed to say stuff like 'oh my g-d' at all, and i hate saying sh*t and f*ck unless I'm in pain or drunk (lol) so I kinda ran out of things to say... so i say jeebus like homer did on the simpsons, then everyone who knows that episode laughs and says something like it. It brings people together, i tell ya :P
I can understand the respect thing. My own relationship with Spirit gives me a feeling that words and swears aren't that big a deal. Sticks and stones kinda, sort of like Spirit has a thick skin and can forgive even the vilest swears. I sure hope so, cuz I've said em.
Gee whiz used to get me in trouble, but jiminey cricket was okay, and golly gee willikers too. I have many memories of grade 3 to 5 in a christian school, where geez was strap material.

[mati]

can we turn the question around and ask why people believe in the existence of a deity. Because I base belief in perceptions of which I have had experience, I will hold off making that claim until I have had such an experience. Until then the question is more in the realm of the imagination and I would rather work on such things as washing the dishes and taking out the garbage. Many people though are fascinated by gods,devils and the spector of such deep questions concerning the existence of those things. Any good catholic would spend his last dollar on buying a piece of the cross before feeding his hungry children.

[geckopelli]

see the thread, "reasons for belief".

[BlackGuardXIII]

can we turn the question around and ask why people believe in the existence of a deity. Because I base belief in perceptions of which I have had experience, I will hold off making that claim until I have had such an experience. Until then the question is more in the realm of the imagination and I would rather work on such things as washing the dishes and taking out the garbage. Many people though are fascinated by gods,devils and the spector of such deep questions concerning the existence of those things. Any good catholic would spend his last dollar on buying a piece of the cross before feeding his hungry children.
St Francis of Assisi was hoeing his garden when a student asked, "what would you do if you knew this was your last day on earth?" He replied, " Hoe my garden."
I admit a certain yen for more spiritual knowledge, yet also know that it is a selfish pursuit, and the better use of my time is doing the things you mention.

Gandhi, "Whatever you do in life will seem insignificant, but it is very important that you do it anyway."

[Dr. Lecter]

The reason I don't believe is because if you look at the history of all major religions, they've done so much killing, so much hatred and bigotry. It proves that religion cannot possibly be a force for good when it's done more evil than good. I think it's all a money scam based on the human propensity for group delusion. And they all have a proven history of lying and trying to suppress knowledge. Some of the most lying, backstabbing, twisted, perverted violent scumbags I've ever personally known have been devout Christians.
Personally, I doubt there's a god because it's hard to believe that a universe and species this badly-run can have any sentient force directing it. I don't think it's impossible God exists, but I'm sure not counting on it.

[BlackGuardXIII]

The reason I don't believe is because if you look at the history of all major religions, they've done so much killing, so much hatred and bigotry. It proves that religion cannot possibly be a force for good when it's done more evil than good. I think it's all a money scam based on the human propensity for group delusion. And they all have a proven history of lying and trying to suppress knowledge. Some of the most lying, backstabbing, twisted, perverted violent scumbags I've ever personally known have been devout Christians.
Personally, I doubt there's a god because it's hard to believe that a universe and species this badly-run can have any sentient force directing it. I don't think it's impossible God exists, but I'm sure not counting on it.
Christianity has done as much charity work as any religion, and likely more than any other one, which you seem to ignore. It proves humans are weak, and give in to temptation when given free will, not what you say it proves.
I may be wrong, but I feel it is used by evil folk for evil goals, but itself is a force for good, like all religions. The texts of all of them teach us things that are good, love your enemy, dont be greedy, dont lie, steal, kill, etc.
Sounds good to me. I feel it has done far more good than evil, though I would never choose one faith over another. They are all okay by me.
I have met jerks of all types.
God is not directing it, if he exists, he is just the creator, and we are free to f up all we want. I believe Spirit is real, and that it is known what our choices are going to be before we are even born, though those choices are ours to make.

[matthew]

When one/entity person can direct the actions of others , this frightens me.

The pope can make/change religous doctrine and can just sweep whatever he wants under the carpet (http://www.liberator.net/articles/TremblayFrancois/Pope.html)thats a bit wrong (understatement).

Maybe a reason why people turn to more 'mystical' faiths such as Budhism...

2. God’s or Nature's Laws?
For forever and a day, humans have attributed their existence to the work of an intelligent designer, a godhead who created all life. All religions tell some sort of creation story that addresses the question of why we are here. Scientists, on the other hand, have traditionally been concerned with the ‘how’ rather than the ‘why’ of things. They might ask, not why we were created, but how we came to be. That is an altogether easier question for science to tackle.
According to the scientists’ version of creation, we ultimately owe our existence to the fundamental laws of nature. In many ways, cosmologists see this as rather a simple affair. From a few natural laws and an inert gas, comes all the diversity and complexity of life, the universe and everything.

Indeed, Professor John Conway of Princeton University showed beyond doubt that simple rules can create complex patterns. He invented a simple mathematical game consisting of a grid of squares, which he called Life. Some squares are filled with counters, whose fate is determined by three basic rules that correspond to birth, life and death. When this game is run on a computer, what transpires is a pattern that looks as though it were purposeful enough to have been designed.

‘My little Life game is surprising because from the simple rules one wouldn’t expect to find things that move in a sort of purposeful manner. It mimics life to that tiny extent. Like a little mini universe,’ says Conway.

The notion that the universe was created with purpose begins to disintegrate in the face of a greater understanding about how complex systems can emerge from randomness. And they do so with no further input than a few simple rules.



http://www.channel4.com/science/microsites/W/what_we_still_dont_know/arewereal2.html

I am feeling sleepy very sleepy.
Basicaly i think it is all a waste of time (time another abstract concept i suppose zzzzzzz) :rolleyes: .

[Kharakov]

When one/entity person can direct the actions of others , this frightens me. Should the idea that the universe possesses intent frighten you if at has given rise to you?

The pope can make/change religous doctrine and can just sweep whatever he wants under the carpet (http://www.liberator.net/articles/TremblayFrancois/Pope.html)thats a bit wrong (understatement). The pope is but a small part of the picture. You could consider that it is essential to life for there to be opposing forces. What would be the fun of doing something if it did not have a positive goal? How could you have a positive goal if you did not have forces opposed to it and at the same time forces to reach it? Orgasms are worthwhile goals to pursue, and the fact that certain forces oppose or delay them adds to the gratification of attaining them. To look at religion in a positive light might help us understand that opposition to an action is not a bad thing, but instead it is part of attaining that thing- it is essential to our enjoyment of that thing. It's cold outside and I am enjoying being inside because it is warm.

Religious pressure not to do something can be looked at as a positive force that adds to the pleasure of doing that very thing. To focus upon anything as negative is to deny the good in the opposing pressure. Without friction there would be no sex. To recognize what is good for you- the pressure that opposes you, is to see the good in this opposition (even if this pressure is a thought that conflicts with your own thoughts). Ultimately, the opposing forces should guide you to realizing that your opposition to them is as good for them as they are for you. Doesn't it strengthen your own identity to be assailed by opposing forces that you know are wrong (for you!), and still be able to be yourself and have happiness in this fact?

He invented a simple mathematical game consisting of a grid of squares, which he called Life. Some squares are filled with counters, whose fate is determined by three basic rules that correspond to birth, life and death. When this game is run on a computer, what transpires is a pattern that looks as though it were purposeful enough to have been designed. It was designed. If there was no intent to do anything, it (the game) would never have been made. The idea of a perfect God encapsulates the essence of this game- that the universe is perfect in that simple rules give rise to a variety of life (and rules).

The notion that the universe was created with purpose begins to disintegrate in the face of a greater understanding about how complex systems can emerge from randomness. And they do so with no further input than a few simple rules.A simple set of rules that creates a complex system can arise from a complex system (a human named John Conway). This in no way indicates a lack of intent.

[geckopelli]

Kharakov is correct.

Science cannot prove that a purposful god does not exist.

But if purpose is tentatively accepted, it can make statements concerning the nature of that purpose.

[BlackGuardXIII]

Originally Posted by matthew
When one/entity person can direct the actions of others , this frightens me.

It should, but I hear people admit that they are being controlled by others many times a day. 'he made me made', 'she drove me nuts', 'he depressed me', etc. I find it interesting that it is often the person's enemies that have this control, and ability to direct their emotions. The last people one would want controlling them.
It is so common, also frightening, and no one seems to notice.
If god is real, my take is that we have free will, so we are not directed.
I believe, but just exactly what it is I believe is still being decided.

[matthew]

[QUOTE=Kharakov]Should the idea that the universe possesses intent frighten you if at has given rise to you?
I am talking about a human being or a figure such as 'God' or even a entity meaning particular religeon .. people following such things frighten me..because they base their morals from a person/entity .. not through choice as such.

I am a good person and can do good things i am also a bad person and can do bad things

quote:

'Bad people can do bad things Good people can do good things , it takes religeon for good people to do bad things'


The pope is but a small part of the picture. You could consider that it is essential to life for there to be opposing forces. What would be the fun of doing something if it did not have a positive goal? How could you have a positive goal if you did not have forces opposed to it and at the same time forces to reach it? Orgasms are worthwhile goals to pursue, and the fact that certain forces oppose or delay them adds to the gratification of attaining them. To look at religion in a positive light might help us understand that opposition to an action is not a bad thing, but instead it is part of attaining that thing- it is essential to our enjoyment of that thing. It's cold outside and I am enjoying being inside because it is warm.
Small part ... mmmm a major influence and the head of the catholic church, more than a small part..... whatever metaphor you use, it does not work on me i am afraid (sorry).

Religious pressure not to do something can be looked at as a positive force that adds to the pleasure of doing that very thing. To focus upon anything as negative is to deny the good in the opposing pressure. Without friction there would be no sex. To recognize what is good for you- the pressure that opposes you, is to see the good in this opposition (even if this pressure is a thought that conflicts with your own thoughts). Ultimately, the opposing forces should guide you to realizing that your opposition to them is as good for them as they are for you. Doesn't it strengthen your own identity to be assailed by opposing forces that you know are wrong (for you!), and still be able to be yourself and have happiness in this fact?

It was designed. If there was no intent to do anything, it (the game) would never have been made. The idea of a perfect God encapsulates the essence of this game- that the universe is perfect in that simple rules give rise to a variety of life (and rules).

A simple set of rules that creates a complex system can arise from a complex system (a human named John Conway). This in no way indicates a lack of intent.This why i was yawning before... i have no desire to over think god the universe and everything ...it been done and is being done by much smarter people than me ?? As time goes on more complex reasons will be thought of to accept the notion of a god.. well bollocks to that:rolleyes:

[roxycheer]

I will not say what is true and what is not true because who am i to decide that...just because if you can not see something it does not mean that it is not there...but then i think that religions were and are made for those who can not live without an answer to the question we have all asked at at least one point in our lives...what is the meaning of it all??...they choose to accept the way of religon so they have something to believe, something to trust for there pure existence...but then there are also those who haven't a choice but are born into a family and surrounding of a particular belief and then i think it is simply brain washing...and yes this is how wars can, have and will be developed...and so i choose to stear clear of choosing to join a religion but then i must instead struggle to find my own beliefs to satisfy the questions that hunt me...but hey its led me to see from the outside, which is a gift in itself and to learn not to hate but to except all for who they are...no religion...its worked for me!

[Occam]

I will not say what is true and what is not true because who am i to decide that...just because if you can not see something it does not mean that it is not there...but then i think that religions were and are made for those who can not live without an answer to the question we have all asked at at least one point in our lives...what is the meaning of it all??...they choose to accept the way of religon so they have something to believe, something to trust for there pure existence...but then there are also those who haven't a choice but are born into a family and surrounding of a particular belief and then i think it is simply brain washing...and yes this is how wars can, have and will be developed...and so i choose to stear clear of choosing to join a religion but then i must instead struggle to find my own beliefs to satisfy the questions that hunt me...but hey its led me to see from the outside, which is a gift in itself and to learn not to hate but to except all for who they are...no religion...its worked for me!
Roxy

1. And just because you cannot see something . does not mean it exists.
2. Wars are mosly started by ego using nations. Not ego using religion.
3. You have your 'independent point of view' based on the rejection of 'common points of view' [based on no evidence. religion].
To underatand...We all need to FIRST..reject 'accepted social views'
Then base our understanding on a system which results in the LEAST contradiction to observed reality.

To occam,,religion offers nothing but contradiction... Be it islam or christianity [the monotheism] Or hindu dogma or any other 'god' based belief...
All are contradictory. All based in human agendas and human political
motivations. All are human control sytems applied by ego to other humans.
All using BOOKS writen by the controllers...
The book is TRUTH,,Because the book says so...
And the book [example,,the bible]
Was written by MEN in the 6th century.

And occam can follow no 'god on earth' that never laughs or cracks a joke.
For the 'destruction of a man' , the description of jesus by the bible,
Is just that.
MEN turned the MAN into a deity...They thought a deity never tells jokes or gets the runs...
Yet jesus did both...Why dont we read it in the bible?
BECUASE IT IS EDITED.
Just like Newsweek.
[ps..example...suicide was edited in as a SIN when people started killing themselves to get to heaven..CANT have that..religion looses its funding]

Occam

[BlackGuardXIII]

roxycheerI will not say what is true and what is not true
they choose to accept the way of religon so they have something to believe
learn not to hate but to except all for who they are

I will only say what is true for me, and if someone has a differing view, it is true for them, tho I do not include hate in that.
I do not feel all members of religions have the same motives for being there, but that there are numerous ones, some reasons are easier for me to understand than others.
I feel that to accept other faiths as equally true and valid to mine shows respect, modesty, and love. And I feel it is logical and wise to do so.

[roxycheer]

Because I dont know...because i am not sure for i have not felt, seen the truth behind it all i will not say what exists and what does not exist, but simply be grateful for this life, for my existence and the people who share this life with me...and I think that is enough for me.

[deserttraveler]

mmhmm

[BlackGuardXIII]

I too am just happy to be here, and am amazed at what a gift this life is.

[Kharakov]

I am talking about a human being or a figure such as 'God' or even a entity meaning particular religeon .. people following such things frighten me..because they base their morals from a person/entity .. not through choice as such. So you are afraid of herd instinct causing another atrocity (such as the slaughter of the Jews in ww2). Obviously herd instinct is not limited to religion. Nationalism (germany ww2, austria ww1) plays a large part in war between nations and ideologies. Look at the Mao lead communist uprising in China and what happened to that nation after embracing an ideology that opposes religion.
I think all nations and ideologies should be destroyed because they cause war!!!! :p

Another thing you could consider is this, that if God is controlling things- God is controlling from 'behind the scenes' without giving direct commands. God makes people the way they are so they will make the decisions they make- murder, war, love, hate- they are all part of what happens without God having to give a direct command to the dictator or murderer that decides to do these things.
This why i was yawning before... i have no desire to over think god the universe and everything ...it been done and is being done by much smarter people than me ?? As time goes on more complex reasons will be thought of to accept the notion of a god.. Ok, if you don't want to think about it, why don't you go ahead and let someone else think for you? You were joking, right?

[BlackGuardXIII]

Non-belief.
It is logical.
It is the conclusion that makes the most sense, barring one having a personal experience that defies rational explanation.
No critical examination of the pro-theist 'evidence' is convincing to anyone with a good grasp of scientific method and logic.
Non belief needs no reason, it is the starting ground.
Belief needs the reason, or else it is just blind faith, based on a decision made with something other than the brain. Maybe made by the heart, maybe the soul, maybe the adrenal gland. It cannot be laid out logically for all to confirm.
That is my view of non belief.

[roxycheer]

I think all nations and ideologies should be destroyed because they cause war!!!! :p
If only it was that easy...look at Bush today.

[Mui]

the fact that the majority of the worlds leaders believe in some sort of "God" is rather disturbing to me. it proves that all is bullshit.

[BlackGuardXIII]

the fact that the majority of the worlds leaders believe in some sort of "God" is rather disturbing to me. it proves that all is bullshit.How exactly does that 'prove' anything? I don't follow you at all.
You must be really special, since you are by your own estimation, at your young age, already wiser than the majority of the world's leaders.
How does your head fit through your home's doorways?

Why be disturbed? So you are 'sure' there is no God. Well, maybe you're wrong. It is disturbing to me that so many people think that just cuz they have never experienced something, no one else has either.
It is a very self centered and egotistical perspective.
Have you ever had any paranormal things occur in your life?
I have, and if you haven't that doesn't change a thing in my life.

[thumontico]

How can you be so critical if you yourself claim that these paranormal occurances must be experienced personally to have 'faith' in it? Do you agree that you would not necessarily believe unless these things happened in your life?

Conversely, I haven't experienced any of the sort, and even though you have that doesn't change a thing in my life. Mainly because it is a subjectively significant experience that I have yet to experience. Unless these occurances could be proven scientifically, however, that would not necessarily bring with it any other presuppositions of already present mysticism.

Individual life, in a less strict sense, is the height of egotism.

[Kharakov]

the fact that the majority of the worlds leaders believe in some sort of "God" is rather disturbing to me. it proves that all is bullshit.
Or maybe it shows that God favors those who believe in God. Whatever, however...

[Sera Michele]

I think it is more of an indication that we are still a religious society.

[Kharakov]

Or maybe an indication that many leaders need to believe that God is directing their actions, because otherwise decisions that lead to loss of life for the leader's followers would be to depressing for the leaders. If it is meant to be- what fault lies in the leader for the decision they have made? God's plan is the ultimate skapegoat, and allows leaders to make big gambles without feeling like they are responsible for wrongs to the people they lead.

[BlackGuardXIII]

How can you be so critical if you yourself claim that these paranormal occurances must be experienced personally to have 'faith' in it? Do you agree that you would not necessarily believe unless these things happened in your life?

Conversely, I haven't experienced any of the sort, and even though you have that doesn't change a thing in my life. Mainly because it is a subjectively significant experience that I have yet to experience. Unless these occurances could be proven scientifically, however, that would not necessarily bring with it any other presuppositions of already present mysticism.

Individual life, in a less strict sense, is the height of egotism.
I can and do only speak for myself, as I have often repeated. I have also said that it clearly doesn't affect yours, or anyone else's life in the slightest, of course, how could it?
I must admit it is my conclusion that it took many paranormal occurances in my life before I really, firmly, accepted that they were significant.
I cannot see how anyone can avoid an 'individual life', as you put it.
I would not consider my views egotistical.
If you do, please be specific as to how I am so, and then I will best be able to improve myself. If I agree, of course.

[roxycheer]

the fact that the majority of the worlds leaders believe in some sort of "God" is rather disturbing to me. it proves that all is bullshit.
maybe she means that what we are told from our world leaders is bull shit...not the existence of a god itself...just checkin?? :confused:

[Spinor]

All true and not true...God-yes or God-no........

Pick your reference,
gain your preference.

loops of self-referential notions....always ending where they begin.

[BlackGuardXIII]

Or maybe an indication that many leaders need to believe that God is directing their actions, because otherwise decisions that lead to loss of life for the leader's followers would be to depressing for the leaders. If it is meant to be- what fault lies in the leader for the decision they have made? God's plan is the ultimate skapegoat, and allows leaders to make big gambles without feeling like they are responsible for wrongs to the people they lead.
You may be right, though, to me, there are countless possible reasons for it. I agree that your idea is likely a common one, but I also think that sincere spirituality is one too.
I don't see the connection between non-faith and depression over loss of life. In my view, the guilt and doubt would exist either way.
I do agree, though, that there are some religious followers who do so 'just in case', or to shift blame ie: 'it was God's will that I didn't succeed.' and 'the devil made me do it.'.
Another possibly common reason for the leaders to be religious is that they chose to profess their church membership early in their political careers, strictly as a means of garnering more votes. How cynical eh?

[Kharakov]

You may be right, though, to me, there are countless possible reasons for it. I agree that your idea is likely a common one, but I also think that sincere spirituality is one too......
Another possibly common reason for the leaders to be religious is that they chose to profess their church membership early in their political careers, strictly as a means of garnering more votes. How cynical eh?
Or possibly insightful. What if you have both the benefit of added support from like minded people and the benefit of a sincere faith in God... seems like a win/win to me.

[BlackGuardXIII]

Or possibly insightful. What if you have both the benefit of added support from like minded people and the benefit of a sincere faith in God... seems like a win/win to me.
It does sound like a good thing........but........isn't that what Jonestown was all about? And also the various hate groups that use God as their raison d'etre?

It has the potential to be extremely good or bad, depending on the motives of the leader.
When the religion that the leader is promoting espouses superiority and derides other faiths as 'false', it is a recipe for bloodshed.

[Kharakov]

That's why it is important for every man, woman, and child to think for themselves. God puts awful leaders out their so that people realize they should lead themselves and do not need to lead others. Don't follow man, don't try to get man to follow you, walk your own way alongside others.

[Occam]

Personality cults are a thing that evolution of sentient being evolve out of..

Jonestown was a bunch of lost people following a tinpot ego.
It happenned because hope was used by ego.
And ego betrayed it.
EGO BETRAYS ALL BUT ITSELF...and in the END , IT BETRAYS ITSELF EVEN MORE
Humanity ...has no ego... It is more than the sum of its parts.
It is a thing we cannot see because we are part of it.

Occam

[Spinor]

Personality cults are a thing that evolution of sentient being evolve out of..

Jonestown was a bunch of lost people following a tinpot ego.
It happenned because hope was used by ego.
And ego betrayed it.
EGO BETRAYS ALL BUT ITSELF...and in the END , IT BETRAYS ITSELF EVEN MORE
Humanity ...has no ego... It is more than the sum of its parts.
It is a thing we cannot see because we are part of it.

Occam
Perhaps on should not judge. Jonestown was just another quantum jump sequence.....no better, no worse than anything else. It is only from our shared collective reference, that it seems to have been a dead end. But from another reference point, it might have been just what the 'doctor' ordered.

[Occam]

Perhaps on should not judge. Jonestown was just another quantum jump sequence.....no better, no worse than anything else. It is only from our shared collective reference, that it seems to have been a dead end. But from another reference point, it might have been just what the 'doctor' ordered. Spinor

Some truth..for the adults it was personal choice..But many children were
KILLED by their parents,,,
Thus the parents usurped the rights of the children...and killed them
HUMAN EVIL

Jonestown ended up as a bunch of lost adults following a tinpot ego...
And chosing death...And MURDERING their children.

That is it. No higher meaning for the ones MURDERED..the children.

There is no higher meaning or 'quantum jump sequence' when the 'jumpers'
MURDER their children before 'jumping'

Occam

[Occam]

That's why it is important for every man, woman, and child to think for themselves. God puts awful leaders out their so that people realize they should lead themselves and do not need to lead others. Don't follow man, don't try to get man to follow you, walk your own way alongside others.
Kharakov

Rubbish

Occam

[Occam]

i couldn't disagree more J kerry

Excellent...
Why?

Occam

PS..Please address yout reply...
[who are you replying to?]

[Kharakov]

Rubbish

Occam
Of course. Those who do not think they should think for themselves would think this way.

Rubbish (bullshit) is fertilizer for truth.

[mati]

Politicians and preists work in similar ways to manipulate people. Each appeals to the morals and links it to the passions which makes it doublely forceful. Save your country! Save your soul! They shout it from the soapboxes and altars. Combine the two and it doubles again. Who can resist? The Puritans are once again on the rise. It is nothing new for America. They have been here and preaching since they landed on Plymouth Rock. You can see it in Prohibition, Dress Codes, "Family Values". It is enough to drive Miss America to a Valium addiction(or Bushs' daughter). As H.L. Mencken said:"no one ever lost money underestimating the taste of the American public". And George Bush didn't lose the election by appealing to their puritan instincts.

[Kharakov]

So puritans are favored by natural selection? ;)

[mati]

The problem of inbreeding persists. Ask any dog breeder and they will tell you that with the purer the breed, the greater the risk of genetic abnormalities forming, the bible belt for example.

[Kharakov]

The problem of inbreeding persists. Ask any dog breeder and they will tell you that with the purer the breed, the greater the risk of genetic abnormalities forming, the bible belt for example.
Hmm. So do you think ideas (memes) are the same way?

Fundamentalism... the meme.

[BlackGuardXIII]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Occam
Rubbish

Occam

Of course. Those who do not think they should think for themselves would think this way.

Rubbish (bullshit) is fertilizer for truth. Kharakov
.
I am surprised that you feel Occam is against free thought. He is adamantly in favour of free thinking, as far as I know. I think that the rubbish he was referring to was this:
.
'God puts awful leaders out their so that people realize they should lead themselves and do not need to lead others.' Kharakov
.
That is a bold statement of opinion that I doubt many would find to be sensible.

[Kharakov]

Of course. Those who do not think they should think for themselves would think this way.

Rubbish (bullshit) is fertilizer for truth. Kharakov
.
I am surprised that you feel Occam is against free thought. He is adamantly in favour of free thinking, as far as I know. Portrays himself to be, might even believe it. Bill O'Reilly is the only source of fair and balanced news coverage. Welcome to the no spin zone.

I think that the rubbish he was referring to was this:
.
'God puts awful leaders out their so that people realize they should lead themselves and do not need to lead others.' Kharakov
.
That is a bold statement of opinion that I doubt many would find to be sensible. Yup. Some people score in the 99th percentile, meaning they understand more than the rest of the population. The other 99% of the population don't get it, or deliberately lie about it.

Not only is it an opinion, It's a fact.

[BlackGuardXIII]

Portrays himself to be, might even believe it. Bill O'Reilly is the only source of fair and balanced news coverage. Welcome to the no spin zone.

Yup. Some people score in the 99th percentile, meaning they understand more than the rest of the population. The other 99% of the population don't get it, or deliberately lie about it.

Not only is it an opinion, It's a fact.
Are you claiming that 99% believe god puts awful leaders in power?
That is what I read.
If it is a fact, then there is no point in me refuting it even though it sounds unlikely.

[Kharakov]

Are you claiming that 99% believe god puts awful leaders in power? Not at all. I worded it incorrectly.

percentile:a value on a scale of one hundred that indicates the percent (http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=percent) of a distribution that is equal to or below it

When you score in the 99th percentile on a test it means that the group that has gotten an equal score with you did better than 99 percent of the population.

When I said "Some people score in the 99th percentile, meaning they understand more than the rest of the population" I was speaking metaphorically. I didn't mean that people literally score in the 99th percentile: I meant that a very small portion of the population understand what is going on. I later suggested that : The other 99% of the population don't get it, or deliberately lie about it (I worded the original statement incorrectly as well, this is a little bit more like what I want to express : God deliberately causes awful leaders to arise in order to make men turn to God instead of following other men or their own foolish plans). God's rule is the lightest rule of all.

[BlackGuardXIII]

When you score in the 99th percentile on a test it means that the group that has gotten an equal score with you did better than 99 percent of the population.kharakov

I know what a percentile is. I have scored in the 98th percentile in IQ, the 93p'tile in english skills, and the 100th p'tile in emotional supportiveness. I get yer point, i just dont buy it.

[Kharakov]

I get yer point, i just dont buy it.
Ok. I wouldn't either, I just happen to own it. My point, that is.

[mati]

ideas are copies of impressions. memory preserves the order of its' perceptions, as compared to the imagination, which is bound by no such order. At times, aided by passion and driven by emotions, the dim imaginings of our mind can come close to the more lively impressions, such as might happen at a revival meeting. The whole production is setup to amaze the congregation and appeal to what is at once the best human nature has to offer, and at other times, raise the spector of what is worst. The willing believer rides this holy roller coaster as far as they and the preacher conductor can take it. But at best, I must remain sceptical as to how well ideas can represent impressions. It is easy in this setting to confuse the two. Even our perceptions may not be identical with its´objects, and should be viewed with a certain amount of scepticism as well. What indeed can we believe?

[Trotsky311]

ideas are copies of impressions. memory preserves the order of its' perceptions, as compared to the imagination, which is bound by no such order. At times, aided by passion and driven by emotions, the dim imaginings of our mind can come close to the more lively impressions, such as might happen at a revival meeting. The whole production is setup to amaze the congregation and appeal to what is at once the best human nature has to offer, and at other times, raise the spector of what is worst. The willing believer rides this holy roller coaster as far as they and the preacher conductor can take it. But at best, I must remain sceptical as to how well ideas can represent impressions. It is easy in this setting to confuse the two. Even our perceptions may not be identical with its´objects, and should be viewed with a certain amount of scepticism as well. What indeed can we believe?
what can we belive? it would seem Hume's philosophy from most of that.....eh, better than descarte...that guy was out there..

[Occam]

OK
My friends
NoOne puts evil leaders in power.
They put themselves in power.

Let us speak of Stalin.
He killed by direct order, more human beings than any other in human knowing.
He did so by manipulating the 2 prime human motivations
Fear and self interest

His words
"A million deaths is a statistic, one death is a tradgedy"

Occam

[BlackGuardXIII]

OK
My friends
NoOne puts evil leaders in power.
They put themselves in power.

Let us speak of Stalin.
He killed by direct order, more human beings than any other in human knowing.
He did so by manipulating the 2 prime human motivations
Fear and self interest

His words
"A million deaths is a statistic, one death is a tradgedy"

Occam
Sure, Stalin may have been personally responsible for +/- 20 million deaths, but he was a doting grandfather who wrote lovely letters to his little granddaughter. That has to count for something, huh?

[Occam]

Sure, Stalin may have been personally responsible for +/- 20 million deaths, but he was a doting grandfather who wrote lovely letters to his little granddaughter. That has to count for something, huh?
Blackguard

Yes, i means he wrote lovely letters to his grandkids.
What else should it count for?

Occam