Israel? Zionism? Yes? No?

[Taylor]

I'm currently in Israel and have been for the last 9 months. I'm going back home to NZ in 3 weeks. I belong to a zionist youth movement (Habonim Dror) and was sent for Shnat Hachshara (year of preperation) in Israel.

Basically, I'm wondering how much people here support Israel... how zionist are you? I'm not really that zionist. My movement is also left wing, as am I, so I've spent my year looking at and trying to alleviate some of the problems in this country. A lot of the problems that Israel has seem to be brought onto it by its own mistakes (ie lack of funding for education in Israel Proper when the schools in the shtachim (settlements) get 165% of the funding that is given other schools and thats not even looking at the difference between funding given to jewish and to arab/bedouin schools).

This country has many problems... You've gotta ask, when/if you make aaliyah, are you just going to make aaliyah stam? Or are you going to come here and make a difference? Me and my friends have an on-going debate as to which is better...

1) Make aaliyah in the sense of you moving to Israel but once you get here, you live in Tel Aviv, work an office job and don't really do anything to help the country get out of the fucked up shit its in.

OR

2) Stay in the country you live in, in the diaspora, but instead devote some of your time to spreading awareness about the "truth" about Israel (ie a different point of view rather then the crap spread about by people like Free Palestine) and also devote some of your time to helping people who are in need.

What do you think? I think the second one is better.

-Tamsyn

[gazza3001]

I much agree with you Taylor. I too have been in Israel for nearly a year and am going home soon.

In terms of zionism, I am a supporter for the Jewish State. Israel is the Jewish State and but it was set up as, I agree with. The concepts of socialsist zionism and the teachings of Ahad Haam (the Jewish State as a jewish cultural centre) are the ideas that I agree with. I am still in a bit of a rut as to what I think about Israel, but as it is as a democratic country, I dont nessassarily agree with the government.

[smellyhairyhippie]

Israel rocks dude, we just need to clean the terrorists out, then it'll be alot better, so i guess im pretty zionist

[feministhippy]

At this point I would say I'm pretty undecided. I don't consider myself a Zionist, but I'm not anti-Zionist either. Truth be told, I don't feel that same close connection to Israel that a lot of other Jews do. I'm an American.

[Shachar]

Basically, as someone who has also been in Israel nearly a year (coincidence? not really - i live with Taylor) and as someobody who wants to make aliyah, I guess that puts me in the category of Zionist. :)

I think a big problem that people have is not so much with the concept of Zionism (I have encountered very few people who don't believe in the validity of a Jewish homeland, a place free from persecution for Jews), I rather think that it is the current preconceived defintions and notions of Zionism that stick in people's throats. For me Zionism is NOT building the land, nor is it annexing as much territory as possible from our neighbours. Zionism is not oppressing the Palestinian people, and Zionism is most certainly NOT blindly supporting everything the Israeli government does.

For me, Zionism is loving Israel despite all her faults. Zionism is not just being able to criticise Israel and recognising all the things here that are wrong, but having the passion and the desire and the drive to change them. Zionism is wanting to fix up all the fucked up things in this society. Zionism is wanting to make Israel a homeland, in all the senses of the word 'home' - a sanctuary, a place where all its inhabitants, Jewish or not, feel comfortable and happy, and a place where they WANT to be.

As for zionism versus democracy, call me a racist, but for me at the end of the day zionism has to win out. If I had the choice between a Jewish State, and a completely Democratic one, I would choose a Jewish one. In my opinion, history has proven all too often that society is more than willing to use Jews as scapegoats for their problems, and I believe a Jewish state NEEDS to exist.

Despite this, I still do not and will not stand by some of the things that this Jewish State has done. I am able to, and believe I have an obligation to recognise the many inequalities prevalent in society here. This includes the discrimination against Jews and non-Jews alike. But, like a parent whose child does bad things, I nonetheless will not withhold any love for this country, nor pride for all the things that she has achieved in such a short space of time, despite all the odds against her.

[Kharakov]

Wouldn't it be totally wierd if you knew some friends of mine from when I was 7 or 8? Yiyir (~31), Nir (~29), and Alad (~26) Ben-amar.

[Spacer]

Israel rocks dude, we just need to clean the terrorists out, then it'll be alot better, so i guess im pretty zionist
Which ones, the Palestinian terrorists or the Israeli ones? Or both?

[gazza3001]

terrorism
The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.

I don't know how many times I have posted this up, but it is a huge number. Who do you think are the Terrorists?
By definition, I see the suicide bombers and people which shoot Qassam Rockets as the terrorists.

Am I wrong in thinking this? :confused:

[Shachar]

Wouldn't it be totally wierd if you knew some friends of mine from when I was 7 or 8? Yiyir (~31), Nir (~29), and Alad (~26) Ben-amar.
None of the names are familiar, but there are 6.3 million people living in this country and I havent quite yet mangaed to meet ALL of them! ;)

[Shachar]

Oh, by the way Gary - I agree with your definition of terrorists - particularly when it gets to days when you are in Shuk HaCarmel the day before it is blown up, and you have to wonder why it is you cant do your shopping in peace....

The thing is though, what makes them terrorists and not freedom fighters? That, in my opinion, is the more difficult line to draw, if in fact there is a line at all.....

[Taylor]

None of the names are familiar, but there are 6.3 million people living in this country and I havent quite yet mangaed to meet ALL of them! ;)
...though lord knows she's tried... :p

[themnax]

the present day nation of israel has every right to exist
as a modern day nation.

it has no right however, to treat the decendents of the
people who were already living there before it became one,
any differently then anyone else living within its borders.

i know i'm not there on the ground. but to me this is the
beggining and the end of it.

i believe hamas and p.l.o. should have seats in the knesset
if the people living in the districts that would elect them
choose to do so.

and of course people who commit harmful acts should be
treated just like anyone else wo committs harmful acts,
whatever their religeon, politics or anything else.

would there be an 'intifada' if the palistinians had the
same rights, privalidges and responsibilities as other
israelies? i don't know. but i do know there is no moral
justifiction for denying them.

(i also believe this is entirely a political question that
has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with belief)

=^^=
.../\...

[Taylor]

i believe hamas and p.l.o. should have seats in the knesset
if the people living in the districts that would elect them
choose to do so.

and of course people who commit harmful acts should be
treated just like anyone else wo committs harmful acts,
whatever their religeon, politics or anything else.

would there be an 'intifada' if the palistinians had the
same rights, privalidges and responsibilities as other
israelies? i don't know. but i do know there is no moral
justifiction for denying them.


that would make sense except that Hamas and the PLO are active in areas which are not currently Israel Proper. They are instead in the occupied territoties which have NOT been annexed to israel, hence why the palestinians do not have the same rights as Israeli arabs (who do not have some of the same rights as JEWS in Israel but thats a different thread).

I agree that things need to change but I don't believe Hamas will. the PLO agrees that Israel has a right to exist. Hamas has never said anything of the kind and is instead fighting for the removal of israel and the death of the jews.

[Shachar]

Two State Solution all the way, baby.....

And there is no way, absolutely NO way, that I would ever EVER want a terrorist, racist organisation like Hamas having seats in the Knesset. Lord knows that politicians are bad enough as it is. Just like there is no way I would EVER want Kach (a Jewish terrorist racist party) getting seats in the Knesset.

As for meeting all of them, yes Tamsyn, am trying my damndest. So many people, so little time....

[Kabbalist]

My religion is also known as Thelemic Zionism.

I don't follow the zionist agenda.

However I do follow some of their attitudes.

I love Israel.
I agree with you, we share opinion.

[EwokUtopia]

Zionism is imperialistic terrorism. It is saying that that strip of land belongs to one race by divine right and all others must leave. It is blatant racism and must be opposed just like the oppression of the North American Native should have never happened. To say that the "terrorism" of the palestinians justifies the fascist practises of Israel is like saying that The Natives deserved all the massacres commited against them because a very small amount scalped white men (who were invading their land). Jews are not new to the area, but Israeli's are. Jews and Arabs have gotten along great in the past in Palestine. Israeli's and Palestinians have not. Why? because Israel was, from its very birth expansive and militaristic. We should either have 2 states for the seperate people, one new bicultural, trireligious state, or even better no states at all. Let the masses not be bound to any flag or government.

[Nimrod's Apprentice]

Zionism was the intent of the Third Reich. First with the British Empire and their ideas for the Balfour Declaration. It is nothing more than a front for an occult world government using the jewish people as bait. I won't be shocked if another holocaust esque event happens to further push these goals of this hidden power elite. However anyone who lives in Israel is a working member of the government personally knew (or was somewhat close to knowing) Netenyahu and Sharon, and you can prove that this is incorrect I would like to see it. WWII wasn't only a war to destroy Autocracy (wwI being an end of supreme dominance of national monarchies), it was also a setup for the coming WWIII a war of religion. All I can say is if we payed attention to what happened during the crusades we can basically predict whats going to happen. We setup a mass hysteria on both the arab muslim, and judeo-christian fronts. Then basically release the "godless asians from the east" and destroy all sides. This time destroying Judaism and Islam. Whereas Now the Pope is all thats left of organized religion ushering in a New dark Age. Instead of 1000 years ago ushering out a dark age into a renaissance itll be backwards.
THe godless asians, being the Communist china of today, most likely via an Iranian connection. Back then It was the Mongol Hordes (a little less godless but all the more vicious). History repeats. When its written like a book.

[EwokUtopia]

Dude....I hate Israel for its inhumane and imperialistic and racist practises....you seem to be some fearful and racist Christian conspiracy theorist who believes that the enemies of Pat Robertson are converging on a new Jewish/Communist/Atheist world order. This is wrong. There are no "Godless Hoards" of Asia that are going to storm the world. That is a racist point of view I may add. Do not call yourself an anti-zionist, because you appear to oppose zionism due to some percieved conspiracy to destroy Christianity. I oppose Zionism because Zionism kills innocent Arab children. The conspiracy is about the ruling class excercising their rule over a theoretically smarter, but practically more easily brainwashed proletariate. What you are saying however reminds me very much of a psuedo-religion called Esoteric Hitlerism....this 'religion' is full of more shit than Scientology, and that says alot!

And clearly, you are new to history, there was no conspiracy surrounding the Mongols, and that part of History will not repeat itself because there are no more warlike nomads on the steppes of Eurasia...we will have to nuke ourselves back to the stone age for this to happen again.


History doesnt repeat itself. It rhymes with the times.

[Nimrod's Apprentice]

Nah I was just comparing the unseen force from the east back then was the Mongols, nowadays the Chinese. All I meant was no one in the western world really thought about them back then, and a little less now but still to a degree. CHristianity was caught up in its own little conflict with the muslims. The same exists today, whereas western culture can be substitued with Christianity as a religion, but back then it dominated it entirely.

I didn't say conspiracy with the mongols, I meant they were outside of it. The unseen force from the east. As for the Esoteric Hitlerism, that was the "hidden" religion of the Third Reich, but they used CHristianity as a front. You didn't even address the Balfour Declaration, and the fact that it was the British who instigated this effort for a return of Jews to Israel primarily for British Imperial gain, they would run it as a province then seize it the first oppurtunity they could. The British Empire however fell before it could happen. This morphed into a war reminiscent of the French Revolution in all of Europe. Downfall of Monarchy through WWI. This cause brought the effect politically in Germany they pushed the Nazi Ideals. The ones that were creating this notion of Esoteric Hitlerism, were funding the concentration camps, and the collection of Jews. This feeds off the Jewish religion, the idea of the chosen people of the vengeful god's covenant bound to suffer untill judgement.

This is now a perfect front to fullfill the Zionist Ideal the same people were pushing different propaganda thru the jewish angle. Igniting a spark to head back to this land, now was doubled with this spark of Nazi racism. There was a general sense of remorse and mercy on the Jewish people by the allies, just like their should've been. This is the events leading up to the creation of the state of Israel. The Nazi's fall, either way "THEY BEHIND THE SCENES" won. No matter what the physical outcome of the war.

The evidence is all over especially in the symbols used for both the Nazi Empire, and The state of Israel. The Swastika, Im sure you all know is a symbol used all over the world for different meanings. The Star of David, is in fact really the Seal of Solomon. Which is an occult symbol regarding incantations dating back to the time of Solomon said to have magical diving, and invocation of Demons. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seal_of_solomon
This disappeared between the time of Solomon, and then repsrouted in the middle ages, when occult and Kabbalist ideals re-surfaced in Judaism. They were shut down and the symbol was outlawed as a symbol of the Babylonian Captivity and not true to the Jewish Religion of Abraham. Then all the sudden comes back out to symbolize a united Jewish Nation. Right after the fall of another attempted Ethnocentric country, who fed off each other. It is also known that a swastika can even be SUBSTIUTED AND HAS BEEN FOUND PORTRAYED RIGHT NEXT TO A SEAL OF SOLOMON.
This is an obvious connection.

[EwokUtopia]

Dude, you believe alot of fucked up shit. None of this is logical in the slightest. Next youll tell me that the third reich escaped to the antarctic with the aid of UFO's that they found, and that they have been in contact with sub-terrainian reptillian beings, and are about to strike with thousands of reverse engineered UFO's. Dont think I am unfirmilliar with nutjob far-right conspiracy theories. They amuze me, and put a smile on my face.


This is a political discussion of zionism versus anti-zionism, this is not a discussion about dungeons and dragons.

[EwokUtopia]

Kinda funny turn of topics though

[Nimrod's Apprentice]

Did you look at that seal of solomon article? Im going to find a link in a few that shows The seal of solomon, directly next to the swastika, and provides an example that they can be interchangeable symbols with the same meaning. Your trying to make me out into a racist, because thats what liberals do. Try and pull the race card, or the PC card, trying to say I don't know what Im talking about. When I am drawing from fact, with a little bit of my own theory. There is proof that the Nazis were funded by the British Aristocracy, there is proof the British wanted to create a Jewish homeland for their stronghold in the middle east. There is proof that Hitler did not write mein kampf in prison. There is proof he met with Aleister Crowley, and other important Goldan Dawn and other secret society elite during his stay at a German rehab center after he was hit with mustard gas in WWI. Everyone knows Hitler did not hate the jewish people untill he was told to.

Im saying the origin of Political Zionism was bred in hate. Cultivated in hate, grew up during the Holocaust. Now is a fully grown National Terrorist racist organization. Its hard to believe some conspiracy theories, but I have an impecable understanding of history, and ethnocentricity, and I can see between the lines. I am just proposing this, to let you see what Zionism is all about even you agreed with me that its an Imperialistic terrorist organization. I was backing you up, proving the racism and evil doing of these people in charge. Ewok are you even Jewish? Do you know shit about Israel? I want a Jewish practicing individual, or someone from Israel to tell me Im wrong and back me up with facts as of why.
As for dungeons and dragons, I didn't mention any dragons. I didn't mention using wizards and wands and Lord of the Rings shit. You made that up to sound funny, but you sound like an ignorant prick. You are trying to make me into a racist, when I am not, I just can face the truth that all of the world has been a result of Ethnocentricity and racist ideals. I do not promote any of them, yet your stuck in your PC modern day liberal crap and can't see through the shit so all you can do is swallow it.

[EwokUtopia]

Hah, I know exactly what you are talking about, I read a book once that gave all this absolutly deluded paranoid shit out as a conspiracy theory, it rather amuzed me. I am not Jewish, and I oppose Israel for humanitarian and anti-imperialist reasons, not because I think their flag will summon demons, as you claimed it has the power to do. However, you are trying to make Hitler out to be some victim of a worldwide Jewish conspiracy. Ask yourself this question, if you are right, and there is some conspiracy which controls everything that you know about, and if this organization is so powerful, why do they allow you to say what you say? Wouldnt they kill you to prevent the truth from getting out? Summon up their demons to shut your open mouth? I hate Israel because it oppresses Arab Palestinians. You hate it because you see it as being the summoner of the godless asiatic hoards. You cant sit there and tell me that this isnt racist. I see through all the shit, and I know that the world is ran by evil greedy capitalist men, who use their racist ideals as assistance when they exploit the economic south. I am not a liberal, I am a socialist, get your facts straight....liberals go along with capitalism.




You are saying some truths, but you are also saying alot of bullshit. You kind of remind me of Dale Gribble from King of the Hill.

[EwokUtopia]

Tell me one thing....whos behind it all? Aliens? Satan? Gog and Magog? Hitlers brain in a jar?


Your stuck in a fantasy world, and you oppose evil thing for the wrong reasons. The sad and simple truth is that humanity and the world just isnt as fantastic as this. There is no such thing as a demon summoning symbol. If I am wrong, let Asmodai take my soul right now, Im just sitting here.


Oh hey, Im still here... where are the demons??? hmmm... perhaps....they.....just arent real?

[stuntdragon1]

this thread has gotten humorous pretty quickly. That being said, I'm not anti-semitic, but I am anti-imperialistic countries, including Israel

[EwokUtopia]

I love Jewish culture personally, and I have been described as having woody allen-like mannerisms, but the state of Israel would appaul me no matter what race or religion I am. I am not anti-white for opposing the Aparthied government of South Africa, likewise, I am not anti-semitic for opposing the Aparthied government of Israel.

[Nimrod's Apprentice]

Im only telling you what hte Encyclopedia definitions are for these symbols. I didn't sayy I beleive in demons, or anything of that nature. Im just reporting facts.
If THEY exist no they would not kill me, seeing as I am sitting in a room typing in a chat room on the internet. Only letting my theory and opinion out there. Im not trying to convert the masses or anything here man. Im just showing you an alternate theory to things. As for whos behind it, it could be the Ewoks for all I know. Plus how do you know. What right do you have to say theres no possibility solomon did harness an army of Jinn using the Solomon Seal to build the pyramids. Who knows why a folk tradition in Cairo, is the that giza pyramids were built by these very same elemental beings, and not actually human slaves. Using the exact same symbol. Plus its not a traditional Jewish symbol, this is what I was getting at. You calling this all fantasy, could be true, but it doesn't take away from that fact it is still stories handed down as fact. This ties into the whole western Genie being. A copy of these Jinn characters, whos most significant story is told not in the Aladdin, or Fisherman and the jinni story, but carried down through this Solomon's seal story. You don't have to believe it, just tell me why you don't. Instead of saying I live in a fantasy world of your making. Whatever your crazy little mind wants to think up. As for the connection between the Nazi's rise of an Occult Empire, via the Aryan Mtyhos and the fake swastika symbol borroed from ancient cultures worldwide, and Alchemy and earlier esoteric manuscripts. Its just funny how a creation of a false "Zionist" idea and return to the homeland that the Jewish people left with an ethnocentric theory driving what was now the Jewish RACE there. Under the same guise of a returning symbol of Occult importance, exactly the same as the swastika. That had been latent in Judaism, since the Middle Ages, and then outlawed previous to them since a few years after Solomon. Yet these two symbols came out of the same event. The holocaust. The swastika meaning racist white assholes. The star of david meaning jewish supremacy and a reason to take peoples homes away just for the punishment of a Totalitarian goverment miles away in Europe. It doesn't make sense. Why isn't Israel in Germany? Or Montana? Why "their" homeland, because It was initiated by the British and the Balfour Declaration. I dunno man I don't beleive in coincidence. I believe in synchronicity.

[Nimrod's Apprentice]

This is the first silly post.

[the dauer]

Hello,

mazal tov. Good luck in Eretz Yisrael.