hare krishna

[sleeping jiva]

hare krishna is the eldest religion in the world. It came in the form of Vedas 5000 years ago. The goal is to love Krishna, the Supreme Personality of Godhea.d I mean not just saying that, but actually feeling that is the point. In fact, hare krishna isn't religion at all, because it doesn apply any dogmas on people. The only point is to find out by yourself, that you are not this material body and this world is temporary and full of threefold miseries :death, illness, old age.
the best method how to obtain the state, where you can love Sri Krishna is to chant mahamantra. it goes like this:

[WeAreGod]

I find Hare Krishna-ness fastinating. I LOVE the chants. a lot. But i dunno it just sounds like there is more concentration on the miseries of living here. I, personally, decide to be joyous of life, its an honor to be here (even if its challenging as feck sometimes, but we came in being perfectly aware and willing of that).

There are worse things than suffering in my opinion. Like stagnation.

I wish i had some more Krishan chants though. Govinda Hare is my favorite.

[osiris]

hare.
krishna.

two words that have whatever meaning with which you choose to imbue them.

say nothing, and you will come to the same conclusions. don't give it a name, and it is still the same thing.

and if death, illness, and old age are so horrible, why not just kill yourself now, and give it all back to "krishna". you enjoy life more than you like to admit friend.

;)

much love

[VanAstral]

they gave me a free meal once... i was just walking down the street, saw an open door, looked in, and this family in robes and forehead dots asked me to have dinner. Says I: Cool! Thanks!
They asked me to come to their farm the next day as they were worshipping their first cow. i had to work, so I politely declined.
some people say they have no regrets. i think they're liers.
if i'm gonna worship something, it might as well be a cow... er,
maybe pig, I love bacon!
i wish i had gone to the cow worshipping. :(

[sleeping jiva]

To kill yourself is an offence to Lord Krishna, because it's like as though you were God yourself. We did lot of bad things -not because we wanted, just out of ignorance. If you think you're God, can you be beyond ignorance?

Suffering ends in this world if you develop sincere love to Sri Krishna. That is to be, who you really are -without egotism. Instead of loving yourself, love Sri Krishna, The supreme Personality of Godhead, who is everything and in everyone.
I know that this can be a great hook on desperate people to say that this is suffering and the only way is to be one of our religion. But as I said hare krishna is not a religion as we know it. The goal is to serve and think of Krishna, nothing more. We are all his parcels, therefore the divine or shall we say godish is contained in us, but as beams from the sun are not the sun itself, we are not God.

haribol!

[osiris]

suffering is ignored. this does not mean that it ends.

a marked difference.

much love :)

[WeAreGod]

whoa. I'm not a liar and i have not a single regret. I don't believe in regrets, what a strange use of energy, living in the past instead of living in the now. Every single thing, big or small, trivial or no, embarassing or painful or otherwise, its all made me the person i am right this second. And i am glad of that. I learn from everything i do, though.

And to who said something about... Okay well i forget, but i also know that we are all part of the same thing. We are all part of, we all ARE all-that-is. We are all God. We are not the supreme god above everyone else, cuz we are ALL god.

*nod* *love*

[gdkumar]

Hare Krishna !

Dear all,

Krishna is the icon of unconditional love of highest degree. When love obtains that intensity it is known as 'prem'. This prem does not discriminate, it does not see good or bad, it does not see religion, race or creed, it can not be bound by boundaries or limits. It envelops everything like what a deluge does.

Krishna tells us about that love and how to develop it. He never talked about any religion. He never criticizes us rather He gives us hopes and tells us that no matter how we are today we can definitely try and improve ourselves to get dissolved into the ocean of His divinity. He also tells us how we can do it.

With love............kumar.

[osiris]

so again even krishna seems to refute the necessity of his "krishna"-ness. he doesn;t seem to care what you call him, or seem to be a "he" at all, but just a feeling, and emanation, a spirit, flowing through. the questions, answers, representations are all written and discussed by and in the minds of humans.

much love :)

[eccofarmer]

NAMASTE AND HARI BOL


The fisrt is SANATANA DHARMA as being the fisrt and oldist.From this yes VASNAVAS SHIVITES And so for arise so i understand.
Though to me it is not who is the oldist but how it leads us to the divine.

[ChiefCowpie]

we are all Krishna...we are all God

[sleeping jiva]

Yes, we are of a godly nature. As a humans we possess higher inteligence, but for the most -we have opportunity to love Krishna. That is very rare in the cycle of reincarnations. If we were Gods, how come we fail all the time? We do mistakes, posses imperfect senses, we are lured to cheat and we fall into illusion. PLease let me quote Bhagavadgita, where Krishna explains this:

TRANSLATION

O scion of Bharata, you should understand that I am also the knower in all bodies, and to understand this body and its owner is called knowledge. That is My opinion.

PURPORT

While discussing the subject of this body and the owner of the body, the soul and the Supersoul, we shall find three different topics of study: the Lord, the 1iving entity, and matter. In every field of activities, in every body, there are two souls: the individual soul and the Supersoul. Because the Supersoul is the plenary expansion of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kåñëa, Kåñëa says, “I am also the knower, but I am not the individual owner of the body. I am the superknower. I am present in every body as the Paramätmä, or Supersoul.”

One who studies the subject matter of the field of activity and the knower of the field very minutely, in terms of this Bhagavad-gétä, can attain to knowledge.

The Lord says: “I am the knower of the field of activities in every individual body.” The individual may be the knower of his own body, but he is not in knowledge of other bodies. The Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is present as the Supersoul in all bodies, knows everything about all bodies. He knows all the different bodies of all the various species of life. A citizen may know everything about his patch of land, but the king knows not only his palace but all the properties possessed by the individual citizens. Similarly, one may be the proprietor of the body individually, but the Supreme Lord is the proprietor of all bodies. The king is the original proprietor of the kingdom, and the citizen is the secondary proprietor. Similarly, the Supreme Lord is the supreme proprietor of all bodies.

The body consists of the senses. The Supreme Lord is Håñékeça, which means controller of the senses. He is the original controller of the senses, just as the king is the original controller of all the activities of the state, and the citizens are secondary controllers. The Lord also says: “I am also the knower.” This means that He is the superknower; the individual soul knows only his particular body. In the Vedic literature, it is stated as follows:

kñeträëi hi çaréräëi béjaà cäpi çubhäçubhe
täni vetti sa yogätmä tataù kñetrajïa ucyate.

This body is called the kñetra, and within it dwells the owner of the body and the Supreme Lord who knows both the body and the owner of the body. Therefore He is called the knower of all fields. The distinction between the field of activities, the owner of activities and the supreme owner of activities is described as follows. Perfect knowledge of the constitution of the body, the constitution of the individual soul, and the constitution of the Supersoul is known in terms of Vedic literature as jïänam. That is the opinion of Kåñëa. To understand both the soul and the Supersoul as one yet distinct is knowledge. One who does not understand the field of activity and the knower of activity is not in perfect knowledge. One has to understand the position of prakåti, nature, and puruña, the enjoyer of the nature, and éçvara, the knower who dominates or controls nature and the individual soul. One should not confuse the three in their different capacities. One should not confuse the painter, the painting and the easel. This material world, which is the field of activities, is nature, and the enjoyer of nature is the living entity, and above them both is the supreme controller, the Personality of Godhead. It is stated in the Vedic language: “bhoktä bhogyaà preritäraà ca matvä sarvaà proktaà tri-vidhaà brahmam etat.” There are three Brahman conceptions: prakåti isBrahman as the field of activities, and the jéva (individual soul) is also Brahman and is trying to control material nature, and the controller of both of them is also Brahman, but He is the factual controller.

In this chapter it will be also explained that out of the two knowers, one is fallible and the other is infallible. One is superior and the other is subordinate. One who understands the two knowers of the field to be one and the same contradicts the Supreme Personality of Godhead who states here very clearly that “I am also the knower of the field of activity.” One who misunderstands a rope to be a serpent is not in knowledge. There are different kinds of bodies, and there are different owners of the bodies. Because each individual soul has his individual capacity of lording it over material nature, there are different bodies. But the Supreme also is present in them as the controller. The word ca issignificant, for it indicates the total number of bodies. That is the opinion of Çréla Baladeva Vidyäbhüñaëa: Kåñëa is the Supersoul present in each and every body apart from the individual soul. And Kåñëa explicitly says here that the Supersoul is the controller of both the field of activities and the finite enjoyer.

haribol!!

[gdkumar]

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we are all Krishna...we are all God
Dear Chiefcowpie,

It is so truly said, thanks. But you can say this only when you see Krishna in yourself and yourself in Krishna and all other beings. You can say this only when anybody's sorrows and happiness becomes your sorrows and happiness.

That is total assimilation into Krishna, that is dissolving into Krishna's divinity. Can we really do it, feel it that way ? It is extremely difficult but not impossible.
He himself tells us how we can do it and achieve oneness with Krishna.

With lots of love..........Kumar.

[gdkumar]

Dear Sleepingjiva(Pedromicho,right?),

Thank you for your beautiful and enlightening post.

I would only like to add that it is also very clearly mentioned by Him(Krishna) in the Gita that everyone's head is His head, legs and hands are His legs and hands, eyes are His eyes and so on.

It is also said that nothing can have its existence without Him being into it.

We are all Krishna alright but it is meaningless to say this without that realization and consciousness.

With lots of love...........Kumar.

[ChiefCowpie]

"you are that"

[osiris]

"But you can say this only when you see Krishna in yourself and yourself in Krishna and all other beings."

that's funny, all the other religions say the same thing about their gods.

hm.

much love :)

[sleeping jiva]

gdkumar: thanx, yes it's me pedromicho :) -sleeping soul, who is soaked in ignorance.Thank you for your great posts. You put it quite right. Please, find God in yourself, He's hidden under layers of material attachments.
osiris: indeed, we are all the same, looking for the same thing. Materialism is another religion. Even materialists are seeking Krishna, but they falsely think it's in material wealth.

[osiris]

are you saying that krishna is the real source and all the others are slight or gross misrepresentations?

much love :)

[sleeping jiva]

It is said in Bhagavadgita: everybody will return to Him. Some sooner, some later. Look at the people around -everybody's seeking happiness -that's what I'm saying. everybody's got this ideal -no one wants to suffer. Some say they like it, but it's only excuse, because they don't know what is their natural position. Passion brings suffering. If you're attached to this world you're gonna suffer, because material nature doesn't care about you -that's matter. Krishna cares. You think that material nature is Krishna, so you serve it, but the result is suffering, because mateiral nature is not Krishna. But if you surrender to Krishna you're in fact free from misery, because everything what is not related to Krishna is material nature. To surrender to Krishna isn't to go by some rules, it is more about your pure love to Him. that's the only way how to get rid of your egotism. You can't do it artificially -you need to substitute. By chanting His Holy Names you're with Him -just like that (I'm snapping with my fingers:) try it, then you have a right to say something about it. Forget the intelectual speculations for a while just sincerely chant these few words and be happy:

Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare
Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare

[gdkumar]

"But you can say this only when you see Krishna in yourself and yourself in Krishna and all other beings."

that's funny, all the other religions say the same thing about their gods.

hm.

much love http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif"........Osiris.
Dear Osiris,

Yes Osiris, it is not funny but is the beauty of all religions when read and understood properly.

This is why a true lover of God respects all religions equally because he knows that it is the same God in other names for other religions. He loves and respects all different names and forms(Deities) knowing very well that it is the same God that he loves and worships.

This is why nobody should leave or change his religion because it becomes an act of a man having good eyes but behaving like a blind man. It is an act of hurting your beloved God. He is in all religions but closest He is in your heart.
There are thousands of advices in all religions, take the ones that suit you and you feel comfortable with.For that nobody needs to change his religion. Please remember, like "all roads lead to Rome", all these advice-paths lead to Him only.

If you love Krishna you do not dislike or hate others, your true love for Krishna will make you see Krishna everywhere in every deity and being,living or dead.
It should happen the same way if you are a lover of Jesus, Buddha or any other name.

Chanting, as Sleeping jiva suggests, is a wonderful and sure way of developing the love-relationship between your God and yourself and in the process it automatically develops the same relationship with the whole world or universe or whatever you call it (Because your God is everywhere and in everything).

With lots of love...........Kumar.

[osiris]

i will end my part in this discussion by saying that you folks will one day realize all too well the debt of gratitude you owe to those that are willing to suffer so that you may make such brash generalizations.

much love :)

[gdkumar]

Let nobody on this earth suffer because of me or any body else.

Sorry for causing such a grave concern. Let there be light and happiness.

With love.......... Kumar.

[sleeping jiva]

Firstly, I'm really sorry that you're ending this discussion. Please, don't. My goal is not to argue, but share wisdom. It is said that everybody is a guru. Everybody can put you on a right path. Even children for example.

Me and gdkumar don't express our personal opinions. We are sharing, what we've learnt from the scriptures as Bhagavadgita. I don't want to put words in gdkumar's mouth, but I clearly recognize that all he's saying is in accordance with Bhagavagita. Of course, when you just parrot things and you don't really know what they mean -that's useless, but I'm saying only what I believe in and experienced myself. In the the tmes, when Sri Krishna Himself gave a lecture to Arjuna on the battlefield of Kuruksetra and it became later this book Bhagavadgita, there was no such an amount of suffering as it is today. You think that the words from Bhagavadgita bring suffering, but it is vice versa. People, who misused the message of it, made this world a living hell.

This world is full of suffering. You can't deny that. namely there are four miseries: birth, death, old age and diseases. Whatever material advancement you attain, you're hopless against those. But al the more, people add up suffering by their egotism -that's the reason of wars, violence and arguements as well. We think that we are gods, even though we don't posses any of godish qualities. there's no other way how to stop your egotism as to serve Lord Krishna. Instead of loving yourself, love Krishna. You need to substitute. Every sign of your charity, which is not done in Krishna consciousness is a waste. You're helping people in their own egotisms. You're helping them in their body attachements. Even though it seems like a good deed, from the larger perspective your efforts are pointless. The only help you can give to people is to make them Krishna conscious -make them love God.
haribol!

[ChiefCowpie]

not everyone want to merge into Krishna...some want to merge into Kali Ma

mamamamamamamamamamamamamamamama!!!!!!!!!!!!

[sleeping jiva]

yes, there are people in ignorance. The age of quarrel, the age of Kali, doesnt disturb devotees of Krishna.

[gdkumar]

Dear Osiris,

Please join back with an open and candid mind.
I am terribly dismayed by your post. 'Brash' is a very harsh word to use.
Where did I go wrong? It was just a discussion and there was no attempt
to impose any idea into anybody. If you thought otherwise it is O.K.
Let us not say or do anything today for which we will be ashamed and embarrased tomorrow.

Sorry again.

With love.............Kumar.

[gdkumar]

"not everyone want to merge into Krishna...some want to merge into Kali Ma

mamamamamamamamamamamamamamamama!!!!!!!!!!!!"........Chiefcowpie.

Dear Chiefcowpie,

Looks like things are improving.

If you want to merge into Ma Kali, you are not far away, please keep chanting

ma..ma..ma..ma..ma..ma..ma..ma..ma..ma..ma..ma.... .................

With love...........kumar.

[ChiefCowpie]

yes, there are people in ignorance. The age of quarrel, the age of Kali, doesnt disturb devotees of Krishna.
sorry but Kali Ma is not referenced in the name Kali Yuga...Kali Yuga refers to iron which is the most base metal...gold, silver, bronze...jiv jago sleeping soul

[sleeping jiva]

i'm sorry, please excuse my ignorance but anyway kali yuga is the age of quarrel.

[ChiefCowpie]

i'm not gonna excuse your ignorance...that's up to you...awaken and dispell the illusions you have propped your reality upon

[gdkumar]

Truly Kali yug is the age of silly quarrels.

With love..........Kumar.

[ChiefCowpie]

yah but sleeping jiva and i didn't have a silly argument...he said his God was better than my God

Om Narayani Om

[sleeping jiva]

lol, that's funny. gdkumar & me are trying to explain this for a long time. As soon as you love God, there's no difference. Please try to love Him sincerely & you are ok. Thanx for your advice, I'll try to overcome my illusions, which I've based my life on. In fact that is the only reason for suffering to be in illusion-maya.

[ChiefCowpie]

Please try to love Him sincerely & you are ok.
or love Her sincerely & you are ok.

Jaya Kali Ma!!!

[sleeping jiva]

as you please. :)

[gdkumar]

My son calls me 'baba' and my nephew calls me 'kaka'. I am the same man.
Dollar coin sides are Elizabath-II and Dollar-1,1996.The coin is same.

It is the old problem of 6 and 9. Problem of looking at it. When one sees it as 6 the other one at the opposite side sees it as 9. When both of them are at the same side then there is no problem, both see the same...either 6 or 9.
6 or 9 it is the same writing.
It is one God, names are Kali or Krishna, Christ or Buddha and so on.

Jai Ma Kali, Jai Sri Krishna, Jai Prabhu Jesus, Jai Prabhu Buddha............. Jai Bhagwan.

With love...................Kumar.

[Spiritforces]

I like that post :)

It's all good
Hare. Krishna.

[gdkumar]

Dear Spiritforces,

Thanks for your kind post.

With love.......Kumar.

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

I must thank you all for this post...

...I am always very interested to learn about different points of view in religion. Krishna and the ideas that thoughs who follow him have always interested me the most...I especially like it because of what was mentioned before...its all the same God no matter what you call Him and that we all have a little of Him within us...and its all just a matter of interpretation and realization. I have grown away from the idea of organized religion (how terribly ironic since my family is Roman Catholic and I was baptized into that church)...because I think that religion is what you believe and it is about your personal connection with God...no one can tell you how to love Him...just as long as you do...
... I seemed to have strayed a little off topic...but what I meant to say is thank you for the insight on Krishna...it is nice to know that some people share in my philosophy...

[gdkumar]

"I have grown away from the idea of organized religion (how terribly ironic since my family is Roman Catholic and I was baptized into that church)...because I think that religion is what you believe and it is about your personal connection with God...no one can tell you how to love Him...just as long as you do..."

Dear SvgGrdnBeauty,

You are a beautiful mind and soul. Thanks for your kind post.

We often forget that human beings are not for religions but religions are for human beings. Religion is not life. How we live our lives is religion.

I understand your feelings but please be patient and tolerant about your and all other religions. After all, all religions talk about one God only. Let us take that substance matter only and try to love Him the way we like it. After all a lover at all times tries to love and endeavours to ensure that he/she is also loved by the beloved.

And there is another lover who just wants to love without caring for what is received back. Because this lover just cannot help but love.The reasons if you ask, you hear, " I just love to love Him".

When breeze comes it carries not only fragrance,it carries some stink from somewhere as well. Same way all religions give you some happiness and some uncomfortable issues. I suppose that is the divine game. Please try to recognize the good points and accept them.

At last I would like to suggest that do not have any doubt about dear Lord Jesus. Please always remember that He comes first and Christianity comes after. The same is true for all others. Please take the substance, the yolk and the egg white.....not the shell.

Please go ahead and never stop, endless mines are ahead...copper..silver..
gold..platinum..diamond......................

With lots of love and prayers................Kumar.

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

I indeed understand what you are saying and your words are, as usual, beautiful. I never said that I do not love Jesus...no...I just chose to love Him the way that I see fit...sometimes the teachings of the Catholic church, not as a religious body...but as a governmental body, are hypocritical and that is the part of my religion that I do not like...also the fact that since there are many that are fully committed to the ways of the Catholic church: to the politics of it that I do not believe in...I am heaped with the stereotype...that is the part of organized religion that I do not like...the politics and the stereotype...I'm just trying to find my own path to enlightment...its personal and it should never have to do with politics...that, my friend, is what is unfortunate about my religion...

...I found a quote from John Lennon the other day...and it kinda reciprocates what I've been saying...and I like it:

"I believe in God, but not as one thing, not as an old man in the sky. I believe that what people call God is something in all of us. I believe that what Jesus and Mohammed and Buddha and all the rest said was right. It's just that the translations have gone wrong."- John Lennon

[Chodpa]

WOWOW!!! Lots of misconceptions here.

First, Vaishnavism is not 5,000 years old nor the first religion in the world. Wow, where did you get that idea. The Dravidian or pre-Hindu religions did include Shiva and Shakti worship but Vishnu was not a name then, nor is Vishnu mentioned in the Vedas anywhere.

Vishnu is mentioned only in Itihasa which includes the Mahabharata and various puranas.

Vaishnavism and Hare Krishnas in general are not Advaita Vedanta, or in other words, do not believe in merging into Krishna but rather believe in remaining forever dual and in thrall of Krishna, the personal form of Vishnu.

It has been theorized that Krishna worship developed from Kali/Shaktism worship, and in some parts of India Kali and Krishna are seen to be one. In fact the of each Shyam and Shyama show the very close similarity of them at least in name. Both names mean essentially "of the night." Which refers to their dark color.

Hari Krishna means "love of the dark one." The dark one is the one obscured by thought and which is the self as in, "And now you see as through a glass darkly, but one day you will see face to face," to quote the Bible. Forgive the introduction of a Bible quotation into this melange of ideas. I did find it well descriptive though.

Just some thoughts.

[sleeping jiva]

chodpa: I'm sorry if I made some mistakes. I know another translation of Krishna: All-attracting.

[sleeping jiva]

It is said in Bhagavadgita that Sri Krishna came to this world approximately 5000 years ago and gave as this wonderful book, so we can learn how to get from this world of suffering.

As soon as Sri Krishna is the Supreme God, He is our dad actually :) and the devotional service, which we as the living entities render to Him is eternal. That's what I meant by the oldest religion in the world.

It is also very hard to attain liberation from the materialistic conception of life by trying to merge into Krishna. In this service to Krishna, we engage our senses to please Him. The primal state of a living being is that he loves himself the most. By loving Krishna we don't need to artificially cut off our senses, but engage them in a natural way. It is easier to love a person than trying to love something impersonal. That's why we prepare food to Krishna, bathe the dieties, offer Him flowers as though He was present all the time. We love His various forms. :)
Bhagavadgita clearly states that we will never loose our individuality. Everybody has a different karma, which is the result of activities from our past lives. Even though Krishna is present within us in the form of Supersoul, we are not Him. We are not God, because we are not ignorance-free. :) This is not dual relationship -it is a relationship in the absolute realm, but we cannot understand that by our materialistic (dual) senses. Absolute means everything is Krishna. Even our decisions. We have only one choice: to surrender love to Him, eveything else is controled by three material modes (ignorance, passion and goodness) Had we not have individuality, we would have have difficulties to develop love for Krishna -and love to Krishna that is the basic method for attaining liberation. It is a little game Krishna plays on us. We need to work on ourselves, we need to attain love.
This is from Bhagavadgita, which is the part of Mahabharata and so the part of the Vedas. This is what Krishna Himself says:

vedähaà samatétäni

vartamänäni cärjuna

bhaviñyäëi ca bhütäni

mäà tu veda na kaçcana

veda—know; aham—I; sama—equally; atétäni—past; vartamänäni—present; ca—and; arjuna—O Arjuna; bhaviñyäëi—future; ca—also; bhütäni—living entities; mäm—Me; tu—but; veda—knows; na—not; kaçcana—anyone.

TRANSLATION

O Arjuna, as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, I know everything that has happened in the past, all that is happening in the present, and all things that are yet to come. I also know all living entities; but Me no one knows.

PURPORT

Here the question of personality and impersonality is clearly stated. If Kåñëa, the form of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is considered by the impersonalists to be mäyä, to be material, then He would, like the living entity, change His body and forget everything in His past life. Anyone with a material body cannot remember his past life, nor can he foretell his future life, nor can he predict the outcome of his present life; therefore he cannot know what is happening in past, present and future. Unless one is liberated from material contamination, he cannot know past, present and future.

Unlike the ordinary human being, Lord Kåñëa clearly says that He completely knows what happened in the past, what is happening in the present, and what will happen in the future. In the Fourth Chapter we have seen that Lord Kåñëa remembers instructing Vivasvän, the sun-god, millions of years ago. Kåñëa knows every living entity because He is situated in every living being’s heart as the Supreme Soul. But despite His presence in every living entity as Supersoul and His presence beyond the material sky, as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the less intelligent cannot realize Him as the Supreme Person. Certainly the transcendental body of Çré Kåñëa is not perishable. He is just like the sun, and mayä is like the cloud. In the material world we can see that there is the sun and that there are clouds and different stars and planets. The clouds may cover all these in the sky temporarily, but this covering is only apparent to our limited vision. The sun, moon and stars are not actually covered. Similarly, mäyä cannot cover the Supreme Lord. By His internal potency He is not manifest to the less intelligent class of men. As it is stated in the third verse of this chapter, out of millions and millions of men, some try to become perfect in this human form of life, and out of thousands and thousands of such perfected men, hardly one can understand what Lord Kåñëa is. Even if one is perfected by realization of impersonal Brahman or localized Paramätmä, he cannot possibly understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Çré Kåñëa, without being in Kåñëa consciousness.

[sleeping jiva]

I indeed understand what you are saying and your words are, as usual, beautiful. I never said that I do not love Jesus...no...I just chose to love Him the way that I see fit...sometimes the teachings of the Catholic church, not as a religious body...but as a governmental body, are hypocritical and that is the part of my religion that I do not like...also the fact that since there are many that are fully committed to the ways of the Catholic church: to the politics of it that I do not believe in...I am heaped with the stereotype...that is the part of organized religion that I do not like...the politics and the stereotype...I'm just trying to find my own path to enlightment...its personal and it should never have to do with politics...that, my friend, is what is unfortunate about my religion...

...I found a quote from John Lennon the other day...and it kinda reciprocates what I've been saying...and I like it:

"I believe in God, but not as one thing, not as an old man in the sky. I believe that what people call God is something in all of us. I believe that what Jesus and Mohammed and Buddha and all the rest said was right. It's just that the translations have gone wrong."- John Lennon




I understand and Lord Krishna says that demons are always pretending that they're very religious. That's the most deceitful, because they make God look ugly. Hare Krishna isn't a religion. It is a service. Either you love God, or not. You cannot pretend that. And yes, even though we should learn from the books and teachers, the most important is to find Supersoul (Krishna, God) within. You need to feel it. By chanting mahamantra (see below :) you can experience the pleasure, which comes with it right away. Nothing else is needed. Just your voice and sincere wish to love Him.You don't even need to believe in Krishna :):) and yet it brings liberation from your karma and love from Krishna, the great blue-skinned guy.

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

I understand and Lord Krishna says that demons are always pretending that they're very religious. That's the most deceitful, because they make God look ugly. Hare Krishna isn't a religion. It is a service. Either you love God, or not. You cannot pretend that. And yes, even though we should learn from the books and teachers, the most important is to find Supersoul (Krishna, God) within. You need to feel it. By chanting mahamantra (see below you can experience the pleasure, which comes with it right away. Nothing else is needed. Just your voice and sincere wish to love Him.You don't even need to believe in Krishna and yet it brings liberation from your karma and love from Krishna, the great blue-skinned guy.
I very much understand what you are saying...I have chanted/sung mantras before as well as hymns...they indeed do make you feel as if the world has been lifted from your shoulders...I think, after all of this time, that to sing and to listen to the stories is about the only part I like about organized religion...no one else can tell you how to love Him...you just do...by loving everyone around you...no matter how hard it is...you kinda love Him too...because I have been taught...as I'm sure we all have...that He is in us all... Thank you for your kind words :) I think through learning each others cultures and customs and that they are not too different after all will help us to bring the peace in this world that we seek. Its a hard job...but thanks to understanding people like you guys...we might be able to inch it along even more...

...hare krisna and peace be with you all :)

[sleeping jiva]

thanks for your hope & for your great soul :) peace to you and all the world. We are not different from each other.

[NightOwl1331]

I have respect for the Hare Krishnas, I really do. I respect all religions. But being a Hindu who follows the philiosophies of Advaita Vedanta, I cannot help but feel that they missed the point somewhere. It is said that God (Brahman, the Immensity) is without name, without form, indeed It is beyond all form because It created all form. Saying that Krishna is actually the supreme godhead is missing the point of that.
I was given a book about India with a Hare Krishna view on things. They spoke of the teachings that the supreme godhead is as I said, beyond all names and forms. And they even say that there are teachings that say that all forms of God are but different aspects of the supreme god. But then on the next page they talk about how in the Mahabharata Krishna says that in fact he is the supreme godhead and all other gods must bow to him. To me this is just missing the whole point. I really don't mean to offend. I love Krishna too! But I know that he is one of the many manifestations of God as are the other deities.

[sleeping jiva]

well, why do you think Hare Krishnas missed the point? There is only one person, who controls all demigods. If you praying to demigods so you can have something -that's materialism. Of course it works, but materialistic way of thinking is an attachment to maya. We can never understand Krishna, because he is the creator of everything, but we can love Him. Love is the most important thing. If you don't love, you're practically doomed to selfishness. If you read some of the Krishna related literature, you may think that they say two different things, but the truth is Krishna is everything -even the impersonal philosophy. He's also maya. He's the controler of the three modes of material nature: ignorance, passion, goodness. We think in the terms of "me" and the world, the truth is Krishna is me and Krishna is the world. Brahmajoti is the radiance, which comes from Krishna. If you want to merge with it, you actually can, but there's still long way to go, until you may find the blessing in form of devotioanl service to lord Krishna. Hare Krishnas serve to Krishna directly. Why should you go by stairs, when you can use an elevator? -as Srila Prabhupada said :) Why should we pray to gods for material things, when these things are the reason of our entanglement in this world full of misery? Love Krishna and selfishness will fade away.

Thank you for your respect for Krishnas. I respect you :)

[NightOwl1331]

Let me explain what I mean more in depth. In the upanishads there is the idea of Brahman. That is not so much a name for a God, but a way to talk about the formless aspect of God. The formless aspect is what underlies all names, all forms, everything in existence. It has to be beyond form because it created all forms. And it has no one face, no one personality that we can know because it is beyond all forms. Let's put it this way...if God created everything then God would not be subject to those laws. If God created time and space and all the dualities of this world, then God is not subject to those. If God were, then something else would have created those things and then we're not talking about the same thing anymore. See what I mean?
That's the point I'm talking about. That the supreme godhead is beyond all forms because it created all forms. Calling it Krishna and giving it an image and a personality is missing that point. And if the Hare Krishnas are talking about the same ideas, then calling it Krishna instead of Brahman is just an ego thing. Just like saying "my god is the real god and yours is not." Doesn't matter what name you call it if you are talking about the same thing. And if they do have all those same ideas then its still Hinduism, they just call Brahman a different name and have some different practices...like all other Hindus. To me the Hare Krishnas are no different than the Vaishnavites or Shaivites or any other sect that jumps up and says "No...God is called by this name, not that name!" And they can't get along because of it. And they're missing the whole point. See what I mean? And again...I do not want to offend. It just makes me so sad to see people not getting along when they're talking about the same things and just using different words for it. There are many paths up the mountain but they all lead to the same summit.

Try reading the Upanishads, Alain Danielou's theories of Hindu Polytheism, and the Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna. They explain it much better than I can.

[gdkumar]

Dear NightOwl1331,

Thanks for the beautiful post. Please calm down.

From your post I can easily understand that Sri Ramakrishna is talking through you. Such is His grace and compassion. You are the blessed one.

It is so tiring and frustrating at times that we love the same God but we behave as if it is not one but all different Gods. Just different names have caused all the problems because we have not seen God. By the names we want to establish that my name is right and my God is the complete God.

Had it been only the formless God(Brahma) probably there would have been lesser problems.

I love Krishna, I just love Him. I love Him not because He is God, how do I know whether He is God or not until and unless someday He tells me. I just cannot help but love Him. I do not know the reason. We all love babies, why we do not know.We do not ask for the babies' names,religion, cast or creed.
We just love babies.

Let others also love Kali, Bishnu, Allah or Christ as intensely as possible.

Why bring the name of God. God is a far distant thing.
Let us first of all learn to love with all sincerity and heart then God will come near in our hearts to tell us what is what.

Interpretation of the Gita or any other book should be easily understood by all of us but it is not possible without His grace and compassion.That is the divine game. Krishna says He is God and He is in the heart of every being, He is everything, without Him nothing can exist.Let us accept if we believe in the Gita.

So Krishna is inside a goat also and the goat's legs are His legs,head is His head, mouth is His mouth and eyes are His eyes and so on, meaning that He only has become the goat. Now if anybody says that goat is God, should we jump up and say ,"No,only Krishna is God."?

I love SleepingJeeva. I am sure he knows Krishna only and intensely loves Him.
By His Grace and compassion he shall realize that I have no intention to hurt him or anybody else. I myself cannot do without Krishna.

I miss Looking Somewhere Distant. He could have greatly helped all of us. If he has changed name I hope, he will show up now.

Jaya Gopala, Jaya Govinda, Jaya Murari.

With love and prayers............Kumar.

[sleeping jiva]

oh thank you gdkumar deeply.

you're so helpful! I wouldn't say it in a better way. I'm always so happy when you join this discussion. I love you. You said it all. Love is the most important thing. If you love everything that means if you love God, you cannot be selfish. And if you really do love God, you have no problems with Krishna, or Jesus, Allah, Budha names, because it is the same thing. I feel that by the help of Gita, you can be better in whatever God you believe in. You can be better Christian for example. Form and name are still in our material terminology, because one is percieved by eye and the second by ear. Our senses are limited, so we can never see/hear the complete truth, but when you love God, you see Him everywhere. Please love God, because that is the only true love. Haribol!

I miss Looking Somewhere Distant's great insights too, let's hope he will return. wonder where he is.

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

oh thank you gdkumar deeply.

you're so helpful! I wouldn't say it in a better way. I'm always so happy when you join this discussion. I love you. You said it all. Love is the most important thing. If you love everything that means if you love God, you cannot be selfish. And if you really do love God, you have no problems with Krishna, or Jesus, Allah, Budha names, because it is the same thing. I feel that by the help of Gita, you can be better in whatever God you believe in. You can be better Christian for example. Form and name are still in our material terminology, because one is percieved by eye and the second by ear. Our senses are limited, so we can never see/hear the complete truth, but when you love God, you see Him everywhere. Please love God, because that is the only true love. Haribol!

I miss Looking Somewhere Distant's great insights too, let's hope he will return. wonder where he is.
I love you too jdkumar! And sleeping jiva...I very much agree with and love you too! Love and hugs all around :)

[sleeping jiva]

Such is the power of Krishna related topics :)

You're certainly a special person SvgGrdn Beauty. May the wisdom and love never abandon you. As Sri Krishna says: "The one who does good won't be ever overcome by evil."

I also would like to thank NightOwl and please her to continue with her points of view, so we can discuss more.

[NightOwl1331]

Dear NightOwl1331,
From your post I can easily understand that Sri Ramakrishna is talking through you. Such is His grace and compassion. You are the blessed one.


You're the 3rd person to tell me that in the past month. A great change has come over me recently. I can see the unity of all religions and it brings such pain to me that people are always in disagreement. I have this feeling that I want to tell everyone that everything is fine; there is no need to worry! God does exist! I see God in everything! God is not some guy up in the clouds, God is right here. We are a part of God and we have never been nor will we ever be seperate from It. I just want to somehow help people to understand that. I think one of the first steps is to realize that names are just that...names. People seem to forget that. A rose by any other name smells just as sweet.
I am familiar with the Bhagavad Gita, but I think the message is more important than the fact that someone with the name "Krishna" said it. God has many faces in its form as the Divine Multiplicity. I happen to love Krishna more than I can possibly express, but I do not think that is God's ultimate form because I feel that God is beyond form. God is beyond human ideas and we could never grasp the ultimate reality of God. That would be like trying to see the whole universe from where I'm sitting here in Florida.
It seems that most people see that other people call God by a different name so they feel that those people are wrong and they never look past the names and discover the underlying unity of all religions. I see much more similarity in religions than I do difference. As I've said...there are many paths up the mountain, but they all lead to the same summit. I think that whatever path you're on is fine, but problems arise when people start to feel that there is only one path. Here is how I see it...
We can never see the whole form of a statue at one time. We never see the whole of any 3-dimentional object at one time. We can see the back, the front, the profile...but not all at once. But we can walk around the statue and build up an image in our mind of what the whole form looks like, but we never actually see the whole form at one time. And if one person were to look only at the front and one look only at the back then those two people would surely be in some disagreement about what that statue is like. You could say that God is like that statue, we can never grasp the whole form. And the different paths and methods are like looking at God from different angles. And people may arrive at seemingly contradictory conslusions because they are only seeing one angle. But if we can understand that these are just different angles then we can start to build up some conception of the true nature of things. And that, to me, is a beautiful thing...the thought that there are all these people on earth trying to get a glimpse of those different angles. That is how my mind works at least. :)

[gdkumar]

Dear Sleeping Jiva,

Thank you so much for your kind post.
Honestly it is a great relief for me.

Suddenly there is a blissful feeling, everything is so beautiful. A feeling of getting drowned into the ocean of love and serenity. Thank you again.

Glory to my Guru and all for enabling me to experience this feeling.

With love........Kumar.

[gdkumar]

Dear SvgGrdnBeauty,

Thank you for your kind post.

They say, simplicity is the best quality of a human being and simplicity is the first sign of enlightment. My dear beautiful soul, your simplicity touches my heart.

May God fulfil all your cherished wishes.
With love.......Kumar.

[gdkumar]

Dear NightOwl1331,

It is a wonderful post! Thank you.

You have already gone so deep into the subject! No wonder, your vision is so clear. To attain your level of understanding people spend their whole lives. It is so pleasing to note that you are so rich in your thoughts at this tender age.

I find a surprising similarity with Know1nozme.I find same maturity, style of writing and command over the language.

However, you have said it all so beautifully.It has immensely helped me and I hope this post will help and enrich all other seekers as well.

May God fulfil all your wishes.

With love........Kumar.

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

Aww...all you guys...thank you so much. I am indeed learning new things and I thank you all for your beautiful words as I try and find my way back from the dark cloud of materialism...this time it is with new eyes and new discovery...

...you are all indeed beautiful souls...keep it up...it is people like you who have the power to change the world!

[sleeping jiva]

Nightowl: iI really liked your thingy about 3-dimensional objects and how we can never see them in the whole. That's truly the most interesting realization I've bumped into for the recent time.

I was reading Bhagavadgita the other night and I was amazed how clearly Srila Prabhupada explains the importance of personal understanding of God. In fact Krishna says that it is possible to go by the impersonal path too. My point is, Hare Krishna can never be a religion because it as the only one accepts all manifestations of God. Therefore it's not true, that it would claim Krishna as the only way. It explains why this love to God is so important by logical explanations. Even though, the devotional service is hard to understand if you don't practice it, there are plenty of arguments which explain it for non-devotees in the books of Srila Prabhupada.
Moreover, I have to react on your claim that Bhagavadgita is manipulated by people. The message is carried from generation to generation by parampara -succession of the spiritual teachers. In order to preserve the words of Krishna as they were uttered by Him on the battlefield of Kuruksetra, the message of Bhagavadgita was given to Arjuna, who heard this message as first, then Arjuna gave it his disciple and so on until it reached Srila Prabhupada. These teachers weren't cheaters, they not only understood this message on intellectual platform, they lived by the principles of devotional service. There are lot of people, who changed the words of Bhagavadgita so they can appeal to masses -they left out some of the strict regulations of Krishna so they can achieve material succes(either fame, money or both). But the Gita with commentary from Srila Prabhupada is unchanged and appears in the exact same form as it was explained by Sri Krishna Himself. Of course you can say that it is not truth, that Vaishnavas adjusted Krishna's words but you need to prove that before accusing of such a horrible crime.


Here's the passage I've found in Gita, I hope you'll understand it more after. (and you'll see the point of Hare Krishnas :):) )


TEXT 5

TEXT

©e-Xaae_iDak-TarSTaezaMaVYa¢-aSa¢-ceTaSaaMa( )
AVYa¢-a ih GaiTaduR"%& dehviÙrvaPYaTae )) 5 ))

kleço ’dhikataras teñäm

avyaktäsakta-cetasäm

avyaktä hi gatir duùkhaà

dehavadbhir aväpyate

kleçaù—trouble; adhikataraù—more troublesome; teñäm—of them; avyakta—unmanifested; äsakta—being attached; cetasäm—of those whose minds; avyaktä—unmanifested; hi—certainly; gatiù duùkham—progress is troublesome; dehavadbhiù—ofthe embodiments; aväpyate—achieve.

TRANSLATION

For those whose minds are attached to the unmanifested, impersonal feature of the Supreme, advancement is very troublesome. To make progrese in that discipline is always difficult for those who are embodied.

PURPORT

The group of transcendentalists who follow the path of the inconceivable, unmanifested, impersonal feature of the Supreme Lord are called jïäna-yogés, and persons who are in full Kåñëa consciousness, engaged in devotional service to the Lord, are called bhakti-yogés. Now, here the difference between jïäna-yoga and bhakti-yoga isdefinitely expressed. The process of jïäna-yoga, although ultimately bringing one to the same goal, is very troublesome, whereas the path of bhakti-yoga, the process of being in direct service to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is easier and is natural for the embodied soul. The individual soul is embodied since time immemorial. It is very difficult for him to simply theoretically understand that he is not the body. Therefore, the bhakti-yogé accepts the Deity of Kåñëa as worshipable because there is some bodily conception fixed in the mind, which can thus be applied. Of course, worship of the Supreme Personality of Godhead in His form within the temple is not idol worship. There is evidence in the Vedic literature that worship may be saguëa and nirguëa—of the Supreme possessing or not possessing attributes. Worship of the Deity in the temple is saguëa worship, for the Lord is represented by material qualities. But the form of the Lord, though represented by material qualities such as stone, wood, or oil paint, is not actually material. That is the absolute nature of the Supreme Lord.

A crude example may be given here. We may find some mailboxes on the street, and if we post our letters in those boxes, they will naturally go to their destination without difficulty. But any old box, or an imitation, which we may find somewhere, which is not authorized by the post office, will not do the work. Similarly, God has an authorized representation in the Deity form, which is called arca-vigraha. This arca-vigraha isan incarnation of the Supreme Lord. God will accept service through that form. The Lord is omnipotent and all-powerful; therefore, by His incarnation as arca-vigraha, He can accept the services of the devotee, just to make it convenient for the man in conditioned life.

So, for a devotee, there is no difficulty in approaching the Supreme immediately and directly, but for those who are following the impersonal way to spiritual realization, the path is difficult. They have to understand the unmanifested representation of the Supreme through such Vedic literatures as the Upaniñads, and they have to learn the language, understand the nonperceptual feelings, and they have to realize all these processes. This is not very easy for a common man. A person in Kåñëa consciousness, engaged in devotional service, simply by the guidance of the bona fide spiritual master, simply by offering regulative obeisances unto the Deity, simply by hearing the glories of the Lord, and simply by eating the remnants of foodstuffs offered to the Lord, realizes the Supreme Personality of Godhead very easily. There is no doubt that the impersonalists are unnecessarily taking a troublesome path with the risk of not realizing the Absolute Truth at the ultimate end. But the personalist, without any risk, trouble, or difficulty, approaches the Supreme Personality directly. A similar passage appears in Çrémad-Bhägavatam. It is stated there that if one has to ultimately surrender unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead (This surrendering process is called bhakti.), but instead takes the trouble to understand what is Brahman and what is not Brahman and spends his whole life in that way, the result is simply troublesome. Therefore it is advised here that one should not take up this troublesome path of self-realization because there is uncertainty in the ultimate result.

A living entity is eternally an individual soul, and if he wants to merge into the spiritual whole, he may accomplish the realization of the eternal and knowledgeable aspects of his original nature, but the blissful portion is not realized. By the grace of some devotee, such a transcendentalist, highly learned in the process of jïäna-yoga, may come to the point of bhakti-yoga, or devotional service. At that time, long practice in impersonalism also becomes a source of trouble, because he cannot give up the idea. Therefore an embodied soul is always in difficulty with the unmanifest, both at the time of practice and at the time of realization. Every living soul is partially independant, and one should know for certain that this unmanifested realization is against the nature of his spiritual blissful self. One should not take up this process. For every individual living entity the process of Kåñëa consciousness, which entails full engagement in devotional service, is the best way. If one wants to ignore this devotional service, there is the danger of turning to atheism. Thus this process of centering attention on the unmanifested, the inconceivable, which is beyond the approach of the senses, as already expressed in this verse, should never be encouraged at any time, especially in this age. It is not advised by Lord Kåñëa.

[NightOwl1331]

Moreover, I have to react on your claim that Bhagavadgita is manipulated by people.
I never said that. I said that what is more important to me is the words in the text, not the fact that it was Krishna who said it. Each person who reads a certain text is going to get something different out of it and that's fine. And I think that our understanding of things increases over time. I am in the habit of rereading certain texts because each time I read them I get something different out of them.

And there are different paths for everyone. I feel comfortable on the path of knowledge. It fits with me. Maybe it is troublesome for some, but it does not seem that way to me. It is the right path for me. I don't have to struggle to be on it, it comes naturally. And I understand that the path of love is not any worse or better than any other path. For me Bhakti yoga is fraught with difficulties. If it works for others then that's wonderful. :)

I feel that, no matter what path you are on, it is important to realize that God is with and without form. We are part of God, as is this universe with all of its material forms and names. Everything is part of God. All things spring from God, so there can exist no object or idea that is not divine in its nature. Any name or form that a worshipper can conceive of is all part of God. But God is not just that. God is Its material form and Its Immense, unknowable, formlessness. And I think that without knowing of both then you are only seeing one side of the coin. But this is the viewpoint of a jnana yogi. Any thoughts?

[SpringSnow]

'Hare Krishna' is a devotional religion fit for slavish natures, a religious regurgitation in an age of decay. It is a monotheist attempt to interpret the Aryan warrior message of the Bhagavad and sell it to the Judeo-Christian masses.

Mind you, I'm not criticizing people in the movement: if chanting mantras in a foreign language is what makes you feel spiritual, good for you. I just don't see how Hare Krishna (100% Semitic in spirit) is significantly different from the devotional, ethical religion of Christianity (also fit for slavish natures, as a guy named Nietzsche observed some time ago...). Different book, same message of submission to universalist monotheism.

[cerridwen]

I went downtown once to watch the fire works, and these Krishna's about my age were all dancing together, singing their chant... I started dancing with them! It was a lot of fun... Ah, what a good group of people.... Always happy!

[sleeping jiva]

Night Owl: I definetely agree with you in every aspect. I don't see just one side of a coin. :) Maybe I do sometimes :) -but that's ignorance. The path of knowledge for me is the same as the path of love, because only by love (I mean pure love not because you want something) you can be given knowledge, and only by developing your knowledge you can attain a state, when you love with no interuption. Yeah, God is everywhere, some people just think that He's not and that makes it harder for them. Because then they're in chaos. Spring Snow: Nietzche was a devotee of Krishna. He said it in one of his books: "If I believed in God, he would have to dance." Well, I was reading papers the other time and Pope banned dancing during masses the other time. Hare Krishnas dance a lot :) ,also they simply cannot eat meat. In fact I'd say that Hare Krishnas are even more Christians than Chrisitans. Jesus said: "Thou shalt not kill!"as one of his first commands. Well, animal slughterhouses are stillgoing on in the Christian west.
Where there is a slave, there must be a master. Hare Krishnas master is Krishna, materialistic people's master is greed. Either you serve Krishna, or you serve greed. You're certainly not a master. If you'd been a master , your senses wouldn't have control over you. Nietzche is one of my favourite philosophers and deeply admire him. His points are not very different from Bhagavadgita. Truly - a great soul!

[ChiefCowpie]

Jesus said: "Thou shalt not kill!"as one of his first commands.
it was actually a mosaic code and not from jesus...jesus spoke in parables and not commands as well...he was a rather cryptic dude and so the interpretations of his teachings are wide and varied as well as what became his teachings has been edited

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

it was actually a mosaic code and not from jesus...jesus spoke in parables and not commands as well...he was a rather cryptic dude and so the interpretations of his teachings are wide and varied as well as what became his teachings has been edited
He actually had two commandments...they are taught as the "Laws of Love"...one is Love God with your whole heart, whole soul, and whole body and the other was to Love your neighbor as you love your God...other than that...he did speak in parables...

[ChiefCowpie]

"Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.This is the first and greatest commandment.And the second is like unto it, thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." Matthew 22: 37-40

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

"Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.This is the first and greatest commandment.And the second is like unto it, thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." Matthew 22: 37-40
That was it! hehe...I was close...it was mind not body...ah well...

[BlackBillBlake]

I'd like to come in here and say that the Hare Krishna movement as brought to the west by A.c. Bhaktivedanta has had major problems, and continues to have major problems with its' so-called gurus, many of whom have 'fallen' from grace and from their positions in the movement, and some of whom have been implicated in serious criminal activity, including drug dealing, child-abuse. prostitution.


This is a fact, and it is also a fact that the Krishna Consciousness movement represents only one fact of the whole body of Hindu philosophy with regard to Krishna. They are what would be characterized in the west as fundamentalists, but the truth is they can't even agree among themselves!

Two Links:

http://www.iskconirm.com/


http://mitglied.lycos.de/gbc/black/bogus4.htm

The second of these details some of the mis-deeds of the bogus HK 'gurus'.

[sleeping jiva]

I was never a member of ISCKON, I just read Bhaktivedanta's books, yet I consider them a good thing to be -they spread Krishna consciousness and that's how one of the prints of Bhagavadgita came to me :). I was blessed, now I see it all. I don't feel very learned about Krishna, but I'm trying to put this question in front of you: Are you able to say any opinion about Krishna, when you don't know what is it about? Can you judge without knowing it deeper?
What is knowing it deeper?
When I started reading Bhagavadgita I was simply trying to find a substitute for drugs I was using (psychedelics), because I knew that one day I wouldn't be able to get the same buzz. I was open. I didn't believe in God, but I believed that I'm not the one who knows everything. When I started reading the first thing, which strucked me was Srila Bhaktivedanta as though saying: Love Krishna, otherwise you won't be able to understand. To understand logically is good, but your senses will overcome even your inteligence. So I said to myself - I'm gonna love Krishna, if it's true I'll understand better, if it's not I'll go by a different path. It's nothing you have to write with your blood on a lease :) It's just that easy. You say to yourself: I love you, the one, who is everything. I love everything. you just start to take your fight against egotism seriously. I'm still in this and so far I wrote to many forums -the reactions were very similar: "Hare Krishna is not good period." but nobody had arguments for saying that. They say: "It forces you to love and they're not logical. " but their reaction doesn't seem logical to me -how can you say without experiencing? Especially when the experience is so easy to achieve? Just chant the mahamantra and explore it by yourself. Don't let others control your mind! For me people saying: The image of Hare Krishna I have in my head is not good. If you'd studied (or at least tried to chant mahamantra (see below)) Bhagavadgita or Srimad Bhagavatam and then said : this is not bad, because that and that. I would take your opinion as valid. But we devotees know that as soon as you taste the nectar of loving service to Lord Sri Krsihna your heart will melt. :)

Those crimes have nothing to do with Krishna consciousness. If you studied Bhagavadgita you'd know that in Krishna consciousness, the first step is to control your senses. Fundamentalists -what does it mean? That Krishna devotees make bombs? hehehe just kiddin', but we don't force our belief on anybody -that is a fact. It is one of the devotees principles: Don't confuse materialists! It is an offense to preach about glory of the Holy Names to non-devotees.
Have you ever meet devotees, talk to them, ever been in a temple? have you read Bhagavadgita with purports of Srila Bhaktivedanta? . If not, you're not eligible to say this is Krishna consciousness.Srila Prabhupada dedicated a great amount in his books to explain that demons are exploiting Bhagavadgita and the message of Lord Sri Krishna. If somebody acts agianst the scriptures he's not a guru, but a cheater. We should always question our master, not just blindly obey. We should be very polite though, because you can make an offense.

Be blessed!
Haribol!

[BlackBillBlake]

Sleeping Jiva - I have read many of Srila Prabhupada's books over a period of many years, I have often met Devotees and I have had very positive experiences in connection with Sri Krishna. I am not criticizing Prabhupada as a phoney, only those who have sought to occupy the position of Guru on false pretences.

A close freind of mine is a former Devotee of one of the eleven sucessors who claimed they were appointed by prabhupada to be Initiating Gurus after his passing from this world, Jayatirtha. He subsequently split with the mainstream movement and told his followers to take LSD to see Krishna. Jayatirtha was later murdered in a gruesome manner by another follower who it is claimed, had become mentally ill. The followers who were left have mainly left the HK movement, and some have had many problems as a result of their experiences.

I myself met one of the now 'fallen' gurus - Gurudeva, at Croombe court in England in the early 1980's. At the time, he struck me as one devoid of any spirirual prescence whatsoever, a total phoney. Later, he absconded with a female follower and a large amount of money. I believe he eventually faced charges of embezellment.

It is clear that the actions of these people would have come in for severe censure were Prabhupada still around. In their cases, and perhaps in many others, it is clear that bad things have been done, with no motive other than gross personal gain, sensual pleasure, and agrandizement of persons with no spiritual realization or Knowlege.

It is not enough to simply repeat platitudes, all of this philosophy is useless unless put intp actual practice. Facts are facts, and no amount of causistry can change them.

It seems to me that the Iskcon Reform people represent the only hope for the movement in the west.

But I repeat also my previous point, that Gadiya Vaishnavism represents only one small sect within the vast Hindu tradition, and perhaps a narrow and dogmatic one at that.

[YogaLady]

Sleeping Jiva - I have read many of Srila Prabhupada's books over a period of many years, I have often met Devotees and I have had very positive experiences in connection with Sri Krishna. I am not criticizing Prabhupada as a phoney, only those who have sought to occupy the position of Guru on false pretences.

A close freind of mine is a former Devotee of one of the eleven sucessors who claimed they were appointed by prabhupada to be Initiating Gurus after his passing from this world, Jayatirtha. He subsequently split with the mainstream movement and told his followers to take LSD to see Krishna. Jayatirtha was later murdered in a gruesome manner by another follower who it is claimed, had become mentally ill. The followers who were left have mainly left the HK movement, and some have had many problems as a result of their experiences.

I myself met one of the now 'fallen' gurus - Gurudeva, at Croombe court in England in the early 1980's. At the time, he struck me as one devoid of any spirirual prescence whatsoever, a total phoney. Later, he absconded with a female follower and a large amount of money. I believe he eventually faced charges of embezellment.

It is clear that the actions of these people would have come in for severe censure were Prabhupada still around. In their cases, and perhaps in many others, it is clear that bad things have been done, with no motive other than gross personal gain, sensual pleasure, and agrandizement of persons with no spiritual realization or Knowlege.

It is not enough to simply repeat platitudes, all of this philosophy is useless unless put intp actual practice. Facts are facts, and no amount of causistry can change them.

It seems to me that the Iskcon Reform people represent the only hope for the movement in the west.

But I repeat also my previous point, that Gadiya Vaishnavism represents only one small sect within the vast Hindu tradition, and perhaps a narrow and dogmatic one at that.

I disagree completely with the last comment about dogma, but also know why Hare Krishna devotees are sometimes viewed that way. The rest, I basically agree with.

What were devotees thinking when the new gurus were "appointed?" Prabhupada spent years upon years saying never to vote anyone in as guru, thats not how to select anyone as qualified as guru, yet we fell for it? Then again, they lied to us, cheated, said it was Prabhuapda's instructions. It was not. His instruction was that these guys be ritivk, thats all. That means that everyone still is his disciple, because he could not see anyone else qualified so he still has to take our karma on his head. Yet is lovingly willing accepted. These "authorities" to this day do not follow that instruction and even fight it tooth and nail, quick to make you suffer or kick you out of the temple if you dare to say you are a "ritvik" devotee. They dont want to give up power or position.

Dont please to confuse them or their actions, with Prabhupada or what he started. What he originally began is pure, was pure, remains pure (not in the puritanical sense of the word, but in trasncendental sense of the word, unchanged by human hands). What is going on now is not the same movement Prabhupada started. Thats also why you see so many weird things said about what people 'think' we believe, even on this thread, cuz of the strange new preaching and new management since he left or appears to have left. They don't repeat what he taught, but preach controling, manipulating things which makes people think we are mindless zombies, or some other strange beliefs, but its not their fault. Its whats being taught these days. Its not the truth of what we believe though. Too bad such misgivings are being accepted even by open minded hippies, and they dont check it out more deeply and see what really went down. That is done to the govt so hope some hppies will understand we wound up with a govt too, and they did all this to us.

YL

[sleeping jiva]

I know nothing about those "fallen" gurus. I heard something here and there, but I have no clue about it. The deeds they committed have nothing to do with Prabhupada's books in my opinion. Yes, the victims are a miserable thing and I'm deeply sorry for the suffering they must have come through, but the worst thing is that demons spread this horrible propaganda and they distorted Prabhupada's message. I think that is even worse than to be indifferent to the teachings of Krishna. But I think Prabhupada himself said: Just read my books, you'll find everything there. We should always ask for unclear things. The master is Lord Krishna, we should obey Him and serve Him! That's why it can't be dogma. In dogma you have to obey materialistic people, who don't like questioning. The pure devotee (in my opinion) should be able to explain everything also on intelectual basis.

[YogaLady]

I know nothing about those "fallen" gurus. I heard something here and there, but I have no clue about it. The deeds they committed have nothing to do with Prabhupada's books in my opinion. Yes, the victims are a miserable thing and I'm deeply sorry for the suffering they must have come through, but the worst thing is that demons spread this horrible propaganda and they distorted Prabhupada's message. I think that is even worse than to be indifferent to the teachings of Krishna. But I think Prabhupada himself said: Just read my books, you'll find everything there. We should always ask for unclear things. The master is Lord Krishna, we should obey Him and serve Him! That's why it can't be dogma. In dogma you have to obey materialistic people, who don't like questioning. The pure devotee (in my opinion) should be able to explain everything also on intelectual basis.

Yes, yes, just read his books. How sublime and enlightening his books are! Though we also have to clean up the mess made by these others cuz just look and see, even here the hippies think Hare Krishna's are just people who 'need' someone to follow, or need a mantra to chant and become zombies, or our 'religion' is a dogma. None of which Prabhuada taught! Twisted, not by them, but those who spoke to them maybe. Who knows. What a mess we did not make but somehow have to do the cleaing up for Lord Caitanya.

YL

[sleeping jiva]

We should not judge a book by its cover. When somebody tells you: "That is that!" You should always question him. Don't be stupid, realise, it is always your individual path, don't make others to make decisions for you. Guru is a great person, but he's supossed to awaken God consciousness within you. It is never "öut" there, it's always "inside" of you. You need to experience it on your own. I think that was a part of Prabhupada's message. Just chant and make a relation with God yourself, you don't need anything to get you there. The books he wrote were full of this, therefore they can't be treated as something you "need". It's not that materialistic realm. They're totally pure. If your eyes are dirty, you simply cannot see them as they are, cuz you see dirt everywhere.

[sleeping jiva]

Black Bill Blake: I'm sorry for my words on your account. That's great you read Prabhupada's books. You're certinaly enlightened! I was just saying that to everybody -it wasn't really to you, if you read them. Please forgive my anger, it was not addressed to you, but to those who judge without knowing the object of their judgement.

[YogaLady]

We should not judge a book by its cover. When somebody tells you: "That is that!" You should always question him. Don't be stupid, realise, it is always your individual path, don't make others to make decisions for you. Guru is a great person, but he's supossed to awaken God consciousness within you. It is never "öut" there, it's always "inside" of you. You need to experience it on your own. I think that was a part of Prabhupada's message. Just chant and make a relation with God yourself, you don't need anything to get you there. The books he wrote were full of this, therefore they can't be treated as something you "need". It's not that materialistic realm. They're totally pure. If your eyes are dirty, you simply cannot see them as they are, cuz you see dirt everywhere.

Yes. What many dont know, even in ISKCON itself, is that when the deovtees would chant "Jai Prabhupada" over and over, though this is bona fide, but he would not be so much fond of that and even would tell them to chant Hare Krishna - Gods name.

YL

[BlackBillBlake]

I think that Prabhupada's books are a valuable contribution to our understanding of Krishna, and it seems he personally stuck to the rules. My complaint on this level is that none of the so called successors have done so, and there is some dispute as to whether Prabhupada actually intended them to become initiating gurus. According to the ISCKON reform movement people, they were supposed only to be Ritviks, a kind of lesser position where they would initiate in the name of Prabhupada.
If you are not aware of the controversy, please check out the links in my original post on this subject. A very good free magazine is available from ISKCONIRM.
Also though, there is little doubt in my mind that the Krishna'a are dogmatic, and inclined too much to believe what they've been told rather than what they really know to be the truth - and as I say, Gaudiya Vaishnavism is only one among many Hindu sects. Why should one believe them and not any of the others? Because they claim it's the highest? But so, for example , do Roman Catholics. It is certainly unwise to settle on this without checking out other versions according to other paths.

[SpringSnow]

I comletely agree with your points, BlackBillBlake.

I believe devotional religions (including Vaishnavism) may be good for some people or some ethnic groups, but definitely not for all. The Hare Krishna movement's attempt to universalize certain Hindu practices has much to do with the influence of Christianity and its proselytizing (missionary, monotheistic, intolerant) spirit on Srila Prabhupada.

[YogaLady]

I comletely agree with your points, BlackBillBlake.

I believe devotional religions (including Vaishnavism) may be good for some people or some ethnic groups, but definitely not for all. The Hare Krishna movement's attempt to universalize certain Hindu practices has much to do with the influence of Christianity and its proselytizing (missionary, monotheistic, intolerant) spirit on Srila Prabhupada.

Thank you SpringSnow for your post, tho I feel compelled to point out some misunderstandings. Hare Krishan's do not claim to be Hindu's at all, and the practice is nondogmatic. But if you consider committment as dogmatic, then I guess we fit there. lol I also dont understand whats so wrong with wanting to universalize God or a spiriutal path that is sublime. This universalizing doesn't mean we are saying you (or anyone) has to agree, even its ok to disagree, but those are our teachings. No one has to like them, but they should know them if going to criticize them. I mean, saying we are good for "some" people sort of sounds like those people are the loosers or spiriutal weaklings. lol Maybe thats not what was intended.

And prosylitizing - all pure devotees of all religions have done that, or instructed followers to do it. Seems to be what God wants, tho I will agree there are many who don't know how and can therefore be very annoying, and dsirespectful of others beliefs.

I haven't read BlackBillBlakes post, so can't say anything yet.

YL

[YogaLady]

I think that Prabhupada's books are a valuable contribution to our understanding of Krishna, and it seems he personally stuck to the rules. My complaint on this level is that none of the so called successors have done so, and there is some dispute as to whether Prabhupada actually intended them to become initiating gurus. According to the ISCKON reform movement people, they were supposed only to be Ritviks, a kind of lesser position where they would initiate in the name of Prabhupada.
If you are not aware of the controversy, please check out the links in my original post on this subject. A very good free magazine is available from ISKCONIRM.
Also though, there is little doubt in my mind that the Krishna'a are dogmatic, and inclined too much to believe what they've been told rather than what they really know to be the truth - and as I say, Gaudiya Vaishnavism is only one among many Hindu sects. Why should one believe them and not any of the others? Because they claim it's the highest? But so, for example , do Roman Catholics. It is certainly unwise to settle on this without checking out other versions according to other paths.

BlackBillBlake

I completely agree with all you say about the so called successors. Its a fact that they try to hide where Prabhupada never told them to be initiating guru's. And yes, I'm aware of the controversy. That is why I posted as I did, that they chagned so much of what Prabhupada taught. Thanks for posting the IRM link though. Many devotees knew about this before they existed because there has been such a deviation from Prabhuapda, which has a lot of kindhearted devotees angry and fried. Its also why many new to the Hare Krishna philosophy do not know what Prabhupada's true teachings are these days. Not only are these new guys initiating, they've even changed his books!

As for being the only way, I think anyone who reads Prabhupada's (original) books will see he never says in there this is the only lineage, but that there are other sampradayas as well as other pure devotee individuals on this planet. Most just dont know how to recognize them. Regarding Catholics and overall Christianity, Prabhupada explains that anyone who truthfully follows that will be liberated. He says this for any bona fide religion too, including Muslim.

YL

[YogaLady]

Here are a few things Prabhupada said on the topics we just mentioned:

Prabhupada: "Yes, this Krsna consciousness movement is not a sentimental religious system. It is science and philosophy. The attempt is to awaken God consciousness. God is neither Christian nor Hindu nor Muslim. God is God. There may be angles of vision to approach God, but God is one." Srila Prabhupada speaks to La Trobe University, Melbourne , July 1, 74

"If one advocates the Hindu religion, the Muslim religion, the Christian religion, this religion or that religion, there will be conflicts. History shows that followers of religious systems without a clear conception of God have fought with one another." Srila Prabhupada, Srimad Bhagavatam 6. 16. 41

"One should know his identification. At the present moment, identification is going on by the skin. "I am Indian," "I am American." This is going on. But that is not our proper identification. The proper identification is aham brahmasmi: "I am spirit soul." This is to be understood in human form of life." Srila Prabhupada lecture, Srimad Bhagavatam 1.2.6, May 24, 74, Rome Italy


If this doesn't clear things up, let me know. Thanks for your tolerance (cuz I realize, and accept, that many disagree with me) and patience. To each their own.

YL

[BlackBillBlake]

Yoga Lady - thanks for your kind words, and I am glad to know you are aware of the extent to which some have distorted Prabhupada's mission. As I said in my pevious post, I think His books are a very great contribution, and whatever path one eventually follows, all can derive benefit from the repitition of Krishna's Name. It would be a shame though if one's exploration of Indian Philosophy and Religion, Yoga etc, were to stop with the works of only one man, representing only one aspect, one vision of the truth.

[YogaLady]

Yoga Lady - thanks for your kind words, and I am glad to know you are aware of the extent to which some have distorted Prabhupada's mission. As I said in my pevious post, I think His books are a very great contribution, and whatever path one eventually follows, all can derive benefit from the repitition of Krishna's Name. It would be a shame though if one's exploration of Indian Philosophy and Religion, Yoga etc, were to stop with the works of only one man, representing only one aspect, one vision of the truth.

BalckBillBlake,

This has been fun. Much of what you say, it appears we agree. Surprise, surprise! :) It happens, even with us Hare Krishna's. LOL Though total would be too good now wouldn't it? Just joking.

I think there is one confusion many make, tho I understand it. Its this (and you are not the only one who says like this, just wanted to make it clear I'm not picking on you ha.)

It would be a shame though if one's exploration of Indian Philosophy and Religion, Yoga etc, were to stop with the works of only one man, ...

It is a hard thing for many to accept, but here goes. ....

........... When a pure devotee walks the earth, let it be Jesus, Mohammad, or anyone else, they are not a "man." Tho it is so rare to have a genuine pure devotee amongst us, and many have cheated us claiming to be that, therefore we often find it hard to believe we've come across a real one. One actually sent to 'us,' or that it even happened in this modern day and age. Well, an example could be when Jesus was here cuz we see what happened to 'that' pure devotee. He was crucified for preaching. This is how some disbelieved him, (with others in grey areas). Yet enough believed to push on his Movement. It has been contaminated over time, but thats another subject. I agree there are many wonderful Vedic works of India presented by many 'men,' but we we're so blessed to have a pure soul come to us that was directly sent by God. This does not mean tho, that others who wrote wonderful Vedic (or any) literatures were not sent by God, only that we get this special opprotunity. Then we say, "Hey, I want more God. This one pure representative or Yours aint enough. I might have missed some angle or something." LOL Hey wait, am not saying you said this either. Just making a point its not always easy to recognize what has been sent our way, and so this is why Hare Krishna devotees don't wander out and about. Not cuz they are dogmatic or limiting their learning, but cuz they've all ready got a pure devotee directly sent and aint about to complain to God. ha Anyway, a pure devotee is never considered to be a body, so none of them would really be called men, or women for that matter. Must run. Wishing you well.

YL

[BlackBillBlake]

Yoga Lady - I fully appreciate your point of view - with the proviso that it can't be the thing for everybody!

[YogaLady]

Yoga Lady - I fully appreciate your point of view - with the proviso that it can't be the thing for everybody!

Well BlackBillBlake, we've probably come as far as we're going to. lol And in a sense, I can agree with you. But being me <s> I'd have to say they are missing out. Yeah, being you, you'd probalby disagree. Hey, lets agree to disagree. :)

YL

[YogaLady]

Mukunda: In one of his books, Prabhupada said that your sincere service was better than some people who had delved more deeply into Krishna consciousness but could not maintain that level of commitment. How did you feel about this?

George Harrison: Very wonderful, really. I mean it really gave me hope, because as they say, even one moment in the company of a divine person, Krishna's pure devotee, can help a tremendous amount.

And I think Prabhupada was really pleased at the idea that somebody from outside of the temple was helping to get the album made. Just the fact that he was pleased was encouraging to me. I knew he liked "The Hare Krishna Mantra" record, and he asked the devotees to play that song "Govinda." They still play it, don't they?

Mukunda: Every temple has a recording of it, and we play it each morning when the devotees assemble before the altar, before kirtana. It's an ISKCON institution, you might say.

George Harrison: And if I didn't get feedback from Prabhupada on my songs about Krishna or the philosophy, I'd get it from the devotees. That's all the encouragement I needed really. It just seemed that anything spiritual I did, either through songs, or helping with publishing the books, or whatever, really pleased him. The song I wrote, "Living in the Material World," as I wrote in I, Me, Mine, was influenced by Shrila Prabhupada. He's the one who explained to me how we're not these physical bodies. We just happen to be in them.

Like I said in the song, this place's not really what's happening. We don't belong here, but in the spiritual sky:

As l'm fated for the material world
Get frustrated in the material world
Senses never gratified
Only swelling like a tide
That could drown me in the material world
The whole point to being here, really, is to figure a way to get out.

That was the thing about Prabhupada, you see. He didn't just talk about loving Krishna and getting out of this place, but he was the perfect example. He talked about always chanting, and he was always chanting. I think that that in itself was perhaps the most encouraging thing for me. It was enough to make me try harder, to be just a little bit better. He was a perfect example of everything he preached. ~ From Interveiw "Chant and Be Happy."


Don't beat me up, LOL, I just couldn't avoid my inward temptations to post this.

YL

[sleeping jiva]

BLackBill Blake: Yes, you improve yourself by learning. But there's always a question of the driving force for your learning. Because you might also want to improve yourself, to be adored for your intelligence & knowledge by others. Your senses are the most powerful in you and if you have no control over your senses, they will swallow your inteligence too. How can you know? Me, personally I was and I am against dogma in any form and that led me to Hare Krishna philosophy. You need to be aware that dogma -it is not here as a type of path. It's always made by people, who want to gain either money or fame( what is basicly sense gratification). If your "dogma" is not to be controlled by material greed, it can't be a dogma, because it is a serious war against the things from which dogma originates.

Yoga Lady said it very clearly, nicely and well, she stole it from my head :). The thing is you don't believe that Prabhupada could be a pure devotee and that's why you can't accept this philosophy as a gift from God -Krishna. It's not vice versa. That's the whole problem. You say to yourself -No that's not possible, he cannot be perfect. there must be something wrong with it. But that's attachment to material body. Little kid is happier, because he/she will accept everything without exploring it deeper. As Yoga Lady said this is a result of experience with cheaters, exploitation, well everything what took your naivite & innocence. But with that we lost something. We lost peace in mind. We are always worried, in paranoya. Why is that? We think that this material body -that's us, but that's not true. We shouldn't worry about our material body, but concentrate on spiritual side of our lives. You can see that, when your mind is in peace, everything around you seems peaceful too.
If you attain this liberation that you're not identified with your body anymore, you have no problems with accepting anything, or even believing in everything, because you're not anything from that -those are all processes of your body. You find yourself in a position of an actor and you as though play yourself -that's how you function, when you have control over your senses.

Thank you all for your great contribution you've provided to the Hare Krishna discussion.I wish you nice day wherever you are. Harribol!

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

How incredably interesting that this seams to be the topic of the day...materialism and peace of mind in innocence. I say this because I wrote a very long journal entry all yesterday trying to explain how I have become my 12 year old self again...If you would like to read it, just PM me...I just find it very ironic that you are mentioning it. But I must say that finding myself in these past few months...I have to credit you all...the Hare Krishnas and your beautiful philosophy....now I am Christian (Roman Catholic actually...but I never followed things as they said) and I have been absorbing these different ways of thinking, I have been reading...a lot. I actually started to look up the word Hare Krisna because I had heard it in the song "My Sweet Lord" by George Harrison...and I have discovered a great many things. I can actually say that I have found my way again...my connection with God...I have found my soul again....because I started to think about it again...because something clicked...because I went out on a limb, tried something new, and chanted the Hare Krishna mantra with no guilt that it was blashphemous because God is God no matter what you call him...my Lord is still Him and Jesus is still Him and the Holy Spirit is Him in my own soul...and I have to credit some of this to you all...for helping my pave my way....

...If you would still like to read my entry, you are more than welcome...the end is pretty much what I just told you...the rest of it...it just talks about how I got lost in the first place....

...a friend of mine said the other day that only "unintelligent people believe in religion" and I have to say that that is soo not true...because the Hare Krisnas on this board are some of the most amazing people who have every bared their souls to those who where willing to listen....

*Peace and Love*
Nicole

[sleeping jiva]

That's amazing you chant Hare Krishna! Go on! :):)

[YogaLady]

SvgGrdnBeauty, what a lovely post you have written! I haven't much time now and will be back later, but wanted to tell you what a sweet person you are! :)

YL

[BlackBillBlake]

BLackBill Blake: Yes, you improve yourself by learning. But there's always a question of the driving force for your learning. Because you might also want to improve yourself, to be adored for your intelligence & knowledge by others. Your senses are the most powerful in you and if you have no control over your senses, they will swallow your inteligence too. How can you know? Me, personally I was and I am against dogma in any form and that led me to Hare Krishna philosophy. You need to be aware that dogma -it is not here as a type of path. It's always made by people, who want to gain either money or fame( what is basicly sense gratification). If your "dogma" is not to be controlled by material greed, it can't be a dogma, because it is a serious war against the things from which dogma originates.

Yoga Lady said it very clearly, nicely and well, she stole it from my head :). The thing is you don't believe that Prabhupada could be a pure devotee and that's why you can't accept this philosophy as a gift from God -Krishna. It's not vice versa. That's the whole problem. You say to yourself -No that's not possible, he cannot be perfect. there must be something wrong with it. But that's attachment to material body. Little kid is happier, because he/she will accept everything without exploring it deeper. As Yoga Lady said this is a result of experience with cheaters, exploitation, well everything what took your naivite & innocence. But with that we lost something. We lost peace in mind. We are always worried, in paranoya. Why is that? We think that this material body -that's us, but that's not true. We shouldn't worry about our material body, but concentrate on spiritual side of our lives. You can see that, when your mind is in peace, everything around you seems peaceful too.
If you attain this liberation that you're not identified with your body anymore, you have no problems with accepting anything, or even believing in everything, because you're not anything from that -those are all processes of your body. You find yourself in a position of an actor and you as though play yourself -that's how you function, when you have control over your senses.

Thank you all for your great contribution you've provided to the Hare Krishna discussion.I wish you nice day wherever you are. Harribol!
I don't doubt that Prabhupada was an advanced devotee - even though he clearly made errors, such as not making clear what arrangements were to be put in place for initiation etc, after his departure. He was not infallible - no one is.
As for the driving force behind my 'learning' paltry as that may be, I certainly do not want to be adored. Neither do I wholly reject HK philosophy, I just think it is limited.
How can I know, you ask. But how can anyone know? Obviously through the inner faculty of knowing inherent in all human beings.
Also, I'm sorry, but I can't see how anyone can seriously claim that HK is not dogmatic.
And as for control of the senses, many other yogic and religious paths preach this, and have methods of attainment.
One of my chief criticisms of the many devotees I have met over the years is that they tend to belittle other paths, so sure are they that their's is superior. But when pressed, it often turns out that they know little of other paths, perhaps because they read Prabhupada's books to the exclusion of anything else. I have also heard it repeated often enough that HK is 'the only way in this age' - if that's not being dogmatic I'd like to know what is!
I find this game a bit of a bore - 'my paths better than yours '- 'X,Y or Z was the only true representative of God '.etc. There are many different types of Human being, and what suits one may be poison to another.
And also given that the bogus successor 'gurus' have all turned out to be no good,it is hard to see that orthodox HK as taught by Prabhupada is even a path that is accesible in the west, as Prabhupada clearly states that initiation must be taken from a 'bona-fide acharaya', and no such being is available.

[YogaLady]

I don't doubt that Prabhupada was an advanced devotee - even though he clearly made errors, such as not making clear what arrangements were to be put in place for initiation etc, after his departure. He was not infallible - no one is.

Hey there BlackBillBlake.

Here we go. Ready?

Ok, now, Prabhupada DID make very clear what the arrangements were to be for initiaitons after his departure. The "authorities" did things like hid them, destroyed some, twisted the meaning of others, tried to use scripture as more important than his personal instructions, and more. Its even out of character for him not to be clear on any type of arrangements he made for anything, so this confusion is not his doing, but theirs.

As for him making errors, who are we to judge? Do we really think we can identify an error or a pure devotee? Would people be so quick to say that if it were Jesus? "Oh Jesus, you made an error?" ha I doubt it. But yet many have trouble accepting Prabhupada was a pure devotee on that level too. Most cannot list qualifications of a pure devotee, yet with our imperfect senses, we judge. Take for example our eyes. Yes, they are wonderful, but limited. We require the aid of a microscope to see even the small material microbe, so how do we think with our eyes we will see God or recognize His representative? But Prabhupada could see God and did this regularly, so we dont know what is a mistaken and what is not. Thats why we study. God gave us brains to study. ha Thank goodness for that!

I don't want to get into all the personal things going on between you and Sleeping Jiva, so I will snip here.

I just think it is limited. (You were referring to "HK philosophy"

Well, I wont get too into that one, but will touch on it briefly by saying if you are truly reading Prabhuapda's books, and deeply, and all of them, you would not be feeling this way.

. But how can anyone know?

Good point. Only the pure deovtee can know. Therefore first one must learn how to recognize a pure devotee. But many dont want to do that cuz it means once they find him, they should surrender to him. Lets face it, who's so good at surrendering? I know I'm not. I try, but I'm not.

Also, I'm sorry, but I can't see how anyone can seriously claim that HK is not dogmatic.

In addition to my personal understanding and explanation of that - already made previously - I would add that there is this "religion" out there where many New Agers or others hold a strong "belief" that everyone must be noncommital to anything, otherwise that person is leaving something out, closed, and therefore part of a dogma. But isn't that also a dogman? If we do not belive as they believe, if we dont accept a little from every path but instead commit to our spiriutal path, according to their judgment, we are following a dogma. ha Kind of a double edged sword there. :)


One of my chief criticisms of the many devotees I have met over the years is that they tend to belittle

You may be surprised to read I am not so much in disagreement with you, or in part anyway. Many devotees, tho especially the newbies, get real fanatical. It even ticks me off! LOL I can get very into this cuz it irks me like crazy, but the bottom line is, too many others therefore, judge our teachings by the devotees. Please judge our religion by reading Prabhupada's books for yourself and on that alone.

other paths, so sure are they that their's is superior.

I don't doubt many show a lack of humility. But putting that aside, once one has attained the Absolute Truth, they have attained the Absolute Truth (in knowlege not necessarily in experience -- yet!). God is God, so once a preson has found that connection, be they HK's or Christians or Jewish, etc., they have achieved the highest. This I think is your concern tho, that these devotees you have personally met do not give credit to other paths. But here is where it boils down to a matter of "degree." Another topic which we can talk about, but right now am getting tired :) so the short answer is, there is only one God, He is unlimited, may go by many names be it Buddha, Allah (actualy just means "God"), Rama, Jesus, Vishnu, Krishna, Yahway (spelling), etc. Our REAL teachings from Prabhupada's books you will see, do not argue with any of these and similar bona fide religions. Of course we say Krishna is highest but that is where the new deovtees don't know how to show respect for all other paths. Yet, everyone thinks their path is "superior." Do you not think yours isn't? Ha Of course you think it is. So to prove Krishna consciousness is superior is not my goal. I will explain to those interested, but I wont harass those uninterested and will respect their religion. Be nice to get that mutually for a change tho. (Wait - that was not a reflection on you.)

But when pressed, it often turns out that they know little of other paths,

This tells me they are new devotees who know not what they talk of, tho have good intent. ha Still, they shoud study before they speak.


perhaps because they read Prabhupada's books to the exclusion of anything else.

So the bottom line for you is to always return to how unforunate we are to read only the works of a pure devotee since you dont accept him as a pure devotee, therefore we are missing out? Actually, if you would read his books thoroughly, you will see most of what is in every other religion, is included in ours. This is explained in the Introduction of Prabhupadas Bhagavad-gita As It is. The very introduction. I suggest that be read before assuming we are so ignorant of anything else.


I have also heard it repeated often enough that HK is 'the only way in this age' - if that's not being dogmatic I'd like to know what is!

The quote is that in this age of kali, the only way back to God, and of course for us, to Krishna, is to chant His Holy names, chant His holy names, (I'm not saying this in a fantical ways, the Sanskrit says it three times), Chant His holy names. In this age of quarrel and hypocrisy there is no other way. -- Now, we dont care if someone chants "Jesus" "Buddha" or "Narayana" but to please chant or pray. Also, this is Sanskrit, we are not making up any dogmatic thing. It's from ancient Sanskrit text. How is ancient Sanskirt dogmatic? So you see, in the Vedas there are four ages, and each age is given a "prescribed" way for salvation. In previous yugas (ages) one was insturcted by these ancient scriptures to meditate (all the time, not 30 minutes) to achieve God consciousness. In another previous age one was instructed via ancient Sanskrit to preform yajna (sacrifice type cermonies). Anyway in this modern day and age, the prescribe method is to merely chant. It is the easiest so why are we complaining?! LOL

I find this game a bit of a bore - 'my paths better than yours '- 'X,Y or Z was the only true representative of God '.etc.

Ok, but isn't that what you're doing? <G>


And also given that the bogus successor 'gurus' have all turned out to be no good,it is hard to see that orthodox HK as taught by Prabhupada is even a path that is accesible in the west, as Prabhupada clearly states that initiation must be taken from a 'bona-fide acharaya', and no such being is available.

Yes, I agree this has happened. But please not to think we can't access Prabhuada anymore, that he is "dead." Prabupada said he lives forever in his books. If anyone wants to make contact with him, they merely need to read his books, and be sincere too. To follow the instructions he gave and thats all. But I must wonder at some point, is not this focus of what these new gurus etc have done to the movement not a way to minimize the movement and make it no longer worth doing? Why bother dedicating ourselves to it cuz it must be hopeless due to all thats going on? Some food for thought.

There appears to be many misunderstandings devotees may have told you (am 'not' referring to IRM) of our teachings. This is why I stress to read Prabhuapda's books for yourslef, and that they are very complex, not so simplistic as some of the misunderstandings I guess devotees have told you are our teachings, which have been presented here. Even devotees who live in temples have to read his books for years and years before they get the some 'real' understanding of how detailed this knowledge is, because its a lack of this study that causes them to say some fanatical things. I have heard a Sanskrit scholar commented that Prabhuapda's Bhagavad-Gita is more advanced understandings then his own knowledge of Sanskrit, and this gentleman was very expert! So IMHO, us Westerners need to read more thoroughly before criticizing.

I realize you wrote much of this to sleeping jiva and you two are ummm at battle? ha So your words and mine too, may have not been the best selected ones. I do apologize for that, and hope that you and sleeping jiva will continue your conversation but in a gentle manner.

YL

[YogaLady]

I'm not trying to rub anything in or be a know-it-all, God knows I am far from knowing much of anything. lol Just thought that maybe showing what our REAL teachings are may be helpful. Here's a bit of a conversation between Srila Prabhupada and Father Emmanuel.


Srila Prabhupada: What is the meaning of the word, “Christ?”

Father Emmanuel: Christ comes from the Greek word Christos, meaning "the anointed one."

Srila Prabhupada: Christos is the Greek version of the word Krishna.

Father Emmanuel: This is very interesting.

Srila Prabhupada: When an Indian person calls on Krishna, he often says, "Krsta". Krsta is a Sanskrit word meaning "attraction". So when we address God as "Christ", "Krsta", or "Krishna" we indicate the same all-attractive Supreme Personality of Godhead. When Jesus said, " Our Father who art in heaven hallowed be Thy name," the name of God was Krsta or Krishna. Do you agree?

Father Emmanuel: I think Jesus, as the son of God, has revealed to us the actual name of God: Christ. We can call God "Father", but if we want to address Him by His actual name, we have to say "Christ".

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. "Christ" is another way of saying Krsta and Krsta is another way of pronouncing Krishna, the name of God. Jesus said that one should glorify the name of God, but yesterday I heard one theologian say that God has no name -- that we can call Him only "Father". A son may call his father "Father", but the father also has a specific name. Similarly, God is the general name of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, whose specific name is Krishna. Therefore whether you call God "Christ", "Krsta", or "Krishna", ultimately you are addressing the same Supreme Personality of Godhead.

Father Emmanuel: Yes, if we speak of God's actual name, then we must say, "Christos". In our religion we have the Trinity: the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. We believe we can know the name of God only by revelation from the son of God. Jesus Christ revealed the name of the Father, and therefore we take the name "Christ" as the revealed name of God.

Srila Prabhupada: Actually, it doesn't matter -- Krishna or Christ -- the name is the same. The main point is to follow the injunctions of the Vedic scriptures that recommend chanting the name of God in this age. The easiest way is to chant the maha-mantra: Hare Krishna H