hare krishna

[sleeping jiva]

hare krishna is the eldest religion in the world. It came in the form of Vedas 5000 years ago. The goal is to love Krishna, the Supreme Personality of Godhea.d I mean not just saying that, but actually feeling that is the point. In fact, hare krishna isn't religion at all, because it doesn apply any dogmas on people. The only point is to find out by yourself, that you are not this material body and this world is temporary and full of threefold miseries :death, illness, old age.
the best method how to obtain the state, where you can love Sri Krishna is to chant mahamantra. it goes like this:

[WeAreGod]

I find Hare Krishna-ness fastinating. I LOVE the chants. a lot. But i dunno it just sounds like there is more concentration on the miseries of living here. I, personally, decide to be joyous of life, its an honor to be here (even if its challenging as feck sometimes, but we came in being perfectly aware and willing of that).

There are worse things than suffering in my opinion. Like stagnation.

I wish i had some more Krishan chants though. Govinda Hare is my favorite.

[osiris]

hare.
krishna.

two words that have whatever meaning with which you choose to imbue them.

say nothing, and you will come to the same conclusions. don't give it a name, and it is still the same thing.

and if death, illness, and old age are so horrible, why not just kill yourself now, and give it all back to "krishna". you enjoy life more than you like to admit friend.

;)

much love

[VanAstral]

they gave me a free meal once... i was just walking down the street, saw an open door, looked in, and this family in robes and forehead dots asked me to have dinner. Says I: Cool! Thanks!
They asked me to come to their farm the next day as they were worshipping their first cow. i had to work, so I politely declined.
some people say they have no regrets. i think they're liers.
if i'm gonna worship something, it might as well be a cow... er,
maybe pig, I love bacon!
i wish i had gone to the cow worshipping. :(

[sleeping jiva]

To kill yourself is an offence to Lord Krishna, because it's like as though you were God yourself. We did lot of bad things -not because we wanted, just out of ignorance. If you think you're God, can you be beyond ignorance?

Suffering ends in this world if you develop sincere love to Sri Krishna. That is to be, who you really are -without egotism. Instead of loving yourself, love Sri Krishna, The supreme Personality of Godhead, who is everything and in everyone.
I know that this can be a great hook on desperate people to say that this is suffering and the only way is to be one of our religion. But as I said hare krishna is not a religion as we know it. The goal is to serve and think of Krishna, nothing more. We are all his parcels, therefore the divine or shall we say godish is contained in us, but as beams from the sun are not the sun itself, we are not God.

haribol!

[osiris]

suffering is ignored. this does not mean that it ends.

a marked difference.

much love :)

[WeAreGod]

whoa. I'm not a liar and i have not a single regret. I don't believe in regrets, what a strange use of energy, living in the past instead of living in the now. Every single thing, big or small, trivial or no, embarassing or painful or otherwise, its all made me the person i am right this second. And i am glad of that. I learn from everything i do, though.

And to who said something about... Okay well i forget, but i also know that we are all part of the same thing. We are all part of, we all ARE all-that-is. We are all God. We are not the supreme god above everyone else, cuz we are ALL god.

*nod* *love*

[gdkumar]

Hare Krishna !

Dear all,

Krishna is the icon of unconditional love of highest degree. When love obtains that intensity it is known as 'prem'. This prem does not discriminate, it does not see good or bad, it does not see religion, race or creed, it can not be bound by boundaries or limits. It envelops everything like what a deluge does.

Krishna tells us about that love and how to develop it. He never talked about any religion. He never criticizes us rather He gives us hopes and tells us that no matter how we are today we can definitely try and improve ourselves to get dissolved into the ocean of His divinity. He also tells us how we can do it.

With love............kumar.

[osiris]

so again even krishna seems to refute the necessity of his "krishna"-ness. he doesn;t seem to care what you call him, or seem to be a "he" at all, but just a feeling, and emanation, a spirit, flowing through. the questions, answers, representations are all written and discussed by and in the minds of humans.

much love :)

[eccofarmer]

NAMASTE AND HARI BOL


The fisrt is SANATANA DHARMA as being the fisrt and oldist.From this yes VASNAVAS SHIVITES And so for arise so i understand.
Though to me it is not who is the oldist but how it leads us to the divine.

[ChiefCowpie]

we are all Krishna...we are all God

[sleeping jiva]

Yes, we are of a godly nature. As a humans we possess higher inteligence, but for the most -we have opportunity to love Krishna. That is very rare in the cycle of reincarnations. If we were Gods, how come we fail all the time? We do mistakes, posses imperfect senses, we are lured to cheat and we fall into illusion. PLease let me quote Bhagavadgita, where Krishna explains this:

TRANSLATION

O scion of Bharata, you should understand that I am also the knower in all bodies, and to understand this body and its owner is called knowledge. That is My opinion.

PURPORT

While discussing the subject of this body and the owner of the body, the soul and the Supersoul, we shall find three different topics of study: the Lord, the 1iving entity, and matter. In every field of activities, in every body, there are two souls: the individual soul and the Supersoul. Because the Supersoul is the plenary expansion of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kåñëa, Kåñëa says, “I am also the knower, but I am not the individual owner of the body. I am the superknower. I am present in every body as the Paramätmä, or Supersoul.”

One who studies the subject matter of the field of activity and the knower of the field very minutely, in terms of this Bhagavad-gétä, can attain to knowledge.

The Lord says: “I am the knower of the field of activities in every individual body.” The individual may be the knower of his own body, but he is not in knowledge of other bodies. The Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is present as the Supersoul in all bodies, knows everything about all bodies. He knows all the different bodies of all the various species of life. A citizen may know everything about his patch of land, but the king knows not only his palace but all the properties possessed by the individual citizens. Similarly, one may be the proprietor of the body individually, but the Supreme Lord is the proprietor of all bodies. The king is the original proprietor of the kingdom, and the citizen is the secondary proprietor. Similarly, the Supreme Lord is the supreme proprietor of all bodies.

The body consists of the senses. The Supreme Lord is Håñékeça, which means controller of the senses. He is the original controller of the senses, just as the king is the original controller of all the activities of the state, and the citizens are secondary controllers. The Lord also says: “I am also the knower.” This means that He is the superknower; the individual soul knows only his particular body. In the Vedic literature, it is stated as follows:

kñeträëi hi çaréräëi béjaà cäpi çubhäçubhe
täni vetti sa yogätmä tataù kñetrajïa ucyate.

This body is called the kñetra, and within it dwells the owner of the body and the Supreme Lord who knows both the body and the owner of the body. Therefore He is called the knower of all fields. The distinction between the field of activities, the owner of activities and the supreme owner of activities is described as follows. Perfect knowledge of the constitution of the body, the constitution of the individual soul, and the constitution of the Supersoul is known in terms of Vedic literature as jïänam. That is the opinion of Kåñëa. To understand both the soul and the Supersoul as one yet distinct is knowledge. One who does not understand the field of activity and the knower of activity is not in perfect knowledge. One has to understand the position of prakåti, nature, and puruña, the enjoyer of the nature, and éçvara, the knower who dominates or controls nature and the individual soul. One should not confuse the three in their different capacities. One should not confuse the painter, the painting and the easel. This material world, which is the field of activities, is nature, and the enjoyer of nature is the living entity, and above them both is the supreme controller, the Personality of Godhead. It is stated in the Vedic language: “bhoktä bhogyaà preritäraà ca matvä sarvaà proktaà tri-vidhaà brahmam etat.” There are three Brahman conceptions: prakåti isBrahman as the field of activities, and the jéva (individual soul) is also Brahman and is trying to control material nature, and the controller of both of them is also Brahman, but He is the factual controller.

In this chapter it will be also explained that out of the two knowers, one is fallible and the other is infallible. One is superior and the other is subordinate. One who understands the two knowers of the field to be one and the same contradicts the Supreme Personality of Godhead who states here very clearly that “I am also the knower of the field of activity.” One who misunderstands a rope to be a serpent is not in knowledge. There are different kinds of bodies, and there are different owners of the bodies. Because each individual soul has his individual capacity of lording it over material nature, there are different bodies. But the Supreme also is present in them as the controller. The word ca issignificant, for it indicates the total number of bodies. That is the opinion of Çréla Baladeva Vidyäbhüñaëa: Kåñëa is the Supersoul present in each and every body apart from the individual soul. And Kåñëa explicitly says here that the Supersoul is the controller of both the field of activities and the finite enjoyer.

haribol!!

[gdkumar]

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we are all Krishna...we are all God
Dear Chiefcowpie,

It is so truly said, thanks. But you can say this only when you see Krishna in yourself and yourself in Krishna and all other beings. You can say this only when anybody's sorrows and happiness becomes your sorrows and happiness.

That is total assimilation into Krishna, that is dissolving into Krishna's divinity. Can we really do it, feel it that way ? It is extremely difficult but not impossible.
He himself tells us how we can do it and achieve oneness with Krishna.

With lots of love..........Kumar.

[gdkumar]

Dear Sleepingjiva(Pedromicho,right?),

Thank you for your beautiful and enlightening post.

I would only like to add that it is also very clearly mentioned by Him(Krishna) in the Gita that everyone's head is His head, legs and hands are His legs and hands, eyes are His eyes and so on.

It is also said that nothing can have its existence without Him being into it.

We are all Krishna alright but it is meaningless to say this without that realization and consciousness.

With lots of love...........Kumar.

[ChiefCowpie]

"you are that"

[osiris]

"But you can say this only when you see Krishna in yourself and yourself in Krishna and all other beings."

that's funny, all the other religions say the same thing about their gods.

hm.

much love :)

[sleeping jiva]

gdkumar: thanx, yes it's me pedromicho :) -sleeping soul, who is soaked in ignorance.Thank you for your great posts. You put it quite right. Please, find God in yourself, He's hidden under layers of material attachments.
osiris: indeed, we are all the same, looking for the same thing. Materialism is another religion. Even materialists are seeking Krishna, but they falsely think it's in material wealth.

[osiris]

are you saying that krishna is the real source and all the others are slight or gross misrepresentations?

much love :)

[sleeping jiva]

It is said in Bhagavadgita: everybody will return to Him. Some sooner, some later. Look at the people around -everybody's seeking happiness -that's what I'm saying. everybody's got this ideal -no one wants to suffer. Some say they like it, but it's only excuse, because they don't know what is their natural position. Passion brings suffering. If you're attached to this world you're gonna suffer, because material nature doesn't care about you -that's matter. Krishna cares. You think that material nature is Krishna, so you serve it, but the result is suffering, because mateiral nature is not Krishna. But if you surrender to Krishna you're in fact free from misery, because everything what is not related to Krishna is material nature. To surrender to Krishna isn't to go by some rules, it is more about your pure love to Him. that's the only way how to get rid of your egotism. You can't do it artificially -you need to substitute. By chanting His Holy Names you're with Him -just like that (I'm snapping with my fingers:) try it, then you have a right to say something about it. Forget the intelectual speculations for a while just sincerely chant these few words and be happy:

Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare
Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare

[gdkumar]

"But you can say this only when you see Krishna in yourself and yourself in Krishna and all other beings."

that's funny, all the other religions say the same thing about their gods.

hm.

much love http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif"........Osiris.
Dear Osiris,

Yes Osiris, it is not funny but is the beauty of all religions when read and understood properly.

This is why a true lover of God respects all religions equally because he knows that it is the same God in other names for other religions. He loves and respects all different names and forms(Deities) knowing very well that it is the same God that he loves and worships.

This is why nobody should leave or change his religion because it becomes an act of a man having good eyes but behaving like a blind man. It is an act of hurting your beloved God. He is in all religions but closest He is in your heart.
There are thousands of advices in all religions, take the ones that suit you and you feel comfortable with.For that nobody needs to change his religion. Please remember, like "all roads lead to Rome", all these advice-paths lead to Him only.

If you love Krishna you do not dislike or hate others, your true love for Krishna will make you see Krishna everywhere in every deity and being,living or dead.
It should happen the same way if you are a lover of Jesus, Buddha or any other name.

Chanting, as Sleeping jiva suggests, is a wonderful and sure way of developing the love-relationship between your God and yourself and in the process it automatically develops the same relationship with the whole world or universe or whatever you call it (Because your God is everywhere and in everything).

With lots of love...........Kumar.

[osiris]

i will end my part in this discussion by saying that you folks will one day realize all too well the debt of gratitude you owe to those that are willing to suffer so that you may make such brash generalizations.

much love :)

[gdkumar]

Let nobody on this earth suffer because of me or any body else.

Sorry for causing such a grave concern. Let there be light and happiness.

With love.......... Kumar.

[sleeping jiva]

Firstly, I'm really sorry that you're ending this discussion. Please, don't. My goal is not to argue, but share wisdom. It is said that everybody is a guru. Everybody can put you on a right path. Even children for example.

Me and gdkumar don't express our personal opinions. We are sharing, what we've learnt from the scriptures as Bhagavadgita. I don't want to put words in gdkumar's mouth, but I clearly recognize that all he's saying is in accordance with Bhagavagita. Of course, when you just parrot things and you don't really know what they mean -that's useless, but I'm saying only what I believe in and experienced myself. In the the tmes, when Sri Krishna Himself gave a lecture to Arjuna on the battlefield of Kuruksetra and it became later this book Bhagavadgita, there was no such an amount of suffering as it is today. You think that the words from Bhagavadgita bring suffering, but it is vice versa. People, who misused the message of it, made this world a living hell.

This world is full of suffering. You can't deny that. namely there are four miseries: birth, death, old age and diseases. Whatever material advancement you attain, you're hopless against those. But al the more, people add up suffering by their egotism -that's the reason of wars, violence and arguements as well. We think that we are gods, even though we don't posses any of godish qualities. there's no other way how to stop your egotism as to serve Lord Krishna. Instead of loving yourself, love Krishna. You need to substitute. Every sign of your charity, which is not done in Krishna consciousness is a waste. You're helping people in their own egotisms. You're helping them in their body attachements. Even though it seems like a good deed, from the larger perspective your efforts are pointless. The only help you can give to people is to make them Krishna conscious -make them love God.
haribol!

[ChiefCowpie]

not everyone want to merge into Krishna...some want to merge into Kali Ma

mamamamamamamamamamamamamamamama!!!!!!!!!!!!

[sleeping jiva]

yes, there are people in ignorance. The age of quarrel, the age of Kali, doesnt disturb devotees of Krishna.

[gdkumar]

Dear Osiris,

Please join back with an open and candid mind.
I am terribly dismayed by your post. 'Brash' is a very harsh word to use.
Where did I go wrong? It was just a discussion and there was no attempt
to impose any idea into anybody. If you thought otherwise it is O.K.
Let us not say or do anything today for which we will be ashamed and embarrased tomorrow.

Sorry again.

With love.............Kumar.

[gdkumar]

"not everyone want to merge into Krishna...some want to merge into Kali Ma

mamamamamamamamamamamamamamamama!!!!!!!!!!!!"........Chiefcowpie.

Dear Chiefcowpie,

Looks like things are improving.

If you want to merge into Ma Kali, you are not far away, please keep chanting

ma..ma..ma..ma..ma..ma..ma..ma..ma..ma..ma..ma.... .................

With love...........kumar.

[ChiefCowpie]

yes, there are people in ignorance. The age of quarrel, the age of Kali, doesnt disturb devotees of Krishna.
sorry but Kali Ma is not referenced in the name Kali Yuga...Kali Yuga refers to iron which is the most base metal...gold, silver, bronze...jiv jago sleeping soul

[sleeping jiva]

i'm sorry, please excuse my ignorance but anyway kali yuga is the age of quarrel.

[ChiefCowpie]

i'm not gonna excuse your ignorance...that's up to you...awaken and dispell the illusions you have propped your reality upon

[gdkumar]

Truly Kali yug is the age of silly quarrels.

With love..........Kumar.

[ChiefCowpie]

yah but sleeping jiva and i didn't have a silly argument...he said his God was better than my God

Om Narayani Om

[sleeping jiva]

lol, that's funny. gdkumar & me are trying to explain this for a long time. As soon as you love God, there's no difference. Please try to love Him sincerely & you are ok. Thanx for your advice, I'll try to overcome my illusions, which I've based my life on. In fact that is the only reason for suffering to be in illusion-maya.

[ChiefCowpie]

Please try to love Him sincerely & you are ok.
or love Her sincerely & you are ok.

Jaya Kali Ma!!!

[sleeping jiva]

as you please. :)

[gdkumar]

My son calls me 'baba' and my nephew calls me 'kaka'. I am the same man.
Dollar coin sides are Elizabath-II and Dollar-1,1996.The coin is same.

It is the old problem of 6 and 9. Problem of looking at it. When one sees it as 6 the other one at the opposite side sees it as 9. When both of them are at the same side then there is no problem, both see the same...either 6 or 9.
6 or 9 it is the same writing.
It is one God, names are Kali or Krishna, Christ or Buddha and so on.

Jai Ma Kali, Jai Sri Krishna, Jai Prabhu Jesus, Jai Prabhu Buddha............. Jai Bhagwan.

With love...................Kumar.

[Spiritforces]

I like that post :)

It's all good
Hare. Krishna.

[gdkumar]

Dear Spiritforces,

Thanks for your kind post.

With love.......Kumar.

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

I must thank you all for this post...

...I am always very interested to learn about different points of view in religion. Krishna and the ideas that thoughs who follow him have always interested me the most...I especially like it because of what was mentioned before...its all the same God no matter what you call Him and that we all have a little of Him within us...and its all just a matter of interpretation and realization. I have grown away from the idea of organized religion (how terribly ironic since my family is Roman Catholic and I was baptized into that church)...because I think that religion is what you believe and it is about your personal connection with God...no one can tell you how to love Him...just as long as you do...
... I seemed to have strayed a little off topic...but what I meant to say is thank you for the insight on Krishna...it is nice to know that some people share in my philosophy...

[gdkumar]

"I have grown away from the idea of organized religion (how terribly ironic since my family is Roman Catholic and I was baptized into that church)...because I think that religion is what you believe and it is about your personal connection with God...no one can tell you how to love Him...just as long as you do..."

Dear SvgGrdnBeauty,

You are a beautiful mind and soul. Thanks for your kind post.

We often forget that human beings are not for religions but religions are for human beings. Religion is not life. How we live our lives is religion.

I understand your feelings but please be patient and tolerant about your and all other religions. After all, all religions talk about one God only. Let us take that substance matter only and try to love Him the way we like it. After all a lover at all times tries to love and endeavours to ensure that he/she is also loved by the beloved.

And there is another lover who just wants to love without caring for what is received back. Because this lover just cannot help but love.The reasons if you ask, you hear, " I just love to love Him".

When breeze comes it carries not only fragrance,it carries some stink from somewhere as well. Same way all religions give you some happiness and some uncomfortable issues. I suppose that is the divine game. Please try to recognize the good points and accept them.

At last I would like to suggest that do not have any doubt about dear Lord Jesus. Please always remember that He comes first and Christianity comes after. The same is true for all others. Please take the substance, the yolk and the egg white.....not the shell.

Please go ahead and never stop, endless mines are ahead...copper..silver..
gold..platinum..diamond......................

With lots of love and prayers................Kumar.

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

I indeed understand what you are saying and your words are, as usual, beautiful. I never said that I do not love Jesus...no...I just chose to love Him the way that I see fit...sometimes the teachings of the Catholic church, not as a religious body...but as a governmental body, are hypocritical and that is the part of my religion that I do not like...also the fact that since there are many that are fully committed to the ways of the Catholic church: to the politics of it that I do not believe in...I am heaped with the stereotype...that is the part of organized religion that I do not like...the politics and the stereotype...I'm just trying to find my own path to enlightment...its personal and it should never have to do with politics...that, my friend, is what is unfortunate about my religion...

...I found a quote from John Lennon the other day...and it kinda reciprocates what I've been saying...and I like it:

"I believe in God, but not as one thing, not as an old man in the sky. I believe that what people call God is something in all of us. I believe that what Jesus and Mohammed and Buddha and all the rest said was right. It's just that the translations have gone wrong."- John Lennon

[Chodpa]

WOWOW!!! Lots of misconceptions here.

First, Vaishnavism is not 5,000 years old nor the first religion in the world. Wow, where did you get that idea. The Dravidian or pre-Hindu religions did include Shiva and Shakti worship but Vishnu was not a name then, nor is Vishnu mentioned in the Vedas anywhere.

Vishnu is mentioned only in Itihasa which includes the Mahabharata and various puranas.

Vaishnavism and Hare Krishnas in general are not Advaita Vedanta, or in other words, do not believe in merging into Krishna but rather believe in remaining forever dual and in thrall of Krishna, the personal form of Vishnu.

It has been theorized that Krishna worship developed from Kali/Shaktism worship, and in some parts of India Kali and Krishna are seen to be one. In fact the of each Shyam and Shyama show the very close similarity of them at least in name. Both names mean essentially "of the night." Which refers to their dark color.

Hari Krishna means "love of the dark one." The dark one is the one obscured by thought and which is the self as in, "And now you see as through a glass darkly, but one day you will see face to face," to quote the Bible. Forgive the introduction of a Bible quotation into this melange of ideas. I did find it well descriptive though.

Just some thoughts.

[sleeping jiva]

chodpa: I'm sorry if I made some mistakes. I know another translation of Krishna: All-attracting.

[sleeping jiva]

It is said in Bhagavadgita that Sri Krishna came to this world approximately 5000 years ago and gave as this wonderful book, so we can learn how to get from this world of suffering.

As soon as Sri Krishna is the Supreme God, He is our dad actually :) and the devotional service, which we as the living entities render to Him is eternal. That's what I meant by the oldest religion in the world.

It is also very hard to attain liberation from the materialistic conception of life by trying to merge into Krishna. In this service to Krishna, we engage our senses to please Him. The primal state of a living being is that he loves himself the most. By loving Krishna we don't need to artificially cut off our senses, but engage them in a natural way. It is easier to love a person than trying to love something impersonal. That's why we prepare food to Krishna, bathe the dieties, offer Him flowers as though He was present all the time. We love His various forms. :)
Bhagavadgita clearly states that we will never loose our individuality. Everybody has a different karma, which is the result of activities from our past lives. Even though Krishna is present within us in the form of Supersoul, we are not Him. We are not God, because we are not ignorance-free. :) This is not dual relationship -it is a relationship in the absolute realm, but we cannot understand that by our materialistic (dual) senses. Absolute means everything is Krishna. Even our decisions. We have only one choice: to surrender love to Him, eveything else is controled by three material modes (ignorance, passion and goodness) Had we not have individuality, we would have have difficulties to develop love for Krishna -and love to Krishna that is the basic method for attaining liberation. It is a little game Krishna plays on us. We need to work on ourselves, we need to attain love.
This is from Bhagavadgita, which is the part of Mahabharata and so the part of the Vedas. This is what Krishna Himself says:

vedähaà samatétäni

vartamänäni cärjuna

bhaviñyäëi ca bhütäni

mäà tu veda na kaçcana

veda—know; aham—I; sama—equally; atétäni—past; vartamänäni—present; ca—and; arjuna—O Arjuna; bhaviñyäëi—future; ca—also; bhütäni—living entities; mäm—Me; tu—but; veda—knows; na—not; kaçcana—anyone.

TRANSLATION

O Arjuna, as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, I know everything that has happened in the past, all that is happening in the present, and all things that are yet to come. I also know all living entities; but Me no one knows.

PURPORT

Here the question of personality and impersonality is clearly stated. If Kåñëa, the form of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is considered by the impersonalists to be mäyä, to be material, then He would, like the living entity, change His body and forget everything in His past life. Anyone with a material body cannot remember his past life, nor can he foretell his future life, nor can he predict the outcome of his present life; therefore he cannot know what is happening in past, present and future. Unless one is liberated from material contamination, he cannot know past, present and future.

Unlike the ordinary human being, Lord Kåñëa clearly says that He completely knows what happened in the past, what is happening in the present, and what will happen in the future. In the Fourth Chapter we have seen that Lord Kåñëa remembers instructing Vivasvän, the sun-god, millions of years ago. Kåñëa knows every living entity because He is situated in every living being’s heart as the Supreme Soul. But despite His presence in every living entity as Supersoul and His presence beyond the material sky, as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the less intelligent cannot realize Him as the Supreme Person. Certainly the transcendental body of Çré Kåñëa is not perishable. He is just like the sun, and mayä is like the cloud. In the material world we can see that there is the sun and that there are clouds and different stars and planets. The clouds may cover all these in the sky temporarily, but this covering is only apparent to our limited vision. The sun, moon and stars are not actually covered. Similarly, mäyä cannot cover the Supreme Lord. By His internal potency He is not manifest to the less intelligent class of men. As it is stated in the third verse of this chapter, out of millions and millions of men, some try to become perfect in this human form of life, and out of thousands and thousands of such perfected men, hardly one can understand what Lord Kåñëa is. Even if one is perfected by realization of impersonal Brahman or localized Paramätmä, he cannot possibly understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Çré Kåñëa, without being in Kåñëa consciousness.

[sleeping jiva]

I indeed understand what you are saying and your words are, as usual, beautiful. I never said that I do not love Jesus...no...I just chose to love Him the way that I see fit...sometimes the teachings of the Catholic church, not as a religious body...but as a governmental body, are hypocritical and that is the part of my religion that I do not like...also the fact that since there are many that are fully committed to the ways of the Catholic church: to the politics of it that I do not believe in...I am heaped with the stereotype...that is the part of organized religion that I do not like...the politics and the stereotype...I'm just trying to find my own path to enlightment...its personal and it should never have to do with politics...that, my friend, is what is unfortunate about my religion...

...I found a quote from John Lennon the other day...and it kinda reciprocates what I've been saying...and I like it:

"I believe in God, but not as one thing, not as an old man in the sky. I believe that what people call God is something in all of us. I believe that what Jesus and Mohammed and Buddha and all the rest said was right. It's just that the translations have gone wrong."- John Lennon




I understand and Lord Krishna says that demons are always pretending that they're very religious. That's the most deceitful, because they make God look ugly. Hare Krishna isn't a religion. It is a service. Either you love God, or not. You cannot pretend that. And yes, even though we should learn from the books and teachers, the most important is to find Supersoul (Krishna, God) within. You need to feel it. By chanting mahamantra (see below :) you can experience the pleasure, which comes with it right away. Nothing else is needed. Just your voice and sincere wish to love Him.You don't even need to believe in Krishna :):) and yet it brings liberation from your karma and love from Krishna, the great blue-skinned guy.

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

I understand and Lord Krishna says that demons are always pretending that they're very religious. That's the most deceitful, because they make God look ugly. Hare Krishna isn't a religion. It is a service. Either you love God, or not. You cannot pretend that. And yes, even though we should learn from the books and teachers, the most important is to find Supersoul (Krishna, God) within. You need to feel it. By chanting mahamantra (see below you can experience the pleasure, which comes with it right away. Nothing else is needed. Just your voice and sincere wish to love Him.You don't even need to believe in Krishna and yet it brings liberation from your karma and love from Krishna, the great blue-skinned guy.
I very much understand what you are saying...I have chanted/sung mantras before as well as hymns...they indeed do make you feel as if the world has been lifted from your shoulders...I think, after all of this time, that to sing and to listen to the stories is about the only part I like about organized religion...no one else can tell you how to love Him...you just do...by loving everyone around you...no matter how hard it is...you kinda love Him too...because I have been taught...as I'm sure we all have...that He is in us all... Thank you for your kind words :) I think through learning each others cultures and customs and that they are not too different after all will help us to bring the peace in this world that we seek. Its a hard job...but thanks to understanding people like you guys...we might be able to inch it along even more...

...hare krisna and peace be with you all :)

[sleeping jiva]

thanks for your hope & for your great soul :) peace to you and all the world. We are not different from each other.

[NightOwl1331]

I have respect for the Hare Krishnas, I really do. I respect all religions. But being a Hindu who follows the philiosophies of Advaita Vedanta, I cannot help but feel that they missed the point somewhere. It is said that God (Brahman, the Immensity) is without name, without form, indeed It is beyond all form because It created all form. Saying that Krishna is actually the supreme godhead is missing the point of that.
I was given a book about India with a Hare Krishna view on things. They spoke of the teachings that the supreme godhead is as I said, beyond all names and forms. And they even say that there are teachings that say that all forms of God are but different aspects of the supreme god. But then on the next page they talk about how in the Mahabharata Krishna says that in fact he is the supreme godhead and all other gods must bow to him. To me this is just missing the whole point. I really don't mean to offend. I love Krishna too! But I know that he is one of the many manifestations of God as are the other deities.

[sleeping jiva]

well, why do you think Hare Krishnas missed the point? There is only one person, who controls all demigods. If you praying to demigods so you can have something -that's materialism. Of course it works, but materialistic way of thinking is an attachment to maya. We can never understand Krishna, because he is the creator of everything, but we can love Him. Love is the most important thing. If you don't love, you're practically doomed to selfishness. If you read some of the Krishna related literature, you may think that they say two different things, but the truth is Krishna is everything -even the impersonal philosophy. He's also maya. He's the controler of the three modes of material nature: ignorance, passion, goodness. We think in the terms of "me" and the world, the truth is Krishna is me and Krishna is the world. Brahmajoti is the radiance, which comes from Krishna. If you want to merge with it, you actually can, but there's still long way to go, until you may find the blessing in form of devotioanl service to lord Krishna. Hare Krishnas serve to Krishna directly. Why should you go by stairs, when you can use an elevator? -as Srila Prabhupada said :) Why should we pray to gods for material things, when these things are the reason of our entanglement in this world full of misery? Love Krishna and selfishness will fade away.

Thank you for your respect for Krishnas. I respect you :)

[NightOwl1331]

Let me explain what I mean more in depth. In the upanishads there is the idea of Brahman. That is not so much a name for a God, but a way to talk about the formless aspect of God. The formless aspect is what underlies all names, all forms, everything in existence. It has to be beyond form because it created all forms. And it has no one face, no one personality that we can know because it is beyond all forms. Let's put it this way...if God created everything then God would not be subject to those laws. If God created time and space and all the dualities of this world, then God is not subject to those. If God were, then something else would have created those things and then we're not talking about the same thing anymore. See what I mean?
That's the point I'm talking about. That the supreme godhead is beyond all forms because it created all forms. Calling it Krishna and giving it an image and a personality is missing that point. And if the Hare Krishnas are talking about the same ideas, then calling it Krishna instead of Brahman is just an ego thing. Just like saying "my god is the real god and yours is not." Doesn't matter what name you call it if you are talking about the same thing. And if they do have all those same ideas then its still Hinduism, they just call Brahman a different name and have some different practices...like all other Hindus. To me the Hare Krishnas are no different than the Vaishnavites or Shaivites or any other sect that jumps up and says "No...God is called by this name, not that name!" And they can't get along because of it. And they're missing the whole point. See what I mean? And again...I do not want to offend. It just makes me so sad to see people not getting along when they're talking about the same things and just using different words for it. There are many paths up the mountain but they all lead to the same summit.

Try reading the Upanishads, Alain Danielou's theories of Hindu Polytheism, and the Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna. They explain it much better than I can.

[gdkumar]

Dear NightOwl1331,

Thanks for the beautiful post. Please calm down.

From your post I can easily understand that Sri Ramakrishna is talking through you. Such is His grace and compassion. You are the blessed one.

It is so tiring and frustrating at times that we love the same God but we behave as if it is not one but all different Gods. Just different names have caused all the problems because we have not seen God. By the names we want to establish that my name is right and my God is the complete God.

Had it been only the formless God(Brahma) probably there would have been lesser problems.

I love Krishna, I just love Him. I love Him not because He is God, how do I know whether He is God or not until and unless someday He tells me. I just cannot help but love Him. I do not know the reason. We all love babies, why we do not know.We do not ask for the babies' names,religion, cast or creed.
We just love babies.

Let others also love Kali, Bishnu, Allah or Christ as intensely as possible.

Why bring the name of God. God is a far distant thing.
Let us first of all learn to love with all sincerity and heart then God will come near in our hearts to tell us what is what.

Interpretation of the Gita or any other book should be easily understood by all of us but it is not possible without His grace and compassion.That is the divine game. Krishna says He is God and He is in the heart of every being, He is everything, without Him nothing can exist.Let us accept if we believe in the Gita.

So Krishna is inside a goat also and the goat's legs are His legs,head is His head, mouth is His mouth and eyes are His eyes and so on, meaning that He only has become the goat. Now if anybody says that goat is God, should we jump up and say ,"No,only Krishna is God."?

I love SleepingJeeva. I am sure he knows Krishna only and intensely loves Him.
By His Grace and compassion he shall realize that I have no intention to hurt him or anybody else. I myself cannot do without Krishna.

I miss Looking Somewhere Distant. He could have greatly helped all of us. If he has changed name I hope, he will show up now.

Jaya Gopala, Jaya Govinda, Jaya Murari.

With love and prayers............Kumar.

[sleeping jiva]

oh thank you gdkumar deeply.

you're so helpful! I wouldn't say it in a better way. I'm always so happy when you join this discussion. I love you. You said it all. Love is the most important thing. If you love everything that means if you love God, you cannot be selfish. And if you really do love God, you have no problems with Krishna, or Jesus, Allah, Budha names, because it is the same thing. I feel that by the help of Gita, you can be better in whatever God you believe in. You can be better Christian for example. Form and name are still in our material terminology, because one is percieved by eye and the second by ear. Our senses are limited, so we can never see/hear the complete truth, but when you love God, you see Him everywhere. Please love God, because that is the only true love. Haribol!

I miss Looking Somewhere Distant's great insights too, let's hope he will return. wonder where he is.

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

oh thank you gdkumar deeply.

you're so helpful! I wouldn't say it in a better way. I'm always so happy when you join this discussion. I love you. You said it all. Love is the most important thing. If you love everything that means if you love God, you cannot be selfish. And if you really do love God, you have no problems with Krishna, or Jesus, Allah, Budha names, because it is the same thing. I feel that by the help of Gita, you can be better in whatever God you believe in. You can be better Christian for example. Form and name are still in our material terminology, because one is percieved by eye and the second by ear. Our senses are limited, so we can never see/hear the complete truth, but when you love God, you see Him everywhere. Please love God, because that is the only true love. Haribol!

I miss Looking Somewhere Distant's great insights too, let's hope he will return. wonder where he is.
I love you too jdkumar! And sleeping jiva...I very much agree with and love you too! Love and hugs all around :)

[sleeping jiva]

Such is the power of Krishna related topics :)

You're certainly a special person SvgGrdn Beauty. May the wisdom and love never abandon you. As Sri Krishna says: "The one who does good won't be ever overcome by evil."

I also would like to thank NightOwl and please her to continue with her points of view, so we can discuss more.

[NightOwl1331]

Dear NightOwl1331,
From your post I can easily understand that Sri Ramakrishna is talking through you. Such is His grace and compassion. You are the blessed one.


You're the 3rd person to tell me that in the past month. A great change has come over me recently. I can see the unity of all religions and it brings such pain to me that people are always in disagreement. I have this feeling that I want to tell everyone that everything is fine; there is no need to worry! God does exist! I see God in everything! God is not some guy up in the clouds, God is right here. We are a part of God and we have never been nor will we ever be seperate from It. I just want to somehow help people to understand that. I think one of the first steps is to realize that names are just that...names. People seem to forget that. A rose by any other name smells just as sweet.
I am familiar with the Bhagavad Gita, but I think the message is more important than the fact that someone with the name "Krishna" said it. God has many faces in its form as the Divine Multiplicity. I happen to love Krishna more than I can possibly express, but I do not think that is God's ultimate form because I feel that God is beyond form. God is beyond human ideas and we could never grasp the ultimate reality of God. That would be like trying to see the whole universe from where I'm sitting here in Florida.
It seems that most people see that other people call God by a different name so they feel that those people are wrong and they never look past the names and discover the underlying unity of all religions. I see much more similarity in religions than I do difference. As I've said...there are many paths up the mountain, but they all lead to the same summit. I think that whatever path you're on is fine, but problems arise when people start to feel that there is only one path. Here is how I see it...
We can never see the whole form of a statue at one time. We never see the whole of any 3-dimentional object at one time. We can see the back, the front, the profile...but not all at once. But we can walk around the statue and build up an image in our mind of what the whole form looks like, but we never actually see the whole form at one time. And if one person were to look only at the front and one look only at the back then those two people would surely be in some disagreement about what that statue is like. You could say that God is like that statue, we can never grasp the whole form. And the different paths and methods are like looking at God from different angles. And people may arrive at seemingly contradictory conslusions because they are only seeing one angle. But if we can understand that these are just different angles then we can start to build up some conception of the true nature of things. And that, to me, is a beautiful thing...the thought that there are all these people on earth trying to get a glimpse of those different angles. That is how my mind works at least. :)

[gdkumar]

Dear Sleeping Jiva,

Thank you so much for your kind post.
Honestly it is a great relief for me.

Suddenly there is a blissful feeling, everything is so beautiful. A feeling of getting drowned into the ocean of love and serenity. Thank you again.

Glory to my Guru and all for enabling me to experience this feeling.

With love........Kumar.

[gdkumar]

Dear SvgGrdnBeauty,

Thank you for your kind post.

They say, simplicity is the best quality of a human being and simplicity is the first sign of enlightment. My dear beautiful soul, your simplicity touches my heart.

May God fulfil all your cherished wishes.
With love.......Kumar.

[gdkumar]

Dear NightOwl1331,

It is a wonderful post! Thank you.

You have already gone so deep into the subject! No wonder, your vision is so clear. To attain your level of understanding people spend their whole lives. It is so pleasing to note that you are so rich in your thoughts at this tender age.

I find a surprising similarity with Know1nozme.I find same maturity, style of writing and command over the language.

However, you have said it all so beautifully.It has immensely helped me and I hope this post will help and enrich all other seekers as well.

May God fulfil all your wishes.

With love........Kumar.

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

Aww...all you guys...thank you so much. I am indeed learning new things and I thank you all for your beautiful words as I try and find my way back from the dark cloud of materialism...this time it is with new eyes and new discovery...

...you are all indeed beautiful souls...keep it up...it is people like you who have the power to change the world!

[sleeping jiva]

Nightowl: iI really liked your thingy about 3-dimensional objects and how we can never see them in the whole. That's truly the most interesting realization I've bumped into for the recent time.

I was reading Bhagavadgita the other night and I was amazed how clearly Srila Prabhupada explains the importance of personal understanding of God. In fact Krishna says that it is possible to go by the impersonal path too. My point is, Hare Krishna can never be a religion because it as the only one accepts all manifestations of God. Therefore it's not true, that it would claim Krishna as the only way. It explains why this love to God is so important by logical explanations. Even though, the devotional service is hard to understand if you don't practice it, there are plenty of arguments which explain it for non-devotees in the books of Srila Prabhupada.
Moreover, I have to react on your claim that Bhagavadgita is manipulated by people. The message is carried from generation to generation by parampara -succession of the spiritual teachers. In order to preserve the words of Krishna as they were uttered by Him on the battlefield of Kuruksetra, the message of Bhagavadgita was given to Arjuna, who heard this message as first, then Arjuna gave it his disciple and so on until it reached Srila Prabhupada. These teachers weren't cheaters, they not only understood this message on intellectual platform, they lived by the principles of devotional service. There are lot of people, who changed the words of Bhagavadgita so they can appeal to masses -they left out some of the strict regulations of Krishna so they can achieve material succes(either fame, money or both). But the Gita with commentary from Srila Prabhupada is unchanged and appears in the exact same form as it was explained by Sri Krishna Himself. Of course you can say that it is not truth, that Vaishnavas adjusted Krishna's words but you need to prove that before accusing of such a horrible crime.


Here's the passage I've found in Gita, I hope you'll understand it more after. (and you'll see the point of Hare Krishnas :):) )


TEXT 5

TEXT

©e-Xaae_iDak-TarSTaezaMaVYa¢-aSa¢-ceTaSaaMa( )
AVYa¢-a ih GaiTaduR"%& dehviÙrvaPYaTae )) 5 ))

kleço ’dhikataras teñäm

avyaktäsakta-cetasäm

avyaktä hi gatir duùkhaà

dehavadbhir aväpyate

kleçaù—trouble; adhikataraù—more troublesome; teñäm—of them; avyakta—unmanifested; äsakta—being attached; cetasäm—of those whose minds; avyaktä—unmanifested; hi—certainly; gatiù duùkham—progress is troublesome; dehavadbhiù—ofthe embodiments; aväpyate—achieve.

TRANSLATION

For those whose minds are attached to the unmanifested, impersonal feature of the Supreme, advancement is very troublesome. To make progrese in that discipline is always difficult for those who are embodied.

PURPORT

The group of transcendentalists who follow the path of the inconceivable, unmanifested, impersonal feature of the Supreme Lord are called jïäna-yogés, and persons who are in full Kåñëa consciousness, engaged in devotional service to the Lord, are called bhakti-yogés. Now, here the difference between jïäna-yoga and bhakti-yoga isdefinitely expressed. The process of jïäna-yoga, although ultimately bringing one to the same goal, is very troublesome, whereas the path of bhakti-yoga, the process of being in direct service to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is easier and is natural for the embodied soul. The individual soul is embodied since time immemorial. It is very difficult for him to simply theoretically understand that he is not the body. Therefore, the bhakti-yogé accepts the Deity of Kåñëa as worshipable because there is some bodily conception fixed in the mind, which can thus be applied. Of course, worship of the Supreme Personality of Godhead in His form within the temple is not idol worship. There is evidence in the Vedic literature that worship may be saguëa and nirguëa—of the Supreme possessing or not possessing attributes. Worship of the Deity in the temple is saguëa worship, for the Lord is represented by material qualities. But the form of the Lord, though represented by material qualities such as stone, wood, or oil paint, is not actually material. That is the absolute nature of the Supreme Lord.

A crude example may be given here. We may find some mailboxes on the street, and if we post our letters in those boxes, they will naturally go to their destination without difficulty. But any old box, or an imitation, which we may find somewhere, which is not authorized by the post office, will not do the work. Similarly, God has an authorized representation in the Deity form, which is called arca-vigraha. This arca-vigraha isan incarnation of the Supreme Lord. God will accept service through that form. The Lord is omnipotent and all-powerful; therefore, by His incarnation as arca-vigraha, He can accept the services of the devotee, just to make it convenient for the man in conditioned life.

So, for a devotee, there is no difficulty in approaching the Supreme immediately and directly, but for those who are following the impersonal way to spiritual realization, the path is difficult. They have to understand the unmanifested representation of the Supreme through such Vedic literatures as the Upaniñads, and they have to learn the language, understand the nonperceptual feelings, and they have to realize all these processes. This is not very easy for a common man. A person in Kåñëa consciousness, engaged in devotional service, simply by the guidance of the bona fide spiritual master, simply by offering regulative obeisances unto the Deity, simply by hearing the glories of the Lord, and simply by eating the remnants of foodstuffs offered to the Lord, realizes the Supreme Personality of Godhead very easily. There is no doubt that the impersonalists are unnecessarily taking a troublesome path with the risk of not realizing the Absolute Truth at the ultimate end. But the personalist, without any risk, trouble, or difficulty, approaches the Supreme Personality directly. A similar passage appears in Çrémad-Bhägavatam. It is stated there that if one has to ultimately surrender unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead (This surrendering process is called bhakti.), but instead takes the trouble to understand what is Brahman and what is not Brahman and spends his whole life in that way, the result is simply troublesome. Therefore it is advised here that one should not take up this troublesome path of self-realization because there is uncertainty in the ultimate result.

A living entity is eternally an individual soul, and if he wants to merge into the spiritual whole, he may accomplish the realization of the eternal and knowledgeable aspects of his original nature, but the blissful portion is not realized. By the grace of some devotee, such a transcendentalist, highly learned in the process of jïäna-yoga, may come to the point of bhakti-yoga, or devotional service. At that time, long practice in impersonalism also becomes a source of trouble, because he cannot give up the idea. Therefore an embodied soul is always in difficulty with the unmanifest, both at the time of practice and at the time of realization. Every living soul is partially independant, and one should know for certain that this unmanifested realization is against the nature of his spiritual blissful self. One should not take up this process. For every individual living entity the process of Kåñëa consciousness, which entails full engagement in devotional service, is the best way. If one wants to ignore this devotional service, there is the danger of turning to atheism. Thus this process of centering attention on the unmanifested, the inconceivable, which is beyond the approach of the senses, as already expressed in this verse, should never be encouraged at any time, especially in this age. It is not advised by Lord Kåñëa.

[NightOwl1331]

Moreover, I have to react on your claim that Bhagavadgita is manipulated by people.
I never said that. I said that what is more important to me is the words in the text, not the fact that it was Krishna who said it. Each person who reads a certain text is going to get something different out of it and that's fine. And I think that our understanding of things increases over time. I am in the habit of rereading certain texts because each time I read them I get something different out of them.

And there are different paths for everyone. I feel comfortable on the path of knowledge. It fits with me. Maybe it is troublesome for some, but it does not seem that way to me. It is the right path for me. I don't have to struggle to be on it, it comes naturally. And I understand that the path of love is not any worse or better than any other path. For me Bhakti yoga is fraught with difficulties. If it works for others then that's wonderful. :)

I feel that, no matter what path you are on, it is important to realize that God is with and without form. We are part of God, as is this universe with all of its material forms and names. Everything is part of God. All things spring from God, so there can exist no object or idea that is not divine in its nature. Any name or form that a worshipper can conceive of is all part of God. But God is not just that. God is Its material form and Its Immense, unknowable, formlessness. And I think that without knowing of both then you are only seeing one side of the coin. But this is the viewpoint of a jnana yogi. Any thoughts?

[SpringSnow]

'Hare Krishna' is a devotional religion fit for slavish natures, a religious regurgitation in an age of decay. It is a monotheist attempt to interpret the Aryan warrior message of the Bhagavad and sell it to the Judeo-Christian masses.

Mind you, I'm not criticizing people in the movement: if chanting mantras in a foreign language is what makes you feel spiritual, good for you. I just don't see how Hare Krishna (100% Semitic in spirit) is significantly different from the devotional, ethical religion of Christianity (also fit for slavish natures, as a guy named Nietzsche observed some time ago...). Different book, same message of submission to universalist monotheism.

[cerridwen]

I went downtown once to watch the fire works, and these Krishna's about my age were all dancing together, singing their chant... I started dancing with them! It was a lot of fun... Ah, what a good group of people.... Always happy!

[sleeping jiva]

Night Owl: I definetely agree with you in every aspect. I don't see just one side of a coin. :) Maybe I do sometimes :) -but that's ignorance. The path of knowledge for me is the same as the path of love, because only by love (I mean pure love not because you want something) you can be given knowledge, and only by developing your knowledge you can attain a state, when you love with no interuption. Yeah, God is everywhere, some people just think that He's not and that makes it harder for them. Because then they're in chaos. Spring Snow: Nietzche was a devotee of Krishna. He said it in one of his books: "If I believed in God, he would have to dance." Well, I was reading papers the other time and Pope banned dancing during masses the other time. Hare Krishnas dance a lot :) ,also they simply cannot eat meat. In fact I'd say that Hare Krishnas are even more Christians than Chrisitans. Jesus said: "Thou shalt not kill!"as one of his first commands. Well, animal slughterhouses are stillgoing on in the Christian west.
Where there is a slave, there must be a master. Hare Krishnas master is Krishna, materialistic people's master is greed. Either you serve Krishna, or you serve greed. You're certainly not a master. If you'd been a master , your senses wouldn't have control over you. Nietzche is one of my favourite philosophers and deeply admire him. His points are not very different from Bhagavadgita. Truly - a great soul!

[ChiefCowpie]

Jesus said: "Thou shalt not kill!"as one of his first commands.
it was actually a mosaic code and not from jesus...jesus spoke in parables and not commands as well...he was a rather cryptic dude and so the interpretations of his teachings are wide and varied as well as what became his teachings has been edited

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

it was actually a mosaic code and not from jesus...jesus spoke in parables and not commands as well...he was a rather cryptic dude and so the interpretations of his teachings are wide and varied as well as what became his teachings has been edited
He actually had two commandments...they are taught as the "Laws of Love"...one is Love God with your whole heart, whole soul, and whole body and the other was to Love your neighbor as you love your God...other than that...he did speak in parables...

[ChiefCowpie]

"Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.This is the first and greatest commandment.And the second is like unto it, thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." Matthew 22: 37-40

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

"Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.This is the first and greatest commandment.And the second is like unto it, thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." Matthew 22: 37-40
That was it! hehe...I was close...it was mind not body...ah well...

[BlackBillBlake]

I'd like to come in here and say that the Hare Krishna movement as brought to the west by A.c. Bhaktivedanta has had major problems, and continues to have major problems with its' so-called gurus, many of whom have 'fallen' from grace and from their positions in the movement, and some of whom have been implicated in serious criminal activity, including drug dealing, child-abuse. prostitution.


This is a fact, and it is also a fact that the Krishna Consciousness movement represents only one fact of the whole body of Hindu philosophy with regard to Krishna. They are what would be characterized in the west as fundamentalists, but the truth is they can't even agree among themselves!

Two Links:

http://www.iskconirm.com/


http://mitglied.lycos.de/gbc/black/bogus4.htm

The second of these details some of the mis-deeds of the bogus HK 'gurus'.

[sleeping jiva]

I was never a member of ISCKON, I just read Bhaktivedanta's books, yet I consider them a good thing to be -they spread Krishna consciousness and that's how one of the prints of Bhagavadgita came to me :). I was blessed, now I see it all. I don't feel very learned about Krishna, but I'm trying to put this question in front of you: Are you able to say any opinion about Krishna, when you don't know what is it about? Can you judge without knowing it deeper?
What is knowing it deeper?
When I started reading Bhagavadgita I was simply trying to find a substitute for drugs I was using (psychedelics), because I knew that one day I wouldn't be able to get the same buzz. I was open. I didn't believe in God, but I believed that I'm not the one who knows everything. When I started reading the first thing, which strucked me was Srila Bhaktivedanta as though saying: Love Krishna, otherwise you won't be able to understand. To understand logically is good, but your senses will overcome even your inteligence. So I said to myself - I'm gonna love Krishna, if it's true I'll understand better, if it's not I'll go by a different path. It's nothing you have to write with your blood on a lease :) It's just that easy. You say to yourself: I love you, the one, who is everything. I love everything. you just start to take your fight against egotism seriously. I'm still in this and so far I wrote to many forums -the reactions were very similar: "Hare Krishna is not good period." but nobody had arguments for saying that. They say: "It forces you to love and they're not logical. " but their reaction doesn't seem logical to me -how can you say without experiencing? Especially when the experience is so easy to achieve? Just chant the mahamantra and explore it by yourself. Don't let others control your mind! For me people saying: The image of Hare Krishna I have in my head is not good. If you'd studied (or at least tried to chant mahamantra (see below)) Bhagavadgita or Srimad Bhagavatam and then said : this is not bad, because that and that. I would take your opinion as valid. But we devotees know that as soon as you taste the nectar of loving service to Lord Sri Krsihna your heart will melt. :)

Those crimes have nothing to do with Krishna consciousness. If you studied Bhagavadgita you'd know that in Krishna consciousness, the first step is to control your senses. Fundamentalists -what does it mean? That Krishna devotees make bombs? hehehe just kiddin', but we don't force our belief on anybody -that is a fact. It is one of the devotees principles: Don't confuse materialists! It is an offense to preach about glory of the Holy Names to non-devotees.
Have you ever meet devotees, talk to them, ever been in a temple? have you read Bhagavadgita with purports of Srila Bhaktivedanta? . If not, you're not eligible to say this is Krishna consciousness.Srila Prabhupada dedicated a great amount in his books to explain that demons are exploiting Bhagavadgita and the message of Lord Sri Krishna. If somebody acts agianst the scriptures he's not a guru, but a cheater. We should always question our master, not just blindly obey. We should be very polite though, because you can make an offense.

Be blessed!
Haribol!

[BlackBillBlake]

Sleeping Jiva - I have read many of Srila Prabhupada's books over a period of many years, I have often met Devotees and I have had very positive experiences in connection with Sri Krishna. I am not criticizing Prabhupada as a phoney, only those who have sought to occupy the position of Guru on false pretences.

A close freind of mine is a former Devotee of one of the eleven sucessors who claimed they were appointed by prabhupada to be Initiating Gurus after his passing from this world, Jayatirtha. He subsequently split with the mainstream movement and told his followers to take LSD to see Krishna. Jayatirtha was later murdered in a gruesome manner by another follower who it is claimed, had become mentally ill. The followers who were left have mainly left the HK movement, and some have had many problems as a result of their experiences.

I myself met one of the now 'fallen' gurus - Gurudeva, at Croombe court in England in the early 1980's. At the time, he struck me as one devoid of any spirirual prescence whatsoever, a total phoney. Later, he absconded with a female follower and a large amount of money. I believe he eventually faced charges of embezellment.

It is clear that the actions of these people would have come in for severe censure were Prabhupada still around. In their cases, and perhaps in many others, it is clear that bad things have been done, with no motive other than gross personal gain, sensual pleasure, and agrandizement of persons with no spiritual realization or Knowlege.

It is not enough to simply repeat platitudes, all of this philosophy is useless unless put intp actual practice. Facts are facts, and no amount of causistry can change them.

It seems to me that the Iskcon Reform people represent the only hope for the movement in the west.

But I repeat also my previous point, that Gadiya Vaishnavism represents only one small sect within the vast Hindu tradition, and perhaps a narrow and dogmatic one at that.

[YogaLady]

Sleeping Jiva - I have read many of Srila Prabhupada's books over a period of many years, I have often met Devotees and I have had very positive experiences in connection with Sri Krishna. I am not criticizing Prabhupada as a phoney, only those who have sought to occupy the position of Guru on false pretences.

A close freind of mine is a former Devotee of one of the eleven sucessors who claimed they were appointed by prabhupada to be Initiating Gurus after his passing from this world, Jayatirtha. He subsequently split with the mainstream movement and told his followers to take LSD to see Krishna. Jayatirtha was later murdered in a gruesome manner by another follower who it is claimed, had become mentally ill. The followers who were left have mainly left the HK movement, and some have had many problems as a result of their experiences.

I myself met one of the now 'fallen' gurus - Gurudeva, at Croombe court in England in the early 1980's. At the time, he struck me as one devoid of any spirirual prescence whatsoever, a total phoney. Later, he absconded with a female follower and a large amount of money. I believe he eventually faced charges of embezellment.

It is clear that the actions of these people would have come in for severe censure were Prabhupada still around. In their cases, and perhaps in many others, it is clear that bad things have been done, with no motive other than gross personal gain, sensual pleasure, and agrandizement of persons with no spiritual realization or Knowlege.

It is not enough to simply repeat platitudes, all of this philosophy is useless unless put intp actual practice. Facts are facts, and no amount of causistry can change them.

It seems to me that the Iskcon Reform people represent the only hope for the movement in the west.

But I repeat also my previous point, that Gadiya Vaishnavism represents only one small sect within the vast Hindu tradition, and perhaps a narrow and dogmatic one at that.

I disagree completely with the last comment about dogma, but also know why Hare Krishna devotees are sometimes viewed that way. The rest, I basically agree with.

What were devotees thinking when the new gurus were "appointed?" Prabhupada spent years upon years saying never to vote anyone in as guru, thats not how to select anyone as qualified as guru, yet we fell for it? Then again, they lied to us, cheated, said it was Prabhuapda's instructions. It was not. His instruction was that these guys be ritivk, thats all. That means that everyone still is his disciple, because he could not see anyone else qualified so he still has to take our karma on his head. Yet is lovingly willing accepted. These "authorities" to this day do not follow that instruction and even fight it tooth and nail, quick to make you suffer or kick you out of the temple if you dare to say you are a "ritvik" devotee. They dont want to give up power or position.

Dont please to confuse them or their actions, with Prabhupada or what he started. What he originally began is pure, was pure, remains pure (not in the puritanical sense of the word, but in trasncendental sense of the word, unchanged by human hands). What is going on now is not the same movement Prabhupada started. Thats also why you see so many weird things said about what people 'think' we believe, even on this thread, cuz of the strange new preaching and new management since he left or appears to have left. They don't repeat what he taught, but preach controling, manipulating things which makes people think we are mindless zombies, or some other strange beliefs, but its not their fault. Its whats being taught these days. Its not the truth of what we believe though. Too bad such misgivings are being accepted even by open minded hippies, and they dont check it out more deeply and see what really went down. That is done to the govt so hope some hppies will understand we wound up with a govt too, and they did all this to us.

YL

[sleeping jiva]

I know nothing about those "fallen" gurus. I heard something here and there, but I have no clue about it. The deeds they committed have nothing to do with Prabhupada's books in my opinion. Yes, the victims are a miserable thing and I'm deeply sorry for the suffering they must have come through, but the worst thing is that demons spread this horrible propaganda and they distorted Prabhupada's message. I think that is even worse than to be indifferent to the teachings of Krishna. But I think Prabhupada himself said: Just read my books, you'll find everything there. We should always ask for unclear things. The master is Lord Krishna, we should obey Him and serve Him! That's why it can't be dogma. In dogma you have to obey materialistic people, who don't like questioning. The pure devotee (in my opinion) should be able to explain everything also on intelectual basis.

[YogaLady]

I know nothing about those "fallen" gurus. I heard something here and there, but I have no clue about it. The deeds they committed have nothing to do with Prabhupada's books in my opinion. Yes, the victims are a miserable thing and I'm deeply sorry for the suffering they must have come through, but the worst thing is that demons spread this horrible propaganda and they distorted Prabhupada's message. I think that is even worse than to be indifferent to the teachings of Krishna. But I think Prabhupada himself said: Just read my books, you'll find everything there. We should always ask for unclear things. The master is Lord Krishna, we should obey Him and serve Him! That's why it can't be dogma. In dogma you have to obey materialistic people, who don't like questioning. The pure devotee (in my opinion) should be able to explain everything also on intelectual basis.

Yes, yes, just read his books. How sublime and enlightening his books are! Though we also have to clean up the mess made by these others cuz just look and see, even here the hippies think Hare Krishna's are just people who 'need' someone to follow, or need a mantra to chant and become zombies, or our 'religion' is a dogma. None of which Prabhuada taught! Twisted, not by them, but those who spoke to them maybe. Who knows. What a mess we did not make but somehow have to do the cleaing up for Lord Caitanya.

YL

[sleeping jiva]

We should not judge a book by its cover. When somebody tells you: "That is that!" You should always question him. Don't be stupid, realise, it is always your individual path, don't make others to make decisions for you. Guru is a great person, but he's supossed to awaken God consciousness within you. It is never "öut" there, it's always "inside" of you. You need to experience it on your own. I think that was a part of Prabhupada's message. Just chant and make a relation with God yourself, you don't need anything to get you there. The books he wrote were full of this, therefore they can't be treated as something you "need". It's not that materialistic realm. They're totally pure. If your eyes are dirty, you simply cannot see them as they are, cuz you see dirt everywhere.

[sleeping jiva]

Black Bill Blake: I'm sorry for my words on your account. That's great you read Prabhupada's books. You're certinaly enlightened! I was just saying that to everybody -it wasn't really to you, if you read them. Please forgive my anger, it was not addressed to you, but to those who judge without knowing the object of their judgement.

[YogaLady]

We should not judge a book by its cover. When somebody tells you: "That is that!" You should always question him. Don't be stupid, realise, it is always your individual path, don't make others to make decisions for you. Guru is a great person, but he's supossed to awaken God consciousness within you. It is never "öut" there, it's always "inside" of you. You need to experience it on your own. I think that was a part of Prabhupada's message. Just chant and make a relation with God yourself, you don't need anything to get you there. The books he wrote were full of this, therefore they can't be treated as something you "need". It's not that materialistic realm. They're totally pure. If your eyes are dirty, you simply cannot see them as they are, cuz you see dirt everywhere.

Yes. What many dont know, even in ISKCON itself, is that when the deovtees would chant "Jai Prabhupada" over and over, though this is bona fide, but he would not be so much fond of that and even would tell them to chant Hare Krishna - Gods name.

YL

[BlackBillBlake]

I think that Prabhupada's books are a valuable contribution to our understanding of Krishna, and it seems he personally stuck to the rules. My complaint on this level is that none of the so called successors have done so, and there is some dispute as to whether Prabhupada actually intended them to become initiating gurus. According to the ISCKON reform movement people, they were supposed only to be Ritviks, a kind of lesser position where they would initiate in the name of Prabhupada.
If you are not aware of the controversy, please check out the links in my original post on this subject. A very good free magazine is available from ISKCONIRM.
Also though, there is little doubt in my mind that the Krishna'a are dogmatic, and inclined too much to believe what they've been told rather than what they really know to be the truth - and as I say, Gaudiya Vaishnavism is only one among many Hindu sects. Why should one believe them and not any of the others? Because they claim it's the highest? But so, for example , do Roman Catholics. It is certainly unwise to settle on this without checking out other versions according to other paths.

[SpringSnow]

I comletely agree with your points, BlackBillBlake.

I believe devotional religions (including Vaishnavism) may be good for some people or some ethnic groups, but definitely not for all. The Hare Krishna movement's attempt to universalize certain Hindu practices has much to do with the influence of Christianity and its proselytizing (missionary, monotheistic, intolerant) spirit on Srila Prabhupada.

[YogaLady]

I comletely agree with your points, BlackBillBlake.

I believe devotional religions (including Vaishnavism) may be good for some people or some ethnic groups, but definitely not for all. The Hare Krishna movement's attempt to universalize certain Hindu practices has much to do with the influence of Christianity and its proselytizing (missionary, monotheistic, intolerant) spirit on Srila Prabhupada.

Thank you SpringSnow for your post, tho I feel compelled to point out some misunderstandings. Hare Krishan's do not claim to be Hindu's at all, and the practice is nondogmatic. But if you consider committment as dogmatic, then I guess we fit there. lol I also dont understand whats so wrong with wanting to universalize God or a spiriutal path that is sublime. This universalizing doesn't mean we are saying you (or anyone) has to agree, even its ok to disagree, but those are our teachings. No one has to like them, but they should know them if going to criticize them. I mean, saying we are good for "some" people sort of sounds like those people are the loosers or spiriutal weaklings. lol Maybe thats not what was intended.

And prosylitizing - all pure devotees of all religions have done that, or instructed followers to do it. Seems to be what God wants, tho I will agree there are many who don't know how and can therefore be very annoying, and dsirespectful of others beliefs.

I haven't read BlackBillBlakes post, so can't say anything yet.

YL

[YogaLady]

I think that Prabhupada's books are a valuable contribution to our understanding of Krishna, and it seems he personally stuck to the rules. My complaint on this level is that none of the so called successors have done so, and there is some dispute as to whether Prabhupada actually intended them to become initiating gurus. According to the ISCKON reform movement people, they were supposed only to be Ritviks, a kind of lesser position where they would initiate in the name of Prabhupada.
If you are not aware of the controversy, please check out the links in my original post on this subject. A very good free magazine is available from ISKCONIRM.
Also though, there is little doubt in my mind that the Krishna'a are dogmatic, and inclined too much to believe what they've been told rather than what they really know to be the truth - and as I say, Gaudiya Vaishnavism is only one among many Hindu sects. Why should one believe them and not any of the others? Because they claim it's the highest? But so, for example , do Roman Catholics. It is certainly unwise to settle on this without checking out other versions according to other paths.

BlackBillBlake

I completely agree with all you say about the so called successors. Its a fact that they try to hide where Prabhupada never told them to be initiating guru's. And yes, I'm aware of the controversy. That is why I posted as I did, that they chagned so much of what Prabhupada taught. Thanks for posting the IRM link though. Many devotees knew about this before they existed because there has been such a deviation from Prabhuapda, which has a lot of kindhearted devotees angry and fried. Its also why many new to the Hare Krishna philosophy do not know what Prabhupada's true teachings are these days. Not only are these new guys initiating, they've even changed his books!

As for being the only way, I think anyone who reads Prabhupada's (original) books will see he never says in there this is the only lineage, but that there are other sampradayas as well as other pure devotee individuals on this planet. Most just dont know how to recognize them. Regarding Catholics and overall Christianity, Prabhupada explains that anyone who truthfully follows that will be liberated. He says this for any bona fide religion too, including Muslim.

YL

[YogaLady]

Here are a few things Prabhupada said on the topics we just mentioned:

Prabhupada: "Yes, this Krsna consciousness movement is not a sentimental religious system. It is science and philosophy. The attempt is to awaken God consciousness. God is neither Christian nor Hindu nor Muslim. God is God. There may be angles of vision to approach God, but God is one." Srila Prabhupada speaks to La Trobe University, Melbourne , July 1, 74

"If one advocates the Hindu religion, the Muslim religion, the Christian religion, this religion or that religion, there will be conflicts. History shows that followers of religious systems without a clear conception of God have fought with one another." Srila Prabhupada, Srimad Bhagavatam 6. 16. 41

"One should know his identification. At the present moment, identification is going on by the skin. "I am Indian," "I am American." This is going on. But that is not our proper identification. The proper identification is aham brahmasmi: "I am spirit soul." This is to be understood in human form of life." Srila Prabhupada lecture, Srimad Bhagavatam 1.2.6, May 24, 74, Rome Italy


If this doesn't clear things up, let me know. Thanks for your tolerance (cuz I realize, and accept, that many disagree with me) and patience. To each their own.

YL

[BlackBillBlake]

Yoga Lady - thanks for your kind words, and I am glad to know you are aware of the extent to which some have distorted Prabhupada's mission. As I said in my pevious post, I think His books are a very great contribution, and whatever path one eventually follows, all can derive benefit from the repitition of Krishna's Name. It would be a shame though if one's exploration of Indian Philosophy and Religion, Yoga etc, were to stop with the works of only one man, representing only one aspect, one vision of the truth.

[YogaLady]

Yoga Lady - thanks for your kind words, and I am glad to know you are aware of the extent to which some have distorted Prabhupada's mission. As I said in my pevious post, I think His books are a very great contribution, and whatever path one eventually follows, all can derive benefit from the repitition of Krishna's Name. It would be a shame though if one's exploration of Indian Philosophy and Religion, Yoga etc, were to stop with the works of only one man, representing only one aspect, one vision of the truth.

BalckBillBlake,

This has been fun. Much of what you say, it appears we agree. Surprise, surprise! :) It happens, even with us Hare Krishna's. LOL Though total would be too good now wouldn't it? Just joking.

I think there is one confusion many make, tho I understand it. Its this (and you are not the only one who says like this, just wanted to make it clear I'm not picking on you ha.)

It would be a shame though if one's exploration of Indian Philosophy and Religion, Yoga etc, were to stop with the works of only one man, ...

It is a hard thing for many to accept, but here goes. ....

........... When a pure devotee walks the earth, let it be Jesus, Mohammad, or anyone else, they are not a "man." Tho it is so rare to have a genuine pure devotee amongst us, and many have cheated us claiming to be that, therefore we often find it hard to believe we've come across a real one. One actually sent to 'us,' or that it even happened in this modern day and age. Well, an example could be when Jesus was here cuz we see what happened to 'that' pure devotee. He was crucified for preaching. This is how some disbelieved him, (with others in grey areas). Yet enough believed to push on his Movement. It has been contaminated over time, but thats another subject. I agree there are many wonderful Vedic works of India presented by many 'men,' but we we're so blessed to have a pure soul come to us that was directly sent by God. This does not mean tho, that others who wrote wonderful Vedic (or any) literatures were not sent by God, only that we get this special opprotunity. Then we say, "Hey, I want more God. This one pure representative or Yours aint enough. I might have missed some angle or something." LOL Hey wait, am not saying you said this either. Just making a point its not always easy to recognize what has been sent our way, and so this is why Hare Krishna devotees don't wander out and about. Not cuz they are dogmatic or limiting their learning, but cuz they've all ready got a pure devotee directly sent and aint about to complain to God. ha Anyway, a pure devotee is never considered to be a body, so none of them would really be called men, or women for that matter. Must run. Wishing you well.

YL

[BlackBillBlake]

Yoga Lady - I fully appreciate your point of view - with the proviso that it can't be the thing for everybody!

[YogaLady]

Yoga Lady - I fully appreciate your point of view - with the proviso that it can't be the thing for everybody!

Well BlackBillBlake, we've probably come as far as we're going to. lol And in a sense, I can agree with you. But being me <s> I'd have to say they are missing out. Yeah, being you, you'd probalby disagree. Hey, lets agree to disagree. :)

YL

[YogaLady]

Mukunda: In one of his books, Prabhupada said that your sincere service was better than some people who had delved more deeply into Krishna consciousness but could not maintain that level of commitment. How did you feel about this?

George Harrison: Very wonderful, really. I mean it really gave me hope, because as they say, even one moment in the company of a divine person, Krishna's pure devotee, can help a tremendous amount.

And I think Prabhupada was really pleased at the idea that somebody from outside of the temple was helping to get the album made. Just the fact that he was pleased was encouraging to me. I knew he liked "The Hare Krishna Mantra" record, and he asked the devotees to play that song "Govinda." They still play it, don't they?

Mukunda: Every temple has a recording of it, and we play it each morning when the devotees assemble before the altar, before kirtana. It's an ISKCON institution, you might say.

George Harrison: And if I didn't get feedback from Prabhupada on my songs about Krishna or the philosophy, I'd get it from the devotees. That's all the encouragement I needed really. It just seemed that anything spiritual I did, either through songs, or helping with publishing the books, or whatever, really pleased him. The song I wrote, "Living in the Material World," as I wrote in I, Me, Mine, was influenced by Shrila Prabhupada. He's the one who explained to me how we're not these physical bodies. We just happen to be in them.

Like I said in the song, this place's not really what's happening. We don't belong here, but in the spiritual sky:

As l'm fated for the material world
Get frustrated in the material world
Senses never gratified
Only swelling like a tide
That could drown me in the material world
The whole point to being here, really, is to figure a way to get out.

That was the thing about Prabhupada, you see. He didn't just talk about loving Krishna and getting out of this place, but he was the perfect example. He talked about always chanting, and he was always chanting. I think that that in itself was perhaps the most encouraging thing for me. It was enough to make me try harder, to be just a little bit better. He was a perfect example of everything he preached. ~ From Interveiw "Chant and Be Happy."


Don't beat me up, LOL, I just couldn't avoid my inward temptations to post this.

YL

[sleeping jiva]

BLackBill Blake: Yes, you improve yourself by learning. But there's always a question of the driving force for your learning. Because you might also want to improve yourself, to be adored for your intelligence & knowledge by others. Your senses are the most powerful in you and if you have no control over your senses, they will swallow your inteligence too. How can you know? Me, personally I was and I am against dogma in any form and that led me to Hare Krishna philosophy. You need to be aware that dogma -it is not here as a type of path. It's always made by people, who want to gain either money or fame( what is basicly sense gratification). If your "dogma" is not to be controlled by material greed, it can't be a dogma, because it is a serious war against the things from which dogma originates.

Yoga Lady said it very clearly, nicely and well, she stole it from my head :). The thing is you don't believe that Prabhupada could be a pure devotee and that's why you can't accept this philosophy as a gift from God -Krishna. It's not vice versa. That's the whole problem. You say to yourself -No that's not possible, he cannot be perfect. there must be something wrong with it. But that's attachment to material body. Little kid is happier, because he/she will accept everything without exploring it deeper. As Yoga Lady said this is a result of experience with cheaters, exploitation, well everything what took your naivite & innocence. But with that we lost something. We lost peace in mind. We are always worried, in paranoya. Why is that? We think that this material body -that's us, but that's not true. We shouldn't worry about our material body, but concentrate on spiritual side of our lives. You can see that, when your mind is in peace, everything around you seems peaceful too.
If you attain this liberation that you're not identified with your body anymore, you have no problems with accepting anything, or even believing in everything, because you're not anything from that -those are all processes of your body. You find yourself in a position of an actor and you as though play yourself -that's how you function, when you have control over your senses.

Thank you all for your great contribution you've provided to the Hare Krishna discussion.I wish you nice day wherever you are. Harribol!

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

How incredably interesting that this seams to be the topic of the day...materialism and peace of mind in innocence. I say this because I wrote a very long journal entry all yesterday trying to explain how I have become my 12 year old self again...If you would like to read it, just PM me...I just find it very ironic that you are mentioning it. But I must say that finding myself in these past few months...I have to credit you all...the Hare Krishnas and your beautiful philosophy....now I am Christian (Roman Catholic actually...but I never followed things as they said) and I have been absorbing these different ways of thinking, I have been reading...a lot. I actually started to look up the word Hare Krisna because I had heard it in the song "My Sweet Lord" by George Harrison...and I have discovered a great many things. I can actually say that I have found my way again...my connection with God...I have found my soul again....because I started to think about it again...because something clicked...because I went out on a limb, tried something new, and chanted the Hare Krishna mantra with no guilt that it was blashphemous because God is God no matter what you call him...my Lord is still Him and Jesus is still Him and the Holy Spirit is Him in my own soul...and I have to credit some of this to you all...for helping my pave my way....

...If you would still like to read my entry, you are more than welcome...the end is pretty much what I just told you...the rest of it...it just talks about how I got lost in the first place....

...a friend of mine said the other day that only "unintelligent people believe in religion" and I have to say that that is soo not true...because the Hare Krisnas on this board are some of the most amazing people who have every bared their souls to those who where willing to listen....

*Peace and Love*
Nicole

[sleeping jiva]

That's amazing you chant Hare Krishna! Go on! :):)

[YogaLady]

SvgGrdnBeauty, what a lovely post you have written! I haven't much time now and will be back later, but wanted to tell you what a sweet person you are! :)

YL

[BlackBillBlake]

BLackBill Blake: Yes, you improve yourself by learning. But there's always a question of the driving force for your learning. Because you might also want to improve yourself, to be adored for your intelligence & knowledge by others. Your senses are the most powerful in you and if you have no control over your senses, they will swallow your inteligence too. How can you know? Me, personally I was and I am against dogma in any form and that led me to Hare Krishna philosophy. You need to be aware that dogma -it is not here as a type of path. It's always made by people, who want to gain either money or fame( what is basicly sense gratification). If your "dogma" is not to be controlled by material greed, it can't be a dogma, because it is a serious war against the things from which dogma originates.

Yoga Lady said it very clearly, nicely and well, she stole it from my head :). The thing is you don't believe that Prabhupada could be a pure devotee and that's why you can't accept this philosophy as a gift from God -Krishna. It's not vice versa. That's the whole problem. You say to yourself -No that's not possible, he cannot be perfect. there must be something wrong with it. But that's attachment to material body. Little kid is happier, because he/she will accept everything without exploring it deeper. As Yoga Lady said this is a result of experience with cheaters, exploitation, well everything what took your naivite & innocence. But with that we lost something. We lost peace in mind. We are always worried, in paranoya. Why is that? We think that this material body -that's us, but that's not true. We shouldn't worry about our material body, but concentrate on spiritual side of our lives. You can see that, when your mind is in peace, everything around you seems peaceful too.
If you attain this liberation that you're not identified with your body anymore, you have no problems with accepting anything, or even believing in everything, because you're not anything from that -those are all processes of your body. You find yourself in a position of an actor and you as though play yourself -that's how you function, when you have control over your senses.

Thank you all for your great contribution you've provided to the Hare Krishna discussion.I wish you nice day wherever you are. Harribol!
I don't doubt that Prabhupada was an advanced devotee - even though he clearly made errors, such as not making clear what arrangements were to be put in place for initiation etc, after his departure. He was not infallible - no one is.
As for the driving force behind my 'learning' paltry as that may be, I certainly do not want to be adored. Neither do I wholly reject HK philosophy, I just think it is limited.
How can I know, you ask. But how can anyone know? Obviously through the inner faculty of knowing inherent in all human beings.
Also, I'm sorry, but I can't see how anyone can seriously claim that HK is not dogmatic.
And as for control of the senses, many other yogic and religious paths preach this, and have methods of attainment.
One of my chief criticisms of the many devotees I have met over the years is that they tend to belittle other paths, so sure are they that their's is superior. But when pressed, it often turns out that they know little of other paths, perhaps because they read Prabhupada's books to the exclusion of anything else. I have also heard it repeated often enough that HK is 'the only way in this age' - if that's not being dogmatic I'd like to know what is!
I find this game a bit of a bore - 'my paths better than yours '- 'X,Y or Z was the only true representative of God '.etc. There are many different types of Human being, and what suits one may be poison to another.
And also given that the bogus successor 'gurus' have all turned out to be no good,it is hard to see that orthodox HK as taught by Prabhupada is even a path that is accesible in the west, as Prabhupada clearly states that initiation must be taken from a 'bona-fide acharaya', and no such being is available.

[YogaLady]

I don't doubt that Prabhupada was an advanced devotee - even though he clearly made errors, such as not making clear what arrangements were to be put in place for initiation etc, after his departure. He was not infallible - no one is.

Hey there BlackBillBlake.

Here we go. Ready?

Ok, now, Prabhupada DID make very clear what the arrangements were to be for initiaitons after his departure. The "authorities" did things like hid them, destroyed some, twisted the meaning of others, tried to use scripture as more important than his personal instructions, and more. Its even out of character for him not to be clear on any type of arrangements he made for anything, so this confusion is not his doing, but theirs.

As for him making errors, who are we to judge? Do we really think we can identify an error or a pure devotee? Would people be so quick to say that if it were Jesus? "Oh Jesus, you made an error?" ha I doubt it. But yet many have trouble accepting Prabhupada was a pure devotee on that level too. Most cannot list qualifications of a pure devotee, yet with our imperfect senses, we judge. Take for example our eyes. Yes, they are wonderful, but limited. We require the aid of a microscope to see even the small material microbe, so how do we think with our eyes we will see God or recognize His representative? But Prabhupada could see God and did this regularly, so we dont know what is a mistaken and what is not. Thats why we study. God gave us brains to study. ha Thank goodness for that!

I don't want to get into all the personal things going on between you and Sleeping Jiva, so I will snip here.

I just think it is limited. (You were referring to "HK philosophy"

Well, I wont get too into that one, but will touch on it briefly by saying if you are truly reading Prabhuapda's books, and deeply, and all of them, you would not be feeling this way.

. But how can anyone know?

Good point. Only the pure deovtee can know. Therefore first one must learn how to recognize a pure devotee. But many dont want to do that cuz it means once they find him, they should surrender to him. Lets face it, who's so good at surrendering? I know I'm not. I try, but I'm not.

Also, I'm sorry, but I can't see how anyone can seriously claim that HK is not dogmatic.

In addition to my personal understanding and explanation of that - already made previously - I would add that there is this "religion" out there where many New Agers or others hold a strong "belief" that everyone must be noncommital to anything, otherwise that person is leaving something out, closed, and therefore part of a dogma. But isn't that also a dogman? If we do not belive as they believe, if we dont accept a little from every path but instead commit to our spiriutal path, according to their judgment, we are following a dogma. ha Kind of a double edged sword there. :)


One of my chief criticisms of the many devotees I have met over the years is that they tend to belittle

You may be surprised to read I am not so much in disagreement with you, or in part anyway. Many devotees, tho especially the newbies, get real fanatical. It even ticks me off! LOL I can get very into this cuz it irks me like crazy, but the bottom line is, too many others therefore, judge our teachings by the devotees. Please judge our religion by reading Prabhupada's books for yourself and on that alone.

other paths, so sure are they that their's is superior.

I don't doubt many show a lack of humility. But putting that aside, once one has attained the Absolute Truth, they have attained the Absolute Truth (in knowlege not necessarily in experience -- yet!). God is God, so once a preson has found that connection, be they HK's or Christians or Jewish, etc., they have achieved the highest. This I think is your concern tho, that these devotees you have personally met do not give credit to other paths. But here is where it boils down to a matter of "degree." Another topic which we can talk about, but right now am getting tired :) so the short answer is, there is only one God, He is unlimited, may go by many names be it Buddha, Allah (actualy just means "God"), Rama, Jesus, Vishnu, Krishna, Yahway (spelling), etc. Our REAL teachings from Prabhupada's books you will see, do not argue with any of these and similar bona fide religions. Of course we say Krishna is highest but that is where the new deovtees don't know how to show respect for all other paths. Yet, everyone thinks their path is "superior." Do you not think yours isn't? Ha Of course you think it is. So to prove Krishna consciousness is superior is not my goal. I will explain to those interested, but I wont harass those uninterested and will respect their religion. Be nice to get that mutually for a change tho. (Wait - that was not a reflection on you.)

But when pressed, it often turns out that they know little of other paths,

This tells me they are new devotees who know not what they talk of, tho have good intent. ha Still, they shoud study before they speak.


perhaps because they read Prabhupada's books to the exclusion of anything else.

So the bottom line for you is to always return to how unforunate we are to read only the works of a pure devotee since you dont accept him as a pure devotee, therefore we are missing out? Actually, if you would read his books thoroughly, you will see most of what is in every other religion, is included in ours. This is explained in the Introduction of Prabhupadas Bhagavad-gita As It is. The very introduction. I suggest that be read before assuming we are so ignorant of anything else.


I have also heard it repeated often enough that HK is 'the only way in this age' - if that's not being dogmatic I'd like to know what is!

The quote is that in this age of kali, the only way back to God, and of course for us, to Krishna, is to chant His Holy names, chant His holy names, (I'm not saying this in a fantical ways, the Sanskrit says it three times), Chant His holy names. In this age of quarrel and hypocrisy there is no other way. -- Now, we dont care if someone chants "Jesus" "Buddha" or "Narayana" but to please chant or pray. Also, this is Sanskrit, we are not making up any dogmatic thing. It's from ancient Sanskrit text. How is ancient Sanskirt dogmatic? So you see, in the Vedas there are four ages, and each age is given a "prescribed" way for salvation. In previous yugas (ages) one was insturcted by these ancient scriptures to meditate (all the time, not 30 minutes) to achieve God consciousness. In another previous age one was instructed via ancient Sanskrit to preform yajna (sacrifice type cermonies). Anyway in this modern day and age, the prescribe method is to merely chant. It is the easiest so why are we complaining?! LOL

I find this game a bit of a bore - 'my paths better than yours '- 'X,Y or Z was the only true representative of God '.etc.

Ok, but isn't that what you're doing? <G>


And also given that the bogus successor 'gurus' have all turned out to be no good,it is hard to see that orthodox HK as taught by Prabhupada is even a path that is accesible in the west, as Prabhupada clearly states that initiation must be taken from a 'bona-fide acharaya', and no such being is available.

Yes, I agree this has happened. But please not to think we can't access Prabhuada anymore, that he is "dead." Prabupada said he lives forever in his books. If anyone wants to make contact with him, they merely need to read his books, and be sincere too. To follow the instructions he gave and thats all. But I must wonder at some point, is not this focus of what these new gurus etc have done to the movement not a way to minimize the movement and make it no longer worth doing? Why bother dedicating ourselves to it cuz it must be hopeless due to all thats going on? Some food for thought.

There appears to be many misunderstandings devotees may have told you (am 'not' referring to IRM) of our teachings. This is why I stress to read Prabhuapda's books for yourslef, and that they are very complex, not so simplistic as some of the misunderstandings I guess devotees have told you are our teachings, which have been presented here. Even devotees who live in temples have to read his books for years and years before they get the some 'real' understanding of how detailed this knowledge is, because its a lack of this study that causes them to say some fanatical things. I have heard a Sanskrit scholar commented that Prabhuapda's Bhagavad-Gita is more advanced understandings then his own knowledge of Sanskrit, and this gentleman was very expert! So IMHO, us Westerners need to read more thoroughly before criticizing.

I realize you wrote much of this to sleeping jiva and you two are ummm at battle? ha So your words and mine too, may have not been the best selected ones. I do apologize for that, and hope that you and sleeping jiva will continue your conversation but in a gentle manner.

YL

[YogaLady]

I'm not trying to rub anything in or be a know-it-all, God knows I am far from knowing much of anything. lol Just thought that maybe showing what our REAL teachings are may be helpful. Here's a bit of a conversation between Srila Prabhupada and Father Emmanuel.


Srila Prabhupada: What is the meaning of the word, “Christ?”

Father Emmanuel: Christ comes from the Greek word Christos, meaning "the anointed one."

Srila Prabhupada: Christos is the Greek version of the word Krishna.

Father Emmanuel: This is very interesting.

Srila Prabhupada: When an Indian person calls on Krishna, he often says, "Krsta". Krsta is a Sanskrit word meaning "attraction". So when we address God as "Christ", "Krsta", or "Krishna" we indicate the same all-attractive Supreme Personality of Godhead. When Jesus said, " Our Father who art in heaven hallowed be Thy name," the name of God was Krsta or Krishna. Do you agree?

Father Emmanuel: I think Jesus, as the son of God, has revealed to us the actual name of God: Christ. We can call God "Father", but if we want to address Him by His actual name, we have to say "Christ".

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. "Christ" is another way of saying Krsta and Krsta is another way of pronouncing Krishna, the name of God. Jesus said that one should glorify the name of God, but yesterday I heard one theologian say that God has no name -- that we can call Him only "Father". A son may call his father "Father", but the father also has a specific name. Similarly, God is the general name of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, whose specific name is Krishna. Therefore whether you call God "Christ", "Krsta", or "Krishna", ultimately you are addressing the same Supreme Personality of Godhead.

Father Emmanuel: Yes, if we speak of God's actual name, then we must say, "Christos". In our religion we have the Trinity: the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. We believe we can know the name of God only by revelation from the son of God. Jesus Christ revealed the name of the Father, and therefore we take the name "Christ" as the revealed name of God.

Srila Prabhupada: Actually, it doesn't matter -- Krishna or Christ -- the name is the same. The main point is to follow the injunctions of the Vedic scriptures that recommend chanting the name of God in this age. The easiest way is to chant the maha-mantra: Hare Krishna Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna Hare Hare/ Hare Rama Hare Rama, Rama Rama Hare Hare. Rama and Krishna are names of God and Hare is the energy of God. So when we chant the maha-mantra we address God along with His energy. This energy is of two kinds, the spiritual and the material. At present we are in the clutches of the material energy. Therefore we pray to Krishna that He may kindly deliver us from the service of the material energy and accept us into the service of the spiritual energy. This is our whole philosophy. Hare Krishna means, "O energy of God, O God (Krishna), please engage me in Your service." It is our nature to render service. Somehow or other we have come to the service of material things, but when this service is transformed into the service of the spiritual energy, then our life is perfect. To practice bhakti-yoga [loving service to God] means to become free from designations like Hindu, Muslim, Christian, this or that, and simply to serve God. We have created Christian, Hindu and Mohammedan religions, but when we come to a religion without designations, in which we don't think we are Hindus or Christians or Mohammedans, then we can speak of pure religion, or bhakti.


YL

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

I'm not trying to rub anything in or be a know-it-all, God knows I am far from knowing much of anything. lol Just thought that maybe showing what our REAL teachings are may be helpful. Here's a bit of a conversation between Srila Prabhupada and Father Emmanuel.


Srila Prabhupada: What is the meaning of the word, “Christ?”

Father Emmanuel: Christ comes from the Greek word Christos, meaning "the anointed one."

Srila Prabhupada: Christos is the Greek version of the word Krishna.

Father Emmanuel: This is very interesting.

Srila Prabhupada: When an Indian person calls on Krishna, he often says, "Krsta". Krsta is a Sanskrit word meaning "attraction". So when we address God as "Christ", "Krsta", or "Krishna" we indicate the same all-attractive Supreme Personality of Godhead. When Jesus said, " Our Father who art in heaven hallowed be Thy name," the name of God was Krsta or Krishna. Do you agree?

Father Emmanuel: I think Jesus, as the son of God, has revealed to us the actual name of God: Christ. We can call God "Father", but if we want to address Him by His actual name, we have to say "Christ".

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. "Christ" is another way of saying Krsta and Krsta is another way of pronouncing Krishna, the name of God. Jesus said that one should glorify the name of God, but yesterday I heard one theologian say that God has no name -- that we can call Him only "Father". A son may call his father "Father", but the father also has a specific name. Similarly, God is the general name of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, whose specific name is Krishna. Therefore whether you call God "Christ", "Krsta", or "Krishna", ultimately you are addressing the same Supreme Personality of Godhead.

Father Emmanuel: Yes, if we speak of God's actual name, then we must say, "Christos". In our religion we have the Trinity: the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. We believe we can know the name of God only by revelation from the son of God. Jesus Christ revealed the name of the Father, and therefore we take the name "Christ" as the revealed name of God.

Srila Prabhupada: Actually, it doesn't matter -- Krishna or Christ -- the name is the same. The main point is to follow the injunctions of the Vedic scriptures that recommend chanting the name of God in this age. The easiest way is to chant the maha-mantra: Hare Krishna Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna Hare Hare/ Hare Rama Hare Rama, Rama Rama Hare Hare. Rama and Krishna are names of God and Hare is the energy of God. So when we chant the maha-mantra we address God along with His energy. This energy is of two kinds, the spiritual and the material. At present we are in the clutches of the material energy. Therefore we pray to Krishna that He may kindly deliver us from the service of the material energy and accept us into the service of the spiritual energy. This is our whole philosophy. Hare Krishna means, "O energy of God, O God (Krishna), please engage me in Your service." It is our nature to render service. Somehow or other we have come to the service of material things, but when this service is transformed into the service of the spiritual energy, then our life is perfect. To practice bhakti-yoga [loving service to God] means to become free from designations like Hindu, Muslim, Christian, this or that, and simply to serve God. We have created Christian, Hindu and Mohammedan religions, but when we come to a religion without designations, in which we don't think we are Hindus or Christians or Mohammedans, then we can speak of pure religion, or bhakti.


YL
Yoga Lady, thank you for your kind words. I really do mean all that I have said...2nd, oh my gosh...that is it ^ ! The post you have posted IS the point. Half of the reason that we have the problems that we do in the world today is because most people fail to realize that there is no difference in religion....I know that my church (I refer to it in this manner as the church of my family) does fail to realize this partly...not the teachings...but the diplomatic body and the peoples of the church. It was said in our scripture and I know that I meantioned it before that we were instructed to love God and to love each other...it never meantioned anything about the separation...Jesus said to love only your neighbors who are of your church or religion...it said to love all your neighbors...yet somehow, through out the years it has been twisted horribly wrong. We have wars over this and we shun others because of this...and why? Because they call the Lord by a different name? If there is one thing that I wish I could change in this world...it would be to get out that philosophy...that which you just posted...

I'm sure that I'm not even together with what you guys are talking about...but I just felt like commenting on the words of the different philosophers...I like 'em... :)

[YogaLady]

SvgGrdnBeauty --

What you say makes so much sense! The current world situation has not changed from old world problems of ages gone by. We think we are so much more civilized and advanced, but people are still creating wars over religions, etc. To get above all that and just realize we are all spirit souls, all part and parcel of God, now that would be wonderful.

This link is for you. :) http://www.webcom.com/ara/col/books/YM/cbh/#Top

YL

[sleeping jiva]

Thanks Yoga Lady for helping me out. It's the very same thoughts I got on my mind. Maybe a reference about Hare Krishna's being dogmatic is related to the surrendering to God. I do believe that when you have a relation directly with Him, with God -it goes automatically, you don't need to believe in something, because you actually experiencing it. But since you have not a relation with God, you need to believe that you're gonna develop one. We all need to believe -you believe that your mum&dad are your parents, eventhough you don't remember your birth (well, that would prove only your mum:) The scriptures and spiritual master is here for you to awaken it in you, but you still have to do the work yourself. That's why there can't be any dogma. In dogma everything is told to you -it is an opposite of freedom. Our materialistic customs lead us into thinking that we need something in order to get wiser, more tolerant, to be a better person. We are trying to find a path, but the thing is you''re already there. You can be self-satisfied -you can achieve such a state of mind. I remember reading in Prabhupada's books that everyone will attain liberation once. It's like a lie -it never lasts. The true things are still here, but the lie will be given out one day. It's not possible for lie to be taken as truth for eternity. Our understanding will come, either you go that way or the other, because the origin of all things is GOd. That's why Hare Krishna are respecting other religions, we are aware that everybody is partly Supersoul (Krishna's part).

When we say "this is the only way" it means your way is the only&specific one for you. We believe that everybody is an individuality, everyone has a different karma. It's just not that easy to find the natural ÿou, to find the point when you don't lie to yourself and pretending what you are not. The point where you partly are connected to all living beings in the universe and yet feel your unique essence. This philosophy, I dare to say is a helper to find that original position. We should firstly be aware that we are not only these material bodies. All kinds of enjoyments make us think that we are. In that sense, yes it is a dogma to these energies, which become a part of us. And they also argue and reason instead of us. They are afriad of this "dogma". We Hare Krishna's want to stop that part of "our" opinion.

If you had been born as blind on a desert island and there would be no person to tell you, you'd think that to see isn't possible -you'd think this is natural-not to see. then one day you'd bump into a person, who would see perfectly. He would tell you :No this is natural -to see. But you'd say: No, that is not true, you are wrong, we cannot see. The guy would say: I can experience it! Therefore it exists. But you'd say: "Don't make my opinion less worthy! In fact you have a dogma as a belief!" Yes, it would be a dogma from his point of view, but the guy, who sees would laugh. That's why you can never really believe your senses.

It's also to see yourself as a suffering being. It's not a solution to pretend that you're happy. Better admit your suffering and thusly get rid of it. Well, I know nothing about anything, but it seems to me logical that the only way how to control your senses is to do a switch and instead of satisfing yourself, trying to satisfy God. Because if you try to control your senses just to make yourself a more elevated person, there's another obstacle for you to overcome: pride. This is natural way how to control your senses, you shouldn't get more spiritual for you, but for God. There's no need for controled senses if you're gonna stay in this world of misery.

[BlackBillBlake]

Sorry folks but I don't buy this at all. The points made are too numerous to go through them all, but clearly we will have to agree to differ over the definition of the word 'dogma'.

It's not that I think one should believe in nothing, as you seem to suggest, I have made clear my position as one not opposed to Krishna. I repeat again that HK is only one version, even of vaishnavism, A fact that many devotees seem unaware of.

If one accepts Prabhupada as a divine being, one sent from God, still there are many others who make such a claim, or have it made on their behalf by others. Therefore if there is some disparity between the teachings of such beings, it is hard to say who is correct.

Sri Ramakrishna, Swami Vivekananda, Sri Aurobindo, Maharaji, Paramansa Yogananda, Ramana Maharishi are some examples of other Hindu teachers. And in other traditions there are many more.

Where the fake Gurus are concerned, Prabhupada must have been wrong to choose such a paltry bunch as sucessors, and he should have made it clear from day one what the arrangements would be after his death. As a divine being . he should have had this degree of judgemant of character, and realized the mess that would ensue when he was not around to personally supervise things.

I can't see much point in my posting this, as it's hardly the case that Devotees are open to argument or even discussion anyway - seems all they want is others to agree fully with every word uttered by their master and have lost nearly all capacity of independent action or thought.

Similar to the Catholic dogmatists of the past, and look where that led!

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

SvgGrdnBeauty --

What you say makes so much sense! The current world situation has not changed from old world problems of ages gone by. We think we are so much more civilized and advanced, but people are still creating wars over religions, etc. To get above all that and just realize we are all spirit souls, all part and parcel of God, now that would be wonderful.

This link is for you. :) http://www.webcom.com/ara/col/books/YM/cbh/#Top

YL
Thank you very much for the site. I will be sure to read it tomorrow...I have to get some sleep tonight. It is ironic that it has interview with George Harrison because I was reading his book I Me Mine and he was talk about one of the songs that was inspired by a trip to a village in India ( I don't remember the details...) and then he went on about it was where Sri Krishna lived and danced with the gopis and it brought about talking about how Krishna had lived to take on the burden of bad karma while Christ had lived to take on the sins of his people and both were the Lord and both saved their people...hmm...I figure I should share that when I read it...I guess I could add that to me theory, eh? Coincidence...I think not...:)

[YogaLady]

Sorry folks but I don't buy this at all. The points made are too numerous to go through them all, but clearly we will have to agree to differ over the definition of the word 'dogma'.

Well, yes, as you are determined your dogma is the only dogma that isn't a dogma. lol My bad.

It's not that I think one should believe in nothing, as you seem to suggest,
I never suggested that.

I have made clear my position as one not opposed to Krishna. I repeat again that HK is only one version,

yawn....... I must admit, I get tired of hearing this complaint from those who don't really know what we believe but think they do. Matter of fact, that accusation is actually contradictory to our philosophy. Be nice if someday, someone took the humble position for a change and ASKED us what we believe. Or, God forbid, admit they may have misunderstood the proper, transcendental writings of a pure devotee so please could we explain, "What does Prabhuapda mean when he says "yada yada?" I'm tellin ya, if I hadn't moved into an ashrama, there'd still be so much I wouldn't understand of this knowledge which it took sages so much to aquire. And surely I have far to go, but at least I asked instead of speculated, then sticking to such speculations as 'right' when they weren't.

even of vaishnavism, A fact that many devotees seem unaware of.

Actually, that we DON'T believe this way is a fact that seems some Vedic followers outside our movement are unaware of. These are NOT our teachings, and there ARE other Vaisnavas on earth. Prabhupada says this in many places - his books, his Morning Walk conversations/tapes, class lecturs/tapes, etc.

If one accepts Prabhupada as a divine being, one sent from God, still there are many others

Again, our teachings agree with this.

who make such a claim,

Therefore, how will you know who is real and who is not? The Vedas give specific qualifications how to recognize. A person must first know these before we can have any idea of who is or who isn't. First, learn the specified Vedic qualifications of a pure devotee teacher before you are quick to judge. Lets see that list. :) Otherwise, its just talk.

or have it made on their behalf by others. Therefore if there is some disparity between the teachings of such beings, it is hard to say who is correct.

Exactly. Therefore, only one who has studied the Vedas can know how to recognize one, what to look for, etc. First you must study.

Sri Ramakrishna, Swami Vivekananda, Sri Aurobindo, Maharaji, Paramansa Yogananda, Ramana Maharishi are some examples of other Hindu teachers.

1. We don't follow Hindu anything.
2. We accept there are other pure devotee guru's on the planet but we do not accept impersonalists or mayavadis as bona fide.

And in other traditions there are many more.

Again, we never said there aren't. Prabhuapda himself has said both Jesus and Mohammad were pure devotees, among others. It appears you dont know as much about us as you may think you do, and are therefore accusing us of things we do not even believe in.


Where the fake Gurus are concerned, Prabhupada must have been wrong
You really get off on calling him "wrong" and I guess that makes you feel powerful and spiriutally better, but it is an offense to call any pure devotee from any spiriutal path "wrong." You tell us not to do this to others, which by the way we DON'T, but you keep doing it to us.

to choose such a paltry bunch as sucessors,

He never chose them as successors. You are getting that IRM newsletter, but it appears you are not understanding what you are reading. You're just using it to fire up your persoanl vantage point.

and he should have made it clear from day one

You're repeating yourself from your last post. I all ready covered this. He DID! That others destroyed those instructions and documents are not his fault. Freewill is always there.

what the arrangements would be after his death. As a divine being . he should have had this degree of judgemant of character, and realized the mess that would ensue when he was not around to personally supervise things.

Ahhhhhh its so much easier to blame Prabhupda now, isn't it. ..... Again, he did personally, very personally, take care of his responsibilities over these things. He covered it all, and others destroyed as much as they could. That does not mean we did not uncover things, and slowly they will be put back to rights. But you seem to enjoy really that this happened as a way to empower your personal point of view as the only point of view. Yet, you do not live in the temples, near the temples, do not hang regularly with serious devotees who live outside temples, and since I am one, I know more of what has gone on, and is going on, on the inside of the Hare Krishna Movement, then you do.

I can't see much point in my posting this,
Here we're in agreement, as you appear to me as one of those people whose ego or low self esteem can't handle being wrong as just a mistake, and appologize or bow out nicely. Gotta keep it going until you win and we convert to your religion, whatever that may be is irrelevant, just your 'noncommital' way or the highway.

as it's hardly the case that Devotees are open to argument
Actually, I am beginning to wonder if, when you see those deovtees on the street or wherever you see them, and talk to them, the ones you say give you a hard time, I wonder if really you give them a hard time and talk to them for the 'purpose' of argumentation. It appears you love to fault find.

or even discussion anyway - seems all they want is others to agree fully with every word uttered by their master

Devotees are always open to discussion, I know from experience, including the experiences I had 'before' I was one. However if you can't defeat them and are a poor looser, what can be done? If your goal is to convert them, that's just foolishness on your part, not theirs. I dont go to the Catholic church and tell the priest or nuns the faults "I" find with their religion and they should convert to mine.

Now, if you want to speak of 'master' --- who lets someone blaspheme their master? Any religion? Show me. But if you want to disagree, why go after the devotees? Why not just go your way and let them go theirs? Devotees aren't exactly knocking at your door. So you must do this for a reason.

and have lost nearly all capacity of independent action or thought.
You mean we refuse to think as you do. Won't 'convert' to your way of thinking. :)

Similar to the Catholic dogmatists of the past, and look where that led!

I am sorry you have had trouble with the Catholics, but we are not them, and they are not us. Our lineage, and way of doing things, is traceable back to time immemorial, to Krishna Himself. Its not some new thing. We are part of the Gaudiya Brahma Sampradiya which is found written in Sanskrit, listed in Vedic literatures. Its one of the 4 ancient Sampradiya's, ours starting with Brahma himself. (Or more specifically, Lord Krishna giving this knowledge to the demi-god Brahma.) Its gone on all that time, seems to be doing better than the Catholic lineage. :)

I want to wish you well still, tho you're probably too mad now to believe it. And too deaf. All I said probably went in one ear and out the other, and right into defensive mode of 'how to defeat it.' But when people do this in one area of life, they tend to do it in all. So, hows your love life going? LOL Uh oh, now I'm in for it. (Fact is, if ya don't own that inner anger, you're gonna find it has less to do with religion then you want to think.)

YL

[YogaLady]

Thank you very much for the site. I will be sure to read it tomorrow...I have to get some sleep tonight. It is ironic that it has interview with George Harrison because I was reading his book I Me Mine and he was talk about one of the songs that was inspired by a trip to a village in India ( I don't remember the details...) and then he went on about it was where Sri Krishna lived and danced with the gopis and it brought about talking about how Krishna had lived to take on the burden of bad karma while Christ had lived to take on the sins of his people and both were the Lord and both saved their people...hmm...I figure I should share that when I read it...I guess I could add that to me theory, eh? Coincidence...I think not...:)

SvgGrdnBeauty,

You are correct in your theory. Jesus was the guru or spiriutal master for all who took (and still take) shelter of him, therefore one who is a guru accepts on their head the sins, or in Vedic terminology, the karma, of their disciple.

"I, Me, Mine" is a great book! Its been a while since I read it, but I remember the positive feelings it gave me.

That place in India, I think you are referring to Vrindavana. Its a very special, and very Holy, place.

Yes, I knew that link had an interview in it with George Harrison. Thats why I posted it there and said it's for you. :) But also, I think there is something in there about John Lennon and Yoko Ono too. Read it when you have the time. Get your rest. <s>

YL

[sleeping jiva]

Oh Thanks Yoga Lady for the fighting I wasn't capable of doing anymore. Yet I hope that BlackBillBlake will come again, I don't mind his opinions. Please don't feel like unwanted lol. I do appreciate your attempts to challenge us.

The thing is Hare Krishna's cannot be Christian-like, a new trend to lure the Christians from West (as someone put it a while ago in this thread), because Prabhupada was mainly great for his non-compromising. Maybe that's why you find his teachings dogmatic. He was non-compromising in terms of changing the message of Lord Krishna. When you look into his books, you see the original text in sanskrit, word-by-word translation to English, translation itself and then the purport. This was done because many cheaters changed Krishna's words in order to get fame and wealth. You must admit that organized religion is a really good buisness these days. Why? Because people are never gonna be attracted to restrictions. Their senses are so powerful that they feel repulsed by them. If you wanna attract them, just soothe their soul and they're gonna be grateful. But this is merely a prostitution. And in fact that is a dogma -because they're gonna tell you -do this and you'll be forgiven to. The change is performed without you being involved. That is not Hare Krishna.If you want to preserve the original texts, you can't change them for your own benefits, moreover you need to live very strictly and according to instructions of the scriptures themselves, because as I said your senses are too powerful. In this case, yes Prabhupada was dogmatic.
Just look at the politicians, all they do is creating still new and new laws. But they're not needed! Law is something stable. They're bending the laws in order to have more enjoyment. That's how it works in our society.
peace to you BBB :)

[BlackBillBlake]

I can't see any point in my saying anymore here. I don't accept Prabhupada as the only Vedic authority, I'd even go so far as to say that the whole thing represents a gross distortion of the message of the unanishads and Vedas.

But my real gripe is the unfortunate state of several persons I know who are really victims of the bogus guru thing, which, whatever you say, one so supposedly advanced as Prabhupada should have forseen.

Anyway - thats my last word on this.

[sleeping jiva]

Ok, but you must admit that you didn't bring any real arguments for saying that except that Prabhupada was wrong and Hare Krishnas are dogmatic. Yoga Lady tried to explain everything in details. Now I must disagree, because you're the one, who doesn't want to discuss. :):)

anyway, I wish you good, thanks for your inputs, I appreciate it.

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

Oh Thanks Yoga Lady for the fighting I wasn't capable of doing anymore. Yet I hope that BlackBillBlake will come again, I don't mind his opinions. Please don't feel like unwanted lol. I do appreciate your attempts to challenge us.

The thing is Hare Krishna's cannot be Christian-like, a new trend to lure the Christians from West (as someone put it a while ago in this thread), because Prabhupada was mainly great for his non-compromising. Maybe that's why you find his teachings dogmatic. He was non-compromising in terms of changing the message of Lord Krishna. When you look into his books, you see the original text in sanskrit, word-by-word translation to English, translation itself and then the purport. This was done because many cheaters changed Krishna's words in order to get fame and wealth. You must admit that organized religion is a really good buisness these days. Why? Because people are never gonna be attracted to restrictions. Their senses are so powerful that they feel repulsed by them. If you wanna attract them, just soothe their soul and they're gonna be grateful. But this is merely a prostitution. And in fact that is a dogma -because they're gonna tell you -do this and you'll be forgiven to. The change is performed without you being involved. That is not Hare Krishna.If you want to preserve the original texts, you can't change them for your own benefits, moreover you need to live very strictly and according to instructions of the scriptures themselves, because as I said your senses are too powerful. In this case, yes Prabhupada was dogmatic.
Just look at the politicians, all they do is creating still new and new laws. But they're not needed! Law is something stable. They're bending the laws in order to have more enjoyment. That's how it works in our society.
peace to you BBB :)
Indeed you are correct. It is quite unfortunete that that is the way that it is...:(

[YogaLady]

I can't see any point in my saying anymore here. I don't accept Prabhupada as the only Vedic authority,
For the 100th time, we never said he is the only one.

I'd even go so far as to say that the whole thing represents a gross distortion of the message of the unanishads and Vedas.

According to YOUR understanding. Am wondering what your qualifications are to know more about the Upanishads and Vedic literatures that surpases the pure devotees on this planet. (Pointing out I used "plural" when I said pure deovtees.) How's your Sanskrit? Because if you can't read sanskrit yourself, you are reading someone's explanation of the Vedas, and they best be pure souls in order to pass it on as it is.


But my real gripe is the unfortunate state of several persons I know who are really victims of the bogus guru thing, which, whatever you say, one so supposedly advanced as Prabhupada should have forseen.

You're putting him in the category of God, not guru. God is all knowing, all forseeing, but not the spiriutal master. Otherwise Jesus would have had a lot more to say! :) The spiriutal master can know more, but He really only knows as much as God wants him to know. Hey, guess its time to blame God now too. (Uh oh, there goes my sarcasm. bad me, bad me! <G>)

I have, and could post right here, document after document where Prabhupada DID take care of all that, and you still would not accept, because its easier to blame him. I have had to ask myself why some devotees I know fell for the new gurus, and while the new gurus are far from innocent, how come not all devotees fell for them? Many of us have discussed this amongst ourselves - how we did not go for it and others did? Certainly I am sorry for your friends suffering, simultaneously they must take some responsibility in the matter. Some people rather be told what to do then think for themselves. Its not that each person who gets into difficulty with "guru's" or anything really, should receive no consequences for what happened to them, for the choices they made to get themselves in the fix they are in. But again, its so much easier to be angry at Prabhupada.

I wish you well BBB. Take care of yourself, tho I'm sure you will.

YL

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

YogaLady...I read some of that website that you sent me the other day...its very uplifting...thank you...I esp. like this:

Mukunda: Some people say that if everyone on the planet chanted Hare Krsna, they wouldn't be able to keep their minds on what they were doing. In other words, if everyone started chanting, some people ask if the whole world wouldn't just grind to a halt. They wonder if people would stop working in factories, for example.

George: No. Chanting doesn't stop you from being creative or productive. It actually helps you concentrate. I think this would make a great sketch for television: imagine all the workers on the Ford assembly line in Detroit, all of them chanting Hare Krsna Hare Krsna while bolting on the wheels. Now that would be wonderful. It might help out the auto industry, and probably there would be more decent cars too.

I think partly because I have a story similar...2 weeks ago I took the SATs and I was trying to concentrate before hand and I started to sing "My Sweet Lord" and then it somehow turned into the Hare Krishna Maha Mantra...and I did this for about an hour or so (there was some problems...so we started late) and I have to say that when I took the test I was so much more relaxed and confident than the first time I took it in March...and the part that didn't count was the part I was unsure about ....so I hope that being more relaxed helps my score...

...there's just something about it though...it makes me happy :) Its not even my religion...just something that interests me..but the more I find, the happier I am...so maybe it is good for me....no one ever said we were sure on the road to enlightenment...

[YogaLady]

YogaLady...I read some of that website that you sent me the other day...its very uplifting...thank you...I esp. like this:

Mukunda: Some people say that if everyone on the planet chanted Hare Krsna, they wouldn't be able to keep their minds on what they were doing. In other words, if everyone started chanting, some people ask if the whole world wouldn't just grind to a halt. They wonder if people would stop working in factories, for example.

George: No. Chanting doesn't stop you from being creative or productive. It actually helps you concentrate. I think this would make a great sketch for television: imagine all the workers on the Ford assembly line in Detroit, all of them chanting Hare Krsna Hare Krsna while bolting on the wheels. Now that would be wonderful. It might help out the auto industry, and probably there would be more decent cars too.

I think partly because I have a story similar...2 weeks ago I took the SATs and I was trying to concentrate before hand and I started to sing "My Sweet Lord" and then it somehow turned into the Hare Krishna Maha Mantra...and I did this for about an hour or so (there was some problems...so we started late) and I have to say that when I took the test I was so much more relaxed and confident than the first time I took it in March...and the part that didn't count was the part I was unsure about ....so I hope that being more relaxed helps my score...

...there's just something about it though...it makes me happy :) Its not even my religion...just something that interests me..but the more I find, the happier I am...so maybe it is good for me....no one ever said we were sure on the road to enlightenment...

SvgGrdnBeauty, So much I want to say but its late and I'm tired! <S> So I'll sum it up as best as I can, cuz I still want to say it.

You are right-on about this. Chanting increases awareness, intelligence, and relaxation, not the other way around. Yup, for me, I'm not surprised you had the experience you did. Happy for ya :) but this is how it works. Its always great too, to hear yet another story of it working like that.

Before I rush off (eye lids fallling shut lol) one quick, similar story would be when George was considering whether or not to continue on with his music or just move in the temple. Something like that. Anyway Prabhupada told him he need not close down the business, but instead to just write songs about Krishna, and because he was doing devotional service by spreading this transcedental sound vibration of the Hare Krishna mantra, his business would soar. And it did! :)

Goonight .... for now.

YL

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

I am indeed glad that he did...most of my favourites of his songs are those that have to do with Krisna :) I hope your sleep is well...and I hope to talk to you when you return :) :)

*Peace and Love*
Nicole

[gdkumar]

Dear all,

Read all the posts of the last few days. It is another perfect example of peripherals becoming more important than the primary objective.

We see the churches and temples, the clergy people, the decorations, the conditions therein, good and bad of all these but we hardly take a good look at the deities for which all of the above come into the existence.

We love God who holds everything,good and bad,together. We never say God has also created these bad things, so, why should we love God? It is the game,the divine game. The game ending on finding the fact that it is He only who has become everything.

Does it matter whether Srila Prabhupad left clear instructions on who should take over after Him? If He did not, does it really make Him anything less?
The man with vast knowledge and having attained self-realization had really nothing to do with what is happening today. He had given us the message of unconditional love. That was His only purpose. It is only our problem that unfortunately some of us could not take it.
Does it make Lord Jesus anything less that Himself being the icon of unconditional love He could not convince some people even with His bodily
presence? Those unfortunate people crucified Him. He did not become less.We still worship Him as God.
Same thing holds good for Lord Krishna who was killed by an ordinary hunter.

Then why is this comparison and fault finding? Srila Prabhupad had gone to the USA at the age of 70 and died at the age of 75. In this five years He had fulfiled His Guru's(Sri Swaraswati Siddhanta) last wish of spreading the message of unconditional love for which Krishna stands as an icon just like Lord Jesus. To do this in 5 years for a pauper man at that old age needs a super natural power. Yes, we must understand and accept that Srila Prabhupad was an extra-ordinary super human being, a very great Vaishnav saint.

I remember His life story. His Guru once called Him and said, "I wont live long but today I want to tell you why you have come on this earth. You have come just to spread Lord Krishna's message of love to foreign countries. So, try to do it and this is my last wish." Being a poor man Srila Prabhupad did not know how but somehow He wanted to fulfil His Guru's last wish. He was already old,after retiring from bank-service He started a trading business with whatever little money He had.He wanted to make enough money so that He could fulfil His Guru's last wish. In the business everything was lost and He became a pauper. His Guru was still living. One day He went to Sri Swaraswati Siddhanta(His Guru) and told Him crying that He was unfortunate and could not fulfil Guru's last wish. He also said that all money was lost and it was not possible to reach foreign lands. Then Swaraswati Siddhanta maharaj told Him, "As long as you try nothing will happen. Shake off all your ego and surrender at Krishna's lotus feet. It is His job ,He shall take care of everything. You just be the instrument in His hands.Remember the sun may stop rising but my words will not be false, it will all come true. You are born only for this purpose."

Shortly after this His Guru had expired and after many years He went to the USA as a pauper and fulfiled His Guru's last wish. How He reached the USA is another beautiful story.

As regards wrong-doings may I know which religious organization is free of blemish? I am sure all will become quiet. So let us stop all sorts of profanity.
Let us truly open up our eyes and look up at our beloved God and forget everything else.

It has been too long. Sorry for taking your time.

With love...........Kumar.

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

You are truly right...btw I very much enjoyed this story. :)

[sleeping jiva]

SvGrdnBeauty: I have a similar story. When I was about to graduate from my high school I woke up ion the morning and I started chanting and stopped after my exams were done. My schoolmates were surprised to see me walking in the halls from one side to another chanting, but I just carried on, even though they mock me. (well, it was not very hard to endure they were just joking). But they stopped when I picked up a question I knew very well to answer and got the highest mark! They wanted the picture of Krishna I was holding in my hands! They were taking it into their hands and turned into crazies. I was laughing and and carried on with chanting, they didn't join me, cuz they thought it was in that picture. I just want to add that I didn't study at all while I was in school. I never did it, because my opinion is that you should learn everything while you're in school. I was listening more.

The point is I didn't do it in order to get a good mark. I was chanting every day on my way to school, but the day of graduation was too much pressure everywhere. Everybody was nervous and it's hard to keep a clear mind, when ev erybody'g oing nuts around you. So I decided to hide behind chanting. hehe. My schoolmates -you should've seen them, they changed their behaviour in few seconds from mockers to eager surrenders!

gdkumar: I welcome you :) it was a long time not to read your post, but your absence in this thread :) You said it all, my friend. God is the only thing we should care about. If you're not conscious of God, you think that the world is good and bad. And then you position yourself in the role of a judge (God), who decides what is good and bad. what more can I say? I'm happy you're back :):)

[Cloudminerva]

This has been a wonderful thread to read. I just wanted to say that I can really see the kinship and unity between us here and I to in recent times have come to understand the unity of religions. I grew up as a Southern Baptist.This year I studied Hinduism and Buddhism and I truely discovered Jesus and the true message and that all religions lead us to the same almight God. I respect, love , and revere Jesus, Krishna, Buddha, Mohammad, all the aspects of God :) I have learned to see the light within the faiths that all shine together! As was said earlier about love, I love you guys as well.

Ben.

Hallelujah! Hare Krishna! Om Mani Padme Hum! Shalom! Jah Love!

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

SvGrdnBeauty: I have a similar story. When I was about to graduate from my high school I woke up ion the morning and I started chanting and stopped after my exams were done. My schoolmates were surprised to see me walking in the halls from one side to another chanting, but I just carried on, even though they mock me. (well, it was not very hard to endure they were just joking). But they stopped when I picked up a question I knew very well to answer and got the highest mark! They wanted the picture of Krishna I was holding in my hands! They were taking it into their hands and turned into crazies. I was laughing and and carried on with chanting, they didn't join me, cuz they thought it was in that picture. I just want to add that I didn't study at all while I was in school. I never did it, because my opinion is that you should learn everything while you're in school. I was listening more.

The point is I didn't do it in order to get a good mark. I was chanting every day on my way to school, but the day of graduation was too much pressure everywhere. Everybody was nervous and it's hard to keep a clear mind, when ev erybody'g oing nuts around you. So I decided to hide behind chanting. hehe. My schoolmates -you should've seen them, they changed their behaviour in few seconds from mockers to eager surrenders!
That's what happened with me...last time I was so afraid and nervous(because I have a lot of pressure from all sides around me...)...that I blanked...and this time around I was sitting there and trying to calm down and I was trying to think of something that made me happy and then it turned out that I was softly singing the Hare Krishna chant...no one really noticed with me and I didn't know anyone (I was testing at another school) so I don't think anyone cared....
...I do like your story...its pretty funny how your friends all jumped for your picture of Krishna...hehe...hey whatever gets their attention...hehe...to bad they didn't start chanting...how cool would that have been, eh?

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

This has been a wonderful thread to read. I just wanted to say that I can really see the kinship and unity between us here and I to in recent times have come to understand the unity of religions. I grew up as a Southern Baptist.This year I studied Hinduism and Buddhism and I truely discovered Jesus and the true message and that all religions lead us to the same almight God. I respect, love , and revere Jesus, Krishna, Buddha, Mohammad, all the aspects of God :) I have learned to see the light within the faiths that all shine together! As was said earlier about love, I love you guys as well.

Ben.

Hallelujah! Hare Krishna! Om Mani Padme Hum! Shalom! Jah Love!
I agree. I myself have grown up Roman Catholic and this thread has really helped me learn more and the wonderful people here have indeed helped me to rediscover God in a new light as well as myself. Hare Krisna! Praise be all his names and welcome Ben! I hope you do stick around...

[sleeping jiva]

Yeah, welcome Ben! Drop by anytime you want. :):)

haribol!

[YogaLady]

I see we have some new faces on this thread. WELCOME!!! :)

SvgGrdnBeauty - Thank you. And yeah, I got my 'beauty' rest. lol Or rather, that which keeps me going. Hey, scroll down and check out what I am gonna put there.

I am indeed glad that he did...most of my favourites of his songs are those that have to do with Krisna :) I hope your sleep is well...and I hope to talk to you when you return :) :)

*Peace and Love*
Nicole

Such a nice thing you said, I had to look up this story and post it here --

A STORY ABOUT GEORGE AND SRILA PRABHUPADA

by Nanda Kumar Das

Hare Krishna Prabhus,

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupad. All glories to Bhakta George Harrison, who is very dear to His Divine Grace.

I would like to share a story about their connection on one occasion in London. I was traveling with Srila Prabhupad, as well as Syamasundar Das and Pradyumna Das, in 1972 (I have a poor memory for dates. I believe this was the year). Syamasundar was instrumental in connecting George with Srila Prabhupad and our movement and had a lot of association with him. They were close friends.

I was in the secretary's office, which was more like a large closet off of Prabhupad's quarters, typing letters, when a head popped in the door, and in a very British accent, someone said, "Hello, is Syamasundar here?"

I looked over and said that he was out and would be back later. I went back to my typing and then did a double take, as it was George. I got up and went over to him and said that I would tell Prabhupad that he was here.

He said, very humbly, "No, no, I don't want to bother him."

I assured him that it would not be a bother, and I went into Prabhupad's room to tell him that he was there. Prabhupad immediately said, "Oh! Have him come in."

I went back out and told George that he wanted to see him. He was removing his socks and looked over at me and said, "I get so nervous when I am around His Divine Grace."

I told him that I felt the same way. He had just shaved his beard and cut his hair back to a Beatle's style, and he said, "I just got my hair cut to see Prabhupad." He was so humble and unassuming. It was like being around a great devotee. It was being around a great devotee.

He went into the room and closed the door. I could not stay outside, I had to go in and see the exchange. I opened the door, and George was doing full dandavats and offering both prayers to Prabhupad, with perfect pronunciation. Prabhupad had an ear-to-ear smile. George got up and sat back by the door.

Prabhupad said "Come in, come in" and George edged forward towards Prabhupad's desk, very shy and respectful. Prabhupad said "No, here, here" and patted the asana he was sitting on. George came around his desk to the edge of his asana, and Prabhupad reached out and pulled him into his chest, hugging him, laughing, messing up his hair, and saying, "It is so good to see you. How is Patty?"

They had a wonderful conversation, where at one point George asked him if he should move into the temple and shave his head. I believe he would have if Prabhupad had said yes. But Prabhupad said emphatically "No! You have a great gift for the world in your music. Just continue your music and Krishna will be greatly pleased and He will bless you." Then he said "I will give you some ideas for your songs" and he got out Srila Bhaktivinode's Songbook and went over a number of the songs, reciting the translations for George.

It was soon after this that he wrote "My Sweet Lord." George came daily for a week, along with Ravi Shankar, to have Prabhupad's darsan in the afternoon. Ravi Shankar is a Bengali, so he and Prabhupad talked and laughed together as Bengalis.

Of course, Srila Prabhupad's remnants were always a transcendental treasure for all the devotees, and I was blessed to be able to distribute them after His meals. During this week, when I would take the plates away, many of the temple matajis would crowd around, asking "Could I have some of George's remnants, please?"

I have remembered this story so many times over the years, with joy and great respect for Bhakta George. He is truly a humble devotee and a great man. I am currently living on Maui, where George had a home, and the stories from the local people are all good. He spread goodness wherever he went. I am greatly honored to have met him on that occasion, and I send him my love. There is no doubt in my mind about where he is now. I hope to see him again.

Offered to the Vaishnavas with love and respect.

Your servant,
Nanda Kumar Das


YL

[gdkumar]

Dear YogaLady,

That is wonderful ! Story of devotion, simplicity and humility.
Thank you. Please give more such unique pieces to us, the dry listless souls.
Let us know what Bhaktiras(Nectar of devotion) is.

Thanks again.

With love........Kumar.

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

Indeed I agree YogaLady...as usual...I very much enjoy your stories :) :)

[YogaLady]

Hey thanks everyone. Yah, its true I've collected some cool stuff. Hows this?

Srila Prabhupada letter to Symasundara, L.A., CA, July 15, 1969 --- "I am so glad that Mr. Harrison is composing songs like "Lord which we so long ignored". He is very thoughtful. When we actually meet, I shall be able to give him thoughts about separation from Krishna, and they will be able to compose very attractive songs for public receptions. The public is in need of such songs, and if they are administered through nice agents like the Beatles, it will surely be a great success. In your previous letter you advised me that Mr. Harrison has desired to have me live in the house which they are counting to give us because he has many questions to ask me. I am very much pleased to meet persons who put sincere questions in the matter of Krishna Consciousness. So it will be a great event if the Beatles try to understand this science of Krishna Consciousness with intelligent questions and try to understand it seriously."

Srila Prabhupada letter to Jim Doody, L.A., Ca., 2/8/69
"Please convey my blessings to the others there. I was so glad to talk with them the other day on the telephone. I enjoyed hearing their voices, and I was happy that they were also very much pleased to hear me. I will be glad to hear if Mr. George Harrison attended the love feast ceremony yesterday as I was informed he would. Please continue to try and understand the essence of this Krishna Consciousness movement, and try to convince others also of its importance."

CONVERSATION ---

David Lawrence: I feel that students need to be able to see that somebody who is God conscious can really, really enjoy life.

Prabhupada: Oh yes. Certainly. That is life. This is not life. Harav abhaktasya kuto mahad-gunah. Life means with high qualities. So one who is not God conscious, they cannot have any good qualities. It is not possible. Harav abhaktasya kuto mahad-gunah. He's simply hovering on the mental plane. Asati dhavato bahih. And he has to come to these non-permanent things, material things. Asati. Asati ma sad gama. The Vedic injunction is, "Don't stick to this asat. Try to come to the sat, eternal." Tamasi ma jyotir gama. These are the... "Don't remain in the darkness. Come to the light."

David Lawrence: That was one track on George's record which really, really got through to our boys, I think. "Light, is it? Light of the World."

Syamasundara: "Light, there is, Light of the World." (?)

David Lawrence: Really...

Prabhupada: So his record has become very successful.

Syamasundara: Number one everywhere. In America.

Prabhupada: Now, even they are appreciating.

David Lawrence: Very successful even with one boy, you see. That's success, isn't it?

Prabhupada: Yes, yes.

Syamasundara: He likes to hear it.

Prabhupada: "I am in material world."

Syamasundara: We get letters from all over the world addressed to George Harrison care of Radha-Krsna Temple London. (laughter) From Poland, from behind the Iron Curtain even. Russia, China, every place, they send.

Prabhupada: And he has mentioned my Bhagavad-gita in my name also.

David Lawrence: Yes.

Prabhupada: In the in...? What is that?

Syamasundara: In the insert, in the record insert.

David Lawrence: Yes. In fact, when they picked up my copy of the Bhagavad-gita As It Is, which was on my desk, two or three boys immediately said, "Ah, that's on the George Harrison L.P."

Prabhupada: He has very intelligently connected.

David Lawrence: Yes, yes. It was there.

Prabhupada: This Krsna consciousness movement with his...

Syamasundara: He doesn't want to do it overtly because they will think he is crazy. So he's doing gradually.

David Lawrence: Very gradually.

Syamasundara: Yes.

Prabhupada: And what is that song, "I am not the same..."?

Syamasundara: Something. "I'm not the same..."

Prabhupada: "I have changed."

David Lawrence: Oh yes. "I've changed."

Syamasundara: "Somehow I'm..."

David Lawrence: "Somehow I've changed."

Syamasundara: Yes. "My friends all criticize me for the change, but I don't care."

Prabhupada: But he's not loser. He's gainer. (laughter) He's gainer. That he can understand. And he's determined. He says, "Even if I am loser, I don't mind."

David Lawrence: If commercial success went, he wouldn't worry.

Prabhupada: Yes.

David Lawrence: Well, I mean these sort of riches is just unfathomable, aren't they?

Prabhupada: Hm. (Break) (end)"

Room Conversation, Srila Prabhupada and David Lawrence in July 1973


:) :)
YL

[gdkumar]

Dear YogaLady,

Thanks again for another beautiful piece of conversation.

I am sure we are also changing,slowly but surely. Are we losers ? Surely not. We are all gainers and even if the impression of losing is given we do not mind.

That is the beauty of God and godly matters. More we think and practise the advised means and ways more we advance. It does not matter whether, at the end of the quest in this life time, we become 100% successful or not. We definitely make advancement and become all better and beautiful persons.

His Divine Grace,A.C.(Abhaya Charan) Bhaktivedanta Prabhupad's life tells us about the truth of the above facts. His life was a perfect example of devotion,knowledge, tolerance, patience,humility and surrender.

His personal life was a troubled one, he had suffered negligence,cheating and had no money. Only faith in His Guru's words, total devotion and surrender gradually proved the old saying that He does everything and we are just instruments in His hands.

Myself being a Bengali from Calcutta I know just a little about Him. I remember how He had spent His days in Calcutta(Now Kolkata) after His Guru's death. Despite lots of suffering and having no money He used to come to the Brigade Parade Ground daily early in the morning and chant/sing "Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare, Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare." He did not know what else to do to fulfil His Guru's wish. Morning time lots of people, including the rich and elite class, used to come for jogging and morning walk. They used to wonder looking at His towering personality but did not know what His aim was.

They say that He had magnetic power of attracting people meaning that once anybody talked to Him to find out what He was doing there everyday, got glued to Him. He was vastly learned and had already attained self-realization. Slowly but surely the Divine Grace started working for Him, things started happening like magic.

Out of all those who used to come and sit with Him, there was one gentleman who was stationed at the Calcutta office of Scindia Steam Navigation Co. Ltd (A very big and reputed shipping Company of Bombay at that time.)One day he came to know about His mission and was so highly impressed that he spoke to the Chairperson of Scindia Steam Navigation, Mrs.Sumati Morarji . Mrs Morarji, a highly religious lady, wanted to talk to Srila Prabhupad. She arranged for His journey to Bombay and stay over there. On the day of appointment when Srila Prabhupad met Mrs Morarji and spoke to her, grace,love and compassion of God showered not only on Him but on the whole mankind. She was flabbergasted and amazed after talking to Him. She made all arrangements for Him and on one auspicious day He started for the USA as a supernumerary on one of Scindia's vessels. Rest is history.

I am sure many of you knew this story but I just could not resist the temptation of telling it again just to say how God's compassion and love work for us. For everything there are tests for us in any walk of life, same way He also tests us. If we pass we get soaked and drowned in His love and compassion which we call blissful.

With lots of love............Kumar.

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

I am certainly glad you posted this story Kumar! It is my first time hearing and enjoying it. :)

And as you suggested (and I think its a wonderful idea)...a song for us all:

"Awaiting On You All"- George Harrison

You don't need no love in
You don't need no bed pan
You don't need a horoscope or a microscope
The see the mess that you're in
If you open up your heart
You will know what I mean
We've been polluted so long
Now here's a way for you to get clean

By chanting the names of the lord and you'll be free
The lord is awaiting on you all to awaken and see
Chanting the names of the lord and you'll be free
The lord is awaiting on you all to awaken and see

You don't need no passport
And you don't need no visas
You don't need to designate or to emigrate
Before you can see Jesus
If you open up your heart
You'll see he's right there
Always was and will be
He'll relieve you of your cares

By chanting the names of the lord and you'll be free
The lord is awaiting on you all to awaken and see
Chanting the names of the lord and you'll be free
The lord is awaiting on you all to awaken and see

You don't need no church house
And you don't need no Temple
You don't need no rosary beads or them books to read
To see that you have fallen
If you open up your heart
You will know what I mean
We've been kept down so long
Someone's thinking that we're all green

And while the Pope owns 51% of General Motors
And the stock exchange is the only thing he's qualified to quote us
The lord is awaiting on you all to awaken and see
By chanting the names of the lord and you'll be free
-------------

And one extra song...that I just heard for the first time and I like :)

It Is "He" (Jai Sri Krishna) - George Harrison
Jai krishna jai krishna krishna
Jai krishna jai sri krishna
Jai radhe jai radhe radhe
Jai radhe jai radhe radhe
Jai krishna jai krishna krishna
Jai krishna jai sri krishna
Jai radhe jai radhe radhe
Jai radhe jai radhe


He whose eyes have seen
What our lives have been
And who we really are
It is 'He'
Jai sri krishna

Jai krishna jai krishna krishna
Jai krishna jai sri krishna
Jai radhe jai radhe radhe
Jai radhe jai radhe radhe
Jai krishna jai krishna krishna
Jai krishna jai sri krishna
Jai radhe jai radhe radhe
Jai radhe jai radhe

He whose sweetness flows
To anyone of those
That cares to look His way
See His smile
Jai sri radhe

Jai krishna jai krishna krishna
Jai krishna jai sri krishna
Jai radhe jai radhe radhe
Jai radhe jai radhe radhe
Jai krishna jai krishna krishna
Jai krishna jai sri krishna
Jai radhe jai radhe radhe
Jai radhe jai radhe

He who is complete
Three worlds at His feet
Cause of every star
It is 'He'
Jai sri krishna

Jai krishna jai krishna krishna
Jai krishna jai sri krishna
Jai radhe jai radhe radhe
Jai radhe jai radhe radhe
Jai krishna jai krishna krishna
Jai krishna jai sri krishna
Jai radhe jai radhe radhe
Jai radhe jai radhe
------------

I hope you enjoy them! :)

[ChiefCowpie]

an add on to you story Kumar...


on his journey from India on the Jaladuta, he suffered through two heart attacks

a testament to his courage and conviction that he continued in his quest to spread the gospel of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu

[gdkumar]

"an add on to you story Kumar...


on his journey from India on the Jaladuta, he suffered through two heart attacks

a testament to his courage and conviction that he continued in his quest to spread the gospel of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu"
............ChiefCowPie.


Dear ChiefCowPie,

Thank you so much. I knew the name of the vessel but could not remember.
However, I was not at all aware of the heart attacks. You have very truly said that it was a testament to His courage and conviction that He continued in His quest to spread the gospel of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu.

Thanks again, dear friend.

With love............Kumar.

[YogaLady]

All these wonderful posts!!! :)

That does it - my turn. LOL

Though I can't find an official quote, I have often been told that Prabhupada said George gave Krishna a home in the material world, and Krishna will give George a home in the spiritual world.

Here's a few qotes I found though:

Srila Prabhupada, Arrival Address, London, July 7, 73 “...given the facility of assembling in this nice house, this good boy George Harrison, we must give him all glories. We must be thankful to him that he has given us the facility, and Krsna will bless him more and more.”

Srila Prabhupada Lecture, London, Aug 26, 1973 "So we are opening centers all over the world. In America we have got about fifty centers, and in your Europe we have got about half a dozen or more than, dozen centers, including France, Germany, Amsterdam, England, and Ireland, Scotland. So this is a new center opened by us. This house has been very kindly given to us by George Harrison. He is a nice boy. He is taking to Krsna consciousness."

Prabhupada Letter to Syamaasundara, Los Angeles, May, 4, 1970 “Please offer my blessings to Sriman George and all the other Prabhus there. I am marking that George has the serving spirit, and that is making him advance gradually.” - Srila Prabhupada.

Srila Prabhupada Letter to Syamasundara, Hamburg, Aug 31, 1969 "I am very glad to know that Sriman George Harrison is nicely cooperating with your endeavors, and this action of him will not go in vain. Any little bit of service rendered to Krishna does not go in vain, so I am sure George will be benefited in the matter of Krishna Consciousness without doubt. Please convey my thanks to him for his willing cooperation with our men."



YL

[gdkumar]

Dear SvgGrdnBeauty,

I am glad that you liked the story(Duly completed by dear ChiefCowPie) of A.C.BhaktiVedanta Prabhupad.

Thank you for putting the wonderful songs here. Pray, nobody misses to read.
Second song is also very nice and equally good. In proper ambience, during meditation , this song must be wonderful.

With love........Kumar.

[gdkumar]

"All these wonderful posts!!! http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif

That does it - my turn. LOL

Though I can't find an official quote, I have often been told that Prabhupada said George gave Krishna a home in the material world, and Krishna will give George a home in the spiritual world.

Here's a few qotes I found though:

Srila Prabhupada, Arrival Address, London, July 7, 73 “...given the facility of assembling in this nice house, this good boy George Harrison, we must give him all glories. We must be thankful to him that he has given us the facility, and Krsna will bless him more and more.”

Srila Prabhupada Lecture, London, Aug 26, 1973 "So we are opening centers all over the world. In America we have got about fifty centers, and in your Europe we have got about half a dozen or more than, dozen centers, including France, Germany, Amsterdam, England, and Ireland, Scotland. So this is a new center opened by us. This house has been very kindly given to us by George Harrison. He is a nice boy. He is taking to Krsna consciousness."

Prabhupada Letter to Syamaasundara, Los Angeles, May, 4, 1970 “Please offer my blessings to Sriman George and all the other Prabhus there. I am marking that George has the serving spirit, and that is making him advance gradually.” - Srila Prabhupada.

Srila Prabhupada Letter to Syamasundara, Hamburg, Aug 31, 1969 "I am very glad to know that Sriman George Harrison is nicely cooperating with your endeavors, and this action of him will not go in vain. Any little bit of service rendered to Krishna does not go in vain, so I am sure George will be benefited in the matter of Krishna Consciousness without doubt. Please convey my thanks to him for his willing cooperation with our men."



YL "

Dear YogaLady,

Wonderful post! Thank you.

Refering to the two songs by G.H.(Inserted by SvgGrdnBeauty) I can only say that everything came so true for G.H. Definitely all his practices and blessings worked for him to make him a picture of devotion and humility and through him we also got benefited. We are also advancing gradually.

With love........Kumar.

[gdkumar]

"This has been a wonderful thread to read. I just wanted to say that I can really see the kinship and unity between us here and I to in recent times have come to understand the unity of religions. I grew up as a Southern Baptist.This year I studied Hinduism and Buddhism and I truely discovered Jesus and the true message and that all religions lead us to the same almight God. I respect, love , and revere Jesus, Krishna, Buddha, Mohammad, all the aspects of God http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif I have learned to see the light within the faiths that all shine together! As was said earlier about love, I love you guys as well.

Ben. "

Dear Cloudminerva,

Your views made me so happy! Thank you. Wish everybody could say like you, "I have learned to see the light within the faiths that all shine together."

When true love for God comes then the biased views go away and we rediscover everything. It is said that God is first and then come religions and all other things. Unfortunately for most of us it works the other way. For those love comes or develops first for religions and then God.

Wish you all the best brother. Please have faith and go ahead, Lord Jesus knows best for all of us. If we surrender, He shall take care of us and take us to the realm of blissful light.

With lots of love and prayers.......Kumar.

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

Dear SvgGrdnBeauty,

I am glad that you liked the story(Duly completed by dear ChiefCowPie) of A.C.BhaktiVedanta Prabhupad.

Thank you for putting the wonderful songs here. Pray, nobody misses to read.
Second song is also very nice and equally good. In proper ambience, during meditation , this song must be wonderful.

With love........Kumar.
Yes...that song is very wonderful for meditation. Actually...its very good for driving...I first heard it when I was in my car on the way to pick up a friend and I kept listening to it on repeat because I couldn't get enough of it...

I indeed do enjoy all of the stories that have been posted on here...I am actually recieving my first experience of reading the books of A.C.BhaktiVedanta Prabhupada, as soon as it comes in at the library. The book, which happens to be Bhagavad-gita As It Is, is the only book by him that our library carries...which is sad...but I am still happy nonetheless that at least one of his books is carried there...and I can't wait to read it when it comes.

Much love to you all!
Nicole

[sleeping jiva]

hey, Nicole:
It's really amazing for me to read that you're feeling so into reading Bhagavadgita :):) Well, that is the first book I've read(and still reading). They say we should start with that one. :)
Maybe this could help you out:
http://www.krishna.com/newsite/gita_frameset.html
http://www.krishna.com/newsite/main.php?id=33

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

hey, Nicole:
It's really amazing for me to read that you're feeling so into reading Bhagavadgita :):) Well, that is the first book I've read(and still reading). They say we should start with that one. :)
Maybe this could help you out:
http://www.krishna.com/newsite/gita_frameset.html
http://www.krishna.com/newsite/main.php?id=33
Thankies for the sites. I'll be sure to check them out! Yes, I am quite interested in reading it...I have to stick it somewhere in the 6 books I have to read for school this summer...but never fear...I WILL read it! :)

[YogaLady]

Hi,

Just wanted to say that many of the "original" books by Prabhupada have been changed. I dont know if that site has the originals or the changed ones, at all. They could be fine, simply I dont know. There is a site that clearly has the original, unchanged Bhagavad-gita by Prabhupada. If you want the url, its:

http://www.asitis.com


YL

[YogaLady]

Hey there Kumar,

Only a few minutes online right now but wanted to say thanks for all your kind words. :)

Maybe I can get back on later, and post some cool stuff too.


YL

[ChiefCowpie]

Bhaktivinoda Thakur’s relationship with Bipin Bihari Goswami

The name that is remarkable for its absence in the paramparä given by Siddhanta Saraswati is that of Bipin Bihari Goswami (1850-1919), the initiating spiritual master of Kedarnath Datta, Bhaktivinoda Thakur.

Born 3 Sravan 1850, Bipin Bihari was twelve years Bhaktivinoda’s junior. He was born in the family of Goswamis whose seat is in Baghna Para, between Kalna and Nabadwip in the Burdwan district. This is the seat of Ramachandra Goswami, the grandson of Vamsivadanananda Thakur, an associate of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, and the adopted son and disciple of Jahnava Thakurani, the wife of Nityananda Prabhu.

Married at 13, Bipin Bihari moved to Hooghly district. He became closely involved with the Brahmo Samaj, causing a reaction from other members of the Baghna Para family, who insisted that he move back to Kalna. There he began associating with the famous “siddha,” Bhagavan Das Babaji, one of the most notable Vaishnavas of the time. He studied the Vaishnava scriptures with Bhagavan Das for nine years. He also studied with another prominent renounced Vaishnava, Nabadwip’s Chaitanya Das Babaji. He took initiation from Yajneshwar Goswami in 1872.

Bipin Bihari began writing articles almost immediately after initiation and submitted articles on Gaudiya Vaishnavism to various magazines both in Bengali (Prema-pracäriëé, Saàväda-pürëa-candrodaya) and English (The Education Gazette). He made his reputation in 1877-1880 by giving lectures on the Bhägavata and attracted the attention of the king of Burdwan, Mahatap Chand. Aftab Chand, Mahatap Chand’s successor, also regularly invited Bipin Bihari to the Burdwan palace.

Bipin Bihari Goswami wrote a number of books. The first, written in Sanskrit, Harinämämåta-sindhu, was published in 1879. His major work, Daça-müla-rasa (1898), is over a thousand pages long and covers the gamut of Gaudiya Vaishnava doctrine and practice. Other works were Arcanämåta-sägara (1883), Madhura-milana, Sära-saìgraha, Bhäva-saìgraha, Hari-bhakti-taraìgiëé (1902) and a number of Sanskrit and Bengali poems and songs.

Kedarnath Datta and his wife both took initiation from Bipin Bihari Goswami in 1879, after three years of exchanging letters. Bhaktivinoda Thakur himself summarized his initiation from his guru in his autobiographical letter to his son Lalita Prasad in 1896.

quote: I had been searching for a suitable guru for a long time, but had not found one, so I was feeling disturbed. Whenever I met someone in whom I could have a little faith, when I studied his teachings and character, I would lose whatever little faith I had. I was quite worried, but Prabhu eradicated these worries in a dream. In that dream, I had a hint of what would happen and when day came, I felt joyful. A day or two later, Gurudeva wrote me a letter saying, “I will come soon and give you initiation.” When he came and performed the initiation rituals, I became cheerful. From that day on the sin of meat eating vanished from my heart and I began to feel a little compassion toward all beings. Bipin Bihari and Bhaktivinoda cooperated in the publication of Sajjana-toñaëé, which first appeared in 1882. Many articles by Bipin Bihari appeared there, as well as a translation of Vishnu-sahasra-nama. In January 1886, he arranged for his disciple to be given the title Bhaktivinoda in Baghna Para itself in a ceremony at the Baladeva Krishna temple.

Bhaktivinoda mentions his spiritual master’s name in several places in his own writings to offer him respects, as is appropriate Vaishnava etiquette for an author. These appear in works published in 1893 (Siddhi-lälasä of Géta-mälä), at the end of his commentary on the Chaitanya Charitamrita (1894) and in Bhagavatarka-marici-mala in 1901, one of the Thakur’s last works.

The two texts from Giti-mala are particularly interesting, as they indicate the siddha name of Bipin Bihari, which is Vilasa Manjari.

quote: When will Vilasa Manjari and Ananga Manjari [Jahnava Mata] see me and, being merciful, speak the follow essential words?

O Vilasa Manjari, Ananga Manjari and Rupa Manjari, please notice me and accept me at your feet, bestowing on me the essence of all perfection? In both of these songs, Bhaktivinoda follows the classical tradition established by Narottam Das of praying to his spiritual master in his siddha form as a manjari. It is thus clear that the siddha-pranali etc. Shukavak has shown in his work that Bhaktivinoda follows the Rasa-räja concept of worship that was developed in the early days of the Baghna Para line.

Bhaktivinoda Thakur also offers heartfelt prayers Kalyana-kalpa-taru for the association of Srimati Ananga Manjari in the spiritual world, showing furthermore a strong affinity for the Jahnava Mata, the original preceptor of the line of preceptors of which Bipin Bihari Goswami was a member.

Cooperation between Bhaktivinoda Thakur and his spiritual master continued on other levels to the very end of the former’s active career as a writer and preacher, which may be said to have ended in about 1907, the date of his last published work. Bipin Bihari participated in the meeting of dignitaries in Krishananagar in 1893, launching the project establishing Chaitanya’s birthplace in Mayapur. His magnum opus, Dasa-mula-rasa, written in 1898, not only quotes a verse written by Bhaktivinoda in 1896, but seems to have been inspired by it. In his autobiographical notes to that work, Bipin Bihari proudly mentions Kedarnath Datta as his disciple.

I have never seen any evidence that Bhaktivinoda Thakur ever said anything negative or dismissive about Bipin Bihari Gosvami..

Was this relationship ever disrupted?

The above gives what appears to be the very image of a perfectly harmonious guru-disciple relationship, but for a number of issues that come up in later days. The classical statement of this position is given by Rüpa Vilasa Dasa:

quote: Vipina-vihari Gosvami initially enjoyed a very sweet relationship with the Thakura, but later he is said to have been neglected by the Thakura due to a disagreement about the position of Raghunätha däsa Gosvämé. He also assisted the Öhäkura in his preaching work, but his spiritual advancement was not on the same level as the “Commander-in-chief of the Vaiñëavas,” as Srila Jagannatha dasa Babaji came to be called... This proposition is riddled with misconceptions. Those who follow in the line of Siddhanta Saraswati find it necessary to explain why the initiating spiritual master of Bhaktivinoda Thakur is not a part of their disciplic succession, as Siddhanta Saraswati may have felt it necessary to reject Bipin Bihari Goswami, but how to explain it if Bhaktivinoda Thakur did not do so?

Saraswati’s disciples adopt his concept of prioritizing teaching (siksha) over formal ordination (diksha) as a sign of relationship, thus leading them to prioritize Jagannath Das over Bipin Bihari in Bhaktivinoda Thakur’s life. This goes deeply against the Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition established by Jiva Goswami. At the time Bhaktivinoda was living, the positions of the siksha and diksha gurus would have been complementary, not exclusive. Even if Bhaktivinoda considered Jagannath to be more advanced than his own spiritual master, this does not affect his disciplic relationship with Bipin Bihari Goswami. There can only be one initiating guru, unless there is a sign of complete destitution from the spiritual path. There appears to be no evidence of this.

Thus any statements that Bhaktivinoda considered Jagannath Das Babaji to be his real spiritual master, for instance, by taking vesh from him (another misconception, by the way), or because Jagannath helped him to discover the place of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu’s appearance, or that called him Vaishnava-sarvabhauma have absolutely nothing to do with the relative importance of the two guru relationships. Sastra never sanctions distancing oneself from or rejecting a diksha guru unless the guru is seriously fallen or has become a non-Vaishnava.

Accusations that Bipin Bihari was engaged in some less than exemplary behavior are hearsay (smoking, etc. – see Nrisingha).

[ChiefCowpie]

The Raghunath Das Goswami Issue

Generally, a more significant claim is that Bhaktivinoda Thakur rejected Bipin Bihari because he had taken a stance on the Raghunath Das Goswami issue need to be taken seriously and we shall examine this case. The time and place that Saraswati Thakur discovered this "error" in Bipin Bihari's understanding came at the famous Balighai meeting, which took place on Bhadra 22, 1318 (September 1911).

Here is the way Narasingha Maharaj describes that event:



quote: In 1911 there was an famous assembly of scholars held in Medinpur (Bengal) wherein the topic of debate was to be on “Brahmin and Vaishnavas.” Bipin Bihari Goswami was present at that assembly and, as already known, he would side with the brahmana community in the platform that brahmana Vaishnavas were automatically superior to non-Brahmin Vaishnavas, due to a brahmana being born in a higher caste. Bhaktivinode Thakura was also invited to attend that assembly. The conflict between he and Bipin Bihari was destined. Bhaktivinoda Thakur - not wanting to take a position of confronting and attempting to defeat his “diksha guru” in a public forum declined to attend the meeting on the plea of bad health. In his place he sent Sarasvati Thakur (age 37) to represent the Gaudiya Vaisnava Siddhanta in the line of Sri Rupa and Raghunath Das Goswami, as per the teachings of Mahaprabhu. We all know what happened in the meeting.” In the “Baghnapara Sampradaya” book referred to the same incident, Kanan Bihari Goswami makes the following interesting statement: “He defeated the scriptural considerations of the Smarta pandits and demonstrated the superiority of Gaudiya Vaishnavism.” Evidently, there seems to be some misunderstanding. Both traditions seem to hold that their man was defending the same position.



quote: Bhaktivinoda Thakura did for sometime show formal respect to Bipin Bihari Goswami. But when the Goswami disrespected Srila Raghunatha dasa Goswami by thinking that he can give blessings to Raghunatha dasa, the prayojana-acarya, because Raghunatha dasa was from a “lower caste”, the Thakur distanced himself more from Bipin Bihari Goswami.” The evidence for this supposed statement by Bipin Bihari Goswami about Raghunath Das Goswami is also missing. There is evidence, however, for a statement of this type being made by one disciple of Bipin Bihari Goswami, a young zamindar by the name of Choudhary Jadabendranandan. Perhaps this got twisted into a rumor, which has now become a “fact” due to being put in writing. Since Bipin Bihari Goswami spoke strongly at the Midnapur debate that Vaishnavas were superior to Brahmins, this supposed statement becomes even more doubtful.

At the present time, I have no real understanding of what events generated the crisis that led to this particular meeting, but the issue of Raghunath Das Goswami keeps coming up. All Vaishnavas are agreed that a Vaishnava is superior to a Brahmin in the karma kanda. There are, however, some subtleties that have arisen in the course of time that were objected to by reformers like Siddhanta Saraswati. These were principally the incursion of caste conventions into Gaudiya Vaishnavism. This will require something of a detour into other matters, but which are not without relevance to the subject at hand.

Of the six Goswamis, Raghunath Das Goswami was the only one who was not born in the Brahminical caste. He was also the first person known to have worshiped the Giridhari shila, which was given to him by Lord Chaitanya himself. Why did he worship Giridhari instead of Shalagram, like Rupa Goswami or Gopal Bhatta? Some consider this to be exemplary behavior on his part, setting an example, of putting Shalagram worship, like the Gayatri mantra and sacred thread, as not being desirable for Vaishnavas of a lower class. As with the wearing of saffron cloth, the standards of behavior of the associates of Mahaprabhu are considered law that stands above scripture. Thus, though scripture approves the worship of Shalagram by non-Brahmin Vaishnavas, the maryädä followed by most Gaudiyas not born in the Brahmin caste is that they do not do so. The usual reference is found in Jiva Goswami's commentary to Bhagavata-purana (3.33.6). He there states that there is no need for a non-Brahmin Vaishnava to perform the savana-yajna, even though the verse clearly states there he is so so free from sin that he is "eligible" to do so. Jiva interprets this to mean that a low-caste Vaishnava is more revered than a Brahmin, but that this verse does not specifically permit him to act as a karma-kanda Brahmin. The primary reason for this is that is such sacrifices are specifically outside the scope of a Vaishnava's duties. Vishwanath Chakravarti (himself a Brahmin) has elaborated further on this point to some degree, stating that since such activities are lower on the spiritual hierarchy, they are not to be taken up by even Brahmin Vaishnavas.

In other words, the position of both Jiva and Vishwanath was that the social status quo was not to be touched by one’s Vaishnavism, which was internal. Siddhanta Saraswati’s Daiva Varnashram ideas were radically opposed to this vision, as he tried to actually democratize the Brahminical function and open it, so to speak, to people from all castes and races.

Some people have taken the position that Bipin Bihari expressed the opinion that he, as a Brahmin, was in a position to bless Raghunath, as a Shudra. This kind of statement is obviously inflammatory. All evidence indicates that Raghunath, as a humble Vaishnava, observed the social protocol of the time and would have offered respects to a Brahmin. There is external protocol and inner spiritual achievement. The external protocol is based on social position, not on inner worth. Hari Das Thakur observed the protocols of Jagannath Puri; despite being universally recognized as a man who was as holy, if not more so than the Brahmins who served Jagannath, he never attempted to enter the temple there.

No doubt caste prestige and position are dangerous spiritually and also lead to social abuse. From a Marxist perspective, the only way that the lower caste or casteless Vaishnava could gain a modicum of social prestige was to become a renunciate, in other words, to take himself out of the social situation and all its consequent worldly privileges. This critique is separate and distinct from those found in the scriptures, where the issue is whether a lower caste Hindu can enhance himself socially (and by extension his family) by becoming a Vaishnava. As the Vaishnava is supposed to be indifferent to Varnashram, elevation to Brahminical duties through his religious activities or spiritual achievements is clearly counterindicated.

Thus if Bipin Bihari Goswami followed the traditions of the sampradaya as taught by Jiva and Vishwanath, he can hardly be condemned for being unworthy or to be rejected, even if the egalitarian position is considered more just.

[b]Bipin Bihari rejected Bhaktivinoda?

Finally, an important claim that appears to be corroborated by Claims that Bipin Bihari Goswami rejected Bhaktivinoda because of preaching lies about the birthplace of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu.

The only information I have of this is from a secondary source by the abovementioned Kanan Bihari Goswami:

Many caste goswamis objected to Sri Mayapur (which they called Miapur) being called the original birthsite of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. Bipin Bihari Goswami at that time rejected Bhaktivinoda’s preaching in a small newspaper of his own called Gauranga-sevaka Patrika in 1919, even though in 1891 he had participated in its establishment.

What is curious is that this was done posthumously (BVT died in 1914), in a time when Siddhanta Saraswati was preaching vigorously in favor of the Mayapur Yogapith, especially in opposition to the counter-discovery of another birthplace on the other side of the Ganges.

One thing that is well known is that there was a lot of politics between different groups of Gaudiya Vaishnavas over the location of the actual birthsite of Caitanya Mahaprabhu, even before the Gaudiya Math was started. After the disappearance of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur in 1914 these political controversies became quite shrill, and there were nasty exchanges going on.

One last point is the statement is that Bhaktivinoda “did not imbibe any of the conceptions of Bipin Bihari Goswami,” particularly one of the matters that are central, namely the relative importance of chanting the Holy Names in contrast to the stress on siddha-praëäli given by Bipin Bihari Goswami.” This of course is nonsense, both in that Bhaktivinoda did stress the siddha-praëäli in at least three of his books, Jaiva-dharma, Caitanya-çikñämåta and Harinäma-cintämaëi. Nevertheless, until an in-depth study of Bipin Bihari’s writings is done, no one can make any authoritative statements on this matter. From all indications, however, from 1880 up until at least 1898, the two worked harmoniously.

[YogaLady]

I know that many, probably most, of Prabhupada's godbrothers did not like what Prabhupada did, or his success. They constantly caused him trouble, so I'm not going to get into who said what, when, where, that his godbrothers would fault find with him about. Prabhupada came right out and said his godbrothers were envious of him. He was the only one willing to cross an ocean or get two heart attacks in order to follow the insturction of his guru maharaja, and to save us, while the others remained nicely living where they were. So if you dont mind, I'm not going to analyze those last two posts and will stick with Prabhupada and what he said. I only mentioned the book changes becuase they were done by Prabhupada's own disciples (who have been criticized by many for it) and not because it had anything to do with Prabhupada's various godbrothers and their branches. This is getting too political for me. I'm just a simple follower of Prabupada. I think George Harrision was too.


YL

[YogaLady]

Here's part of a conversation I found between George Harrison and Srila Prabhupada. (Brings feelings of bliss IMHO.)


(Prabhupada is very hoarse)
George Harrison: How do you feel?
Prabhupada: I have old man's disease, cough and cold, so coughing. But still, work is going on, and I shall complete eighty years this month. September, eighty-one. So now, due to age, it is becoming little difficult.
George Harrison: Yes.
Prabhupada: Anyway, by the grace of Krsna.... So how are you?
George Harrison: Quite good.
Prabhupada: Chanting is going on?
George Harrison: Yes.
Prabhupada: Thank you. That is our life and soul. Grhe va vanete thake, 'ha gauranga' bole dake. Wherever you live, it doesn't matter, chant Hare Krsna. That's all. That is our only support. So bring food here.
Jayatirtha: We should have the lunch here?
Prabhupada: Yes.
George Harrison: All the devotees are looking really good.
Prabhupada: Eh?
George Harrison: The devotees are looking great. Strong.
Prabhupada: (laughs) Yes. Phalena pariciyate. By the result, one has to study. Yesterday, one devotee's father and mother came, Hari-sauri. She and his father were very pleased to see him healthy, bright.
Mukunda: They hadn't seen him for six years.
Prabhupada: Six years, yes. So we are inviting everyone, "Come here. Such a nice house given by George (laughs). You live here comfortably, eat nicely, and chant Hare Krsna." We don't want any factory work.
George Harrison: No.
Prabhupada: (laughs) Simply kartal and mrdanga. Still, people do not come. They'll prefer to go the factory, whole day work in the hell. (laughs) They prefer.
George Harrison: I suppose some day the whole of the world will just be chanting in the country.
Prabhupada: That is not possible, but if some of the leading men, they take it seriously, then others will follow. Just like in our book, your signature is there, "Oh, George Harrison. Yes." They take it without any consideration. Krsna book. Yad yad acarati sresthas tad tad evetaro janah. If the leading man does something, then his followers also do. This is the way. So if some of the leading men of the world, they take this movement seriously, then people will be happy. There's no doubt about it. You have come alone, without any associate?
George Harrison: Just on my own.
Prabhupada: That's all right.
George Harrison: It took me a while to find it. They're always building new roads everywhere and change the whole countryside. So I got a little lost.
Prabhupada: You came here twice, right?
George Harrison: Yes, I've been here three times. Where will you be in India when you go back to India?
Prabhupada: Most probably in Bombay. You have been in my Bombay?
George Harrison: I was going to go to Bombay. Yes, Bombay and Vrndavana when they were just building.
Prabhupada: Oh, Vrndavana, if you come there, stay for some time.
George Harrison: Yes, well, ah, this December...
Prabhupada: We have got very nice houses, both in Bombay and Vrndavana. And Mayapur also. Wherever you like. You will not be very uncomfortable.
George Harrison: I was going to go to Bombay for a wedding. Some friends are getting married.
Prabhupada: When?
George Harrison: December the fifth, I think.
Prabhupada: Very nice season in Bombay. Best time.
George Harrison: You know, I think you met Laksmi Shankar, lady singer? Her daughter, who is also a singer, Viji, Viji Sri Shankar, and she's marrying a South Indian violin player, L. Shankar.
Prabhupada: He's also Shankar?
George Harrison: Well, he's called L. Shankar. You know that South India they have a funny way around them, they have like a surname. He's just called L. Shankar. His brother is called L. Subhramanyam.
Devotee (1): George says he wants to spend some time in Vrndavana.
George Harrison: I was only there for about thirty-six hours last time.
Prabhupada: We have got now very good centers. Another gentleman, he's offering us a very good place at Mahabalesvara. That's one of the famous India stations. A very nice climate. So you can come and stay there. We have got now many good centers.
George Harrison: I'll come and see if you're in Bombay, because I'll be near where the temple is.
Prabhupada: Yes. Bombay is just like garden. As good as your place here. No. Not so big. It is seventeen acres, and Bombay is five. Just go on. (prasadam being served) Give him whatever you have got to give. But don't give much. When he wants something more.... Waste not, want not. Give more, that preparation, you should give more. (laughter) That is called (indistinct). You can bring it, prasada.
George Harrison: I'll just wash my hands.
Prabhupada: You can wash here. The sink is there. Here is also water. You can put the bowls outside, here, so that there will be sufficient place. Our Indian system is like this. That's all right. Sit down, you also sit down.
George Harrison: I see you've done new books. You've been so busy, there's so many books.
Prabhupada: Yes. There are already fifty-four, and another at least thirty books I have to finish before my death. (laughs) That I am.... Give him a puri. Where is Ravi Shankar?
George Harrison: He's in.... I think he's in New York. He'll be here the first of August, and then I think he's...
Prabhupada: He has got his house there? In New York?
George Harrison: No, just a house in Benares. Benares. He doesn't have anything. He just stays in hotels.
Prabhupada: I thought in Washington somebody told me that George Washing..., George Harrison has got his house here.
George Harrison: Yes, he had a little house here, but he...
Prabhupada: No, you have got your house in Washington?
George Harrison: No.
Prabhupada: No. Now we can begin.
George Harrison: Okay, Hare Krsna.
Gurudasa: Nimbu-pani?
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. You give him two more samosas, he likes it. So now you can begin also. Yes. All the boys and girls are so nicely qualified for Krsna's service.
George Harrison: They are looking better and better all the time. It's nice for me to see Gurudasa. He's turning into a mountain. (laughter)
Prabhupada: His wife has also sannyasi, renounced. Have you seen her latest?
George Harrison: No.
Prabhupada: She has cut hair and white dress, living alone in the temple. Vairagya-vidya-nija-bhakti-yogam. This bhakti-yoga means vairagya-vidya, means detachment. That is the perfection of life. If we remain attached, that is conditional. Maya has made so many things attractive so that we have to remain attached, and to come out of this attachment is called bhakti. So one man, you can sit down, you can eat. Pradyumna, you can eat.
Pradyumna: I've taken some milk before.
Prabhupada: Oh, you don't require. Now you can eat, go on. Prasada prapti matrena. Our Jayatirtha prabhu is a good manager. Management, looking after. Yes, he's a very good manager, experienced.
George Harrison: Hm?
Prabhupada: He's experienced manager.
Jayatirtha: Not very good managing this place now.
George Harrison: Well, it seems okay. Seems to be taken over pretty good. Peacefully.
Prabhupada: He was also managing Los Angeles. Now we have brought him here to see things nicely managed.
George Harrison: It feels good, nice vibrations.


YL

[YogaLady]

I must sign off but found just one more conversation.

Prabhupada: This instruction of Srimad-Bhagavatam was never given before in the Western countries. This is the first time.
George Harrison: Yes.
Prabhupada: Therefore they're appreciating. We are selling our books daily sixty thousand dollars. All over the world.
Mukunda: Srila Prabhupada, you're going to outdo Shakespeare soon. You'll have written more English words than William Shakespeare. (Prabhupada laughs) Maybe you already have.
Hari-sauri: I don't think Shakespeare's brought out fifty-six books.
Mukunda: The Encyclopedia Brittanica wrote to us asking for...
Prabhupada: They have said...
George Harrison: These books are such a lot of work. I don't know how he did it all.
Gurudasa: While everyone else sleeps, Prabhupada...
George Harrison: Yes.
Prabhupada: At night I don't sleep. Not that because I am nowadays sick. But generally I don't sleep. At most two hours. At most.
Hari-sauri: I think it's a long time since you've taken any rest at night.
Prabhupada: I take little rest during daytime. So on the whole, three to four hours. But actually I do not like to sleep.


YL

[ChiefCowpie]

I know that many, probably most, of Prabhupada's godbrothers did not like what Prabhupada did, or his success. They constantly caused him trouble, so I'm not going to get into who said what, when, where, that his godbrothers would fault find with him about. Prabhupada came right out and said his godbrothers were envious of him. He was the only one willing to cross an ocean or get two heart attacks in order to follow the insturction of his guru maharaja, and to save us, while the others remained nicely living where they were. So if you dont mind, I'm not going to analyze those last two posts and will stick with Prabhupada and what he said. I only mentioned the book changes becuase they were done by Prabhupada's own disciples (who have been criticized by many for it) and not because it had anything to do with Prabhupada's various godbrothers and their branches. This is getting too political for me. I'm just a simple follower of Prabupada. I think George Harrision was too.


YL
ummmm...lotus...what are you smokin??? those last two posts had nothing to do with Prabhupada's relationship with the Gaudiya Matha and his godbrothers but on the controversies of the birthplace of Mahaprabhu at Mayapura vs. Navadwipa as well as Bhaktivinoda Thakur's relationship with his diksa guru, Bipin Bihari Goswami

[ChiefCowpie]

lotus, i think too in the simpleness that you propond to on the emnity between S. P. and his Godbrothers is simplistic...as well as the rest of the Gaudiy Vaisnavas and Hindu Religious community

here is what i feel a more comprehensive understanding from Jagadananda dasa
"I personally joined Iskcon in 1970 and lived in the Mayapur ashram for nearly five years, from 1975 to 1979. During this time I learned Bengali and was given much opportunity to meet many Gaudiya Math sadhus, nearly every branch of which is represented in the Nabadwip area. Of these, I especially name Iskcon’s neighbor, Damodar Maharaj, the disciples of Goswami Maharaj in Ishodyan, the disciples of Keshava Maharaj at the Devananda Gaudiya Math, and Bhakti Rakshaka Sridhar Maharaj, who showed great personal kindness toward me. Through these contacts, I was quite aware of Gaudiya Math culture and how it differed from that of Iskcon. Furthermore, I developed a great respect and personal liking for many of the acharyas I had the chance to meet and hear, including H.H. Bhakti Hridoy Bon Maharaj, H.H. Bhakti Dayita Madhava Maharaj, H.H. Bhakti Kevala Audulomi Maharaj, H.H. Bhaktivedanta Vaman Maharaj, H.H. Bhaktivedanta Narayan Maharaj, and others. There were many others, whose Hari Katha I did not hear, but the dust of whose lotus feet I had the opportunity to take. Besides my debt to Srila Prabhupada Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaj, I acknowledge my debt to all these sadhus in the Gaudiya Math and through them to Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur.

A very important experience marked me in 1977. I was given the task of fulfilling one of Srila Prabhupada's last requests, made in his last will and testament. He had asked that a representative go to all the Vaishnava temples and maths in the Nabadwip area, regardless of sampradaya, to request forgiveness on his behalf for any offenses he may have committed during his life of preaching. A donation of one or two hundred rupees was made to all of these maths for Vaishnava seva. Just as I found this act of humility on Srila Prabhupada's part to be glorious, I was equally impressed by the humble reaction of all those I met on this occasion.

In 1979, two years after Srila Prabhupada’s disappearance, after reading the books of Bhaktivinoda Thakur like Bhajana-rahasya, Harinama-chintamani and Jaiva Dharma, I became interested in the practice of raganuga bhakti. Through a friend, Madhusudan Das, I also became aware of the initiation and disciplic succession issues. (See Articles #1 (http://www.jagat.wisewisdoms.com/articles/”http://www.granthamandira.org/~jagat/articles/showarticle.php?id=12”) and #2 (http://www.jagat.wisewisdoms.com/articles/”http://www.granthamandira.org/~jagat/articles/showarticle.php?id=15”)). As a result, I decided to take shelter of Sri Sri Lalita Prasad Thakur, the son and initiated disciple of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur, who granted me initiation and siddha pranali. Lalita Prasad Thakur was 99 years old at the time and I was thus only able to spend a few weeks directly in his association; nevertheless, I was able through him to get a new perspective on Gaudiya Vaishnava history. By his grace, the doors were opened for me to see the Vaishnava world in an exciting new way. For the next six years, I lived in Nabadwip, Vrindavan and Radha Kund, engaging in bhajan and learning about the history and philosophy of Gaudiya Vaishnavism from a non-Gaudiya Math perspective. At this time, I was able to meet a number of the leading renunciates in Radha Kund, of whom Ananta Das Pandit stands out.

Admittedly, in the first few years outside the Gaudiya Math, I took a somewhat militant attitude over the diksha and sampradaya issue, which did not endear me to those in the Gaudiya Math. Looking back on the few contacts I had with members of those institutions, I can recall several unfruitful conversations. I apologize to those with whom I may have overaggressively pleaded my cause.

In view of the importance given to the spiritual master in Hinduism generally and in Gaudiya Vaishnavism in particular, it is not surprising that I am often treated as a "guru tyagi." This is a difficult accusation to counter. I have never regretted the decision I made to go to Lalita Prasad Thakur and to learn the traditional esoteric practices of raganuga bhakti and the world views of the various Vaishnava subgroups that make up Gaudiya Vaishnavism. At the same time, I sincerely believe that I have remained true to the essential faith that came to me through Bhaktivedanta Swami--why, otherwise, would I be here? As such, I continue to pay my respectful obeisances to A. C Bhaktivedanta Swami and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur.

In 1985, I returned to Canada to study comparative religion at McGill University in Montreal and eventually take a PhD in Sanskrit from the University of London (SOAS). The time spent in studying various dimensions of religious life gave me new insights into my own experiences and the history of the Gaudiya Vaishnava sampradaya. Though no one can ever be entirely free of prejudice, there is nothing more salutary for the mind and spirit than to learn to see other points of view sympathetically. Indeed, it was a very refreshing experience to look at the history of Krishna consciousness from an outsider’s point of view and to see what positive insights could be gained from such an exercise. Furthermore, the study of other religions has convinced me that the Krishna consciousness movement has as much, if not more, to learn as it has to teach.

One of the major errors made by those in the Gaudiya Math who criticize me is to think that I am a propagandist for either the traditional Vaishnava world or academic secularism. Although it is not unusual to see people who follow the route I have taken to undergo a radical conversion to atheism, agnosticism or a secular, pantheistic kind of faith, this is not what happened to me. Rather, I have become interested in serving my faith through the things that I have learned. At the same time I think that in our pluralistic world, this will only come about through a liberalization and modernization of the Krishna movement. I hold that all religions have a core faith as well as peripheral beliefs that need to be weighed separately, and that we must keep the core faith foremost and be prudent about peripherals. I call this, following Bhaktivinoda Thakur, the principle of the “sara-grahi.” As such, I am wary of what I see as fundamentalism and propaganda, whether it comes from Iskcon and the Gaudiya Math, or from the traditional Gaudiya Vaishnava movement, or any other religion. Questions of legitimacy cannot be settled by shouting the loudest, but only by honest self-examination.

In my conversations with Tripurari Maharaj, I was very impressed by his liberal attitude towards me personally. I had become rather accustomed to being treated by Iskcon and Gaudiya Math representatives as a pariah and had indeed been assiduously avoiding them for years. It became apparent to me that, despite our different life experiences, Tripurari Maharaj had developed what I perceived as an enlightened and liberal understanding of Krishna consciousness. He had come to the disturbing realization that there was a certain self-perpetuating, destructive and unproductive culture of Vaishnava aparadha in sections of the Gaudiya Math. He had experienced this several levels—first, when unfair accusations had been levied against him and Sridhar Maharaj when he left Iskcon to take shelter of him as his siksha guru, and later, when those in various Gaudiya Math denominations criticized his decision to publish and preach independently. Though Tripurari Maharaj is unswervingly committed to the decision he made to seek further teaching on spiritual life from his siksha guru, he had a non-judgmental, generous and sympathetic attitude to the decisions I had made to similarly seek a wider understanding of the Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition, both in its scholarly as well as experiential dimensions. Furthermore, through our conversations, I was able, through him, to renew my appreciation for Siddhanta Saraswati Thakur as a reformer whose principle purpose was to preach against hypocrisy.

[ChiefCowpie]

I made it quite clear to Maharaj at that time that I did not consider the initiation issue to be one that was of sufficient importance to divide Vaishnavas. (Please see Who genuinely represents Chaitanya Mahaprabhu? (http://www.granthamandira.org/~jagat/articles/showarticle.php?id=90)) I furthermore told him at that time that I recognized the validity of many of Saraswati Thakur’s reforms and how I accepted them as historically necessary in the evolution of the Gaudiya Vaishnava religion.

However, I also told him that I was deeply wounded by the Gaudiya Math rhetoric that makes a blanket condemnation of everyone outside its institutions as a Sahajiya or Mayavadi. I have met too many sincere and learned Vaishnavas outside the Gaudiya Math to be fooled by such talk. Tripurari Maharaj agreed with me that even the kanishtha adhikari merits respect and that even where there is disagreement, that is no excuse for wanton name-calling. I was deeply impressed at the maturity of Tripurari Maharaj’s insights into the problems of fundamentalism and sectarianism and came away renewed with hope that there was a possibility of a wider, more inclusive and universal Krishna consciousness movement.

Subsequently, when the opportunity came to work for Mandala Media, I happened to be available and I jumped at it, for it gave me the chance to remain close to my areas of expertise. Though I could no doubt have continued searching for work in the academic field or in the private sector as a translator (for which I am also qualified), there were many reasons that I prefered to work in this area: first of all, it permitted me to have the associate of devotees; it further gave me the chance to engage myself full time in the study of Krishna conscious literature; it allowed me to perfect my translation skills, and it also allowed me to use these skills in the service of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. Furthermore, it has made it possible for me to encounter the sweet personality of Bhakti Promode Puri Maharaj and many of his disciples, whom I hold in the greatest esteem.

In the meantime, however, I have continued in my spare time to write and post articles that give my perspective on Gaudiya Vaishnavism. Some people see this as an attempt to undermine the Gaudiya Math and a conflict of interest. This is, I feel, a very narrow understanding of what I am doing. I would like to assure everyone that I have no malicious intent. My goal is not to destroy anyone’s faith, but rather to bring us to a more nuanced understanding of the issues, which hopefully will help us Vaishnavas to find greater understanding amongst ourselves, for we have common spiritual and human goals and should seek ways to find friendship and loving relationships, not enmity.

I have stated this elsewhere, but I repeat it again, for it bears constant repetition: there are essential and peripheral matters in spiritual life. The sara-grahi fixes his attention on the essence and does not allow peripherals to distract him. The sectarian is not a sara-grahi, for he takes peripheral matters of history as essential and is willing to fight for them. As with all sectarian attitudes, this is usually counterproductive. Most of the battles between the various Gaudiya Vaishnava groups are over peripheral issues.

Why bring them up, then, you may say? Unfortunately, they must be discussed in order to show their peripheral nature.

Logical argument is of no use against those who do not think logically. Our attachments to particular viewpoints are often clouded by emotions that we do not ourselves recognize. Nevertheless, I think it is important to show that “the other side has a point.” It is only possible to engage in meaningful discussion when we recognize value in the other person. Sectarianism insists that there is no good in the other. Fundamentalists live in a black and white universe, holed up in a fortress of their own cherished beliefs where they defend themselves against the oncoming hordes. The closer the hordes come, the more likely they are to take pot shots and use low blows.

The worst enemy in the mind of the Gaudiya Math is, not surprisingly, the traditional world of Gaudiya Vaishnavism, because they broke away from this world and are so often forced to defend themselves against the accusation that they do not genuinely represent the Chaitanya Vaishnava tradition. This is the same reason that Iskcon has to worry about the Gaudiya Math, which can always claim that Iskcon does not purely represent the traditions of Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati. I ask you not to mistake me for a cheap propagandist for one or the other side in these disputes. Each of these groups has its merits—and its faults. But the principal fault is, as usual, in our claims to be the exclusive purveyors of the truth. There is no other route to dialogue than through understanding the other’s point of view and trying to see its merit.

All of us are obliged by the law of spiritual life to seek out a path by which we can evolve to the highest degree. There are as many paths to spiritual development as there are individual human beings. This is why there are millions of religions and religious denominations in the world. Though the path we find for ourselves may illuminate our own understanding, it is not necessarily going to be the spiritual language that speaks to everyone. We live in a pluralistic world and it is an absolute necessity to accept that the beauty of Krishna consciousness lies in great part in the ability of Vaishnavas to create a culture of love and community. Its success as a religious movement will only come from its ability to do this. If we seek enmity and make fear and envy our guiding lights, then we condemn ourselves to become an ever fragmenting world of petty, warring sects. This was recognized by Saraswati Thakur. This was recognized by Srila Prabhupada, who condemned the Gaudiya Math for having succumbed to it. This was also recognized by Paramadvaiti Maharaj and Bhakti Promode Puri Maharaj, who formed the World Vaishnava Association in order to promote unity amongst at least the Saraswata Gaudiya Vaishnavas. The future of the Krishna consciousness movement lies not in exclusivism, but in openness.

[gdkumar]

Dear ChiefCowPie,

Thank you so much for all the beautiful posts.
They are so informative and it is so nice to look back into the history of our self-made making and breaking. I feel indebted to you for all the posts.

Particularly, the article of Jagadananda Dasa is excellent. His, love, sincerity and pain for HK movement is conspicuous throughout the article. I particularly love the following paras:

"I have stated this elsewhere, but I repeat it again, for it bears constant repetition: there are essential and peripheral matters in spiritual life. The sara-grahi fixes his attention on the essence and does not allow peripherals to distract him. The sectarian is not a sara-grahi, for he takes peripheral matters of history as essential and is willing to fight for them. As with all sectarian attitudes, this is usually counterproductive. Most of the battles between the various Gaudiya Vaishnava groups are over peripheral issues.

Why bring them up, then, you may say? Unfortunately, they must be discussed in order to show their peripheral nature.

Logical argument is of no use against those who do not think logically. Our attachments to particular viewpoints are often clouded by emotions that we do not ourselves recognize. Nevertheless, I think it is important to show that “the other side has a point.” It is only possible to engage in meaningful discussion when we recognize value in the other person. Sectarianism insists that there is no good in the other. Fundamentalists live in a black and white universe, holed up in a fortress of their own cherished beliefs where they defend themselves against the oncoming hordes. The closer the hordes come, the more likely they are to take pot shots and use low blows.

The worst enemy in the mind of the Gaudiya Math is, not surprisingly, the traditional world of Gaudiya Vaishnavism, because they broke away from this world and are so often forced to defend themselves against the accusation that they do not genuinely represent the Chaitanya Vaishnava tradition. This is the same reason that Iskcon has to worry about the Gaudiya Math, which can always claim that Iskcon does not purely represent the traditions of Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati. I ask you not to mistake me for a cheap propagandist for one or the other side in these disputes. Each of these groups has its merits—and its faults. But the principal fault is, as usual, in our claims to be the exclusive purveyors of the truth. There is no other route to dialogue than through understanding the other’s point of view and trying to see its merit.

All of us are obliged by the law of spiritual life to seek out a path by which we can evolve to the highest degree. There are as many paths to spiritual development as there are individual human beings. This is why there are millions of religions and religious denominations in the world. Though the path we find for ourselves may illuminate our own understanding, it is not necessarily going to be the spiritual language that speaks to everyone. We live in a pluralistic world and it is an absolute necessity to accept that the beauty of Krishna consciousness lies in great part in the ability of Vaishnavas to create a culture of love and community. Its success as a religious movement will only come from its ability to do this. If we seek enmity and make fear and envy our guiding lights, then we condemn ourselves to become an ever fragmenting world of petty, warring sects. This was recognized by Saraswati Thakur. This was recognized by Srila Prabhupada, who condemned the Gaudiya Math for having succumbed to it. This was also recognized by Paramadvaiti Maharaj and Bhakti Promode Puri Maharaj, who formed the World Vaishnava Association in order to promote unity amongst at least the Saraswata Gaudiya Vaishnavas. The future of the Krishna consciousness movement lies not in exclusivism, but in openness."

I suppose, we should take the above as words of caution for all of us.We should all try to become sar-grahi and should not keep squabbling over the peripherals.

Thanks again.

With love.......Kumar.

[gdkumar]

Dear All,

As far as I Know, after A.C. Vaktivedanta Prabhupada left His body I think Jayapataka Maharaj became the Acharya of ISKCON. I may be wrong. However, I would like to know more about him.

I would be highly obliged if somebody tells me about him.

With love........Kumar.

[YogaLady]

Dont know what all these lotus's are about but I'm a simple follower of Prabhupada. No, Jayapataka did not take over iskcon. He was chased by police for a while though for some unlawful thing. Prabhupada is the only one who still represents Prabhupada (and Lord Caitanya), but go for whoever youre into. Politics will always be there. Must rush again but will be back.


YL

[gdkumar]

Dear All,

Long back in 1980 I had the opportunity to visit ISKCON temple at Mayapur.
Jayapataka Maharaj was the Acharya of the temple at that time. It was a very nice experience for me. The atmosphere inside the temple,the deities,the habitants, guests and visitors- all made the whole place vibrant.

After a while, after making friendship, one of the inmates of the temple told me,
"If you want to see real great sadhu, please go out from the temple and walk a little. On the road side you will find a small hut and the sadhu inside. He used to live inside the temple before."

Immediately I ran for him and found the very small hut(10'x10' maxm). There was nobody around. The only door opened after some time and a tall American sadhu came out from inside. I did my pranam. He did not say anything and started walking along the road.

I still remeber him only because of his appearance, his face was glowing and whole body was radiant and jyotirmay. I came to know that after coming to ISKCON temple at Mayapur he had developed serious differences of opinions and after sometime he left the temple and started living inside that small hut.

I shall be highly obliged if anybody has any knowledge about this sadhu. I am not at all interested in knowing what went wrong between him and the others inside the temple. I do not know his name but till date I have not fogotten him.

With love........Kumar.

[gdkumar]

Dear YogaLady,

Thanks for all your beautiful posts.

Please calm down, no body is trying to do any politics here.

I always said, I know just a little. I knew little only about A.C. Vaktivedanta Prabhupada and His Guru. I mentioned that I was not sure about Jayapataka Maharaj. However, thank you so much for the information about him.

No body is fool or capable enough to try to degrade Prabhupada. May not be more than you but I love Him no less. I do not like to fool myself and the same I expect from others that they should not fool themselves.

We say we love, alright, but when true love comes then bias should disappear. I love Prabhupada very much but that should not mean that the others are not even worthy of discussion.

Lord Krishna is not only in A.C.Prabhupada, He is in you, me,ChiefCowPie and police-chased-Jayapataka Maharaj as well. As good devotees let us be more tolerant and less harsh.God's true devotees never fall short of love.
With love.........Kumar.

[YogaLady]

Here's some stuff Prabhuapda says about Gaudiya Math, and it appears Jagadananda (?) is a branch of that.

"Regarding the Gaudiya Math, our position has nothing to do with them. They cannot do anything and if somebody does something, they will be envious. That is the nature of third class men. My Guru Maharaja once told this story; one friend informed another that one man has become the High Court Judge. "Oh no," he replied, "No. That cannot be right." "Yes, he is now a Judge," said the first friend. "I have seen him sitting on the bench." The second man replied, "Maybe. But I don't think he is getting any salary." Such envious men will find out some fault anywhere. There is no fault, actually, but they will manufacture some fault. That is their business. So many persons were envious of my Guru Maharaja, but He was preaching and did not care for them." Prabhupada letter to Yamuna dd, Nov 18, 70

"There are similarly men also. Unnecessarily they are envious, offensive, unnecessary. They cannot tolerate others' opulence. Just like our Godbrothers. They are envious. What I have done to them? I am doing my business, trying to serve my Guru Maharaja. But they are envious because I am so opulent. I have got so much fame, so many influence, so much influence all over the world. Everyone is praising me about... That is ignorance. And this is regrettable because they are posing themselves as Vaisnava. Ordinary man can do that, but they are dressing like Vaisnava, and they are so envious. That Tirtha Maharaja, unnecessarily he was envious, whole life fighting, fighting, fighting in the court and died. Simply planning." Prabhupada's Room Conversation in Bombay 1/8/77

"So, we can understand that they have all become sudras. How can they have interest in Bhagavad-gita. Although some of them have been born in brahmana families, but by quality are all sudras." Prabhupada's letter to Niranjana 5/21/73

"So any one of my godbrothers cannot help me in this way of book writing because they are unfortunate in the matter of preaching work. They are simply trying to infiltrate our society to so something harmful by their attempt. So please do not have any correspondence with this Purusottama or any of my godbrothers, so-called." - Prabhupada letter to Karaunasindhu, Bombay, Nov 9, 75

I do not wish to discuss about activities of my Godbrothers but it is a fact they have no life for preaching work. All are satisfied with a place for residence in the name of a temple, they engage disciples to get foodstuff by transcendental devices and eat and sleep. They have no idea or brain how to broadcast the cult of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. My Guru Maharaja used to lament many times for this reason and he thought if one man at least had understood the principle of preaching then his mission would achieve success. In the latter days of my Guru Maharaja he was very disgusted. Actually, he left this world earlier, otherwise he would have continued to live for more years. Still he requested his disciples to form a strong Governing body for preaching the cult of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. He never recommended anyone to be acarya of the Gaudiya Math. -Prabhupada's letter to Rupanuga 4/28/74

"So I have now issued orders that all my disciples should avoid all of my godbrothers. They should not have any dealings with them nor even correspondence, nor should they give them any of my books or should they purchase any of their books, neither should you visit any of their temples. Please avoid them." ~ Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Visvakarma, 11/9/75

YL

[YogaLady]

Dear YogaLady,

Thanks for all your beautiful posts.

Please calm down, no body is trying to do any politics here.

LOL Relax Kumar. I'm not upset. Maybe you are reading it that way, but I'm not. Just making a point.

I never said don't talk about others. If open to truly talking about others, then why I can't post Prabhuapda's point of view on these others and yet we can talk about this without interpreting it as upset? Ahhh good point, eh? lol

There are politics. Not wanting to call them that doesn't remove them from the fact. Other gurus are not the politics. There are gurus all over the world. Politics come in when we say someone else took over Prabhuapda's movement when its not what he wanted. This is all my point is about. If a person wants to follow antother guru, I dont care. And I have repeatedly said here, I accept there are other gurus on earth.

Have one more post to make too. brb

YL

[YogaLady]

Again only have a few minutes, so will make this point quickly, than have to sign off. But ya know ya can't get rid of me. I'll be back. LOL

hEY, HEY, ME AND my good connection. Check this out:


ISKCON
INTERNATIONAL SOCIETY FOR KRISHNA CONSCIOUSNESS
Founder-Acharya: His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada
Vrindaban July 9th 1977

To All G.B.C., and Temple Presidents

Dear Maharajas and Prabhus,

Please accept my humble obeisances at your feet. Recently when all of the GBC members were with His Divine Grace in Vrndavana, Srila Prabhupada indicated that soon He would appoint some of His senior disciples to act as "ritvik" - representative of the acarya, for the purpose of performing initiations, both first initiation and second initiation. His Divine Grace has so far given a list of eleven disciples who will act in that capacity:

His Holiness Kirtanananda Swami
His Holiness Satsvarupa dasa Gosvami
His Holiness Jayapataka Swami
His Holiness Tamala Krsna Gosvami
His Holiness Hrdayananda Gosvami
His Holiness Bhavananda Gosvami
His Holiness Hamsaduta Swami
His Holiness Ramesvara Swami
His Holiness Harikesa Swami
His Grace Bhagavan dasa Adhikari
His Grace Jayatirtha dasa Adhikari

In the past Temple Presidents have written to Srila Prabhupada recommending a particular devotee's initiation. Now that Srila Prabhupada has named these representatives, Temple Presidents may henceforward send recommendation for first and second initiation to whichever of these eleven representatives are nearest their temple. After considering the recommendation, these representatives may accept the devotee as an initiated disciple of Srila Prabhupada by giving a spiritual name, or in the case of second initiation, by chanting on the Gayatri thread, just as Srila Prabhupada has done. The newly initiated devotees are disciples of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, the above eleven senior devotees acting as His representative. After the Temple President receives a letter from these representatives giving the spiritual name or the thread, he can perform the fire yajna in the temple as was being done before. The name of a newly initiated disciple should be sent by the representative who has acceted him or her to Srila Prabhupada, to be included in His Divine Grace's "Initiated Disciples" book.

Hoping this finds you all well.

Your servant,
Tamala Krsna Gosvami
Secretary to Srila Prabhupada

Approved:
(signed) A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami


YL

[ChiefCowpie]

once again, its a stretch to say there was complete emnity between Srila Prabhupada and his Godbrothers

Dr. OBL Kapoor, a Godbrother was appointed by Srila Prabhupada to be trustee of his Krishna Balarama Temple in Brindavan

Dissapearance Of Dr. O.B.L. Kapoor
http://www.vnn.org/img/wline.gif
BY R. SADHU
http://www.vnn.org/img/wline.gif
http://www.vnn.org/world/WD0106/Dadaji.JPGVRINDAVAN, INDIA, Jun 8 (VNN) — On April 9th of 2001, Dr. O.B.L. Kapoor (Srila Adikeshava Das), a dear disciple of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur and Srila Gauranga Das Babaji, abandoned this mortal world at 3 a.m. in Sri Vrindavan Dham. Most provably to be reunited with them again in the spiritual realm.

Srila Adikeshava Maharaja was born Oudh Bihari Lal Kapoor in 1909. He had strong leanings towards the Advaitic philosophy of Shankara. In August 1931, when he was working as a research scholar in the University of Allahabad, he met his diksha-guru Sri Srimad Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami Prabhupada, who puled him out of his Advaitic moorings and initiated him into Bhakti. His initiation ceremony took place in Sri Radhakunda-the holiest of all places in Vraja. On Srila Bhaktisiddhanta's advice and under his close supervision he wrote a thesis on the Philosophy of Sri Chaitanya. The thesis was approved by the Allahabad University for the degree of Doctor of Philosophy. Srila Adikeshava Maharaja had the unique distinction of being the first Doctor of Philosophy of this prestigious University.

He was very much distressed after the physical disappearance of his beloved diksha-guru . Although he thought that his guru's benedictory hand was still on him, he felt that without his living presence he was like an orphan. While living in Vrindavana Dhama he received the advice of a saint to meet a Siddha-Mahatma. On this saint's own opinion: The only Siddha-saint in Vrindavana at he present. He is most unostentatious and humble. But the spiritual treasure behind his simplicity can hardly escape the eyes of a discerning sadhaka. You must go and see him. After accepting siksha from the distinguished Siddha-saint Sri Gauranga Dasa Babaji of Ramanareti, the blessings of his diksha-guru thus fully manifested. Srila Adikeshava Maharaja was living in Vrindavana since 1967 and wrote books and articles in Hindi on the philosophy of Bhakti and the lives of the Vaishnava saints. Having already accepted the vow of sannyasa-tirtha, i.e., never to leave Sri Vrindavan Dhama, in 1998 he moved to the original ashram in Ramamareti, where he met Srila Gauranga Das Babaji.

Due to his close association with his dear God brother, the world known Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, he was named as one of the trust members on the occasion of the establishment of the first Western temple in the history of Vrindavana - the Krishna-Balarama Mandir of ISKCON. Srila Prabhupada had a long and very friendly relationship with Srila Adikeshava Das, which was established during a period of eight years while he was living at Hallahabad. They used to meet often at the Gaudiya Math temple and in their respective houses. Srila Prabhupada deeply appreciated his articles in English and published several of them in the magazine of his international society. He also recognized Srila Adikeshava Maharaja's dialectic on Gaudiya Vaishnavism and expressed it clearly on a review for his book "The Philosophy and Religion of Sri Chaitanya", written few years before Srila Prabhupada's physical departure:

...the teatrise bears the hall-mark of authentic research. It is, in my opinion, the first scientific delineation of the philosophy of Sri Chaitanya, based primarily on His direct utterances, as contained in Chaitanya Charitamrita and Chaitanya Bhagavata, and supported profusely by reference to the vast literature left by His learned disciples, most of which was written under His express command and on the basis of the guide-lines provide by Him.

The book is written in elegant style. I am sure it will be acclaimed, not only by the Vaishnavas in India, but by the members of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness and the lovers of philosophy and religion all over the world.

After The Philosophy and Religion of Sri Chaitanya, which has been sanctioned by learned devotees as a text book for any serious student on Gaudiya Vaishnava philosophy for all generations to come, Srila Adikeshava Maharaja wrote more than 25 books in Hindi besides dozens of articles dealing with the lives of the Vaishnava saints and the philosophical essence of the Universal Religion of Love of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. His work in Hindi Vrij Ke Bhakta (published in English under the title The Saints of Vraja in an abridged version) has been printed in five editions and is still being acclaimed by the inhabitant all round Vraja.

When the need to support the Gaudiya Vaishnava siddhanta and the primacy of the rasika-acharyas followers of Sri Chaitanya over the conclusions of some saints of other Sampradayas, Srila Adikeshava Maharaja wrote Vrij Ke Rasika Upasana, thus defining for ever the supremacy of the six Gosvamis of Vrindavana as the original holders of the topmost conlusions on Rasa-Tattva.

Srila Adikeshava Maharaja's contribution to the welfare of the young Hare Krishna movement all over the world started to fully manifest after his writings produced in Vrindavana were first published in 1992 in English version. Surely, they occupy a significant place in behalf of the spiritual growth of the followers of Sri Chaitanya's movement. For the first time in the history of the Western Gaudiya Vaishnavism a learned and devoted follower of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, broadly recognized by bonafide saintly devotees, has brought to the attention of the ample Western audience the deep philosophical understanding relating to the mode of worship brought by Mahaprabhu Himself, together with the relevant biographical data-mostly collected personally-of uncompromising Siddha-saints.

Srila Adikeshava Maharaja brought a new, refreshing and unprecedent inner inspiration from contemplating the numerous biographical references given on the lives of the Vaishnava saints from the time of Sri Chaitanya up to recent days. Srila Adikeshava Das contribution in bringing to light such biographies is unique, since becoming absorved in the devotional activities of the saintly devotees of the Lord, invokes our natural faith in the process of Bhakti, since they are the models of devotion and can safely lead us on the path to a complete and pure contemplation of the nectarean pastimes of the Divine Couple Sri Sri Radha-Krishna.

Srila Adikeshava Maharaja's departure was surrounded by all auspicious signs since he was constantly engaged in chanting and hearing about the Lord and His devotees. Barely a week before his departure Srila Adikeshava Maharaja's clear memory and jolly mood had impressed again a devotee who spoke with him over the phone from US. Ovbiously, it is a mistake to think that a Vaishnava dies, since he continues living in sound through his writings. A web site offering his books (www.sadhu.net (http://www.sadhu.net/)) had just being released before the news of his physical departure. Regretfully, Srila Adikeshava Maharaja could not be informed on time about this, however, it is believed that he would be very happy of his valuable devotional contributions being exposed to the Vaishnava community worldwide. We feel thankful and inspired by the exemplary life manifested by Srila Adikeshava Maharaja during his physical permanence amongst us. Nitai-Gaura Haribol!

[ChiefCowpie]

note: the Gaudiya Matha line of disciplic succession is a siksa line and not a diksa line of succession

Prabhupada at the time of his passing, encouraged his disciples to take siksa from his Godbrother and Siksa guru, Srila Sridhara Maharaja
Prabhupada's siksa guru
by Gopakumar das
Posted March 8, 2003

The disciples of Srila Prabhupada were so fortunate to have had him as both their diksa guru and siksa guru. In fact, in his presence there was no need for anything else but his empowered association. Nowadays, the grand disciples of Srila Prabhupada seek inspiration from anywhere they can and they find very good scriptural precedence to do so. Srila Prabhupada himself said:

There is no difference between the shelter giving Supreme Lord and the initiating and instructing spiritual masters. If one foolishly discriminates between them, he commits an offense in the discharge of devotional service (Purport to C.C. Adi 1.47) In the absence of our Gurudeva or in great need for Krishna katha we seek out the association of many devotees, some of which take such a prominent role in our spiritual enlivenment that we bestow on them the title siksa guru. This is quite an honor to give someone since the Chatianya Caritamrta clearly states:

Siksa-guruke ta’ jani krsnera svarupa One should know the instructing spiritual master to be the Personality of Krishna. (Adi 1.47)

It is appropriate to accept such a siksa guru into ones life. In today’s modern devotional community it has even become fashionable to do so. Is there any precedence for this in the manifest lila of Srila Prabhupada? Did Srila Prabhupada himself consider anyone to hold such an exalted position in his life? Interesting quotes exist in this regard that are available to all and known to many. For example Prabhupada writes:

So if you are actually serious to take instructions from a siksa guru, I can refer you to one who is most highly competent of all my god-brothers. This is B.R. Sridhara Maharaja, whom I consider to be even my siksa guru, so what to speak of the benefit that you can have from his association. (January 1 1969 letter to Hrsikesa) Srila Prabhupada, who knew well the exalted position of the title siksa guru (having translated and commented on the above text from C.C.) conferred this title on Srila Sridhara Maharaja. He thought so highly of Srila Sridhara maharaja that he also said:

What Sripad Sridhara Maharaja has directed I take on my head--it is appropriate that I should accept his instruction. (January 29, 1969 letter to Govinda Maharaja) What Govinda Maharaja has said is true. I consider his guru to be my siksa guru. (ISKCON Mayapur Candrodaya Mandira opening ceremony 1974)

Some devotees unfortunately use other statements made by Srila Prabhupada about his godbrothers and Srila Sridhara Maharaja in particular to justify vilifying him or at least ignoring these more significant statements made by Srila Prabhupada about his own siksa guru. It was only by the grand stature of our Srila Prabhupada that he was able to find relative flaws in his siblings. It is not for us to imitate this, unless we are also of that same stature. Prior to the disappearance of Srila Prabhupada, with his godbrothers present, Srila Prabhupada asked forgiveness for such statements of critique. It was Krsnadasa Babaji maharaja who responded that there was no offense. Whatever was done was done for the preaching. We, however, should regard Srila Sridhara Maharaja as a param siksa guru of our lineage in order to honor the relationship between he and our Srila Prabhupada. Our Srila Prabhupada said in the presence of many devotees such as Tamal Krsna Goswami Maharaja and Tripurari Maharaja that for any questions on philosophy we should see his godbrother BR Sridhara maharaja of Navadvipa. Tripurari Maharaja was massaging his feet at this time. Other devotees can verify this:

Prabhupada gave us the instruction that if we have difficulty then we should come to you (Sridhara maharaja), but they have deliberately neglected that instruction of Srila Prabhupada. (8-19-1980 Bhakti Caru Swami) According to Sridhara Swami, who Srila Prabhupada said we should consult about philosophy and practical points... (Giriraja Maharaja to GBC 9-16-1978)

Although this issue has been somewhat addressed and more of less retired by the Governing Body Commission of ISKCON, I am aware of many sincere devotees that are still preaching the message of our Srila Prabhupada who were excommunicated because of their love for and loyalty to the siksa guru of our Srila Prabhupada. When will the GBC call for the cooperation of all disciples of Srila Prabhupada, including those that have been demonized by following these injunctions of their gurudeva? Amongst these devotees are Tripurari Maharaja, Narasingha Maharaja, Visnu Maharaja, Paramadvaita Maharaja and many other devotees. When will they all be reunited at least in the spirit of cooperation? There is much to be gained in correcting our mistakes of the past. By this we can please our Srila Prabhupada who said:

We should not criticize each other, as Vaisnavas, because there is fault in everyone and we may be ourselves subject to criticism. Best thing is to be above suspicion ourselves, then if we see discrepancies and make suggestion the others will automatically respect and take action to rectify the matters. That is cooperation. And we must exist on such cooperation, otherwise the whole thing is doomed if we simply go on fighting over some small thing. So try to organize things and preach together in this spirit, and that will please me very, very much. (Letter to: Madhumangala, Hyderabad November 18, 1972) Gopakumar das

[ChiefCowpie]

Bhaktiraksaka Sridhara Maharaja



http://www.bhajankutir.net/sridhar_1.jpg


This is Sridhar Maharaj. He is also in the line from Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaj, his direct disciple, and, thus, a god-brother of A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami. He was the Founder-Acharya of the Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Math in Nabadwip, West Bengal, India. He was born in 1895 at Hapaniya, Burdwan, West Bengal. He is said to have had inner faith in Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu from his childhood, with a natural attraction and affinity for congregational chanting of the holy names (nama-sankirtan). He was a formidable scholar and renunciant. His first contact with Sri Gaudiya Math was in 1923, and he became a disciple of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati, in 1926. In 1930 his guru gave him sannyasa (renunciation), giving him the name, Bhakti Rakshak [Guardian of Devotion]. He took a prominent part in the founding of, organizing and preaching at many of the Sri Gaudiya Maths all over India. Sridhar Maharaj composed many spiritual prayers and commentaries in Sanskrit and Bengali. He also had a special ability to represent Gaudiya Vaisnava thought in English. In this way, he was the author of numberous books.

Here is another picture of him:

http://www.bhajankutir.net/sridhar.jpg
Here are some of his major writings:

The Golden Volcano of Divine Love is here. (http://www.bhajankutir.net/Golden-Volcano-of-Divine-Love.pdf)

The Prapanna Jivanamritam here. (http://www.bhajankutir.net/Prapanna-Jivanamritam.pdf)

Fools Rush in Where Angels Fear to Tread is here. (http://www.bhajankutir.net/Fools-Rush-In-Where-Angels-Fear-to-Tread.doc)

Sri Guru and His Grace is here. (http://www.bhajankutir.net/Sri-Guru-and-his-Grace.doc)

You can visit a website devoted to him here. (http://www.mandala.com.au/)

[ChiefCowpie]

Here's some stuff Prabhuapda says about Gaudiya Math, and it appears Jagadananda (?) is a branch of that.YLJagadananda is a disciple of Lalita Prasada Thakura who was a son of Bhaktivinoda Thakura and therefore a brother (younger) of Bhaktisidanta Saraswati

as Gopakumar writes in the previous post, there is a contextual argument in the presentation of Prabhupada's comments on the Gaudiya Matha

[YogaLady]

Am back for a moment and see Chief Cowpie is taking over where BBB left off. LOL Only working the other side of the coin. Ahhh my curse. haha

Only a moment, so heres the bottom line.

1. I never said Prabhupada had emnity between himself and his godbrothers. It may appear like that to the untrained eye. Prabhupada LOVED his godbrothers. His complaints had absolutely nothing to do with how 'he' felt toward them. They were in relationship to 'qualification' as guru and if they were following their (his too) guru maharaja. Not if Prabhupada liked them or disliked them. On a personal basis, he was always very loving and kind to them. His instructions therefore, are just that, instructions to 'disciples' of his. Not what went on between himself and his godbrothers. (I dont mean to be redundant, just not sure if I am saying it clearly.)

2. Prabhuapda's instructions to all of his disciples were to avoid all of the Gaudiya Math (regarless of how many posts you put up by 'others' lol that say otherwise, its quotes from him you would need to show me). Again, this is more about spiritual qualification then anything else. He sees they deviated from the instruction of their spiriutal master, which is also his spiriutal master, therefore a relationship I feel we are not meant to get into. This is between him and them BUT he still can care for them while simultaneously give the instruction to avoid them. Besdies, others may not know this, but when he first came here to preach, some of his godbrothers made fun of him for being the "guru to the hippies." They put him down for it. I'll stick with the guru of the hippies who did not look down on us at any point in his life.

He simply did not want Gaudiya Math taking over his movement. No problem with them having a movement of their own.


Saturday --- shopping! Wont be back 'til tonight! See you then.


YL

[sleeping jiva]

It's funny. Yes, as though BBB reincarnated. In my opinion, this is just a way how to distract others in hearing about Prabhupada's message. Please, don't listen to it. Why do you refuse to listen Prabhupada's words? He did this -he came from India and during last 10 years of his life he did a miracle -he attracted so many people into Krishna consciousness, he wrote 50 books, bulit hundreds of temples. Isn't it worthy to hear the complete version of Prabhupada -of this man? Yes, it's true that we are all parcels of Krishna, but some are nto aware of it and therefore they live only for material enjoyment. They tell you things too, but it's a waste of time. Srila Prabhupada's message is simple and perfect: chant the Holy names of Sri Krishna and surrender to Him. He's giving you very complete instruction how you can achieve that. He doesn't care about anything else. He doesn't talk rubbish, he wrote all these books and made all these things just to spread the Holy Names. Those are the proofs. The one, who talks, but doesn't do, what he preach about is not worthy of listening.

[gdkumar]

"It's funny. Yes, as though BBB reincarnated. In my opinion, this is just a way how to distract others in hearing about Prabhupada's message. Please, don't listen to it. Why do you refuse to listen Prabhupada's words? He did this -he came from India and during last 10 years of his life he did a miracle -he attracted so many people into Krishna consciousness, he wrote 50 books, bulit hundreds of temples. Isn't it worthy to hear the complete version of Prabhupada -of this man? Yes, it's true that we are all parcels of Krishna, but some are nto aware of it and therefore they live only for material enjoyment. They tell you things too, but it's a waste of time. Srila Prabhupada's message is simple and perfect: chant the Holy names of Sri Krishna and surrender to Him. He's giving you very complete instruction how you can achieve that. He doesn't care about anything else. He doesn't talk rubbish, he wrote all these books and made all these things just to spread the Holy Names. Those are the proofs. The one, who talks, but doesn't do, what he preach about is not worthy of listening."
...............Sleeping Jiva


Dear Sleeping Jiva,

Being a devotee of Srila Prabhupada and Lord Krishna you are so insolent !
Where is all the humility gone ?

If you have forgotten please read the following again :

NIRBAIRAH SARBABHUTESHU JAH SA MAMETI PANDAVA
.....FROM THE GITA, PART OF THE LAST SHLOKA NO.55
OF THE CHAPTER "VISWARUP DARSHAN YOGA"

However, I still love you.

..............Kumar.

[ChiefCowpie]

there is no difference between what Sridhara Maharaja taught and what Srila Prabhupada taught...Sridhara Maharaja was Srila Prabhupada's siksa guru as well as Srila Prabhupada's final instruction was to go to Sridhara Maharaja for guidance

[ChiefCowpie]

Our Affectionate Guardians
Chapter Four:


Prabhupada's Instructions


http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/srila_sridhara_mj/affection/graphics/ssm_sp_devs.jpg

Shortly before he left us in 1977, Srila Prabhupada advised his disciples to see Srila Sridhara Maharaja if they had questions about philosophical matters. This instruction was accepted by the entire GBC at that time, and from 1977 to 1981 they did approach Srila Sridhara Maharaja with many important questions.

A substantial portion of the GBC Guru Position Paper http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/srila_sridhara_mj/affection/graphics/dot_clear.gifof March 1978, the GBC's official statement published after their initial question-and-answer session with Srila Sridhara Maharaja, is taken directly from Srila Sridhara Maharaja's instructions to the GBC, with a few noteworthy additions and subtractions.

That it was actually the instruction of Srila Prabhupada that we should approach Srila Sridhara Maharaja for spiritual instruction is corroborated by taped statements of Jayapataka Maharaja, Satsvarupa Maharaja, Bhakti Caru Swami, Tamala Krsna Maharaja, and many other GBCs [some of whom later changed their minds regarding the validity of their previous statements], as well as by Tripurari Maharaja who was personally massaging Srila Prabhupada's lotus feet in the midst of several senior devotees when he heard this instruction from Srila Prabhupada. The instruction came in response to a question from Tamala Krsna Maharaja as to whom we could approach for advice after Srila Prabhupada's disappearance. Bhakti Caru Swami related to Srila Sridhara Maharaja on August 19, 1980:

Prabhupada gave us an instruction that if we have any difficulty then we should come to you, but they are deliberately neglecting that instruction of Srila Prabhupada.

In addition, official GBC recognition of this instruction of Srila Prabhupada was given in the GBC's March 1981 publication, "The Descending Process of Selecting a Spiritual Master." Giriraja Maharaja, in a letter of September 16, 1978 addressed to all GBC members, wrote:

According to Sridhara Swami, who Srila Prabhupada said we should consult about philosophy and practical points, there is relative and absolute considerationand we must give Sridhara Swami the highest regard. At one time, Srila Prabhupada said that apart from himself only Sridhara Swami was qualified to write the Bhagavatamhttp://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/srila_sridhara_mj/affection/graphics/dot_clear.gif purports. When we approached Srila Prabhupada before his departure about our writing books after his disappearance, Srila Prabhupada replied, "You can write when you are realized, but now none of you are realized."

So both in terms of relative rank and absolute realization, Sridhara Swami is far beyond any of us. Recently, I have heard statements to the effect that we have now surpassed Sridhara Swami and that we are in the position where we can improve upon Sridhara Swami's conception. In this connection, I am simply reminded of the words of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, svami na mane yei jana vesyara bhitare, tare kariye ganana,http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/srila_sridhara_mj/affection/graphics/dot_clear.gif that we must remain faithful to our Swami [otherwise we will be prostitutes]. (Cc . Antya-lila http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/srila_sridhara_mj/affection/graphics/dot_clear.gif7.115)

In regard to Srila Sridhara Maharaja, Srila Prabhupada's disciples said:

[Prabhupada said] If there was question we should approach you. (Jayapataka Maharaja, tape, March 1978)

We should go to his godbrother Sridhara Maharaja for guidance. So this talk of October 21, 1980 certainly showed the gbc doing this, and Srila Sridhara Maharaja fulfilling this role, as Prabhupada requested he do for the disciples of Srila Prabhupada. (Satsvarupa Maharaja, tape, December 22, 1980)

Srila Prabhupada's leading disciples also greatly appreciated Srila Sridhara Maharaja. A historic series of darsanashttp://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/srila_sridhara_mj/affection/graphics/dot_clear.gif during the Gaura Purnimahttp://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/srila_sridhara_mj/affection/graphics/dot_clear.gif of 1981 were attended every day by many leading iskcon devotees, including Tamala Krsna Maharaja, Ramesvara Maharaja, Kirtanananda Maharaja, Giriraja Swami, Jayadvaita Swami, Bhakti Caru Swami, Atreya Risi Prabhu, and many other GBCs.

Our Guru Maharaja was kind upon us, so you are kind upon us. I find no difference at all in how you are blessing us. When I used to come every year to Mayapur, my whole purpose in coming was fulfilled when I would be in his association. So similarly, now I am feeling that as I have come here, that my purpose is being fulfilled, whenever I am in your association. (Tamala Krsna Maharaja, tape, February 26, 1981)

I take it that Prabhupada is speaking to us through you. (Ramesvara Swami, tape, March 5, 1981)

Additionally, other disciples stated:

Sridhara Maharaja's instructions are nondifferent than Prabhupada's. (Autobiography of a Jewish Yogi, http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/srila_sridhara_mj/affection/graphics/dot_clear.gifAcyutananda dasa)

Prabhupada told me twice, "Everything I know, I learned from Sridhara Maharaja." (Hamsaduta dasa)

Maharaja, time will prove that they [ISKCON leaders] are wrong, and you are right. (Bhakti Caru Swami, tape, February 1982)

Srila Prabhupada himself spoke highly of Srila Sridhara Maharaja:

...who is the most highly competent of all my godbrothers. This is B. R. Sridhara Maharaja, whom I consider to be even my siksahttp://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/srila_sridhara_mj/affection/graphics/dot_clear.gif guru . If you are serious about the advancement of your spiritual life, I advise you to go to Sridhara Maharaja and I will feel that you are safe.You can also make arrangements for your other godbrothers to go there in the future. (SP Ltr. Hrsikesa, January 1, 1969)

What Sripada Sridhara Maharaja has directed, I take it on my head.It is appropriate that I should accept his direction. (SP Ltr. Govinda Mj, 12-9-69)

What Govinda Maharaja has said is true. I consider his guru as my siksa guru . (SP, ISKCON Mayapur Candrodaya Mandira opening ceremony 1974)

Those who are intelligent, they are making something, Sridhara Maharaja and others. (SP Conversation, Allahabad, January 13, 1977) [1]

One of my important godbrothers [Sridhara Maharaja] says. He's sincere. He says, "The prediction of Caitanya-caritamrta, prthivite ache yata nagaradi-grama http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/srila_sridhara_mj/affection/graphics/dot_clear.gifSo you have done it." (SP LA Morning Walk, December 11, 1973 & SP Ltr. Bon Maharaja, July 7, 1975) [2]

Our relationship is very intimate. After the breakdown of the Gaudiya Matha I wanted to organize another organization making Sridhara Maharaja as the head. (SP Conversation, March 17, 1973) [3]

Over the years, various facts have mysteriously changed, according to the political climate. Statements included in this book are substantiated with hard copy and tape recordings. Understandably, one may change his opinion regarding certain things, but this does not change the essential facts, the actual truth, satyam param dhimahi .

[ChiefCowpie]

Letter to Rupanuga

Despite Srila Prabhupada's final and conclusive statements regarding Srila Sridhara Maharaja, some take Srila Prabhupada's letter to Rupanuga in 1974 as the conclusive statement about Srila Sridhara Maharaja. An excerpt of the letter follows:

My dear Rupanuga Maharaja,

Please accept my blessings. I beg to acknowledge receipt of your letter of April 17, from Washington D.C. and I have very carefully noted the contents.

You are right about Sridhara Maharaja's genuineness. But in my opinion he is the best of the lot. He is my old friend, at least he executes the regulative principles of devotional service. I do not wish to discuss about activities of my godbrothers but it is a fact they have no life for preaching work. All are satisfied with a place for residence in the name of a temple, they engage disciples to get foodstuff by transcendental devices and eat and sleep. They have no idea or brain how to broadcast the cult of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. My Guru Maharaja used to lament many times for this reason and he thought if one man at least had understood the principle of preaching then his mission would achieve success. In the latter days of my Guru Maharaja, he was very disgusted. Actually, he left this world earlier, otherwise he would have continued to live for more years. Still he requested his disciples to form a strong governing body for preaching the cult of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. He never recommended anyone to be acaryahttp://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/srila_sridhara_mj/affection/graphics/dot_clear.gif of the Gaudiya Matha. But Sridhara Maharaja is responsible for disobeying this order of Guru Maharaja, and he and others who are already dead, unnecessarily thought that there must be one acarya . http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/srila_sridhara_mj/affection/graphics/dot_clear.gifIf Guru Maharaja could have seen someone who was qualified at that time to be acaryahttp://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/srila_sridhara_mj/affection/graphics/dot_clear.gif he would have mentioned. Because on the night before he passed away he talked of so many things, but never mentioned an acarya . http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/srila_sridhara_mj/affection/graphics/dot_clear.gifHis idea was acarya was not to be nominated amongst the governing body. He said openly you make a GBC and conduct the mission. So his idea was that a self-effulgent acaryahttp://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/srila_sridhara_mj/affection/graphics/dot_clear.gif would be automatically selected from amongst the successful members of the GBC. So Sridhara Maharaja and his two associate gentlemen unauthorizedly selected one acaryahttp://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/srila_sridhara_mj/affection/graphics/dot_clear.gif and later it proved a failure. The result is now everyone is claiming to be acaryahttp://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/srila_sridhara_mj/affection/graphics/dot_clear.gif even though they may be kanistha-adhikarihttp://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/srila_sridhara_mj/affection/graphics/dot_clear.gif with no ability to preach. In some of the camps, the acaryahttp://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/srila_sridhara_mj/affection/graphics/dot_clear.gif is being changed three times a year. Therefore we may not commit the same mistake in our ISKCON camp. Actually amongst my godbrothers no one is qualified to become acarya .http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/srila_sridhara_mj/affection/graphics/dot_clear.gif So it is better not to mix with my godbrothers very intimately because instead of inspiring our students and disciples they may sometimes pollute them. This attempt was made previously by them, especially [names three sannyasihttp://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/srila_sridhara_mj/affection/graphics/dot_clear.gif godbrothers] but somehow or other I saved the situation. This is going on. We shall be very careful about them and not mix with them. This is my instruction to you all. They cannot help us in our movement, but they are very competent to harm our natural progress. So we must be very careful about them.

When there is a conflict between opposing statements, they must be reconciled. Rupa Goswami has written:

virodho vakyayor yatra napramayam tad isyate
yathaviruddhata ca syat tatharthah kalpyate tayoh


"When two scriptural statements contradict each other, one is not taken as inauthentic. One should give the meaning in such a way that the contradiction is removed." ( Laghu-bhag.http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/srila_sridhara_mj/affection/graphics/dot_clear.gif 1.212)

The previously mentioned personal instruction of Srila Prabhupada to approach Srila Sridhara Maharaja for philosophy was given three years after the Rupanuga letter was written. This letter of Srila Prabhupada must be harmonized with the other statements by Srila Prabhupada in order to get an accurate picture of Srila Prabhupada's feelings about Srila Sridhara Maharaja. When seen in the light of proper historical perspective, the circumstantial nature of these remarks can be realized because the subsequent friendly and intimate dealings between Srila Prabhupada and Srila Sridhara Maharaja did not change in the slightest even after Srila Prabhupada made such remarks. Further, Srila Prabhupada and Srila Sridhara Maharaja lived together harmonously during the majority of the problems of the Gaudiya Matha mentioned in the Rupanuga letter, [4] and subsequent to this Srila Prabhupada requested Srila Sridhara Maharaja to be the president of ISKCON:

Our relationship is very intimate. After the breakdown of the Gaudiya Matha, I wanted to organize another organization, making Sridhara Maharaja the head. (March 1973) [5]

Unfortunately, taking the Rupanuga letter out of its true historical context, a handful of leaders have attempted to utilize it in order to discredit the deep and intimate relationship between Srila Sridhara Maharaja and Srila Prabhupada. Some of these leaders are fully aware of this deep relationship. Neither have we seen the letter written to Srila Prabhupada that elicited this response. A careful study of Prabhupada's many letters shows that quite often his letters are direct responses to particular circumstances and may even contradict other instructions in different situations.

According to Srila Sridhara Maharaja, a GBC was formed by the trustees of the Gaudiya Matha ten days after the disappearance of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, although it did not remain intact for long. Membership of the GBC was declined by Srila Sridhara Maharaja. The GBC elected an acaryahttp://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/srila_sridhara_mj/affection/graphics/dot_clear.gif and Srila Sridhara Maharaja helped advise the GBC when requested by them.

The War Is Over

In spite of Srila Prabhupada's sometimes strong criticism of his godbrothers, he also wrote positively about them:

Even amongst our godbrothers we have misunderstanding, but none of us is astray from the service of Krsna. My Guru Maharaja ordered us to execute his mission combinedly. Unfortunately, we are now separated. But none of us have stopped preaching Krsna consciousness. Even there was misunderstanding amongst the godbrothers of my Guru Maharaja, none of them deviated from the transcendental loving service of Krsna. (SP Ltr. Brahmananda, November 18, 1967)

The disciples of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Goswami are all godbrothers, and although there are some differences of opinion and we are not acting conjointly, every one of us is spreading this Krsna consciousness movement according to his capacity and producing many disciples to spread it all over the world. ( Bhag. 4.28.31)

So far as your question about controversy amongst the disciples of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Goswami Maharaja, that is a fact. But this controversy is not material. Just like in a national program, different political parties are sometimes in conflict and make propaganda against each other, but their central point is always service to the country. Similarly, amongst the disciples of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati there may be some controversy, but the central point is how to preach the mission of His Divine Grace. (SP Ltr. Mandali Bhadra, July 28, 1969)

The above letter to Brahmananda was written early on, subsequent to which there were many problems with Srila Prabhupada's godbrothers. The above purport, however, was written quite a bit later.

Srila Prabhupada also said, "The war is over now," and he created the Bhaktivedanta Swami Charity Trust for developing Gauda-mandala-bhumi and encouraging better relations and cooperation between ISKCON and Srila Prabhupada's godbrothers. Specifically, Srila Prabhupada instructed that this trust construct a kirtanahttp://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/srila_sridhara_mj/affection/graphics/dot_clear.gif hall at Srila Sridhara Maharaja's Matha and also one at the birthplace of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Yoga-pitha. [6]

[ChiefCowpie]

When we examine the activities of these two Vaisnavas, we see the real intentions of these pure devotees of the Lord, fully absorbed in devotional service. One must examine all the facts impartially, not just make a superficial estimation based on one letter and general statements and pass a decree for all time. The mistakes made by the leaders of ISKCON were much more grave than the alleged mistakes of Srila Sridhara Maharaja [supporting an acaryahttp://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/srila_sridhara_mj/affection/graphics/dot_clear.gif who later fell down]. Within ISKCON the many mistakes of the leaders have been whitewashed, whereas Srila Sridhara Maharaja to this day is maligned. In light of an unbiased look at Srila Prabhupada's letters, conversations, and other instructions, it can be concluded that Srila Prabhupada did not discourage his disciples from receiving instruction (siksahttp://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/srila_sridhara_mj/affection/graphics/dot_clear.gif) from Srila Sridhara Maharaja; on the contrary, he encouraged it. Similarly, an unbiased look at the siksahttp://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/srila_sridhara_mj/affection/graphics/dot_clear.gif of Srila Sridhara Maharaja will show that his advice was perfect. When told of Srila Prabhupada's criticism of himself in the Rupanuga letter, Srila Sridhara Maharaja replied with a chuckle, "Just see the preaching of Swami Maharaja, he has not even spared me, his intimate friend!"

Notes:
[1] 770113RC.ALL
[2] 731211M2.LA in ref to SP Ltr Bon Mj July 7, 1975 & 760122MW.MAY
[3] 730317RC.MAY
[4] Lilamrta, http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/srila_sridhara_mj/affection/graphics/dot_clear.gifVol. 1, p. 100
[5] 730317RC.MAY
[6] 771030R2.VRN & 771106RC.VRN

[sleeping jiva]

Everything you need is in Prabupada's books. He didn't disappear, he is with us in form of his books. Haribol, dear jivas!

[Sebbi]

Nietzche was a devotee of Krishna. He said it in one of his books: "If I believed in God, he would have to dance."
lol

There are many gods that dance, to say that yours is the only one (other than to say that the others are actually the same one but represented differently) would be ignorance.

To be frank I think Nietzche was saying that if there was a god (that's IF) then it would have to be one that brings fun. I find it hard to believe that Nietzche was someone who chanted Hare Krishna.

Blessings

Sebbi

[sleeping jiva]

There is only one God, he has many incarnations. Nietzche didn't chant Hare Krishna but he got there intelectually, that's why he became frustrated. Indeed if you read Thus Spoke Zarathustra it is very similar to Prabhupada's books. We should not see the forms -that's what he's saying. Nietzche said: "I could be the Budha of Europe." Lord Budha, according to Vedic scriptures was Krishna himself, who came into this world in order to lure all mayavadis, impersonalists and stop animal slaughter. It was a little game of Lord Krishna. Nietzche similary played this game, but actually he was a devotee of Krishna.

Krishna is God, who is fun -trust me. lol. You can read that in a book called Krishna by Srila Prabhupada.


Check out this article:


Nietzsche - additional info

Bh. Tod Desmond

Nietzsche was in fact a devotee of Krsna. He once said "I could be the Buddha of Europe." Like Buddha, Nietzsche too merely pretended to be an atheist. He lied for Krsna. In the second to last section of Beyond Good and Evil, #295, Nietzsche describes his secret God, code named Dionysus, as the pied piper in everyone's heart, the philosopher great with a disciplic succession. This is Krsna, about whom Nietzsche was not only well aware, but quite in love with.

Nietzsche was a devotee of Krsna using in the West the same strategy Buddha used in the East. (Srimad Bhagavatam 1.3.24: "Then, in the beginning of Kali-yuga, the Lord will appear as Lord Buddha, the son of Anjana, in the province of Gaya, just for the purpose of deluding those who are envious of the faithful theist.") In Beyond Good and Evil #40 he said, "Whatever is profound loves masks; ... Might nothing less than the opposite be the proper disguise for the shame of a god?"

In the Gay Science #106 he had a disciple say to his master: "But I believe in your cause and consider it so strong that I shall say everything, everything that I still have in my mind against it."

The innovator laughed in his heart and wagged a finger at him. "This kind of discipleship," he said, "is best; but it is also the most dangerous, and not every kind of doctrine can endure it."

Just two aphorisms later, at a very significant #108, Nietzsche dropped his most famous line:

After Buddha was dead, his shadow was still shown for centuries in a cave - a tremendous, gruesome shadow. God is dead; but given the ways of men, there may still be caves for thousands of years in which his shadow will be shown.

It was no accident that Nietzsche said God is dead and combined that statement with Buddha and the most sacred Vedic number, 108. Nietzsche knew exactly what Buddha did, and he was following the same strategy, as evidence by GS #106 cited above. About God's shadow being in a cave and Buddha's, let us hear what else Nietzsche said about caves. "Does not one write books precisely to conceal what one harbors? Indeed, he will doubt... whether behind every one of his caves there is not, must not be, another deeper cave. ... Every philosophy also conceals a philosophy; every opinion is also a hideout, every word also a mask. (Beyond Good and Evil #289)

This recalls us to the early quote, BGE #40, when Nietzsche said profound things love masks, and precisely the opposite would be the mask of a god. Did Nietzsche really play the Buddha game? He said himself, "I could become the Buddha of Europe." (KSA 10, 4[2]) He also said, "The strange family resemblance of all Indian, Greek, and German philosophizing is explained easily enough, where there is affinity of languages, it cannot fail, ... everything is prepared at the outset for a similar development and sequence of philosophical systems. (BGE#20) In the second to last section of Beyond Good and Evil, #295, in which Nietzsche plainly describes his God, and plainly admits he is using a secret code name, Dionysus, a.k.a Krsna:

The genius of the heart, as that great concealed one possesses it, the tempter god and born pied piper of consciences whose voice knows how to descend into the netherworld of every soul, ... Of whom am I speaking to you? ... no less a one than the god Dionysus, that great ambiguous one and tempter god to whom I once offered, as you know, in all secrecy and reverence, my first-born ... for I have found no one who understood what I was doing then.

Meanwhile I have learned much, all too much, more about the philosophy of this god, and, as I said, from mouth to mouth - I, the last great disciple and initiate of the god Dionysus - and I suppose I might begin at long last to offer you, my friends, a few tastes of this philosophy, insofar as it is permitted me? In an undertone, as is fair, for it concerns much that is secret, new, strange, odd, uncanny.

Even that Dionysus is a philosopher, and that gods, too, thus do philosophy, seems to me to be a novelty that is far from innocuous and might arouse suspicion precisely among philosophers. ... For today, as I have been told, you no longer like to believe in God and gods. Perhaps I shall also have to carry frankness further in my tale than will always be pleasing to the strict habit of your ears? Certainly the god in question went further, very much further, in dialogues of this sort and was always many steps ahead of me."

Nietzsche's God, code named Dionysus, is a genius in the heart of every soul, a pied piper (or flute player), and a master at the art of philosophical dialogue, a philosophy, moreover, that is handed down from master to disciple "from mouth to mouth." Other than Socrates (whom some people claim Nietzsche is secretly describing), the only other philosophical dialogues worthy of discussing are the Vedas. And so we turn to the most famous of all, the Bhagavad-gita, in which Krsna affirms: "I am seated in everyone's heart, and from Me come remembrance, knowledge and forgetfulness. By all the Vedas am I to be known; indeed I am the compiler of Vedanta, and I am the knower of the Vedas."

Nietzsche also said "I could only believe in a God who could dance." This too is Krsna. Nietzsche was clearly a devotee of Krsna, the king of the atheists was in fact a great devotee of God. If we can prove this to people we will win a great victory for Lord Krsna and all his devotees.

If anyone wants more information I have plenty of quotes to back up the fact that Nietzsche was indeed a devotee of Krsna playing the Buddha pastime. For example, in Thus Spoke Zarathustra, the "old Pope" told Zarathustra, "You are more pious than you know. Some god in you must have converted you to your godlessness." In the Dawn #96 Nietzsche said: "However much progress Europe may have made in other respects, in religious matters it has not you attained to the free-minded naivete of the ancient Brahmins: a sign that there was more thinking, and that more pleasure in thinking was customarily inherited, four thousand years ago in India than is the case today." In the Dawn #113 he said, "The Brahmins give expression to this ... I believe in this whole species of inner experience we are now incompetent novices groping after the solution of riddles: they knew more about these infamous refinements of self-enjoyment 4,000 years ago." Using Sanskrit terms in this next aphorism, Nietzsche admits he is trying to be hard to understand, though the fact that he says his soul "flows like the Ganges" is a big clue:

"It is hard to be understood, especially when one thinks and lives gangasrotagati [as the current of the Ganges flows] among men who think and live differently - namely, kurmagati [as the tortoise moves], or at best 'the way frogs walk,' mandukagati. (I obviously do everything to be 'hard to understand' my self!) - and one should be cordially grateful for the good will to some subtlety of interpretation. (Beyond Good and Evil #27)

Nietzsche on God

Synthesis of Science and Religion
Critical Essays and Dialogues
Papers presented at the World Congress for the Synthesis of Science and
Religion, Jan. 9-12, 1986, Bombay


(c) 1987 Bhaktivedanta Institute

Section Seven, Essay three, p.398:
William Deadwyler (Ravindra Svarupa Dasa):

...sometimes critics of some established notion of divinity should be understood as not denying God or the divine as such but merely a particular, faulty conception of God. I agree. Socrates, for instance, was accused of atheism. But his "atheism" was really a symptom of his higher realization of God. People sometimes mistakenly think even of themselves as atheists when at heart they are not. People have told me "I don't believe in God", and when they explained to me what they meant by "God", I could truthfully say to them "Well, I don't believe in the same God you don't believe in."

Nietzsche, the great evangelist of the dead God, was not, in my understanding, a true atheist. For he once remarked, "I should be able to believe in a God who could dance". As a believer in Krishna, who is known as Nataraja, the great dancer, I see that Nietzsche's faith was unfulfilled and frustrated by the idea of divinity available to him. But unfulfilled faith is not atheism.

[ChiefCowpie]

amused at the linkage between Dionysius, a wild psychedelic ecstatic tantric cult of ancient europe and Krishna bhakti...the bauls of bengal also made the same connection...it should be noted though that S. P. had little tolerance for left handed paths although many Krishna Bhakti cults have tantricism...revisionism knows no bounds

sleeping jiva, for one who claims everything is in srila prabhupada's books, you have sure pulled in one far deep in left field...far away from prabhupada's books

anyways, as a Dionysian and Baul, i encourage such linkage as steps in the discovery of the universality of all paths

ma ma ma ma ma ma ma ma ma ma ma ma ma ma ma ma

[ChiefCowpie]

As a believer in Krishna, who is known as Nataraja, the great dancer,
it is Shiva who is known as Nataraja...similarities between Saivites and Dionystic cults in ecstatic drug induced states, tantric practices...

Om namah Shivaya

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

Wow. I leave for a couple of days and you guys go post happy! lol. I did read almost all of the posts from this weekend. They were very interesting...though I do not understand all of them, they are very interesting...I am still learning.

Btw, of course God can dance! God is loving and forgiving and joyous...I do not really like the idea that God punishes (another misconception of Christian religion right there...)...because that's not the way it is...and that is what turns people away. The idea that they are damned...but they're not....hmmm....just a thought, probably way off topic...

OH! I remember the other think I wanted to say! Remember when I told you about taking the SATs two weeks ago? I got the scores back! My score when up 70 points from 1140 to 1210! Praise Lord Jesus! Praise Sri Krsna! I could just dance! (Actually I was in school when I found it...and I did dance...the looks I got were very funny!)....I just felt like sharing...it really make my day to reach beyond my goal (which was 1200) :) :)

Talk to you all later! Haribol! (Now that I know what that means...thanks SleepingJiva!)

*Peace and Love*
Nicole

[gdkumar]

Dear SvgGrdnBeauty,

It is so nice to have you back here.

You are like a soothing gentle breeze. Probably you will save this thread from death caused by asphyxia.

With love.......Kumar.

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

Dear SvgGrdnBeauty,

It is so nice to have you back here.

You are like a soothing gentle breeze. Probably you will save this thread from death caused by asphyxia.

With love.......Kumar.
Awww...you are so sweet! Thankies!

Oooh! Guess what?! I got my Bhagavad-gita As It Is book! I have to go pick it up from the library!

Well...I've got to study for my English final and I have marching band tonight...but I'll talk to you all later!

Haribol!
*Peace and Love*
Nicole

[YogaLady]

Letter to Rupanuga

Despite Srila Prabhupada's final and conclusive statements regarding Srila Sridhara Maharaja, some take Srila Prabhupada's letter to Rupanuga in 1974 as the conclusive statement about Srila Sridhara Maharaja. An excerpt of the letter follows:

Same letter, different meaning, as explained by Prabhupada's initiated disciples. Only his initiated disciples who are still following him can really understand his meaning. One must first give up meat eating, fale ego, and surrender to the guru before they properly understand an instruction this deep. So I emailed one of them and below I put the clearer explanation accordingly. (By the way, is chief cowpie an initiated disciple? LOL I know he's not.)

I have left the exact same letter, but put the emphasis on what Prabhupada actually meant, according to what HIS disciples have told me, and not according to the Gaudiya Math links you kept putting in, the very people he says NOT to go to for information, advice, or anything at all. I dont go to anyone but Prabhuapda. If you want to, thats fine, but to try to say they are one and the same, no. Prabhupada repeadtly said "stay away from my Gaudiya Math godbrothers."

I can only do one letter at a atime, and if needed and this is not enough, I'll come back and get to the rest of your letters later. I just dont have as much time to waste on the computer as you do, but why dont you just come out and claim to be more of a follower of the Gaudiya Math than of Prabhupada? I have no problem with an honest conviction. I have a problem trying to make the one the same as the other. Or maybe come out and say you are just doing it for the fun of it, and take pleasure in getting peoples goats. <G> Ya know, the humble posiiton would'nt hurt. I mean, do ya really think Prabhupada changed his mind after all those years of saying "avoid them" and never once contradicted himself, or else do ya think he's lying and the Gaudiya Math links are the truth tellers? :) Here's the letter you so kindly offered up.


My dear Rupanuga Maharaja,

Please accept my blessings. I beg to acknowledge receipt of your letter of April 17, from Washington D.C. and I have very carefully noted the contents.

You are right about Sridhara Maharaja's genuineness. But in my opinion he is the best of the lot. He is my old friend, at least he executes the regulative principles of devotional service. I do not wish to discuss about activities of my godbrothers but it is a fact they have no life for preaching work. All are satisfied with a place for residence in the name of a temple, they engage disciples to get foodstuff by transcendental devices and eat and sleep. They have no idea or brain how to broadcast the cult of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. My Guru Maharaja used to lament many times for this reason and he thought if one man [/U]at least had understood the principle of preaching then his mission would achieve success. In the latter days of my Guru Maharaja, he was very disgusted. Actually, he left this world earlier, otherwise he would have continued to live for more years. Still he requested his disciples to form a strong governing body for preaching the cult of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. He never recommended anyone to be acarya of the Gaudiya Matha. But Sridhara Maharaja is responsible for disobeying this order of Guru Maharaja, and he and others who are already dead, unnecessarily thought that there must be one acarya . If Guru Maharaja could have seen someone who was qualified at that time to be acarya he would have mentioned. Because on the night before he passed away he talked of so many things, but never mentioned an acarya . His idea was acarya was not to be nominated amongst the governing body. He said openly you make a GBC and conduct the mission. So his idea was that a self-effulgent acarya would be automatically selected from amongst the successful members of the GBC. So Sridhara Maharaja and his two associate gentlemen unauthorizedly selected one acarya and later it proved a failure. The result is now everyone is claiming to be acarya even though they may be kanistha-adhikari with no ability to preach. In some of the camps, the acaryais being changed three times a year. Therefore we may not commit the same mistake in our ISKCON camp. Actually amongst my godbrothers [I]no one is qualified to become acarya . So it is better not to mix with my godbrothers very intimately because instead of inspiiring our students and disciples they may sometimes pollute them. This attempt was made previously by them, especially Madhava Maharaja and Tirtha Maharaja and Bon Maharaja but somehow or other I saved the situation. This is going on. We shall be very careful about them and not mix with them. This is my instruction to you all. They cannot help us in our movement, but they are very competent to harm our natural progress. So we must be very careful about them."

(end of letter)


The "self effulgent" guru who manifested was Prabhupada. HE created ISKCON. No one wanted us americans. You think you are loyal to them but they would have come saved your sorry butt? lol No way. What did his godbrothers think about iskcon & Prabhupada?

In Mayapura India, the devotees once were all going to Sridhara Swami's math. Himavati went and some others. She discovered at Sridhara's Gaudiya Math that some of their leaders were snickering and saying Prabhupada can only make "Western mleccha Hippies" into devotees, and not brahmanas from India. Himavati challenged them on this issue, and they insulted her, and they said Prabhupada is only "the guru for the hippies."

Himavati returned back the river crying and reported all this to Srila Prabhupada. He said that we should not go to any of their temples. Srila Prabhupada didn't say don't go to any of their ashrams except for Sridhara Swami's or Narayana Maharaja's. His instructions were clear - don't go to any of them.

Another example: In Mayapura India, Gaudiya Math, Madhava Maharaja, he came over and shouted at Srila Prabhupada, pointed in his face with his finger quite rudely -- to stop using the title "Prabhupada." Devotees were worried and alarmed at this somewhat violent outburst. Then Prabhupada told them (approximate quote), "Post a guard at my door, my Godbrothers might try to harm me." Then some of them came and dug up some of the ISKCON foundation site, putting garbage there.

P.S. I noticed that Gaudiya Math link the letter was taken from left out part of Prabhupada's letter that implicated them. Its located at the end where Prabhuapada's original letter says: " This attempt was made previously by them, especially Madhava Maharaja and Tirtha Maharaja and Bon Maharaja. Whereas that link says: "[names three godbrothers]." Hmmmmmmm

[YogaLady]

Wow. I leave for a couple of days and you guys go post happy! lol. I did read almost all of the posts from this weekend. They were very interesting...though I do not understand all of them, they are very interesting...I am still learning.

Btw, of course God can dance! God is loving and forgiving and joyous...I do not really like the idea that God punishes (another misconception of Christian religion right there...)...because that's not the way it is...and that is what turns people away. The idea that they are damned...but they're not....hmmm....just a thought, probably way off topic...

OH! I remember the other think I wanted to say! Remember when I told you about taking the SATs two weeks ago? I got the scores back! My score when up 70 points from 1140 to 1210! Praise Lord Jesus! Praise Sri Krsna! I could just dance! (Actually I was in school when I found it...and I did dance...the looks I got were very funny!)....I just felt like sharing...it really make my day to reach beyond my goal (which was 1200) :) :)

Talk to you all later! Haribol! (Now that I know what that means...thanks SleepingJiva!)

*Peace and Love*
Nicole

Must go after doing a long post, but had to stop and say CONGRATULATIONS on your SAT's!!! And also on your getting your Gita in the mail! Things will be going good for you. :)

Yes, God dances. :) Vaisnava's (devotees of Krishna) know Him for the RasaLila Dance.

Take care.

YL

[sleeping jiva]

oh thanks, Yoga lady for clearing this up. Well, I would like to point at the fact that we are trying to explain our philosophy to other people and those who oppose us they use not very honest way, how to contradict us. Just look at it from this angle. They digging up all these lies, but they are not able to put any real argument why our philosophy shouldn't work. No, at first we have to prove that Prabhupada was fallen, then we will listen to you. It's like :"Hey, everybody must be like me!". What is the point in slendering? They're just confusing other people with their belief. As Srila Prabhupada said, faith is not sufficient, because you can change faith several time during your lifetime. Please, if you wanna oppose, ask reasonable questions. We are saying: "Lord is one! Why to blame others for glorifying Him in a different way?" and you are saying: "You are not tolerant. Why don't you tolerate that there are many gods?" See, you're the ones, who are not tolerant, because you see only forms. that is the origin of confusion to see things as separated. We should not allow this confusion be spred. Thank you.

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

Must go after doing a long post, but had to stop and say CONGRATULATIONS on your SAT's!!! And also on your getting your Gita in the mail! Things will be going good for you. :)

Yes, God dances. :) Vaisnava's (devotees of Krishna) know Him for the RasaLila Dance.

Take care.

YL
Thank you very much. :) Ahh...I knew He danced! hehehehe

[YogaLady]

I saw also a post back there somewhere about siksa (siksha or shiksha) guru i.e. instructing guru, that Prabhupada said to accept Sridhara Swami as siksa guru. It also said in one of those Gaudiya Math articles that we are "villifying" the Gaudiya Math "guru's" when instead we should be accepting them as our siksa gurus. They are good at word jugglery, I'll tell you that much! No one is "villifying" any of them. What we have pointed out only, ONLY, has had to do with who fits the qualificaiton of guru. The anger is only coming from them, because they get envious Prabhuapda is not theirs, and that we stick with him too. I have read some very mean things these "followers of Prabhupada" have said about him. Yet if we say boo, we are "villifying." Better to get a clear understanding of what Prabhupada meant with this thing of "Sridhara as siksa guru."

Often the following has been quoted to show that Srila Prabhupada approved and supported Sridhara Swami, even the acceptance of him as Prabhupada's siksa guru.

"I can refer you to one who is most highly competent of all my god-brothers. This is B.R. Sridhara Maharaja, whom I consider to be even my siksa guru, so what to speak of the benefit that you can have from his association." Srila Prabhupada letter to Hrsikesa January 9, 1969

This is only a partial quote. It also does not reveal the specific situation at hand. We can't tell by this, what was going on. So here it is.

Devotees, Hrisikesa and Acutyananda, ran run off to (Gaudiya Math) Bon Maharaja's place to learn from him. They wanted to permanently camp there and be his (siksa) disciples. At this point they all ready had decided they were not going to follow Prabhupada's instructions (go to Germany). Instead they wanted to take a Siksa Guru from the Gaudiya Matha in India. Prabhupada's letter was specific to this situation and not blanket approval. It was more along the lines of "damage control" for the soul of these two disciple. Bon Maharaja had even been rejected by Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaja, so Prabhupada was trying to save them by drawing them away from him.

Lets look at all of that letter from Prabhupada:

"I suspect that you have interest in taking instruction from some siksa guru, but in this connection, because you are my disciple and I think, a sincere soul, it is my duty to refer you to someone who is competent to act as siksa guru. This Bon Maharaja, perhaps you do not know, has been rejected by Guru Maharaja. So I cannot recommend him as siksa guru. I think that he has no actual spiritual asset. For spiritual advancement of life, we must go to one who is actually practising spiritual life; not to some head of a mundane institution, not to one who has offended his Spiritual Master in so many ways. I do not wish to go into all details here, but I must inform you that this Bon Maharaja may be considered as a black snake, and at the time of His Disappearance, my Guru Maharaja did not even wish to have him in His presence due to the character of this Bon Maharaja. So if you are actually serious to take instructions from a siksa guru, I can refer you to one who is most highly competent of all my god-brothers. This is B.R. Sridhara Maharaja, whom I consider to be even my siksa guru, so what to speak of the benefit that you can have from his association. He is living in Navadvipa, and if you like, I can give you letter of introduction as well as I will send him letter to allow you to stay there with him. So if you and Acyutananda are not lost to the poison of Bon Maharaja, and are still serious about advancement of your spiritual life, I will advise you to go to Sridhara Maharaja. Or else I do not know what will save you. So my advice to you both is that you immediately leave the unhealthy and envious association of Bon Maharaja and either proceed to Germany as I have instructed you, or at least go to someone who will be competent to act as sisksha guru. This is Sridhara Maharaja.

When I was in India, Acyutananda, Ramanuga, and myself, with others, lived with Sridhara Maharaja, so Acyutananda knows him very well. He spared a big house for us and if both of you go there now, it will be very good for your spiritual benefit. Then I will feel that you are safe. Besides that, if you wish to live in India, you can make arrangements for this house so that other of your god-brothers may go there in the future. Just on the other side of the Ganges there is Mayapur, and you can occasionally or every week go there and learn Bengali and Sanskrit if it is your desire. All facilities are there. Sridhara Maharaja is a very good English scholar and he can talk with you very nicely in English. The room in Vrindaban where you are residing may also be kept so that it may be utilized when necessary. But so far as I am concerned, I am becoming older and older, and my life may be finished at any moment. As I have got my permanent residence in America, it is indication of Krishna that I shall live here to organize this movement to the best possible extent. If I sometimes go out of this country, I will go to Europe only and again come back. So, practically I have decided not to go to India anymore. In case I suddenly meet my death, then I shall make my will how to deal with my body later on.

So don't be carried away by whims. It is my duty to save you. Leave Vrindaban, live peacefully with Sridhara Maharaja, if you do not wish to go to Germany, and thereby you will be spiritually enlightened. Please inform me immediately regarding what you have decided."

(end of siksa letter)

That was more of the details regarding what was the purpose of that specialized letter on this topic of siksa.

Furthermore, regarding Prabhupada accepting Sridhara Maharaja as his own siksa guru, a few simple points to consider ---

First, please to remember Prabhupada can be exceptionally humble! He even asked one of his American disciples to pray to Krishna for him.

Secondly, while Prabhupada is referring to Sridhara Maharaja as his siksa guru, basically any devotee who tells anyone about Krishna becomes siksa, at least for that moment. That does not put devotees on any exalted platform of comparison. It's not about us, its about the definition of siksa.

(Hey, you're all my siksa gurus! :) )

Another importance often ignored by Gaudiya Math godbrothers it that while referring to Sridhara Maharaja as his siksa guru, Prabhupada simultaneously said this same godbrother was responsible for tearing apart the Gaudiya Math, as well as disobeying His Guru Maharaja, and having no interest in preaching.

And the famous 'siksa' letter -- was written in 1969 before what happened at the Mayapur Festival of in 1972, described in the previous post of mine. Although not all of Srila Prabhupada's godbrothers showed up for that first Mayapur festival of 72, many of them did. A meeting was arranged in the bamboo cottage between Prabhupada and his Mayapur (Tirtha Maharaja's group) godbrothers. They came in a rage and Srila Prabhupada sat on the floor at equal level with them. They accused Prabhupada of starting His own movement "without Authority of the Gaudiya Math."

They stated that this is a "great offense," and that Srila Prabhupada
must turn over all his disciples and world wide assets (such as vehicles and temples) to them. Then he can be forgiven for his "offenses."

Additionally, they stated that he "unauthorizedly" allows women and
men to dance together, has created brahmacarini's (the female version of brahmacari's or monks), allows sacred bead bags to be seen in public, gives Brahmin initiation for women, etc.

Srila Prabhupada made an offer to them. He invited them to come to America with him and preach in various centers. He offered to make them like GBC and manage areas of Iskcon. They were insulted by this offer and stormed out.

Some point out that not all of Prabhupada's godbrothers were present, and not all of Prabhupada's godbrother's said such things - yet, even Prabhupada's friend did not speak out or verbalized "whats going on here is wrong."

Finally, while Srila Prabhupada may have said that he considered a particular godbrother as a siksa guru in the sense that He may have consulted with him in some matters, we should recognize there is no evidence that Srila Prabhupada consulted or agreed with this godbrother in the most important principle in Guru Diksa or who whould be an "initiating" guru. He knew they were not qualified. Or the second most important: developing attachment for chanting. Matter of fact, the stronger evidence reveals that Srila Prabhupada not only said His godbrother lacked qualification to be Acarya but also did not obey Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Maharaja.

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

I saw also a post back there somewhere about siksa (siksha or shiksha) guru i.e. instructing guru, that Prabhupada said to accept Sridhara Swami as siksa guru. It also said in one of those Gaudiya Math articles that we are "villifying" the Gaudiya Math "guru's" when instead we should be accepting them as our siksa gurus. They are good at word jugglery, I'll tell you that much! No one is "villifying" any of them. What we have pointed out only, ONLY, has had to do with who fits the qualificaiton of guru. The anger is only coming from them, because they get envious Prabhuapda is not theirs, and that we stick with him too. I have read some very mean things these "followers of Prabhupada" have said about him. Yet if we say boo, we are "villifying." Better to get a clear understanding of what Prabhupada meant with this thing of "Sridhara as siksa guru."



Often the following has been quoted to show that Srila Prabhupada approved and supported Sridhara Swami, even the acceptance of him as Prabhupada's siksa guru.

"I can refer you to one who is most highly competent of all my god-brothers. This is B.R. Sridhara Maharaja, whom I consider to be even my siksa guru, so what to speak of the benefit that you can have from his association." ~ SP to Hrsikesa January 9, 1969,

This is only a partial quote. It also does not reveal the specific situation at hand. We can't tell by this what was going on. So here it is.

Devotees, Hrisikesa and Acutyananda, ran run off to Bon Maharaja's place to learn from him. They wanted to permanently camp there and be his (siksa) disciples. At this point they all ready had decided they were not going to follow Prabhupada's instructions (go to Germany). Instead they wanted to take a Siksa Guru from the Gaudiya Matha in India. Prabhupada's letter was specific to this situation and not blanket approval. It was more along the lines of "damage control" for the soul of these two disciple. Bon Maharaja had even been rejected by Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaja, so Prabhupada was trying to save them by drawing them away from him.

Lets look at ALL of that letter from Prabhupada:

"I suspect that you have interest in taking instruction from some siksa guru, but in this connection, because you are my disciple and I think, a sincere soul, it is my duty to refer you to someone who is competent to act as siksa guru. This Bon Maharaja, perhaps you do not know, has been rejected by Guru Maharaja. So I cannot recommend him as siksa guru. I think that he has no actual spiritual asset. For spiritual advancement of life, we must go to one who is actually practising spiritual life; not to some head of a mundane institution, not to one who has offended his Spiritual Master in so many ways. I do not wish to go into all details here, but I must inform you that this Bon Maharaja may be considered as a black snake, and at the time of His Disappearance, my Guru Maharaja did not even wish to have him in His presence due to the character of this Bon Maharaja. So if you are actually serious to take instructions from a siksa guru, I can refer you to one who is most highly competent of all my god-brothers. This is B.R. Sridhara Maharaja, whom I consider to be even my siksa guru, so what to speak of the benefit that you can have from his association. He is living in Navadvipa, and if you like, I can give you letter of introduction as well as I will send him letter to allow you to stay there with him. So if you and Acyutananda are not lost to the poison of Bon Maharaja, and are still serious about advancement of your spiritual life, I will advise you to go to Sridhara Maharaja. Or else I do not know what will save you. So my advice to you both is that you immediately leave the unhealthy and envious association of Bon Maharaja and either proceed to Germany as I have instructed you, or at least go to someone who will be competent to act as sisksha guru. This is Sridhara Maharaja.

When I was in India, Acyutananda, Ramanuga, and myself, with others, lived with Sridhara Maharaja, so Acyutananda knows him very well. He spared a big house for us and if both of you go there now, it will be very good for your spiritual benefit. Then I will feel that you are safe. Besides that, if you wish to live in India, you can make arrangements for this house so that other of your god-brothers may go there in the future. Just on the other side of the Ganges there is Mayapur, and you can occasionally or every week go there and learn Bengali and Sanskrit if it is your desire. All facilities are there. Sridhara Maharaja is a very good English scholar and he can talk with you very nicely in English. The room in Vrindaban where you are residing may also be kept so that it may be utilized when necessary. But so far as I am concerned, I am becoming older and older, and my life may be finished at any moment. As I have got my permanent residence in America, it is indication of Krishna that I shall live here to organize this movement to the best possible extent. If I sometimes go out of this country, I will go to Europe only and again come back. So, practically I have decided not to go to India anymore. In case I suddenly meet my death, then I shall make my will how to deal with my body later on.

So don't be carried away by whims. It is my duty to save you. Leave Vrindaban, live peacefully with Sridhara Maharaja, if you do not wish to go to Germany, and thereby you will be spiritually enlightened. Please inform me immediately regarding what you have decided."

(end of siksa letter)

There is the more detailed description of what was really the purpose of that specialized letter on this topic.

Furthermore, regarding Prabhupada accepting Sridhara M., as his own siksa guru, a few simple points to consider:

First, let's remember Prabhupada can be exceptionally humble! He even asked one of his American disciples to pray to Krishna for him.

Secondly, while Prabhupada is referring to Sridhara M. as his siksa guru, basically any devotee who tells anyone at all about Krishna is siksa, at least for that moment. That does not put devotees on any exalted platform of comparison. It's not about us, its about the definition of siksa.

Remember, in addition to referring to Sridhara Maharaja as his siksa guru, he simultaneously said this same godbrother was responsible for tearing apart the Gaudiya Math, as well as disobeying His Guru Maharaja, and having no interest in preaching.

And, the 'siksa' letter -- for lack of a better term -- was written in 1969 before what happened at the Mayapur Festival of in 1972, described in the previous post of mine. Although not all of Srila Prabhupada's godbrothers showed up for that first Mayapur festival of 72, many of them did. A meeting was arranged in the bamboo cottage between Prabhupada and his Mayapur (Tirtha Maharaja's group) godbrothers. They came in a rage and Srila Prabhupada sat on the floor at equal level with them. They accused Prabhupada of starting His own movement "without Authority of the Gaudiya Math."

They stated that this is a "great offense," and that Srila Prabhupada
must turn over all his disciples and world wide assets (such as vehicles and temples) to them. Then he can be forgiven for his "offenses."

Additionally, they stated that he "unauthorizedly" allows women and
men to dance together, has created brahmacarini's (the female version of brahmacari's or monks), allows sacred bead bags to be seen in public, gives Brahmin initiation for women, etc.

Srila Prabhupada made an offer to them. He invited them to come to America with him and preach in various centers. He offered to make them like GBC and manage areas of Iskcon. They were insulted by this offer and stormed out.

Some point out that not all of Prabhupada's godbrothers were present, and not all of Prabhupada's godbrother's said such things - yet, even Prabhupada's friend did not speak out or verbalized "whats going on here is wrong."

Finally, while Srila Prabhupada may have said that he considered a particular godbrother as a siksa guru in the sense that He may have consulted with him in some matters, we should recognize there is no evidence that Srila Prabhupada consulted or agreed with this godbrother in the most important principle in Guru Diksa or who whould be an "initiating" guru. He knew they were not qualified. Or the second most important: developing attachment for chanting. Matter of fact, the stronger evidence reveals that Srila Prabhupada not only said His godbrother lacked qualification to be Acarya but also did not obey Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Maharaja.
I'm sure I'm off on this...or something...but maybe he forgave them....gave them another chance or something...he seems like an incredably forgiving person...

...if I'm totally off or missed the point...just ignore me....

[YogaLady]

I'm sure I'm off on this...or something...but maybe he forgave them....gave them another chance or something...he seems like an incredably forgiving person...

...if I'm totally off or missed the point...just ignore me....

WOW You're fast. I'm still editing! LOL Or was until I saw your post. So if there's some slight differences between whats in mine now and whats in your quote, my appologies. And I will stop editing. ha

But yeah, you're just behind on posts, thats all. Tho this topic isn't really important if you're not trying to say the Gaudiya Math and Prabhuapda are the same thing, which you are not. I was posting to our lovely chief cowpie who enjoys posting subtle minimization of Prabhupada via the Gaudiya Math, because that's what they do (Gaudiya).

But you bring up a good point. I think many of us confuse how we would respond in our human, conditioanl phase of life, to how Prabhupada did or his spiriutal master did. So am glad you made this comment/question. And you are right. There was forgiveness. In spiritual lifel, one who is pure can disagree, even strongly, with their godbrothers yet still love them. Cuz its not about their personal relatioship at all, but about what their guru wanted, the qualification.

Additionally I heard there was one Gaudiya Math godbrother that Bhaktisidhanta Maharaja (Prabhupada's guru) was VERY unhappy with, yet when he died, Bhaktisiddhanta said he went back to Godhead. So all this can be going on, yet in spiriutal life there can still be forgiveness for it.

YL

[YogaLady]

oh thanks, Yoga lady for clearing this up. Well, I would like to point at the fact that we are trying to explain our philosophy to other people and those who oppose us they use not very honest way, how to contradict us. Just look at it from this angle. They digging up all these lies, but they are not able to put any real argument why our philosophy shouldn't work. No, at first we have to prove that Prabhupada was fallen, then we will listen to you. It's like :"Hey, everybody must be like me!". What is the point in slendering? They're just confusing other people with their belief. As Srila Prabhupada said, faith is not sufficient, because you can change faith several time during your lifetime. Please, if you wanna oppose, ask reasonable questions. We are saying: "Lord is one! Why to blame others for glorifying Him in a different way?" and you are saying: "You are not tolerant. Why don't you tolerate that there are many gods?" See, you're the ones, who are not tolerant, because you see only forms. that is the origin of confusion to see things as separated. We should not allow this confusion be spred. Thank you.

You make several good points here. Thank you.

I think the bottom line is, you started this thread, and it appeared to me all you wanted to do was say, "Hey, this is what I find cool as a path to God, its called chanting Hare Krishna, and Prabhupada is the guru, so I just want to tell ya all about this thing and share it with those INTERESTED. I'm not against anyone, just this is my thing to share with those of like mind." Am I close? :) Anyhow, then all this other stuff kept coming up, and why? For all the reasons you said above. More I suppose. But some people [not saying all people] just dont want to keep it simple. Gotta bring in the politics, Gotta "assume" we dont believe in other gurus, or other religions, etc. And gotta "fix" us cuz we sure need fixin. <G> Last I looked, the title of this thread was "Hare Krishna." lol

Like George said, "Chant! And be Happy!" Happy -- is that so hard? Digging up all this other stuff brings one down to the mental platform, that's not happiness. I guess they hate to be alone. <G>

Keep it simple. Just chant and that will birng happiness.

[sleeping jiva]

yeah, that's right, those were my intentions, I wanted to share this happiness, which chanting brings. I know that lot of people are just trapped and I wanted to help them. I know it's working, you just need to listen and try to understand -that's all. But if you have all these prejudgements, your mind is controlling you instead of you controling the mind. I'm not saying, join this movement, make commitment, bow down in front of something you don't even know. No. The primal thing is chant mahamantra (see below) and experience the pleasure! All speculations and intellectual debates are fine, but they are as well conditioned by our senses. And lot of time they just end up like this in dry explanations. Therefore we should control our senses first to see the world in more truthful way. And this control of senses can be attained simply by chanting, you just chant. you don't even need to believe in Lord Krishna to benefit! Why not to try it?

haribol!


ps. This is a link to article I just found out at http://www.krishna.org and it brings more quotes of Prabhupada about this issue. Though I wish we stopped this debate over Prabhupada's godbrothers -that is not related to the topic of this thread.
http://iskcon.krishna.org/Articles/2001/06/00320.html

[ChiefCowpie]

I'm sure I'm off on this...or something...but maybe he forgave them....gave them another chance or something...he seems like an incredably forgiving person...

...if I'm totally off or missed the point...just ignore me....
those words were not typed by you but by Krishna's spirit typing through you...the War is over

now is the time for devotees to stop seeing limited sectarianism but as all of us as members of the Chaitanya Mahaprabhu family...even us Bauls who have been excluded by the Gaudiya Vaisnavas

see the world as one where we can all work together to Chant and be Happy

and heal each others wounded spirits

have a haribol day

p.s. and once again, i'm am not a member of the gaudiya math...i am a Baul (a tantric left handed path of bisexuality, meateating and intoxication)

[ChiefCowpie]

http://www.wva-vvrs.org/img/logosc.gif (http://www.wva-vvrs.org/images/trinad.GIF) World Vaishnava Association

http://www.wva-vvrs.org/img/linea.gif

Sri Sri Guru Gauranga Jayatah


Why do we need a world vaisnava association?
by Svami B.A. Paramadvaiti
Secretary of the WVA and founding member
Why do we need a world vaisnava association? (http://www.wva-vvrs.org/about/jaya.htm#why)
WVA goals and expectations propose vaisnava solutions
to those problems in order to be taken seriously by the world at large.
(http://www.wva-vvrs.org/about/jaya.htm#wva)WVA goals and expectations further explained
how can we reach every town and village with mahaprabhu's message? (http://www.wva-vvrs.org/about/jaya.htm#goalls)
Intramission and intermission disputes
(http://www.wva-vvrs.org/about/jaya.htm#intra)The gaudiya vaisnavas and other vaisnava groups (http://www.wva-vvrs.org/about/jaya.htm#gaudiya)
The heart of the vaisnavas
(http://www.wva-vvrs.org/about/jaya.htm#heart)United we stand,divided we loose strength
(http://www.wva-vvrs.org/about/jaya.htm#united)The WVA: promoting love and tolerance
(http://www.wva-vvrs.org/about/jaya.htm#promo)The identity of a vaisnava
(http://www.wva-vvrs.org/about/jaya.htm#identity)Practical services of the WVA today
(http://www.wva-vvrs.org/about/jaya.htm#practical)The holy places must be protected
(http://www.wva-vvrs.org/about/jaya.htm#holy)Promoting vaisnava relief work
(http://www.wva-vvrs.org/about/jaya.htm#relief)The WVA is also your little child
(http://www.wva-vvrs.org/about/jaya.htm#child)The dignity of our preceptorial line (http://www.wva-vvrs.org/about/jaya.htm#dignity)
http://www.wva-vvrs.org/img/linea.gif

Why do we need a World Vaisnava Association?

Let me first offer my most humble obeisance's to my Diksa and Siksa-Gurus and to all the wonderful Vaisnavas in this world.
As Century 21 approaches, it is a very happy reality that many Vaisnava Acaryas, sannyasis and other devotees have come forward making an unified effort to revive the true spirit of the Visva-Vaisnav Raj -Sabha (World Vaisnava Association).
Let us dwell for a moment on the many advantages such an association has to offer to all of us. After careful consideration, we will realize that the Association envisioned by Srila Jiva Goswami and our founding fathers is actually a necessity from many angles of vision. We cannot really go on well without it. Here are a few points to highlight this thesis.


WVA GOALS AND EXPECTATIONS

We must all try to fulfill the prediction of Sriman Mahaprabhu, which is that His Holy Name will be chanted in every town and village throughout the world.
According to Srila Bhaktivinod Thakur in this age all the other sampradayas will align themselves with the teachings of Sriman Mahaprabhu and the Brahma-sampradaya.
The character and magnitude of the Vaisnava teachings are supposed to be so pure and great that the whole world can find shelter there.
We accept the Founder-Acaryas of all four Vaisnava-sampradayas and thus need to find a common ground from which we can relate to their present-day leaders and adherents.
Different rasas and expansions of the Lord are all accomodated within the broad view of pure devotees. Similarly, we need to make room for the free flow of different services and relationships between the many Vaisnava branches all connected to the same one Vaisnava family tree, the Sri Chaitanya tree.
Party Spirit is the enemy of truth. We need a forum which is devoid of enmities and petty quarrels. Such a forum can convince all devotees and even non-devotees of the true greatness of the Vaisnava message.
We need the identity of a Vaisnava to go beyond the affiliation to a particular institution. Even the connection to our Diksa-guru and his personal mission may be insufficient after his departure (Bhag. 11.9.31,CC Adi 1.1) because in every mission substantial changes cause some disciples to continue their spiritual life outside of their Gurudev's original mission. Recent examples of this include Srila Bhaktisaranga Gosvami Maharaj, Srila Bhaktidayita Madhava Maharaj, Srila Bhaktiprajnana Kesava Maharaj, Srila Bhaktiviveka Bharati Maharaj, Srila Bhaktiraksaka Sridhar Maharaj, Srila Bhaktivedanta Svami Maharaj P., Srila Bhaktipramoda Puri Maharaj and many others.
There are Tirthas, holy places, in every mission and in our Vaisnava religion in general. This means we have to take care of such holy places connected with the descent of the Lord and His devotees. Tirtha caretakers must be free from quarrel and party spirit. Tirthas must be held sacred by everyone who shares this happy faith in the Lord and His devotees. Private property concerns and Guru monopolies destroy the peaceful atmosphere necessary for a Tirtha to bestow its blessings on one and all. We have to find a way to introduce the principle of unity in diversity in the Tirthas of each and every developing Vaisnava family, generation after generation.
We need to know more about each others' capacities and to prepare answers for the problems of a confused, developing world. Everyone is searching for relief from the onslaught of the mayik influence, kali-yuga. Vaisnavas have to carefully research their own resources and subsequently propose Vaisnava solutions to those problems in order to be taken seriously by the world at large.
WVA GOALS AND EXPECTATIONS FURTHER EXPLAINED

How can we reach every town and village with Mahaprabhu's message?

In order that the prophecy of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu be fulfilled we need an Army of pure preachers. If we desire that the Holy Name be chanted everywhere, we will need countless Gurus guiding countless disciples in their spiritual life. All of them will regard their Gurus as transparent, capable representatives of our Guru-Sastra-Sadhu principle. Since we may never offend a Vaisnava without spoiling our own spiritual life, we have to adjust our darshan-vision to allow for neighboring temples, Gurus and disciples. No matter how beloved one particular Guru was, his disciples will not all be able to transfer that same love to any successor-Acarya, whose relative position may be that of a godbrother. New choices have to be made concerning how a mission shall run after the Acarya disappears. Each individual devotee has to determine how to continue his own life of surrender and preaching, and the mission should try as far as possible to accommodate him. How sad is it otherwise, for a Vaisnava mission, if valuable members withdraw due to unfortunate conditions which are beyond their control.

It is hard to conceive of,and neither in the past has it been shown, that a spiritual master who inspired a growing mission with the help of many disciples could just be substituted by any single successor. Firstly,the godbrothers are not surrendered to him in the same way they were to their Guru. Secondly, he may not have the same drive or capacity as his Guru had, and thus, his failure to maintain things will go to his discredit, what to speak of expanding the mission. Individual devotees are capable of doing wonderful things and those who were expecting all wonderful things to manifest only within their own jurisdiction will again and again be reminded of the all-pervading nature of Transcendence. All the disciples of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur were taken by surprise to see one of their godbrothers,Abhay Babu, Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaj (Srila Prabhupad) almost single-handedly fulfill the prediction of Sriman Mahaprabhu.

The WVA shall accept as members all those who preach the gospel of Krsna-Prema, Krsna-kirtan and Vaisnav-seva in as much as they represent the pure doctrine and share the common goals of the WVA. Therefore, the WVA cannot exclude from membership anyone just on the basis of a dispute he has with some other member. As a matter of fact the WVA shall provide such a happy and broadminded view that many such disputes will naturally be set aside to concentrate on our real business which is: Sri KRISHNA Sankirtan.

[ChiefCowpie]

note: the following article by Swami B.A. Paramadvaiti, WVA-Secretary is a Prabhupada disciple as were the articles concerning the final instructions by a Prabhupada disciple...Visnu Maharaja...the other article by Gopakumar is also a Prabhupada disciple

i hope everyone here sees that the reconciliation and healing that is going between the Gaudiya Matha and Prabhupada disciples is being initiated by many Prabhupada disciples and is not inspired by enviousness but by love of God and a desire amongst all devotees to fullfill the wish of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and deliver transcendental love of Krishna to all the universe

[ChiefCowpie]

http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/srila_sridhara_mj/affection/graphics/g_border_4-01.gifhttp://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/srila_sridhara_mj/affection/graphics/g_border_4-01.gifMy Dear Devotees,
http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/srila_sridhara_mj/affection/graphics/dot_clear.gifI humbly Beg
http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/srila_sridhara_mj/affection/graphics/dot_clear.gifAll of You,
http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/srila_sridhara_mj/affection/graphics/dot_clear.gifPlease!
http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/srila_sridhara_mj/affection/graphics/dot_clear.gifDo Not Commit
http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/srila_sridhara_mj/affection/graphics/dot_clear.gifVaishnava Aparadha.

(Shri Chaitanya
Mahaprabhu)

[gdkumar]

"I'm sure I'm off on this...or something...but maybe he forgave them....gave them another chance or something...he seems like an incredably forgiving person...

...if I'm totally off or missed the point...just ignore me...."

.....SvgGrdnBeauty.

Dear SvgGrdnBeauty,

I did not pray but Lord Krishna took care of you. It could not be better.
My dear blessed soul, I believe ChiefCowPie when he says it is Krishna who typed for you.

You are Lord Jesus's dear child, I do not have slightest doubt about it.
Keep it up dear, as you desire so you get. Sincerely love all,all will love you. That is what Krishna is all about.

With lots of love and prayers............Kumar.

[gdkumar]

Dear Sleeping Jiva,

Now you know everything. Please calm down and be happy.

With love.........Kumar.

[gdkumar]

Dear YogaLady,

It is all beautiful now, please resume your beautiful pieces of devotional talks.

With love........Kumar.

[YogaLady]

Dear YogaLady,

It is all beautiful now, please resume your beautiful pieces of devotional talks.

With love........Kumar.

Dear gdkumar,

With much love, please understand when maya is presented as Krishna, to go along with it is not peace. Now please to understand Prabhupada's message is not the same as the one chief cowpie is obsessed with creating the fight about.

YL

[YogaLady]

Chief cowpie,

I've come to the conclusoin you dont care a whoop for Srila Prabhupada. You only care for undoing his mission, and promoting the Gaudiya Math mission. Which again I wouldn't care about, but that you keep posing on his thread this fight that has gone on since the 1950s as if its our fault we are having this argument when in truth it went all the way back to his godbrothers in the 50s, that you dont care about any of this and enjoy posting links contrary to his message, is selfish. But to say the war is over all the time, who says this? The Gaudiya Math. Its not the Prabhupada wants a war, but he won't pretend they are teaching according to their (same) spiriutal master when the turth is, they are not. So the war isn't just my opinion your opinion, or my opinion vs kumaras opinion, or someone else opion vs another someone elses, its about accepting and then surrendering to a bona fide guru first, which means he knows the absolute truth and us conditioned souls do not. The war started from the Gaudiya Math, not Prabhupada. The fact that he won't water down his philosophy to put an end to the war, is not to be blamed on him, instead he should be admired for his strength. Why don't you start your own thread? What is this obsession with putting countless links on a thread meant for Prabhupada? You must be getting some payback for this. What harm in starting your own thread called "Gaudya Math" or something like that? Do you enjoy the attention of creating trouble to Prabhupada's movement, which is what we WERE trying to focus on here, until you came in with all the politics that date back to the 1950s and have nothing to do with Prabhupada's pure movement he started in American in the late 1960s. Why not leave us alone and stop harassing those who want to follow Prabhupada? There has to be some great pleasure you get from it. The war is not over cuz you say it is, the war is not over cuz the Gaudiya Math says its over, why? Cuz THEY started the war, not Prabhuapda. To keep saying the war is over reminds me of the abuser who brings roses to make up and apologize until next time he wants to abuse. They say its over, but they won't start following the instructions of their guru, they wont get along with Srila Prabhupada. Many of their sites use all these clever psychological put downs of Prabhuapada that the untrained eye would not pick on up. The war is over? Then why they do this? But hey, keep getting your yah yahs by ruining this thread of peace and posting the very thing you KNOW upsets us AND making it sound like we are the bad guys. Oh what clever webs you weave.

YL

[gdkumar]

Dear ChiefCowPie,

What should I say? Dear Baul, I love you. The whole universe is yours. I understand your prem, pain and the urge in you to unite everybody so that no body ever commits Vaishnava aparadha.

Wish you all the best.

With love........Kumar.

[sleeping jiva]

chief cowpie:How can there be peace, when animal slaughtering is going on? hahahahah.

gdkumar: not to fight when Lord Krishna's name is slendered, means cowardice. If we allow maya be spred, our mind will be naturally disturbed. And with disturbed mind, how can there me happiness?

[YogaLady]

yeah, that's right, those were my intentions, I wanted to share this happiness, which chanting brings. I know that lot of people are just trapped and I wanted to help them. I know it's working, you just need to listen and try to understand -that's all. But if you have all these prejudgements, your mind is controlling you instead of you controling the mind. I'm not saying, join this movement, make commitment, bow down in front of something you don't even know. No. The primal thing is chant mahamantra (see below) and experience the pleasure! All speculations and intellectual debates are fine, but they are as well conditioned by our senses. And lot of time they just end up like this in dry explanations. Therefore we should control our senses first to see the world in more truthful way. And this control of senses can be attained simply by chanting, you just chant. you don't even need to believe in Lord Krishna to benefit! Why not to try it?

haribol!


ps. This is a link to article I just found out at http://www.krishna.org and it brings more quotes of Prabhupada about this issue. Though I wish we stopped this debate over Prabhupada's godbrothers -that is not related to the topic of this thread.
http://iskcon.krishna.org/Articles/2001/06/00320.html

Thank you. Yes, exactly. This fight over constantly brining up Prabhupada's godbrothers is an attempt to ruin everything you started. And chief cowpie may look like he knows something, and he does, 'something.' A "little" knowledge can be a dangerous thing. What he knows is so limited, that he doesn't even know what he DOESNT know. I've looked at some of his posts all over this forum, and they are all over, and he is not a deovtee of Krishna. He does not give Vaisnava replies in his other posts. He's maybe a jack of all trades but master of none. Though he just is haivng fun here and talks not about Krishna anywhere else, and especially not about the rules to be in connection to Krishna becaus he hates rules. Just check out his posts and he does not understand the difference between mundane rules and spiriutally freeing rules, so he is enjoying upsetting us. A hippie who likes to upset. Go figure.

Be nice for a change if he's let us go, start his own thread, and let us just talk in peace here about Prabhupada's and Krishna.

But he won't. You know he won't. And there's nothing we can do about it cuz the moderator of free speech sites I guess its ok they let people pick on other peoples religion in the name of freedom. I undrestand it, yet from reading other posts by chief cowpie, I can see his actions here are not innocent, and that he's not a devotee of Krishna or of anyone. I wish he would leave us alone. He's a bully, disrespecting our spiriutal path. I wouldn't do that to him. He's mean, he's self absorbed, I know he's reading these words, and oddly, I know he's enjoying them. He just wants to take over at any cost.

[YogaLady]

Dear ChiefCowPie,

What should I say? Dear Baul, I love you. The whole universe is yours. I understand your prem, pain and the urge in you to unite everybody so that no body ever commits Vaishnava aparadha.

Wish you all the best.

With love........Kumar.

Dear Kumar,

I think you are sincere, and I think you are into some form of impersonalism. Its not all one. Those are NOT Prabhuapda's teacihngs. If you want to unite all, thats different. There can be unity, but not by fighting the words of the pure devotee. Why are we the bad guys here? It was our thread, then teachings that are outrihgt opposite of ours, were presented. THAT started the war, not us. We merely defending our religion. A Vaisnava is one who believes Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, not all this wishy washy stuff. So you say the effort is there to unite all Vaisnava's, but what anyone whose read Prabhupada's books throughly will immediately see is the exact opposite is whats going on. I dont go to Christian threads and say become Jewish, I do go to Shivite links and say become Vaisnava's. So to try to change our religion and create this illusion that its the same as the Gaudiya Math is something any follower of Prabhuapda isn't going to accept. Ever. Why not respect our guru? Our religion? The way it is, not the way others want to twist it and turn it into? Again, I have no problem with other paths, but not to try to say ours is something else. How mean that is! Not loving.

[YogaLady]

note: the following article by Swami B.A. Paramadvaiti, WVA-Secretary is a Prabhupada disciple as were the articles concerning the final instructions by a Prabhupada disciple...Visnu Maharaja...the other article by Gopakumar is also a Prabhupada disciple

WAS is the key word here. MANY use to be dedicated to Prabhupada and have changed camps or gurus. They no longer represent his clear philosophy. I long ago read that article, but I dont have the energy to keep showing, and I CAN SHOW, where they have twisted so many things! But you seem to have all day behind the computer to try to undermind OUR beliefs.


i hope everyone here sees that the reconciliation and healing that is going between the Gaudiya Matha and Prabhupada disciples is being initiated by many Prabhupada disciples and is not inspired by enviousness but by love of God and a desire amongst all devotees to fullfill the wish of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and deliver transcendental love of Krishna to all the universe

Oh yeah, thats what your about, "Healing." As if Prabhuapda needed healing. As if Prabhupada was wrong, he should not have gotten "angry" at his godbrothers, and he needs fixing too. His words, he changed his mind. I've heard them all. Yet from HIS OWN MOUTH, he has not said these things. The best the Gaudiya Math can do is give partial quotes of his that are unexplained, to make themselves look good. You want to do some healing? Tell the Gaudiya Math to finally start to follow the instrutions of THEIR guru, Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaja, because the war, the fight, is not really beween them and Prabhupada, but the result of them not following their spiriutal master. Simply Prabhupada is the only one who had the guts to point it out, and no one likes a whistle blower.

so tell us chief cowpie, when did you surrdner to a guru? Are you an initiated disciple, of anyone? LOL You know so much, yet so little. Really you dont want to, you just want to jerk us around. I'm calling a spade a spade, peace my eye, you're trying very hard to agitate our minds and our hearts and our religious beliefs. You're just the flip side of fundamentalists.

YL

[gdkumar]

Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, Nityananda Mahaprabhu, where are you ?
Oh Lord Krishna, Oh Lord Jesus, where are you ?

Jagai-Madhai,the dacoit brothers hit Nityananda with a piece of broken jar,cut His fore head. Chaitanya dev was furious and wanted to punish them but Nityananda mahaprabhu(Bleeding) told him, "Should not we love them just because they hit me with that piece of broken jar ? Oh Prabhu please calm down." The dacoits were forgiven by Mahaprabhu.


Oh dear brothers and sisters, please try to visualize the scene of crucification of my beloved Lord Jesus.Can you feel the torture and pain of that crucification? Remember what He had said even after that excruciation ? He had prayed for forgiving all of them.

But we can not do the same even for trifle matters. Why ? Let us stop chanting because it is not yielding any result. Or we are chanting just for the sake it, without any love in the mahamantra, any understanding.

For the sake of our God's pleasure let us, the children, stop this unhealthy squabble.

With love and prayers.............Kumar.

[YogaLady]

Dear Kumar,

You may think your "unity" mood is one of love and resolving a problem, and the fight is childish, but none of the above is true. Do you really think a pure devotee has childish fights? This started long ago, before any of us were born! Why? Not for some childish reason, but due to not following the orders of their spiriutal master Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaja. So we, the dedicated followers of Prabhupada, aren't going to 'surrender' to any hode-pode or watering down of his teachings for the sake of getting along. I will, however, leave, give you all the peace you want, because I cannot stay on forums that do not respect the repeated requests of the devout followers of Prabhuapda not to twist his teachings. I'm not leaving yet, but if chief cowpie wants to take over, he can, and if there is going to be this "lets all get along even if it means man changes Gods religion" philopshy here, then there's no sense in my coming here.

You bring up Jesus. When it comes to Christ, he was crucified for what he believed and did not water it down to please the many chief cowpies that constantly debated him. Even the Prince of Peace became a spiritual warrior when it was required.

Peace at all cost can be very expensive. It can be interpreted as "Please walk all over me and I will give in for the sake of peace." It can mean there can be a war in Viet Nam or Iraq because we want to keep peace toward our own president, it can mean a lot of crap can go on in the name of peace. There is real peace, then there is selfish peace. I love peace too, but for it to be lasting, we can't twist Prabhupada's words. Funny how they make all these claims he wanted the war to stop, yet he never bothered to tell us that. He went to the Gaudiya Math and told them that, but not his own disciples? Not his very own movement? Give me a break. To clarify though, sure he didn't WANT war, but THEY are the ones who have to stop, not him, not us. They, the Gaudiya Math, must stop changing things and start following what Srila Bhaktisiddhanta taught.

[YogaLady]

I don't really want to get into this, but seems I am not being believed. And why should anyone believe me? So I will put some things by Prabhupada. Yet, I knew he too would prefer readers to read nectar, but chief cowpie thinks he knows more than the pure deovtee and keeps hounding this topic, so kindly forgive me if I post Prabhupada viewpoint as he does Gaudiya Maths.

===

[Our Srila Prabhupada use to call his guru, Srila Prabhupada. You will see that below. This poem is to Bhaktisiddhanta, our guru's "Srila Prabhupada."]

VIRAHA-ASTAKA

Eight Prayers in Separation From My Spiritual Master,
composed in December 1958 by His Divine Grace Srila A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.

(Printed in the Gaudiya Patrika magazine by his godbrother Kesava Maharaja in February 1959 for Srila Bhaktisidhanta Sarasvati Thakur's Disappearance Day.)

Prathama Astaka (First Octet)

1.1 O Srila Prabhupada! You personally suffer to see the suffering
of the fallen conditioned souls. On this anniversary of your
separation I am utterly despondent.

1.2 "The ocean of mercy was previously held back by a dam, but Lord Nityananda personally cut a channel in it and thereby released the outpouring flood of pure ecstatic love of God." (from Locana Dasa's song "Nitai guna-mani")

1.3 Those devotees to whom the responsibility was given to continue spreading this flood of love somehow became overpowered by Maya and were thus reduced to simply performing ritualistic Hindu ceremonies for the benefit of materialists.

1.4 Lord Nityananda's inundation of prema was thus completely
stopped by those known as "jati-gosai" (caste gosvamis). But then
you personally came, O Master, to open wide the floodgates once
again.

1.5 Again you engulfed everyone in the deluge of pure divine love –
even such a low, wretched, fallen, and sinful soul as myself.

1.6 On the strength of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu's command, you sent out all of your servants as spiritual masters, going from door to
door, just to deliver the fallen souls.

1.7 The devotees were enthusiastically preaching everywhere – from
the oceans to the Himalaya mountains. But now that you have gone
from our midst, everything today has become very dark.

1.8 O Srila Prabhupada! You personally suffer to see the suffering
of the fallen conditioned souls. On this day of your separation I am
utterly despondent.

Dvitiya Astaka (Second Octet)

2.1 Just as Advaita Prabhu had prayed fervently and thus induced
Sri Gauranga to descend, so did your father, Bhaktivinoda Thakura,
pray for you to incarnate.

2.2 Due to Bhaktivinoda's eagerness, O Master, you came and
proclaimed to everyone that India is the most holy land of the
Lord's divine pastimes.

2.3 "One who has taken his birth in this land of Bharata-bhumi
should first make his own life successful and then work for
the benefit of all other people." (Cc Adi 9.41)

2.4 This is the most significant message of Lord Caitanya that you
boldly preached everywhere. But now in your absence, O Master,
everything has fallen into darkness.

2.5 The overflowing ocean of your compassion has once again been
dammed up. This makes me feel as if a spear of great misery has
indeed pierced my heart.

2.6 Without Caitanya Mahaprabhu's message being spread, there is
only confusion and upheaval in the movement. Seeing this situation, all the Vaisnavas are also feeling overwhelmed with the pangs of
your separation.

2.7 The spirit souls have once again been captured by Maya and
plunged into absolute darkness. Desperately searching for relief,
they are simply perishing in a fathomless ocean of anxiety.

2.8 O Srila Prabhupada! You personally suffer to see the suffering
of the fallen conditioned souls. On this day of your separation I am
utterly despondent.

Trtiya Astaka (Third Octet)

3.1 You instructed everyone you met to chant the holy name of Lord
Krsna. You showed the example by continually reciting that maha-
mantra into their ears.

3.2 You empowered everyone with the qualification to further
distribute that holy name. But now, by the influence of Maya, there
is only darkness on all sides.

3.3 The souls who are truly attached to worshiping the Lord always
sing and dance in joyful sankirtana. Following in the footsteps of
their spiritual master, they deliver the whole world.

3.4 But those who have no such qualification perform nirjana
bhajana, or so-called confidential worship in a solitary place. Thus
acting whimsically, all of them actually remain absorbed in personal
sense gratification.

3.5 "An ordinary soul should never imitate the activities of the
Supreme Lord, even in his mind." (SB 10.33.30) According to these
instructions in devotional service, the unqualified imitators are
all ruined.

3.6 You preached "utility is the principle" – that is, one should
act without attachment and use anything that is deemed appropriate
in the devotional service of the Lord.

3.7 In such detached devotional service to Lord Krsna, there would
be a temple established in every house. But now just the opposite situation is apparent everywhere.

3.8 O Srila Prabhupada! You personally suffer to see the suffering
of the fallen conditioned souls. On this day of your separation I am
utterly despondent.

Caturtha Astaka (Fourth Octet)

4.1 Everything regarding material prosperity as well as mystic
perfection is fully present in your transcendental message: "Because the residents of Vraja have life, therefore they engage in preaching work." (Dusta Mana, verse 18)

4.2 The "resolute intelligence" (vyavasayatmika buddhi) explained
by Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti [in his commentary to Bhagavad-gita
2.41] is now spoiled since your disciples have become ensnared in
the bewildering noose of Maya.

4.3 Those disciples who were irresolute in performing devotional
service according to your instructions have divided your mission into [I]many factions. It appears that the tigress of ambition for material name and fame has appeared and personally provoked this upheaval.

4.4 The essential purport of your message obviously did not enter
their ears. O where will I get the strength to perform this hari-
nama-sankirtana?

4.5 To chant the holy name of the Lord is the explicit command of
my worshipful spiritual master. I could never honestly neglect that
order.

4.6 Your greatest acclaim is that you propagated the topmost
religious culture. Anyone who accepts the holy name from you becomes spiritually qualified.

4.7 If all those who have attained this qualification were to go
out and make disciples, then the miserable conditioned souls would
all be delivered from the world of birth and death.

4.8 O Srila Prabhupada! You personally suffer to see the suffering
of the fallen conditioned souls. On this day of your separation I am
utterly despondent.

[continued................]

[YogaLady]

[continued.................]


Pancama Astaka (Fifth Octet)

5.1 The greatest mantra of all, consisting of thirty-two letters,
is: Hare Krsna Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna Hare Hare
Hare Rama Hare Rama, Rama Rama Hare Hare.
People who are possessed by gross foolishness refuse to chant it.

5.2 Your so-called disciple, the jackal named Ananta Vasudeva,disobeyed your final instructions to keep the mission united, and thereby created a scandalous fiasco. The result of this philosophical deviation is evident to this day as imitative
sahajiyas are being worshiped as gurus in your temples.

5.3 Is there a single temple to be found where your instructions
are still being followed? As it is said: "punar musiko bhava" –
Everyone has "again become a mouse."

5.4 The lion's food has been stolen away by the deceptive tricks of
the jackal. Now caught in Maya's mighty clutches, everyone is
reduced to wailing and weeping.

5.5 O Master! If you are merciful to us once again, then even
though we are trapped here on the shore of the ocean of death, we
will finally behold a change for the better.

5.6 Then once again we can blissfully remember the holy name of
Krsna, and once again we will have firm faith in your "Vaikuntha
messages."

5.7 Once again you will make us dance in the pure holy name of
Krsna. Thus you will personally dispel all this confusion caused by
Maya.

5.8 O Srila Prabhupada! You personally suffer to see the suffering
of the fallen conditioned souls. On this day of your separation I am
utterly despondent.

Sastha Astaka (Sixth Octet)

6.1 "Continue dancing, singing and performing sankirtana in the
association of devotees." (Cc Adi 7.92) These words spoken by Sri
Caitanya Mahaprabhu are especially nectarine.

6.2 If we have complete faith in these instructions given by you,
our spiritual master, then in the performance of sankirtana actual
love for Krsna will be aroused in us.

6.3 Without love of God, our tiny individual intelligence only
becomes entangled in the network of Maya's delusions. Because no one actually attained prema, now there has been great upheaval in your mission.

6.4 The whole world has become filled with impersonalists, and the
Vaisnavas have given up the work of preaching that was entrusted to them and have simply gone off to perform solitary worship.

6.5 The Vaisnavas were famous as "patita pavana" (deliverers of the
fallen), but now this title has fallen into disgrace. Countless
numbers of your disciples have been forced to leave your movement.

6.6 At such an inauspicious time, O Master, what can be done to
repair the damage that is done? The beautiful garden that you had so carefully planted is now parched and withered away.

6.7 O Master, please awaken some good intelligence in this
insignificant disciple of yours so that my firm faith in your
transcendental message may increase more and more.

6.8 O Srila Prabhupada! You personally suffer to see the suffering
of the fallen conditioned souls. On this day of your separation I am
utterly despondent.

Saptama Astaka (Seventh Octet)

7.1 The most magnanimous incarnation of the Lord was Sri Krsna
Caitanya. Distributing the process of attaining love of God by
chanting the holy name of Krsna, He thus blessed the entire universe.

7.2 O Master, you are the personification of the transcendental
message of Lord Caitanya. You are the distributor of the message to
every town and village of the world.

7.3 You sent your devotees to preach in the faraway lands of the
Western Countries, and you personally traveled all over India, even
to the South.

7.4 You preached the pure philosophy of Lord Gauranga in such a way that intelligent persons could understand. And you showed such great concern, O Master, in convincing all your adversaries!

7.5 Lord Gauranga used many tricks just to engage the conditioned
souls in devotional service, and you have also understood how to use all those tricks perfectly well.

7.6 You understood time, place, and circumstance, and utilized
everything as a strategy for preaching. Although observing your
activities with their very eyes, those who are blind like owls and
other creatures of the night could not see your true purpose.

7.7 What will the Auls and the Sahajiiyas and the other nonsense
groups ever understand? And what will the sheep-like common people or the dry logicians ever understand?

7.8 O Srila Prabhupada! You personally suffer to see the suffering
of the fallen conditioned souls. On this day of your separation I am
utterly despondent.

Astama Astaka (Eighth Octet)

8.1 Lord Caitanya's method of devotional service is not performed
in solitude. You preached this again and again to your own devotees.

8.2 Just as the Lord delivered Jagai and Madhai out of His own
causeless mercy, you explained to everyone that this same method of preaching work has to go on.

8.3 The world has now filled up with many Jagais and Madhais to
deliver. Everyone is anxiously looking down the road waiting for
Caitanya-Nitai to come to their rescue.

8.4 If, at such a time as this, you were to personally return to
this world and once more preach about all these things the way you
always used to--

8.5 If there were enthusiastic preaching activities again taking
place in every direction, then all the people as before would be
stirred up in blissful excitement.

8.6 Your profound shouting would cause the demons and atheists to
flee, and your narrations of Lord Caitanya's message would fill the
hearts of the innocent souls.

8.7 Again the whole world would be excitedly bustling with good
tidings; but as it is, in your absence now there is nothing of value
anywhere.

8.8 O Srila Prabhupada! You personally suffer to see the suffering
of the fallen conditioned souls. On this day of your separation I am
utterly despondent.

8.9 O Master! My heart is broken in your absence. This disciple
named Abhay has hereby revealed only a small token of his wretched agony of separation.

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

I believe it was Gandhi who said that you must be the change you wish to see in the world...

I know that it often seams impossible that we can bring about peace because the world seems like such a mess...but just because it seams impossible doesn't mean we can stop trying...

...if we don't, who will?

And yes, Jesus did die for us...but he had a divine idea from the moment that he was born that he would have to do that so that we may also be a part of God...

No, I do not really understand too much of what you are arguing about because I am new to this world of understanding....but I really think that perhaps we should drop arguing about which guru was right (if that's not what you are arguing about I'm sorry...) or whatever else that you are arguing about and go back to talking of praising Lord Krishna and if you follow a particular guru...or praise him too! No, I don't think we can change the world with the snap of our fingers...but we have found enlightment...and I believe we should embrace it in hopes of finding a way, however small, to change the world. I never had much faith in my generation...and I lost all faith in the human spirit for a long time (that is what fear does...I live by New York City...I had friends who lost their fathers in horrible acts...I used to have dreams of airplanes flying through my windows for a year and a half...). I used to be afraid, but many things opened my eyes...this is one of them. Hare Krishna is one of them. The one thing that I don't understand about religion is the politics...I know I've said it once before...but I seriously think we're all the same...we all love God, Lord Krishna, Lord Jesus, Buddha...every name, same person...same spirit...so does it really matter how we go about honoring him as long as we do?

Maybe I've missed the point...maybe because I'm new to this that I don't understand...but I'm trying...and if I'm off I ask you once again to ignore me...but I do ask for the sake of us all...that we take a break, evaluate everything that has been said, chant, and then approach this thread again... perhaps it may help, perhaps it won't. I don't know these things...I don't always understand, for sometimes I am just outside looking in..but I do feel that we have become pretty close......and I do hope that you do not leave YogaLady...I don't want you to; you've been a very good friend and its been a pleasure chatting with you...with all of you.

Haribol!

*Peace and Love*
Nicole

[sleeping jiva]

gdkumar: I understand what you're saying. It has no value to protect this flesh (body). It's egotistical. Yet, when there's an offence commited against people, who are innocant from untrhuthful accusations, isn't that egotistical too? I'm not going to defend them, because I don't want to be hurt, even though I know they are right. I don't know much about Jesus Christ, yet I never heard anything, which would contradict Krishna. He wasn not coward, when the crowd was about to stone Maria Magdalena. He said: "The one who is sinless may stone her!". We should not find mistakes in others, while we have mistakes ourselves. I didn't start this thread in order to mock other religions, or even putting them down, trying to find dirt on them. My intention was to become a better devotee of Krishna -to become more loving servant, because I know that it is more than harmful to do what one has no qualification to do. We are all on different paths even within Krisha consciousness. Therefore we should improve ourselves first, then we will help others simply by not causing suffering anymore. If you want to help them directly, you can't, because you never know what is really helping them. We are too ignorant to see all consequences, causes. The only person, who knows everything is Krishna. He's the one, who helps.
Bhagavadgita is mainly about this. Arjuna wants peace and he want to spare his family members, what seems to be a good thing to do, but Krishna says: "Fight!" -that is my order. You are not the one, who is God, who knows all circumstances. Why do you feel attached to your family? We are not our bodies. We are all spirit souls.
gkumar, I hope you're not upset, please try to understand.

[YogaLady]

Tamala Kanea: No one helped you. That's a fact. You asked that...
Prabhupada: Who?
Tamala Kanea:... Tirtha Maharaja for some help, he did not help at all. He would not even give a little place.
Prabhupada: Nobody. Everyone admits." ~ SP Room Conversations, June 17, 77, Vrindavana India

=======

Pusta Krsna: They don't want to become like their parents. They don't see that their parents are a desirable example to follow.
Prabhupada: Yes. Wine and sex. They see from childhood. One boy, Rancor, so his father and mother divorced and he was young child. He was the first child of his mother. And the mother, he said, would daily bring a new friend. So he could understand.
Pusta Krsna: A new woman.
Prabhupada: Not new woman, his mother, he was under the care of mother.
Pusta Krsna: Oh, mother had new husbands, new boyfriends.
Prabhupada: Daily night. And he was shocked. One of my Gaudiya Matha Godbrothers, big, he became the head of this Bhag Bazaar Gaudiya Matha. So his wife was debauched, and she was bringing new paramour, and the child protested.
Pusta Krsna: New?
Prabhupada: Paramour. And the boy, he was ten years or twelve years old, he could understand: "Who is this man?" So he protested and said, "I shall tell all these things to my father." And he was killed.
Pusta Krsna: The boy was killed?
Prabhupada: By the mother.
Hari-sauri: She murdered him?
Prabhupada: Yes. Killed means given poison. And the father, that is, my Godbrother, seeing this, he also took poison. This is the end of Gaudiya Matha scandal. He was also one of the trustees. This Tirtha Maharaja was a trustee, and another Godbrother and this man. In the beginning, they were made trustees. In the beginning, Prabhupada was to undergo surgical operation. So he was a little nervous, that "I may die." So he made a scrap paper, that "In case I die, these three disciples will be trustees of the Gaudiya Matha Institute." That's all. So this Kunja Babu kept this. There are many long histories. So one of the so-called trustees was this Vasudeva. So he died, his end was like this.
Pusta Krsna: His son was killed, isn't it?
Prabhupada: His wife was a regular prostitute, and she killed her child, and on this shock, he took poison and died.
Pusta Krsna: He killed himself, oh.
Prabhupada: Naturally, he became shocked, that "This is my family life--the wife is prostitute and son is killed. What is the value of my life?" This was his spiritual realization. Just see. (laughs) And he was made the chief, and one of the supporter was Sridhara Maharaja.
Pusta Krsna: Vasudeva Sridhara?
Prabhupada: No, no. He was made chief. Guru Maharaja did not make him chief. But after his passing away, some of our Godbrothers voted him chief.
Pusta Krsna: Am I mis...? You had told me once, I'm not certain. Maybe I made a mistake. You said that Vasudeva, it was known fact that he was homosex?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Pusta Krsna: Vasudeva.
Srila Prabupada, Morning Walk, June 18, 1976, Toronto

====
Why is there this politics? This is not good. If politics come, then the preaching will be stopped. That is the difficulty. As soon as politics come, everything is spoiled. In the Gaudiya Math the politics is still going on. My Guru Maharaja left in 1936, and now it is 1976, so after 40 years the litigation is still going on. " Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Gurukrpa, 9/30/75

====
"There are similarly men also. Unnecessarily they are envious, offensive, unnecessary. They cannot tolerate others' opulence. Just like our Godbrothers. They are envious. What I have done to them? I am doing my business, trying to serve my Guru Maharaja. But they are envious because I am so opulent. I have got so much fame, so many influence, so much influence all over the world. Everyone is praising me about... That is ignorance. And this is regrettable because they are posing themselves as Vaisnava. Ordinary man can do that, but they are dressing like Vaisnava, and they are so envious. That Tirtha Maharaja, unnecessarily he was envious, whole life fighting, fighting, fighting in the court and died. Simply planning." Prabhupada's Room Conversation in Bombay 1/8/77

=======
"Regarding the 92 section case against the Gaudiya Math, I don't think there is any possibility of compromise. Both the Bhagbazar Party [Sridhar Maharaja's group] and Mayapur party [Tirtha Maharaja's group] have unlawfully usurped the missionary institution of Srila Prabhupada, and whenever they will talk of a compromise, it means another complication." Prabhupada's Letter to Narayana Maharaja 9/30/69

====
"In India some of the important members they have collected huge amounts in the name of the Society and spent it luxuriously. I wanted you all my experienced disciples should manage the whole institution very cleverly without any personal ambition like ordinary materialistic men. The Gaudiya Math institution has become smashed, at least stopped its program of preaching work on account of personal ambitions." ~ Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Karandhara 10/8/74

====

"So far personal association with the Guru is concerned, I was only with my Guru Maharaja four or five times, but I have never left his association, not even for a moment. Because I am following his instructions, I have never felt any separation. There are some of my Godbrothers here in India who had constant personal association with Guru Maharaja, but who are neglecting his orders. This is just like the bug who is sitting on the lap of the king. He may be very puffed-up by his position, but all he can succeed in doing is biting the king. Personal association is not so important as association through service." SP letter to Satadhanya, Feb 20, 72, Calcutta

=====

"Regarding our Gaudiya Math in Bombay: I am very sorry that you are disappointed in respect of their activities. I know this fact because in 1934 I was one of the active members in starting this Math. The Gowalia Tank center was opened by me, and although I lived separately from the Math, practically I was in charge of the Math and under the instructions from His Divine Grace. Then after His Departure, you know so many unhappy things happened, but, as I was a householder, I remained always aloof from those unhappy incidences." Prabhupada letter to Jagannatha Prabhu, Montreal, June 22, 68

====

"If somebody thinks, 'Oh, here is a snake with jewel. Let me embrace him, no, no, no, it is very ferocious. Even it is jewel there, it is ferocious. Similarly, these people are envious. Although they have become so-called Vaisnava, they are ferocious. They have not acquired the qualification of Vaisnava. Simply vesopidin(?), by dress." Srila Prabhupada's Room Conversation in Vrindaban 5/24/77

===

"So any one of my godbrothers cannot help me in this way of book writing because they are unfortunate in the matter of preaching work. They are simply trying to infiltrate our society to so something harmful by their attempt. So please do not have any correspondence with this Purusottama or any of my godbrothers, so-called." -- SP letter to Karaunasindhu, Bombay, Nov 9, 75
========

"Different Godbrothers took the words of Guru Maharaja in different interpretations for sense gratification and the whole mission disrupted." ~ SP letter to Tamala Krishna, Titenhurst, Oct 18, 69

====

"Such neophytes, unable to appreciate the exalted service of the advanced devotee, try to bring the maha-bhagavata to their platform. We experience such difficulty in propagating this Krishna consciousness all over the world. Unfortunately we are surrounded by neophyte Godbrothers who do not appreciate the extraordinary activities of spreading Krishna consciousness all over the world. They simply try to bring us to their platform, and they try to criticize us in every respect. We very much regret their naive activities and poor fund of knowledge. An empowered person who is actually engaged in the confidential service of the Lord should not be treated as an ordinary human being, for it is stated that unless one is empowered by Krishna, one cannot spread the Krishna consciousness movement all over the world.

When one thus criticizes a pure devotee, he commits an offense (vaisnava-aparadha) that is very obstructive and dangerous for those who desire to advance in Krishna consciousness. A person cannot derive any spiritual benefit when he offends the lotus feet of a Vaineava. Everyone should therefore be very careful not to be jealous of an empowered Vaineava, or a cuddha-vaineava." ~ Srila Prabjupada, Nectar Of Instrution, text 6
==========

Prabhupada: Vandavana, yes. That “ Bhaktivedanta Swami speaks as strongly as Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvate was speaking. ” You know that?
Ksirodaksaya: Oh, yes. I met so many times. I understand also.
Prabhupada: He said that.
Jayatertha: Very nice compliment.
Ksirodaksaya: He also said that “Srila Prabhupada is only one who has really taken the, his mission seriously. ”
Prabhupada: That is a fact. Of course, I do not say myself. That will not look good, but there is other... They, all my Godbrothers, realize it. “ But he is only representative. ” Somebody, they frankly admit, and somebody do not.
Ksirodaksaya: I met... Some they are starting coming here to see how the things are. (laughs) " -- SP Converstation at house of Ksirodaksi das, London, July 25, 76

[sleeping jiva]

I believe it was Gandhi who said that you must be the change you wish to see in the world...

I know that it often seams impossible that we can bring about peace because the world seems like such a mess...but just because it seams impossible doesn't mean we can stop trying...

...if we don't, who will?

And yes, Jesus did die for us...but he had a divine idea from the moment that he was born that he would have to do that so that we may also be a part of God...

No, I do not really understand too much of what you are arguing about because I am new to this world of understanding....but I really think that perhaps we should drop arguing about which guru was right (if that's not what you are arguing about I'm sorry...) or whatever else that you are arguing about and go back to talking of praising Lord Krishna and if you follow a particular guru...or praise him too! No, I don't think we can change the world with the snap of our fingers...but we have found enlightment...and I believe we should embrace it in hopes of finding a way, however small, to change the world. I never had much faith in my generation...and I lost all faith in the human spirit for a long time (that is what fear does...I live by New York City...I had friends who lost their fathers in horrible acts...I used to have dreams of airplanes flying through my windows for a year and a half...). I used to be afraid, but many things opened my eyes...this is one of them. Hare Krishna is one of them. The one thing that I don't understand about religion is the politics...I know I've said it once before...but I seriously think we're all the same...we all love God, Lord Krishna, Lord Jesus, Buddha...every name, same person...same spirit...so does it really matter how we go about honoring him as long as we do?

Maybe I've missed the point...maybe because I'm new to this that I don't understand...but I'm trying...and if I'm off I ask you once again to ignore me...but I do ask for the sake of us all...that we take a break, evaluate everything that has been said, chant, and then approach this thread again... perhaps it may help, perhaps it won't. I don't know these things...I don't always understand, for sometimes I am just outside looking in..but I do feel that we have become pretty close......and I do hope that you do not leave YogaLady...I don't want you to; you've been a very good friend and its been a pleasure chatting with you...with all of you.

Haribol!

*Peace and Love*
Nicole


Exactly! You keep apologizing for your ignorance -that's a proof of your knowledge, because only humble will recieve the bliss of intelligence from God.
Yeah, I hear you. We were close, you felt it and I felt it too. Let's return there and leave the politics on thread, where these topics are discussed.

[YogaLady]

"So far as cooperating with my Godbrothers is concerned, that is not very urgent business. So far until now my Godbrothers have regularly not cooperated with me and by the grace of my Spiritual Master, things are still going ahead. So cooperation or non-cooperation, it is the desire of Bhaktivinode Thakura to preach the Caitanya cult all over the world and in 1875 he predicted that someone would come very soon who would individually preach this cult all over the world. So if his benediction is there and my Guru Maharaja's blessings are there, we can go ahead without any impediment but all of us must be very sincere and serious. We have been a little inflicted by public criticism that we Godbrothers do not work together. My Guru Maharaja wanted also us to work together but some how or other it has not happened up until now. So your program of cooperating with Madhava Maharaja is not so important." pPrabhupada letter to Jayapataka, Gorakhpur, Feb 23, 71

=========
Krsna sakti vina nahe krsna name pracara: 'Without Krsna's special power of attorney, nobody can preach His name.' Caitanya-caritamrta. So these rascals, Godbrothers, they are envious that... What he has written? Bon Maharaja. Just see what kind of men they are. They are not even ordinary human being. They are envious of me, and what to speak of make a judgment by estimation? They're envious. Enviousness is immediately disqualification of Vaisnava, immediate. He is not a human being. Paramo nirmatsaranam satam. This Bhagavatam is meant for the person who is completely not envious. That is the beginning. Why a Vaisnava should be envious for anyone? Everyone is working according to his karma. He is trying to rectify him, that 'Be out of these clutches of karma. You come to bhakti.' Why he should be envious? Vancha-kalpatarubhyas ca krpa-sindhubhya eva ca. A Vaisnava should be like ocean of mercy to reclaim the fallen souls. That is Vaisnava's qualification. So Vaisnava should be envious? Just see. So these persons, they are not even human being, what to speak of Vaisnava. Vaisnava cannot be envious. Vaisnava should be: 'Oh, my Lord's name is being broadcast. He is getting, giving so much service to make Krsna known.' That man has appreciated, that 'All these spiritual leaders, they are deriding. You are the only man... You are... It enthuses us, give us more encouragement, that you are keeping intact, love of Krsna.' This is an appreciation. Why he should be envious? He should be, rather, very much enthused that 'This single man is keeping Krsna all over the world.' And everyone is deriding." -- Prabhupada's Room Conversation with a Reporter in Johannesburg 10/16/75

=====

"Do not be depressed. All along my godbrothers gave me only depression, repression, compression--but I continued strong in my duty. So never mind there is some discouragement, continue with your work in full enthusiastic Krishna Consciousness attitude of service." ~ Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Gurudasa 8/29/72

====

"Regarding the Gaudiya Math books being circulated there, who is distributing? Who is sending these books? The Gaudiya Math does not sell our books, why we should sell their books. Who has introduced these books? Let me know. These books should not at all be circulated in our Society. Bhakti Vilas Tirtha is very much antagonistic to our society and he has no clear conception of devotional service. He is contaminated." Prabhupada letter to Sukadeva, New Delhi, Nov 14, 73

[YogaLady]

"My other godbrothers they are concerned with litigations, politics, and diplomacy, so what is the pracara? As far as I am concerned I have the blessings of my guru maharaj. I do not need anything else. That is how I went to your country, just to try to carry out his order. By his blessings it has come out successful." ~ Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Subala 10/15/74

======

Tamala Krsna: Today I was reading a very beautiful section of Caitanya-caritamrta that Krsna comes in the form of the spiritual master. And then that...
Prabhupada: Spiritual master is a revelation of Krsna.
Tamala Krsna: Yes.
Prabhupada: Guru-krsna.
Tamala Krsna: It was mentioning how the initiator spiritual master is the representative of Sri-Sri-Madana-mohana, and the instructing spiritual master is a representative of Sri-Govindadeva. Very nice explanation you gave in the purport.
Prabhupada: As far as possible, I have tried to present. In one place I have criticized my Godbrothers.
Tamala Krsna: Last night?
Prabhupada: No, no, in Caitanya-caritamrta.
Tamala Krsna: Oh, yeah, at the end in one line. We were... When we read that, it was actually relishable, very personal.
Prabhupada: Sridhara Maharaja is little...
Tamala Krsna: He read it?
Prabhupada: I think so.
Tamala Krsna: Did he make any comment?
Prabhupada: He cannot make any comment. These are facts. Two parties there were. One party, to use guru as their instrument for self-aggrandizement, and another party left guru. So both of them are offenders. This Kunja Babu, this Tirtha Maharaja's party, he wanted to enjoy senses through guru. And the Bagh Bazaar party, they left.
Tamala Krsna: Vasudeva.
Prabhupada: So both of them are severe offenders.
Tamala Krsna: What about Sridhara Maharaja?
Prabhupada: Sridhara Maharaja belonged to the Bagh Bazaar party. And I was living aloof. My Guru Maharaja approved. He said, "It is better that he is aloof from them."
Tamala Krsna: He could understand that his disciples were not...
Prabhupada: No, he was very sorry. At the last stage he was disgusted.
Tamala Krsna: But that... That doesn't mean that your disciples should think also, "I will remain aloof just as our Prabhupada..."
Prabhupada: No, that I have not said. Therefore I used so strong word on the, our Surabhi's action. This was made independently. He has written. He has given photograph. That is not good.
Tamala Krsna: Yeah, I took that as a good instruction to all of us, your rebuking.
Prabhupada: I told him that "You cannot do so independent. You are doing nice, but not to do in the... You admit." People complained against Hamsaduta. Did you know that?
Tamala Krsna: I'm not sure of the particular incidences, but I've heard general...
Prabhupada: In Germany. In Germany.
Tamala Krsna: The devotees there.
Prabhupada: So many complaints.
Tamala Krsna: Therefore change is good.
Prabhupada: No, you become guru, but you must be qualified first of all. Then you become.
Tamala Krsna: Oh, that kind of complaint was there.
Prabhupada: Did you know that?
Tamala Krsna: Yeah, I heard that, yeah.
Prabhupada: What is the use of producing some rascal guru?
Tamala Krsna: Well, I have studied myself and all of your disciples, and it's clear fact that we are all conditioned souls, so we cannot be guru. Maybe one day it may be possible...
Prabhupada: Hm.
Tamala Krsna: ...but not now.
Prabhupada: Yes. I shall choose some guru. I shall say, "Now you become acarya. You become authorized." I am waiting for that. You become all acarya. I retire completely. But the training must be complete.
Tamala Krsna: The process of purification must be there.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes, must be there. Caitanya Mahaprabhu wants that. Amara ajnaya guru hana. "You become guru." (laughs) But be qualified. Little thing, strictly follower...
Tamala Krsna: Not rubber stamp.
Prabhupada: Then you'll not be effective. You can cheat, but it will not be effective. Just see our Gaudiya Matha. Everyone wanted to become guru, and a small temple and "guru." What kind of guru? No publication, no preaching, simply bring some foodstuff... My Guru Maharaja used to say, "Joint mess," a place for eating and sleeping. Amar amar ara takana (?)(Bengali): "Joint mess." He said this.
Tamala Krsna: That word "mess," by that word he meant eating, messing, eating?
Prabhupada: Yes. Messing, there is a system. Some clerks, they make a small cooperative hotel. In India there are many.
Tamala Krsna: That I see in South India sometimes... In dharm... I mean, in places like hotels I see.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Tamala Krsna: Men who work, they all come...
Prabhupada: Cooperative effort.
Tamala Krsna: So he called that a joint mess, and he said that some of the disciples were doing that.
Prabhupada: He knew that. What is the use? Tirtha Maharaja's defense was that. "These people..." They were fighting with Tirtha Maharaja in the court that "Tirtha Maharaja was not good." Tirtha Maharaja's only defense was "All right, you want to combine to make a guru. All right, why don't you combine yourself for preaching?"
Tamala Krsna: What was his defense?
Prabhupada: That "You want to work jointly, so why you do not work jointly? You are jointly working to harass me. Why not preach jointly?"
Tamala Krsna: What was their reply?
Prabhupada: No reply.
Tamala Krsna: So it was a good defense.
Prabhupada: Yes. "You have joined together to defeat me. Why don't you preach jointly? What do you want? That I shall also join and we shall jointly preach. Do this. You are divided amongst yourselves, and you have joined together to defeat me." Sridhara Maharaja is the leader.
Tamala Krsna: Of that group.
Prabhupada: Madhava Maharaja also
Tamala Krsna: Madhava Maharaja is.
Prabhupada: For the last forty years they're fighting in the courts. They indirectly wanted me also to join them. "He has got money. If he joins, then our monetary, financial help will be there." That is their...
Tamala Krsna: Sridhara Maharaja. I remember a letter they wrote you in Los Angeles in 1969. You replied them, "Yes, I will join, but since I have preached in eleven-twelfths of the world, eleven of my men will be representatives, and you can put one."
Prabhupada: (laughing) Yes. Yes, according to the area, my representatives are there.
Tamala Krsna: Now there should be all twelve. (Prabhupada laughs)
Prabhupada: Another Godbrother, he asked me fifty thousand rupees to maintain his temple.
Tamala Krsna: How much?
Prabhupada: Fifty thousand. So I said, "Yes, I can give you fifty thousand, but this is mleccha money. You'll be polluted. Best thing is that give. We can maintain. I'll immediately deposit fifty thousand." He has stopped. (laughs) "We are mlecchas. I am the leader of the mlecchas, so my money will pollute you. But if you are feeling difficulty, you hand over the temple to us, and on condition I immediately deposit fifty thousand in the name of the temple."
Tamala Krsna: Then he was not interested. Suddenly his problems were solved. He didn't take the money.
Prabhupada: Money is not mleccha. But when we offer to eat something, we are mleccha.
Tamala Krsna: No one will take... A lot of the men, people, will not take prasadam at our temples for the same reason.
Prabhupada: Now they are taking. And some of them are not. ~ SP Room Conversation, April 22, 1977, Bombay
========
"Prabhupada:... that if we remain rascals, then that Gaurasundara's example will be followed. One day you'll again become crazy and close up everything and smoke. That's all. My Guru Maharaja used to say, praea arthe yaira sei hetu pracara. “ One who has got life, he can preach. ” The dead man cannot preach. So you become with life, not like dead man. Without life... Just like all my godbrothers. They are dead men. And therefore they are envious of my activities. They have no life. If you want to make easy-going life, showing the Deity and then sleep, then it is a failure movement." ~ SP Morning Walk, Marine del Rey, July 13, 74, LA, Ca.

==========

Prabhupada: That was the policy of Madhava Maharaja and Sridhara Maharaja, that "Although Bhaktivedanta Swami is propagating throughout, he is subordinate to us, under our instruction." So all these three..." ~ Srila Prabhupada Room Conversation, January 19, 1976, Mayapur

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

Exactly! You keep apologizing for your ignorance -that's a proof of your knowledge, because only humble will recieve the bliss of intelligence from God.
Yeah, I hear you. We were close, you felt it and I felt it too. Let's return there and leave the politics on thread, where these topics are discussed.
I appologize only because I do not want to be totally off with what I'm saying...because sometimes I write things without thinking and they don't have anything to do with anything...I just...go. I am glad that you understand what I'm saying though! Chant and be happy!! :) :)

Hare Krishna Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna Hare Hare, Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare... :) :)

[YogaLady]

I appologize only because I do not want to be totally off with what I'm saying...because sometimes I write things without thinking and they don't have anything to do with anything...I just...go. I am glad that you understand what I'm saying though! Chant and be happy!! :) :)

Hare Krishna Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna Hare Hare, Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare... :) :)

You are a sweet person, SvgGrdnBeauty, and that this topic should not have even come up here is a fact. No one wanted to waste time in a debate that reaches back 50 decades or more, but instead to focus on Prabhupada's Hare Krishna movement of the 60s' and how we can still do that.

If you really want to understand the debate chiefcow pie loves to post here, the bottom line is this:

Prabhupada severed himself from the Gaudiya Math long ago, but they want to claim him now. When he left on a ship to create this movement in the west, not one of them would help him, but now that he has become well known, they want him.

He left them for a reason and never returned. He did the work but they want to unite their movement with his, and to take his movement, his disciples.

Actually among devotees at the temple I have been told they (Gaudiya Math devotees) even come and grab up the new devotees who recently moved in, that the iskcon devotees preached to, then they try to take them away to a Gaudiya Math temple. After iskcon devotee did the work, took care of them, sheltered and fed them, and developed personal relationships with them too. But why must this all have to come up here? I dont follow any particular temple, but I feel if they do the preaching work, no one should go out of their way to siphen off the new devotees who dont even know the philosophy yet.

Anyway, the argument in general is whether or not Prabhupada wanted to be connected to the Gaudiya Math anymore or not. He didn't.


YL

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

You are a sweet person, SvgGrdnBeauty, and that this topic should not have even come up here is a fact. No one wanted to waste time in a debate that reaches back 50 decades or more, but instead to focus on Prabhupada's Hare Krishna movement of the 60s' and how we can still do that.

If you really want to understand the debate chiefcow pie loves to post here, the bottom line is this:

Prabhupada severed himself from the Gaudiya Math long ago, but they want to claim him now. When he left on a ship to create this movement in the west, not one of them would help him, but now that he has become well known, they want him.

He left them for a reason and never returned. He did the work but they want to unite their movement with his, and to take his movement, his disciples.

Actually among devotees at the temple I have been told they (Gaudiya Math devotees) even come and grab up the new devotees who recently moved in, that the iskcon devotees preached to, then they try to take them away to a Gaudiya Math temple. After iskcon devotee did the work, took care of them, sheltered and fed them, and developed personal relationships with them too. But why must this all have to come up here? I dont follow any particular temple, but I feel if they do the preaching work, no one should go out of their way to siphen off the new devotees who dont even know the philosophy yet.

Anyway, the argument in general is whether or not Prabhupada wanted to be connected to the Gaudiya Math anymore or not. He didn't.


YL
Ah. Thank you. I get it....I think

...I really don't think it should matter...maybe the two should join forces......you know ISKCON and Gaudiya Math...than there wouldn't be the arguing between the groups...you know, credit Prabhupada for all the wonderful work he did...and all can come and learn of his teachings and succome to Krishna consciousness together...I'm sure it would take a long time for it to happen...but maybe it is possible...I'm sure that Prabhupada probably would rather that than all this arguing in his name over something that should be happy.....

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you were saying that the Gaudiya Math were clouded by Maya...so maybe they aren't anymore because it took Prabhupada to get out there...you know maybe they were scared at the beginning so they didn't care...but when they saw how much happiness he spread in the West, they got it and they wanted to help and be a part of it...just a thought...

[ChiefCowpie]

Ah. Thank you. I get it....I think

...I really don't think it should matter...maybe the two should join forces......you know ISKCON and Gaudiya Math...than there wouldn't be the arguing between the groups...you know, credit Prabhupada for all the wonderful work he did...and all can come and learn of his teachings and succome to Krishna consciousness together...I'm sure it would take a long time for it to happen...but maybe it is possible...I'm sure that Prabhupada probably would rather that than all this arguing in his name over something that should be happy.....

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you were saying that the Gaudiya Math were clouded by Maya...so maybe they aren't anymore because it took Prabhupada to get out there...you know maybe they were scared at the beginning so they didn't care...but when they saw how much happiness he spread in the West, they got it and they wanted to help and be a part of it...just a thought...
exactly... and that is what is happening... the healing has begun all types of devotees from all types of different groups are coming together to sing the praises of Krishna and chant his Name

[ChiefCowpie]

You are a sweet person, SvgGrdnBeauty, and that this topic should not have even come up here is a fact. No one wanted to waste time in a debate that reaches back 50 decades or more, but instead to focus on Prabhupada's Hare Krishna movement of the 60s' and how we can still do that.to set the record straight, it way you who first brought up this issue with this post

I know that many, probably most, of Prabhupada's godbrothers did not like what Prabhupada did, or his success. They constantly caused him trouble, so I'm not going to get into who said what, when, where, that his godbrothers would fault find with him about. Prabhupada came right out and said his godbrothers were envious of him. He was the only one willing to cross an ocean or get two heart attacks in order to follow the insturction of his guru maharaja, and to save us, while the others remained nicely living where they were.i have only stated that i have heard otherwise from Prabhupada disciples...while i agree with you that many of the Gaudiya Math members ignored the wish of their guru and Chaitanya Mahaprabhu to spread sankirtana to every town and village worldwide and they fought and bickered amongst themselves and there was some jeolousy as to his success but what is a sign that Srila Prabhupada is a great master i feel is that he sought to end this war of bitter feelings that has destroyed his masters institution, the Gaudiya Matha through love and forgiveness and if one reads with openess and love, one will see these sentiments expressed in Srila Prabhupada's final instructions

the war is over

everyone dance and chant and sing Krishna

[ChiefCowpie]

PRABHAVATI D.D. – RESIDENT OF IMLITALA
by Swami B.A. Paramadvaitihttp://www.vina.cc/images/vaishnavas/2004/1/prabhavati.jpgPrabhavati d.d. was initiated by Srila Bhakti Saranga Goswami Maharaja. She is the Godsister of Bhavatarini d.d., the sister of Srila Prabhupada. Bhavatarini d.d. had taken first initiation from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur and thus she was the Godsister of Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, her natural brother. But she had not taken second initiation and she approached Srila Bhakti Rakshak Sridhardev Goswami Maharaja for this purpose. Srila Sridhar Maharaja told her in a humble mood to take initiation from his Godbrother Srila Bhakti Saranga Goswami Maharaja since she was living in Calcutta very near to his math. Thus by following the recommendation of Srila Bhakti Rakshak Sridhardev Goswami Maharaja she entered the beautiful family of the Gaudiya sanga and became very intimately associated with Prabhavati d.d. who lived in Vrindavan in the state of renunciation for so many years. When Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami entered the renounced order of life and lived in the Radha Damodar Temple, his loving and caring sister requested her Godsister to look after him. Thus she came to visit Srila Prabhupada regularly, arranged bhoga for his kitchen, help to prepare the food or sometimes cooked herself so that Srila Prabhupada could dedicate more of his time to writing. Thus she participated intensively in the wonderful sacrifice Srila Prabhupada was making for humanity. The intimate friendship which connects these Vaishnavas is very deep.

After Srila Prabhupada left this world, Prabhavati d.d. has kept her service going in Imlitala Mandir till present. Her rather frail body today doesn't impede her from seeing the Vaishnavas, blessing them and serving in so many ways. When you visit the Imlitala temple make sure you take the blessing of this wonderful Vaishnavi. Everybody calls her Pishima, which is the affectionate way of saying aunt. Pradyumna Prabhu who was living in the rooms of Srila Prabhupada after he left this world also recalls that Pishima often came by simply to see how he was. The elder devotees who come to Vrindavan know Pishima, but there are many young devotees who come that don't have any idea that this wonderful devotee who had the association of Srila Prabhupada, is still blessing us.

Living on the bank of the Yamuna, Pishima is waiting, always ready to give smiling blessings to the visiting devotees regardless from where they come from. Some Matajis, disciples of Srila Bhakti Vaibhav Puri Maharaja, have been helping her in her old age and thus receiving her merciful association. We are so fortunate that we can still meet these associates of Srila Prabhupada, before he came to the western world. Pishima loves to hear the readings of the Bhagavatam.

[ChiefCowpie]

http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/graphics/sp_ssm.jpgSeated together during the 1974 Mayapur Candrodaya Mandir Opening Ceremonies



Srila Sridhara Maharaja & Srila Prabhupada
Room Conversation


March 1977


Srila Sridhara Maharaja: The central principle of ISKCON philosophy is surrender, otherwise one will not be able to get to know the substance. Whatever you are seeing externally by means of your intelligence -- that is not going to help you to become acquainted with the real substance.

Srila Prabhupada: That Dr. Radhakrishnan [author and one-time president of India] was victimized by Western philosophy. He had no real understanding of Indian philosophy.

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: No matter; up to whatever extent they go, ultimately they end up becoming the worshiper of the self. They think that they will become God. The geocentric philosophy is not heliocentric. According to Srila Prabhupada [Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura], they are not heliocentric. They are geocentric. Their limit is only up to their senses. Beyond that, they don't have any understanding whatsoever. Ultimately their goal is Brahmaloka. Brahmaloka is the ultimate goal of these people, and beyond that they don't have any knowledge. The para-bhakti on the brahma-bhuta platform-that when one is situated on the Brahman platform, the transcendental platform, there the pure devotional service begins-they don't have any understanding about that.

Srila Prabhupada: But that Radhakrishnan-inwardly he was afraid. I used to invite him from time to time. He used to be quite intimate with me. He used to say, "Please pray to God about me."

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Where did he say that?

Srila Prabhupada: Where he used to stay in Delhi. He once wrote to me also, "After I retire, I shall join your movement."

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Sometimes the false prestige spoils everything.

Srila Prabhupada: He used to have a lot of respect for me. Once he asked, "Are you writing everything in English?" So I asked him, "What do you do?" and he smiled.

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: When he used to teach in Calcutta University, Bon Maharaja used to go to him, and once he took me with him, and before that once he brought him to Prabhupada. So this second time when we went to invite him I went with Bon Maharaja.

Srila Prabhupada: Personally he was a fine gentleman. A brahmana, very cultured, but a mayavadi. He is dead now.

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Yes, but Rajagopalachari [another Indian political leader/ author] was a Vaisnava.

Devotee (to Prabhupada): Your Srila Prabhupada has given you a lot of mercy.

Srila Prabhupada: That is all due to your blessings. I do not know for how long I will be able to carry on, so I came to see Sridhara Maharaja.

Devotee: If you all go away, then the world will become dark.

[ChiefCowpie]

Srila Sridhara Maharaja (to Prabhupada): It is so wonderful that the will of the Lord becomes manifest through someone.

Srila Prabhupada: I very much want, Maharaja, that you come and stay at Mayapura. Because Prabhupada always desired that you preach. He told me quite a few times, "Why don't you pull him out?" [They both laugh.] You know, I also tried to some extent before, but somehow or other it did not work out. Now, why don't you come and stay at Mayapura?

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: At last Prabhupada told me: "You are an ease-lover. [Laughter] The qualifications - that you have."

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, that's true. He told me also, "He is such a qualified person. Sridhara Maharaja is one of the finest preachers." I want to take you everywhere. At least at the place we have in Mayapura, people are coming from all over the world. Why don't you come and stay there? What is your objection to staying in Mayapura? If you just agree, then whatever kind of building you want, I will arrange it for you. They are trying to build a house for me, so both of us will stay there. And whenever you want, you can come here [to his Navadwipa math].

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Yes, as long as I am alive to fulfill Prabhupada's desire.

Srila Prabhupada: This is my earnest desire. Since you could not go around the world and preach, at least stay there and people will come to you. I shall make that arrangement. And if you stay there, then it will be very helpful to me also. Sometimes I need to consult with someone but there is no one. There is no one with whom I can consult. I feel this deficiency very greatly.

Devotee: If he stays in Mayapura, then all kinds of people will get to hear from him.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, that's right.

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Yes, people from all kinds of cultural backgrounds will come there.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, they are already coming. And in that house I will make arrangements for an elevator so that you won't have to go through the difficulty of walking up and down the stairs. You won't even have to move a step yourself. I'll make arrangements for a car and a lift. Jayapataka Maharaja is telling me that he will build a house for me. So both of us will stay in that house. Most of the time I am just traveling around, so if you are there, then they can get some guidance. So Maharaja, please-give me the order and I will make all the arrangements for you.

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Well, I'll think it over and let you know.

Srila Prabhupada: Let me make that arrangement, Maharaja. That planetarium [the "Temple of Understanding"] also will be built under your direction. My idea is to combine the Indian culture and the American money-the lame man and the blind man policy. I tell them also that this will be very beneficial for the world. Indian culture and varnasrama. Prabhupada's desire was to establish the varnasrama-dharma. So we have to do that: we have to establish our Varnasrama College. Let the people from all over the world come and learn about varnasrama.

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: The effort that you are making to acquire the land in Mayapura-has that been successful?

Srila Prabhupada: No, nothing has happened as yet, but we are buying the land. How far one can hassle with the government-of course they haven't yet said either yes or no. But we are buying the land now. They demand a very exorbitant rate, but what to do? We are buying; wherever someone is selling we are buying. When they see the Americans they want a price four times more, but what to do. I feel, let these poor people also have something. They are stealing, but what to do? I feel, let them also have something. Every month I bring one million rupees to this country and spend it for our development work-about seventy to eighty thousand dollars.

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: So this is a big income for Indira Gandhi.

Srila Prabhupada: That's what I say. With much difficulty I translate the books at night and they print it and sell it and send seventy, eighty thousand dollars every month to me here. Is India benefiting out of this, or losing out of this? Yet they [the Indian government officials] are accusing them [the American devotees] of being C.I.A. agents. [Bhakti Vilasa] Tirtha Maharaja used to say, "The American government has given Swamiji two million dollars." As if the American government could not find anything better to do or any better person to give the money. For making them chant Hare Krsna and dance they would give me two million dollars.

[ChiefCowpie]

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: A man from the Central Intelligence Department took initiation from me. He was asking me [about the American devotees]. I told him, "These are nothing but rumors. I know Swami Maharaja for a long, long time. I know him very well, and his movement is nothing but a purely spiritual movement." Actually, what they are thinking is that previously they [the Westerners] used to send the missionaries, then they used to send the merchants, and then the army used to come and take over. But those days are no more. Though if a net of such a faith of universal religion [as Gaudiya Vaisnavism] could be cast throughout the world, then perhaps that could be actualized in future.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, this study has been quite proper. This is what our plan is. I tell them that, "You work in this direction, and in the future everyone will recognize this movement." The American government is already saying that this movement is spreading like an epidemic. (To his disciples:) Who said this?

Devotee: One congressman has said that.

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Who said this?

Srila Prabhupada: One American congressman from the Senate said this on the television. "The Hare Krishna Movement is expanding like an epidemic, and if we allow them to go on like this, then one day they will capture the government-within ten years."

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: All the governments are becoming alarmed. (Laughter) Even this government, if they [the Western devotees] can conquer the masses and get them to support them.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, that is the fear of everybody.

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Ultimately, it may become the "world state" religion.

Srila Prabhupada: Automatically it will become so; that is the idea I have.

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: America was being accused of trying to make a one-state world so that, "Let there be just one state, and then there won't be any wars. If the whole world is made into one state, then there won't be any wars."

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, I replied to that, "You may make a one-state world. But if you make the populace into dogs, then there won't be any use, they'll just keep barking. You have to make them into human beings."

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Yes, they'll still go on fighting with each other.

Srila Prabhupada: Right, that is their nature to fight. So first of all you have to make them human beings; that is the brahma bhuta prasannatma, sama sarvesu bhutesu.

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Then, mad bhakti labhate param.

Srila Prabhupada: When they come to that stage, then it will be more useful; otherwise there is no hope. It is not impossible to happen.

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Yes, when there is a common center, then everybody can unite. Everybody can be harmonized. But that has to be real. If it is fictitious then there won't be any achievement.

Srila Prabhupada: I am hearing that the present American president, President Carter, he has some such plan and he is discussing it with Indira Gandhi. He is consulting with Indira Gandhi quite intimately.

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Yes, they are accepting our broad policy. From what I hear from the radio and newspaper, it seems that their policy is becoming much more broader than before.

Srila Prabhupada: Besides that, they don't have any other way. Otherwise they cannot achieve what they are actually wanting-the peace through the United Nations; that cannot be achieved.

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Yes, nothing less than Krsna consciousness will be able to give them that desired peace; nowhere else will they find it.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, bhoktaram yajna tapasam, sarva loka mahesvaram. So that is what I was telling them, that, "Stop fighting and making all those legal suits; then so nicely the preaching can be done in India in every village, every town." One disadvantage with these people is the language, but still, you must have heard, wherever they are going they are getting a very good reception. My Geetar-gan-first I printed five thousand, then ten thousand, then thirty thousand, but this time we are printing one hundred thousand and they are selling very nicely. In Bengali we are printing various books-Geetar-gan, Bhagavan Ekankatha, Bhagavata Darsan. In Hindi also, we are selling many books, like at Kumbha Mela we sold many, many books.

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Yes, this is what Krsna consciousness is, and people will naturally wonder what is there in it that captured the whole world in just ten years.

Srila Prabhupada: Now that they are opposing it, this is a great credit.
http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/gbc/dot_clear.gif

http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/gbc/dot_clear.gif

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Yes, that's why the governments are organizing the oppositions.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, they are clearly mentioning that, "If they get a chance to expand unrestrictedly, then in ten years' time they'll capture the governments."

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Yes, if the mass is converted and their votes can be acquired, then the government will be captured.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, and these are all young men. The young class of people have accepted it. One scholar, Dr. Stillson Judah, has already predicted that this movement will not be destroyed, because it has entered into the bones and marrows [of Western culture].

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Who is he, where is he from?

Srila Prabhupada: He is an American, a professor in the Berkeley University.



End of Room Conversation

[Jaganathadasa]

I do not believe SP would have wanted this nonsensical sectarianist attitude to be as it is today. This attitude has more to do with competing Gurus than it has to do with SP.

SP wanted to carry out the orders of his spiritual Master and the wishes of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, that every village shall chant the maha-mantra.

The age of Kali-yuga and the effects of Maya are strong.

Most Vaisnavas are happy to associate with all other Vaisnavas. That was the will of Sri Caitanya.

Haribol!

[ChiefCowpie]

thank you Jaganatha Dasa... are you a Srila Prabhupada disciple?


Sikshashtaka

Although Lord Chaitanya was widely renowned as a scholar in his youth, he left only eight verses, called Sikshashtaka. These eight verses clearly reveal his mission and precepts. These supremely valuable prayers are translated herein.


Glory to the Sri Krishna Sankirtana, which cleanses the heart of all the dust accumulated for years and extinguishes the fire of conditional life, of repeated birth and death. This Sankirtana movement is the prime benediction for humanity at large because it spreads the rays of the benediction moon. It is the life of all transcendental knowledge. It increases the ocean of transcendental bliss, and it enables us to fully taste the nectar for which we are always anxious.
O my Lord, Your holy name alone can render all benediction to living beings, and thus You have hundreds and millions of names like Krishna and Govinda. In these transcendental names You have invested all Your transcendental energies. There are not even hard and fast rules for chanting these names. O my Lord, out of kindness You enable us to easily approach You by Your holy names, but I am so unfortunate that I have no attraction for them.
One should chant the holy name of the Lord in a humble state of mind, thinking oneself lower than the straw in the street; one should be more tolerant than a tree, devoid of all sense of false prestige and should be ready to offer all respect to others. In such a state of mind one can chant the holy name of the Lord constantly.
O Almighty Lord, I have no desire to accumulate wealth, nor do I desire beautiful women, nor do I want any number of followers. I only want Your causeless devotional service birth after birth.
O son of Maharaja Nanda (Krishna), I am Your eternal servitor, yet somehow or other I have fallen into the ocean of birth and death. Please pick me up from this ocean of death and place me as one of the atoms at Your lotus feet.
O my Lord, when will my eyes be decorated with tears of love flowing constantly when I chant Your holy name? When will my voice choke up, and when will the hairs of my body stand on end at the recitation of Your name?
O Govinda! Feeling Your separation, I am considering a moment to be like twelve years or more. Tears are flowing from my eyes like torrents of rain, and I am feeling all vacant in the world in Your absence.
I know no one but Krishna as my Lord, and He shall remain so even if He handles me roughly by His embrace or makes me brokenhearted by not being present before me. He is completely free to do anything and everything, for He is always my worshipful Lord unconditionally.

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

I do not believe SP would have wanted this nonsensical sectarianist attitude to be as it is today. This attitude has more to do with competing Gurus than it has to do with SP.

SP wanted to carry out the orders of his spiritual Master and the wishes of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, that every village shall chant the maha-mantra.

The age of Kali-yuga and the effects of Maya are strong.

Most Vaisnavas are happy to associate with all other Vaisnavas. That was the will of Sri Caitanya.

Haribol!
Yes I agree...I believe that unification and world wide chanting of the maha-mantra is what we need to be looking at indeed...

hehe...I had to read it over twice before I realized what SP was...hehehe...

[ChiefCowpie]

Lord Gauranga
(Sri Krishna Chaitanya Mahaprabhu)

By

Sri Swami Sivananda (http://www.dlshq.org/saints/siva.htm)

Hare Krishna Hare Krishna
Krishna Krishna Hare Hare
Hare Rama Hare Rama
Rama Rama Hare Hare

http://www.sivanandadlshq.org/images/nitai_gauranga.jpg
Nityananda and Chaitanya Mahaprabhu



Conversion of Jagai and Madhai

Jagai and Madhai of Nabadwip were the most abandoned of sinners and the worst of criminals ever known to history. They were brothers. They were the Kotwals of Nabadwip. They plundered the rich, outraged the modesty of women and committed murders on the slightest provocation. There was no heinous crime on earth which those brothers had not committed. Though Brahmins by caste, they were inveterate drunkards.

Chaitanya and Nitai undertook the serious task of reclaiming the two brothers. Chaitanya proposed to his devotees that they should go to the tent of Jagai and Madhai, doing Kirtan all the way, and then give Hari Nam to them.

Chaitanya and his devotees appeared in the streets and started the Sankirtan. Nitai was at the head of the party. He led the party to the camp of Jagai and Madhai. He then came face to face with the two brothers. Nitai said, "Pray, dear brothers, take Krishna's name and serve Krishna, for He is the Supreme Lord". This exhortation inflamed Madhai, the stronger of the two. Madhai pelted Nitai with the broken neck of an earthen jar and inflicted a gaping wound in his forehead. Blood gushed from the wound. Nitai pressed the wound with both hands to stop the gush. Madhai picked another piece of the same jar and wanted to throw it on the head of Nitai. Jagai caught hold of Madhai's arms and remonstrated with him: "Hold Madhai. You are very cruel. What is the merit of killing a Sannyasin? It will do you no good".

News was conveyed to Gauranga, who was behind in the Kirtan party, that Jagai and Madhai were killing Nitai. Gauranga immediately ran to the spot where Nitai stood wounded. He took his own cloth and wrapped it round the forehead of Nitai to stop the bleeding. He then embraced Jagai for the good he had rendered to Nitai by checking Madhai from attacking Nitai again. Jagai fell down in a state of trance. Madhai was in a state of despair. He lost all power of speech. He prostrated at the feet of Gauranga: "O Lord, I am a great sinner. Have mercy on me". Gauranga asked Madhai to go to Nitai and seek his pardon. Madhai apologized to Nitai. Nitai pardoned Madhai and embraced him. Madhai also, like his brother, fell down in a state of trance.

Afterwards those brothers became holy saints, and as beloved of the world as they were hated and dreaded in their earlier days for their brutality. They atoned for their past misdeeds by going over on their knees in utter humility before everybody who went to the river for bathing and by doing for them all sorts of menial services. They prepared, spade in hand, a bathing Ghat which is still known by the name of "Madhai's Ghat" at Nabadwip.

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

Dear YogoLady:


Thank you for that liturature at krishnabook.com that you sent me the other day...last night I got a chance to read the intro by George, the preface, intro, and first chapter...it is incredably interesting...

...and then I took out my Bible (and I'll never understand what made me do it) and read the first 7 chapters of Mathew...guess what almost exactly the same as what Krsna says! I have a feeling that one day I'm going to write a long paper on this manner...everytime I read something comparitive I feel like I need to tell the world....

So everyone...if you haven't read that book, do. What I have read of it is wonderful and indeed stories of Sri Krsna make us smile... :)

Haribol!
*Peace and Love*
Nicole

[Jaganathadasa]

Chief Cowpie, yes he is my siksa guru.

SvgGrdnBeauty. Dont know if anyone has posted this before but you may find it interesting, enjoy!

Many people often wonder what is the view of Lord Jesus Christ in the Krishna consciousness movement.


Srila Prabhupada, the foremost exponent of the Krishna
consciousness movement explains that Jesus is Krishna's representative, son of God, and spiritual master.

Below are excerpts from Srila Prabhupada's books, lectures, and conversations about Jesus Christ and his
relationship with Krsna.

"If one loves Krishna, he must love Lord Jesus also. And if one perfectly loves Jesus he must love Krishna too. If he says, "Why shall I love Krishna? I shall love Jesus," then he has no knowledge. And if one says, "Why shall I love Jesus? I shall love Krishna", then he has no knowledge either. If one understands Krishna, then he will understand Jesus. If one understands Jesus, you'll understand Krishna too"
(Srila Prabhupada - Room conversation with Allen Ginsberg, May 12, 1969 / Columbus - Ohio)

As Lord Jesus Christ said, we should hate the sin, not the sinner. That is a very nice statement, because the sinner is under illusion. He is mad. If we hate him, how can we deliver him? Therefore, those who are advanced devotees, who are really servants of God, do not hate anyone. When Lord Jesus Christ was being crucified, he said, "My God, forgive them. They know not what they do." This is the proper attitude of an advanced devotee. He understands that the conditioned souls cannot be hated, because they have become mad due to their materialistic way of thinking. In this Krsna consciousness movement, there is no question of hating anyone. Everyone is welcomed to come and chant Hare Krsna, take krsna-prasada, listen to the philosophy of Bhagavad-gita, and try to rectify material, conditioned life. This is the essential program of Krsna consciousness.
(Path of Perfection Chapter 3: Learning How to See God)


Christian, Muhammadan, Hindu-it doesn't matter. If he is simply speaking on behalf of God, he is a guru. Lord Jesus Christ, for instance. He canvassed people, saying, "Just try to love God." Anyone-it doesn't matter who-be he Hindu, Muslim, or Christian, is a guru if he convinces people to love God. That is the test. The guru never says, "I am God," or "I will make you God." The real guru says, "I am a servant of God, and I will make you a servant of God also." It doesn't matter how the guru is dressed. As Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, "Whoever can impart knowledge about Krsna is a spiritual master." A genuine spiritual master simply tries to get people to become devotees of Krsna, or God. He has no other business.
(Science of Self Realization Chapter 2: Choosing a Spiritual Master)

So Lord Jesus Christ said, "My Lord, hallowed be Thy name." He wants to glorify the name of the Lord. And some people says that there is no name of God. How? If Lord Jesus Christ says "Hallowed by Thy name," there must be name. The name is there, but he did not pronounce it because the people at that time will not be able to understand or maybe some reason, but he says there is name. So we are making this propaganda, Krsna consciousness movement, the "Hallowed by Thy name. My Lord Krsna, the Personality of Godhead, let Your holy name be glorified." This is our movement. It is not a sectarian...(Lecture: Bhagavad Gita 3.27 Melbourne June 27, 1974)

Sometimes Sri Krsna descends Himself, and sometimes He sends His representative. The major religions of the world-Christian, Hindu, Buddhist and Moslem-believe in some supreme authority or personality coming down from the kingdom of God. In the Christian religion, Jesus Christ claimed to be the son of God and to be coming from the kingdom of God to reclaim conditioned souls. As followers of Bhagavad-gita, we admit this claim to be true. So basically there is no difference of opinion. In details there may be differences due to differences in culture, climate and people, but the basic principle remains the same-that is, God or His representatives come to reclaim conditioned souls.
(Raja Vidya Chapter 6 :Knowledge of Krsna's Appearance and Activities)

Just like Lord Jesus Christ. He was so badly treated and still he was thinking, "Father, they do not know what they are doing. Please excuse." This is suhrdah. He is praying to God This is sadhu, mahatma. Suhrdah prasanta. Not that... In India there are examples like Haridasa Thakura, Prahlada Maharaja. And the Western countries also, Lord Jesus Christ, he is saktyavesa-avatara, God's son. And he tolerated so much. These are the examples of mahatma. Don't misunderstand that we are preaching that mahatmas are only in India. No. By the order of the Supreme Personality of Godhead there are mahatmas even amongst the birds, even amongst the beasts, even amongst the lower than animals. Because this Krsna consciousness movement is going on in different places, in different circumstances.(Srimad Bhagavatam 5.5.3 --vrndavana Oct 25, 1976)


Conversation with Father Emmanuel (http://www.harekrishnatemple.com/bhakta/emmanuel.html)- In 1974, near ISKCON's center in Frankfurt am Main, West Germany, Srila Prabhupada and several of his disciples took a morning walk with father Emmanuel Jungclaussen, a Benedictine monk from Niederalteich Monastery. Noticing that Srila Prabhupada was carrying meditation beads similar to the rosary, Father Emmanuel explained that he also chanted a constant prayer: "Lord Jesus Christ, be merciful unto us." The following conversation ensued.

Conversation with Cardinal Danielou (http://www.harekrishnatemple.com/bhakta/cardinal.html)- "Thou Shalt Not Kill" or "Thou Shalt Not Murder"?
At a monastic retreat near Paris, in July of 1973, Srila Prabhupada talked with Cardinal Jean Danielou: "... the Bible does not simply say, `Do not kill the human being.' It says broadly, `Thou shalt not kill.'... why do you interpret this to suit your own convenience?"

From Perfect Questions, Perfect Answers (http://www.harekrishnatemple.com/bhakta/perfect.html) - Discussions between Peace Corps Worker Bob Cohen and His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

Jesus Christ Was a Guru (http://www.harekrishnatemple.com/bhakta/jesusguru.html) - The spiritual leader of the Hare Krsna movement here recognizes Lord Jesus Christ as "the son of God, the representative of God... our guru... our spiritual master," yet he has some sharp words for those who currently claim to be Christ's followers...

A devotee of Krsna is friendly to everyone. Therefore it is said here that he has no enemy (nirvairah). How is this? A devotee situated in Krsna consciousness knows that only devotional service to Krsna can relieve a person from all the problems of life. He has personal experience of this, and therefore he wants to introduce this system, Krsna consciousness, into human society. There are many examples in history of devotees of the Lord who risked their lives for the spreading of God consciousness. The favorite example is Lord Jesus Christ. He was crucified by the nondevotees, but he sacrificed his life for spreading God consciousness. Of course, it would be superficial to understand that he was killed. Similarly, in India also there are many examples, such as Thakura Haridasa and Prahlada Maharaja. Why such risk? Because they wanted to spread Krsna consciousness, and it is difficult. A Krsna conscious person knows that if a man is suffering it is due to his forgetfulness of his eternal relationship with Krsna. Therefore, the highest benefit one can render to human society is relieving one's neighbor from all material problems. In such a way, a pure devotee is engaged in the service of the Lord. Now, we can imagine how merciful Krsna is to those engaged in His service, risking everything for Him. Therefore it is certain that such persons must reach the supreme planet after leaving the body.
(Chapter 11 Bhagavad gita text 55 purport) To learn more about Lord Jesus Christ from a Vaisnava perspective please visit this
nice website done by Prthu das Adhikari : Jesus: A Ray of Visnu (http://www.iskcon.net/oregon/jesus/)





Hare Krishna!



(http://www.harekrishnatemple.com/bhakta/chapter26.html)

[Jaganathadasa]

Jesus Christ Was a Guru




Srila Prabhupada recognizes Lord Jesus Christ as "the son of God, the representative of God... our guru... our spiritual master," yet he has some sharp words for those who currently claim to be Christ's followers... The Srimad-Bhagavatam states that any bona fide preacher of God consciousness must have the qualities of titiksa (tolerance) and karuna (compassion). In the character of Lord Jesus Christ we find both these qualities. He was so tolerant that even while he was being crucified, he didn't condemn anyone. And he was so compassionate that he prayed to God to forgive the very persons who were trying to kill him. (Of course, they could not actually kill him. But they were thinking that he could be killed, so they were committing a great offense.) As Christ was being crucified he prayed, "Father, forgive them. They know not what they are doing."

A preacher of God consciousness is a friend to all living beings. Lord Jesus Christ exemplified this by teaching, "Thou shalt not kill." But the Christians like to misinterpret this instruction. They think the animals have no soul, and therefore they think they can freely kill billions of innocent animals in the slaughterhouses. So although there are many persons who profess to be Christians, it would be very difficult to find one who strictly follows the instructions of Lord Jesus Christ.
A Vaisnava is unhappy to see the suffering of others. Therefore, Lord Jesus Christ agreed to be crucified-to free others from their suffering. But his followers are so unfaithful that they have decided, "Let Christ suffer for us, and we'll go on committing sin." They love Christ so much that they think, "My dear Christ, we are very weak. We cannot give up our sinful activities. So you please suffer for us."
Jesus Christ taught, "Thou shalt not kill." But his followers have now decided, "Let us kill anyway," and they open big, modern, scientific slaughterhouses. "If there is any sin, Christ will suffer for us." This is a most abominable conclusion.

Christ can take the sufferings for the previous sins of his devotees. But first they have to be sane: "Why should I put Jesus Christ into suffering for my sins? Let me stop my sinful activities."
Suppose a man-the favorite son of his father-commits a murder. And suppose he thinks, "If there is any punishment coming, my father can suffer for me." Will the law allow it? When the murderer is arrested and says, "No, no. You can release me and arrest my father; I am his pet son," will the police officials comply with that fool's request? He committed the murder, but he thinks his father should suffer the punishment! Is that a sane proposal? "No. You have committed the murder; you must be hanged." Similarly, when you commit sinful activities, you must suffer-not Jesus Christ. This is God's law.

Jesus Christ was such a great personality-the son of God, the representative of God. He had no fault. Still, he was crucified. He wanted to deliver God consciousness, but in return they crucified him-they were so thankless. They could not appreciate his preaching. But we appreciate him and give him all honor as the representative of God.
Of course, the message that Christ preached was just according to his particular time, place, and country, and just suited for a particular group of people. But certainly he is the representative of God. Therefore we adore Lord Jesus Christ and offer our obeisances to him.
Once, in Melbourne, a group of Christian ministers came to visit me. They asked, "What is your idea of Jesus Christ?" I told them, "He is our guru. He is preaching God consciousness, so he is our spiritual master." The ministers very much appreciated that.
Actually, anyone who is preaching God's glories must be accepted as a guru. Jesus Christ is one such great personality. We should not think of him as an ordinary human being. The scriptures say that anyone who considers the spiritual master to be an ordinary man has a hellish mentality. If Jesus Christ were an ordinary man, then he could not have delivered God consciousness.

[sleeping jiva]

hello Jaganathadasa!

Welcome in this thread about Hare Krishna! You're very welcomed. Thank you for all your links and articles. I was just reading Srila Prabhupada's interview with the cardinal about eat-meating :):). I don't know much about Christianity, but more and more I feel closer to Jesus's teachings. We should not be fooled by forms, let our deeds be our defense, not our words. Thanks for joining us.

[Jaganathadasa]

Thank you!

Hare Krishna!

[ChiefCowpie]

http://portalespiritual.cyberxcel.com/imagen/galeria/hind2/bebe%20krishna.jpg



Jaganatha dasa (or others) how do you feel about the fact that Krishna was a convicted butter thief (Gopala) of which he was in constant denial as he blamed the butter's disappearance on the monkeys?

[Jaganathadasa]

I wasn't aware he was 'convicted' prabhu!:)

Haribol Chief Cowpie,

In the village of Vrindavana Krishna enjoyed Himself with His mother, brother and friends, and when He played the role of a naughty butter thief, all His associates enjoyed celestial bliss by His stealing. The Lord's fame as a butter thief is not reproachable, for by stealing butter the Lord gave pleasure to His pure devotees. Everything that was performed by the Lord at Vrndavana was performed for the pleasure of His associates there. The Lord created these pastimes to attract the dry speculators and the acrobats of the so-called hatha-yoga system who had come to find the Absolute Truth. Even the speculators and those who outright deny the transcendental pastimes in Vrndavana, are blessed simply by having read about these auspicious activitys.

Best wishes,

Jaganatha dasa

[sleeping jiva]

Lord Krishna was no ordinary being. Everything he did was trancendental. We simply cannot judge Him according to measures, which we use to judge ordinary people. He was playing a ksatrija, just in order to please his devotees.

[ChiefCowpie]

I wasn't aware he was 'convicted' prabhu!:)

he is refered to as "Gopala" which translates to butter thief so there are deep and affecionate convictions that he yes, did steal butter

jai Govinda! jai Gopala!

[Jaganathadasa]

Yes prabhu I know he stole butter. I was refering to the term conviction as in being arrested by the police, held in jail, put in front of a jury and sentenced! It brought me to my knees chuckling!:D

[Jaganathadasa]

Hare Krishna
Hare Krishna
Krishna Krishna
Hare Hare

Hare Rama
Hare Rama
Rama Rama
Hare Hare

http://www.acbspn.com/audio/

Chant with Srila Prabhupada. :)

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

Hare Krishna

Hare Krishna

Krishna Krishna

Hare Hare

Hare Rama

Hare Rama

Rama Rama

Hare Hare
::dances around in a circle::

Thread wide chant!

[Jaganathadasa]

and George joins in!

Hari Haribol!!!

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

hehehe...of course he can join in!


Haribol!

[ChiefCowpie]

http://portalespiritual.cyberxcel.com/imagen/galeria/hind2/hanuman%202.jpg

hare krishna hare krishna krishna krishna hare hare
hare rama hare rama rama rama hare hare

[ChiefCowpie]

Yes prabhu I know he stole butter. I was refering to the term conviction as in being arrested by the police, held in jail, put in front of a jury and sentenced! It brought me to my knees chuckling!:Dyou must be thinking of his mother and father, Vasusdeva and Devaki...they were arrested and incarcerated in prison on charges of political agitation seeking overthrow of government by association with future unborn son

i don't think such charges and arrest by police would have been brought against Krishna...or anyone that age for stealing butter being that he was barely past being called a toddler

my though though are similar to yours...the pastimes of Krishna stealing butter often bring a chuckle and joy to my heart

ys, Chief

[sleeping jiva]

hello, everybody

I don't remember the exact words, but Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu said that one should be more huble than grass and more tolerant than trees while chanting mahamantra. Those words are really helpful. In that way you are able very easily attain a state of mind, where you are devoid of hatred and jealousy.Just wanted to make you know :)

chant this:

[Jaganathadasa]

Thank you for posting that Sleeping Jiva.

Yes this comes from Sri Caitanya Caritamrata and states



["One who thinks himself lower than the grass, who is more tolerant than a tree, and who does not expect personal honor yet is always prepared to give all respect to others can very easily always chant the holy name of the Lord." (Adi-lila 17.31)]


:)

[sleeping jiva]

thanks, prabhu ! :)
oh right. I think it is also mentioned in Bhagavadgita in the purports of His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada. I just bumped into free download of Complete works of him. Everyone interested, check it out:
http://wald.heim.at/sherwood/530002/

[ChiefCowpie]

Gauranga by Swami Sivananda

Talks to Washerman

Gauranga with his companions came to a washerman who was beating the clothes upon a piece of plank. He asked the washerman to say 'Hari Bol!'. The washerman thought that the mendicants had come to beg alms from him. He said to Gauranga, "Oh mendicant, I am very poor. I have nothing to give you. Gauranga said, "I do not want anything from you. Say 'Hari Bol!' at least once". The washerman refused. He thought he would be required to pay something to the mendicant. He said, "I am very poor. I cannot give up beating the cloth in order to utter the Name you have given to me". Gauranga said, "I shall do the beating of the cloth. Please say, 'Hari Bol!'". The washerman said, 'Hari Bol!'. Then Gauranga asked him to repeat the same twice. The washerman repeated twice. Then the fire of devotion started. The washerman repeated the name unasked. He began to dance in ecstasy raising both his hands high.

The wife of the washerman brought some food to the washerman. She saw her husband dancing with uplifted hands uttering: "Hari Bol! Hari Bol!". She also noticed that her husband had no consciousness of his surroundings. She tried to rouse him by calling him loudly but in vain. She was frightened. She ran to the village and said to the relatives and neighbours, "A ghost has taken possession of my husband. Please help me. Drive away the ghost from him". They all proceeded immediately to see the washerman. He was still dancing in ecstasy. They were afraid to go near him. At last a bold man caught hold of the washerman and tried to stop his dancing. He too caught the contagion and began to dance with the washerman uttering, "Hari Bol! Hari Bol!". He embraced the onlookers. They too caught the contagion and danced in ecstasy. The people of the whole village were affected. Gauranga enjoyed the scene for some time and left the place.

[Vae Victus]

hare krishna is the eldest religion in the world. It came in the form of Vedas 5000 years ago. The goal is to love Krishna, the Supreme Personality of Godhea.d I mean not just saying that, but actually feeling that is the point. In fact, hare krishna isn't religion at all, because it doesn apply any dogmas on people. The only point is to find out by yourself, that you are not this material body and this world is temporary and full of threefold miseries :death, illness, old age.
the best method how to obtain the state, where you can love Sri Krishna is to chant mahamantra. it goes like this:
This is not the middle ages. When are people actually going to work towards improving society instead of pretending they know they're going to some kind of heaven after they die? Even if there is a god, heaven, everything--why do you have to pretend that the material world doesn't matter to you? What can you possible gain from this massive self-trickery? Is it actually so comforting to you to just the dismiss slavery, torture, etc. etc. etc. of fellow emotional creatures instead of confront it?

If we all believed, and stated firmly that we believe, that absolute equality should be fundamental, we might actually start getting somewhere--no classes, no kings, no prisons, no unemployment, nothing. But it's never going to happen while even one person looks at exploitation from across the national boundaries and thinks, "Well, it happens. At least they'll be happy when they're dead."

[Jaganathadasa]

Vae Victus. Interesting post.

Personally it gives all the reasons I got away from extreme left-wing politics and became a devotee.

When are people actually going to work towards improving society instead of pretending they know they're going to some kind of heaven after they die? You clearly believe that everybody who believes in God does nothing to help their fellow wo/man. Devotees feed hundreds of thousands of the worlds most needy people everyday. Whom do you feed? What exactly do you do for the starving, the homeless etc? Sell them a political newspaper to line their cardboard box with for insulation? These desperate people you presume to fight for....did they ask you to? You can't be one of them...you have a computer.

PLEASE READ THIS

http://www.ffl.org/html/emergency.html

You also are under the supposition that everybody pretends they 'know they're going to some kind of heaven' etc. I could say that you pretend you believe in this idilic society we will all live in in the post-revolutionary world. I would add here that history disproves you and that if people in general spent more time being spiritual, searched for the meaning of life, forgot about what happened yesterday and ignored what might happen tomorrow, and concentrated on the right now (because in reality the right now is all there is) then the world could be changed for the better without millions dying in a glorious and righteous revolution.

Is it actually so comforting to you to just the dismiss slavery, torture, etc. etc. etc. of fellow emotional creatures instead of confront it?
I have seen more action by people of ALL faiths and spirituality to addressing these situations than any revolutionary gung-ho merchant who is apparently willing to kill and die for the wonderous revolution that will set us all free. Again all history has shown us is the opposite to this.

If we all believed, and stated firmly that we believe, that absolute equality should be fundamental, we might actually start getting somewhere--no classes, no kings, no prisons, no unemployment, nothing. But it's never going to happen while even one person looks at exploitation from across the national boundaries and thinks, "Well, it happens. At least they'll be happy when they're dead."With due respect it is obvious from this statement that you have very very little understanding of the subject matter of this particular thread. When I considered myself a revolutionary ( by word AND deed) I spent as much time studying the enemy as I did my own illogical dogma. Atleast that way I had some ammunition that was relevant.

I honestly do wish you the best and hope you find the revolution you are looking for. In fact there are many going on right now, in the poorest areas of the world away from the comfort of your nice house and computer. Perhaps you should go see what its like? I did. It wasn't what I was expecting.

Best Wishes,

Jaganathadasa.

[Jaganathadasa]

Jaya CHIEF COWPIE!

NITAI-GAURANGA! NITAI-GAURANGA!

:)

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

Chief Cowpie, yes he is my siksa guru.

SvgGrdnBeauty. Dont know if anyone has posted this before but you may find it interesting, enjoy!

Many people often wonder what is the view of Lord Jesus Christ in the Krishna consciousness movement.


Srila Prabhupada, the foremost exponent of the Krishna
consciousness movement explains that Jesus is Krishna's representative, son of God, and spiritual master.

Below are excerpts from Srila Prabhupada's books, lectures, and conversations about Jesus Christ and his
relationship with Krsna.

"If one loves Krishna, he must love Lord Jesus also. And if one perfectly loves Jesus he must love Krishna too. If he says, "Why shall I love Krishna? I shall love Jesus," then he has no knowledge. And if one says, "Why shall I love Jesus? I shall love Krishna", then he has no knowledge either. If one understands Krishna, then he will understand Jesus. If one understands Jesus, you'll understand Krishna too"
(Srila Prabhupada - Room conversation with Allen Ginsberg, May 12, 1969 / Columbus - Ohio)

As Lord Jesus Christ said, we should hate the sin, not the sinner. That is a very nice statement, because the sinner is under illusion. He is mad. If we hate him, how can we deliver him? Therefore, those who are advanced devotees, who are really servants of God, do not hate anyone. When Lord Jesus Christ was being crucified, he said, "My God, forgive them. They know not what they do." This is the proper attitude of an advanced devotee. He understands that the conditioned souls cannot be hated, because they have become mad due to their materialistic way of thinking. In this Krsna consciousness movement, there is no question of hating anyone. Everyone is welcomed to come and chant Hare Krsna, take krsna-prasada, listen to the philosophy of Bhagavad-gita, and try to rectify material, conditioned life. This is the essential program of Krsna consciousness.
(Path of Perfection Chapter 3: Learning How to See God)


Christian, Muhammadan, Hindu-it doesn't matter. If he is simply speaking on behalf of God, he is a guru. Lord Jesus Christ, for instance. He canvassed people, saying, "Just try to love God." Anyone-it doesn't matter who-be he Hindu, Muslim, or Christian, is a guru if he convinces people to love God. That is the test. The guru never says, "I am God," or "I will make you God." The real guru says, "I am a servant of God, and I will make you a servant of God also." It doesn't matter how the guru is dressed. As Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, "Whoever can impart knowledge about Krsna is a spiritual master." A genuine spiritual master simply tries to get people to become devotees of Krsna, or God. He has no other business.
(Science of Self Realization Chapter 2: Choosing a Spiritual Master)

So Lord Jesus Christ said, "My Lord, hallowed be Thy name." He wants to glorify the name of the Lord. And some people says that there is no name of God. How? If Lord Jesus Christ says "Hallowed by Thy name," there must be name. The name is there, but he did not pronounce it because the people at that time will not be able to understand or maybe some reason, but he says there is name. So we are making this propaganda, Krsna consciousness movement, the "Hallowed by Thy name. My Lord Krsna, the Personality of Godhead, let Your holy name be glorified." This is our movement. It is not a sectarian...(Lecture: Bhagavad Gita 3.27 Melbourne June 27, 1974)

Sometimes Sri Krsna descends Himself, and sometimes He sends His representative. The major religions of the world-Christian, Hindu, Buddhist and Moslem-believe in some supreme authority or personality coming down from the kingdom of God. In the Christian religion, Jesus Christ claimed to be the son of God and to be coming from the kingdom of God to reclaim conditioned souls. As followers of Bhagavad-gita, we admit this claim to be true. So basically there is no difference of opinion. In details there may be differences due to differences in culture, climate and people, but the basic principle remains the same-that is, God or His representatives come to reclaim conditioned souls.
(Raja Vidya Chapter 6 :Knowledge of Krsna's Appearance and Activities)

Just like Lord Jesus Christ. He was so badly treated and still he was thinking, "Father, they do not know what they are doing. Please excuse." This is suhrdah. He is praying to God This is sadhu, mahatma. Suhrdah prasanta. Not that... In India there are examples like Haridasa Thakura, Prahlada Maharaja. And the Western countries also, Lord Jesus Christ, he is saktyavesa-avatara, God's son. And he tolerated so much. These are the examples of mahatma. Don't misunderstand that we are preaching that mahatmas are only in India. No. By the order of the Supreme Personality of Godhead there are mahatmas even amongst the birds, even amongst the beasts, even amongst the lower than animals. Because this Krsna consciousness movement is going on in different places, in different circumstances.(Srimad Bhagavatam 5.5.3 --vrndavana Oct 25, 1976)


Conversation with Father Emmanuel (http://www.harekrishnatemple.com/bhakta/emmanuel.html)- In 1974, near ISKCON's center in Frankfurt am Main, West Germany, Srila Prabhupada and several of his disciples took a morning walk with father Emmanuel Jungclaussen, a Benedictine monk from Niederalteich Monastery. Noticing that Srila Prabhupada was carrying meditation beads similar to the rosary, Father Emmanuel explained that he also chanted a constant prayer: "Lord Jesus Christ, be merciful unto us." The following conversation ensued.

Conversation with Cardinal Danielou (http://www.harekrishnatemple.com/bhakta/cardinal.html)- "Thou Shalt Not Kill" or "Thou Shalt Not Murder"?
At a monastic retreat near Paris, in July of 1973, Srila Prabhupada talked with Cardinal Jean Danielou: "... the Bible does not simply say, `Do not kill the human being.' It says broadly, `Thou shalt not kill.'... why do you interpret this to suit your own convenience?"

From Perfect Questions, Perfect Answers (http://www.harekrishnatemple.com/bhakta/perfect.html) - Discussions between Peace Corps Worker Bob Cohen and His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

Jesus Christ Was a Guru (http://www.harekrishnatemple.com/bhakta/jesusguru.html) - The spiritual leader of the Hare Krsna movement here recognizes Lord Jesus Christ as "the son of God, the representative of God... our guru... our spiritual master," yet he has some sharp words for those who currently claim to be Christ's followers...

A devotee of Krsna is friendly to everyone. Therefore it is said here that he has no enemy (nirvairah). How is this? A devotee situated in Krsna consciousness knows that only devotional service to Krsna can relieve a person from all the problems of life. He has personal experience of this, and therefore he wants to introduce this system, Krsna consciousness, into human society. There are many examples in history of devotees of the Lord who risked their lives for the spreading of God consciousness. The favorite example is Lord Jesus Christ. He was crucified by the nondevotees, but he sacrificed his life for spreading God consciousness. Of course, it would be superficial to understand that he was killed. Similarly, in India also there are many examples, such as Thakura Haridasa and Prahlada Maharaja. Why such risk? Because they wanted to spread Krsna consciousness, and it is difficult. A Krsna conscious person knows that if a man is suffering it is due to his forgetfulness of his eternal relationship with Krsna. Therefore, the highest benefit one can render to human society is relieving one's neighbor from all material problems. In such a way, a pure devotee is engaged in the service of the Lord. Now, we can imagine how merciful Krsna is to those engaged in His service, risking everything for Him. Therefore it is certain that such persons must reach the supreme planet after leaving the body.
(Chapter 11 Bhagavad gita text 55 purport) To learn more about Lord Jesus Christ from a Vaisnava perspective please visit this
nice website done by Prthu das Adhikari : Jesus: A Ray of Visnu (http://www.iskcon.net/oregon/jesus/)





Hare Krishna!



(http://www.harekrishnatemple.com/bhakta/chapter26.html)
Thank you for this reading...I finally did get to read it. I had once read the conversation with Srilla Prahupada and Father Emmanuel...but I enjoyed reading it again as well as the rest of the liturature that you had posted. Indeed most Christians are blinded by what we are taught (it is mostly Catholics...I know because I myself have been brought up Catholic but I have visited both Lutheren and Methodist programs and they are a bit closer to Srilla Prahupada's point than the Catholic church...). I have definetely saved them...it is indeed to explain to others my interest in the Krsna Consiousness movement but still insist that I am Christian and that it is indeed the same. Thank you once again.

[Jaganathadasa]

SvgGrdnBeauty. My pleasure. :)






"Peaceful People In Kingdom"
Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.10.6
Mayapura, June 21, 1973

Lecture by His Divine Grace A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

listen (http://prabhupadavani.org/Bhagavatam/RAMfiles2/SB219.ram)


(extract below)

So in Maharaja Yudhisthira's time, the government, the government was responsible also to keep people peaceful, without any anxiety. That is government. Without any anxiety. And now the government means full of anxieties. You do not know how to sleep peacefully at night. You have to keep watchmen, just see, enemies are coming or not, with torchlight. You see. This is our position, full of anxieties. Even we cannot sleep at night peacefully. This is government. And here you see, compare the government -- no anxiety, no anxiety. Just compare. So what is the use of this rascal government? The rascal government must be there because we are rascals. You cannot complain against the government. Because we select. It is the days of democracy. We elect our representative. So why you should, I mean to say, blame the government? You have created the government. You have sent your representative, a rascal, another big rascal. You are rascal, and another big rascal, you have voted; so how you can expect good government? You send only big rascals. That's all.

So there cannot be. That is stated in the Srimad-Bhagavatam, that in the Kali-yuga, all the people will be rascals, sudras. Simply by manipulation, if one gets vote, he captures the governmental power. Sudra. He's a sudra. He is not a ksatriya like Maharaja Yudhisthira, trained up ksatriya. He is a rascal, third-class man, fourth-class man. He gets the vote and we give vote. So how we can be happy? How we can be carefree or anxiety-free or disease-free? It is not possible. Therefore if the people in general, they become Krsna conscious, they become trained up in Krsna consciousness, they understand the value of life, how to live, then they can send good representative. Krsna conscious man. Then the government will be nice. Without becoming... Harav abhaktasya kuto mahad-gunah. If people are not Krsna conscious, their so-called qualification has no value. Kuto mahad-gunah. There cannot be value. There cannot be any good qualification of a person who is not Krsna conscious, who is not a devotee. This is our conclusion. We have got some test tubes. We can study man. He may become a very good scholar, very good politician, very big minister, but we test whether he has got any sense of Krsna consciousness. If he's not, immediately I understand that "Here is a rascal number one." That's all. We have got test tube, how much he is advanced in Krsna consciousness. If he's not, then he is grouped immediately in four groups: duskrtina, means constantly committing sinful activities; mudha, rascal; naradhama, lowest of the mankind; mayaya apahrta-jnana, although educated with high degrees, his knowledge has been taken away; asuram bhavam asritah, and demon.




na mam duskrtino mudhah
prapadyante naradhamah
mayayapahrta-jnana
asuram bhavam asritah
[Bg. 7.15]




Immediately we classify, "Here is a rascal number one, lowest of the mankind," or "always engaged in sinful activities," or "whatever education he has got, that is useless, because his real knowledge..."

Just like Professor Kotovsky, such a big professor, he says, "There is no life after death." He's a rascal number one. What is the meaning of this education? He does not know that the soul is eternal, and therefore Bhagavad-gita teaches first, dehino 'smin yatha dehe kaumaram yauvanam... [Bg. 2.13]. Na hanyate hanyamane sarire [Bg. 2.20]. "First of all understand this: soul is eternal; you are eternal; you do not die, after the annihilation..." This is the first education. And these rascals, they say there is no life after death. So how much educated they are you can understand. They are all rascals. And you may open big, big colleges, institution, providing some rascal professor, rascal student, and beg the whole life, and sacrifice everything. It is useless. Srama eva hi kevalam, simply wasting time.




dharmah svanusthitah pumsam
visvaksena-kathasu yah
notpadayed yadi ratim
srama eva hi kevalam
[SB 1.2.8]




Srama eva hi kevalam. You can do your duties very nicely, very good, dharmah svanusthitah, but if you do not develop your, I mean to say, attachment for Krsna... Vasudeva-katha rucih. "Oh, here krsna-katha is going on. Topics on Krsna is going on. Let me hear it." Just like here. We are talking of Krsna; nobody is coming. Nobody is coming. Only few selected. Vasudeva-katha rucih. There is no taste for hearing krsna-katha. So such kind of education, advancement of civilization, is srama eva hi kevalam, simply wasting time. And if you waste your time in such foolish activity, then there will be anxiety, there will be disease, there will be enemies, there will be disturbance -- everything, one after another, one after another. Natural disturbance, disturbance by other living creatures, disturbance by your body. So this world will become hell. This is the position.

So just compare the present governmental situation and the time... A king is supposed to be responsible for the citizen's peaceful life, no anxiety, no disease. Adhayo vyadhayah. That is king. Just like one brahmana approached Lord Ramacandra that "In the presence of father the son has died. You are responsible. There must be something wrong in Your kingdom." His son died. That is natural, that son lives, father dies. This is natural death. "And what is this? The father is living and son is dying?" So king was so much responsible, even the death must be systematic. There should be no anxiety. There should be no disease. There should be no scarcity, no famine, no natural disturbance. This is government. This is government. Just try to understand the ideal government during Maharaja Yudhisthira's time. Not only Maharaja Yudhisthira, all the kings. Rajarsayah. Imam rajarsayo viduh. They were all great rsis, although they were ksatriyas. Brahmana and ksatriya, they used to guide the general people. The high caste means who would guide the people nicely. The brahmana by their Vedic knowledge, perfect knowledge, pathana-pathana yajana-yajana dana-pratigraha. By high learning, they would... They were not interested for capturing the government. No. They had no time. But there was consulting body. Even Yudhisthira Maharaja's time, there was consulting body, all the kings. The brahmanas and the rsis, they would form a consulting body and give advice to the king: "My dear king, do like this.' And they will abide. Just like head. Head. Head gives the instruction to the arms. Not the arm gives instruction to the head. Head. Brain. Mukha-bahuru-padebhyah.

So brahmana means this portion, head, brain. And ksatriya means this portion, arm. And vaisya means this portion, belly. And sudra means this, leg. So no part is unimportant. Every part is important for upkeep of the body. But comparative study, this part is more important. If my head is cut off, then all other parts may remain. It will not act. Similarly, at the present moment there is no brahmana. All sudras, simply legs. If you keep the legs of the body, what is the value of this body? There must be head. Everything must be there. Everything must be there. The head must be there, arms must be there, the abdomen must be there, the legs must be there. Then it is complete body. Similarly, this scientific division, catur-varnyam maya srstam guna-karma-vibhagasah [Bg. 4.13], the division of the human society according to quality, the brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra. Krsna says, maya srstam: "This is My creation for upkeep of the social system."

So there is necessity of the sudras and there is necessity of the brahmana. There is necessity of the ksatriya. Everyone is required to do, to function, in his particular position. Then the society will be nadhayo vyadhayah klesah. No more anxiety and no more disease. Everyone is peaceful, cool-minded, cool-brained. Then chant Hare Krsna without any disturbance and go back to home back, to Godhead.

Thank you very much. (end)

[ChiefCowpie]

i take great issue with Srila Prabhupada's anti-demoratic government stance...perhaps in an era of enlightened leaders such as Maharaja Yuddhistira or even in Tibet (until the invasion of China) under the guidance of Dalai Lama, such systems would work but not so today where so many are awakening, the input of the all is the way to go

[sleeping jiva]

thank you, prabhu
for your great article of His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada! I enjoyed it a lot and you made a good choice how to explain what one can do against suffering in this world. Simply, look inside of you, the answer is already there. You won't find yourself "outside".


Dictatorship and government of one is still present. Democracy is a fraud. If people stopped thinking only for themselves, then the real democracy would be possible. We have choice? No, we have not. They say: "Here is your choice!" What kind of choice is that? People are brainwashed on a daily basis by television, movies, music, radio and internet as well. Everything is advertisment, commercionalized. I took a class about media and I've learnt that ads in newspapers, billboards, on tv...wherever, they don't serve to sell product. It doesn't work like": Buy this product you see it and then you buy it no. People are not that stupid. Advertisment is selling way of life! When you think about it, that's like a religion!! And way more powerful than other religions. We are exposed to hudreds of ads daily! -that has been proven.
They all work together, all companies -that's why you are not able to find the big dictator, there's no any!
The strategy is to convince you that you have your opinion, they emphasize freedom, your own choice and all these lies are nothing but manipulation. The problem is alienation of words. People are too much attached to words. They think that whoever says: Freedom, he actually mean it. We can see that in Krishna consciousness too. You say God, but people understand their own vision of God. Words are meaningless as long as you don't do as you say. People should verify every word, look for its real meaning, they should think first before accepting. They use to say: "No, I don't want to be a slave to any kind of religion, I am free." But it means nothing -empty words, because he's conditioned anyway by three modes of material nature. So he is slave. Freedom is a state, which cannot be lost. We can't own freedom! If you're afraid that you're gonna loose your freedom -what freedom is that? Illusion.
The same thing can be said about democracy. We don't know. Is it democratic just because we feel good? We call it democracy, but democracy means to freely vote for a candidate we support. Freely. What is the freedom, if we are lied to from every corner of this society? We think we are free, but we serve maya instead.
haribol!

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

Unfortunetely what you say is true. There is so much that is beyond our control because of the giant influence of Maya on our society...indeed it gets to the point where you just want to scream...there's a girl I know who is very opinionated (so opinionated that she had me brainwashed that I was too innocent for my own good...but that is another story for another time...) and she had told me that my desire to go to other countries and see the world was BS and unpatriotic...and I asked her why and she told me that it was because the world doesn't like the US and that if I went out there that I would be supporting something that didn't like us...now last time I checked...we were all human and it didn't matter... Last time I checked...I had decided that I would be just a traveler and an observer...seeing what is without all the BS...the world and its people as they are...I'm becoming an archaeologist/anthropologist because I need to see the world as it is...not as they tell me... but that is an example of brainwash...actually I have so many more instances of this...my sister the other day asked me if I knew that Mary Kate Olsen was anorexic...why should I care...yes it is sad...yes she is human but as I looked up from my book about Krishna Consciousness...I asked myself what led her to that...brainwash...that we need to be that perfect body image...but if we are not our bodies...it doesn't matter, does it?

And about the democracy...no it is not true democrasy...not at all. If it were true democracy I doubt that we would be in a war over oil...but then again it depends how much of the US is truly and completely blinded by Maya (I mean to the point of not being able to see a centimeter in front of them)...now I'm not saying I'm perfect...I'm far from... I am affected by Maya...I eat meat (though I am trying not to so much anymore)...but I at least know that its there and to watch out for it...those of us here know its out there and to watch for it...if we didn't we wouldn't be ranting about the existance o