hare krishna

[ChiefCowpie]

damn, lotta posts, didnt read any, just let the thread die, it seems its been here long enough. its time has come.
This thread has already died many times only to reincarnate. Transmigration of the thread.

[BlackBillBlake]

damn, lotta posts, didnt read any, just let the thread die, it seems its been here long enough. its time has come.
We've only just begun!

Hard to arrive at a judgement if you don't read any of the posts though.

Let it live!

Hare Krishna!

[ChiefCowpie]

BBB, the term Avadhuta is also used to describe a self-realized soul who does not follow any particular rules and regulations of shastra. Nityananda ( Mahaprabhu's co-avatara) was considered an avadhuta.

[ChiefCowpie]

The following is an extract from an unpublished work entitled, "A False Sense of Insecurity" by Pitambara dasa. In this extract Pitambara describes his first meeting with Sacidulal Baba. In a subsequent meeting Sacidulal Baba gave Pitambara babaji vesa and siddha pranali with ekadasa bhava for both vraj & navadvipa lila. From Pitambara's descriptions it seems that Sacidulal is most certainly a siddha.

On arriving in Navadvipa I bathed in the Ganges. I felt Mahaprabhu watching my every move. Despite attracting attention, being the only foreigner around, I felt I was home.

I found my way to Haribol Kutir and was surprised to find a small asram with one Bengali devotee living there. I expected a big asram with many devotees. This added to the marvel of Prabhuji [Premananda dasa from Gaudiya Vedanta Samiti in Mathura] mentioning the place. I was sent to another, nearby temple so I could speak to an English speaking devotee. I met Sri Visnu das Maharaja, who, immediately I could tell was waiting for me. He asked me questions pertaining to my visit, but deep down I could feel that he knew Prabhuji had sent me and that he was about to shelter me as a favor between devotees. He did. I told him I was a ‘babaji’ and had no money.

After a few days I found the author of the book who gave me directions to meet his guru, Sacidulal Babaji Maharaja, and the next day I set off on the two hour journey to his small temple in the forest. I expected only to bow my head and depart, I knew he couldn’t speak English or Hindi. Krsna arranged some guy to lead me through the beautiful tropical forest, passed simple village homes to the temple which was definitely not traceable by the map I had. The small temple had deities of Gadadhara and Gaura (Chaitanya Mahaprabhu), .

Babaji Maharaja came out to greet me as if he had been awaiting my arrival. He bowed down to me and touched my feet. Not out of duty, or sarcasm, (as some do), but out of real humility. It felt like I had never witnessed humility till that point. This ninety seven year old saint, a realized soul on the highest platform of consciousness was bowing his head in honor because a devotee from Notts had shown up at his temple. It wasn’t a show. I felt completely beautiful as he did it. Not great, but beautiful. It was obvious that I was the nobody and he the great soul, but his greatness was such that he felt himself to be the nobody and he had me feel I was a great (beautiful) soul. I almost forget to offer my respects, I was in such a state of shock through admiration for him.

I fell in love with him. His eyes were like two pools of sweet, cooling water. His enthusiasm for life continuously obvious. I managed to relate through a Hindi/Bengali speaker that I had come to him because of a book written by Pandit, who he had not seen for two years. He was so happy. He burst into tears and peered with wonder towards his Lordships who were gazing at us from the altar.
I was left alone with him as he decided to write a letter to Pandit. I was happy just to watch him, to feel his mood, to relish his divine mannerisms.

Once he started to write the letter, he lost himself to anything else. He wrote one sentence and then went over it again and again, his pen bouncing over the words to the rhythm of the mood in which they were wrote. He changed the sentences again and again, completely transforming them into new sentences by the fourth change. Then again he bounced his pen across the paper, giving a murmur to its rhythm. Even if it was only a shopping list, it merited the status of a song by the very manner in which it was composed. Reading over his words, he broke down in tears and glanced again towards Mahaprabhu in ecstatic disbelief. He sobbed openly in front of me, in front of his Lords, in front of anyone who was coming and going, in front of the world – he was like a naked baby, weeping without thought of controlling; no ego.

Then back to the letter. I started to wonder if he would ever finish it. He was stoned. Crossing out text, adding more, bouncing the pen over the paper, humming the words to himself, sobbing, starting again from the beginning. Occasionally he would hold his hand up, gesturing that he will ‘just be another minute.’ Two and a half hours later he was pleased with his composition. Then, on a fresh sheet of paper, he re-wrote the letter in beautiful hand-writing. That took another hour and half. After four hours, he noticed I was sat in front of him and looking at the clock became shocked at the time. He shouted over to an old lady who lived in a small shack next to his, and she carried pots of food to the temple room.

He was disgusted with himself for not having fed me. I had forgotten about food. The four hours watching him write seemed like four minutes.

He sat me down and placed a big plate in front of me and filled it with all the preparations from the dishes. Then he squatted in front of me and delightedly gestured that I should eat. I felt comfortable even though he was staring right at me. I ate a little subji and chappati and he immediately gave me extra subji and another chappati. I ate a pakora (fried ball) and again he reimbursed me with two more. I cracked up laughing. Was I ever going to finish this meal? My plate was becoming fuller as I ate. I laughed at the attention he gave to my eating, as if he himself was experiencing the pleasure of tasting the delicious food. I realized that he was relishing more than me. He really wanted me to enjoy the meal to my full satisfaction. And I did. I had observed this mood of selflessness before when Maharaja [Haridas Sastri Maharaja] would sit me down and feed me sweets and pancakes and his own kichadi.

When you feel this love, you feel you have no duty to return any money or favor. Instead a natural desire comes to serve him. Not out of duty, but naturally. That is how love comes. By being with pure devotees and experiencing their love, naturally you desire to give them your love, then naturally you become like them. If you spend time in a pub, you come away smelling of beer and cigarettes. If you spend time in a beauty parlor, you come away smelling of perfume. Selfishness is swallowed by the selfless saint, therefore sadhu sanga is the most desirable attainment in spiritual life.


Shaped through and through by Gaura's love--
that is a Gaudiya Vaishnav.

[Revenant Phantasm]

Read it?! crazy ass shit, 1257 posts!

[BlackBillBlake]

BBB, the term Avadhuta is also used to describe a self-realized soul who does not follow any particular rules and regulations of shastra. Nityananda ( Mahaprabhu's co-avatara) was considered an avadhuta.
Thanks for the clarification Chief. And for the extract from Pitambara das' book.

Dear Revenant Phantasm - you can read as much or as little as you choose.

Hare Krishna!

[ChiefCowpie]

D.C Sen's stuff from Prema-Vilas on Jagai and Madhai..

:-
"That Nityananada was an Avadhuta is unquestionable; he is called so in so many places throughout the biographical literature. [See for example, CC Adi 5:139, Madhya 12:186, Bhaktiratnakara 7:171, CBh Adi 2:134.]

The Avadhuta (the "pure ones"), says Bagchi were a branch growing from the trunk of Mahayana Buddhism, others being the Natha, Sahajiya, and Baul sects. [see P.C. Bagchi's chapter on the religions of Bengal in the Dacca University 'History of Bengal', I, chap. xiii, 423ff.; Charlotte Vaudeville in a personal communication has pointed out that the Nathas are often called Avadhuta.]

Being an Avadhuta is anything but reprehensible, even to the most strict of orthodox Vaishnavas. The Mahanirvava-tantra describes the ideals of one class of Avadhutas (the hamsa Avadhutas) in this way:

"Let them not seek the company of women, nor to acquire property; let them keep themselves apart from desire, and from prohibitive rules and injunctions; let them abandon the signs, symbols, and requirements of their castes and those of the househoulder; let them seek the fourth stage of the spirit [turiya-the state of the pure impersonal Brahman], having no desire for the things of the world. (Mahanirvana-tantra 8:283, quoted in the commentary on CC Madhya 3:84)

The impression of the extreme purity and asceticism of the Avadhutas is heightened by the expansion of this passage by Radhagovinda Nath in his commentary. He says that there are four types of Avadhutas: Brahmavadhuta, Saivavadhuta, Bhaktavadhuta, and Hamsavadhuta, Nityananda was a member of the fourth group, the best. They do not preform sadhana with women, nor honor any prohibitive rules."

Copied from Ed Dimock's 'The Place of The Hidden Moon'

[ChiefCowpie]

QUOTE One day Lord Nityananda was returning to Lord Caitanya's house in the evening after moving about town the whole day. The two rogues went and halted Him. Jagai and Madhai shouted out, "who is it?" Nityananda replied, "I am going to Nimai Pandita's house." In a drunken state they commanded, "What is Your name?" Lord Nityananda replied, "My name is Avadhuta."

Lord Nityananda lost in the mood of a young boy began to converse with the two drunks performing His lila. He had already made up His mind that He will deliver them and so He had purposely chosen this time to come this way. When Madhai heard the name "Avadhuta" he picked up a piece of broken earthen wine pot and seething with rage he threw it at Nityananda. The stone struck Nityananda on the forehead and it started bleeding. Lord Nityananda quietly meditated on Govinda, Krsna.

ke re ke re boli’ DAke jagAi mAdhAi
nityAnanda balena—prabhura bADi jAi
madyera vikSepe kahe—kIbA nAma tora
nityAnaNDa kahe—avadhUta nAma more...
avadhUta nAma zunI mAdhai kupiA
mArila prabhura zire muTuki tuliA

When they heard Nitai chanting, Jagai and Madhai called out, “Who goes there?” Nityananda answered, “I am going to Mahaprabhu’s house.” Easily irritated in his drunkenness, Madhai asked, “What’s your name?” Nitai said, “My name is Avadhuta.” ...Hearing this name, Madhai angrily struck Nitai’s forehead with an earthen pot. (2.13.174-5, 178)

So I am wondering why Madhai got so angry at hearing the name "avadhuta." I'd have to go back and read the entire Chaitanya Bhagavata again, to figure out if Nityananda was known by that name throughout the town and by Jagai and Madhai, or whether it was avadhutas in general that somehow were the object of prejudice.

In verse 181, Jagai calls him a "foreigner," which may have had something to do with it, but in 182, Jagai says, "He is a great avadhuta, so you should not hit him again. What benefit will come of beating up on a sannyasi?" Indicating that it was a general name, not a personal one. So maybe he was just angry at Nityananda for not giving him a straight answer. He asked, "Who goes there?" and Nitai doesn't answer the question, but says "I am going to Mahaprabhu's house." Madhai starts getting mad and asks, "I asked you who you are." Nityananda still does not give a straight answer and says, "Avadhuta." Though this should be adequate identification.

[ChiefCowpie]

"Sri Nityananda Prabhu was considered an Avadhuta sannyasi, although it is said that he never formally adopted the sannyasa order. Avadhutas ("the pure ones") are usually associated with the Saivite tradition, but there is a little known branch of Vaisnava sannyasis known as turiyatit avadhuta. They are described in the Narada parivajaka upanisad. Divinely eccentric, these Avadhutas sannyasis were know to go about naked ( the Caitanya bhagavata and bhakti ratnakara both include passages depicting Sri Nityananda Prabhu in public without clothes), are at peace with the world, are indifferent to pain and sorrow, and have a pronounced disregard for rules, regulations, and caste observances. Several, if not all, of these characteristics could be detected in Sri Nityananda prabhu. His behavior was so erratic that some people would up and run merely at the sound of his name. ( Caitanya bhagavata, madhya 3.169) indeed, even Advaita Acarya jokingly referred to him as sahaje pagala " a natural madman" (Cc,madhya,3.97) "

Ekesaura dasa

[ChiefCowpie]

Nityananda after Sri Chaitanyas Passing

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

After the passing of Sri Chaitanya in Nilachala, hearing the news, Nityananda declared to his followers that he would spread Krishna nama among all the people, whether Brahmins or Chandalas. There will not be any caste-bar, Chandala, Yavana, all will join in the Sankirtan. His historic declaration just after the passing of Sri Chaitanya was that, the whole of Bengal will be overwhelmed with the spirit of Vaishnavism.

This was the ideal of the 'Nabadwip School' that became manifest when Nityananda came to Bengal under Mahaprabhu's request.

Krishna das’s Chaitanya Charitamrita did not come to Bengal until one hundred years after Nityananda’s movement there. However, Brindaban Das wrote in detail about the social and religious movement which Nityananda started in Bengal, and that his son Virachandra completed. During these years 1515 to 1615, the movement of Nityananda was prominent over all of Bengal.

In the 13th century, saint Jnana dev suffered social excommunication because his father was a monk and later on he married and had a life of a householder. In a similar way, when in the 16th century, Nityananda being a monk, married at the time two sisters, the orthodox Vaishnavas of Nabadwip and Vrindavan did not care for it much.

In his book Nityananda Charita, Janakinath Pal wrote that Sri Chaitanya twice advised Nityananda to go to Nabadwip, once to spread the religion and second to marry and become a householder. But Sri Chaitanya himself left his wife and became an ascetic. All his important disciples like Haridas, Sanatan Gosvami, Rupa Gosvami, etc., all left their vast wealth and family life and became ascetics. In these circumstances, how Sri Chaitanya advised Nityananda to marry and become a householder is something seemingly contradictory. Brindaban Das wrote that Sri Chaitanya advised Nityananda to spread his religion in the whole of Bengal and among all the sections of society.

Nityananda’s dynamic role as leader of the Chaitanya movement in Bengal during the absence of Sri Chaitanya made him immortal in the history of Gaudiya Vaishnavism. He made it the religion of the common masses. He spread the religion among the ordinary householders of Bengal. His aim was to spread the faith to the illiterate common masses of Bengal. His movement was not for the intellectuals but for the poor, the illiterate, the helpless common masses in medieval Bengal. His method to spread the religion was different from the method of the Gosvamis of Vrindavan. Nityananda gave up the robes of a monk and started wearing costly silk dresses and gold ornaments studded with precious stones. He used to go to the houses of his rich non-brahmin disciples on horseback or in palanquins like a general or king. He married at an advanced age and had a luxurious life like a rich householder.

The Gosvamis of Braj followed the pure austere life, their method of preaching was very contrast to the Navadwip school at that time in history.

Nityananda was the leader of a massive movement while the Gosvamis were highly intellectual philosophers who wrote massive amounts of books on rasa culture of Radha Krishna. While the Vrndavana school insisted on celibacy and rigid austerity, the Nabadwip school allowed the teachers or Gosvamis there to marry and have a luxurious life. Jayananda wrote in his Chaitanya Mangal that the Mohantas and the rich Gosvamis of Bengal school at that time used to travel in palanquins, wearing silk dresses.

While Nityananda and his son Virachandra used to ride horses while they were visiting the houses of the rich disciples, only a half a century before Sri Chaitanya traveled on foot from Braja to Rameswaram.

Excerpts from Chaitanya Movement in Eastern Bengal, Aloka Lahiri.

[ChiefCowpie]

BBB, hope this gives us a fuller understanding of the Avadhuta order.

[BlackBillBlake]

BBB, hope this gives us a fuller understanding of the Avadhuta order.
Hare Krishna!

Thanks Chief - that is all very interesting stuff. i had not come across the term Avadhuta in relation to Vaishnavism previously, but only in a more general context. It seems that words are used with a slightly different significance by different schools, teachers etc.

Love & peace.

BBB.

[Lucy_In_The_Sky]

gdkumar, thanks for the wonderful story you posted a few pages ago, I really enjoyed it.

Hare Krishna!

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

This thread has already died many times only to reincarnate. Transmigration of the thread.
lol...you're right it has...but it shall live...its strong enough! I hope to come back soon!

[Bhaskar]

Someone once asked Sri Ramana Maharishi wether he had read the Bhagawad geeta. His reply:

I have tried many times, but whenever I read it I start at the first chapter and I get only as far as the verse "panchajanyam rishikeshaha devadattam dhananjaya..." then I just get caught up in the scene, the armies arrayed for war, in the middle Sri Krishna blowing on his Divine Conch....I never get further than that, at that point I just get transfixed by the picture of the Lord.


Such a man has no need to read the Bhagawad Geeta, he is already completely absorbed in Bhagawan.

Om namo bhagawate sri Ramanaya.

[BlackBillBlake]

This is taken from the book ‘Yogi Sri Krishnaprem’ by Dilip Kumar Roy.



The experience he had at the feet of Ramana Maharishi was typical and revealing. I will do my best to tell it in his own words as far as possible.

“You know, Dilip,” he said, “how profound is my admiration and veneration for the Sage. I agree whole-heartedly with Sri Aurobindo’s verdict that His tapasya is a shining light of India. So I went to Ramana Ashram in Tiruvannamalai to receive His blessing.

“When , in the evening, I entered the hall where the Maharishi reclines daily on his couch, I sat down in silence along with the others, to meditate at his feet. But believe it or not, Dilip, as soon as I sat down I heard a voice questioning me over and over again: ‘Who are you ? Who are you? Who are you?’ I tried hard to ignore it, but it went on and on like an importunate visitor, knocking at the door, who insisted on being admitted. So, In the end, I just had to formulate an answer: ‘I am Krishna’s servant.’ At once the question changed, like a shape-changer into: ‘Who is Krishna?’ I answered ‘Nanda’s Son.’ No use; the question was repeated pauselessly. I thought up other answers like – ‘He’s an Avatar, the One-in-all, the Resident of every heart’ and so on….but the questioning would not cease, till, at last, I gave it up, left the hall, and returned, deeply disturbed, to meditate. But I had no peace: the voice gave me no respite, till, in the end, I had to evoke Radharani who asked me very simply what answers I had given. I told Her but She shook Her head and then, at last, revealed it to me.”

“She did?” I said, thrilled.

He anticipated me, holding up his hand.

“No, Dilip, don’t ask me please! I won’t tell you, for you will tell everybody, don’t I know you? But listen – there are more thrills to come”.

“Next morning,” he went on, “when I sat down again at his blessed feet, the Maharishi suddenly gave me a lightening glance, and smiled. I knew at once beyond the shadow of a doubt that he was the author of it all and that he also knew that I had divined his part correctly.

“Then, as I closed my eyes to meditate, a deep peace descended into me and settled like a block of ice as it were till my every cell was numb with an exquisite bliss…..

“As I meditated, it was borne home to me through the mystic silence that though this peace stemmed ultimately from the Lord Himself – doesn’t He say in the Gita that He Himself is the primal source of all experience – the peace in this instance was transmitted through His beloved agent; the Maharishi.

“But isn’t that precisely why He sends to us, as His deputies, the great saints and sages, Messiahs and Avatars?”

“Of course He does. Didn’t Ma explain to you the import of His naralila – that is, why He comes down to play hide and seek with us, humans, as a human being?”

He paused for a little and gave me a quizzical look.

“I feel tempted to tell you about the sequel – “

“Only you have misgivings about confiding in me?” I finished for him, laughing.

“Well, I’ll risk it,” he laughed back. “For what happened was too wonderful. So listen.”

I hung on his words.

“As I went on imbibing this delectable peace – meditating at his feet – I suddenly took it into my head to return the compliment and put a question to him in silence: “And who are you, may I humbly ask?’ It so happened that the next moment I had to open my eyes involuntarily when – lo, I found his couch empty!”

“You don’t say so!”

“Yes, Dilip,” he nodded, smiling and enjoying my mystification. “There was the couch where he had presided two seconds before, but in the twinkling of an eye as it were he had vanished – just melted into thin air! I closed my eyes once more and then looked again – and there he was tranquil and beneficent like Lord Shiva Himself! A momentary smile flickered on his lips as he gave a meaningful glance and then looked away.”

I caught my breath. “Marvellous!”

“It was indeed” he nodded again. Then after a while: “ You see the point of the miracle don’t you?”

“That he was beyond nama-rupa ?”

“That’s right,” he answered reflectively, “Or shall I say: The One beyond all maya, the Star beyond the phantoms, The Last Reality beyond ephemera, the Silence beyond the songs – you may make use of any simile you fancy. Personally, I look upon it as a sign of his Grace – giving me the answer in a way only he could have given.”

I smiled. “So, he met you more than half-way?”

“He is compassion itself, don’t you know?”

“I do. But what then?”

“The rest is silence,” he answered, “don’t you know your Shakespeare?”

[Bhaskar]

Bhagawan Ramana was indeed one of the most magnificent beings to grace our land...I know the very room spoken of in your post BBB, for, more than fifty years later, I was there myself, a few months ago, sitting before the very same couch, on which now reclines a beautiful photograph of Sri Ramana. I wanted to meditate, but my eyes were constantly drawn to His eyes, smiling, karunamaya...I felt silence welling up inside like a huge roar,a tidal wave of peace. Contradictions as these may seem, that is what I felt. Elation and excitement danced with longing and shubhecha as I sat, my heart tingling with joy. It is indeed a beautiful beautiful place. I could swear I saw the edge of his lip flicker in the hint of a smile when I took my leave.

[BlackBillBlake]

Bhagawan Ramana was indeed one of the most magnificent beings to grace our land...I know the very room spoken of in your post BBB, for, more than fifty years later, I was there myself, a few months ago, sitting before the very same couch, on which now reclines a beautiful photograph of Sri Ramana. I wanted to meditate, but my eyes were constantly drawn to His eyes, smiling, karunamaya...I felt silence welling up inside like a huge roar,a tidal wave of peace. Contradictions as these may seem, that is what I felt. Elation and excitement danced with longing and shubhecha as I sat, my heart tingling with joy. It is indeed a beautiful beautiful place. I could swear I saw the edge of his lip flicker in the hint of a smile when I took my leave.
Hare Krishna!

Dear Bhaskar,

Nice to hear of your experience, thanks for sharing it with all of us.

It seems that the vibrations of a great soul like Ramana Maharishi persist in the places they used to 'hang out' in life. I'm sure you did see him smile!

Love & peace.

[Bhaskar]

His love and grace was so strong that even cows, crows, dogs and deer recieved moksha, just by being faithful and showing love to him. What, then, can be said about his ability to transform a human heart in a moment!

Om namo bhagavate sri Ramanaya!

[BlackBillBlake]

http://img36.exs.cx/img36/6776/ramanagodlook4yj.jpg


Sri Ramana Maharishi

[Galahad]

Haribol !

[ChiefCowpie]

“The rest is silence,” he answered, “don’t you know your Shakespeare?”
Thank you Bill

[ChiefCowpie]

Prayers for healing of the world.

I would hate to say there is silver lining to the pain and suffering the dark cloud of this tsunami has brought, but before the tsunami came, the world was very much divided and it is inspiring to see the world coming together to bring aid, relief, comfort... love to those in harm's way of the tsunami.

Prayer to all, Blessed Be, Chief

[ChiefCowpie]

Haribol !
What's wrong? What's so horrible?

[Galahad]

What's wrong? What's so horrible?ehm...Haribol it's not 'horrible',it's a Vaisnava form of greetings

it means: "chant the name of God"!

Hari is Krsna, God, and bol or bolo is chanting.
it's a way to say "hello" that we use also...

[BlackBillBlake]

Prayers for healing of the world.

I would hate to say there is silver lining to the pain and suffering the dark cloud of this tsunami has brought, but before the tsunami came, the world was very much divided and it is inspiring to see the world coming together to bring aid, relief, comfort... love to those in harm's way of the tsunami.

Prayer to all, Blessed Be, Chief
Amen Chief.

We need now another big wave - a wave of love and compassion to flow from all our hearts for the victims of the tsunami, and all the world's other disaster areas, natural and man-made, like Dafur in Africa.
I'm heartened to see that the people of Britain have pledged over 60 million - a pound per head approx. of the population, and 10 mill. more than the 50 mill. pledged by the UK govt.
We should give whatever we can, and pray for healing for all those affected, and the whole world.


I'd also like to say that I've been watching the news on tv about this, and I heard a presenter say how it is a challenge to the faith of many in Sri Lanka and elsewhere.
How could God let this happen? How can He allow such untold suffering?

The Bhagavad Gita would seem to suggest an answer to this. This world is a part of what the Gita designates as Krishna's lower material energy or prakriti. It is governed by automatic processes, like a vast machine, and we, the living beings are also part of that machinery. Except that in us, is the Immortal Jiva, the soul - a portion of Krishna Himself, who is transcendent - not under the control of the lower energy, but master of it.

It seems that God 'lets the machine run' - it's not that He is directly the cause of such things as earthquakes - it is all carried out by unconscious nature. All of us here are subject to this lower nature over which we have no control ultimately, or only some limited control, because our consciousness is identified with the movements of the lower nature. We have to seek the Consciousness that transcends this world of imperfections and sorrows. Then we will know that all these contrary things like pain and pleasure, suffering and joy are all entwined, and part of the very fabric of existence here.
But still, we should see that all beings are one - all are part of His Being. Like Christ on the cross, He too suffers with us and in us. We should do all we can to relieve suffering and improve conditions in this world wherever and in whatever ways we can.

I guess this is a bit of a ramble - its just a few thoughts really.

Om Shanti.

[Bhaskar]

While it is good and sattvic to feel sorry for people at a time like this, we must not allow it to upset us. After all, as bhagawan says, na jaayate mriyate va kadaachid...The soul is not born, nor does it ever die. Therefore we shouldn't grieve too much for the dead. Also, all those who were affected were recieving the results of their karma. Humanity as a whole is generating some very negative karma and so there is every now and then a natural disaster that gives us a rap on the knuckles. Mother nature can only tolerate so much abuse.

[ChiefCowpie]

ehm...Haribol it's not 'horrible',it's a Vaisnava form of greetings

it means: "chant the name of God"!Oh!



Hari is Krsna, God,
If Krishna is God, why does he steal?

[BlackBillBlake]

While it is good and sattvic to feel sorry for people at a time like this, we must not allow it to upset us. After all, as bhagawan says, na jaayate mriyate va kadaachid...The soul is not born, nor does it ever die. Therefore we shouldn't grieve too much for the dead. Also, all those who were affected were recieving the results of their karma. Humanity as a whole is generating some very negative karma and so there is every now and then a natural disaster that gives us a rap on the knuckles. Mother nature can only tolerate so much abuse.
Dear Bhaskar,

No doubt you are right up to a point. But it is hard for any sensitive soul to see the suffering esp. of innocents and not be affected by it.
Also, my own view is that this world is probably ultimately 'perfectible' or certainly improvable through our efforts. It is just as much the karma of the west unaffected by this disaster to help out, and it is the karma of the victims to be helped.
It's not the dead I grieve for, but the living - those left with shattered lives, serious injury, fear and grief for lost loved ones.

I would like to share these short quotes from Swami Vivekananda, I feel it is relevant:

"You may invent an image through which to worship God, but a better image already exists, the living man. You may build a temple in which to worship God, and that may be good, but a better one, a much higher one, already exists, the human body"

and again

"He who wants to serve the father must serve the children first. He who wants to serve Shiva must serve His children - must serve all creatures in the world first"
"It is a privilege to serve mankind, for this is the worship of God: God is here, in all these human souls. He is the soul of man"
"The first of everything should go to the poor; we have only a right to what remains. The poor are God's representatives; anyone that suffers is His representative"

Hare Krishna!

[ChiefCowpie]

And too, we as Hindus or at least folks who worship the same bunch of Gods, we naturally root for the Tamil Nadu Tigers, but its a bit embarassing for us at these times to see them put their regional concerns in their long fought battle for independence above giving aid workers free and open access to the areas in need.

[ChiefCowpie]

How could God let this happen? How can He allow such untold suffering?

The Bhagavad Gita would seem to suggest an answer to this. This world is a part of what the Gita designates as Krishna's lower material energy or prakriti. It is governed by automatic processes, like a vast machine, and we, the living beings are also part of that machinery.
Yes, but how is this machinery working?

Unknown Energy Surges Continue to Hit Planet
by Sorcha Faal - Global Research


Editor’s Note: The following report was released barely a few days before the Tsunami which swept South and Southeast Asia on December 26.

What is important in this report is that it points to a pattern of major climatic disruptions. In fact several disruptive climatic events took place within the months preceding the dramatic events of December 26.

On December 1, 2004 barely reported in the media, in one of "the largest weather events in recorded human history, 86,800 square miles of China was shrouded in fog, bringing transportation systems (especially air travel) to a virtual standstill throughout the country."

By: Sorcha Faal, and as reported to the Russian Academy of Sciences
December 22, 2004

An increasingly panicked global effort is now underway by the world's top scientists to understand an unprecedented series of 'blasts', energy surges, which the planet has been taking from an as yet unknown source which has been bombarding Antarctica with cosmic rays and disrupting Northern Hemisphere weather systems on a global scale.

The first of these cosmic ray blasts occurred nearly 5 years ago and have been increasing in their frequency and intensity since the end of November. The once normally darkened skies of the Northern Hemisphere's Arctic regions are now in twilight due to these blasts. Wayne Davidson, from the Canadian Government's weather station at Resolute Bay, located in the Arctic Circle, says about this mysterious lighting, "The entire horizon is raised like magic, like the hand of God is bringing it up."

On December 1, 2004 the largest recorded blast sent not only shockwaves through the world scientific community but also through the Northern Hemisphere resulting in one of the largest weather events in recorded human history when 86,800 square miles of China was shrouded in fog, bringing transportation systems (especially air travel) to a virtual standstill throughout the country.

As reported by the BBC in this article from October, 2002, "German scientists have found a significant piece of evidence linking cosmic rays to climate change. They have detected charged particle clusters in the lower atmosphere that were probably caused by the space radiation. They say the clusters can lead to the condensed nuclei which form into dense clouds."

These German scientists from the Max Planck Institute of Nuclear Physics in Heidelberg go on to say that their measurements "have for the first time detected in the upper troposphere large positive ions with mass numbers up to 2500", and "Our observations provide strong evidence for the ion-mediated formation and growth of aerosol particles in the upper troposphere."

What they hadn't expected to happen though has been the large- scale occurrences of this over the past few weeks, to include China on December 2nd and 14th and then India on the 21st, which is due to both China's and India's reliance on fossil fuels and the continuing degradation of their air quality.

The effects of these blasts have also been felt throughout the rest of the Northern Hemisphere resulting in such freak occurrences as, hurricane force winds in Paris , Germany, Canada, Russia, England and the United States on an almost simultaneous basis. Accompanying these hurricane force winter winds have been the massive cold fronts following them dropping normal winter lows to record lows throughout the entire Northern Hemisphere.

Though not yet at a point to acknowledge this publicly, some of the world's top scientists are beginning to see an astrophysical correlation between these cosmic ray blasts to our planet and an ever-increasing number of global events relating to atmospheric explosions of inbound meteors, such as those in Indonesia, where a meteorite was picked up by their Air Forces radar, China, where a meteorite explosion turned 'night into day' and Washington D.C. where one police official stated, "It looked like a ball of fire falling out of the sky."

The world's top scientists have begun coordinating with Dr. Eun-Suk Seo from the United States University of Maryland, and her team, in a 'search' for answers to the origin of these cosmic ray blasts directed from an unknown origin in space towards the South Pole and disrupting our global weather systems.

http://www.abi01.de/kqx/wave.jpg

Under Dr. Eun-Suk Seo's and her international team's direction NASA launched a stratospheric balloon on December 20th from Antarctica's McMurdo base and have stated,

"The balloon, following circulation of winds high, will sail around the ice continent for about three weeks. During this time, data of great scientific interest will be gathered. These data concern flows of charged particles of highest energy (cosmic rays) coming from Space."

But as one Russian scientist said to us, and who wished to remain anonymous,

"Why this game? We all know what's happening"

--an apparent reference to the fact though these events are well known to both world governments and the scientific establishments they are beyond the understanding of the general public at large.

Whatever the end results these experiments reveal for these scientists, it remains an undisputed fact that this world of ours is facing a type of global cataclysmic event buried in our common geological past, and maybe, as some social scientists report, in our common ancestral memory also.
http://globalresearch.ca/articles/FAA412A.html (http://globalresearch.ca/articles/FAA412A.html)

[Bhaskar]

First of all I do NOT root for the LTTE, they are murderers, far gone ont he path of adharma.

Bill, remember, I did say that it is perfectly correct and normal to grieve. my point is that we must not lose our peace of mind over it. That mental equilibrium has to be maintained at all times in life, this quality of sama is one of the 6 qualities that a seeker has to develop.

Of course it is our duty to serve those in distress. However in order to do so effectively, we must again maintain our balance emotionally. It does not do to get grief ridden and go to pieces at such a time.

In order to maintain this equipoise it is helpful to keep in mind such logic as I have outlined, as it makes it easier to deal with the emotions.

And one last thing:

You suggest that the world is imperfect. I completely disagree. Any imperfections we may see are because of our failure to view the larger picture. After all, this world was created by God. To say the world is imperfect is to say God is imperfect. Such a statement would contradict the very concept of God as being the ultimate perfect totality. This is not to say that we must not make an effort to alleviate the suffering of those around us. Their suffering is just as much part of the cosmic perfection as our service to them.

[Little flower]

i fink they r rele kl!!
but paganism is da oldest.
but i fink hinduism is under da pagan umbrella

[Little flower]

so in a way it ishttp://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif

[BlackBillBlake]

You suggest that the world is imperfect. I completely disagree. Any imperfections we may see are because of our failure to view the larger picture. After all, this world was created by God. To say the world is imperfect is to say God is imperfect. Such a statement would contradict the very concept of God as being the ultimate perfect totality. This is not to say that we must not make an effort to alleviate the suffering of those around us. Their suffering is just as much part of the cosmic perfection as our service to them.
The world is imperfect in the sense that it does not manifest perfectly the Divine energy behind its existence. For the Divine can be no limitation, no suffering, no ignorance or death. Yet we patently see all these things surrounding us in this world. We can say 'it is an illusion - one simply has to get out of it'. In a sense, that is the view of a lot of Indian philosophy over the ages ( although perhaps you'll disagree over that).
Or we can see this world as one of transition, a world in the process of creation, of a creative evolution. This includes us - Sri Aurobindo said "man is a transitional being" - Sri A's great illumination was of the coming of a higher Divine life here on earth, a new and higher consciousness, and a transformation of wordly existence into a perfect manifestation of the Infinite Godhead from which all has sprung. A completion of a Divine creative movement.

An idea has just come to mind so let me put it like this. We know that once, dinosaurs roamed the earth for millions of years. Much later on, after they'd been wiped out, mankind appeared. So - was this a world of perfection in the days of the dinosaurs? If so, why change it? Why bring in this complex human mental being ? And are we the end? Will we eventually evolve into something else completely - perhaps as far above us as we seem to be above the dinosaurs.

Om Shanti.

[BlackBillBlake]

i fink they r rele kl!!
but paganism is da oldest.
but i fink hinduism is under da pagan umbrellaThe Hindu Umbrella.

http://img110.exs.cx/img110/435/6a298xz.jpg

[BlackBillBlake]

Yes, but how is this machinery working?


Dear Chief Cowpie,

Thanks for another interesting if worrying post.

Maybe this current civilization will be wiped out, or forced to radically change.

Perhaps someone has a different plan for the earth than capitalist imperialism.

In the longer run, things may well work out, but the immediate period we face, and our children and grandchildren will face looks very uncertain. All the more reason to turn to the Divine - to a higher consciousness. Then perhaps we can see how light can come even from the darkness.

If we want a new age of love and light here on earth (hippie dreams again) then all these negative things have to go. Perhaps nature will force such a change. If these disasters we are now witnessing can do any good at all, it can surely be to make us, who live on wake up to the reality of life on this planet at this critical time. To the difficulties, and to the fantastic potential that also exists.

The tsunami didn't stop to ask if those it swept away were Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, American, Jew or Brit - much less if they were personalists or impersonalists! can't people see how petty and stupid all these foolish divisions are in the glaring aftermath of this tragedy? Let's hope and pray that they can.

Jai Sri Rahde!

Love & peace.

[Bhaskar]

The world is imperfect in the sense that it does not manifest perfectly the Divine energy behind its existence. For the Divine can be no limitation, no suffering, no ignorance or death. Yet we patently see all these things surrounding us in this world. We can say 'it is an illusion - one simply has to get out of it'. In a sense, that is the view of a lot of Indian philosophy over the ages ( although perhaps you'll disagree over that).[quote]

No I agree with that completely. I believe that the world in itself has no existence or reality of its own, only brahman exists.

[quote]
An idea has just come to mind so let me put it like this. We know that once, dinosaurs roamed the earth for millions of years. Much later on, after they'd been wiped out, mankind appeared. So - was this a world of perfection in the days of the dinosaurs? If so, why change it? Why bring in this complex human mental being ? And are we the end? Will we eventually evolve into something else completely - perhaps as far above us as we seem to be above the dinosaurs.

It is perfect now as it was before the coming of the humans. Why change it is a question to be answered not by me but by the One pulling the strings. Either way, the world of creation has only a relative existence, the way a dream has a relative existence. And yes, I believe we can evolve into something far above and beyond humanity as we know it.

[BlackBillBlake]

It is perfect now as it was before the coming of the humans. Why change it is a question to be answered not by me but by the One pulling the strings. Either way, the world of creation has only a relative existence, the way a dream has a relative existence. And yes, I believe we can evolve into something far above and beyond humanity as we know it.
I say it is more perfect now than in the dinosaur days because the human consciousness is so much higher and has the potential of union with God. To the extent that we realize that identity, you could say we are fulfilling the cosmic purpose.

I also agree that the manifest world is relativistic in nature, but that's not to say that it is unreal. Our consciouness of it may be unreal, but that's another thing.

I don't think that this stage of terrestial evolution equates in any way with Divine perfection, except in the rare cases of a few great Avatars and saints who embody it to some extent.

Bhaskar, I feel that all we can do is work through our sadhana and surrender to move closer to perfection ourselves. And by that, I mean outer action as well as meditation, japa, study etc.

I'm actually glad we have some grounds for - not dispute, certainly - but discussion. If everyone agrees on every point, things can get a bit stale.

Love & peace.

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

Amen Chief.

We need now another big wave - a wave of love and compassion to flow from all our hearts for the victims of the tsunami, and all the world's other disaster areas, natural and man-made, like Dafur in Africa.
I'm heartened to see that the people of Britain have pledged over 60 million - a pound per head approx. of the population, and 10 mill. more than the 50 mill. pledged by the UK govt.
We should give whatever we can, and pray for healing for all those affected, and the whole world.
I agree.

“Let us pray in our hearts for a League of Souls and a United World. Though we may seem divided by race, creed, color, class, and political prejudices, still, as children of the one God we are able in our souls to feel brotherhood and world unity. May we work for the creation of a United World in which every nation will be a useful part, guided by God through man’s enlightened conscience. In our hearts we can all learn to be free from hate and selfishness. Let us pray for harmony among the nations, that they march hand in hand through the gate of a fair new civilization." —Paramahansa Yogananda

Also...I recieved this in an e-mail...apparently the ISKCON of Sri Lanka is handing out prasadam as a form of relief...so if you would like to donate money to make the food...send it to...

ISKCON Sri Lanka
188 New Chetty St.
Colombo 13
Sri Lanka

:) Hare Krsna! :)

*Peace and Love*
Nicole

[BlackBillBlake]

More on the tsunami

Historic town in India saved by sea wall

By CHRIS TOMLINSON

Associated Press

PONDICHERRY, India - Religious devotees believe a divine force saved thisport city from last week's tsunami, but the vendors who sell fruit andsnacks next to the sea say it really was France. During the city's nearly three centuries as a French colonial enclave,French engineers built and maintained a massive, stone sea wall that keptPondicherry's historic center dry even though tsunami waves drove water24feet above the normal high-tide mark. "The water rose quickly, up to the main road," said M. Keshavan,a23-year-old who sells mangos and crispy snacks to tourists visiting thewall. He pointed to a two-foot retaining wall next to the road that runsalong the top of the sea wall: "It stopped there." The Pondicherry district recorded some 600 deaths from the huge waves thatstruck India's southeastern coast after a mammoth earthquake off Indonesia,but most of those killed were fishermen who lived in villages beyond theman-made barrier.
France had hoped to use Pondicherry as the base for an expanded empireinIndia, but it was the British who won the fight and ended up controllingmore than 90 percent of the peninsula. The French were left withPondicherry, which they ruled until 1956, seven years after Britain gavetherest of India independence. The French influence, seen in the graceful architecture on streets withnames like Rue Dumas, makes this city of 300,000 unique in India. Police sport red kepis, the round caps worn by Parisian cops and Frenchsoldiers. French is still taught in schools, and French expatriates ownhomes and run businesses in the French Quarter. Paris even financed a giant,bronze statue of the father of India's independence movement, MohandasK.Gandhi, which stands at the center of the sea wall.
The barrier was initially completed in 1735. Over the years, the Frenchcontinued to fortify the wall, piling huge boulders along its 1.25-milelength to stop erosion by the waves pounding the harbor. At its height, the barrier running along the water's edge reaches about27feet above sea level. The boulders, some weighing up to a ton, are weatheredblack and brown. On Dec. 26, when towering waves crashed against India's southern coast,thewall held. Keshavan said the water then receded from the harbor to where the seabeddrops off into deep water - about 650 feet out from the wall. "There was nothing but wet sand. People ran out to pick up the fishthatwere left behind, but the police ordered them to come back," he said. The ocean surged into the harbor and retreated two more times before theseafinally returned to normal, he said. "Pondicherry was very safe because of the rock barrier," saidS.Subramanian, manager of the Tourist Information Bureau, which has its officeon the road overlooking the ocean. He said only the fishing villages andbeach resorts on either side of the barrier were damaged. Every year the sea wall is inspected. Whenever gaps appear, or the stonessink into the sand, the government adds more boulders to keep it strong,hesaid. The deep-water harbor itself also helped. The steep drop-off forms anunderwater wall that breaks up the power of incoming waves.
In neighboring Bangladesh, which had only two deaths from the tsunami,thereis a similar natural barrier. Billions of tons of sediment carried intothesea by the country's numerous rivers slowed the sea surges before theyhitthe coast.
Not everyone believes the wall was responsible for keeping the city safe. At a religious retreat established in the French Quarter in 1926 by Indianguru Sri Aurobindo, an anti-colonial revolutionary turned scholar and holyman, devotees attributed the city's salvation to Aurobindo and hisFrench-born partner, whom they call "The Mother." "I am not sure you will believe this, but it was The Mother who protected the city," said S. Ramanathan, an elderly devotee who lives and works in the ashram. "I stay in a very protected place, so we are not affected by the tsunami at all."
Keshavan, the vendor, answers that there was nothing supernatural aboutPondicherry's escape. "It was this wall," he said, standing confidently on top of thebarrier aswaves splashed below. © 2005 AP Wire and wire service sources. All Rights Reserved. http://www.mercurynews.com (http://www.mercurynews.com/)

[BlackBillBlake]

I agree.

“Let us pray in our hearts for a League of Souls and a United World. Though we may seem divided by race, creed, color, class, and political prejudices, still, as children of the one God we are able in our souls to feel brotherhood and world unity. May we work for the creation of a United World in which every nation will be a useful part, guided by God through man’s enlightened conscience. In our hearts we can all learn to be free from hate and selfishness. Let us pray for harmony among the nations, that they march hand in hand through the gate of a fair new civilization." —Paramahansa Yogananda


Amen to that too!

Happy birthday Nicole :)

Hare Krishna!

Love & blessings.

[ChiefCowpie]

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[ChiefCowpie]

http://www.ahepburn.com/bppic.jpg



Some "Time Tested Beauty Tips" from Audrey Hepburn

For attractive lips,
Speak words of kindness.
For lovely eyes,
Seek out the good in people.
For a lovely figure,
Share your food with the hungry.
For beautiful hair,
Let a child run his or her fingers through it once a day.
For poise,
Walk with the knowledge that you'll never walk alone.
People, even more than things, have to be restored, renewed,
revived, reclaimed and redeemed.
Never throw out anybody.
Remember, if you ever need a helping hand,
you'll find one at the end of your arm.
As you grow older, you will discover that you have two hands,
one for helping yourself, and one for helping others.
The beauty of a woman is not in the clothes she wears,
The figure that she carries, or the way she combs her hair.
The beauty of a woman must be seen from in her eyes,
Because that is the doorway to her heart.
The beauty of a woman is not in a facial mole,
But true beauty in a woman is reflected in her soul.
It is the caring that she lovingly gives, the passion that
she shows, and the beauty of a woman with passing
years only grows!

[ChiefCowpie]

I agree.

“Let us pray in our hearts for a League of Souls and a United World. Though we may seem divided by race, creed, color, class, and political prejudices, still, as children of the one God we are able in our souls to feel brotherhood and world unity. May we work for the creation of a United World in which every nation will be a useful part, guided by God through man’s enlightened conscience. In our hearts we can all learn to be free from hate and selfishness. Let us pray for harmony among the nations, that they march hand in hand through the gate of a fair new civilization." —Paramahansa Yogananda
Peace

Happy Birthday Nicole

[ChiefCowpie]

Amen Chief.

We need now another big wave - a wave of love and compassion to flow from all our hearts for the victims of the tsunami, and all the world's other disaster areas, natural and man-made, like Dafur in Africa.
http://www.ahepburn.com/Dacca.jpg

[ChiefCowpie]

Of course it is our duty to serve those in distress. However in order to do so effectively, we must again maintain our balance emotionally. It does not do to get grief ridden and go to pieces at such a time.http://www.ahepburn.com/NATIVE.jpg

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

Thank you BBB and CCP for the birthday wishes! :)

I love the Audrey Hepburn poem CCP...its absolutely awesome! :)

*Peace and Love*
Nicole

[ChiefCowpie]

Thank you Nicole.

avatIrNe gauracandre vistIrne prema sAgare/
suprakAsita ratnaughe yo dIno dIna eva sah//

The advent of Gauracandra (moon) braught about a huge tidal wave in the ocean of love, wonderfully depositing heaps of jewels all around. He is certainly the most pitiable wretch who will not collect up those jewels.

namascaitanya candrAya koti candrAnana tvise/
premAnandAbdhi candrAya cAru candrAmsu hAsine//

I bow in salutation to the moon-like Caitanya, whose countenance as a million moons doth shine; who, like the moon from the ocean of love's ecstacy churned, sheds the soothing moon beams of his beautious smile.

[ChiefCowpie]

The Appearance of Radha-kundahttp://www.mvtindia.com/images/aristasura.jpg When the inhabitants of Vrindavana heard that Krishna had killed the terrible Aristasura demon (who appeared in the shape of a bull) they all rushed to the spot in a jubilant mood. Srimati Radharani and Her girlfriends also arrived at the scene and upon hearing that Krishna had killed a bull, became very upset and refused to associate with Him. Krishna pleaded with Radharani that since Aristasura was actually a demon in the disguise of a bull, there was no sin in killing him. Radharani informed Her beloved Syamasundara that in order to purify Himself from cow-killing, He would have to take His bath in all the holy places of the universe and then only would She associate with Him again. Krishna agreed to Radharani’s proposal, but instead of taking the trouble of traveling to all the holy places in the universe to take bath, Krishna informed Her that He would instead call all the holy places in the universe to Vrindavana. Striking His heel into the ground, Krishna made a very large impression and then called all the holy places of the universe to pour their sacred waters in to the newly-made kunda.

One by one all the holy places arrived in their personified forms. Offering their prayers to Krishna they all poured their waters into the kunda and filled it up. Just to please Radharani, Krishna took His bath in the newly formed kunda that then became celebrated as Syama-kunda.

Exhibiting transcendental arrogance in having created such a beautiful pond, filled with the sacred waters of all the holy places in the universe, Krishna began teasing Radharani and the gopis. He said that because they were only simple village girls they must have never performed any religious duties in this world for the pleasure of the demigods. Krishna also informed them that because they sided with the demon Aristasura, in the form of a bull, they would have to share the sin of cow-killing, and must also take bath to purify themselves.

http://www.mvtindia.com/radhakunda/rk5.jpgFeeling the pinch of Krishna’s joking words, Radharani suddenly exhibited Her transcendental anger and seeing a deep impression of Aristasura’s hoof print nearby, broke one of Her bangles and using it as a digging instrument, started to dig in the soft earth. Upon seeing this, the gopis also broke their bangles and started digging. Within a short time a large kunda had been created right next to Syama-kunda.

Krishna was amazed to see the large pond that Radharani and the gopis had created and made an offer to Radharani that the sacred waters from His kunda could also fill Hers. Radharani flatly refused Krishna’s offer, saying that the waters of Syama-kunda were now contaminated due to the sin of cow-killing. She further said that Her many girlfriends would form a line and bring pure waters of the Manasi-ganga in golden pots to fill her kunda.

Upon hearing the words of Srimati Radharani, the holy places personified approached Her with folded hands and while chanting beautiful prayers in glorification, humbly asked Her to grant them a boon. Radharani inquired what kind of boon they desired. The holy places personified informed Her that their lives could only be successful if they were allowed to pour their sacred waters into Her kunda also. Being ever compassionate to all those who sincerely approach Her, Radharani while glancing at Syamasundara through the corners of Her eyes, happily agreed to their proposal. In a joyous mood the holy places personified forcibly broke through the banks of Syama-kunda and poured their sacred waters into Radha-kunda.

Krishna then immediately took bath in Radha-kunda and declared that henceforth, anyone who with firm faith took a bath on that day in Radha-kunda, would achieve the same ecstatic love that Radharani had for Him. Radharani and Her girlfriends then took bath in Syama-kunda. Radharani declared that anyone who takes bath in Syama-kunda would achieve the same ecstatic love that Krishna has for Her.



This pastime occurred at 11:45 pm on the eighth day of the waning moon in the auspicious month of Kartika. Each year on this day, thousands of devotees flock to Radha-kunda for the ardha-ratri-snana (midnight bath). First they bathe in Syama-kunda and then again in Radha-kunda. This festival, held on the appearance day of Radha-kunda is known as Bahulastami. Radha-kunda is the only place in the world where a holy bath is taken at midnight. top of page (http://www.mvtindia.com/radhakunda/appearance.htm#R)


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[Little flower]

Hare Krishna Hare Krishna
Krishna Krishna Hare Hare
Hare Rama Hare Rama
Rama Rama Hare Hare


i love tht chant/song!!!!!!!!!
they sing it in da film hair 2!!!
:)

[ChiefCowpie]

Lord Chaitanya Rediscovers Radha Kunda
http://www.mvtindia.com/images/rk11.jpgAfter having displayed His transcendental pastimes on earth for one hundred and twenty five years, Krishna returned to the spiritual world bringing the Dvapara-yuga to an end. The dark age of Kali-yuga then began and after a period of almost fifty centuries, Krishna again appeared on earth but this time in the form of Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, also known as the Golden Avatar due to His golden-like complexion.

During Krishna’s appearance He spoke the Bhagavad-gita on the battle at Kurukshetra, but as time went by no-one could properly understand or even follow Krishna’s instructions. Therefore the Lord came again as Sri Chaitanya to show the world how to perfectly follow those instructions. The Lord appeared this time as a sannyasi in the renounced order of spiritual life. One of the reasons for His coming was to introduce the yuga-dharma, or religious practice for this present age of Kali, the congregational chanting of the Lords holy names, also known as the maha-mantra, or the great chant of deliverance.

Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare

Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare

Another reason for Lord Chaitanya’s appearance was to re-discover the lost holy places in Vrindavana, where Lord Krishna had performed His transcendental pastimes five thousand years earlier. In the year 1515, on the auspicious occasion of Kartika Purnima, Lord Chaitanya arrived on pilgrimage in the holy land of Vrindavana. Accompanied by His companions, Balabhadra and the Sanodiya brahmana, the Lord visited all the sacred forests connected with Lord Krishna’s pastimes.

One day while on parikrama around Govardhana Hill, Lord Chaitanya arrived at a small village then known as Aritagram. The Lord inquired from the local people where the sacred lakes of Radha-kunda and Syama-kunda were situated, but no one knew. Over the many centuries the two sacred kundas were practically forgotten and somehow had become renamed as gauri meaning golden (the complexion of Radharani), and kari meaning blackish (the complexion of Krishna). These two kundas had been turned into paddy fields by the local farmers.

On the outskirts of the village Lord Chaitanya sat in deep contemplation underneath a beautiful tamala tree. As the Lord sat there His glance. Fell across the two nearby paddy fields that were fed by underground springs. By His divine spiritual power, the Lord could understand that these two paddy fields were non-other than Radha-kunda and Syama-kunda. In great ecstasy the Lord suddenly ran into the middle of the paddy fields and in whatever water was available there, took His bath, much to the astonishment of the onlooking villagers. Lord Chaitanya then took clay from the sacred kundas and applied Vaisnava tilaka marks to His transcendental body. The Lord then danced in great ecstasy around the two kundas while chanting the holy names of Radha and Krishna. After fully satisfying Himself Lord Chaitanya offered His obeisances to the sacred kundas and continued His parikrama of the holy land of Vraja.

After completing His pilgrimage to Vrindavana where He rediscovered many important holy places, Lord Chaitanya began His return journey to Puri. On the way, the Lord stopped at Allahabad, where he met Rupa Goswami and instructed him in the science of devotional service for ten consecutive days. The Lord then ordered Rupa Goswami to proceed to Vrindavana and excavate all the lost holy places as well as write books on the science of devotional service (bhakti-yoga). Some years later Rupa Goswami wrote one of his most famous books, Sri Upadesamrta, which mentions the glories of Radha-kunda

After leaving Allahabad, Lord Chaitanya next visited Varanasi (Kasi), where He met Rupa’s elder brother Sanatana Goswami. The Lord also gave elaborate instructions on the science of devotion to Sanatana. The Lord then ordered him to join his brother Rupa in Vrindavana, where they should both write books elaborating on the Lord’s instructions, excavate the lost holy places of Krishna’s pastimes, and establish Deity worship.

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Please report website problems & broken links (webmaster@vrindavanmvt.com?subject=MVT (problems & dead links)). Website designed and maintained by BITS (http://www.boyce-it-services.com/)

[ChiefCowpie]

Hare Krishna Hare Krishna
Krishna Krishna Hare Hare
Hare Rama Hare Rama
Rama Rama Hare Hare


i love tht chant/song!!!!!!!!!:)
Blessed be!

With your devotions, you are healing the planET.

[ChiefCowpie]

Swami Sri Yukteswar Giri

http://fit.supereva.it/newage.freeweb/masters/Yukteswar.jpg


Swami Sri Yukteswar Giri (1855-1936) was Lahiri Mahasaya's disciple and the Guru of Paramahansa Yogananda.

His family name was Priya Nath Karar. He was born on May 10, 1855 in Serampore, where his father was a wealthy businessman. He left him the mansion which became his hermitage. His middle life was blessed with the guidance of Lahiri Mahasaya. Priya Nath Karar was married but after the death of his wife he joined the Swami Order and received the new name of Sri Yukteswar Giri.


At the behest of Lahiri Mahasaya's Guru, the deathless Mahavatar Babaji, he wrote "The Holy Science", a book where there is underlined the unity between the Scriptures of Christianity and the Hindu scriptures.

He trained Paramahansa Yogananda for his spiritual world-mission: the dissemination of Kriya Yoga.

He left consciously his body on March 9, 1935 in

Puri and he returned three months later in a supernal new body before the astonished eyes of his beloved disciple Paramahansa Yogananda and a week later before an aged woman, Ma (Mother), whose home was close to the Puri hermitage.

See here the Resurrection of Sri Yukteswar (http://www.lesbois.com/webdancer/yoga/two.htm).

He is called Jnanavatar that means 'Incarnation of Wisdom'.



http://fit.supereva.it/newage.freeweb/masters/yukteswlion.JPG Here a brief account about him by his greatest advanced disciple Paramahansa Yogananda:

"Daily life at the ashram flowed smoothly, infrequently varied. My guru awoke before dawn. Lying down, or sometimes sitting on the bed, he entered a state of Samadhi (It is a blissful superconscious state in which a yogi perceives the identity of the individualized soul and Cosmic Spirit). It was simplicity itself to discover when Master had awakened: abrupt halt of stupendous snores, a sigh or two; perhaps a bodily movement. Then a soundless state of breathlessness: he was in deep yogic joy." [...]

"Students seeking to escape from the maya-induced sex delusion received from Sri Yukteswar patient and understanding counsel:
'Just as hunger, not greed, has a legitimate purpose, so the sexual instict has been implanted by Nature solely for the propagation of the species, not for the kindling of insatiable longings', he said.
'Destroy wrong desires now; otherwise they will remain with you after the astral body has been separated from its physical casing. Even when the flesh is weak, the mind should be constantly resistant. If temptation assails you with cruel force, overcome it by impersonal analysis and indomitable will. Every natural passion can be mastered. Conserve your powers. Be like the capacious ocean, absorbing quietly all the tributary rivers of the senses. Daily renewed sense yearnings sap your inner peace; they are like openings in a reservoir that permit vital waters to be wasted in the desert soil of materialism. The forceful, activating impulse of wrong desire is the greatest enemy to the happiness of man. Roam in the world as a lion of self-control; don't let the frogs of sense weakness kick you around!' ".

This is an account from the travel diary written by Richard Wright, Sri Daya Mata's brother, one of few western persons who saw him living:



http://fit.supereva.it/newage.freeweb/masters/Yukteswar2.jpg "[...] there before us stood a simple two-storey ashram, its balcony jutting from the upper floor. The pervasive impression was peaceful solitude.
In grave humility I walked behind Yoganandaji into the courtyard within the hermitage walls. Hearts beating fast, we proceeded up some old cement steps, trod, no doubt, by myriads of truth seekers. The tension grew keener and keener as on we strode. Before us, near the head of the stairs, quietly appeared the Great One, Swami Sri Yukteswarji, standing in the noble pose of a sage.
My heart heaved and swelled as I felt myself blessed by being in his sublime presence. Tears blurred my eager sight when Yoganandaji dropped to his knees, and with bowed head offered his soul's gratitude and greeting; touching with his hand the guru's feet and then, in humble obeisance, his own forehead. He rose then and was embraced on both sides of the bosom by Sri Yukteswarji.
No words passed in the beginning, but the most intense feeling was expressed in mute phrases of the soul.How their eyes sparkled and were fired with the warmth of renewed soul union! A tender vibration surged through the quiet patio, and even the sun eluded the clouds to add a sudden blaze of glory.

http://fit.supereva.it/newage.freeweb/masters/priyanathkarar.JPG On the bended knee before the master I gave my own unexpressed love and thanks; touching his feet, calloused by time and service, and receiving his blessing. I stood then and faced two beautiful deep eyes smouldering with introspection, yet radiant with joy. [...]
I easily perceived the saintliness of the Great One through his heart-warming smile and twinkling eyes. One quality quickly discernible in his merry or serious words is a decided positiveness in statement - the mark of a sage, who knows he knows, because he knows God. His great wisdom, strenght of purpose, and determination are apparent in every way.
Studying him reverently from time to time, I noted that he is of large, athletic stature, hardened by the trials and sacrifices of renunciation. His poise is majestic. A decidedly sloping forehead, as if seeking the heavens, dominates his divine countenance. He has a rather large and homely nose, with which he amuses himself in idle moments, flipping and wiggling it with his fingers, like a child. His powerful dark eyes are haloed by an ethereal blue ring. His hair, parted in the middle, is white around the forehead, streaked elsewhere with silvery gold and silvery black, and ends in ringlets at his shoulders. His beard and moustache are scant or thinned out, yet seem to enhance his features; and, like his character, are deep and light at the same time.

http://fit.supereva.it/newage.freeweb/masters/YogYukt.JPG He has a jovial and rollicking laugh that comes from the depths of his chest, causing him to shake and quiver throughout his body - very cheerful and sincere. His face and stature are striking in their power, as are his muscular hands. He moves with a dignified tread and erect posture.
He was clad simply in the common dhoti and shirt, both once dyed an ochre colour, but now a faded orange. Glancing about, I observed that this rather dilapidated room suggests the owner's non-attachment to material comforts. The weather-stained white walls of the long chamber are streaked with fading blue plaster. At on e end of the room hangs a picture of Lahiri Mahasaya, garlanded in simple devotional fashion. There is also an old picture showing Yoganandaji as he first arrived in Boston, standing with other delegates to the Congress of Religions. [...]
The whole room emanates a fragrance of peace and happiness. Beyond the balcony I saw coconut trees towering in silent protection.

Although I write chiefly of my external impressions of the master, yet I was always conscious fo his spiritual glory. I felt his power, and shall ever retain that feeling as my divine blessing".



This is the description about Sri Yukteswarji by a well-known author of yoga and spiritual books, Mr. W.Y. Evans-Wents:

http://fit.supereva.it/newage.freeweb/masters/YukteswarSamadhi.jpg "It has been my privilege to meet one of the sages whose life history is herein narrated - Sri Yukteswar Giri. A likeness of the venerable saint appeared as part of the frontispiece of my Tibetan Yoga and Secret Doctrines.
It was at Puri, in Orissa, on the Bay of Bengal, that I encountered Sri Yukteswar. He was then the head of a quiet ashram near the seashore there, and was chiefly occuied in the spritual training of a group of youthful disciples. He expressed keen interest in the welfare of the people of the United States and of all the Americas, and of England, too, and questioned me concerning the distant activities, particularly those in California, of his chief disciple, Paramahansa Yogananda, whom he dearly loved, and whom he had sent, in 1920, as his emissary to the West.
Sri Yukteswar was of gentle mien and voice, of pleasing presence, and worthy of the veneration that his followers spontaneously accorded to him. Every person who knew him, whether of his own community or not, held him in the highest esteem.

I vividly recall his tall, straight, ascetic figure, robed in the saffron-coloured garb of one who has renounced worldly quests, as he stood at the entrance of the hermitage to give me welcome. His hair was long and somewhat curly, and his face bearded. His body was muscularly firm, but slender and well-formed, and his step energetic. He had chosen as his place of earthly abode the holy city of Puri, whither multitudes of pious Hindus, representative of every province of India, come daily on pilgrimage to the famed Temple of Jagannath, "Lord of the World".
It was at Puri that Sri Yukteswar closed his mortal eyes, in 1936, to the scenes of this transitory state of being and passed on, knowing that his incarnation had been carried to a triumphant completion. I am glad, indeed, to be able to record this testimony to the high character and holiness of Sri Yukteswar. Content to remain afar from the multitude, he gave himself unreservedly and in tranquility to that ideal life which Paramahansa Yogananda, his disciple, has now described for the ages".



As his divine Guru Lahiri Mahasaya, he healed many persons like Paramahansa Yogananda saved from cholera and a liver disorder. He healed Dr. Roy of diabetes, Sasi of tuberculosis, Nalini of paralyzed legs. He appeared simultaneously in Calcutta and Serampore. He predicted his passing, he left consciously his body at death and resurrected in a new body. His precious book by Babaji's request The Holy Science (http://www.srf-yogananda.org/catalog/holy_science.html) explains the World Cycles (Yugas), why human being should be vegetarian but above all the unity between religions.

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

Thank you for that ChiefCowPie!

Sri Yukteswar was indeed awesome. I'll bet he was really amazing to know... I always liked, in Autobiography of A Yogi, how he always made people wear those bangles...it always amused me. :)

[BlackBillBlake]

These two poems are from 'Songs of Innocence and Experience' by the English poet and painter William Blake (1757 - 1827).

I hope they have some resonance given the unfortunate events we have all witnessed recently.

The Divine Image


To Mercy Pity Peace and Love,
All pray in their distress:
And to these virtues of delight
Return their thankfulness.


For Mercy Pity Peace and Love,
Is God our father dear:
And Mercy Pity Peace and Love,
Is Man his child and care.

For Mercy has a human heart
Pity, a human face:
And Love, the human form divine,
And Peace, the human dress.

Then every man of every clime,
That prays in his distress,
Prays to the human form divine
Love Mercy Pity Peace.

And all must love the human form,
In heathen, Turk or Jew.
Where Mercy, Love & Pity dwell,
There God is dwelling too.



On Another’s Sorrow

Can I see another’s woe,
And not be in sorrow too.
Can I see another’s grief,
And not seek for kind relief.

Can I see a falling tear,
And not feel my sorrows share,
Can a father see his child,
Weep, nor be with sorrow fill'd.

Can a mother sit and hear
An infant groan an infant fear --
No no never can it be.
Never never can it be.


And can he who smiles on all
Hear the wren with sorrows small,
Hear the small birds grief & care,
Hear the woes that infants bear --

And not sit beside the nest
Pouring pity in their breast.
And not sit the cradle near
Weeping tear on infants tear.

And not sit both night & day,
Wiping all our tears away.
O! no never can it be.
Never never can it be.

He doth give his joy to all.
He becomes an infant small.
He becomes a man of woe
He doth feel the sorrow too.

Think not, thou canst sigh a sigh,
And thy maker is not by.
Think not, thou canst weep a tear,
And thy maker is not near.

O! he gives to us his joy,
That our grief he may destroy
Till our grief is fled & gone
He doth sit by us and moan

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

I very much liked those poems Andrew, they were really beautiful...
----
This is a story that I read in one of Paramahansa Yogananda's books and I shared it with gdkumar and he suggested that I should share it with you all:

Once there was a king who told one of his subjects that unless he could answer a
certain question, he would be hanged. The man said, "Tell me the question." The
king then asked him, "Where does God sit, and which way does He
look....north,south,east or west ?" The subject went home to think, and told his
servant that he would be killed unless he answered the king in a fortnight.

The servant said to his master, "Let me go for you. I will answer the question."
So the servant went to the king and explained his errand. "First", he said, "Let
me sit on your throne, for while I answer your question I am your teacher." The
king surrendered his throne to the servant, and then asked him : "Where does God
sit, and which way does he look ...north, south, east or west ?"
The servant responded with a request, "Bring me a cow." So a cow was brought.
Then the servant said, "Where is the milk ?"
"In the udder", said the king.
"Nay, Sire", said the servant, "The milk is not only in the udder, but
throughout the cow, for the milk is in the essence of the cow."

Then the servant asked that a bowl of milk be brought; and when it was set
before him, he asked the king : "Where is the butter ?"
The king said, "I see no butter."
The servant answered, "The butter is throughout the milk. Just churn the milk,
and the butter will become separated from it. Therefore, as the milk is all
through the cow, and butter is present throughout the milk, so is God
everywhere."
Thus did the wisdom of the servant save the life of his master, for the king
received the correct answer to his question.
----------

[BlackBillBlake]

Thanks SGB - nice story too :)


Om Shanti.

[BlackBillBlake]

To my mind, this is one of the most fascinating of Hindu myths.

At the beginning of time, an attempt was made by the Devas and Daityas , the gods and the demons, to obtain Amrita the nectar of immortality by churning the great ocean.

They used Mount Mandara as a churning stick, and set it upon the form of Kurma, the tortoise form assumed by Vishnu . They took Vasuki the king of snakes as a rope, with the gods on one side and the demons on the other.

There are variations on the story, but the churning first of all produced Halahala a fiery poison, then Airavata a heavenly elephant.

Next, the Goddess Lakshmi appeared. She was born from the milk ocean, rising from it seated upon Her lotus throne..

Finally, the god of medicine, Dhanvantari appeared, holding the pot of Amrita.

The demons tried to snatch it, but Vishnu appeared in the form of Mohini the seductress, and thus distracted them.

So the gods got their Amrita!

In another version, the churning is not successful at first because the gods forget about Ganesh. They have to first request His blessing, and then they can proceed as above.

The significance of this story may not be immediately evident, but it does contain many layers of meaning, or at least I have found it so over a period of years.

If anyone knows any further variations on the story, I’d love to hear about them.

http://img155.exs.cx/img155/1581/churning5hq.jpg

[gdkumar]

HARE KRISHNA !


DEAR ALL,

My greetings to all new comers.Sincere thanks to all, specially to SleepingJiva.
With all the beautiful and unfathomably rich posts from BBB,CCP,Bhaskar,SGB and all others now the thread has reached its significant boundary covering the whole world and has thus become boundaryless. It has become significant because HK does not limit itself to any limit, it signifies itself only when Krishna or Christ or Buddha or Allah or God is seen in everything and everywhere. Thanks to dear ChiefCowPie who relentlessly in an unsubdued manner kept on his good job of spreading words of knowledge and love. I bow to him and BBB unconditionally for this.

Those who probably tried to ridicule the posts are also so very much welcome to this thread. Nothing happens in a day and the process of self_discovering takes time like it had happened with me, who was totally callous and indifferent about the whole subject at one time. Only difference with me was I never used to disbelieve anything or jeer at the believers at the same time. Just a little brotherly advice to all who do not agree with God or His existence...... Please do not say something for which you will be ashamed and embarrased later on. Before we say something we should qualify ourselves to some extent to talk on that subject by enriching our knowledge through reading or by coming with the association of somebody who can satisfy all our questions.

It is quite justified that you should bow down or surrender to somebody only when you are satisfied from all sides that he or He deserves your worship.

I would once again request SleepingJiva to come back taking the example of CCPIE who was humiliated endless times but still remained nonchalant the way Sri Krishna or God does for all of us at all times.

With love and best wishes,

Kumar.

[ChiefCowpie]

10 points to whoever can find Sri Yuktesvara Giri

http://fusionanomaly.net/beatlessgtpepperdetail.jpg

[jesuswasamonkey]

He's the dude standing next to Aleister Crowley ;)

[BlackBillBlake]

I'm not sure how well the two of them would get on ! :)

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

He's the dude standing next to Aleister Crowley ;)I never noticed that! That's awesome...thankies CCC for sharing!

[ChiefCowpie]

George Harrison also paid homage to the Kriya Yoga line (rthymic control of the breath with silent repetition of Sacred Holy Name mantras) of Yogananda and Sri Yuktesvara Giri by putting the founder of the line, Babaji on his Dark Horse album cover. George Harrison was very fond of Babaji and Yogananda and was often seen wearing buttoms of their pictured likenesses or visiting the Self Realization Fellowship in Encinitas, California. http://heroinc.0catch.com/george/smas3418.jpghttp://heroinc.0catch.com/george/3418-2.jpg Dark Horse Apple SMAS-3418 Dec. 9, 1974

[BlackBillBlake]

Here he is from the inner sleeve of 'Extra Texture' (1975) wearing just such a button.


http://img42.exs.cx/img42/601/image0069kb.jpg

[BlackBillBlake]

"My predecessors have invariably said, 'My belief is right and yours is wrong; my customs are worthy, yours are ignoble; my dress is decent, yours is not; think as I think, talk as I talk, do as I do, or you will be wretched, poor, sick, disgraced and dammed; besides which, I shall cut your head off, burn you alive, starve you, imprison you, ostracize you and otherwise make you sorry you did not agree to be a good boy.' The essence of every missionary message has been to assimilate the taught to the teacher; and it has always been accompanied by bribes and threats. My message is exactly opposed to any of this. I say to each man and woman, 'You are unique and sovereign, the centre of an universe. However right I may be in thinking as I do, you may be equally right in thinking otherwise. You can only accomplish your object in life by complete disregard of the opinions of other people. You must not even take the outward signs of success as indications that the course of action which has produced them would serve your turn. For one thing, my coronet might not suit your complexion but give you a headache; for another, the measures which I took to obtain that coronet might not succeed in your case.'


Aleister Crowley.

[ChiefCowpie]

I grew up in a small town along the Appalachian Blue Ridge Mountains.
My Grandfather was minister in one of the town’s churches.

I grew up with the impression in the innocence of my childhood
that because he was minister in the church, somehow he was able to talk to God.

I smile upon remembering times had as a young boy which seemed to be not so much
about his ability to talk to God but his ability to talk to me.

And to the day he died when I was thirteen, he only ever talked to me
and somehow God was never a part of the picture.

Through many years to this day I have met complete strangers who have told me stories
of how my Grandfather visited them or someone they knew in the hospital.

And sat and talked with them
as it seemed it was my Grandfather’s favorite thing to do.

To walk hospital halls and visit the sick and the hospitalized
and whether he knew them or not, just simply talk and chat.

And told of how this brought them comfort and dissolved the pain
and even doing this long into retirement.

Later on I learned the truth as an adult that one can merely declare oneself a minister of God
and it does not necessarily mean you can talk to God.

But now, with each person I meet to this day who tells me
of how my grandfather brought comfort in his visits.

And how he was a wonderful and loving and kind person,
I know my Grandfather was talking to God.

[ChiefCowpie]

http://urhit.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/devi.gif

Jai Durga Ma!

[ChiefCowpie]

http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/gthursby/tantra/krish3.gifhttp://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/gthursby/tantra/tantspac.gif


http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/gthursby/tantra/ss2.gif

Shri Krishna as Kali

O daughter of the snow-capped mountain! That Ananga whose bow is of flowers, whose bow string is of a row of bees, who has five arrows, who has as his feudatory Vasanta, and the Malaya breeze as his chariot, he, even though thus equipped, having obtained some grace from thy side glance, conquers all this world single-handed - Saundaryalahari, 6



In places in the tantrik tradition, the Krishna avatar of Vishnu is often identified with Kali (http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/gthursby/tantra/kali.htm). This reaches a peak in the Tantrarajatantra, where it is said that having already charmed the world of men as herself, Lalita (http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/gthursby/tantra/tripura.htm) took a male form as Krishna and then proceeded to enchant women. In this work, Krishna has six forms, identified with the six senses (including Mind). They are Kamaraja Gopala, Manmatha Gopala, Kandarpa Gopala, Makaraketana Gopala and Manobhava Gopala. Their meditation images (dhyana according to the same work, describes them as being like dawn, http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/gthursby/tantra/krishbl.gif with six arms, holding flute, noose, goad, sugar cane bow and a bowl of curds. These are the five arrows of Lalita and the bow and here Krishna is identified with Kameshvara, the Indian god of love, who is otherwise called Ananga, and, like Cupid, is armed with a bow.

The Kalivilasa Tantra, a Bengali work, states Krishna was born as the son of Devi who was golden (Gauri) and turned black when he was excited by passion. In the Todala Tantra, each of the ten Mahavidyas, forms of the supreme Goddess, has her own male counterpart and here Krishna is said to be the spouse of Kali. There are many images of Krishna in India which show him as black. An Indian commentator to the hymn to Kali called Karpuradistotra, goes further and says that there is a connection between the bija mantra of Kali which is Krim, Krishna and Christ. Whatever the truth of that identification, it is certain that to many ordinary folk in India, Krishna and Christ do have a resonance. Often you will see contemporary images of Krishna and Christ together in the inside of houses. Krishna (and his tantrika counterpart Kameshvara) are moved by love (prem).

The Victorian print at the top left of this page shows Radha, Krishna's shakti, worshipping Krishna as Kali, while the image on the left is a contemporary print (copyright acknowledged but of unknown provenance).

In the Brihat Tantra Sara, a large compilation of tantrik rites, Krishna appears as a fully-flowered tantrika devata, with his own yantra (http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/gthursby/tantra/yantra.htm), gayatri (http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/gthursby/tantra/gayatri.htm), mantra and puja (http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/gthursby/tantra/ritual.htm) http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/gthursby/tantra/krislit.gif (http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/gthursby/tantra/krisyanw.gif) or ritual which uses this yantra (click on this image for full size yantra). In the hexagon in the centre of the yantra, the following words appear: Krishnaya Govindaya Klim sadhya Gopijanavallabhaya Svaha. In the corners of the hexagon are the bija mantras Hrim and Shrim. Outside the hexagon is the Krisna mantra which runs: Klim Krishnaya Namah. In the petals of the yantra is a longer mantra Namah Kamadevaya Sarvajanapriyaya Sarvajansammohanaya Jvala Prajvala Sarvajanasya Hridayamavamsham Kurukura Svaha. Around the eight petals are the Matrikas or letters of the Sanskrit alphabet while in the angles of the protecting wall are bija mantras Hrim and Shrim, once more. Although commonly associated with Shaivite and Shakta concerns, in reality there is no sectarianism in the tradition. In many of the texts of the tradition, it is stated that it is only a fool who makes any distinction between the two. The forms of Vishnu, however, often have a more emotional tinge to them than those of Shiva (http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/gthursby/tantra/shiva.htm), who can be portrayed as a highly terrifying figure. Trailokyamohana Vishnu, for example, in the Prapanchasara Tantra, is meditated upon as in the middle of a garden of Aeon Trees, scented with flowers and musical from the sound of bees, with his shakti Shri Lakshmi. She is bathed in sweat from her passion for him while around them both are the women of the household, all pierced by the arrows of Kama, god of sexuality, all shameless with their passion.

Artwork is © Jan Bailey, 1995. Translations are © Mike Magee 1995. Questions or comments to ac70@cityscape.co.uk (ac70@cityscape.co.uk)

Home Page (http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/gthursby/tantra/index.html)

[BlackBillBlake]

Jai Ma!

[BlackBillBlake]

klim krishna ! hrim kali ! http://guruji.narod.ru/picture05.jpg





The unity of Kali and Krishna can be discovered through analyzing
their bija mantras and their names:

Kali = krIM
Krishna = klIM

First of all, they only differ by one letter.

Second, if you take each bija letter by letter, you can arrive at the
correspocding name of the other:

klIM (Krishna bija) = ka + la + I + M ~ KALI

krIM (Kali bija) = ka + ra + I + M ~ KRISHNA (First 3 letters anyway.)

They are not exact, but neither are these two deities the same in
OUTWARD form.

Their INNER unity is shown in their beginning, "ka"; their middle,
"I"; and their end "M." The one letter difference changes the entire
outward form and function of the deity ("ra" is fire = transformation
= Kali and "la" is Earth or Krishna coming to Earth).

Further, "krishna" means dark, and Kali is darkness Herself.

Finally, Kali has been translated as "She who takes away the darkness"
and Krishna was Vishnu's avatar who descended in the Dvapara Yuga to
take away the darkness of that age. Surely Kali was the shakti behind
Krishna...

http://guruji.narod.ru/kaligopala.html

[BlackBillBlake]

Sri Ramakrishna (surcharged with bhava) — Tell me if you have any doubt. I shall explain everything.

Govinda and other devotees begin to think.

Govinda — Revered sir, why does Shyama (Kali) have such complexion? (black)

Sri Ramakrishna — It is because She is at distance. Going nearer, there is no colour. The water in a pond looks dark from a distance. Go near it, take some in your hand and you will see that it has no colour. Sky appears blue from a distance. See the sky that is nearer, you will find no colour. The nearer you go to the Lord, the more you will realize that He has neither name nor form. Move a little away, you will again find your same Mother Shyama ; She has the complexion as that of the grass and flowers. Is Shyama Purusha or Prakriti? A bhakta performed worship. Another man came and saw the deity wearing a sacred thread. The latter said, ‘You have put the sacred thread round the Mother’s neck.’ The former said, ‘Brother, only you have recognized the Mother. As for me, I have never been able to know whether She is Purusha or Prakriti. So I have put a sacred thread round her neck.’

“The One who is Shyama is also Brahman. The One who has form is also formless. The Being who has attributes is also without-attributes. Brahman is Shakti and Shakti is Brahman. Inseparable. The male Sachchidananda and the female Sachchidananda.”

Govinda — Why do we call Yogamaya?

Sri Ramakrishna — Yogamaya means the union of Purusha and Prakriti. Whatever you see is all the union of Purusha and Prakriti. The image of Shiva and Kali, Kali stands on Shiva. Shiva is lying like a corpse. Kali is looking at Shiva. All this is the union of Purusha and Prakriti. Purusha is inactive, so Shiva is lying like a corpse. It is in conjunction with Purusha that Prakriti performs all Her actions; She creates, preserves and dissolves.

“The dual image of Radha and Krishna (both Radha and Krishna in one piece) also signifies the same. Because of this union they are bent towards each other. To denote this very union Sri Krishna wears a pearl in his nose and Radha a blue stone in hers. Radha has the fair complexion of a bright pearl. Sri Krishna is of dark complexion. For this reason Radha wears the blue stone. Furthermore, Sri Krishna’s apparel is yellow while that of Radha is blue.
“Who is a superior devotee? He who sees after attaining Brahmajnana that God alone has become the universe and the twenty-four categories. He first reaches the roof by discriminating ‘not this, not this.’ Then he sees that the steps are also made of the same material; brick, lime, and brick-dust; with which the roof is made. Then he sees that Brahman Himself has become the creatures and the universe, all.



Sri Ramakrishna.

[Little flower]

Blessed be!

With your devotions, you are healing the planET.
merry meet!
thank u! r u wiccan?
i am trying 2 do all i can 4 da earth/planet :)

[ChiefCowpie]

merry meet!
thank u! r u wiccan?
i am the cosmos

i am trying 2 do all i can 4 da earth/planet :)
bravo! keep up the good work or play or joy or whatever you call it

[BlackBillBlake]

http://www.littleflower.org/

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

Just poking in and saying Hi! Its all snowy 'round here..its crazy...we just had a blizzard. I hope you're all doing well...just felt like poking around...I don't really have anything on topic to say...lol

:)

*Peace and Love*
Nicole

[BlackBillBlake]

Nice to see you're still around Nicole :)


Om Shanti.

[MaestroD]

HOW TO TURN $6 INTO $6,000!!!!!!



READING THIS COULD CHANGE YOUR LIFE!



I found this on a bulletin board and decided to try it. A little while back, I was browsing through newsgroups, just like you are now, and came across an article similar to this that said you could make thousands of dollars within weeks with only an initial investment of $6.00! So I thought, Yeah right, this must be a scam,but like most of us, I was curious, so I kept reading. Anyway, it said that you send $1.00 to each of the 6 names and address stated in the article. You then place your own name and address in the bottom of the list at #6, and post the article in at least 200 newsgroups. (There are thousands) No catch, that was it. So after thinking it over, and talking to a few people first, I thought about trying it. I figured: what have I got to lose except 6 stamps and $6.00, right? Then I invested the measly $6.00. Well GUESS WHAT!!... within 7 days, I started getting money in the mail! I was shocked! I figured it would end soon, but the money just kept coming in. In my first week, I made about $25.00. By the end of the second week I had made a total of over $1,000.00! In the third week I had over $10,000.00 and it's still growing. This is now my fourth week and I have made a total of just over $42,000.00 and it's still coming in rapidly. It's certainly worth $6.00, and 6 stamps, I have spent more than that on the lottery!! Let me tell you how this works and most importantly, why it works....Also, make sure you print a copy of this article NOW, so you can get the information off of it as you need it. I promise you that if you follow the directions exactly, that you will start making more money than you thought possible by doing something so easy!



Suggestion: Read this entire message carefully! (print it out or download it.) Follow the simple directions and watch the money come in! It's easy. It's legal. And, your investment is only $6.00 (Plus postage)



IMPORTANT: This is not a rip-off; it is not indecent; it is not illegal; and it is virtually no risk - it really works!!!! If all of the following instructions are adhered to, you will receive extraordinary dividends.



PLEASE NOTE:

Please follow these directions EXACTLY, and $50,000 or more can be yours in 20 to 60 days. This program remains successful because of the honesty and integrity of the participants. Please continue its success by carefully adhering to the instructions. You will now become part of the Mail Order business. In this business your product is not solid and tangible, it's a service. You are in the business of developing Mailing Lists. Many large corporations are happy to pay big bucks for quality lists. However, the money made from the mailing lists is secondary to the income which is made from people like you and me asking to be included in that list. Here are the 4 easy steps to success:



STEP 1: Get 6 separate pieces of paper and write the following on each piece of paper;PLEASE PUT ME ON YOUR MAILING LIST. Now get 6 US $1.00 bills and place ONE inside EACH of the 6 pieces of paper so the bill will not be seen through the envelope (to prevent thievery). Next, place one paper in each of the 6 envelopes and seal them. You should now have 6 sealed envelopes, each with a piece of paper stating the above phrase, your name and address, and a $1.00 bill. What you are doing is creating a service. THIS IS ABSOLUTELY LEGAL! You are requesting a legitimate service and you are paying for it! Like most of us I was a little skeptical and a little worried about the legal aspects of it all. So I checked it out with the U.S. Post Office (1-800-725-2161) and they confirmed that it is indeed legal! Mail the 6 envelopes to the following addresses:



#1) Jeff Millan

1113 N. 19 ½

McAllen,TX 78501

#2) R. Overton

P.O. Box 18818

So. Lake Tahoe, CA 96151

#3) KEVIN LEE

8377 APT. I MONTGOMERY RUN RD.

ELLICOTT CITY MD 21043

#4) Stephanie Hicks

1283 Evening Canyon

Henderson NV 89014

#5) Jonah Lloyd

3700 Sharon Gagnon Ln C439

Anchorage, AK 99508

#6) D. Weidner

1957 Mesquite Ave. #3

Lake Havasu City, AZ 86403



STEP 2: Now take the #1 name off the list that you see above, move the other names up (6 becomes 5, 5 becomes 4, etc...) and add YOUR Name as number 6 on the list.



STEP 3: Change anything you need to, but try to keep this article as close to original as possible. Now, post your amended article to at least 200 newsgroups. (I think there are close to 24,000 groups) All you need is 200, but remember, the more you post, the more money you make! This is perfectly legal! If you have any doubts, refer to Title 18 Sec. 1302 & 1341 of the Postal lottery laws. Keep a copy of these steps for yourself and, whenever you need money, you can use it again, and again.



PLEASE REMEMBER that this program remains successful because of the honesty and integrity of the participants and by their carefully adhering to the directions. Look at it this way. If you are of integrity, the program will continue and the money that so many others have received will come your way.



NOTE: You may want to retain every name and address sent to you, either on a computer or hard copy and keep the notes people send you. This VERIFIES that you are truly providing a service. (Also, it might be a good idea to wrap the $1 bill in dark paper to reduce the risk of mail theft.)

So, as each post is downloaded and the directions carefully followed, six members will be reimbursed for their participation as a List Developer with one dollar each. Your name will move up the list geometrically so that when your name reaches the #1 position you will be receiving thousands of dollars in CASH!!! What an opportunity for only $6.00 ($1.00 for each of the first six people listed above) Send it now, add your own name to the list and you're in business!



---DIRECTIONS ----- FOR HOW TO POST TO NEWSGROUPS------------

Step 1) You do not need to re-type this entire letter to do your own posting. Simply put your cursor at the beginning of this letter and drag your cursor to the bottom of this document, and select 'copy' from the edit menu. This will copy the entire letter into the computer's memory.



Step 2) Open a blank 'notepad' file and place your cursor at the top of the blank page. From the 'edit' menu select 'paste'. This will paste a copy of the letter into notepad so that you can add your name to the list.



Step 3) Save your new notepad file as a .txt file. If you want to do your postings in different settings, you'll always have this file to go back to.



Step 4) Use Netscape or Internet explorer and try searching for various newsgroups (on-line forums, message boards, chat sites, discussions.)



Step 5) Visit these message boards and post this article as a new message by highlighting the text of this letter and selecting paste from the edit menu. Fill in the Subject, this will be the header that everyone sees as they scroll through the list of postings in a particular group, click the post message button. You're done with your first one! Congratulations...THAT'S IT! All you have to do is jump to different newsgroups and post away, after you get the hang of it, it will take about 30 seconds for each newsgroup! **REMEMBER, THE MORE NEWSGROUPS YOU POST IN, THE MORE MONEY YOU WILL MAKE!! BUT YOU HAVE TO POST A MINIMUM OF 200**

That's it! You will begin receiving money from around the world within days! You may eventually want to rent a P.O.Box due to the large amount of mail you will receive. If you wish to stay anonymous, you can invent a name to use, as long as the postman will deliver it. **JUST MAKE SURE ALL THE ADDRESSES ARE CORRECT.**



Now the WHY part:

Out of 200 postings, say I receive only 5 replies (a very low example). So then I made $5.00 with my name at #6 on the letter. Now, each of the 5 persons who just sent me $1.00 make the MINIMUM 200 postings, each with my name at #5 and only 5 persons respond to each of the original 5, that is another $25.00 for me, now those 25 each make 200 MINIMUM posts with my name at #4 and only 5 replies each, I will bring in an additional $125.00! Now, those 125 persons turn around and post the MINIMUM 200 with my name at #3 and only receive 5 replies each, I will make an additional $626.00! OK, now here is the fun part, each of those 625 persons post a MINIMUM 200 letters with my name at #2 and they each only receive 5 replies, that just made me $3,125.00!!! Those 3,125 persons will all deliver this message to 200 newsgroups with my name at #1 and if still 5 persons per 200 newsgroups react I will receive $15,625,00! With an original investment of only $6.00! AMAZING! When your name is no longer on the list, you just take the latest posting in the newsgroups, and send out another $6.00 to names on the list, putting your name at number 6 again. And start posting again. The thing to remember is: do you realize that thousands of people all over the world are joining the internet and reading these articles everyday?, JUST LIKE YOU are now!! So, can you afford $6.00 and see if it really works?? I think so... People have said, &quote;what if the plan is played out and no one sends you the money? So what! What are the chances of that happening when there are tons of new honest users and new honest people who are joining the internet and newsgroups everyday and are willing to give it a try? Estimates are at 20,000 to 50,000 new users, every day, with thousands of those joining the actual internet.

Remember: play FAIRLY and HONESTLY and this will really work.



Thank you, and have a nice day! :)

[ChiefCowpie]

Chaitanyas Madhva Affiliation

The Chaitanya sect some time after it's birth was affiliated as a sub-branch of the Madhva-sect which was the most influential in Bengal before the time of Chaitanya.

It is said that Chaitanya himself was brought up in the Madhva tradition. His predecessor, Advaita, as well as many of his influentilial relatives and associates had close connection with Madhvaism.

Madhavendra Puri was the initiator of the bhakti movement in Bengal before Sri Chaitanya. Iswar Puri and Madhavendra Puri, the two preceptors of Chaitanya, are claimed to have been ascetics of the Madhva-sect.

But the Madhva-sect itself never mentioned the names of Madhavendra Puri or Iswar Puri in the list of succession prepared by R.G. Bhadarkar from the original lists produced from Miraj, Belgaum and Poona.

Baladeva's list differs materially from this more authentic list.

Anandin in his commentary on Prabodhananda's Chaitanya Chandrarita claims that Chaitanya Himself and his followers were the founders of the Bengal Sampradaya and owed nothing to the Gurus of any other Sampradaya.

Madhvaism or affiliation to the Madhva-sect is never acknowledged in the important authoritative biographies of Chaitanya nor in the words of the Vrndavana Gosvamis.

Only Kavi Karnapura, in his Gauraganoddesha dipika, described Madhavendra Puri, Iswar Puri and Chaitanya as Madhva ascetics. But in the drama Chaitanya Chandrodaya, Kavi Karnapura never mentioned Madhavendra Puri as a Madhva ascetic. On the other hand, Chaitanya was a sannyasi of the advaitavadin order.

Baladeva Visyabhusan, in his Govinda bhasya on Vedanta sutra and in his Prameya-Ratnavali attribute Madhva affiliation when giving the Guru-Parampara. He also describes Chaitanya as a Madhva ascetic, reason being his guru Radha Damodara appears to have been considerably influenced by Madhva in his Vedanta-syamantaka, and the disciple Baladeva had strong leanings towards Madhvism which is clear from his erudite writings in Prameya-ratnavali.

Chaitanya formally belonged to the dasnami order of Sankara Sannyasis, though Vaishnava Bhakti movement had nothing to do with the extreme advaitavada of Shankara.

Barring these two authors, there is no mention anywhere that Madhavendra Puri or his disciple Iswar Puri were Madhva-ascetics. Perhaps Kavi Karnapura and Baladeva Vidyabhusan derived the list from the same source.

There is no evidence that Madhavendra Puri or Iswar Puri or Advaita had Madhva outlook.

The sannyas name of Madhva was Ananda Tirtha. He himself was a sannyasi of the Shankara order. But both Madhavendra and Iswar were Puris not Tirthas, while Keshava Bharati belonged to the bharati order of Shankara.

At Puri, Chaitanya was introduced to Vasudev Sarvabauma as a sannyasi of the Bharati order of Shankara. Chaitanyas sannyas was through advaita parampara. His indulgence in singing and dancing is in direct disapproval of Madhva doctrine.

All the facts jointly go against Chaitanyas alleged connection with Madvaism. S.K.De, on the origins of Chaitanyaism is of the opinion that Chaitanya never belonged to the Madhva-sect, or was never influenced by Madvaism, on the other hand, he stated that Madhavendra Puri and his disciple, Iswar Puri were Shankarite sannyasis of the same order to which Sridhara Swami belonged.

Madhavendra Puri sowed the seed of Bhakti in the soil of Bengal and Chaitanya is the ‘Noble Tree’ of that seed. Chaitanya took initation from Madhvendra Puri’s disciple Iswar Puri…

From ‘Chaitanya Movement in Eastern Bengal’

[Little flower]

i am the cosmos


bravo! keep up the good work or play or joy or whatever you call it

thank u i will! :)

[Little flower]

http://www.littleflower.org/

lolllllllllllll

[BlackBillBlake]

Glad you appreciate the humour ! :sunglasse

[ChiefCowpie]

Like my last post, I will be posting some material that brings into question the histoical understandings of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu as presented by mainstream Gaudiya Vaisnavism. Of interest in the previous post of mine was linking Mahaprabhu to Advaitist or Sankaric thought.


The material below is from [url=http://www.audarya-fellowship.com/showflat/cat/hinduism/11542/29/collapsed/5/o/all]


------------------
[Jagat writes: From the upcoming book on Puri from Mandala Media. This article is based primarily on Sundarananda Vidyavinoda's Sri Kshetra, with added research by yours truly. The tone is decidedly Sundarananda's. Please note that Sanskrit, Orissan and Bengali text is in Balaram font, so to see the diacritics as they are, you will have to convert the tANotext on your own word precessor:]

Boro Oriya Math

The Boro Oriya Math was established by Atibori Jagannath Das, who is known in Orissa as one of the Pancha Sakhas, or “five friends.” Jagannath Das was an associate of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu who translated the Bhagavatam into the Orissan language. He did immeasurable service to the spreading of Vaishnavism in Orissa, but because of certain deviations from the teachings of Mahaprabhu, his followers are considered by the Gaudiya Vaishnavas to be an apasampradaya, or heterodox sect.

From the accounts given by the residents of the Boro Oriya Math, its original buildings were formerly the palace of Maharaja Prataparudra’s chief queen, Gauri Devi, one of Jagannath Das’ disciples, who made him a present of it. This version has been confirmed in Jagannätha-caritämåta, Dibakar Das’ biography of Jagannath Das. Even now, when one enters the Math, it gives the impression of being an old palace or fort, with many walls to pass through before reaching the inner sanctum.

The Math’s deities are Radha and Krishna, Jagannath and Lakshmi Devi. Subhadra and Baladeva do not accompany Lord Jagannath. Deities of Shyama Raya, Gopinath and Lord Chaitanya in his six-armed form stand in the Jagamohan. There is a large courtyard containing Lord Krishna’s swing, or jhulan. During the Jhulan Yatra, Subhadra Devi comes from the main temple to visit the Boro Oriya Math.

One thing that distinguishes the Boro Oriya Math from Gaudiya Vaishnava maths is the placing of the deity of Mahaprabhu, which is not kept on the altar in the deity house, but in the Jagamohan. In the Gaudiya Vaishnava maths of Puri, the murti of the spiritual master (such as Gopal Guru, Hari Das Thakur, or Mamu Thakur) is generally placed on a separate altar or shrine on the porch, while Mahaprabhu is placed on the main altar with other Vishnu tattva deities or on a separate altar equal to those of Radha Krishna and Lord Jagannath.

The Boro Oriya Math is still one of the wealthier traditional maths in Jagannath Puri. In 1950, it had an annual income of Rs. 50,000 from various rent-free land holdings. It is also one of the maths most involved in the Jagannath temple’s rituals; its duties are enshrined in the temple record, the Madala-panji. The Boro Oriya Math thus supplies the twenty liters of polanga oil needed every day for the temple lamps, at a cost of almost Rs 1,000. During the Anasar, the Math supplies a new applique canopy called Trimunda Chandua, and is also vested with the duty of cleaning the Ratnavedi before Rathayatra. Besides these services, it also supplied the pillows that were used in Pahandi, the black cloth to mother Bimala, and a special bhoga at the time of Rukmini’s marriage to Krishna. The mahant of the Boro Oriya Math dresses as a woman to clean the Gundicha temple, a tradition that, according to math authorities, was started by Jagannath Das himself.

Jagannath Das’ life

Jagannath was born on the Radhashtami day in 1490 in the village of Kapileshwarpur, about six miles west of Puri town. This village is one of the sixteen Shasans, that is, it is one of the Brahmin villages surrounding Puri founded by the Gajapati king Kapilendra Deva, whose leaders sit in the Mukti Mandap.

Jagannath Das was a Brahmin family of the Kaushika Gotra, which had the family title “Das.” Jagannath Das’ mother was named Padmavati. His father Bhagavan Das attained considerable renown as a speaker on the Bhagavatam in Orissan. King Purushottam Deva was particularly pleased with his delightful explanations of the Bhagavata philosophy and gave him the “Purana Panda” title. Bhagavan Das trained his son to follow in his footsteps as a Purana Panda. He started making arrangements for Jagannath Das’ marriage when he was twelve years old, but Jagannath asked to put off the wedding until after he had finished studying the scriptures. He never married.

Jagannath Das became an expert in his work as a speaker of the Bhagavatam. He went to the Sri Mandir and set up a place inside the Kurma Berha by the Bata Ganesh deity near the southern entrance where he could reach a large number of pilgrims visiting the temple. Because of his handsome appearance, sweet voice and wide learning, he was able to attract a substantial following.

Jagannath Das was still a young man at the time that Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu took sannyas and came to Sri Purushottam Kshetra with His associates in order to teach the world to seek out love for Lord Krishna. According to the Jagannätha-caritämåta, Jagannath Das’ first meeting with Mahaprabhu came when the Lord was visiting the temple. The Lord saw him lecturing on Lord Brahma’s prayers from the Tenth Canto. Jagannath Das got up from his seat and followed Lord Chaitanya as He and His other companions circumambulated the temple.

Not long thereafter, Jagannath Das went to Kashi Mishra’s house to ask Mahaprabhu to give him initiation. Since Mahaprabhu did not give initiation, He sent him to an Orissan devotee named Matta Balaram Das, another one of the Pancha Sakhas, who gave him diksha in Kashi Mishra’s house.

According to another account, Jagannath Das met Mahaprabhu in Jajpur while the Lord was on His way to Puri for the first time. Mahaprabhu took Jagannath Das with Him to Puri and after some time had Hari Das Thakur initiate him in the chanting of the Maha Mantra. After this, Jagannath Das returned to Jajpur where he started making disciples and translating the Bhagavatam into Orissan verse. While here, he began developing an independent vision of Vaishnava philosophy, in particular giving up following the example set by Hari Das Thakur, the acharya of the Holy Name. Gaudiya Vaishnavas cannot understand why Jagannath Das reversed the order of the Maha Mantra, chanting the names of Rama before those of Krishna, in contradiction to the teachings of the fathers of sankirtan, Gauranga and Nityananda Prabhus, and the acharya of the Holy Name, Hari Das Thakur.

Jagannath Das’ Bhagavata

Jagannath Das’ Orissan Bhagavata is considered by many to be the jewel of early Orissan literature. It had a great influence in the standardizing of the Orissan language of Orissa, through its judicious combining of Sanskrit and local words. Its popularity in Orissa is comparable to that of Tulasi Das’ Räma-carita-mänasa in North India and it is still worshiped in many Orissan homes. Every Orissan village used to have a small house or room known as bhagavata tungi, where villagers would gather to listen to recitations of Jagannath Das’ Bhagavata. Many of its verses have become proverbial and are cited frequently by people throughout Orissa.

The Boro Oriya Math continues to supply the Sri Mandir with copies of Jagannath Das’ Bhagavata and its members recite it to groups of pilgrims inside the temple every day. This Bhagavata has also been published in Bengali characters in the Midnapore district, which was politically a part of Orissa at many different times in history and where the culture and language are something of a hybrid of Bengali and Oriya.

Jagannath Das’ Bhagavata is not an exact translation. He added several chapters and in many place contradicts the meaning of the original text, allowing elements of Mayavada to enter. In fact, the introduction of Mayavada into Jagannath Das’ writings can be explained by the general background of Orissan religious history. Buddhism had been very strong in Orissa for many centuries, and even after the turn to Vaishnavism with Ganga dynasty in the 12th century, elements of Vajrayana Buddhism persisted in the society, just as it did in other parts of Eastern India. The Orissan Buddhists considered Jagannath to be a manifestation of the Buddha. It seems that Maharaj Prataparudra even persecuted the vestiges of overt Buddhism in Orissa during the early part of his reign. Many of these Buddhists took shelter of Vaishnavism as a way of escaping persecution, but the Buddhist philosophy of shunya-vada found a home in the teachings of the Pancha Sakha, who combined Mahaprabhu’s path of bhakti with jnana and yoga.

Many elements of the Pancha Sakha doctrine have similarities to Baul and Sahajiya beliefs in Bengal. Like the Nath Yogis, they hold that the body is a microcosm of the universe in which the cosmic dance of the Supreme Lord plays itself out. They identify Radha and Krishna with the individual soul and the paramatma in the body. They conceive of the ultimate truth as Void, or shunya, which becomes manifest in creation as Maha Vishnu. In his Bhagavata, Jagannath Das refers to Lord Jagannath as shunya-niranjana, alekha-niranjana, nirguna brahma and avatari.

On the Pancha Sakha path, devotional practices like chanting the Holy Name are to be combined with the physical disciplines of Hatha Yoga and the cultivation of knowledge. In their writings, the Pancha Sakha identify Chaitanya Mahaprabhu with both the Buddha and Lord Jagannath. Jagannath Das does not overtly present all of the Pancha Sakha doctrines in his Bhagavata, though they are found in some of his other works.

Jagannath Das is said to have written a number of books besides his verse translation of the Bhagavata. These include Shola-caupadi (“Sixteen quatrains”), Shaivagama-bhagavata (“The story of the Lord in the Shaiva Agama scriptures”), Gundicha-bije (“The trip to Gundicha”), Satsanga-varnana (“A description of saintly companionship”), and Goloka-saroddhara (“Extracting the essence of Goloka”) and Tulabhina. There are also a few titles of Sanskrit books that are claimed, to various degrees of credibility, to Jagannath Das.

The title “Atibori”

Jagannath Das’s hagiographer, Dibakar Das tells how he was given the title “Atibori.” One day Chaitanya Deva asked Jagannath Das to tell him who he had been in his previous life. Jagannath Das answered, “You are the Supersoul, O Lord, and so you know everything already. Even so, I will tell you what I believe. Once I was meditating on Radha and Krishna and completely forgot my material body. I saw Radha and Krishna ecstatically gazing into each other’s eyes. They started to laugh and out of Krishna’s laughter I saw You appear. Then I was born out of Radharani’s laughter.”


äpaëa çré-aìga pächoåi kaçä basan aìgu käåi
däsaìka çire bändhi dele atibaåa boli boile
atibaåa kathä kahile teëu atibaåa hoile


Mahaprabhu then took His upper cloth and wrapped it around Jagannath Das’ head and said, “You have said something very profound. Thus you shall be known from now on as ‘very great’ or Atiboro.” (Jagannätha-charitamrita, chapter 3)


Orthodox followers of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu remember that He ostracized Vallabha Bhatta for showing pride in his achievements as a scholar and superiority to Sridhar Swami, the great commentator on the Bhagavatam. Mahaprabhu disapproved of the Mayavadi custom of addressing a renunciate or sannyasi as “Narayan.” If anyone formally addressed Him in that way, or being overwhelmed by His spiritual power called Him “Krishna,” He would cover His ears and say,

viñëu viñëu ihä nä kahibä
jévädhame kåñëa jïäna kabhu nä karibä
jei müòha kohe jéva éçvara haya sama
sei to päñaëòé haya daëòe täre yama

“O Vishnu, Vishnu! Don’t say such things. Never consider an ordinary conditioned soul to be Krishna. The fool who takes an ordinary living being to be the same as God is nothing more than an atheist who will be severely judged at the time of death.” (CC 2.18.111, 116)

When Prakashananda Saraswati called Mahaprabhu “Bhagavan” and tried to touch His feet, the Lord showed how a jiva should behave when spoken to in this way:

viñëu viñëu ämi kñudra jéva héna
jéve kåñëa mäne ei aparädha cihna
jéva viñëu buddhi kare je brahmä rudra sama
näräyaëe mäne täre päñaëòe gaëana

“O Vishnu! O Vishnu! I am an ordinary, fallen jiva. Anyone who thinks a jiva like Me is Krishna is committing an offense. The scriptures say that anyone who thinks even gods like Brahma or Rudra to be on the same level as Narayan is an atheist. This is true for someone who thinks any jiva is Vishnu.” (CC 2.25.75-77)

Mahaprabhu made statements like these in order to give fair warning to those who confuse the individual soul with the Supreme Being. He did this despite being the Supreme Lord Himself. It is very hard to accept that He would have rewarded anyone for publicly claiming to be a manifestation of the Lord’s svarupa shakti, Srimati Radharani. Gaudiya Vaishnavas therefore do not accept the truth of Dibakar Das’s account. If Mahaprabhu did indeed say any such thing to Jagannath Das, it was surely sarcasm or deception. The Gaudiyas thus interpret Mahaprabhu’s words as meaning, "My dear sir, you have become too great (ati boro). An insignificant and fallen soul like Me can have nothing to do with you."

[ChiefCowpie]

Schism of Bengali and Orissan Vaishnavas



Dibakar Das writes that Mahaprabhu’s Bengali devotees became jealous of Jagannath Das because of the special favor that their master was bestowing on him. He goes on to say that the Bengali devotees made efforts to stop Mahaprabhu from giving the title Atiboro to Jagannath Das. The reason for this was that if he were to be somehow singled out in this way, their own status would be diminished. When the Bengali devotees were unable to convince Mahaprabhu to do as they asked, they asked Him to leave Puri. When Mahaprabhu refused, they themselves left Jagannath Puri to go to Vrindavan. Though from time to time they would return to meet Mahaprabhu during the Rathayatra, they were unable to abide seeing the influence Jagannath Das had over Him and so never remained there for long.



The feeling that Mahaprabhu’s Bengali devotees were jealous of His Orissan followers like Jagannath Das remains a source of friction to the present day. Sundarananda quotes the following article from the English-language newspaper, New Orissa, published in 1945:



“Mahapurush Jagannath Das was a personal friend of Chaitanya. It is written in Dibakar’s Jagannätha-caritämåta that Gaudiya Vaishnavas did not like that Chaitanya should hold Jagannath Das, the Oriya Brahmin saint, in high esteem. It was at their insistence that Chaitanya asked Balaram Das to formally initiate Jagannath Das, though as a perfect being he required no formal initiation. After that, when they saw Chaitanya still loving Jagannath Das and addressing him all the while as atibaåé, the Gaudiya Vaishnavas had to leave Puri in a rage and go back to Bengal. They stayed for some time at Jajpur. Chaitanya went there to bring them back, but to their surprise they found Jagannath Das accompanying Chaitanya. They were so arrogant that they did not listen to Lord Chaitanya and so had to go to Bana Bishnupur and from there to Vrindavan. It is a pity that there is no mention of the names of Jagannath Das and the four Mahapurushas in Chaitanya Charitamrita by Krishna Das Kaviraj, Chaitanya Bhagavata by Vrindavan Das and Chaitanya Mangal by Lochan Das. They were all Bengali Vaishnavas. The Gaudiya Vaishnavas go so far as to say that Jagannath Das was a “Mayavadi” and was driven out by Chaitanya Chandra from his fold.”



More recently, the Orissan historian K. C. Panigrahi has been even more explicit in leveling the same accusation:



The aforesaid great Vaishnava Oriya poets have not found mention in the Bengali Gaudiya literature. This narrow outlook of the Bengali Vaishnavas was the cause of antagonism between the Bengali and Oriya followers of the great saint, echoes of which have found mention in the Jagannatha-charitamrita of Dibakar Das.



Mahaprabhu’s biographers were amongst His spiritually most advanced followers, and in their writing they demonstrated all the Vaishnava virtues, including freedom from envy. They showed no reticence in glorifying other Vaishnavas, whatever their race or caste, and repeatedly did so with great energy. Not being conditioned souls with all their lamentable characteristics, they showed no signs of misplaced nationalism or racial discrimination when writing about Mahaprabhu’s associations. In their love for Mahaprabhu, they transcended all these differences and created an atmosphere of harmony conducive to the service of the Lord.



Mahaprabhu’s Bengali followers never hesitated to glorify Orissa and its people, both directly and indirectly. Sanatan Goswami glorified Mahaprabhu in his Lélä-stava as néläcala-vibhüñaëa – “the ornament of Nilachala,” and Rupa Goswami writes in his Stava-mälä that he desires to see Mahaprabhu as Nilachala-vihari, “enjoying life in Nilachala.” In the Stavavali, Raghunath Das worships Mahaprabhu standing behind the Garuda pillar in the Jagannath temple and describes many of the Lord’s extraordinary activities in Nilachala in his Gauräìga-stava-kalpa-våkña.



In the Sarva-samvadini to the Tattva-sandarbha, Jiva Goswami glorifies Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, stating that He was worshiped by devotees from Gauda, Varendra, Banga, Suhma and Utkala (Orissa). In Chaitanya-chandrodaya, Kavi Karnapur writes that Mahaprabhu accepted the philosophy of Ramananda Raya, an Orissan, as being the only one that was wholly consistent (niravadya siddhänta).



Kaviraj Goswami goes even further in highlighting the Orissan devotees when he says that of Mahaprabhu’s four most intimate devotees, three were Orissans – Ramananda Ray, Sikhi Mahiti (a Deul Karan, or temple record keeper) and his sister Madhavi Devi. Krishna Das describes the conversations between Ramananda and Chaitanya Mahaprabhu on the highest esoteric level of devotional understanding. He called Bhavananda Ray the incarnation of Pandu, his wife Kunti, and their five sons the five Pandavas.



Krishna Das identified Kanai Khuntia and Jagannath Mahanti as Lord Chaitanya’s eternal associates, imbued with the spirit of Krishna’s parents, Nanda and Yashoda (CC 2.15.19). He named many of the Lord’s Orissan devotees, never shying away from glorifying them liberally: Maharaja Prataparudra, Kashi Mishra, Krishna Das, who would walk in front of Lord Jagannath holding a golden cane, Tulasi Paricha (the temple manager), Janardan (another temple Brahmin), Harichandan Mahapatra (a military officer and minister), Murari Mahiti (a temple accountant), Pradyumna Mishra (the head cook in the temple kitchen), Shivananda, Krishnananda, Paramananda Mahapatra, Singheshwar, Svapneshwar, Chandaneshwar and many others. But Krishna Das did not stop here; he even wrote with approval of an aged Orissan widow, who in her excitement to gaze upon the lotus-eyed Lord Jagannath, placed her foot on Mahaprabhu’s shoulder!



Far from leaving Nilachala in frustration with Mahaprabhu’s favoritism, the Bengali Vaishnavas flocked to Nilachala, as Vrindavan Das states in the Chaitanya Bhagavata:



pratäparudrera prabhu sahita darçana

ihä je çunaye täre mile prema-dhana

néläcale janmilä jateka anucara

sabe cinilena nija präëera éçvara

paramänanda mahäpätra mahäçaya

jäìra tanu çré-caitanya-bhakti-rasa-maya

käçé miçra parama vihvala kåñëa-rase

äpane rahilä prabhu jäìhära äbäse

ei mata prabhu sarva bhåtya kari saìge

niravadhi goìäyena saìkértana-raìge

jata jata udäséna çré-caitanya-däsa

sabe karilena äsi néläcale väsa



Anyone who hears about Mahaprabhu’s meeting with King Prataparudra will attain love for Krishna. All of Mahaprabhu’s eternal servants who took birth in Nilachala were able to recognize their lord and master. Amongst them were Paramananda Mahapatra, whose body was permeated with devotion to Lord Chaitanya, and another ecstatic devotee Kashi Mishra, in whose house Mahaprabhu made His residence. Mahaprabhu gathered all these devotees together and spent His time engaged in chanting the Holy Names in their company. All of Mahaprabhu’s sannyasi disciples came to Nilachala to reside near Him there. (Cbh 3.5.208-10, 212-5)



Mahaprabhu’s sannyasi disciples included Svarupa Damodar Goswami, who had previously lived in Nabadwip but came to serve Mahaprabhu by staying near Him in Puri, where the two of them could share the most esoteric experiences of devotional life. There is no evidence anywhere that Svarupa Damodar ever thought of leaving Puri for Vrindavan.



Ishwar Puri’s disciple and servant, Govinda Das, came to Puri on his spiritual masters order in order to serve Mahaprabhu there. Paramananda Puri and other devotees who were Mahaprabhu’s seniors, including Namacharya Hari Das Thakur, came to live permanently in Nilachala. Gadadhar Pandit Goswami, Mahaprabhu’s shakti, took the vow of Kshetra sannyas – to never leave Jagannath Puri for even a day.



It is true that Mahaprabhu ordered Rupa and Sanatan Goswamis to go to Vrindavan in order to discover the lost sites of Krishna’s pastimes, establish deity worship, clarify the doctrines of Vaishnava theology and the standards of Vaishnava ethics and devotional practice. He thus “gave” them the land Vrindavan, which they never left, as it had become their prabhu-datta-desh. It is difficult to understand how anyone could think that they or any other of Mahaprabhu’s followers would have gone to Vrindavan simply as a result of a personality clash with Jagannath Das or because Mahaprabhu had shown favoritism to him.

[ChiefCowpie]

Another incident from Jagannath Das’ life

In Ram Das’ Dadhyata Bhakti, a later Orissan text of the Atibori sampradaya, another story is told about Jagannath Das that clearly illustrates the difference between the Atibori way of thinking and that of the Gaudiyas. After Jagannath had completed his Oriya translation of the Bhagavatam, he travelled throughout Orissa giving discourses in his sweet, musical voice. He attracted large numbers of people to his emotional performances and especially charmed the womenfolk, who flocked to hear him. These women showered him with money and gifts and often invited him into their homes for private Bhagavata classes, something that was clearly against the custom of the time. Hearing him sing and speak on the highest aspects of Krishna’s pastimes in the privacy of their own quarters, these women would be overcome with ecstatic symptoms, rolling on the ground and in general lost all sense of decorum despite being in mixed company. Furthermore, they served Jagannath Das in various other ways, by fanning him and massaging his feet. In particular, two extraordinarily powerful women named Medha and Sumedha became his close disciples.

The men in these women’s lives became uncomfortable with such goings-on and complained to Maharaj Prataparudra. The king sent his police to arrest Jagannath and bring him to court. He asked Jagannath angrily,

kope boile däsa çuna, eki tumbhara viòambana
chädiëa puruña saìgata, stiré madhyare gäa géta
niçi dibasa sabu bele, kebala thäa näri mele


“What’s going on here, Jagannath Das? It seems that you no longer keep the company of men, but sing in the midst of women. You mix with them without any restriction, day and night. Is all this true?”

Jagannath answered Prataparudra with the following words,

svarüpa çuna daëòa-dhäré, ämbhe ta aöu brahmacäré
puruñe puruña boläuì, stiréìka saìge saìgé heuì

“Here is the truth, O King. You have the power to punish me if you will, but my vow of celibacy is unbroken. When I am amongst men, I am a male, and when amongst women, I am one of them.”

The king did not accept this argument as an adequate defense; indeed it confirmed his suspicions. He challenged Jagannath to show him proof of his female form and threw him in prison. Many of Jagannath’s women followers became quite distressed with the turn of events and stopped food and drink and even threatened to commit suicide if he were not released.

That night Jagannath Das fell to prayer, asking the Lord to save him from this calamity. Finally Lord Jagannath appeared to him in a dream and fulfilled his desire to have a female form whenever he liked.

boile bäïchä siddha heu
puruña tanu tora jäu

“May your wish be fulfilled and your male body be gone.”

The next morning Jagannath Das astonished the Gajapati by appearing before him with feminine features. According to this account, it was then that the king asked Jagannath Das to initiate his chief queen, Gauri, in this female form.

Other accounts say that Jagannath appeared as a woman to the prison guards, who released him, thinking that a mistake had been made. In either case, though this tale is told in glorification of Jagannath Das’ spiritual attainments, those who are advanced in their understanding of Gaudiya siddhanta have misgivings about them. For them, the female spiritual body is something that is extremely private and meant for one’s most personal dealings with the Lord. It is most certainly not something to be publicly displayed for the sake of achieving personal goals like adoration, prestige or even personal freedom. It is for such flaunting of his spiritual achievements that Jagannath Das’ critics consider the title “Atibori” to be veiled mockery.

The question really comes down to this: if Jagannath Das could accept the title Mahaprabhu bestowed on him, why did he not wholeheartedly accept Mahaprabhu’s teachings? The sarcastic use of a word like “very great” is not unknown. Sanskrit dictionaries give mahA paNDita (“great scholar”) as a synonym for “fool.” In Bengal, Rupa Kaviraj was another person who was condemned by such a title. Srinivas Acharya’s daughter Hemalata Thakurani broke his tulasi necklace and named him ati-bori. Thenceforth he wore but one strand of tulasi beads around his neck. The Orissan Atibori Sampradaya similarly wore only one strand of beads for many centuries and have only taken to wearing three strands in recent years.

The essence of Mahaprabhu’s teaching about Vaishnava praxis is humility – sarvottama haiyä äpnake mäne tåëädham – “Though superior to all, he considers himself lower than the straw.” Rupa, Sanatan, Hari Das Thakur, Krishna Das Kaviraj and Narottam Das – these devotees all personified this teaching. There is no evidence anywhere that any of Mahaprabhu’s devotees went about calling himself “very great.” Indeed, they consistently did the opposite. Despite the brilliance of his virtues, Krishna Das even said, “I am lower than a dung beetle; I am a greater sinner than even Jagai and Madhai.”

When Mahaprabhu complimented them or heaped praise on them, as He so often did, these devotees responded by showing an even more profound humility. If we are to believe the legends that have found life in the Atibori tradition, then the founder of their line was evidently an avid seeker of personal aggrandizement. If we believe or accept the truth of tales that say he took pride in a title that mocked such avidity, or that he made a public display of his intimate spiritual realizations and mystic achievements, then we do not glorify him as a truly great Vaishnava.

Jagannath Das’ disciplic succession

There are differing opinions amongst the Atiboris about Matta Balaram Das’ disciplic succession, but Dibakar Das writes in his Nitya-gupta-maëi (19.19-20) as follows –

çrémac-caitanya-devasya gauré-däsäkhya-paëòitaù
tasya çiñyas tu gosvämé hådayänanda-paëòitaù
tac-chiñyo matta-pürvas tu balaräma iti småtaù
mahän api jagannätha-däsas tat-paricärakaù

This verse gives the disciplic succession as (1) Chaitanya Deva, (2) Gauri Das Pandit, (3) Hridayananda Pandit Goswami, (4) Matta Balaram Das, and (5) Jagannath Das. In Ishwar Das’ Orissan Caitanya-bhägavata, Vakreshwar Pandit is named as Hridayananda’s spiritual master.

Dibakar’s version of the Boro Oriya Math’s disciplic succession is confirmed inside the temple itself. There, on one of the inner walls, paintings of the gurus in the line have been hung on the wall with their identities. The line of Mahants of the Math are given as follows:

Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu
Gauri Das Pandit
Hridayananda Pandit
Balaram Das
Atibori Jagannath Das
Ramakrishna Das
Murari Das Goswami
Purushottam Das Goswami
Mukunda Das Goswami
Madhavananda Das Goswami
Srinath Das Goswami
Vamshidhar Das Goswami
Shyamcharan Das Goswami
Niladri Das Goswami
Rasa Bihari Das Goswami
Ramakrishna Das Goswami
Vrindavan Das Goswami (Mahant during Sundarananda’s visit)

This disciplic succession is obviously problematic. The relationship of Gauri Das to Hridayananda is well known, as Shyamananda, the great apostle of the Goswamis’ message in Orissa, was his disciple. But it is also well known that Hridayananda never witnessed Mahaprabhu’s pastimes. If Jagannath Das was truly the grand-disciple of Hridayananda, he would have been Shyamananda’s junior, and certainly not a direct associate of Lord Chaitanya himself. We are left with two alternatives: either the disciplic succession as given is false, or the customary dates ascribed to Jagannath’s life (1490-1550) are incorrect. If the disciplic succession has been falsified, it still indicates that the Atibori line found it necessary to create a disciplic connection to Chaitanya Mahaprabhu for legitimation. If this line is genuine, then almost everything that has been written about Jagannath Das must be called into question. A third alternative – that the Gauri Das Pandit and Hridayananda named here are different from those found in Shyamananda’s guru parampara -- seems too great a coincidence to be considered.

Members of the Atibori sampradaya say that Jagannath Das’s name is mentioned in Devakinandan’s Vaishnava-vandana, one of the earliest sources of information about Mahaprabhu’s life. There the names of both Oriya Balaram Das and sangita pandita Jagannath Das are found. This seems to be incontrovertible evidence that these two were Mahaprabhu’s associates in Puri. However, tradition at the Siddha Bakul Math holds that a Siddha Jagannath Das was the first Mahant there after the departure of Hari Das Thakur. This Jagannath Das established the six-armed form of Mahaprabhu that is worshiped there as well as the image of Hari Das. Who is to say that this Jagannath is not the expert musician named in the Vaiñëava-vandanä? According to the Siddha Bakul traditions, this Jagannath Das was indeed an expert musician and often sang for Lord Jagannath in the temple.

The accusations of Jagannath Das’ followers that the universal absence of his name from all the accounts of Mahaprabhu’s life is due to friction between him and Mahaprabhu’s Bengali followers becomes meaningless if Jagannath Das was not Mahaprabhu’s contemporary, as indicated by the Boro Oriya Math’s disciplic succession.

Why was Jagannath Das not mentioned in Mahaprabhu’s biographies?

Mahaprabhu’s biographers named many religious leaders of the period who met with Mahaprabhu, even those whose opinions differed from Mahaprabhu’s -- Vallabha Bhatta, Keshava Kashmiri, Ramadas Vishwas, Mukunda Saraswati, Prakashananda Saraswati, to name some of them. Kaviraj Goswami did not hesitate to speak the plain truth about all of these individuals, so what was to stop him from dealing with Jagannath Das if there were historical fact there?

There are many Orissan devotees described in the biographies of Chaitanya Deva and in the subsequent generations – Gopal Guru, Dhyana Chandra, and the Oriya poet Govinda Deva, to name but a few – who have accepted orthodox Gaudiya siddhanta in these matters. If Kavi Karnapur and other biographers of Mahaprabhu have not mentioned Jagannath Das’ name, it must be because He never met him, contrary to his biographers’ accounts. The proof is the guru pranali given in the Boro Oriya Math itself.

It is also a historical truth that for many generations, the Vaishnavas of the Atibori line were ostracized by the Gaudiya Vaishnavas of Puri. They would not share Maha Prasad with them, even in Jagannath Puri. If the Atiboris were such great friends of Mahaprabhu, then why this great division?

Succession to Jagannath Das

Jagannath Das had sixteen chief disciples. In Jagannätha-caritämåta, the following verses name them,

uddhavo rämacandraç ca gopénäthaç ca çré-hariù
nandané vämané gaurä gopäläkhaëòalas tathä
janärdana-patiù kåñëa-däsaç ca vana-mälikaù
govardhanas tathä kähnu-khuëöikä na kramaà vadet
punaù çiño jagannätha-däsaç ca madhusüdanaù

(1) Uddhava, (2) Ramachandra, (3) Gopinath (4) Hari Das, (5) Nandani Acharya, (6) Vamani Mahapatra, (7) Srimati Gaura, (8) Gopal Das, (9) Akhandala Mekap, (10) Janardana Pati, (11) Krishna Das, (12) Vanamali Das, (13) Govardhan Das, (14) Kanai Khuntia, (15) Jagannath Das, (16) Madhusudan Das.

One of Mahaprabhu’s followers, the author of Mahäbhäva-prakäça, was also named Kanai Khuntia. Krishna Das Kaviraj has mentioned him in several places and states that Mahaprabhu respected him like a father (CC 2.15.19, 29). It is unlikely that Jagannath Das’ disciple of this name is the same person. Krishna Das Kaviraj does not mention Jagannath Das’ name in the Chaitanya Charitamrita, so it seems unlikely that he would name his disciple.

Sundarananda heard from the Math’s mahant, Vrindavan Dasji, that Purushottam Das, who was sixth in line of descent from Jagannath Das, had five principal disciples. Chief of these was Mukunda Das, who became the Mahant of the Boro Oriya Math. The other four disciples established branch maths, which are known as Sana (small) Oriya Maths. These are named (1) Sana Oriya Math, (2) Rama-Hari Das Math, (3) Vanamali Das Math, and (4) Bhagavata Das Math.

In the Kundhei Bent and Dandimal Sahis, there are between ten and twenty other maths belonging to this line, all of which accept the preeminence of the Boro Oriya Math. When it comes time for a new mahant to be ordained in any of these minor establishments, it is the head of the Boro Oriya Math who wraps the silk sari around his head. This sampradaya of Vaishnavas who follow Jagannath Das are spread throughout Orissa and connected maths who recognize its authority are found in the towns of Khandpara, Tigiria, Nilgiri, Athgarh, Barhamba, Narasinghapur, Dashpalla, Talcher, Dhenkanal, Nayagarh, Mayurbhanj, Ganjam and Midnapore.

Bhaktivinoda Thakur and Bishikishan

When Bhaktivinoda Thakur was a deputy magistrate stationed in Jagannath Puri in the early 1870's, he arrested, judged and jailed a pseudo-incarnation of Maha Vishnu named Bishikishan, who claimed to belong to the Atibori apasampradaya. This man had mystic powers: he would sit near a fire and lean into the flames, then lift his head and make flames come out of his hair. He had two companions who went by the names Brahma and Shiva. Many wealthy and influential Hindus of Orissa came under his sway and sent him funds for constructing a temple; they even provided him with women for “rasa-lila.” Bishikishan boasted that he would drive the British out of Orissa and rule it as a divine king.

The incident prompted Bhaktivinoda to investigate the Atiboris as a result of which he wrote a letter, dated August 18, 1871, addressed to the editor of Progress, a Cuttack newspaper, in which he described the origin, philosophy and practices of the Atibori sect. Other than the points already covered above, the Thakur also questioned the genuineness of the Atiboris’ devotion to Lord Jagannath. He wrote,

“It is a source of pride among this group to claim that Lord Jagannath has personally revealed some truth or prophecy to them. Thus every respected Atibori can recite what they call their mälikä, or series of revelations from the Lord. A common prediction one will hear from them is the year the world will end...

“The Atiboris are mystics. They practice yoga and sometimes work magic, to cure diseases, for instance. They form a secret brotherhood, like the Freemasons in the West, and are also involved with drugs like marijuana and opium.”

The Thakur reckoned there were 15,000 Atiboris in Orissa during his stay there. At that time, they were often engaged in conspiracies against the government.

Sat Lahari Math

The Sat Lahari Math is situated not far from the Hari Das Samadhi Math near the Swarga Dwar. It is the burial place of Atibori Jagannath Das. A shrine with an image of Jagannath Das once stood on this site. The followers of the Atibori Sampradaya say that this murti self-manifested twelve days after his disappearance, but it appears to have been installed much later. This figure was lost or stolen half a century ago and is no longer there.

The math is currently in serious difficulty and has been placed under the management of a committee under the chairmanship of the Puri district collector. When Sundarananda reported on it in Çré Kñetra, it was a totally abandoned to itinerant ascetics and stray dogs.

It is said that Jagannath Das once engaged a Mayavadi sannyasi named Brahmananda in debate and defeated him. He won recognition from Prataparudra who rewarded him with a math south of the Markandeya Sarovar, which became the Boro Oriya Math. Some critics of Jagannath Das say that Prataparudra became displeased with him and took this gift back, forcing him to go elsewhere. In view of the continued influence of the Boro Oriya Math in the Sri Mandir, this account seems unlikely.

The name of the math means “seven waves.” It comes from a legend that Jagannath Das used his mystic powers to move back the ocean the distance of seven waves in order to make room for a place to building.

According to legend, Jagannath Das lived at Sat Lahari Math until he was sixty years old (1550 AD). He then called all his disciples together and gave them last instructions and spiritual directions. He gave his wooden sandals to his chief disciple, Hari Das, and appointed him his successor. He then sat in a yogic posture and went into deep meditation and then left his body. His disciples buried his remains there and built a samadhi shrine in his memory.

[ChiefCowpie]

Chaitanyas Madhva Affiliation

The Chaitanya sect some time after it's birth was affiliated as a sub-branch of the Madhva-sect which was the most influential in Bengal before the time of Chaitanya.

It is said that Chaitanya himself was brought up in the Madhva tradition. His predecessor, Advaita, as well as many of his influentilial relatives and associates had close connection with Madhvaism.

Madhavendra Puri was the initiator of the bhakti movement in Bengal before Sri Chaitanya. Iswar Puri and Madhavendra Puri, the two preceptors of Chaitanya, are claimed to have been ascetics of the Madhva-sect.

But the Madhva-sect itself never mentioned the names of Madhavendra Puri or Iswar Puri in the list of succession prepared by R.G. Bhadarkar from the original lists produced from Miraj, Belgaum and Poona.

Baladeva's list differs materially from this more authentic list.

Anandin in his commentary on Prabodhananda's Chaitanya Chandrarita claims that Chaitanya Himself and his followers were the founders of the Bengal Sampradaya and owed nothing to the Gurus of any other Sampradaya.

Madhvaism or affiliation to the Madhva-sect is never acknowledged in the important authoritative biographies of Chaitanya nor in the words of the Vrndavana Gosvamis.

Only Kavi Karnapura, in his Gauraganoddesha dipika, described Madhavendra Puri, Iswar Puri and Chaitanya as Madhva ascetics. But in the drama Chaitanya Chandrodaya, Kavi Karnapura never mentioned Madhavendra Puri as a Madhva ascetic. On the other hand, Chaitanya was a sannyasi of the advaitavadin order.

Baladeva Visyabhusan, in his Govinda bhasya on Vedanta sutra and in his Prameya-Ratnavali attribute Madhva affiliation when giving the Guru-Parampara. He also describes Chaitanya as a Madhva ascetic, reason being his guru Radha Damodara appears to have been considerably influenced by Madhva in his Vedanta-syamantaka, and the disciple Baladeva had strong leanings towards Madhvism which is clear from his erudite writings in Prameya-ratnavali.

Chaitanya formally belonged to the dasnami order of Sankara Sannyasis, though Vaishnava Bhakti movement had nothing to do with the extreme advaitavada of Shankara.

Barring these two authors, there is no mention anywhere that Madhavendra Puri or his disciple Iswar Puri were Madhva-ascetics. Perhaps Kavi Karnapura and Baladeva Vidyabhusan derived the list from the same source.

There is no evidence that Madhavendra Puri or Iswar Puri or Advaita had Madhva outlook.

The sannyas name of Madhva was Ananda Tirtha. He himself was a sannyasi of the Shankara order. But both Madhavendra and Iswar were Puris not Tirthas, while Keshava Bharati belonged to the bharati order of Shankara.

At Puri, Chaitanya was introduced to Vasudev Sarvabauma as a sannyasi of the Bharati order of Shankara. Chaitanyas sannyas was through advaita parampara. His indulgence in singing and dancing is in direct disapproval of Madhva doctrine.

All the facts jointly go against Chaitanyas alleged connection with Madvaism. S.K.De, on the origins of Chaitanyaism is of the opinion that Chaitanya never belonged to the Madhva-sect, or was never influenced by Madvaism, on the other hand, he stated that Madhavendra Puri and his disciple, Iswar Puri were Shankarite sannyasis of the same order to which Sridhara Swami belonged.

Madhavendra Puri sowed the seed of Bhakti in the soil of Bengal and Chaitanya is the ‘Noble Tree’ of that seed. Chaitanya took initation from Madhvendra Puri’s disciple Iswar Puri…

From ‘Chaitanya Movement in Eastern Bengal’

[ChiefCowpie]

And last but not least, some thoughts on this matter in purport by Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada:

Cc.Adi 9.13.15
Kesava Bharati: The Sarasvati, Bharati and Puri sampradayas belong to the Srngeri-matha in South India, and Sri Kesava Bharati, who at that time was situated in a monastery in Katwa, belonged to the Bharati-sampradaya. According to some authoritative opinions, although Kesava Bharati belonged to the Sankara-sampradaya, he had formerly been initiated by a Vaisnava. He is said to have been a Vaisnava on account of having been initiated by Madhavendra Puri, for some say that he took sannyasa from Madhavendra Puri. The temple and Deity worship started by Kesava Bharati are still existing in the village known as Khatundi, which is under the postal jurisdiction of Kandara in the district of Burdwan. According to the managers of that matha, the priests are descendants of Kesava Bharati, and some say that the worshipers of the Deity are descendants of the sons of Kesava Bharati. In his householder life he had two sons, Nisapati and Usapati, and a brahmana of the name Sri Nakadicandra Vidyaratna, who was a member of the family of Nisapati, was the priest in charge at the time that Sri Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati visited this temple. According to some, the priests of the temple belong to the family of Kesava Bharati's brother. Still another opinion is that they descend from Madhava Bharati, who was another disciple of Kesava Bharati's. Madhava Bharati's disciple Balabhadra, who also later became a sannyasi of the Bharati-sampradaya, had two sons in his family life, named Madana and Gopala. Madana, whose family's surname was Bharati, lived in the village of Auriya, and Gopala, whose family's surname was Brahmacari, lived in the village of Denduda. There are still many living descendants of both families.
In the Gaura-ganoddesa-dipika (52), it is said:

mathurayam yajna-sutram pura krsnaya yo munih
dadau sandipanih so 'bhud adya kesava-bharati

"Sandipani Muni, who formerly offered the sacred thread to Krsna and Balarama, later became Kesava Bharati." It is he who offered sannyasa to Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. There is another statement about Kesava Bharati from the Gaura-ganoddesa-dipika (117): iti kecit prabhasante 'krurah kesava-bharati. "According to some authoritative opinions, Kesava Bharati is an incarnation of Akrura." Kesava Bharati offered the sannyasa order to Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu in the year 1432 sakabda (A.D. 1510) in Katwa. This is stated in the Vaisnava-manjusa, Part Two.


Cc.Adi 12.14-17

When Acyutananda heard from his father that Kesava Bharati was the spiritual master of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu, he was very unhappy.

He told his father, "Your instruction that Kesava Bharati is the spiritual master of Caitanya Mahaprabhu will spoil the entire country.

"Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu is the spiritual master of the fourteen worlds, but You say that someone else is His spiritual master. This is not supported by any revealed scripture."

When Advaita Acarya heard this statement from His five-year-old son Acyutananda, He felt great satisfaction because of his conclusive judgment.

[BlackBillBlake]

Very interesting Chief.


Especially the fact that Mahaprabhu is puportedly linked to both Shankara and Madhva.

For those to whom these names mean nothing: Shankara'a advaita philosophy is pure monism - the soul or atman is said to be one with Brahman or the absolute. Any notion of individual existence is thought of as illusion. Liberation for the monist means merging the (illusory) individual existence in the absolute.

Madhva on the other hand is a dualist. He taught that God and the Atman are eternally separate. Liberation for Madhva consists in an eternal existence in the presence of God. This is to be attained by realization of the atman as the eternal servitior of God. Madhva is one of the few Indian philosophers (so far as I am aware) who believes in eternal damnation.

Just a brief summary.

[BlackBillBlake]

I should add that Sri Chaitanya's own position is 'qualified non-dualism'. The atman is said to be simultaneously one with and separate from Brahman. It is believed that the soul is qualitively one with God, but quantitavely different. It is a small spark of the all-encompassing original fire.


Vaishnavas don't generally want to merge in God, but to retain a separate existence in a relationship of love and service.

[ChiefCowpie]

I should add that Sri Chaitanya's own position is 'qualified non-dualism'. The atman is said to be simultaneously one with and separate from Brahman. It is believed that the soul is qualitively one with God, but quantitavely different. It is a small spark of the all-encompassing original fire.


Vaishnavas don't generally want to merge in God, but to retain a separate existence in a relationship of love and service.
Bhakti is not only a vaisnava phenomenon. Simply from a point of view of the poetry of romantic intoxiction with one's Ishta, for simply aesthetic reasons, one would not want to become one's Love... one does not desire to becomes one's lover but to swim in the intoxication of that love. As Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu manifested the dual love fest of Radha and Krishna, then in a mystical sense as the ati-bati Jaganatha dasa taught, that is the nature of all souls to manifest that love as Mahaprabhu so did.

As per what is Chaitanya's position, one can only say for sure that He sure loved to chant. I for one feel his views were much more liberal than what we have recieved from the Gaudiyas as other traditions show Mahaprabhu in a different light.

[ChiefCowpie]

Very interesting Chief.


Especially the fact that Mahaprabhu is puportedly linked to both Shankara and Madhva.Or purportedly he is not linked with Madhva as the Madhva tradition holds no record of either Madhvendra Puri or Ishvara Puri appearing in their line.

[ChiefCowpie]

A.K. Majumdar writes in 'Chaitanya His Life and Doctrine'

Chapter XXII Sri Chaitanya's Sampradaya page 262

Chaitanyas Sannyasa is also not free from controversy. According to Murari (II, xviii. 2; III. ii. 7) and the CBh. (II xxvi) he told Keshava Bharati of a mantra which he had recieved in a dream, and Keshava Bharati initiated him with that mantra. (this contradicts Kavi-Karnapura). This was most unusual, and if Chaitanya had not intervened, Keshava Bharati would have initiated hin with a maha-vakya with it's monistic implications to which Chaitanya had the greatest possible objection. Then according to CBh., Keshava Bharati thought that though a Bharati's disciple should be called a Bharati, in this case it would not be proper, hence he gave him the name Sri Krishna Chaitanya.

Now, according to the organization set up by Samkara mentioned above, the brahmacarins under Sarada-math were to be known as Svarupa, under Govardhana-math as Prakasa, under Jyotir-math as Ananda, and as under Srmgeri-math as Chaitanya. As the Srmgeri-math was the center for Sarasvati, Bharati and the Puri orders, it is most likely that Keshava Bharati conferred on his extraordinary disciple the title of Chaitanya to indicate that the latter was not a full fledged Sannyasin. That this happened in the case of Chaitanya's friend Svarup Damodar is admitted in CC (II.x.106). The possibility, therefore, has to be borne in mind that, Chaitanya probably never adopted what is known formally as Sannyasa.

A.K. Majumdar was a student of the infamous Dr. S.K. De who intitated him into the study of Gaudiya Vaishnavism.

[ChiefCowpie]

There is also much evidence that Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu preferred commentary on the Bhagavata by an Advaitin, Sridhar Swami, over all others including Madhva.

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:KH0KGJVTH4EJ:www.granthamandira.org/download.php%3Fimage_id%3D83+sridhar+swami+madhva&hl=en&start=13

Introduction



I started this edition of the Gita in order to have the four related commentaries of Sridhar (Subodhiné), Madhusudan Saraswati (Güòhärtha-dépikä), Vishwanath (Särärtha-varñiëé) and Baladeva (Gétä-bhüñaëam) in one place. Sadhale’s edition has eleven full commentaries, but does not include any of these, which appear to form a kind of family with direct relationships between them.


Sridhar Swami’s commentary was written in Orissa in the early 15th century. Madhusudana Saraswati was a contemporary of Jiva Goswami living in Benares in the latter half of the 16th century. Vishwanath Chakravarti lived in the latter part of the 17th century and Baladeva Vidyabhushan was his junior contemporary and student. The last two scholars belonged to the Chaitanya Vaishnava school, though they lived more than a century after the departure of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu himself. As such their commentaries are held in particularly great esteem by Gaudiya Vaishnavas and have been published many times by followers of that school.


Sridhar Swami, though an Advaitavadin, was held in great esteem by Chaitanya, especially for his commentary on the Bhagavata Purana. This respect for Sridhar arises out of his acknowledgement of the importance of bhakti and his sentimental feeling for Vishnu and his incarnations. His commentary, as its name indicates, is a simple gloss of the original text rather than a philosophical discourse based on the Gita, as is the case with Madhusudan.


Madhusudan Saraswati, a Bengali, lived in the post-Chaitanya period dominated by the Vaishnava bhakti movements. He also was an Advaita-vadin, renowned for numerous philosophical works, most notably Advaita-siddhi and Bhakti-rasäyana. Though in his introduction he gives prominence to Shankaracharya, it is clear that for his fundamental reading of the text, he owes as much, if not more, to Sridhar. He too shows a certain affection for Krishna and the bhakti tradition, quoting several times from the Bhägavata-puräëa, for instance, though his intellectual support for the Advaita doctrines is beyond any doubt. His most well-known verse comes at the conclusion of his commentary:


vaàçé-vibhüñita-karän nava-néradäbhät

pétämbaräd aruëa-bimba-phalädharoñöhät |

pürëendu-sundara-mukhäd aravinda-näbhät

kåñëät paraà kim api tattvam ahaà na jäne ||


It is clear that Vishwanath and Baladeva made use of these two commentaries above any other along with that of Ramanuja. However, Madhvacharya, the founder of the Dvaita school of Vedanta, as well as Jayatirtha, his disciple, who also commented on the Gita do not appear to have left any traces on either Gaudiya commentary. This is remarkable in view of the ostensible connection to the Madhva line latterly claimed by the Gaudiya school.


Vishwanath is generally concise and restricts his comments to elements that specifically distinguish the Gaudiya position, stressing the Bhagavatam as a source text. As usual, Vishwanath is occasionally highly original, though his inspiration comes from Rupa Goswami and Jiva Goswami, the theologians who established Gaudiya doctrine. Baladeva similarly stresses the Gaudiya understanding of theology, but gives a more detailed explanation of the verses, especially drawing on Vedanta to support his position.


I have also included a few excerpts from other Gaudiya sources, particularly Jiva Goswami’s discussion of the concluding verses of the 18th chapter found in the Kåñëa-sandarbha and Sarva-saàvädiné. It is my intention to compile an index of quoted verses as well as an index of Gita verses as found in Gaudiya texts, i.e., Caitanya-caritämåta, the six Sandarbhas, etc.


By placing these commentaries in one place, facility is given to future scholars who wish to make an in-depth comparison of them.

Bibliography



(Books used in making this edition.)


With Güòhärtha-dépikä Sanskrit commentary of Madhusüdana Sarasvaté and Hindi commentary of Swämé Sanätanadeva. Notes and introduction by Swämé Yogéndränanda Çästré. Third edition. Varanasi: Chaukhambha Sanskrit Sansthan, 1996.


With Çaìkara’s Bhäñya. (ed.) Harikåñëadäsa Goyanda (16th edition). Gorakhpur : Gita Press, 1994.


With Çaìkara’s Bhäñya, the Subodhiné of Çrédhara Svämé, and Särärtha-varñiëé of Viçvanätha Cakravarté. (ed.) Pürëa Candra Viçväsa. Calcutta, 1980.


With Särärtha-varñiëé of Viçvanätha Cakravarté and Gétä-bhüñaëa of Baladeva Vidyäbhüñaëa. (ed.) Kåñëadäsa. Kusumasarovara: 1956.


Çaìkara-bhäñyädy-ekädaça-öékopetä. (ed.) Shastri Gajanana Shambhu Sadhale. Delhi: Parimal Publications (reprint), 2000.

[ChiefCowpie]

And too there is Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu's embracing of the Brahma Samhita which besides being of unknown origins and unknownst to the Sri Vaisnavas as it was alledgedly found by Mahaprabhu in a Sri Vaisnava temple, its character is one of tantra.

According to Edward Dimock:

QUOTE
"It is clear the fifth book, at least, of the Brahma-samhitaa, is a Vaisnava-sahajiya text. For example: "The lotus of a thousand petals is named Gokula, the dwelling-place of the Lord." The "lotus of a thousand petals" is Taantric and Sahajiyaa terminology for the seat of bliss, which in microcosmic physiology is the brain. That it is also called Gokul (a dwelling place of Krsna) is held by later Bengali Vaisnava-sahajiyaas. Although the rest of the chapter is free from references that may called specifically Vaisnava, it is full of references which are Taantric. For example, verses 3-10 treat the Taantric yantra, and speak of Siva as lingam and Sakti, Siva's female counterpart or consort, as yoni. This concept of the metaphysical character of sexual union is basic to the sahajiyaas, and all sects oriented toward the "left-hand" Taantra".

[ChiefCowpie]

The importance to me of these posts is that some sects have tried to claim Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu as their property whilst it should be obvious to those who explore His being with a liberal mindset that He, as does Jesus, White Buffalo Calf Woman, Buddha and All Saints and Avataras, does not come for one set of people but comes for everyone to fully manifest their love and evolution.

[ChiefCowpie]

mahAbhaktagana-saha tAhA gosthi kaila/
brahmasamhitAdhyaya puthi tAhA pAila//

In the august assembly of mahabhaktas there, the lord aquired a manuscript of a chapter from Brahma samhita.

puthi pAiyA prabhura haila Ananda apAra/
kampAzru-sveda-stambha-pulaka vikAra//

Procuring that manuscript our lord felt unlimited bliss and was intensly overwhelmed with transformations of ecstacy; he trembled, shed profuse tears, perspired, and was thrilled with horripilation.

CC Madhya 9

[ChiefCowpie]

S.K. De writes in 'Vaishnava Faith and Movement''

"It appears probable, on the other hand, that Madhavendra Puri and his disciple Isvara Puri were Samkarite Samnyasins of the same type as Sridhara Svamin, who in his great commentary on the Srimad Bhagavata attempted to combine the Advaita teachings of Samkara with the emotionalism of the Bhagavatas."

" It would seem that about the time of Sridhara himself there must have grown a tendency of tempering the severe monistic idealism of Advaita Vedanta with the devotional worship of a personal God. Sridhara appears to give a definite expression to this tendency in his well known commentaries on the Vishnu Purana, the Bhagavad Gita and the Srimad Bhagavatam, in which he acknowledges Samkaras teachings as authoritative., but considers Bhakti as the Best means of 'Advaita Mukti'.
footnote; 'The phrase sva-sampradaya at the beginning of his commentary need not be interpreted to mean Vishnusvamin Sampradaya. Jiva Gosvamin (tat-samdarbha, d. berhampore, p.68) dogmatically asserts that Sridhara, whose opinion is accepted as authoritative in the Bengal school, was a true Vaishnava who only tempered his Vaishnavism with Advaita doctrines in such a way as to make it acceptable to the Advaita schools. But there is no evidence to support this statement. On the contrary, at the commencement of his commentary on the Bhagavad Gita, Sridhara distinctly acknowledges the views of the Bhasyakara (i.e. Samkara), and in many places refrains from further explanation by simply referring the reader to Samkara's interpretation. Although Bhakti is his main theme, the Advaita trend of his writings is too obvious to be mistaken.
chapter 1, Pre-Chaitanya Vaishnavism in Bengal p. 17 1st paragraph;

[BlackBillBlake]

The importance to me of these posts is that some sects have tried to claim Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu as their property whilst it should be obvious to those who explore His being with a liberal mindset that He, as does Jesus, White Buffalo Calf Woman, Buddha and All Saints and Avataras, does not come for one set of people but comes for everyone to fully manifest their love and evolution.
That's the way it is with sects - they like to claim they have the 'exclusive rights'.

I'm sorry Chief if my previous post gave the wrong impression. I wasn't trying to suggest that bhakti is limited to vaishnavas.
My intention was only to give a very brief and probably flawed quick guide to the different philosophers and their schoools mentioned in your posts, because many may have no idea at all about these matters.

[ChiefCowpie]

I should add that Sri Chaitanya's own position is 'qualified non-dualism'. The atman is said to be simultaneously one with and separate from Brahman. It is believed that the soul is qualitively one with God, but quantitavely different. It is a small spark of the all-encompassing original fire.


Vaishnavas don't generally want to merge in God, but to retain a separate existence in a relationship of love and service.
Different vaisnavas have different takes on this. Radha Krishna lila is among the highest manifestation of love exchange seen and so the vaisnava doesn't want to merge into the All but to be an a part of the lila. So for this reason of poetic romantic rapture do vaisnavas not want to merge due to their devotion to their Ishta and not so much as a philosophical doctrine which is very much a Madhva idea not held by all vaisnavas and so has emerged this "solid jiva energy unit of self" which is if you look at it, not very acintya bheda bheda tattva. Its more just bheda.

You and I both know from the life of Ramakrishna Paramahamsa, that bhakti is very much part of advaitic thought but there is not the rigid idea of self or jiva spark that has come to qualify certain Gaudiya vaisnava camps of Madhva lineage.

Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu taught the idea of "acintya bheda bheda tattva"or the nature of self is simultaneously one with and different from God. The hard core personalists have emphasized "the different" and have cropped the total meaning of the verse. "One with" is not understood by the fundamental personalists and so they try to make apology for Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu's accepting initiation into the Sankara school as some aspect of His compassion to deliver Sankirtana or His preference for known advaitin, Sridhara Swami's Bhagavata Purana commentary as somehow Sridhara Swami was just a faking advaitin and he was secretly a dvaitin.

So what does Mahaprabhu's "qualified nondualism" mean? Imho, it takes two to dance, to love. In the separation of the oneness, there comes this expansion to create, to love, to have pastimes and experience the totality of the All in all its Love.

Advaitic thought does not deny the experience of love. It is its total celebration.

[BlackBillBlake]

Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu taught the idea of "acintya bheda bheda tattva"or the nature of self is simultaneously one with and different from God. The hard core personalists have emphasized "the different" and have cropped the total meaning of the verse. "One with" is not understood by the fundamental personalists and so they try to make apology for Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu's accepting initiation into the Sankara school as some aspect of His compassion to deliver Sankirtana or His preference for known advaitin, Sridhara Swami's Bhagavata Purana commentary as somehow Sridhara Swami was just a faking advaitin and he was secretly a dvaitin.


I'm glad to see I'm not alone in having noticed this - I mean the tendendy towards a strict dualism present in many Vaishnavas despite Sri Chaitanya's "acintya bheda bheda tattva"- (inc. Srila Prabhupada, I would say.)

[ChiefCowpie]

woops, its actually "acintya bheda abheda tattva"

bheda is the separate or distinct

abheda is the nonseparate or indistinct

[ChiefCowpie]

http://www.gaudiyadiscussions.com/uploads/post-348-1107177829.jpg




I saw witchcraft tonight in Vraj.
A wandering gopi came face to face with Shyam.
Sakhi, she is babbling now,
can no longer say "milk."
Come get Shyam, Shyam,
a pot full of Shyam!
In the overgrown lanes of Vrindavan
Shyam Manohar fixed His eye on this girl,
then departed.
Meera's Lord is hot, lovely and dark-
tonight she saw witchcraft in Vraj.

~Meerabai





http://www.gaudiyadiscussions.com/uploads/post-348-1107177881_thumb.jpg (http://www.gaudiyadiscussions.com/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=1254)

[ChiefCowpie]

http://www.gaudiyadiscussions.com/uploads/post-348-1107382098.jpg




Sakhi, I went to the market and bought Shyam.
You claim at night, I claim by light of day.
Actually I was beating a drum while I bought him.
You say I paid too much; I say too little.
Actually, I put him on a scale before I bought him.
What I paid was my social body, my town body, my family body,
and all my inherited jewels.
Mirabai says: Shyam is my husband now.
Be with me when I lie down;
you promised me this in a former life.

~Meerabai




http://www.gaudiyadiscussions.com/uploads/post-348-1107382215.jpg

[ChiefCowpie]

http://www.gaudiyadiscussions.com/uploads/post-348-1107474027.jpg



O my friends,
What can you tell me of Love,
Whose pathways are filled with strangeness?
When you offer the Great One your love,
At the first step your body is crushed.
Next be ready to offer your head as his seat.
Be ready to orbit his lamp like a moth giving in to the flame,
To be like the deer as she runs toward the hunter's call,
Like the bird that swallows hot coals for love of the moon,
Like the fish that, kept from the sea, happily dies.
Like a bee trapped for life in the closing of the sweet flower.
Mira has offered herself to her Lord.
She says, the single Lotus will swallow you whole.

~Meerabai

[ChiefCowpie]

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 09:13:08 +0100 (BST)
From: Hamsapriye
Subject: Meera and Radha: Twin Souls of Krishna - I

Meera Bai:
----------

Devotion for Lord Krishna is equated with a huge range
of emotions and states of mind - from eroticism and
sensuality to renunciation and surrender. Complete
immersion of one's soul in Krishna's soul, is regarded
as the path to unadulterated devotion for Krishna.
Radha and Mirabai are seen as the twin zeniths of
devotion for Lord Krishna. Opposites in some sense and
yet so much one in their love for the lord, the
devotion of Mirabai and Radha for Krishna show the
oneness of eroticism and renunciation, and finally,
the convergence of both into the omnipresent soul of
Krishna in the form of single-minded love and
devotion.

Meera sings:
"Guide this little boat over the waters,
what can I give you for fare?
Our mutable world holds nothing but grief,
bear me away from it.
Eight bonds of karma
have gripped me,
the whole of creation
swirls through eight million wombs,
through eight million birth-forms we flicker.
Mira cries. Dark One
take this little boat to the far shore,
put an end to coming and going"

Meerabai was a born poetess. Through her numerous
poems, marked with simplicity and lack of pretension,
she has beautifully expressed her intensity and depth
of love for Krishna. Meerabai's bhajans (songs
dedicated to the lord), composed centuries ago still
capture the thoughts and emotions of devotees today.
These songs are highly regarded for the mystic quality
as well as their rich inner meanings. Meerabai offered
her soul to the lord, singing and dancing, in a
trance, to please her beloved and her lord, Krishna.
And through these songs and her devotion she has left
behind a legacy of thoughts and ways of making one's
soul reach Lord Krishna.

Portraying herself as a lover of Krishna, longing for
him, Mirabai's poetry puts love for Krishna above love
for friends and family. She perceived Krishna to be
her husband, lover, lord and master. Even though those
around her try to stop her from her quest for Krishna,
she remains unstoppable in her pursuit of Krishna,
whatever the consequences.

Making use of erotic imagery as one of the tools to
portray her love for Krishna, she is able to describe
her pining for him, her quest for union with him. Even
though her symbolism is erotic, her love is divine and
pure - selfless, all-absorbing, immaculate, insatiable
and endless. The expression of Mira's love is very
intimate in nature.

It is through love that she communes with God. "Mira's
Lord is none other than Giridhara." (Giridhara being
Krishna) - these are usually the ending words of
Meera's poems which are predominantly an expression of
her oneness with Krishna. Mira's love for Krishna is
all-encompassing. The lord of her heart and soul, she
used to weep for him and spend sleepless nights for a
sight of him. Mirabai says she had "sold" herself -
surrendered herself - completely to him. She says "I
am colored with the color of dusk", dusk implying the
color of Krishna. As if her love for Krishna permeated
every pore of her body, just like dye permeates a
garment. This aspect of union through surrender is
predominant in Mira's poetry.

For Mirabai, her freedom lay in her union with her
lord. She sings:

"Love in which there is laughter and sobbing,
Moaning, throbbing and clasping in tight embrace,
That alone is liberation for me,
I care for no other."

This great saint of Hinduism and one the greatest
devotees of Krishna, Mirabai was born into the royal
family of Rana Ratan Singh of Merta in Rajasthan in
1498 A.D. As a three-year old child she grew extremely
fond of a statue of Lord Krishna. So much so that her
mother had once jokingly remarked that Krishna would
one day be the girl's (Mirabai's) groom. This remark
made an indelible mark on the impressionable mind of
the young child.

She nurtured the notion of Krishna being her sole
lord, her lover, friend and husband as she matured
into a woman. She agreed to her marriage to Rana
Kumbha of Mewar in Rajasthan, against her heart's
wishes, to honor her grandfather's promise to Rana
Kumbha. In spite of her marriage, her heart still
belonged to Lord Krishna and she spent a great deal of
time in the Krishna temple at her husband's palace,
albeit after fulfilling her household duties.
Conspiracies were unfortunately hatched against her by
several around her, to defame her, and eventually to
kill her, but all of those could not deter her from
her chosen path of devotion. Her husband however is
seen to have been a sympathizer of Mirabai, till her
death in 1546 A.D. According to other versions,
though, it is believed that her husband died within
ten years of their marriage.

Such great was her devotion that it is believed that
she merged with the lord in his temple at Dwarka in
Gujarat. According to one version, she is believed to
have entered the sanctum of the temple in a state of
singing ecstacy. The sanctum doors are believed to
have closed on their own and when later opened, the
sari (garment) of Mirabai was seen enwrapped around
the idol of lord Krishna.

Through her devotion-filled yet tumultuous life she
gained a number of enemies, owing to her rising fame
and her undeterred and unconventional devotion to Lord
Krishna. But more than she gained enemies, she gained
followers and admirers. Not only the common people,
but also the Mughal emperor Akbar and his famous court
musician, Tansen, are believed to have visited her in
disguise and are said to have touched her feet, in awe
of her devotion for Lord Krishna.

What set apart Meera from the other devotees of
Krishna was that she looked upon Krishna as her
husband, rather than only as a master. She believed
that in her previous life she was one of the several
gopis in Vrindavan, in love with Krishna (Vrindavan
was the place where Krishna spent most of his
childhood. Gopis were the several female companions of
Krishna). Mira used to consider herself an incarnation
of one of the gopis mentioned in the Bhagavata Purana,
called Lalita, a very close female companion of Radha,
who was the greatest devotee and a beloved of Lord
Krishna.

Much like the gopis, as mentioned in tales of Krishna,
Mirabai looked upon Krishna as her lover, seeking
physical union with him. Her writings were at the same
time, spiritual and erotic. Mira's songs portray a
personal universe where the only existence was that of
Krishna - her sole object of desire.

Through her love songs addressed to her beloved,
Krishna, Meera paints on a literary canvas, the
longing of the individual soul (atman) to merge with
the universal soul (paramatman). These songs talk
about the beauty of the object of her love and her
passion and longing for union with him, the madness of
her love, and the pain of separation from him. They
oscillated between feelings of sensual bodily love for
the lord to a state of spiritual love, but at all
times, openly describing her heart's longings. Within
the songs, she shifted between feeling anguish at
being separated from her lover to feeling jealousy and
suspicion about her lover. At other times she would be
ecstatic with visions of being close to him. At all
moments, she would imagine herself to be a part of the
existence of Lord Krishna, as she would imagine him to
be a part of her existence.

Even when, at times, her poetry describes scenes of
Krishna's childhood pranks, as described in various
Hindu texts, she does not fail to superimpose her own
character as one of the lovelorn Gopis in the scenes.
One of these songs depicts the story of the young
Krishna stealing the clothes of the gopis as they
bathed in the river Yamuna. Mirabai imagines herself
as one of the gopis and sings about her true spiritual
self being revealed to the lord as she stood naked in
front of Krishna.

Mirabai's state of mind is typically called madhurya
by the Vaishnavas, followers of a prominent school of
Hinduism. In such a state, love for God acquires the
flavor of a relationship that is found in the union of
the lover with the beloved.

A Mira poem is traditionally called a Pada, a term
used by the 14th century preachers for a small
spiritual song. This is usually composed in simple
rhythms and carries a refrain within itself. Her
collection of songs is called the Padavali. Primarily
devotional in nature, Mirabai uses sprinklings of
eroticism in her songs. The typicality of Indian love
poetry of those days was used by Mirabai but as an
instrument to express her deepest emotions felt for
her lord. Her typical medium of singing was
Vraja-bhasha, a dialect of Hindi spoken in and around
Vrindavan (the childhood home of Krishna), sometimes
mixed with Rajasthani.

As compared to the literature of the then-existing
Hindu schools of devotion (bhakti), which typically
saw devotees as servants of the lord, Meera Bai's
poetic preoccupation with worship and love as it
exists between lovers, sets apart her devotional
philosophy. This love-based philosophy of Meera Bai
took time to catch on but as she grew popular, her
songs and philosophy caught the imagination of the
common-folk as a means of reaching out to their
popular deity, Lord Krishna. Disregarding her royal
lineage, Meera Bai traveled across vast distances of
North India, spreading her gospel of love for Krishna
being the only weapon that could conquer the transient
nature of life. Through her tender and simple odes and
hymns, which were rich, sweet, inspiring, and yet void
of any rhetoric or esoteric language, she brought to
the masses the genuine outpourings of a heart
dedicated completely to the lord.

When seen in the context of the conservative and
male-dominated society with a unidimensional
perception of life and religion, Mirabai can be seen
as a perfect example of a woman - a symbol of courage
and defiance - who was far ahead of her times in
seeking freedom not only from social barriers but also
the ultimate freedom from the bondage of human
existence. The insane nature of Meera's love for Lord Krishna and
the sheer frenzy of her passion saw her face the
intense and brutal opposition of her ways by society
and family, with calmness and patience. Her intense
experiences of love for Krishna can only be explained
as those had by a divine lover, and not by a docile
lover. The singular and all-encompassing truth of her
life was her love for the lord and that is what
allowed her to face all the turmoil and opposition
that came along with the conviction that she had
towards her love. In her state of frenzied pursuit of
Krishna, she was totally oblivious of the world of
political intrigue and royal life she was surrounded
by.

[BlackBillBlake]

Tired of chicken soup for the soul?


Try Dal sabzi for the Atman

http://www.dalsabzi.com/

The items about Ma Indira Devi are particularly interesting. She was a great devotee of Mirabai, and received many songs from Her whilst in states of samhadi.

[ChiefCowpie]

Tired of chicken soup for the soul?


Try Dal sabzi for the Atman
ok, I'll try it out.

http://www.abi01.de/kqx/tiger1.jpg

[BlackBillBlake]

Beautiful picture Chief.


For a full account of Ma Indira see "Pilgrims of the Stars" by Her and Sri Dilip Kumar Roy, co-founders of Hari Krishna Mandir. Here is just one of the Songs Ma Indira received in trance from Mirabai:

From which shores, taveller, dost thou hail,
For which art thou bound still?
Hast thou forgotten in thy blind voyage
And missed what thou shoudst will?

This world is but a wayside inn,
Thy true home waits thee afar:
Be not path-lost in thy maze of karma,
O pilgrim of the star!

Why cull the painted shells, pale baubles,
To regret the wasted pains?
Plunge, dive in the deep, if thou wouldst win
The pearl that knows no stains.

No seed is sown in the soil of prayer
But flowers in God's own bloom.
Though steep is the path and unglimpsed the goal,
Walk in faith's light in the gloom.

[space_cowboy]

Why are they called Hare Krishna's when they have shaved heads? Shouldn't they be called Barely Hare Krishna's?

Just a thought.

I tried reading through some of these posts, but my eyes glazed over and I felt like screaming "BUT WHY DO THEY HAVE TO CALL IT GAWD-HEAD?"

Just a thought.

Is Krishna a polytheistic religion? How many God's do you feel are needed in order to get it right?

Just a thought.

Is Krishna a dude? And if he is why the skirt and makeup?

Is there some esoteric message there?

Just a thought.

[BlackBillBlake]

Is there some esoteric message there?

Just a thought.
That is the question.

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

I thought I'd share...I haven't been around for awhile :)

Also, happy birthday to the late George Harrison! :)

**I found this song on Mrs. L's piano a week or two ago and we're not singing it...but I wrote down the words...'cause I liked 'em**

A Native American Prayer (Traditional)

Let me walk in beauty
Make my eyes ever behold the red and purple sunset
Make my hands resspect the things that you have made
Make my ears sharp to hear your voice

O Great Spirit whose voice I hear in the winds and whose breath gives life to all the world
Hear me! I am small and week
I need your strength and wisdom

Make me wise so I may understand the things you've taught
The things you've taught my people

O Great Wisdom, I seek strength
I seek strength not to be greater than my brother
But to fight my greatest enemy, myself

Make me always ready to come to you with clean hands and straight eyes
So when life fades as the sunset
My spirit may come without shame

O Great Spirit whose voice I hear in the winds and whose breath gives life to all the world
Hear me! I am small and week
I need your strength and wisdom
I need your strength and wisdom


**Erin and I went to Smithville last week and I bought a bookmark at the angel store and this is what it says**

Take Time- Unknown

Take time to think;
it is the source of power
Take time to read,
it is the fountain of wisdom
Take time to play,
it is the secret of staying young
Take time to be quiet;
it is the opertunity to seek God
Take time to be aware;
it is the opertunity to help others
Take time to love and be loved,
it is God's greatest gift
Take time to laugh,
it is the music of the soul
Take time to be friendly;
it is the road to happiness
Take time to dream;
it is what the future is made of
Take time to pray;
it is the greatest power on earth.

[BlackBillBlake]

``THE secret of action'', so we might summarise the message of the Gita, the word of its divine Teacher, ``is one with the secret of all life and existence. Existence is not merely a machinery of Nature, a wheel of law in which the soul is entangled for a moment or for ages; it is a constant manifestation of the Spirit. Life is not for the sake of life alone, but for God, and the living soul of man is an eternal portion of the Godhead. Action is for self-finding, for self-fulfilment, for self-realisation and not only for its own external and apparent fruits of the moment or the future. There is an inner law and meaning of all things dependent on the supreme as well as the manifested nature of the self; the true truth of works lies there and can be represented only incidentally, imperfectly and disguised by ignorance in the outer appearances of the mind and its action. The supreme, the faultless largest law of action is therefore to find out the truth of your own highest and inmost existence and live in it and not to follow any outer standard and Dharma. All life and action must be till then an imperfection, a difficulty, a struggle and a problem. It is only by discovering your true self and living according to its true truth, its real reality that the problem can be finally solved, the difficulty and struggle overpassed and your doings perfected in the security of the discovered self and spirit turn into a divinely authentic action. Know then your self; know your true self to be God and one with the self of all others; know your soul to be a portion of God. Live in what you know; live in the self, live in your supreme spiritual nature, be united with God and Godlike. Offer, first, all your actions as a sacrifice to the Highest and the One in you and to the Highest and the One in the world; deliver last all you are and do into his hands for the supreme and universal spirit to do through you his own will and works in the world. This is the solution that I present to you and in the end you will find that there is no other.''

Sri Aurobindo - "Essays on the Gita".

[Chiana20]

OMG.. I grew up in this since I was 4, my grandmother use to go to the tempal and be there like almost everyday. I learned alot from this hindu woman who I still remember and few friends who I use to play with. I love the atmosphere of that place. Makes you feel alive and free.

[Zion]

I find Krishna Buddha and Jesus to all be the same. just differnt styles of peace: krishna intelgence, Buddha detatchment, and jesus love.

[Bhaskar]

I think it is more accurate to say krishna is karma yoga, buddha is gnyana yoga and jesus is bhakti yoga.

[BlackBillBlake]

I think it is more accurate to say krishna is karma yoga, buddha is gnyana yoga and jesus is bhakti yoga.
Maybe. But actually, all three have all these aspects. For example, devotion to Krishna is a very developed form of hindu practice, the teachings of many Christian saints is very similar to karma yoga, and in Japan, there is the Pure Land school of Buddhism, who believe that all that is neccessary is devotion to Amithaba Buddha, and repitition of His name ('Namu Amida Bhutsu').
All these avatars are really one. They are all forms of the One Reality that underlies everything.

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

Maybe. But actually, all three have all these aspects. For example, devotion to Krishna is a very developed form of hindu practice, the teachings of many Christian saints is very similar to karma yoga, and in Japan, there is the Pure Land school of Buddhism, who believe that all that is neccessary is devotion to Amithaba Buddha, and repitition of His name ('Namu Amida Bhutsu').
All these avatars are really one. They are all forms of the One Reality that underlies everything.
I agree with you...I think that all are great avatars who were sent to different times and places to teach the Universal Truth in a way that would be apropriate for the peoples of those times and places... the messages are the same but what makes each so special is their stories and they different ways they delivered the message. :)

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

lol...did anyone know that this thread is number 14 on the Hipforums Top 20 reply threads? That's awesome! :)

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

I really do not want to see this thread vanish....but I must ask you all...should we finally let it slip off this page in to oblivion? If so...than I won't post in it anymore...no sense in beating a dead horse (or however the saying goes...lol)... but for now...I will continue to share what I have... :)

Prabhujee Dayaa Karo
Maname Aana Bao

Tuma Bina Laage Soonaa
Khaali Ghatame Prema Bharo

Tantra Mantra Poojaa Nahi Jaanu
Mai To Kevala Tumako Hi Maanu

Sare Jaga Me Dhundaa Tumako
Aba To Aakara Baahan Dharo

Oh Master, show some compassion on me
Please come and dwell in my heart

Because without you, it is painfully lonely
Fill this empty pot with the nectar of love

I do not know any Tantram Mantra, or ritualistic worship
I know and believe only in you!

I have been searching for you all over the world
Please come and hold my hand now

[BlackBillBlake]

I really do not want to see this thread vanish....but I must ask you all...should we finally let it slip off this page in to oblivion? If so...than I won't post in it anymore...no sense in beating a dead horse (or however the saying goes...lol)... but for now...I will continue to share what I have... :)

Perhaps this thread has become too long for many people to read - and without any discussion going on maybe its become a bit pointless. Maybe it would be better to let it go........let's just wait and see.

[Bhaskar]

Never! This thread is satsang. Why allow a discussion of bhagawan's glories to come to end? As the gopikas put it in their beautiful gopika geet in bhagavatam, tava kathamritam tapta jeevanam... the nectar of your stories gives life to those who are tortured (by this world)...

[Jedi]

Jai Sri Krishna!!!!!

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

lol...looks like we're still staying then? :)

Oui, mon cher Jedi... Jai Sri Krishna indeed! :)

[Amanda's Shadow]

i love krishna- but there ARE some rules. no meat for instance! no intoxication. no killing and i read somewhere that sex-for-pleasure was bad according to it.

also it is a lot happier than you are making it saound.

i tried it but it wasnt for me (the meat thing) so im lloking at other religions that promot love and not bigotry and jihads

[Amanda's Shadow]

if i am wrong, feel free to tell me bc i am not sure :)

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

i love krishna- but there ARE some rules. no meat for instance! no intoxication. no killing and i read somewhere that sex-for-pleasure was bad according to it.

also it is a lot happier than you are making it saound.

i tried it but it wasnt for me (the meat thing) so im lloking at other religions that promot love and not bigotry and jihads

Well, you don't have to be a member of ISKCON, which by the no meat, no intoxication, ect...I assume you are refering to (correct me if I'm wrong), to love Krishna...all you need to do is love him...I have never been a member of ISKCON but I still love Krishna (and I am a born and raised Roman Catholic)...but I do not disuade you from looking at other religions...I actually find that the true meaning of all the religions is love (not the dogma but the true stuff...)...its all very interesting...

Sorry for babbling.... :&

*peace and love*
Nicole

[Amanda's Shadow]

thanks. i think this thread died :)

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

thanks. i think this thread died :)
I hope it didn't.....but if that ends up as its fate...then its as George Harrison said, "all things must pass away"

[BlackBillBlake]

It's up to Krishna - if He wants this to go on, it will http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif

http://img66.exs.cx/img66/7524/tutteleformedikrishna5eq.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us/)

[BlackBillBlake]

i love krishna- but there ARE some rules. no meat for instance! no intoxication. no killing and i read somewhere that sex-for-pleasure was bad according to it.

also it is a lot happier than you are making it saound.

i tried it but it wasnt for me (the meat thing) so im lloking at other religions that promot love and not bigotry and jihads
ISKCON have rules, which many of their own so-called 'spiritual masters' have flaunted, some in the most despicable ways.

But this is about Krishna, not one limited sect who believe in Him.
If you read the Gita, you will find that nowhere does Krishna say that eating meat is forbidden. He simply give the classification of various foods according to which of the gunas they come under.
Few truly spiritual people of whatever path or belief would reccommend intoxication. Some might recommend some drugs such as psychedelics, but these are not really 'intoxicants'.
As for killing - Krishna makes it abundantly clear that on occaision, killing may be necessary, although it should be avioded if possible.
When you say pleasure is bad according to these teachings, I wonder if you've heard that Krishna is the source of all pleasure?

The Bhagavad Gita does not promote 'bigotry' - I just don't know what you mean by that.
The word 'Jihad' occurs only in relation to Islam, and also comes up in the novel 'Dune' - it has nothing to do with Indian philosophy in any of it's manifestations. The battle described in the Gita was not a 'holy war' in the sense of Jihad, but the outcome of a complex political situation, as related in the Mahabharata. Both sides in that war had the same belief system, so 'conversion' by force, which is the function of Jihad doesn't enter into it.

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

Thanks Andrew for explaining it a lot better than I did... :)

Also, yes, you are right...I suppose Krishna does decide if this thread goes on.... ;) lol... :)

Hare Krishna!

[BlackBillBlake]

Also, yes, you are right...I suppose Krishna does decide if this thread goes on.... ;) lol... :)

Hare Krishna!
Dear Nicole -

it's the same way with everything really. The idea that we posses some real will independent of the Divine is an illusion of the ego consciousness. The more we come to realize the Divine is in control, that we are only instruments, the closer we move to God, the more we partake in the Divine nature.

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

A story that I heard recently...



There was a boy whose father left him and he wanted to take revenge on him for that. He asked his mother where he could find God for help. His mother told him: "there's some Babaji's out there in the woods, maybe you should try over there". So he went to the yogi's and started to focus on the supreme lord and went to very extreme austerities.

So he was there, sitting very angry and ready for revenge: "Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya", "Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya", "Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya". (in the meanwhile also thinking "get my father get my father, I hate him I hate him). He was so focused on the supreme lord that even the demi gods were disturbed and so Sri Krishna came down and met him.

He said "oh, THERE you are" (in a very arrogant way). On that very moment he realised that Sri Krishna was standing before him. He suddenly realised he was getting so much mercy from the Lord that he knew getting revenge on his father wasn't necessary. He already reached the highest you could reach at this point: seeing Krishna. He stopped his plans for taking revenge on his father and and lived his life in Service of Krishna.

[Bhaskar]

hehe nice :)

[gdkumar]

Dear Nicole,

Nice story, thanks.

That is how everything including one's ownself get dissolved into Him by taking His holy names.

Love,

Kumar.

[BlackBillBlake]

Dear GD Kumar,


Good to see you back on the forums again :) you have been missed.

Om Shanti!

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

Dear GD Kumar,


Good to see you back on the forums again :) you have been missed.

Om Shanti!
Ditto. :)

[Jedi]

Jai Sri Krishna!!!

[gdkumar]

Hare Krishna!

Jai Sri Krishna!

Thank you Jedi.

Love and prayers,

Kumar.

[gdkumar]

.

[gdkumar]

"ISKCON have rules, which many of their own so-called 'spiritual masters' have flaunted, some in the most despicable ways.

But this is about Krishna, not one limited sect who believe in Him.
If you read the Gita, you will find that nowhere does Krishna say that eating meat is forbidden. He simply give the classification of various foods according to which of the gunas they come under.
Few truly spiritual people of whatever path or belief would reccommend intoxication. Some might recommend some drugs such as psychedelics, but these are not really 'intoxicants'.
As for killing - Krishna makes it abundantly clear that on occaision, killing may be necessary, although it should be avioded if possible.
When you say pleasure is bad according to these teachings, I wonder if you've heard that Krishna is the source of all pleasure?

The Bhagavad Gita does not promote 'bigotry' - I just don't know what you mean by that.
The word 'Jihad' occurs only in relation to Islam, and also comes up in the novel 'Dune' - it has nothing to do with Indian philosophy in any of it's manifestations. The battle described in the Gita was not a 'holy war' in the sense of Jihad, but the outcome of a complex political situation, as related in the Mahabharata. Both sides in that war had the same belief system, so 'conversion' by force, which is the function of Jihad doesn't enter into it."
.....From BBB

Hare Krishna !

Dear BBB,
Thank you for the clear and simple explanation without any ambiguity. Whatever you have said is so very true. Only if all of us could understand the same way about food and other matters, things would have been much better.

With love,
Kumar.

[gdkumar]

"i love krishna- but there ARE some rules. no meat for instance! no intoxication. no killing and i read somewhere that sex-for-pleasure was bad according to it.

also it is a lot happier than you are making it saound.

i tried it but it wasnt for me (the meat thing) so im lloking at other religions that promot love and not bigotry and jihads".......From Amanda's Shadow

Hare Krishna!

Dear Amanda's Shadow,

It was nice to read your views and to know that you love Krishna. I am afraid you are under wrong informations and impression. There are absolutely no rules to love Krishna. The way we want love from all around us, He also wants that He is loved by us. He does not bother whether the lover has eaten meat or taken a peg of whiskey. Glory to him who can love God after drinking liquor and eating meat. There is no rule as to how to love him there are only paths and endless paths to love and reach Him. And the best of all is to remeber Him in everything you do at all times. Once you love Him the questions of eating, drinking, intoxication etc become very meaningless. Because you find Him to be the greatest and only source of all.

His name and thought becomes the best thought, the best food, the best pleasure(More than the sexual pleasure), the best drink and intoxication. He is the eternal source of all.

Most of us have the problem with the name, Krishna. Well, let us take any name that we can easily accept and love Him. Once the love for Him comes truly inside us then the difficulty of acceptance will go away and merger of everything into Krishna or seeing Krishna in everything else will take place.

With love and prayers,

Kumar.

[gdkumar]

"Prabhujee Dayaa Karo
Maname Aana Bao

Tuma Bina Laage Soonaa
Khaali Ghatame Prema Bharo

Tantra Mantra Poojaa Nahi Jaanu
Mai To Kevala Tumako Hi Maanu
Sare Jaga Me Dhundaa Tumako
Aba To Aakara Baahan Dharo

Oh Master, show some compassion on me
Please come and dwell in my heart

Because without you, it is painfully lonely
Fill this empty pot with the nectar of love

I do not know any Tantram Mantra, or ritualistic worship
I know and believe only in you!
I have been searching for you all over the world
Please come and hold my hand now"........From SvgGrdnBeauty

Hare Krishna !

Dear SGB,

That's wonderful ! That is the right way of thinking and praying. That is the true child -father relationship. The simplicity of a child is the best quality to have or grow, if possible.

Thank you.

With love,
Kumar.

[gdkumar]

"Never! This thread is satsang. Why allow a discussion of bhagawan's glories to come to end? As the gopikas put it in their beautiful gopika geet in bhagavatam, tava kathamritam tapta jeevanam... the nectar of your stories gives life to those who are tortured (by this world)..."
..........From Bhaskar

Hare Krishna !

Dear Bhaskar,

It could not be better said, thank you. You have hit the bull's eye. The very purpose of this thread is "Satsang". Glory to all who have contributed here, CCP,BBB,SGB,SJ,Yoga Lady, Jedi,Jagannatha Dasa, Bhaskar....so many names. All did one job only, glorifying the Lord and reiterating the words of hope for all of us. Any seeker, anybody who wants to know about God and His devotees and how one can inch forward towards God, will immensely benefit by reading this thread.

All will benefit from this thread(Book ?) only if they read the pages without any religious bias. Let the Christians read it as Hare Christ, the Muslims as Hare Allah and the Buddhists as Hare Buddha and so on. Well, no debate please. We have done enough and have only gone backwards. Seldom we are willing to do or practise as advised and learn the thruth ourselves. We are little learners and we indulge into indecent arguements with little knowledge acquired from the books.

Everything is in transition, permanency is only in Him and in His name. It does not matter if this thread comes to an end but for sure He and His name will be there everywhere.

With love,

Kumar.

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

Dearest Kumar,


It is wonderful to have your presence on this thread again! :) Thank you for sharing with us all :)

*Peace and Love*
Nicole

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

I found another translation of the Bhagavad-Gita that is very good...its by Spiritual Sky publications...it has all different quotes and explainations by the many great teachers who have translated the work over the years including Srilla Prabhupada, Paramahansa Yogananda, Sri Ramakrishna, and others... I just though you all might be interested...its a little easier (for me) to understand than just reading Bhagavad Gita As It Is...but then again...I've learned many things since I have read that book almost a year ago (wow...I can't believe its been that long)...

[BlackBillBlake]

I may have mentioned this before, but another very good english version of the Gita is the translation by Christopher Isherwood and Swami Prabhavananda.

Here is a brief extract from ch. VII -Knowledge and Experience.

Sri Krishna: Devote your whole mind to me, and practice yoga. Take Me for your only refuge. I will tell you how. by doing this, you can know me in my total reality, without any shadow of doubt. I will give you all this knowledge, and direct spiritual experience, besides. When a man has that, nothing else in this world remains to be known.

Who cares to seek
For that perfect freedom?
One man perhaps
In many thousands.
Then tell me how many
Of those who seek freedom
Shall know the total
Truth of My Being?
Perhaps one only.

My Prakriti is of eightfold composition: earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intellect and ego. You must understand that behind this, and distinct from it, is That which is the principle of consciousness in all beings, and the source of life in all. It sustains the universe.

Know this my Prakriti
United with me:
The womb of all beings.

I am the birth of the cosmos
And its dissolution too.
I am He who causes;
No other beside me.

Upon Me, these worlds are held
Like pearls strung on a thread................

[gdkumar]

"Who cares to seek
For that perfect freedom?
One man perhaps
In many thousands.
Then tell me how many
Of those who seek freedom
Shall know the total
Truth of My Being?
Perhaps one only.

My Prakriti is of eightfold composition: earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intellect and ego. You must understand that behind this, and distinct from it, is That which is the principle of consciousness in all beings, and the source of life in all. It sustains the universe.

Know this my Prakriti
United with me:
The womb of all beings.

I am the birth of the cosmos
And its dissolution too.
I am He who causes;
No other beside me.

Upon Me, these worlds are held
Like pearls strung on a thread................"
.........From BBB(Quoted from The Gita)

Hare Krishna !

Dear BBB,

That is beautiful and that's a great job done, thank you.
It is in very simple and easy words of English to understand. We find little time these days to read much, so it will be a gret job done if we,the devotees, contribute here such beautiful pieces, in easy language, from the Gita, the Bible and other holy books.

Love and best wishes,

Kumar.

[gdkumar]

"I found another translation of the Bhagavad-Gita that is very good...its by Spiritual Sky publications...it has all different quotes and explainations by the many great teachers who have translated the work over the years including Srilla Prabhupada, Paramahansa Yogananda, Sri Ramakrishna, and others... I just though you all might be interested...its a little easier (for me) to understand than just reading Bhagavad Gita As It Is...but then again...I've learned many things since I have read that book almost a year ago (wow...I can't believe its been that long)..."
.......From SvgGrdnBeauty.
Hare Krishna !

Dear SGB,

That piece of very good information must be very much useful for many of us, thank you. Reading any book is a matter of great art and skill. It is difficult to explain but three different people arrive at three totally different meaning after reading the same book, we are aware of that. So, definitely it becomes much easier to read the holy books written in much simpler way. However, still the fact remains that we need to read them over and over again. Because understanding them depends mainly on your mental make-up. As you read them again and again, his compassion comes and you understand even the most difficult part and also you get new meaning of the apparently understood thing.

Love ,

Kumar.

[gdkumar]

Hare Krishna !

Dear devotees,

The following is a piece of beautiful conversation between Ma Indira and Her spiritual master (Guru) , Dadaji (Dilip Kumar Roy). Hope, you will like it :

HIS FLUTE

Ma (With a smile) : People keep asking about His Flute, Dada! But believe me, to them it is all words ! One note of His Flute and my every pore is filled... every drop of my blood is set aflame. I tell you, Dada, if you once heard His Flute, your whole world would be consumed to ashes in a flash. The other day I was buying some vegetables in the market. All around me was nothing but din, dust and hurry. Suddenly, I heard just a single note....just one and the whole world trembled and melted away into a shadow : only He survived...the sole reality ! But I could not very well tell this to the fruit seller, could I, and be taken for a mad woman ? So I just stood there and pretended to look inside my purse..... O Dada, I can tell you when one hears His Flute : when your nearest and dearest delights in the world are reduced to dust beside Him, then only you may be sure that you have heard His Flute.

(Taken from "The Rounding Off" by Ma Indira Devi)

So, that is it. Let us pray to have that ear to hear His Flute.
With love,

Kumar.

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

Dear SGB,

That piece of very good information must be very much useful for many of us, thank you. Reading any book is a matter of great art and skill. It is difficult to explain but three different people arrive at three totally different meaning after reading the same book, we are aware of that. So, definitely it becomes much easier to read the holy books written in much simpler way. However, still the fact remains that we need to read them over and over again. Because understanding them depends mainly on your mental make-up. As you read them again and again, his compassion comes and you understand even the most difficult part and also you get new meaning of the apparently understood thing.

Love ,

Kumar.
Yes...I found that to be true...oh and sorry everyone...it was Sky Light Publications! ::oops:: hehe. :)

[Bhaskar]

Has anybody here at all read Swami Chinmayananda's The Holy Geeta? It is one of the most brilliant commentaries on the text, very carefully reasoned, scientific, logical and beautiful.

[gdkumar]

Hare Krishna!

Dear Bhaskar,

I have not read but have heard a lot about The Holy Gita by Swami Chinmayananda. It would be a matter of great pleasure to know more about Swami Chinmayananda from you. The Holy Gita and Swami Chimayananda are like the sides of the same coin. A great life and a great Yogi.

Love,

Kumar.

[Bhaskar]

Gurudev Chinmayanandji... He was a journalist and a passionate freedom fighter. He was captured and jailed by the British and then when he was on the brink of death they threw out into a gutter to die. There he was found and rescued by a compasisonate old lady who nursed him back to health. After independance, he worked to bring social reform and in an attempt to expose all Gurus and Swamis for frauds, he went to Rishikesh to interview Swami Sivananda. Sivanandji said that there is no use of a single interview, he suggested a whole months stay to research the story. At the end of that month, Gurudev took Sanyasa. He then went to Uttar Kasi to study vedanta from Swami Tapovanam. Later he descended to the plains to teach vedanta to the people. His style of oratory and writing was crisp, scientific, lively and engaging. Gurudev was a tower of majesty, a magnificent edifice to the enormity of human potential.

[gdkumar]

Hare Krishna!

Dear Bhaskar,

That's wonderful and amazing! Thank you. It also tells us how destiny works for us in most inexplicable ways. Glory to Mahajnani Swami Sivananda and His most distinguished disciple , your Guruji, parampujyapad Swami Chinmayananda.

Jai Guru ! Jai Guru ! Jai Guru !


Love,

Kumar.

[gdkumar]

HARE KRISHNA !

SWAMI RANGANATHANANDA IS NO MORE IN HIS MORTAL BODY

Another great Yogi mahapurush, mahajnani, param pujyapad Swami Ranganathananda(SHANKAR Maharaj) breathed his last on monday at 1551 hrs (Indian Standard Time) at a hospital in Calcutta.

Shankar Maharaj was the Acharya and President of Sri Ramakrishna Math and Mission in its Head Office at Belur (Calcutta,India). He was 96.
He was born Shankaran in Trikkur in Kerala on December 15,1908 and at the age of 18 He renounced everything and took Mantra Dikhsha from Swami Shivananda (Mahapurush Maharaj, one of the twelve disciples of Sri Ramakrishna Paramahansa.) Later, He took Sanyas in 1933 from Swami Shivananda and after a long sadhana He came back to us to shower His grace ,kindness and compassion on us.

He had travelled all over the world and was known internationally as a great yogi and a great scholar. He had written several books. He conformed to true religion of mankind, to be tolerant and respectful to all and to love and reach God by loving one and all.

Pranam at His lotus feet.

Kumar

[Anita]

DEAR, DEAR GDKUMAR!!! I'm so glad that you're on line!! Can you talk with me? Are you Buddhist (I don't know how to write this word. Sorry)? I also want to be in this religion, but I can't find information about it!! Can you tell me sth about it? PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[gdkumar]

"DEAR, DEAR GDKUMAR!!! I'm so glad that you're on line!! Can you talk with me? Are you Buddhist (I don't know how to write this word. Sorry)? I also want to be in this religion, but I can't find information about it!! Can you tell me sth about it? PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Hare Krishna !

Dear Anita,

Thank you for your kind post. Well, it is not very easy to answer your queries. First of all I am not a Buddhist the way people go by to establish one's lineage. In that sense I am a Hindu.

But honestly, I always loved to be identified with all the religions. Honestly, I do not know anything about any religion(Including Hinduism) and I am afraid I do not qualify to tell you anything about any religion.

I have learnt, by the grace and compassion of my Guru and by my life as a teacher, that to love one and all without any discrimination is the best way to love, worship and reach God. Before you ask me l would like to tell you that my Guruji never spoke a word of Hinduism or any other religion. He only talked about God and how we can reach Him.

So, dear Anita, that is it. If you love one and all with the knowledge that you are loving and worshipping God only, I suppose you will automatically belong not only to Buddhism or Hinduism but to all religions on this earth. Because all religions,after all, centre about God alone.

With love and best wishes,

Kumar.

[Anita]

It's easy - all you need is love!!!

[gdkumar]

Hare Krishna !

Dear Anita,

Yes, it is easy. What we need is unconditional love. It sounds so simple but in practice it is not so.

The fellow who has given me pain, suffering and tears in my eyes despite loving him, it is not at all easy to continue loving him. It is not easy not to have unkind thoughts about him and to forgive him.

Here comes the question of unconditional love, love without any expectation of anything in lieu of. Probabaly only after having such unconditional love one can say like Lord Jesus, " Oh God, they do not know what they are doing, please forgive them." even after bearing the pain and torture of crucifixion.

Anita, dear, no great thing grows or happens in a day or overnight but definitely we can develop this matchless quality through His compassion and over a long process of practising it.

With love, best wishes and prayers,

Kumar.

[BlackBillBlake]

It's easy - all you need is love!!!
You are right Anita - if you have love, you have everything.
It has been said that the Divine, God - whatever name you use - is like vast sun radiating love. We just have to step into the sunlight.

Love & peace.

[gdkumar]

Hare Krishna!

MAHAJNANI'S KATHAMRITA

Faith, reliance upon God, surrender and self-giving to the Divine Power are necessary and indispensable. But reliance upon God must not be made an excuse for indolence, weakness and surrender to the impulses of the lower Nature : it it must go along with untiring aspiration and a persistent rejection of all that comes in the way of the Divine Truth. The surrender to the Divine must not be turned into an excuse, a cloak or an occasion for surrender to one's own desires and lower movements or to one's ego or to some Force of the ignorance and darkness that puts on a false appearance of the Divine.

...............From "Bases of Yoga" by Sri Aurobindo.

Love,

Kumar.

[gdkumar]

Hare Krishna!

MAHAJNANI'S KATHAMRITA :

You have only to aspire, to keep yourself open to the Mother, to reject all that is contrary to her will and to let her work in you - doing also all your work for her and in the faith that it is through her force that you can do it. If you remain open in this way the knowledge and realisation will come to you in due course.
........From "The Bases of Yoga" By Sri Aurobindo.

Love,

Kumar.

[gdkumar]

Hare Krishna!

MAHAJNANI'S KATHAMRITA :

It does not matter what defects you may have in your nature. The one thing that matters is your keeping yourself open to the Force. Nobody can transform himself by his own unaided efforts; it is only the Divine Force that can transform him. If you keep yourself open, all the rest will be done for you.
............From "BASES OF YOGA" By Sri Aurobindo.

Love,

Kumar.

[Bhaskar]

Hari om!

There is a bhajan by goswami Tulsidasji who says, "I have heard that Sri Hari is patit paava, one who purifies the fallen. I am fallen and he is one who purifies the fallen, such a wonderful match has been made between us."

[BlackBillBlake]

Thanks gdkumar for the Sri Aurobindo quotes.

Here is short extract from 'The Sunlit Path' by Sweet Mother -

Come out of words.
The main trouble is that you think with words, but these words are empty of meaning; most of the time they are mere words - you talk of the Divine, you talk of the Supreme, you talk of yoga, you say many things, but does all that correspond in your head to something concrete? To a thought, a feeling, a clear idea, an experience? Or are they simply words?
...You must see the thing, the experience behind the words. Here, we speak of "yoga", but elsewhere one would speak differently; some would say "I am seeking my raison d'etre", and so on. Those who have a religiouis bent will say "I want to find the Divine Presence". There are fifty ways of saying the thing but it is the thing which is important; you must feel it in your head, in your heart, everywhere. It must be concrete, living, otherwise you cannot advance. You must come out of words and get into action - get into the experience, get into life.

Om Namo Bhagavate

[gdkumar]

"Here is short extract from 'The Sunlit Path' by Sweet Mother -

Come out of words.
The main trouble is that you think with words, but these words are empty of meaning; most of the time they are mere words - you talk of the Divine, you talk of the Supreme, you talk of yoga, you say many things, but does all that correspond in your head to something concrete? To a thought, a feeling, a clear idea, an experience? Or are they simply words?
...You must see the thing, the experience behind the words. Here, we speak of "yoga", but elsewhere one would speak differently; some would say "I am seeking my raison d'etre", and so on. Those who have a religiouis bent will say "I want to find the Divine Presence". There are fifty ways of saying the thing but it is the thing which is important; you must feel it in your head, in your heart, everywhere. It must be concrete, living, otherwise you cannot advance. You must come out of words and get into action - get into the experience, get into life.

Om Namo Bhagavate"
.... ...............From BlackBillBlake


Hare Krishna !

Dear BBB,

It is wonderful, thank you for giving us that.
Sweet Mother knew exactly where we, the children, mostly go wrong. So, she said, "You must come out of words and get into action - get into the experience, get into life." Glory to The Mother. Let us all understand and follow this wonderful teaching.

Love,

Kumar.

[gdkumar]

There is a bhajan by goswami Tulsidasji who says, "I have heard that Sri Hari is patit paava, one who purifies the fallen. I am fallen and he is one who purifies the fallen, such a wonderful match has been made between us."
...............From Bhaskar.

Hare Krishna!

Dear Bhaskar,

What to say, you have given so much of 'Shanti' thro' Tulsidasji....Thank you !
That's wonderful and that is truly the wonderful match between Him and all of us. We are the fallen, He first purifies and then embraces us. Thank you again.

Love,

Kumar.

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

Thank you Kumar, Andrew (BBB), and Bhaskar for sharing all these beautiful passages. :) :)

[gdkumar]

Hare Krishna!

ATTITUDE

The noble idealist frets and fumes:
"I grope my way in vain in the gloom:
In this world, a labyrinth of thorns,
How can His flawless lotus bloom?"

The humble realist sings: "But I
Must kindle the lamp He's given to me:
I'd shed what little love's light I can
Rather than curse night endlessly."

..........From HARK ! HIS FLUTE ! By Dilip Kumar Roy(Dadaji).

Let us kindle the lamp He has given to us and shed little love's light to all.

Love,
Kumar.

[gdkumar]

Hare Krishna!

CRUCIFIXION

O Beloved of God! who, in compassion,
Camst down once to seek birth
In our discord's den - with Song's invasion
To transform the din of earth,

And preach thy sky-love's gospel to clay
And the heavy-laden to invite
To rest in thy sweet lap, for aye,
Where love is one with light.

We cry and cry, desolate, for Bliss,
But when the Boon is sent,
Carried by thee, His son, we hiss
Away the firmament,

O how we, doting on our cage,
Blaspheme thy Bounty's sky
And when thy Grace still calls, in rage,
Alas, thee crucify !

.........From "HARK ! HIS FLUTE !" ....By Dilip Kumar Roy(Dadaji).

Lord Jesus is still here with us with all His blessings and eternal love for us, let us understand and not hiss away the firmament anymore.

Love,
Kumar

[gdkumar]

Hare Krishna!

THE CONDITION

I long to touch, I yearn to see,
I ache to clasp and hold.
But when my hands I stretch to thee,
I find my heart's still cold.

Can we by merely clamouring
Thy angel boons receive,
Unless to thee we pray and sing
And like a child believe

That thou, our one Friend Evergreen,
Answerest when we cry
And wouldst resolve our world's deep din
If for thy Grace we sigh ?

I'll find thee, Lord, when I will lay
At thy feet all I call mine;
For then on me thou'lt smile and say
That now, at last, I'm thine.

........From "HARK! HIS FLUTE!"......By Dilip Kumar Roy(Dadaji)

Let us believe like a child, chant His name and surrender all that we call ours, to find and see Him.

Love,
Kumar.

[BlackBillBlake]

Three very nice pieces - thanks gdk - and for your own comments.

It's a shame that the works of Dilip Kumar Roy aren't better known and more widely available in Europe and America.

Jai Govinda!

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

Hare Krishna!

Thank you Kumar for those wonderful poems...I would really like to find that book and read more. I esp. liked the second two (not that the first one wasn't absolutely amazing)... Thank you for sharing them with all of us... :)

*Peace and Love*
Nicole

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

The Blossom Never Knows

The blossom never knows the fragrance sweet

That in its blossom’s mystery lies,

The deeps that mirror forth the Infinite

Question its secrets with their sighs.



For whom throng still the murmuring bees,

Restless amid the perfumed trees?

Whose memory thrills the impassioned breeze

And paints the magic skies?



Whose one lamps through the way-lost night

Glimmer in moon and starry light?

Whose glory in the dawn breaks bright?

For whom yearns all and cries?

For whose greatness down the ages long

Are the wide heavens a sapphire song?

For whom runs the stream with bablling tongue,

Repeats whose harmonies?



Whose breath perfumes trees, flower and grass,

Inspires the atoms’s dance in space?

Whose trailing robes in twilight pass,

A shadow in longing eyes?



Oh, if thou never wilt appear,

Why are thy masks of Beauty here?

Why sound thy anklets everywhere,

The spell that never dies?

My heart forgets that in my heart

Thy throne for ever lies.





- Dilip Kumar Roy (http://www.poetseers.org/spiritual_and_devotional_poets/dilip_kumar_roy/dilip_roy_poems/dilip_kumar_roy/)


From: Among the Great 1950: by Dilip Kumar Roy (out of print)

[Bhaskar]

Heaven is right around the bend
but hell is close behind
the world woos you from all sides
beware. It is a deadly blind.

The road to tread is straight ahead
look not left nor right.
Steady legs! Droop not head!!
The end is within sight!!

The road is long and paved with nails
but the end is fair and sweet
for Krishna bhagawan is waiting there
Run!
Run!!
Run to His Lotus Feet!!!!

His skin glows, his flute blows,
poised upon his lips.
What a blessing for that piece of wood
to recieve Sri Hari's kiss!

From that flute there spreads a single note
"Come!! Come join my dance!!!"
O call divine!!! Leave all behind!!!
Don't waste this unique chance!!!

A human birth , is rare on Earth,
and swift from cradle to grave.
but this time, you shall be mine,
O my beloved Vasudev!!

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

Oh I like that very much Bhaskar. :) I could picture Krishna in my head calling the devotee to himself with his music. :)

[BlackBillBlake]

Hope this won't seem out of place - it's one of my favourites.


Ah, Sun-flower!

Ah, Sun-flower! weary of time,
Who countest the steps of the sun;
Seeking after that sweet golden clime,
Where the traveller's journey is done;

Where the youth pined away with desire,
And the pale virgin shrouded in snow,
Arise from their graves, and aspire
Where my Sun-flower wishes to go.

William Blake.
'Songs of Experience'

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

Oo...I like that one. Its funny...I just took the Advanced Placement English Lit. test and the poetry question in the free response were poems by William Blake...they were both called "The Chimney Sweep" and the first one reminded me of the path of karma yoga (which ended up in my essay)...but I will stop rambling...lol...

[Bhaskar]

I love William Blake, his poetry bears the scent of transcendent experience...

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

The Chimney Sweeper

William Blake (http://poetry.poetryx.com/poets/34/)

When my mother died I was very young,
And my father sold me while yet my tongue,
Could scarcely cry weep weep weep weep,
So your chimneys I sweep & in soot I sleep.

There's little Tom Dacre, who cried when his head
That curled like a lambs back was shav’d, so I said.
Hush Tom never mind it, for when your head’s bare,
You know that the soot cannot spoil your white hair

And so he was quiet. & that very night.
As Tom was a sleeping he had such a sight
That thousands of sweepers Dick, Joe, Ned, & Jack
Were all of them lock’d up in coffins of black,

And by came an Angel who had a bright key
And he open’d the coffins & set them all free.
Then down a green plain leaping laughing they run
And wash in a river and shine in the Sun.

Then naked & white, all their bags left behind.
They rise upon clouds, and sport in the wind.
And the Angel told Tom, if he’d be a good boy,
He’d have God for his father & never want joy.

And so Tom awoke and we rose in the dark
And got with our bags & our brushes to work.
Tho’ the morning was cold,
Tom was happy & warm
So if all do their duty, they need not fear harm.

Online text © 1998-2005 Poetry X. All rights reserved.
From Songs of Innocence | 1789

[Bhaskar]

...and as the seekers and devotees of bhagavan pined for union with him,

bhagavan api ta ratriih
sharadotphulla mallikaha
vikshayantum manashchakre
yogamayamupashritaha

Bhagawan Sri Krishna, during those beautiful autumn nights, when the breeze carried the scent of freshly blooming jasmine, also made up His mind to consummate their devotion and employed his yogic creative power to fulfil theyr yearning.

Thus begins the beautiful raasa panchadhyayi, the five chapters of Srimad Bhagawat Puranam which describe the raasa leela, the dance of love between bhagawan and devotees.

[BlackBillBlake]

The Price of Experience.

What is the price of experience? do men buy it for
a song,
Or wisdom for a dance in the street? No! it is
bought with the price
Of all that man hath - his house, his wife, his
children.
Wisdom is sold in the desolate market where none
come to buy,
And in the withered field where the farmer ploughs
for bread in vain.

It is an easy thing to triumph in the summer's sun,
And in the vintage, and to sing on the wagon loaded
with corn.
It is an easy thing to talk of patience to the afflicted,
To speak the laws of prudence to the houseless wanderer,
To listen to the hungry Raven's cry in wintry season,
When the red blood is filled with wine, and with the
marrow of lambs:
It is an easy thing to laugh at wrathful elements;
To hear the dog howl at the wintry door, the ox in the
slaughter house moan;
To see a god on every wind, and a blessing on every
blast;
To hear sounds of love in the thunder storm, that
destroys our enemies' house,
To rejoice in the blight that covers his field, and the
sickness that cuts off his children,
While our olive and vine sing and laugh round our
door, and our children bring fruits and flowers.

Then the groan and the dolor are quite forgotten,
and the slave grinding at the mill.
And the captive in chains, and the poor in the prison,
and the soldier in the field,
When the shatter'd bone hath left him groaning
among the happier dead;
It is an easy thing to rejoice in the tents of prosperity -
Thus could I sing, and thus rejoice; but it is not so
with me.

William Blake
'The Four Zoas'

[BlackBillBlake]

I love William Blake, his poetry bears the scent of transcendent experience...
I too love Blake.
To me, he is a great inspiration. My favourite English poet. Almost like a friend...

There is no doubting that he was an extraordinary visionary, possesed of an almost titanic energy. A great lover of Jesus Christ, and a great artist.
In my opinion, one of the greatest Englishmen.

[Bhaskar]

Another poet with flashes of divinity, which unfortunately faded later in his life, was William Worsdworth.

[BlackBillBlake]

Another poet with flashes of divinity, which unfortunately faded later in his life, was William Worsdworth.
Wordsworth was great.
Greater still though as a romantic poet ( a category sometimes applied to Blake, which is not appropriate in his case) was Shelly. But worsworth is probably more accessible to to-day's readers. Myself, I'm not a great fan of Wordsworth, although of course I acknowledge his undoubted genius - just not my taste. See Lord Byrons 'English Bards and Scotch Reviewers'. :) Byron states exactly my own reasons for not liking Wordsworth.

[Bhaskar]

Oh yes, how could I forget Shelley... His words dripped with beauty, although his poetry was not as metaphysical, it was more romantic.

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

Quest For God

O'ver hill and dale and mountain range,
In temple, church, and mosque,
In Vedas, Bible, Al Koran
I had searched for Thee in vain.
Like a child in the wildest forest lost
I have cried and cried alone,
"Where art Thou gone, my God, my love?
The echo answered, "gone."

And days and nights and years then passed
A fire was in the brain,
I knew not when day changed in night
The heart seemed rent in twain.
I laid me down on Ganges's shore,
Exposed to sun and rain;
With burning tears I laid the dust
And wailed with waters' roar.

I called on all the holy names
Of every clime and creed.
"Show me the way, in mercy, ye
Great ones who have reached the goal."

Years then passed in bitter cry,
Each moment seemed an age,
Till one day midst my cries and groans
Some one seemed calling me.

A gentle soft and soothing voice
That said 'my son' 'my son',
That seemed to thrill in unison
With all the chords of my soul.

I stood on my feet and tried to find
The place the voice came from;
I searched and searched and turned to see
Round me, before, behind,
Again, again it seemed to speak
The voice divine to me.
In rapture all my soul was hushed,
Entranced, enthralled in bliss.

A flash illumined all my soul;
The heart of my heart opened wide.
O joy, O bliss, what do I find!
My love, my love you are here
And you are here, my love, my all!

And I was searching thee -
From all eternity you were there
Enthroned in majesty!
From that day forth, wherever I roam,
I feel Him standing by
O'ver hill and dale, high mount and vale,
Far far away and high.

The moon's soft light, the stars so bright,
The glorious orb of day,
He shines in them; His beauty - might -
Reflected lights are they.
The majestic morn, the melting eve,
The boundless billowing sea,
In nature's beauty, songs of birds,
I see through them - it is He.

When dire calamity seizes me,
The heart seems weak and faint,
All nature seems to crush me down,
With laws that never bend.
Meseems I hear Thee whispering sweet
My love, "I am near", "I am near".
My heart gets strong. With thee, my love,
A thousand deaths no fear.
Thou speakest in the mother's lay
Thou shuts the babies eye,
When innocent children laugh and play,
I see Thee standing by.

When holy friendship shakes the hand,
He stands between them too;
He pours the nectar in mother's kiss
And the baby's sweet "mama".
Thou wert my God with prophets old,
All creeds do come from Thee,
The Vedas, Bible, and Koran bold
Sing Thee in Harmony.

"Thou art," Thou art" the Soul of souls
In the rushing stream of life.
"Om tat sat om." Thou art my God,
My love, I am thine, I am thine.

- Swami Vivekananda

[gdkumar]

Hare Krishna!

Dear SGB,

All three pieces, The Blossom Never Knows(By Dadaji), The Chimney Sweeper(By William Blake) and The Quest For God (By Swami Vivekananda), are wonderful. I like them all but love the "The Blossom Never Knows" most.

Where were you for so long ? Absence of your gentle care and touch is always felt and becomes conspicuous.

Love,

Kumar.

[gdkumar]

"While we are sharing poems... Heaven is right around the bend
but hell is close behind
the world woos you from all sides
beware. It is a deadly blind.

The road to tread is straight ahead
look not left nor right.
Steady legs! Droop not head!!
The end is within sight!!

The road is long and paved with nails
but the end is fair and sweet
for Krishna bhagawan is waiting there
Run!
Run!!
Run to His Lotus Feet!!!!

His skin glows, his flute blows,
poised upon his lips.
What a blessing for that piece of wood
to recieve Sri Hari's kiss!

From that flute there spreads a single note
"Come!! Come join my dance!!!"
O call divine!!! Leave all behind!!!
Don't waste this unique chance!!!

A human birth , is rare on Earth,
and swift from cradle to grave.
but this time, you shall be mine,
O my beloved Vasudev!!

__________________ " ...... From Bhaskar.


Hare Krishna!

Dear Bhaskar,

Wonderful! That's absolutely amazing. Thank you!
I was jealous of all those who have had heard His flute, now I am jealous of that flute, the piece of wood, even.

Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna!

Love,

Kumar.

[crummyrummy]

sorry to sound stupid or at least ignorant, but I though Hare Krishna was an off shoot of Hindu?

[gdkumar]

"Hope this won't seem out of place - it's one of my favourites.

Ah, Sun-flower!

Ah, Sun-flower! weary of time,
Who countest the steps of the sun;
Seeking after that sweet golden clime,
Where the traveller's journey is done;

Where the youth pined away with desire,
And the pale virgin shrouded in snow,
Arise from their graves, and aspire
Where my Sun-flower wishes to go.

William Blake.
'Songs of Experience'..."................From BlackBillBlake

Hare Krishna!

Dear BBB,

Thanks for the wonderful piece which is one of my favourites as well.
Regarding your other comments on DKR , I think it is the common problem of forgetting things. As far as I know He was very well known in Europe, particularly in U.K. and France. He could speak and write fluently in English, French and Spanish. Ma was also fluent in English and French. Ma(From Punjab) could speak Bengali also, fluently. Both of them had a very large and culturally rich circle of friends in Europe. Those friends were all very well known and internationally famous in literature and spiritual world. But He was more widely and commonly known in the field of music. He was one of the greatest music composers of India. Slowly His life turned into a tyagi Sannyasi's life and He became all in one or Nirguna.

Love,

Kumar.

[gdkumar]

"sorry to sound stupid or at least ignorant, but I though Hare Krishna was an off shoot of Hindu?"
............From CrummyRummy

Hare Krishna!

Dear CrummyRummy,

Thanks for your post. I am afraid not you but now I will sound totally stupid and ignorant. Hare Krishna simply means worshipping Krishna. Now Krishna stands as a symbol of universal love which is unconditional and so without any discrimination. Now I do not know whether Krishna can belong to any particular religion or community or country. He belongs to everybody and to the whole world. We are the lovers and He is the beloved. That is the only identity. Somebody calls Him Jesus, some as Buddha, Allah and so on. Well, you can choose which name you like most to call Him by.

Hope, this helps you.

Love,

Kumar.

[crummyrummy]

"sorry to sound stupid or at least ignorant, but I though Hare Krishna was an off shoot of Hindu?"
............From CrummyRummy

Hare Krishna!

Dear CrummyRummy,

Thanks for your post. I am afraid not you but now I will sound totally stupid and ignorant. Hare Krishna simply means worshipping Krishna. Now Krishna stands as a symbol of universal love which is unconditional and so without any discrimination. Now I do not know whether Krishna can belong to any particular religion or community or country. He belongs to everybody and to the whole world. We are the lovers and He is the beloved. That is the only identity. Somebody calls Him Jesus, some as Buddha, Allah and so on. Well, you can choose which name you like most to call Him by.

Hope, this helps you.

Love,

Kumar.
Its a start. Thank you for not mocking me.

[cabdirazzaq]

Both sides in that war had the same belief system, so 'conversion' by force, which is the function of Jihad doesn't enter into it.
Where does it say that the function of jihad is to convert by force, this is against the quran it self: "Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error..."[2.255]

If its function was to convert people by force then how come there are millions of arab christians still living in countries such as Syria and Egypt? Their churces have remained there in hundreds of years without being demolished, this because of the treaties which were signed between them. One of the close companions wrote to the people of Damascus:

"This is what Khalid ibn al-Walid would grant to the inhabitants of Damascus if he enters therein: he promises to give them security for their lives, property and churches. Their city wall shall not be demolished, neither shall any Muslim be quartered in their houses. Thereunto we give them the pact of Allah and the protection of His Prophet, the caliphs and the believers. So long as they pay the poll tax(in order to be protected by the large muslim nation), nothing but good shall befall them. "

We could take that question and ask it the other way around, how come there are almost no muslims or mosques in todays Spain even though muslims lived there like 700 years. During that time, jews, christians and muslim were living together without any complications until a certain catholic queen felt like breaking that peace treaty and ordered for all the jews to chose to either be exiled or convert, 20 000 thousands jews had to leave their home! The muslims soon faced the same criteria.

If you want to make a point, please get the facts right.

[cabdirazzaq]

"sorry to sound stupid or at least ignorant, but I though Hare Krishna was an off shoot of Hindu?"
............From CrummyRummy

Hare Krishna!

Dear CrummyRummy,

Thanks for your post. I am afraid not you but now I will sound totally stupid and ignorant. Hare Krishna simply means worshipping Krishna. Now Krishna stands as a symbol of universal love which is unconditional and so without any discrimination. Now I do not know whether Krishna can belong to any particular religion or community or country. He belongs to everybody and to the whole world. We are the lovers and He is the beloved. That is the only identity. Somebody calls Him Jesus, some as Buddha, Allah and so on. Well, you can choose which name you like most to call Him by.

Hope, this helps you.

Love,

Kumar.
If the love is unconditional, then we are certainly not speaking about the same god here which should exlude the name Allah from your list ^^

Say: "If ye do love Allah, Follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins: For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." [Imraan]

[gdkumar]

"Its a start. Thank you for not mocking me."
.........FromCrummyRummy

Hare Krishna!

Dear CrummyRummy,

How can I or anybody else do that? Once you love Him you love all around you because you see your beloved in everything, all ill thoughts dissolve and only He remains. You are most welcome here to join all others who know only one thing...to share love with each other.

Love,

Kumar.

[crummyrummy]

I dont follow the faith, i didnt know that.

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

Hare Krishna!

Dear SGB,

All three pieces, The Blossom Never Knows(By Dadaji), The Chimney Sweeper(By William Blake) and The Quest For God (By Swami Vivekananda), are wonderful. I like them all but love the "The Blossom Never Knows" most.

Where were you for so long ? Absence of your gentle care and touch is always felt and becomes conspicuous.

Love,

Kumar.
Dearest Kumar,

I am glad you enjoyed the three poems...after the other night I just got in the mood and I've been reading poetry like that none stop....I found some particularly beautiful ones by Mirabai. :) Also, I wasn't on for awhile because my computer wouldn't connect to the internet again...but now its fixed :) (it wasn't a really bad problem like the last time. :) )

"Unbreakable, O Lord,
Is the love
That binds me to You:
Like a diamond,
It breaks the hammer that strikes it.
My heart goes into You
As the polish goes into the gold.
As the lotus lives in its water,
I live in You.
Like the bird
That gazes all night
At the passing moon,
I have lost myself dwelling in You.
O my Beloved - Return.

-Mirabai

--------
This is the website I've been reading...its got some beautiful poetry from many different faiths. :)
http://www.poetseers.org/the_poetseers/

*Peace and Love*
Nicole

[gdkumar]

Hare Krishna!

Dear Cabdirazzaq,

Thank you for your two posts. I understand what you tried to get at but please let us not get into any arguments. For Allah's sake please understand that I did not have any intention to annoy you or make you unhappy.

We have fought enough world over, we have smeared enough blood with hatred, we have divided ourselves enough into a number of communities but nothing could bring the all important and desired fraternity and love amongst us. In all these God or Allah does not come in between and becomes responsible. We cause/caused all self-inflicted miseries. It has really been enough. What I am telling you, I tell myself and all others , too. It has been enough and it is only our responsibility to re-establish the new era of love and love alone.

So, let us endeavour in that direction.

With love,

Kumar.

[cabdirazzaq]

Thank you, I appreciate the answer
You have to understand though that I do not really care if someone gives me a hard time because of my skin color, my looks or my personality but I can not stand my religion being misquoted.

[gdkumar]

"Unbreakable, O Lord,
Is the love
That binds me to You:
Like a diamond,
It breaks the hammer that strikes it.
My heart goes into You
As the polish goes into the gold.
As the lotus lives in its water,
I live in You.
Like the bird
That gazes all night
At the passing moon,
I have lost myself dwelling in You.
O my Beloved - Return.

-Mirabai"
..........................From SGB

Hare Krishna!

Dear SGB,

Thank you, thank you, dear ! That is wonderful and entrancing.

I am happy that your PC is O.K. now, it is good that we will see you regularly at the forums now.

Love,

Kumar.

[Bhaskar]

In the raasa panchadhyayi, the gopikas ask Sri Krishna
bhajato anubhajanty eka

eka etad viparyayam
nobhayaḿshcha bhajantyeka
etan no bruhi sadhu bhoh

There are 3 types of people in this world: those who only love others who love them; those who love others unconditionally; those who love nobody at all. What do you call such people?


Sri Krishna replied: Those who love only when they are loved are selfish people, who don't know true friendship or love.

Those who love others unconditionally are truly kind-hearted, or like parents, deeply attached and so bound to love.

Those who don't love others no matter what, fall into 2 categories: utterly ungrateful and the realized souls. Those who are totally ungrateful and heartless love nobody, even if these people do good for them. Those who are realized souls love nobody, because they don't see the distinction of me and them; they dont see any otherness and so cannot love others.

[gdkumar]

Hare Krishna!

Dear Bhaskar,

Thank you for the wonderful piece of Jnana-yoga.
Once realization comes it is all me , neither I can hate nor I can love anybody.
The necessity goes away, but the realized souls still do it .... give love to one and all when they are amongst us in the society. That is for lok-siksha.

Love,

Kumar.

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

Two Rivers- Ralph Waldo Emerson




Thy summer voice, Musketaquit,
Repeats the music of the rain;
But sweeter rivers pulsing flit
Through thee, as thou through the Concord Plain. Thou in thy narrow banks art pent:
The stream I love unbounded goes
Through flood and sea and firmament;
Through light, through life, it forward flows.

I see the inundation sweet,
I hear the spending of the steam
Through years, through men, through Nature fleet,
Through love and thought, through power and dream.

Musketaquit, a goblin strong,
Of shard and flint makes jewels gay;
They lose their grief who hear his song,
And where he winds is the day of day.

So forth and brighter fares my stream,--
Who drink it shall not thirst again;
No darkness taints its equal gleam,
And ages drop in it like rain.

[Bhaskar]

Hare Krishna!

Dear Bhaskar,

Thank you for the wonderful piece of Jnana-yoga.
Once realization comes it is all me , neither I can hate nor I can love anybody.
The necessity goes away, but the realized souls still do it .... give love to one and all when they are amongst us in the society. That is for lok-siksha.

Love,

Kumar.
Kumarji,

That is vyavahara, for the sake of conduct in this temporal world, the enlightened ones also function in duality, although in constant abidance in the one self. It is like acting in a play, then. Knowing ones identity, the actor continues to play the role in which he is cast.

[gdkumar]

"That is vyavahara, for the sake of conduct in this temporal world, the enlightened ones also function in duality, although in constant abidance in the one self. It is like acting in a play, then. Knowing ones identity, the actor continues to play the role in which he is cast."
~~~~~~From Bhaskar.

Hare Krishna!

Dear Bhaskar,

Thank you for the post. It is exactly so.
The enlightened ones go above all needs, they live only to complete their part of the Divine Lila. They live for some Divine purpose, one being reflecting His compassion to uplift us and to turn us towards Him.

Love,

Kumar.

[gdkumar]

Two Rivers- Ralph Waldo Emerson

Thy summer voice, Musketaquit,
Repeats the music of the rain;
But sweeter rivers pulsing flit
Through thee, as thou through the Concord Plain. Thou in thy narrow banks art pent:
The stream I love unbounded goes
Through flood and sea and firmament;
Through light, through life, it forward flows.

I see the inundation sweet,
I hear the spending of the steam
Through years, through men, through Nature fleet,
Through love and thought, through power and dream.

Musketaquit, a goblin strong,
Of shard and flint makes jewels gay;
They lose their grief who hear his song,
And where he winds is the day of day.

So forth and brighter fares my stream,--
Who drink it shall not thirst again;
No darkness taints its equal gleam,
And ages drop in it like rain.
.....From SvgGrdnBeauty
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hare Krishna!

Dear SGB,

That is very very beautiful, thank you.

Love,
Kumar.

[gdkumar]

Hare Krishna!

Mira was a real Princess but was more popularly known as the Beggar Princess. She had left everything behind just for a glimpse of Krishna, her Beloved. She was a Premi Bhakta, a devotee of the highest level.

MIRA'S PRAYER

When will you open your door, Beloved, when will you open
your door ?
How hard you've grown ! Oh, will you smile on Mira nevermore ?

I know how sinful I am and how of sin you disapprove :
But, Appraiser of all hearts ! tell me : which is greater : sin or love ?
Would you, too, by our flares and flickers assay us from on high
And like to the upright men ignore our waylost love's lone cry ?

I'm not versed in austerities, nor meditation's lore :
Love, love's my prayer, worship, contemplation's coral core.
Would you, too, judge us by our learning, virtues, discipline ?
Oh, tell me how then can I your Compassion's haven win ?

What shall I do ? Life's pleasures pall : oh, how to attain your
Grace,
Come, come but once and tell me, Love, how I may glimpse your
Face.
My joys, my world -- all I held dear -- I have left for your sake :
Asks Mira : "How can I now to others turn my thirst to slake ?"

........From HARK ! HIS FLUTE !.....By Dadaji, Dilip Kumar Roy

Mira, without any reading or meditation, had learnt by simple belief and faith that God is the most kind, merciful and compassionate and is the only eternl existence. Everything else perishes but He does not. So, she loved Him in every conceivable form and way and eventually merged with her Beloved.

Love,

Kumar.

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

That is so beautiful. I love Mira...her story is amazing. :)

[gdkumar]

"That is so beautiful. I love Mira...her story is amazing." :)
...............From SGB.
Hare Krishna!

Dear Nicole,

Truly Mirabai's life story is beautiful and amazing. Her love for Krishna knew no bounds. How such love grows or comes to one is a very big question. Probably this is what we call 'Prarabdha Samskar'(Culture developed or acquired over the past births) and we believe in rebirth. We can also say that she was born in the last millenium just as an avatar to show and tell us about true love or prem for Krishna or God.

We, ordinary folks, always tend to justify Lord Jesus, Krishna , Buddha and all other saints by their talks and deeds and we always love to raise questions.... why did He do this?, why did He do that?, why did He say like this?, why did He say like that.....why, why and why...endless questions! After that if we are satisfied with one of them then we say we like Him and we love Him. But we forget that our love in this case start with vichar and questions, so our love remains unstable at all times, sometimes it is less and sometimes it is more. This is called "Falling in love". I say, you fall in this type of love.

Mira's love was inborn, she had no doubts, no questions and no vichar. She looked up at the Lord with all her being inundated with love. Here she could never fall, only Krishna could fall in that inundation and He fell into it.

I only pray crying that we get at least some splash of that God-obliging love. That is the only invisible rope by which He can be pulled and be made visible.

Love ,

Kumar.

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

I only pray crying that we get at least some splash of that God-obliging love. That is the only invisible rope by which He can be pulled and be made visible.

Me too, my dear friend, me too.

[Bhaskar]

I am reminded of a beautiful song from the movie Narsi Bhagat...

Darashan Do Ghanashyam Nath Mori, A.Nkhiya.N Pyasi Re

Oh Dark Skinned Lord, come before me, my eyes thirst for you


Ma.Ndir Ma.Ndir Murat Teri
Phir Bhi Naa Dikhe Surat Teri
Yug Bite Na Ai Milan Ki
Puranamasi Re ...

Every temple has idols of you
but I still havent seen your face
yugas have passed yet
the hour of union hasn't come.

Dvar Daya Ka Jab Tu Khole
Pa.Ncham Sur Me.N Gu.Nga Bole
A.Ndha Dekhe La.Nga.Da Bhaage
Pahu.Nche Kasi Re ...

When you open the gates of your Grace
Even a mute's voice rings out in the fifth note
the blind sees, the cripple runs
and reaches Kasi...

Pani Pi Kar Pyas Bujhau.N
Naino.N Ko Kaise Samajhau.N
A.Nkh Michauli Chho.Do Ab
Man Ke Basi Re ...


I drink water to douse my thirst
but how can I pacify my eyes?
Do stop this game of hide-and-seek
O Mind-Dweller...

Niba.Rl Ke Bal Dhan Nidha.Rn Ke
Tum Rakh Vale Bhakt Jano.N Ke
Tere Bhajan Me.N Sab Sukh Pau.N
Mite Udasi Re ...

You are the strength of the weak and the wealth of the poor
you look after all devotees
in singing your glories I will gain all joy
sorrows will be wiped out.

Nam Jape Par Tujhe Na Jane
Unako Bhi Tu Apana Mane
Terii Daya Ka A.Nt Nahi.N Hai
He Dukh Nashi Re ...

Even those who repeat your name without knowing you
you take as one of your own.
There is no limit to your Grace
O Destroyer of Sorrow...

Aj Phaisala Tere Dvar Par
Meri Jit Hai Teri Har Par
Har Jit Hai Teri Mai.N To
Charan Upasi Re ...

Today there is a showdown at your gates
My victory is on your loss (the word har could mean both loss and garland)
In victory and loss I am but
a worshipper of your feet.

Dvar Kha.Da Kab Se Matavala
Ma.Nge Tum Se Har Tumhari
Narasi Ki Ye Binati Sunalo
Bhakt Vilasi Re ...

For so long I have stood at your gates
I ask you for your garland
Listen to this plea from Narsi (the poet's name)
O home of all devotees...

Laj Na Lut Jaye Prabhu Teri
Nath Karo Na Daya Me.N Deri
Tin Lok Chho.D Kar Ao
Ga.Nga Nivasi Re ...

Lord, may you not be shamed
Don't delay in showing your Grace
Leave the 3 worlds and come
O Ganga Dweller...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

This song always moves me so much. You can hear an mp3 of it at http://www.musicindiaonline.com/l/17/s/movie_name.1457/

[BlackBillBlake]

Since it's poetry time still, I couldn't let it pass without including something from the master bard himself.


Sonnet CXLIV(146).

Poor soul, the centre of my sinful earth,
Fooled by these rebel powers that thee array;
Why dost thou pine within and suffer dearth,
Painting thy outward walls so costly gay?
Why so large cost, having so short a lease,
Dost thou upon thy fading mansion spend?
Shall worms, inheritors of this excess,
Eat up thy charge? is this thy body's end?
Then soul, live thou upon thy servant's loss,
And let that pine to aggravate thy store;
Buy terms divine in selling hours of dross;
Within be fed, without be rich no more:
So shalt thou feed on Death, that feeds on men,
And Death once dead, there's no more dying then.

William Shakespeare.

[gdkumar]

Dear BBB and Bhaskar,

Thanks for the wonderful two pieces.


Love,
kumar

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

A very good quote:

"Men may partition their lands by measuring rods and boundary lines, but no one can so partition the all-embracing sky overhead. The sky surrounds all and includes all. So the unenlightened man in his ignorance says that his religion is the only true one and that it is the best. But when his heart is illumined by the light of true knowledge, he comes to know that above all these wars of secand creeds is the one Existance-Knowledge-Bliss"- Sayings of Ramakrishna No. 474
---
Or two:

"A man wanted to cross a river. A sage gave him an amulet and said, "This will carry you across." The man, taking it in his hand, began to walk over the water. Before he had gone half the way, he seized with curiosity, and opened the amulet to see what what was in it. Therein he found, written on a piece of paper, the sacred name of Rama, the Lord. At this the man said depreciatingly, "Is this the whole secret?" No sooner did this scepticism enter his mind than he sand down. It is faith in the name of the Lord that works wonders; for faith is life and want of faith is death."- Sayings of Sri Ramakrishna, no. 506

[gdkumar]

Hare Krishna!

Dear Nicole,

Thank you for those two gems from Thakur Sri Ramakrishna Paramahansa.
Please read such unique teachings more and give them to all of us through the pages of the Hipforums, Philosophy and Religion threads. This is one of the best services that you can offer to your beloved God. No doubt about that.

Love,

Kumar.

[gdkumar]

Hare Krishna!

Dear ChiefCowPie,

Where are you ? Please come back soon. You are being missed by all of us here.

Pray for your well-being.

Love,

Kumar.

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

More quotes:

"We are responsible for what we are, and whatever we wish ourselves to be, we have" the power to make ourselves. If what we are now has been the result of our own past actions, it certainly follows that whatever we wish to be in the future can be produced by our present actions; so we have to know how to act."~Swami Vivekananda

"Removing the incurable cancer called hatred
Reveals one's undying, undiminishing radiance.

The destruction of hatred, that sorrow of sorrows,
Yields to man the joy of joys. " -Tirukkural 86: 853-54

[gdkumar]

Hare Krishna!

Dear Nicole,

Those are wonderful. Thank you for the beautiful quotes.

Love,

Kumar.

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

No problem...they are from this cute little book I found in the library one day when I was browsing called The Wisdom of Hinduism :)

"The soul is without beginning and without end. Immersed in one's Soul one should move and act without giving way to wrath, without giving in to joy, and always free from envy. Cutting the knots in one's heart one should live happily without giving way to grief and with one's doubts dispelled."- Mahabharata XII 149

[gdkumar]

Hare Krishna!

Dear SGB,

That's beautiful, thank you.

Love,
Kumar.

[gdkumar]

Hare Krishna!

Dear all ,

Here are a few conversations(Questions and answers) between the devotees and the great saint,sage and Brahma-jnani Mahayogi Swami Sivananda. Hope, you you will find them interesting and very helpful. Many questions in many minds will be answered by them. Here it is.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Q. What are the signs that indicate that the Mantra(Japa) is really benefiting the Sadhaka ?
A. The Sadhaka who practises Mantra-yoga will feel the presence of the Lord at all times. He will feel the Divine Ecstasy and holy thrill in the heart. He will possess all Divine qualities. He will have a pure mind and a pure heart. He will feel horripilation. He will shed tears of Prema. He will have holy communion with the Lord.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Q. Do I have enough capacity to be enlightened by a Mantra?
A. Yes. Have perfect unshakable faith in the effiociency of a Mantra. A Mantra is filled with countless divine potencies. Repeat it constantly. You will be endowed with capacity, inner spiritual strength and will power. The Mantra-cgaitanya will be awakened by constant repetition. You will get illumination.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Q. May I know if mental Japa is more powerful than the practice of chanting of a Mantra loudly?
A. Mental Japa is indeed more powerful. When mental Japa is successfully practised all worldly extraneous thoughts drop off quickly. In Vaikhari and Upamsu-Japa, there is scope for the mind to have its own ways. The tongue may be repeating the Mantra but the mind may be busy with other thoughts. Mental Japa closes the avenues, though worldly thoughts may try to enter the mind. In other words, the trap-door through which thoughts enter the mental factory is closed when the mantra is being repeated. The mind is filled with the power of the Mantra. But you should be vigilant and prevent sleep from overpowering the mind. Desires, sleep and various sensual thoughts obstruct the successful performance of mental Japa. Regular practice, sincere attempt, sleepless vigilance and earnestness can bring complete success in mental Japa.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Q. What is the meaning of feeling(Bhava) when one does Japa of a Mantra?
A. He who repeats a Mantra should entertain either the Dasya-Bhava (Attitude of a servant) or Sishya-Bhava(Attitude of a disciple) or Putra-Bhava (Attitude of a son) while doing Japa. He can also have the feeling of a friend, an offspring or of a husband in regard to the Lord.
He should have also the feeling or mental attitude that the Lord is seated in his heart , that sattva or purity is flowing to him from the Lord, that the Mantra purifies his heart, destroys desires, cravings and evil thoughts, when he does Japa.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Q. If we do Japa of a Mantra without understanding its meaning or in a hurry, will it have any bad reaction on the person who does?
A. It cannot have any bad reaction but the spiritual progress will be slow when the Mantra is repeated in a hurry-burry without Bhava or faith. Even when any Mantra is repeated unconsciously or hurriedly without Bhava, without understanding its meaning, it undoubtedly produces beneficial results, just as fire burns inflammable objects when they are brought near.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

..........All from JAPA YOGA by Swami Sivananda.
(A Divine Life Society Publication)

Love,

Kumar.

[gdkumar]

Hare Krishna!

Dear all,

Hope you will like the following, which we can read from Japa Yoga by Swami Sivananda :

Sant Kabir says: "If anyone utters 'Rama' 'Rama' even in dream, I would like to make for his daily use a pair of shoes out of my skin." Who can describe the glory of God's sacred Name? Who can really comprehend the greatness and splendour of the holy Names of God? Even Parvati, the consort of Lord Siva failed to describe in adequate terms the grandeur and true significance of God's Name. When one sings His Name or hears it sung, he is unconsciously raised to sublime spiritual heights. He loses his body- consciousness. He is immersed in joy. He drinks the divine nectar of immortality. He gets divine intoxication. Repetition of God's Name enables the devotee to feel the divine presence, the divine glory, the divine cosciousness within himself and also everywhere. How sweet is Hari's Name! How powerful is the Name of the Lord! How much joy, peace and strength His Name brings to one who repeats it! Blessed indeed are those who repeat God's Name, for they will be free from the wheel of birth and death and will attain Immortality!


Love,

Kumar

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

Dearest Kumar,

Hare Krishna!

Thank you for the two wonderful readings about japa...it is quite ironic because last night my mother and I were at the warehouse store and there was a picture book about Islam and I just skimmed through it because I was curious and one of the last pages had a list of the thousands of names of the Lord in that culture/religion alone...and then I read your two posts about the Divine Names of the Lord and it made me think about that and last night wanting to compile one giant list of all the Names of the Lord in all the cultures of the world... :)

So thank you for reminding me...and of course for the beauty and wisdom of these two pieces that is different from what I was just talking about. :)

*Peace and Love*
Nicole

[Bhaskar]

Goswami Tulsidasji gives extensive attention to the importance of nama in his Ramacharitmanas and other works. In one place he says that Rama's name is even greater than Lord Rama, for Lord Rama may have personally enlightened some people during his lifetime, but the repetition of the name has led to the divinization of countless people.

In a beautiful story in Srimad Bhagawatam, one Ajamil, who was a good man, sees a young man sporting with a prostitute. The image sticks in his mind and he is unable to get rid of it. Eventually he also goes to the prostitute, ends up falling in love with her and marries her, continuing to live his life in the pursuit of physical pleasure alone and ends up losing all spiritual inclinations and being consumed by his desire.

One day a sage was visiting the village where he lived and some prankster told him that Ajamil's house was a good place for himt o be accomodated. So the saint went there and they let him stay with them for a while. However, he soon sensed that there was something wrong in the home.

Seeing their young child, he asked its mother what the baby was named. The mother told him that it had not yet been named and asked the rishi to suggest a name for him. So the saint named the child Narayana, thinking that at least that way the Lord's name would be said in the house.

As the child grew up, Aamil developed a strong and deep love for him and was greatly attached to his son. Finally, one night, he lay in bed, when the henchmen of Yama, the god of death, came to take Ajamil. Seeing them, he was terrified and called out to his son,"Narayana!! Narayana!!!" Hearing him uttering the Lord's name at the time of death, the servants of Vishnu came from Vaikuntha and drove away Yama's minions and saved Ajamil.

In Vaikuntha, someone asked Lord Vishnu, "hagawan, it is well known that someone who repeats your name at the time of death is saved and liberated. However, this Ajamil, who lived his whole life in sin, called out to hs son, not to you. He did not know it was your name. Yet, you saved him. Is that not unfair?"

The lotus-eyed lord smiled gently. He said, "Ajamil may not know that Narayana is my name, he may have been thinking of his son only. However, I know that it is my name. When my name is called, I respond, it is a natural tendency. When you hear someone call your name, do you stop to think of whether it is you they are calling, or if it is someone else of the same name? You just turn and respond to them!"

Thus we see, whether knowingly or unknowingly, if we call out the lord's name, it brings us nothing but good.

Om tat sat.

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

Thank you for sharing this lovely story Bhaskar! :)

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

Ok....a week or two ago I bought a charm for a necklace of the symbol "AUM" to where next to the cross my mother bought me...well ever since I've been wearing it it has gotten so much attention...when I am in school a few times per week for the last two weeks that I've had it people have come up to me and asked, "What is on your necklace?" and/or "Isn't that an Aum? What does it mean?"...and its almost like a blessing that I can talk about God to others because of this necklace...people have even asked me how to write Aum because I have written it on my notebooks during class....its really awesome that such a sacred symbol is drawing so much attention and spreading its meaning. :) Just felt like sharing. :)

[Bhaskar]

Om is a symbol natually attractive to everyone, since it is the written manifestation of the innermost music in us all.

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

Om is a symbol natually attractive to everyone, since it is the written manifestation of the innermost music in us all.:) lol...I took my friend Tim home today... and before he left my car he goes, "When did you get an Aum necklace...its so cool"...I had to smile and think about my post yesterday...lol. :)

[ChiefCowpie]

aum sweet aum

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

aum sweet aum
:) So nice to see you ChiefCowpie. :) Hare Krishna! :)

[gdkumar]

Hare Krishna!

Dear SGB,

Thank you for the two beautiful pieces on your necklace marked AUM and about Tim. Such informations are always very encouraging.

Love,

Kumar.

[gdkumar]

Hare Krishna!

Dear Bhaskar,

Thank you for the beautiful story of Ajamil. That is the greatness of God's Name.

Love,

Kumar.

[gdkumar]

"aum sweet aum"
........From ChiefCowpie



Hare Krishna!

Dear Chief,

Like Nicole and all others I am also so happy and relieved to see you back on these pages.

Hari Om! Sweet AUM !

Love,

Kumar.

[Bhaskar]

Dear Kumar,

Thank you for obsessively thanking every single poster for every single post.

Jai Ramji Ki!

Bhaskar

[gdkumar]

"Dear Kumar,

Thank you for obsessively thanking every single poster for every single post.

Jai Ramji Ki!

Bhaskar"



Hare Krishna!

Dear Bhaskar,

Thank you for your very interesting post.

Well, I do thank for every single post, at least try not to miss any. Is this an obsession ? I am not sure but definitely I try to form the habit of thanking for anything good or bad that happens to me or crosses my path. That is to acknowledge Him in each and everything. That is to try to thank Him in my every breath. Still I am not really successful to remeber Him and thank Him for everything.

Today was a very difficult and trying day for me, I was tensed and worried the night before. In the morning I got up and very surprisingly the first guest we received in the morning was Swami Amritananda from my Guruji's Ashram. It was surprising because He always comes on Sundays(Once in two/three months) after telling us on phone. This time(Today) He came on a Saturday and without any notice. Immediately I sensed something, I knew now, there was nothing to worry about and really whole day passed off very peacefully. But it was supposed to be a real bad and dangerous day for me. So, in the evening I was very happy, it was morning in the U.S.A. I found some of you on line and immediately I dropped a line " Good morning, nice to see you on line". Suddenly, being relieved, everything became good in my mind and eyes.

Here I failed. Was it any different day, good or bad in particular? No, it was just like any other day under the same sky and the sun. But my interests made it a different day altogether. Today I thanked and wished all specially.

I only hope and pray that my Lord, my Guru will take care to remove all my ignorance in the subtle but sure way to appreciate the darkest and brightest things in the same light of knowledge that nothing is without Him and that all come from Him.

Jai Sri Ramji Ki !

Love,

Kumar.

[BlackBillBlake]

Dear Kumar,


I'm sure many people find your responses to their posts here very heartening, and always filled with warmth and with light. :sunglasse

Hare Krishna!

[gdkumar]

Hare Krishna !

Dear BlackBillBlake,

Thank you for your kind post.

Love,

Kumar.

[gdkumar]

Hare Krishna !

Dear all,

The following is the translation of a Bengali song composed by Dadaji on one Janmastami day hailing the Divine Advent. The translation was also done by Dadaji.This is from "THE ROUNDING OFF"....By Dadaji, Dilip Kumar Roy. Hope, you will like it.

INVOCATION

"Come, play Thy Flute of flame, my Lord, and set our hearts
athrill :
We know not how to worship Thee nor how to do Thy will.
We can but pray in our vale of tears : 'Reveal to us Thy Face
And answer our desolate appeal with Thy song's tenderness.
With Thy divine compassion's rain
Reply and charm away our pain.
"In midnight gloom flash with Thy golden dawn our earth
to bless
And help us conquer destiny with Thy deep bounty's Grace.
Kindle Thy light - with Thine inviolate dance our din repeal :
Lead derelict hope with Thy star-melody -- our sorrows heal
Make stricken souls turn in delight
To Thy Love's sun - redeem our night."

Love,

Kumar.

[gdkumar]

Hare Krishna !

Dear all ,

The following is a letter to a devotee (Bani) from Ma, Indira Devi. This letter is one of the best that I have so far read in this relevance and is very very dear to me. This, everytime I read, reminds me of Her...sitting at Her feet ............
By presenting this to all I am doing my Pranam at Her lotus feet.
All aspirants please spare some time and read this patiently.

Poona
February,1969

Bani dear,

It is a blessing that you are not well -versed in the " Science" of meditation. Love Him, my child; nothing else is necessary. Every time I go to the temple I say : "Thakur! I have come! I have come to see you for half-an-hour and say 'Thank you'. For this half-an-hour I am all yours. Please accept me as I am. If my mind is restless, let it wander about where it will, but I sit here at your feet. I have come with all my impurities - all my flaws - all my difficulties. It would have been better if I could have controlled my mind, purified my being and sorted out the tangled threads of life before coming to you - but where is the time? It will take me ages and even then I may fail. So, I have brought them all to you. If you think it necessary, remove them - destroy them. But for this half-an-hour I am yours - unconditionally. I ask for nothing - make no bargain - register no complaint."

Sometimes I go to Him with joy in my heart and this joy I offer to Him in gratitude - for it is His. Like a gardener who picks the day's crop of fruits and flowers and brings them to the Master, I bring the fruits of my samskars to Him. It cannot always be the same. The Master gave me the plot of life and the seeds of love to sow it with. He also showered His Grace, but the tilling had to be done by me - and I know I am not a good gardener. I forget to sow and forget to harvest. Many a time the rains find me sleeping - but,nonetheless I am His servant so He bears my losses and smiles on my efforts even though they are half-hearted. Isn't it wonderful?

Sometimes I wend to Him weary and tired. Even then, I say : "Thakur I have come to you - here are my woes and my aches -here are the tangled threads of my life's tapestry. Please, hold my burden - and disentangle the skeins - while I sit and look at you - and say : 'Thank you-for being Here-waiting-for me to come. Thank you, Thakur.' "

With all my love,

Didi(Ma Indira)



Love,
Kumar

[Bhaskar]

Kumarji...

Atisundar.

[gdkumar]

Hare Krishna!

Dear Bhaskar,

Thanks again for your kind post.

Love,

Kumar.

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

Dearest Kumar,

Thank you for both the song and the letter....both are stunningly beautiful. :) Thank you again for sharing with us. :) :)

Hare Krishna! :)

*Peace and Love*
Nicole

[gdkumar]

Hare Krishna!

Dear SGB,

Thanks for your kind post.

Mother Indira's letter suggests that true love is more important than routine and disciplined practices.

Love,

Kumar.

[gdkumar]

Hare Krishna!

Dear all,

Here is a unique teaching from St.Therese of Lisieux. It is from the "Pearls of Wisdom" by M.Susan Lautenbach. I am sincerely grateful to BlackBillBlake who kindly sent the book to me.

PRAYER

" How great is the power of prayer!
To be heard, it is not necessary to read from a
book some beautiful formula composed
for the occasion. There are so many of them
it really gives me a headache and each prayer
is more beautiful than the others. For me, prayer
is an aspiration of the heart : it is a simple glance
directed to heaven, a cry of gratitude and love
in the midst of trial as well as joy."

"What do I say to Jesus? I don't say anything,
I love Him."

"Sometimes I would try to fish with my little line,
but I preferred to go alone and sit on the grass
bedecked with flowers....Without knowing what it
was to meditate, my soul was absorbed in real prayer."


Dear devotees, is it not wonderful?

Love,

Kumar.

[gdkumar]

Hare Krishna!

Dear friends,

I am under the entrancing spell of St. Therese's words and teachings. Here are two more wonderful messages.

(1)
Garden of Souls

"Jesus has been gracious enough to teach me a
lesson about the mystery of the differences in
souls, simply by holding up to my eyes, the
book of nature. I understood how all the flowers God
created are beautiful - how the splendour of the rose
and the whiteness of the lily do not take away from
the perfume of the violet or the simplicity of the
daisy. I understood that if all flowers wanted to be
roses , nature would lose her springtime beauty,
and the fields would no longer be decked out
with little wildflowers.

And so it is in world of souls...Jesus' garden.
HE willed to create great soulscomparable to lilies and
roses, but He created smaller ones as well...and these
must be content to be daisies or violets destined to give
joy to God's glances, when He looks down at His feet.
Perfection consists in doing God's will...in being what
He would have us be."

(2)

Spirituality of Everyday Life

"Jesus has no need of books or teachers to instruct
souls; He teaches without the noise of words.
Never have I heard Him speak, but I feel He
is within me at each moment. He is guiding and
inspiring me with what I must say and do.
I find, just when I need them, certain lights that
I had not seen until then, and it isn't
most frequently during the hours of
prayer that these are most abundant,
but rather in the midst of my daily occupations."

Dear friends, it is wonderful! Isn't it so?

Love,

Kumar.

[BlackBillBlake]

Dear Kumar,


Thanks so much for sharing with all the wonderful and inspiring words of Saint Therese. I will perhaps post some more of the same here in the near future.

Love,

BBB.

[gdkumar]

Hare Krishna!

Dear BBB,

That photograph of Saint Therese is just wonderful, thank you!


Love,

Kumar.