hare krishna

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

A friend of mine shared this with me:

Oh born of Moslem parents Haridas!
And trained in youth in Moslem creed
Thy noble heart to Vaishnava truth did pass
Thy holy acts thy candor plead!

Is there a soul that cannot learn from thee
That man must give up sect for God
That thoughts of race and sect can ne'er agree
With what they call Religion broad

Thy love of God and brother soul alone
Bereft thyself of early friends
Thy softer feelings oft to kindness prone
Led on thyself for higher ends!

I weep to read that Kazis and their men
Oft persecuted thee, alas!
But thou didst nobly pray for th' wicked then!
For thou wert Vaishnava Haridas!

And God is boundless grace to thee, Oh man!
United thee to one who came
To save the fallen souls from Evil's plan
Of taking human souls to shame

And He it was who led you all that came
For life eternal, holy, pure!
And gave you rest in Heaven's endearing Name
And sacred blessings ever sure!

Thy body rests upon the sacred sands
Of Svargardvar near the sea,
Oh, hundreds come to thee from distant lands
T' enjoy a holy, thrilling glee!

The waters roar and storming winds assail
Thy ears in vain, ah, Vaishnava soul!
The charms of Vrindavan thy heart regale,
Unknown the wheel of time doth roll!

He reasons ill who tells that Vaishnavas die
When thou art living still in sound
The Vaishnavas die to live and living try
To spread the holy name around!

Now let the candid man that seeks to live
Follow thy way on shores of time,
Then posterity sure to him will give
Like one song in simple rhyme!

Srila Saccidananda Bhaktivinoda Thakura... 'Thakura Haridasa'

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

Wow...1000 posts...I didn't notice until BBB mentioned it to me...


http://www.designerspirit.com/w-krishna/w-the%20music%20of%20krishna%20a.jpg
http://ashram.ru/places/vaishnavism/img/radha-krishna.jpg
http://www.gopala.com/jesus/krishna.jpg
http://www.hknet.org.nz/krishna-colage.jpg

By Krishna's grace...I hope we can reach 1000 more! :) :)

Hare Krishna! :) :)

[ChiefCowpie]

http://www.ghantasala.info/classic_movies/karj.html (http://www.ghantasala.info/classic_movies/karj.html)

"The famous scene of Krishna appeasing an aggrieved Satyabhama. Satyabhama is annoyed that Krishna visited Rukmini first, and retreats to her room. Krishna follows her in, and tries to apologize with the beautiful number "Aligithiva Sakhee Priya". Satyabhama was having none of this, and kicks Krishna's crown off. Far from being offended, Krishna suggests that he is more worried about her leg getting hurt by touching his harsh crown in the padyam "Nanu Bhavadeeya". "

Attached Image
http://www.gaudiyadiscussions.com/uploads/post-45-1096013798.jpg

[ChiefCowpie]

http://www.gaudiyadiscussions.com/uploads/post-45-1096375740.jpg (http://www.gaudiyadiscussions.com/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=25383)

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Raama laali megha syaama laali taamarasa netra raaja tanaya laali

[BlackBillBlake]

Sankirtan Yoga

By



Sri Swami Sivananda



Sankirtan is the Svarupa (essential nature) of God. Dhvani is Sankirtan. Sankirtan is the essence of the Vedas. The four Vedas originate from sound. There are four kinds of sound, viz., Vaikhari (vocal), Madhyama (from the throat), Pasyanti (from the heart) and Para (from the navel). Sound originates from the navel. Vedas also originates from the navel. Sankirtan and Vedas are born from the same source.



People sit together and sing the names of the Lord with harmony and concord, and with Suddha or Divine Bhava (feeling). This is Sankirtan. Sankirtan is accompanied by the play of musical sounds as the word 'San' precedes 'kirtan.' Sankirtan is an exact science. It elevates the mind quickly and intensifies the Bhava or divine feeling to a maximum degree.



Nama and Nami are inseparable. Nama means Name (Name of God). Nami means 'that which is denoted by the Nama or Name'. Nama is greater than the Nami. Even in worldly experience the man dies but his name is remembered for a long time. Kalidasa, Valmiki, Tulsidas, etc., are remembered even today. Nama is nothing but Chaitanya. Sankirtan is singing God's name with Bhava, Prem or divine feeling.



Sankirtan Yoga is the easiest, quickest, safest, cheapest and best way for attaining God-realization in this age. People cannot practice severe austerities now-a-days. They do not have the strength of will to practice Hatha Yoga. They cannot maintain perfect life-long Brahmacharya. They do not have the prerequisites for Raja Yoga. They are not endowed with the keen intellect necessary for Jnana Yoga or Vedantic Sadhana. But this Sankirtan Yoga or the Yoga of Singing Lord's Names is within the reach of all.



There is infinite Sakti or power in the Lord's Names. It will remove all impurities from your mind. Vedantins say that there are three kinds of obstacles to Self-realization - Mala, Vikshepa and Avarana. To remove them they prescribe Nishkamya Karma (selfless service), Upasana (worship) and Vedantic Nididhyasana (intellectual enquiry). This Sankirtan alone can achieve all these together. Sankirtan removes the impurities of the mind (Mala); it steadies the mind and checks its tendency to vacillate (Vikshepa); and ultimately it tears the veil of ignorance too (Avarana), and brings the Sadhaka (aspirant) face to face with God.



Maya is so powerful that she deludes you every moment. Every moment she makes you feel that there is pleasure only in the sense-objects and nowhere else. You mistake pain for pleasure. This is the work of Maya. Beware. Remember Janma-mrityu-jara-vyadhi-duhkha-dosha, - this world is full of the pains of birth, death, old age, disease and misery. There is no pleasure in these finite objects. Yo Vai Bhuma Tat Sukham. You can have Bliss in the Infinite alone. Sankirtan will enable you to realize this Infinite here and now. Sankirtan will save you from Maya, from delusion. Therefore sing the Names of the Lord always.

Let us, therefore, sing the Maha Mantra:

Hare Krishna Hare Krishna

Krishna Krishna Hare Hare.

Hare Rama Hare Rama

Rama Rama Hare Hare.

This is the great Mantra which is specially meant for the people of Kali Yuga (this modern age of destruction) . Narada went to Lord Brahma and said: "O Lord, the people of Kail Yuga will not be able to practice austerities, nor to perform the Yajnas (sacrifices), nor to pursue the path of Vedanta. Kindly have mercy on them and tell me some easy way by which they can attain God." Lord Brahma in His Supreme Compassion and Mercy gave this Maha Mantra by repeating which people of the Kali Yuga will attain Self-realization. Therefore, sing the Lord's Names; serve, love, give, meditate, realize; be good and do good (this is the essence of all scriptures); be kind and be compassionate; enquire "Who am I ?", know the Self and be free. May God bless you all with health, long life, peace, prosperity and Eternal Bliss.

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

Thanks for that BBB! :)


I love sankirtain most of all. :) I am a music person and there's something moving and wonderful about singing the maha mantra... :) :)

Hare Krishna!

[BlackBillBlake]

Thanks for that BBB! http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif


I love sankirtain most of all. http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif I am a music person and there's something moving and wonderful about singing the maha mantra... http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif

Hare Krishna!Dear SGB,

Music is indeed a very powerful thing, and it can up-lift the consciousness like few other things. Sankirtan combines all this,and turns it toward Krishna, God.

It can be a very powerful experience. And a blissful one!

Hare Krishna! http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif

[ChiefCowpie]

http://www.atributetohinduism.com/images/elephant_state.jpg

Hare Krishna, support elephant power so we don't have to unnecesarily burn fossil fuels

[ChiefCowpie]

http://www.gaudiyadiscussions.com/uploads/post-45-1096559623.jpg

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anu’nga ennaip pirivu Seidu Ayar pADi kavarndu uNNum
kuNu’ngu nARik kuTTERRai gOvardhananaik kaNDIrE?

Did you happen to see that young bull, the hero of Govardhana, who made me suffer by leaving me alone?- The one has completely taken over Vrindavana, is enjoying every bit of it, smells of butter all the time, and loves looking after the cows?

[ChiefCowpie]

"Manasi Ganga, Gobardhana
(Here Krishna held the mountain aloft on his finger)"

From: Braj / The Vaishnava Holy Land, J.E. Scott, 1906.

Attached Image
http://www.gaudiyadiscussions.com/uploads/post-31-1084827197.jpg

[ChiefCowpie]

http://www.cmp.caltech.edu/~mcc/India/Khajaraho/Khajaraho_20.jpg

Khajaraho

[ChiefCowpie]

Varshana

Attached Image
http://www.gaudiyadiscussions.com/uploads/post-45-1087937127.jpg


--------------------
Shaped through and through by Gaura's love--
that is a Gaudiya Vaishnav.

[ChiefCowpie]

Varshana is the birthplace of Srimat Radharhani and the home of her parents.

[ChiefCowpie]

http://utenti.lycos.it/aum/kundalini/dasavatar/krsna7.jpg

[ChiefCowpie]

Sri Ramacandra

Attached Image (Click thumbnail to expand)
http://www.gaudiyadiscussions.com/uploads/post-45-1095218193.jpg (http://www.gaudiyadiscussions.com/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=24163)

[ChiefCowpie]

Krsna is weighing Radhika against a batch of jewels!

Attached Image (Click thumbnail to expand)
http://www.gaudiyadiscussions.com/uploads/post-45-1096057383.jpg (http://www.gaudiyadiscussions.com/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=25239)


--------------------
\ ---------olo AmarA rAiera dAsI !---------- \
AmarA rAiera dAsI AmarA rAiera sevA bhAlovAsi

[BlackBillBlake]

More beautiful images Chief Cowpie :) Thanks. Just looking at some of those photos shows the beauty and harmony human beings can create here on earth - it doesn't have to be the concrete jungle! It all depends on working in harmony with God and with nature.

The west too produced its treasures of religious architecture - I've seen some of the great cathedrals of France and Italy as well as England, and they are awe inspiring. The modern world is interested only in utility from its builings, or some kind of 'fad of the moment'. In the past, in India, and throughout the east and west, there was a wholly different set of criterea. A great temple or church should reflect the beauty, majesty and harmony of the Divine. It should harmonize with the natural landscape - above all, it must be a thing of beauty, a place capable of inspiring a true feeling of God's presence.


Hare Krishna!

[sleeping jiva]

this is the most popular religion and philosophy on hipforums!
:):):):)
Hare Krishna!!!

[BlackBillBlake]

this is the most popular religion and philosophy on hipforums!
http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gifhttp://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gifhttp://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gifhttp://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif
Hare Krishna!!!And its thanks to you Sleeping Jiva for starting the thread in the beginning - to all those who have posted here - esp. GD Kumar. Chief Cowpie and Svg Grdn Beauty - and above all their Lordships Sri Sri Radha- Krishna !! http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif

Hare Krishna!

[BlackBillBlake]

In 2003 I went with some friends to the Big Green Gathering , one of the best of English festivals, and quite a large event ( as the name implies!). It had rained for about four days prior to the event, and huge areas including most of what would have been paths, had turned to deep and sticky mud.

But anyway, as usual at these large uk events, ISKCON were there with a big marquee tent, doing some kirtan, giving out prasada, and selling books and inscense etc. On our wanderings around the site, my friend and I stopped by to ask about when exactly prasada would be ready, and when there would be some chanting. We were asked to return at around seven in the evening. Meanwhile, there was a darkening sky, and the threat of further rain to come.

Later on, we were making our way over a large and wet expanse of field on our way back to the Krishna tent in time to get some prasada. As we approached, I noticed that a very long queue had formed, and the wind was getting up, blowing in a cold but light drizzle. I suddenly began to laugh quite loudly. My friend asked me to let him in on the joke, but it took me a moment or so.

‘It just struck me as very funny – a kind of cosmic joke; all these folks queuing up, life after life to get prasada – Krishna’s mercy – for some reason I thought one day they’ll get sick and tired of standing in line in a wet, muddy field, to fill their stomachs, and actually take some notice of Krishna!’ I went on ‘ I’d bet you that most of these people will just grab the free food, and that’s that – some will hear the Mantra if they hang around here to eat it, but a lot will be straight back to the beer! But Krishna isn’t in a hurry – He’s got plenty of time….a seed might be planted in someone…’

My friend laughed ‘Your probably right’.

We joined the queue, received prasada, and went in to the tent to listen to the chanting which was about to begin. We remained there for some time and I was carried quite high by the Kirtan.

On leaving the tent, I walked straight into someone I hadn’t seen for a number of years, an ex-devotee, with whom at one time, I had some business association. After the initial greetings were over, he gestured towards the devotees inside the marquee on the low stage ‘They haven’t changed the tune for twenty f*****g years man!’

At once I knew that this was some kind of indicator – but of what? For one thing, I wished I’d not bumped into J, whilst at the same time I was happy to see him! I could see he had changed, and when he made the silly comment about the tune of the Mantra, it just rang so hollow – like here is someone who has erected major barricades against Krishna’s grace. The whole tone in which he said it belied a kind of insincerity, almost a feeling that this was just some ‘bravado’, meant to impress. But looking at it now, I think that it is another unfortunate result of the false ‘guru’ scam in ISKCON. J was a disciple previously of one of the eleven so called successors to Srila Prabhupada. I know that when his guru fell down, it was a traumatic thing, and the negative experience has obviously had its consequences. But I also know that inside, J is still a devotee of Krishna. My heart tells me this is so, and so does my intuition, based on what was on the surface a critical remark, but one that couldn’t quite be articulated in such a way as to be at all convincing – at least not to me .It was pronounced in a tone almost of defeat…. These insights come when one is around the whole ‘Krishna energy field’ if I can put it like that.

We parted, agreeing tentatively to meet up again or exchange phone calls.

Over the next three days I went for kirtan for about an hour each evening, and it was very good. My friend whom I mentioned before claimed that he’d experienced the Mantra ‘in the heart’ for the first time during one of these sessions.

And there, I think, lies the key to J’s difficulty. Once one has this experience ‘in the heart’ it’s very difficult to persuade the mind that its no good, or Krishna is unreal or whatever. Something deeper is at work in us, and really, it is our own best interest to accept in a spirit of devotion.

J will return to Krishna one day, I’m sure – because, like all of us, he’s never really been separated!

So, despite all the problems, and the false spiritual masters, ISKCON do still do good in at least promoting the Mantra, and giving people in general the chance to experience Kirtan. Not to mention the food……



Sorry if this is just a bit of a ramble…….:)



Hare Krishna!

[sleeping jiva]

oh yeah! Man, ramble? hardly! the story was great. I like to read personal stories, cuz I know you from here and it's very pleasurable (is it a word? haha). I used to curse a lot too and when my friends, whom I haven't seen for years write me and they curse it seems as thought they were monsters, haha. they're quite scary. but as you said, it's hard to get rid of Krishna consciousness. I would do it immediately, cuz I'm so much enslaved by maya, that my senses would manipulated me had I had an alternative, but there's no other alternative. Nothing can be compared to Krishna consciousness and the pleasure you get from it. thanks BBB, your stories are good.



everybody check this, I've bumped into some Hare Krishna videos online stream. Quality is not that good, but if you wanna see Prabhupada go here:

http://64.93.28.242:1100/56KMpegView0.htm

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

Ooo...thanks for the videos SleepingJiva...I'll check 'em out when I'm more awake to actually take them in...lol...

Thanks for the story BBB. :) It does indeed seem that once you have experienced Krishna Consciousness...you can never totally leave it...its always there somewhere...isn't it in a book or a lecture that Prabhupada says something about every little bit counts...like even if you only become KC for a split second in this lifetime you will ultimately benifit from it....or something like that...I don't know...lol...I need some sleep.... 17 hours of marching band has wiped me out...so good night all. :):) Hare Krishna!

[BlackBillBlake]

Here are two of the songs of MiraBai (c. 1498-c. 1546). These poems are in the form of devotional song known as pada.

Rama Nama Rasa Pijai

Drink the nectar of the Divine Name, O human! Drink the nectar of the Divine Name!
Leave the bad company, always sit among righteous company. Hearken to the mention of God (for your own sake).
Concupiscence, anger, pride, greed, attachment: wash these out of your consciousness.
Mira's Lord is the Mountain-Holder, the suave lover. Soak yourself in the dye of His color.

Priceless Gift.

I have found, yes, I have found the wealth of the Divine Name's gem.
My true guru gave me a priceless thing. With his grace, I accepted it.
I found the capital of my several births; I have lost the whole rest of the world.
No one can spend it, no one can steal it. Day by day it increases one and a quarter times.
On the boat of truth, the boatman was my true guru. I came across the ocean of existence.
Mira's Lord is the Mountain-Holder, the suave lover, of whom I merrily, merrily sing.

Hare Krishna!

[BlackBillBlake]

'The Mountain Holder'

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

He looks like a cute little kid who is teasing his friends... sort of like, "I'll bet you 10 bucks I can hold up this mountain with one finger..."
Friend: "No you can't"
Krishna: "See told you so..." with that cute mischievious smile...

I know that's not the story...but that's what His face makes me think of when I see the picture...its so cute. :)

[sleeping jiva]

hahaha. yes. I think He was like that, teasing and having fun.

[BlackBillBlake]

:) Jai Mirabai !

Here's another of her songs.

Holi Raining Colours of Bhakti.

The saffron of virtue and contentment
Is dissolved in the water-gun of love and affection.
Pink and red clouds of emotion are flying about,
Limitless colors raining down.
All the covers of the earthen vessel of my body are wide open;
I have thrown away all shame before the world.
Mira's Lord is the Mountain-Holder, the suave lover.
I sacrifice myself in devotion to His lotus feet.

Hare Krishna!

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

Oh BBB...that's soo beautiful...

I love Mirabai...gdkumar had sent me a few of her songs awhile ago...

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

http://www.metmuseum.org/Works_of_Art/images/is/images/is28.63.1.L.jpg (http://www.metmuseum.org/Works_of_Art/viewOnezoom.asp?dep=14&zoomFlag=1&viewmode=0&item=28%2E63%2E1)

Krishna holding Mount Govardhan, ca. 1590–95; Mughal period (1526-1858)
India
Ink, colors and gold on paper; H. 11 3/8 in. x W. 7 7/8 in. (28.9 x 20 cm)
Purchase, Edward C. Moore Jr. Gift, 1928 (28.63.1)
Metropolitan Museum of Art
New York, NY

[BlackBillBlake]

Sri Ramakrishna says, “Nothing is impossible for God. Nobody can describe His real nature. All is possible for Him. There were two yogis practicing sadhana. The sage Narada passed by. Knowing him to be Narada, one of them asked, ‘Are you coming from Narayana? What is He doing?’ Narada said, ‘I saw that He was passing camels and elephants back and forth through the eye of a needle.’ One of the yogis said, ‘What is there to marvel at? Everything is possible for Him.’ The other yogi replied, ‘Oh, no. That is impossible. You have never been there.’ ”

[sleeping jiva]

Nice picture, Nicole!

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

Nice picture, Nicole!
lol....now I have this strong urge to go to the Met and see it in person...I need to find a museum buddy...hehe

[ChiefCowpie]

yes, nice picture nicole

btw, we are approaching the most sacred 108th page... 4 more to go

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

yes, nice picture nicole

btw, we are approaching the most sacred 108th page... 4 more to go

I was like, "Why 108?" but I thought about it for a second and now I get it....hehehehe...108 beads...I'm a little slow this morning....hehehe

[BlackBillBlake]

I was like, "Why 108?" but I thought about it for a second and now I get it....hehehehe...108 beads...I'm a little slow this morning....hehehe
108 Gopis too - hence the 108 beads in the mala.

Hare Krishna!

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

108 Gopis too - hence the 108 beads in the mala.

Hare Krishna!
Ahh...that I did not know. Thanks for that new little fact! :) Hare Krishna!

[ChiefCowpie]

The Significance of the number 108

The Indian Subcontinent rosary or set of mantra counting has 108 beads. 108 has been a sacred number in the Indian Subcontinent for a very long time. This number is explained in many different ways.

The ancient Indians were excellent mathematicians and 108 may be the product of a precise mathematical operation (e.g. 1 power 1 x 2 power 2 x 3 power 3 = 108) which was thought to have special numerological significance.

Powers of 1, 2, and 3 in math: 1 to 1st power=1; 2 to 2nd power=4 (2x2); 3 to 3rd power=27 (3x3x3). 1x4x27=108

Sanskrit alphabet: There are 54 letters in the Sanskrit alphabet. Each has masculine and feminine, shiva and shakti. 54 times 2 is 108.

Sri Yantra: On the Sri Yantra there are marmas where three lines intersect, and there are 54 such intersections. Each intersections has masculine and feminine, shiva and shakti qualities. 54 x 2 equals 108. Thus, there are 108 points that define the Sri Yantra as well as the human body.

9 times 12: Both of these numbers have been said to have spiritual significance in many traditions. 9 times 12 is 108. Also, 1 plus 8 equals 9. That 9 times 12 equals 108.

Heart Chakra: The chakras are the intersections of energy lines, and there are said to be a total of 108 energy lines converging to form the heart chakra. One of them, sushumna leads to the crown chakra, and is said to be the path to Self-realization.

Marmas: Marmas or marmastanas are like energy intersections called chakras, except have fewer energy lines converging to form them. There are said to be 108 marmas in the subtle body.

Time: Some say there are 108 feelings, with 36 related to the past, 36 related to the present, and 36 related to the future.

Astrology: There are 12 constellations, and 9 arc segments called namshas or chandrakalas. 9 times 12 equals 108. Chandra is moon, and kalas are the divisions within a whole.

Planets and Houses: In astrology, there are 12 houses and 9 planets. 12 times 9 equals 108.

Gopis of Krishna: In the Krishna tradition, there were said to be 108 gopis or maid servants of Krishna.

1, 0, and 8: 1 stands for God or higher Truth, 0 stands for emptiness or completeness in spiritual practice, and 8 stands for infinity or eternity.

Sun and Earth: The diameter of the sun is 108 times the diameter of the Earth.

Numerical scale: The 1 of 108, and the 8 of 108, when added together equals 9, which is the number of the numerical scale, i.e. 1, 2, 3 ... 10, etc., where 0 is not a number.

Smaller divisions: The number 108 is divided, such as in half, third, quarter, or twelfth, so that some malas have 54, 36, 27, or 9 beads.

Islam: The number 108 is used in Islam to refer to God.

Jain: In the Jain religion, 108 are the combined virtues of five categories of holy ones, including 12, 8, 36, 25, and 27 virtues respectively.

Sikh: The Sikh tradition has a mala of 108 knots tied in a string of wool, rather than beads.

Chinese: The Chinese Buddhists and Taoists use a 108 bead mala, which is called su-chu, and has three dividing beads, so the mala is divided into three parts of 36 each.

Stages of the soul: Said that Atman, the human soul or center goes through 108 stages on the journey.

Meru: This is a larger bead, not part of the 108. It is not tied in the sequence of the other beads. It is the quiding bead, the one that marks the beginning and end of the mala.

Dance: There are 108 forms of dance in the Indian traditions.

Pythagorean: The nine is the limit of all numbers, all others existing and coming from the same. ie: 0 to 9 is all one needs to make up an infinite amount of numbers.

We have listed below 108 Upanishads as per the list contained in the Muktikopanishad . We have arranged them in four categories according to the particular Veda to which each of them belong.

Rigveda(10): Aitareya , Atmabodha, Kaushitaki, Mudgala, Nirvana, Nadabindu, Akshamaya, Tripura, Bahvruka, Saubhagyalakshmi.

Yajurveda(50): Katha, Taittiriya , Isavasya , Brihadaranyaka, Akshi, Ekakshara, Garbha, Prnagnihotra, Svetasvatara, Sariraka, Sukarahasya, Skanda, Sarvasara, Adhyatma, Niralamba, Paingala, Mantrika, Muktika, Subala, Avadhuta, Katharudra, Brahma, Jabala, Turiyatita, Paramahamsa, Bhikshuka, Yajnavalkya, Satyayani, Amrtanada, Amrtabindu, Kshurika, Tejobindu, Dhyanabindu, Brahmavidya, YogakundalinI, Yogatattva, Yogasikha, Varaha, Advayataraka, Trisikhibrahmana, mandalabrahmana, Hamsa, Kalisantaraaa, Narayana, Tarasara, Kalagnirudra, Dakshinamurti, Pancabrahma, Rudrahrdaya, SarasvatIrahasya.

SamaVeda(16): Kena, Chandogya, Mahat, Maitrayani, Vajrasuci, Savitri, Aruneya, Kundika, Maitreyi, Samnyasa, Jabaladarsana, Yogacudaman, Avyakta, Vasudevai, Jabali, Rudrakshajabala.

Atharvaveda(32): Prasna , Mandukya, Mundaka, Atma, Surya, Narada-Parivrajakas, Parabrahma, Paramahamsa-Parivrajakas, Pasupatha-Brahma, Mahavakya, Sandilya, Krishna, Garuda, Gopalatapani, Tripadavibhuti-mahnarayana, Dattatreya, Kaivalya, NrsimhatapanI, Ramatapani, Ramarahasya, HayagrIva, Atharvasikha, Atharvasira, Ganapati, Brhajjabala, Bhasmajabala, Sarabha, Annapurna, TripuratapanI, Devi, Bhavana, SIta.

The Significance of the number 108

We must agree that all measuring systems are merely reference frames. They give us a starting point. It doesn’t really matter if you call them farenheits or cycles. All science is based on fundamental assumptions of the mechanics of this universe. Yet, these assumptions, if correct, connect like building blocks.

Much in the same way, the number ‘108’ is just a reference frame. It is symbolic of a bigger picture: that of humility. When devotees recite 108 Hanuman Chalisas, in their minds they believe, they are proving their love for God, and that there is in fact a need to prove their love. When devotees assign a 108 names to Shri Ganesh, they are once again gauging their devotion through numbers. This, of course, may be considered unreasonable, since it suggests that 108 chants are more effective than 109 chants. How do they know this? Have they proved it? Is 108 the magic number of the universe? No, it is not! It is a reference frame. What is important is that a system is imposed to guide us through the fundamental struggles encountered in any evolutional process. Otherwise, chaos and anarchy follow and nothing gets done.

Having said that, I will show you justifications from a few subcultures in India. Obviously, I consider the Vedic rationale to be the most consistent with the fundamental laws of this universe. The others have borrowed and built, but it still smells of Vedic beginnings.

In present times, we can find many rationales for the proliferation of ‘108’ throughout our scriptures. In fact, this number seems to garner its unfair share of attention from myriad cults and faith systems around the world. I will give you a few justifications that have been brought to my attention.

JYOTISH SHASTRA {VEDIC SYSTEM}
This universe was created by the five elements: space, air, fire, water and earth. From these elements came the three attributes: Raj {birth}, Sat {protection} and Tam {destruction or death.}

The mathematical or geographical evidence proves that one circle has 360 degrees in space. Why is this circle or wheel of life considered to be of 360 degrees only? If we take a circle and start dividing it using the four elements and three attributes, all the logic can be observed.

The circle itself, is considered the first element of space, since we must consume space in drawing a circle. In this space {or circle}, the four remaining elements and three attributes create the idea of time. The circle is divisible by the product of four elements multiplied by three attributes. This involves the belief that the three attributes exist in the circle. By moving three times, each element completes its revolution.

So now we have the number 12 {3 x 4}. This division gave birth to our 12 months, and also to the 12 horas {1/2 of the day or Ahoratri}. We now have 360 degrees as well as 12 divisions. We can now further divide the wheel of time: there are 27 fixed stars (nakshatras) along with three attributes that divide the time in smaller portions. So this 27 + 3 = 30 is interpreted as 30 degrees or days of one part of the wheel (circle) or month. All of this is only half of a day. The night is yet unaccounted for. Therefore, we multiply these 30 degrees by 2. This gives us our reference of 60 seconds in a minute.

Thus the 360º x 30º = 10,800. Zero {0} is considered ‘Purna’ or complete. So we take out the last zeros and are left with 108. The idea of our total universe is represented by this number of 108. Offering 108, devotees believe that they are showing ultimate or complete respect to the Supreme.

There are many other justifications but all can be traced back to this system. A few are explained below:

SHOSHU BUDDHIST
Followers use 108 beads in their malas. They implement the following formula:
6 x 3 x 2 x3 = 108
6 senses [sight, sound, smell, taste, touch, thought]
3 aspects of time [past, present, future]
2 condition of heart [pure or impure]
3 possibilties of sentiment [like, dislike, indifference]

BUDDHA’S FOOTPRINT
All Buddhists accept the Buddha Footprint with its 108 Auspicious Illustrations. These areas are considered to have been marked on the Buddha’s left foot when his body was discovered.

BUDDHISM
108 beads on the Hindu maalaa {rosary}
108 Arhats or Holy Ones

HINDUISM
108 Gopis {consorts} of Lord Krishna
108 Holy places for Vaishnavas
108 beads on the Japa maalaa {rosary}
108 Upanishads
108 Divyadeshes - Divine or Sacred Tirtha throughout India and Nepal
108 sacred water taps in Muktinath - Nepal

TANTRA SHASTRA
108 Pitha {Sacred Places}
The story goes that Lord Shiva was in deep and incessant meditation. His asceticism was creating great heat in the universe. All existence was in peril and Lord Brahma was deeply concerned. Lord Brahma asked the Mother of the Universe, Maa Shakti, to use Her strength and wile to seduce Lord Shiva. Maa Shakti agreed and was born as Sati, daughter of Shri Daksha. Lord Shiva was so entranced by Sati’s asceticism and extraordinary beauty that he took human form and they were married. Years later, at a feast, Sati’s father insulted Lord Shiva. Sati was so humiliated that she began a deep meditation which led to her immolation. Lord Shiva was completely heart broken. He reached into the sacrificial fire and pulled out as much of His beloved’s body as he could grab. As He ascended to heaven, bits of Sati’s body fell to earth. 108 bits to be precise! In time, these places were acknowledged and worshipped.

SANATANA DHARMA
In a book by Khurana, the explanation closely mirrors the original Vedic justifications:
A circle has 360 degrees, which when multiplied by 60 gives us 21,600 minutes in a circle. 60 comes from the 60 'ghatis' which Sanatana Dharmiks believe in. One ghati is equal to 24 minutes and 60 ghatis come to 24 hours. One ghati is divided into 60 parts or 'palas'.
So the 60 ghatis multiplied by 60 palasa comes to 3,600.
This is further multiplied by 60 (becase a pala contains 60 vipalas) which gives us 21,600.
Half of this is for the day, and the other half for the night. So, 21,600
divided by 2 gives us 10,800. For practical purposes, we use 108. Using the
number 108 helps us coordinate the rhythm of time and space & we remain in harmony with the spiritual powers of nature.

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

Wow...that's really really interesting...

Thanks for sharing that Chief Cow Pie! :) Also, there are are 54 beads on the rosary that I bought at the Vatican (not counting the string of special beads...from the connector to the crucifix at the end)... :)

[BlackBillBlake]

Thats very interesting stuff Chief - thanks for posting it.

I've also heard that at Angkor Wat there are 108 statues arranged in an avenue leading up to one of the main temples. 54 on either side.

[BlackBillBlake]

In 1982, I began to seriously study Srila Prabhupada’s books, to do a lot of chanting, and generally to try to immerse myself in Krishna Consciousness as much as possible. How this came about is another story, but after several months of correspondence with the temple, I decided to take the plunge and go to see the devotees at Croombe Court, a large stately home in Worcestershire, England, which at that time was ISKCON’s European HQ. The guru presiding was Bhagavan Gurudeva, one of the twelve ‘successors’ named by Srila Prabhupada prior to His departure.
A friend of mine happened to live in Worcester, and had actually spent some time staying at CC, although he’d not met Bhagavan, and was very uncertain about Krishna Consciousness. It was agreed that we would go together in his car.

We arrived at about 11.00 am. The first thing I saw was a devotee seated on a bench outside repeating japa. I’d heard japa said very fast before, but this was too fast… he seemed to be trying to ‘get through it’ as quickly as possible. But I thought perhaps I was just placing my own construction on it. We were greeted by an American devotee, who told us we’d come at the right time; Bhagavan was in residence, and it was possible he would agree to see us personally. Mm.. I thought – straight in to see the main man! The American devotee went to enquire if Gurudeva would see us, leaving us in the company of a lady devotee, who was Italian, and spoke little English. I asked about the shaven heads, and she said hair is dirty for men. I asked why not for women too? But either she couldn’t understand, or couldn’t answer.

Another devotee came in and began telling me that this temple was like a hospital – where the disease of material attatchment was cured. Then the American returned to say that Bhagavan couldn’t see us personally, but we could stay until evening and attend his Darshan. I felt somewhat disappointed at this. But many contrary thoughts were already running through my mind. Was it my spiritual pride and so on that had made me think I’d get to arrive and go straight in to see the Guru? And these devotees – they didn’t seem right somehow. Not at all the atmosphere and enthusiasm I’d found in my meetings with devotees in Prabhpada’s time. They didn’t seem at all peaceful in some way – and there was a kind of feeling that some level of this was just an ‘act’ – a learned set of behaviours. Not a genuine outpouring of an inner consciousness, or even of faith, but something wholly assumed as a mode of outward action.

It was suggested that we go to the actual temple and view the Deities of Sri Pancha Tattva, Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and his principle associates, who are collectively worshiped, I believe, as the form of the Lord.

The temple was very nice, and had a wonderful series of paintings depicting Krishna’s earthly pastimes on the side walls. I felt something there- not very much, because my attention was drawn to a man who was seated at the back of the temple and who seemed to be in some distress. He kept wringing his head in his hands, and when he glanced up. An expression of hopelessness showed on his face. A younger devotee approached us. I asked about the other man. He said that he was a married devotee, hence no shaven head, who was having big doubts, which had gone on for some time. He went on that this was common. He said that Krishna Consciousness draws us in, and then all the old allure of material life comes in again – that people move in and out of it. I asked how long this person had been a follower, and was told he’d been in since the mid 70’s. I thought inwardly that this seemed a long time, only to be assailed by doubts which were obviously causing him great distress.

I talked for some time to the younger devotee, who explained that he’d only just come to CC, previously he’d been for some time at Bhaktivedanta Manor – the house donated by George Harrison. He was an attractive and well spoken young man, and urged me to put aside my doubts and join. I said I wasn’t sure. He replied that I’d feel differently after seeing Gurudeva. A group of female devotees had come in now, and one of them heard what was said and came over. Around her neck was a somewhat shrivelled old flower garland. She indicated this and smiled broadly. ‘A remnant of the Spiritual Master’ she exclaimed. ‘Gurudeva throws it in the air, and to get it is a great blessing’. ‘Male devotees will fight for remnants of the Spiritual Master ‘ she told me.

I didn’t much like the sound of this. But I smiled and said nothing, although by now I was having some doubts. This whole atmosphere wasn’t what I’d expected from my previous encounters with devotees. It wasn’t what I’d experienced in Prabhupada’s books, or in my own chanting, or meditation on Sri Krishna.

We returned back to the main house, were given a tour of certain areas, took some quite plain prasada, and sat talking to some other devotees. I can’t recall all that was said, but soon it was time for Kirtan, prior to Bhagavan’s coming down from his quarters to give Darshan.

The Kirtan took place in a kind of large entrance hall or lobby, with an enormous and beautiful picture of the child Krishna on the wall. The male devotees were all dancing with considerable physical energy, and they formed into a circle. At one point, a particular devotee was pushed into the centre, and another came forward and swung him around , arm in arm in the ‘country dancing’ style, but with such excessive force that the devotee was sent flying to the floor with quite a bump. This treatment I observed repeated two or three times. I was filled with disquiet.

Turning to a female devotee I asked her about it. ‘Devotees get excited dancing, and any pent up frustrations can come out – its all just play’ she assured me. But I was far from assured. I couldn’t equate this with what I’d read of Sri Chaitanya’s Sankirtan movement, what I’d experienced back in the 70’s with ISKCON, or indeed my own better judgement.

I noticed that the unfortunate devotee had a cut to the side of his head, but I wasn’t able to dwell on this because just then the chant changed from Hare Krishna to ‘Gurudeva’ as the great man made his appearance. As he walked past, I could hardly see him for the press of devotees. He entered a large room which had been prepared with a raised dais at one end, on which stood a large, ornate Indian chair, of the type Srila Prabhupada is often shown seated upon in photos. Gurudev took up his seat, and the same American devotee from earlier on, played a keyboard accompaniment to a further short Kirtan.

I noticed a group of Indians, three of four men standing at the back. All wore scowls on their faces, and looked somewhat sinister. One by one, devotees rose to their feet to pay respect to Gurudev with poems or just words of praise – but not their own words – rather, it was all done in phrases lifted almost verbatim from Prabhupada’s books. One could see their emotion, nonetheless, even though Bhagavan’s responses seemed a mixture of boredom and condescension. I focused hard on him, trying to feel something – anything. But all I could see was a common man – one taking a position to which he was not entitled. I felt some bitterness and frustration, and a kind of feeling of ‘oh no! oh no! what have I got into here?’

The whole atmosphere of this ‘Gurus’ ‘Darshan’ was not at all positive. I could sense some very unpleasant undercurrents of energy in the room, and the more I looked at Bhagavan, the more I was seeing him as an impostor, a fake, one with no spiritual presence whatsoever. Far from an atmosphere or aura of love, surrounding him was a wall of what looked and felt very much like sheer arrogance. The image of the Nazi’s chanting ‘heil hitler’ came into my head.

He eventually spoke a few words to all, to the effect that there are many stars in the material sky, but they are shooting stars, short lived. This was to prove prophetic in his own case, as later on, he eloped with a female secretary who had become his lover, and a pile of ISKCON cash, although the methods used to obtain this were very far from Srila Prabhupada’s intentions. I believe he was eventually prosecuted for fraud, swindling or something similar.

By now, all I wanted was to get out of there as fast as possible. I could feel an almost palpable aura of some threat – the others present seemed to be giving off a hostile vibration. The moment ‘Gurudeva’ had left the room, my friend and I , with one accord, almost ran out and to his car. He too said he’d felt very unpleasant vibes. It was almost like two men who’d just escaped being run over by a train by a hair’s breadth. It was a physical relief to be out of that place.

The truth is I was more conscious of Krishna just sitting at home, or doing jobs, or just about anything than I was that day. It began on a strange note, and ended in what was for me a big disappointment, but also a major breakthrough. It showed me clearly that this path was effectively closed to me in this form. Over time, I encountered other devotees, and was told I was wrong – I was stuck in material vision. But what the heart knows, the heart knows!

Sometime later, I became friendly with an ex-devotee of another of the pretender gurus, and he told me many things about ISKCON, from sexual abuse to out and out criminality that had gone on over the years. So I began to feel vindicated. The truth of my seeing as regards Bhagavan came when I heard the news of his ‘fall’.

Now, the nature and the scale of the scandals and fraudulence rampant in ISKCON is public knowledge. Those coming to Krishna Consciousness for the first time can hopefully be warned. But no doubt, some will be duped. That, in my humble opinion, is the danger in Prabhupada’s system – a pure devotee is needed at the top, or else the thing becomes a dangerous control mechanism, which exploits the real need people have to find the love of God. I pray that He will have mercy on all, and on Bhagavan, and all the other pretenders.

[sleeping jiva]

Oh great, BBB! It was such a pleasure to read your story. I mean of course it was scary too, but knowing you from this board I can really identify with it. I think that you find a mistake in Prabhupada's system without being aware that this was not Prabhupada's sytem at all! He never said that these people should be his successors. They were supposed to initiate the new devotees while Prabhupada was still supposed to be their spiritual master. Servants of the servant. I was reading this on the Isckon revival movement website you posted here. These people didn't follow his system that's why the whole thing finished like this. Had they followed his instruction, none of this would happen. I'm sure of it. Pure devotee means that he has no flaw. These gurus were trying to tell us that Prabhupada had flaws and now it's up to them to bring new methods. This is the beginning of the end. When Prabhupada was here, everything worked. He might have sound like dogmatic, but I believe that this is different. We cannot comprehend intentions of a pure devotee. These people wanted to become like Prabhupada, but not in the means of spirituality. They wanted his material status. They liked the way how the acarya was adored, but they didn't understand that he was adored naturaly for he had no authority, he was authority!!! That is the difference. Well, I must say, I'm ignorant in so many things, but I know that we shouldn't blame great souls for no reason. Prabhupada is the cause why we discuss here on hipforums and he brought us this great wisdom. Many tried to bring it in West, none of them succeed. The only way to Krishna lead through spiritual master, we must appreciate him, because he's got the key, you know. Moreover, Prabhupada says that the practise you do is totaly fine. One doesn't have to go to temple. He himself is the example. He prefered to preach around the world instead of residing in one temple. Prabhupada met his spiritual master only few times, yet he knew perfectly what to do. Remember it's not by physical contact, but by your devotion you should serve.
Anyhow, I felt myself that to go to a temple just isn't in my nature and then I found out about those fallen gurus, so I know how you feel. Hey, it doesn't matter. We should just repeat verses from Bhagavadgita and Prabhupada's books and I think it's ok. As soon as you don't change anything, your work counts. And if you just make this mantra popular what better you can do?

[BlackBillBlake]

Dear Jiva,


Thanks as always for your kind words. I did not intend to criticize Srila Prabhupada in my post, I only wanted to emphasize what can go wrong when the system is abused. You are 100% correct in saying that Prabhupada never intended these people to ursurp power as they did. I do not blame Him.
I don't blame anyone - the false gurus were, as you say, after power and prestiege and worship - just the things most people are seeking in material life!
If they knew Krishna in truth, they could never have acted as they did.
I hope this clarifies things.

Hare Krishna!

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

Dear BBB,

Thank you for sharing that story with us. It is indeed a shame that that had happened to the ISKCON movement... its just a pity that that happens with most organized religions... they forget about spirituality and just fall into words...words, words, words....and no love...

"It is better in prayer to have a heart without words than words without a heart." Mohandas Gandhi (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/m/mohandasga140404.html)

I could definetely understand your discomfort of the situation...the whole time I was reading the story...the situations just gave off a sense of "not right"...

The shame is that Srila Prabhupada, bless him, really did have faith in these men to follow his instructions...its a shame that they corrupted his trust... all He ever wanted was for us all to get closer to Krishna...

[sleeping jiva]

BBB: Ok. :) I think that this is the problem -as soon as we got the form, we tend to forget about the meaning. People are very lazy. They are satisfied with labels, but they don't question anymore. That's why I think that Prabhupada's original books are a gift of Krishna Himself. As Srila Prabhupada said several times- everything is there.

[BlackBillBlake]

Dear Jiva,


The problem seems to me to come from a lack of realization and sincerity on the part of some of Srila Prabhupada's devotees. They set out quite deliberately to set themselves up as Gurus, without any order to do so by Prabhupada. They then went on to use the positions they had falsely asumed for their own egoistic ends -
How this could have come about is, I have to confess, something of a mystery to me. After all, they were supposed to be the 'top' devotees; they'd all had lots of personal association with Prabhupada, and they must have known that they were acting in direct contradiction to His orders.
I can only conclude that they were in fact not at all advanced in Krishna Consciousness, since they all wanted to be 'guru', and also to increase their own personal wealth, gain power over others and so on.
Some were simply perverts and criminals.
Maybe it is a question here of 'power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely'.
It seems they wanted Prabhupada out of the way so thay could take over ISKCON and use the power they had ursurped for their own ends. In all this, any thought of Krishna was marginalized - or simply used as a cover for their nefarious activities.
The seriousness of what happened is reflected by the fact that one of them, Kirtanananda, was fined $250,000 and is serving a twenty-year federal prison sentence for racketeering and conspiracy in two murders.
As I said before, I pray that Krishna will have mercy on them, because their offences seem to be very serious.

Hare Krishna!

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

This guy had posted a link to his Krishna Conscious music on the George Harrison forums and I thought it worth sharing...its very good...


http://rahil.iscool.net/

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

daridrya-nasa, bhava-ksaya -- premera 'phala' naya
prema-sukha-bhoga-mukhya prayojana haya


So by devotional service one should not expect, "My miserable material condition may be improved" or "I may be liberated from this material entanglement." So that is also a kind of sense gratification. If I want that "Let me be free from this entanglement..." Just like the yogis and the jnanis, they try. They try to be free from this material entanglement. But in the devotional service there is no such desire, because it is pure love. There is no expectation that "I shall be profited in this way." No. It is not a profitable commercial business, that "Unless I get in return something, oh, I shall not practice the devotional service in Krsna consciousness. There is no question of profit. Lord Caitanya prays to the Lord like this:

na dhanam na janam na sundarim
kavitam va jagad-isa kamaye
mama janmani janmanisvare
bhavatad bhaktir ahaituki tvayi
[Cc. Antya 20.29, Siksastaka 4]

"Oh," He says, "My dear Lord, Jagadisa..." Jagadisa means the Supreme Lord, Krsna. Jagat, jagat means this world, material world or spiritual world, all worlds. Jagat. Jagat gacchati iti jagat: "Which is progressing, that is called jagat." So Jagat-isa, the supreme master of this jagat, going concern. "Jagadisa, O the supreme master of this jagat, I pray unto You that I do not want," na dhanam, "I do not want any wealth," na janam, "I do not want any number of followers..." Na janam na dhanam na kavitam va jagadisa kamaye. Kavitam means very nice wife, poetical... "I do not want." "Then what do You want?" Mama janmani janmanisvare. Janmani janmani [Cc. Antya 20.29, Siksastaka 4] means "birth after birth." So He does not want liberation also. Because when we speak of liberation, there is no birth. Mad-gatva punar janma na vidyate: "One who reaches the kingdom of God, he hasn't got to come back again to take birth here." So here Lord Caitanya says, mama janmani janmani: "Birth after birth." That means "I do not want liberation also." Mama janmani janmani.

"Then what do You want?" Isvare bhavatad bhaktir ahaituki: "My dear Lord, I may be put in any condition of My life, but please bestow this benediction, that I may not forget You. That's all. I may not forget You. Because due to My forgetfulness I am suffering so much. So if I can remember You, I don't mind in whatever condition I am."

-Srila Prabhupada; Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 20.142-143
New York, November 30, 1966

[BlackBillBlake]

Hare Krishna!


Dear Svg GdnBeauty,

Thanks for posting that. I thought you might like to see this - it is from 'The Teachings of Lord Chaitanya' ( re-issued later as 'The Golden Avatar' possibly in an 'edited' form?) by Srila Pabhupada.

Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu instructed His disciples to write books on the Science of Kṛṣṇa, a task which those who follow Him have continued to carry out down to the present day. The elaborations and expositions on the philosophy taught by Lord Caitanya are in fact most voluminous, exacting and consistent due to the system of disciplic succession. Although Lord Caitanya was widely renowned as a scholar in His youth, He left only eight verses, called Śikṣāṣṭaka. These eight verses clearly reveal His mission and precepts. These supremely valuable prayers are translated herein.

1. Glory to the Śrī Kṛṣṇa sańkīrtana, which cleanses the heart of all the dust accumulated for years and extinguishes the fire of conditional life, of repeated birth and death. This sańkīrtana movement is the prime benediction for humanity at large because it spreads the rays of the benediction moon. It is the life of all transcendental knowledge. It increases the ocean of transcendental bliss, and it enables us to fully taste the nectar for which we are always anxious.

2. O my Lord, Your holy name alone can render all benediction to living beings, and thus You have hundreds and millions of names like Kṛṣṇa and Govinda. In these transcendental names You have invested all Your transcendental energies. There are not even hard and fast rules for chanting these names. O my Lord, out of kindness You enable us to easily approach You by Your holy names, but I am so unfortunate that I have no attraction for them.

3. One should chant the holy name of the Lord in a humble state of mind, thinking oneself lower than the straw in the street; one should be more tolerant than a tree, devoid of all sense of false prestige and should be ready to offer all respect to others. In such a state of mind one can chant the holy name of the Lord constantly.

4. O almighty Lord, I have no desire to accumulate wealth, nor do I desire beautiful women, nor do I want any number of followers. I only want Your causeless devotional service birth after birth.

5. O son of Mahārāja Nanda [Kṛṣṇa], I am Your eternal servitor, yet somehow or other I have fallen into the ocean of birth and death. Please pick me up from this ocean of death and place me as one of the atoms at Your lotus feet.

6. O my Lord, when will my eyes be decorated with tears of love flowing constantly when I chant Your holy name? When will my voice choke up, and when will the hairs of my body stand on end at the recitation of Your name?

7. O Govinda! Feeling Your separation, I am considering a moment to be like twelve years or more. Tears are flowing from my eyes like torrents of rain, and I am feeling all vacant in the world in Your absence.

8. I know no one but Kṛṣṇa as my Lord, and He shall remain so even if He handles me roughly by His embrace or makes me brokenhearted by not being present before me. He is completely free to do anything and everything, for He is always my worshipful Lord unconditionally.



Jaya Sri Gaura!

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

Thanks for that BBB...it was very beautiful...

I esp. liked this one:

6. O my Lord, when will my eyes be decorated with tears of love flowing constantly when I chant Your holy name? When will my voice choke up, and when will the hairs of my body stand on end at the recitation of Your name?

:) Hare Krishna! :)

[sleeping jiva]

Haribol!

I've noticed lot of Krishna related topics on the main page :):)

[MattInVegas]

And why NOT? This IS a freedom of speach site. These people are hapy with who they are. They are simply Pushy about wanting YOU to be happy too.
I want you all to be happy with who you are. I just don't TELL you what to believe so you CAN be happy.

[sleeping jiva]

yep. Let Krishna be everywhere, cuz that is happiness right away. just chant:

[ChiefCowpie]

http://www.call-of-the-sea.com/myths/images/makara.gif
"The Makara is a composite monster something like a crocodile, taking many forms, but unreal and elusive in all of them. It is hard to imagine that it was ever believed to exist, yet its figure is common in the architecture of India and the Far East and in the Mayan and Aztec civilizations of the New World. Its appearance is so varied, its features so different, that almost any weird beast can be called a makara; there are elephant-makaras, fish-makaras, dragon-makaras, goat-makaras, and so on, which may possibly account for its lack of a concrete, substantial character.

Two points, however, seem to persist in all the metamorphoses of the makara. Although essentially a sea-beast, it always seems to have characteristics of both fish and mammal and it may be that, even as the Persian bird senmurv was an attempt to combine the features of mammal and bird in a single creature, the makara was intended to combine the features of sea and land animals in one. Secondly, the makara always has at least a suggestion of a snout. This snout, whether it originated in that of the crocodile, or as the horn of the horned shark, the horn of the antelope, or the trunk of an elephant, certainly resembles the latter most closely. The creatures modeled at either end of the ridge pole of Chinese roofs, with the pole itself coming forth from their mouths in a most successful architectural design, are presumably makaras. Their head, and the barely suggested front claws are those of the dragon; the snout that curls back over the wide-open mouth can only be described as that of an elephant.

The makara is essentially Indian, although its prototype may well be found in the goat-fish Capricorn, a creature of the Babylonian water-god Ea. Its most common form is that of an antelope-fish, and as such it is the tenth sign of the Indian Zodiac, being thus identical with the goat-fish Capricorn which is the tenth sign of our Zodiac.

But the strangest thing about the makara is that, although definitely an aquatic animal, it combines features of the elephant and the dragon. And it is in the relationship of the elephant to the dragon, or serpent, that we may find a clue to the mystery of why the dragons of East and West have so different a character. The great reptilian figure, the primeval force that under the guise of the dragon haunted the minds of both Orient and Occident, seems to have been originally one and the same creature; only, as we have seen, in Western mythology it epitomized all that was most diabolical, destructive and terrifying in nature, and in the Far East it was the king and best of all beasts, capricious perhaps, but a true benefactor of man.

In Indian mythology, however, not only do good and evil dragons exist together but they carry on constant warfare against each other. The trouble is that, to add to the confusion, it is doubtful whether either of these two opposing dragon forms are truly dragons. Both are nagas, which is usually translated either as "dragon" or "snake," but the word "naga" is applied not only to the mythological serpent breed but also to the wild elephant. And the elephant is definitely a symbol of good. (This is reflected by early Christian writers, who used the elephant as a symbol of Christ.) Thus, whether from a misunderstanding of words, or from an inarticulate attempt to express the duality of good and bad in nature, the elephant seems to have taken over the good characteristics of the dragon form, while the serpent-dragon-naga absorbed what was evil in it. The first concept, traveling east, may have been associated with an already existing spirit of the waters and thus given the Orient its kindly, bewhiskered dragon (though in this case it could only have been the concept or idea that traveled; it would be hard to imagine anything physically less like an elephant than the Chinese dragon). In the same way the second, traveling west, either created or reinforced belief in a monster of evil, an elemental force incarnate in serpent form. (In this connection it is interesting to find a seventeenth-century English naturalist saying that "There be also serpents called Elephants," whose bite inflicts a kind of leprosy, but that fortunately these are "strangers to our country.")

Whatever its origin, the traditional enmity of elephant and snake is widely accepted both East and West. The Pa snake in Western China is reputed to attack and swallow elephants, as are certain serpents in Borneo. In Libya, near the Nile river, enormous snakes are said to prey on the elephants as they come down to drink, and the same story is told of the dragon in India. There as elsewhere, it is the reptile who attacks the elephant, entangling him in vicious coils until the poor ponderous beast has no hope of escape, but it is said that the wounded elephant makes sure he falls in such a way as to crush his enemy. Thus the monsters die together. No man has ever seen one of these titanic battles, but proof of them is to be found in the existence in the earth of veins of cinnabar, for it is the dragon's blood soaking into the earth that causes this reddish ore. (At least one Japanese emperor tried to make himself immortal by drinking melted cinnabar in the belief that it was truly dragon's blood.)

All this takes us far from the makara. There may indeed be no connection between that vague and unrealistic monster and the question of whether the dragons of East and West have a common ancestor in the "naga," and whether the naga in turn is both elephant and snake. But it is curious that a single combining elephant and dragon does exist.

The makara is a frequent decorative motive, either the whole figure or the head alone, and it is probably due to its popular use in art rather than to any symbolism that it has become so widespread in the Far East. As a design rather than a living beast, it also appears in combination with another strange creature found in Indian and other Asian architecture. This is the Kirtimukha, the "Glory Face" or "Face of Fame," and it is the face of a lion, without body, without limbs, without even a chin below its wide open mouth. The eyes are protruding, the thick line of the eye-brows is extended to form a suggestion of horns, and the bushy hair springs upward as though it were meant to represent flames. The mouth is an enormous grinning cavern reminding one irresistibly of the Cheshire Cat. ("A grin without a cat! It's the most curious thing I ever saw in all my life!") Sometimes, especially when used as the lintel of doorways in Javanese temples, there is no lower lip at all and the "Glory Face" is scarcely even a face. From the open mouth spring festoons of pearls or of flowers, and these in turn end on either side in the head of a makara, fish face, elephant snout and all.

This Kirtimukha is probably related to the "T'ao-t'ieh," or monster face, of China, which was supposed to drive away evil spirits and which was much used on early sacrificial bronzes. It is likely that both are derived from some ancient Asiatic symbol, the meaning of which is lost to us. The origin of the T'ao-t'ieh (also Tao-tieh) is certainly obscure, the only hint being contained in a single reference in the early classical books to the T'ao-t'ieh as one of four monsters exiled into outer darkness by the emperor Shun about 2,000 B.C., but it is interesting to find that the characters for the name of this bodiless monster face mean "voracious glutton." The story as told in India by the worshippers of Siva to account for the origin of the Glory Face fits in well with the idea of gluttony.

Siva, it seems, was just about to marry the beautiful Parvati, when a messenger came to him from the land of the demons. This messenger was Rahu, the demon who every now and then swallows the sun and so causes eclipses, and the message he brought was that the king of the demons considered Siva unworthy to wed Parvati of the mountains, and that he himself would take her instead. On hearing this Siva became so angry that, before he could even speak, a monster in the shape of a man-lion, which was indeed nothing else than his own concentrated fury made visible, sprang out from between his eyes and fell upon the unfortunate Rahu. Rahu, however, threw himself at Siva's feet and begged for mercy, arguing, as the ambassadors of kings have always done, that he could not reasonably be held responsible for the message of which he was only the bearer. Siva, mollified, agreed to let him go. But the lion creature who was born of his wrath now turned upon Siva, and complained of hunger.

"You created me to devour the demon," he protested. "And now you have forgiven him and sent him away. What am I to do?"

"Well," Siva agreed, "that is true enough. But if you have been cheated of one demon, there is still another. You will just have to eat yourself."

And this the monster did. He began with his legs and then his arms, gradually eating himself up until nothing remained of him but the face. (The strings of pearls so gracefully formed into garlands by the artists were his entrails.) The sight of this so amused Siva that he appointed the lion spirit -- or what remained of it -- as guardian of his door, to be worshiped and fed with sacrificial meats by all who entered there.


Text excerpted from Peter Lum's Fabulous Beasts, copyright 1951. "

quoted from:

http://www.call-of-the-sea.com/myths/makara.htm

[ChiefCowpie]

This Makara is constructed in two animal forms

Attached image(s)
http://www.gaudiyadiscussions.com/uploads/post-31-1089995040.jpg

[ChiefCowpie]

This is the way a Makara is normally placed in a temple structure. there should be one at the other side as well. This one is some kind of aquatic animal with an elephant's trunk holding a fish. Some kind of crocodile with lions' paws and a fin/wing hinting at the union of the diverse elements...

Attached image(s)
http://www.gaudiyadiscussions.com/uploads/post-31-1089995193.jpg

[ChiefCowpie]

Here is a Kirtimukha of the Konarak Sun Temple, a Face of Glory, the personification of hunger eating itself, a symbol of the universe

Attached image(s)
http://www.gaudiyadiscussions.com/uploads/post-31-1090011677.jpg

[ChiefCowpie]

"Yalli, (corruption of Skt. vyala, fierce monster) are architectural or decorative animal motifs. They feature mainly as stone carvings like the ones at the famous Hindu temples of Madurai in Tamil Nadu, South India.

They usually have the stylized body of a lion and the head of some other beast, most often an elephant (gaja-vyala.) Other common examples are: the lion-headed (simha-vyala,) horse- (ashva-vyala,) human- (nir-vyala) and the dog-headed (shvana-vyala) ones. They are related to the hippogryphs and sphinxes of Egypt and Mesopotamia, and symbolize the world-emperor (Skt. chakravartin,) whose strength derives from divine power.

Another monstrous creature is the Shabara, a hybrid of a lion, horse and ram.)

Their counterparts in European design are some of the fantastic animals used as mediaeval heraldic devices, eg. the griffon.

Mukha

Mukha means face or mask or even maw. A mukha is an architectural or decorative motif that is placed above openings as a form of protection. It is also known as makara vakstra, and is often the central feature in the elaborate cloth door hanging known as a toran. A particular type is known as the Face of Glory or Kirtimukha. It is a demonic mask of great ferocity with protruding eyeballs, stout horns, and a gaping maw with prominent fangs or canine teeth. Kirtimukhas often appear above gates, dormer windows, archways and so on. A kirtimukha often has garlands or festoons issuing from its mouths.

It is also referred to as Simha-mukha (lion-mask) in literature, and the stylized lion's face can be traced to the Persian lion-faces which appear for the first time in India on Mauryan (eg. Ashoka) pillar capitals. It is referred to as Grasamukha in western India, Rahumukha in eastern India, and as Kala in the Southeast Asian countries.

It may be related to the Mask of Medusa as it was used in Greek and Roman architecture. Gorgon heads with their terrific faces were carved on gates and walls of forts, palaces, and temples to ward off enemies and other dangers. Similar decorative devices were also used by the Scythians, Chinese and appear all over the world; in Britain, for example, there is the Green Man mask hiding in corners of Gothic cathedrals.

The Kirtimukha is generally considered symbolic of the destructive power of Shiva Mahabhairav (very wrathful) -- destroyer of demons. It is seen by Hindus as symbolic of the glory of divine power which generates creation but is also the source of destruction. For Buddhists it is a symbol of Impermanence -- the face of the demon grasping the Wheel of Samsara. However, alone, it is an auspicious mark of the activity of Dharma Protection.

Some see in the Kirtimukha, the eclipse demon Rahu who had no body according to Indian mythology. Eclipses are almost never considered good omens and often are interpreted as portents of disaster. Considering the ancient homeopathic principle that we can treat "like with like" then we can understand why Kirtimukhas are believed to ward off evil, especially such forces of destruction as fire and earthquake.

V. S. Agrawala says that kirti denotes an excavated chamber, and so Kirtimukha signifies its façade. ~ Rajaram Hegde's on-line article.

Kirtimukha often appears as a subtle motif in the embroideries, and traditional Tibetan Buddhist hangings and banners that decorate shrine rooms and temples. For some, they still serve in a magical capacity to ward off evil, for others they are only an auspicious motif. Most people do not even realize the mask is there."

a quotation from:
http://www.khandro.net/mysterious_vyali_mukha.htm

[ChiefCowpie]

corresponding ideas in our european and islamic traditions

for a sample of a Green Man in England see

http://www.mikeharding.co.uk/greenman/greenpix2.html


The Green Man in Islamic tradition here, but clearly leading into alchemical symbology:

http://khidr.org/index.htm

[ChiefCowpie]

This is a more speculative piece on cosmic-astronomical connections of these symbols.

"Coomaraswamy writes that the makara is a great Leviathan (serpent) moving through the waters. Since the makara has a primary stelar relationship with Capricorn, the waters, on one level, must be the cosmic ocean of the night sky. Spiritually, or metaphysically, the waters contains the essence of life. The makara decorative types that Coomaraswamy examines are well known as the “vehicle” of Varuna and the banner of Kamadeva. “Vehicle” means conveyence or totem object in which the deity resides. Kama-deva means death or time spirit. In relation to Kamadeva, the makara’s mouth symbolizes the gate of death and birth, and passing through it annihilates time.

In other words, the domain beyond the terrible, devouring mouth of the makara is the realm of unconditioned essences, and is beyond the conditioned experience of time within the manifest world. As such, the makara is related to the gandharva beings who guard the gate of paradise, within which the soma elixir of immortality can be had (if one is spiritually prepared). Krsannau is a gandharva; he is an archer who protects the treasure of heaven at the center of the world. He is associated with Sagittarius, the archer constellation. Already, we have two pointers to a specific region of the sky: Krsannau (Sagittarius) and the makara (Capricorn), which are next to each other. The makara is related to a group of life-sprouting or life-devouring mouths that include the kala-mukha (great mouth) and the simsumara crocodile, who lies in wait within the stream travelled by the newly deceased soul. In many traditions around the globe this river of souls is usually equated with the Milky Way. Given that the mouth motif is located in the region of Sagittarius, Capricorn, and the Milky Way, it is almost impossible to not associate it with the great cleft in the Milky Way which runs north of Sagittarius.

The makara is also the vehicle of the river goddess Ganga (p. 143), and the Ganges is associated with the Milky Way. The makara appears as the source of lotus vegetation (of life). The Yaksa is a spirit of life-essence and the lotus is sometimes shown sprouting from its mouth or navel. Voice and navel were though of as creative forces or centers.

In Mannikka’s book on Angkor Wat, a connection is made between the eagle who stole soma and the Aquila constellation. Krsannau (Sagittarius) shot at the Garuda bird/eagle. The soma is often equated with solar fire, but is also the life-essence that resides at the root of the cosmic tree of creation. It can also be conceived of as creative fire at the top of the cosmic mountain. Varuna was an early form of Indra, whose solar associations place the sun into the sidereal location under consideration. This opens up the yaksa cosmology to time, seasons, and solar movements. The ashvatta twins helped to resurrect their solar father on the winter solstice. The ashvatta is the station of the horse, related to sky elephants (clouds; the Milky Way) who are gandharvas. Yaksas and Yaksis are later male-female versions of the gandharva-apsarases duality, and may relate to the ashvata twins. The asvatta is also the tree under which the Buddha achieved enlightenment; as it is also the station of the horse, we may have an astrological feature much like the Mayan crocodile head that represents the nuclear bulge of the galactic center. Coomaraswamy writes, “the makara is always represented, at least in the early art, as a creature with a head like a crocodile…” (143). A related tree is the nyograva tree, which means “downward spreading.” This inverted tree motif evokes an axis that comes down to earth from a celestial root or center place. This is the tree in the galactic chakra model. Mula is lunar mansion called “root” and is located at the galactic center (see Frawley).



The full-face makara, a widely used architectural element even to this day, is also known as kirtimukha, or “glory head.” Coomaraswamy writes that the kirtimukha was probably not originally associated with the makara. My feeling, given the glory head’s presence in the Rahu-myth, is that it should refer to the Gemini-Taurus gateway. Confusion arises in the multiple uses of different metaphors (mouth, naval, head) and when isolating one side of the sky from the other. The proper system would identify the makara’s mouth as a birthplace (vagina / fish-mouth) and the Rahu glory head as the third eye of the sixth chakra; or, the creativity of third eye mentation is born through incantation and thus voice/mouth. Vagina-mouth duality. The Makara crocodile is analogous to the Greek dolphin (p. 144); the dolphin as symbol of the savior who was born on the December solstice is consistent with the makara’s association with Capricorn (see my argument that the dark-rift “mouth” rises heliacally when the sun is in Capricorn). The makara is related to the flood legend (water or life essence flooding out of the Leviathan’s mouth) – thus an eschatological use. A myth states that the makara’s mouth can contain a pearl, and extracting it was providential; this relates to the soma-beyond-the-gate theme.

It is not surprising that these features and locations come together in the Churning of the Ocean creation myth. At Angkor Wat, this myth is prominently featured. A related myth, the theft of soma, borrows many of the motifs; most significantly, soma. Sagittarius, Aquila, Capricorn, and the sun (as soul-essence or soul-fire) all relate to the sun’s passage (annually or precessionally) through the galactic center. Metaphysically, we can understand this as being equivalent to the soul’s after death journey to God. The soul, like the sun, passes through the highest house wherein the Creator dwells. In the passage through God’s house, spirit-energy attaches to the soul. Or, we might say, the God-consciousness already resident in the soul resonates with the God-soma-energy-light during its after-death processing in the highest heaven."

quoted from:

http://alignment2012.com/coom-yaksa.html

[ChiefCowpie]

Krishna wears a Makara-kundala (Makara-shaped ear-rings)


This is told about Perumal in this regard:

"The makara kundala i.e., ear drops which adorns His ears is studded with precious stones. When He moves His head, they create a gentle musical sound. What is more the bright shining glow of the precious stones in the kundala get deflected by the frontiers of the ashta disas (eight directions) and rebounds on the face of Perumal and enhances His Tejas. It is as if the makara kundalas are dancing with joy at the sight of the lavanya sundaram (Supreme delicate beauty) of the divine face. The face (mukham) of Perumal radiates Tejas (bright effulgence), Saithyam (cool), Mardavarn (softness), sowrabhyam (delicate fragrance). It has all the great qualities (sakala kalaigal). It confers happiness on all; It is so beautiful as to surpass even the ravishing beauty of the blemishless chandramandala and that of a freshly blossomed lotus flower. It makes the devotees who are near Him become uncontrollably mad with a craving to attain Him (pichhu uttri). It is the abode of Maya and makes the devotee forget everything else and think of only one wish viz., to attain His lotus feet and become one with Him."

http://www.srivaishnava.org/sva/lokacar/arche3.htm

[BlackBillBlake]

And why NOT? This IS a freedom of speach site. These people are hapy with who they are. They are simply Pushy about wanting YOU to be happy too.
I want you all to be happy with who you are. I just don't TELL you what to believe so you CAN be happy.
Hare Krishna!


If people are happy and sincere, whatever they believe is ok with me - not trying here to say that you must believe this or that - everyone is free to beleive in Krishna, Jesus, Buddha, The Great Spirit, Tao, Angels - just seeking here to follow a particular line.... myself, I have no wish to impose my beliefs on others :)

With Love,

BBB.

[ChiefCowpie]

am not sure of exactly what matt is saying but tis true that some hare krishnas have been rather pushy of their beliefs and black spotted the ideology

[BlackBillBlake]

am not sure of exactly what matt is saying but tis true that some hare krishnas have been rather pushy of their beliefs and black spotted the ideology
You're absolutely right about some being very pushy - too pushy IMHO :)

I'm not fully sure what Matt was saying, but I just wanted to say that not all who believe in Krishna are either narrow minded or saying 'this is the only way'.

And Chief, the posts on the Makara are very interesting - thanks once again.

Love,

BBB.

[sleeping jiva]

Lol. If u chant mahamantra, or serve prasadam, or spread the Mahaprabhu's message it is the best pushiness you can ever get. :):):)

Today. My friend asked me to Mc over his drum and bass vinyls in our college radio, he's a dj. I sang some stuff and then I chanted a few mahamantra rounds and I finished with Jay Prabhupada. hahaha. Nobody knew how pushy I am :)


I was travelling by subway here in Montreal and all of a sudden it hit me. Check this:

George Harrison -Hari's son -get it? hahaha

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

George Harrison -Hari's son -get it? hahaha
lol...I saw that on an Vaisnava tribute site to George Harrison...I thought that was pretty cool... :)

[sleeping jiva]

yeah, I've never realized it. but in each case quite mind blowing, isn't it? Hari is Lord Krishna. hihihihihi.

[BlackBillBlake]

Lol. If u chant mahamantra, or serve prasadam, or spread the Mahaprabhu's message it is the best pushiness you can ever get. :):):)


Hare Krishna!

The thing is though Jiva, that often too much pushyness, especailly coupled with dogmatism, is one of the main factors that can put folks (or potential FOLKS - Freinds of Lord Krishna) off.

[ChiefCowpie]

Or using the logic that since everything belongs to Krishna, its ok to steal for Krishna's service.

[sleeping jiva]

No, no, if you're really Krishna conscious -you're the one who gives -mahamantra, prasadam, message of Bhagavadgita. You must do it according to circumstances of course, but please never compromise. Never agree on impersonalism.

[BlackBillBlake]

No, no, if you're really Krishna conscious -you're the one who gives -mahamantra, prasadam, message of Bhagavadgita. You must do it according to circumstances of course, but please never compromise. Never agree on impersonalism.
However, before trying to give others the message of Bhagavad Gita, it is necessary to be fully sure of what that message is. The last word of Bhagavad Gita is often said to be Chapter 18, verse 66

'Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me; I shall deliver you from all sinful reaction. Do not fear'

I don't like to criricize anyone who is following sincerely any spiritual path.

Hare Krishna!

[Kharakov]

'Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me; I shall deliver you from all sinful reaction. Do not fear'

I don't like to criricize anyone who is following sincerely any spiritual path. So occasional hatred for God (krishna) is simply a step in the path? Generally, anytime I am angry with something or someone, I blame God. I also credit God for the good times- since everything is God's fault/creation.

[BlackBillBlake]

So occasional hatred for God (krishna) is simply a step in the path? Generally, anytime I am angry with something or someone, I blame God. I also credit God for the good times- since everything is God's fault/creation.
Hare Krishna!

The goal of this yoga is love of Krishna - we have no reason to blame God when things go wrong - often it's our own doing. If we surrender, that means we aren't seeking any goal that is not Krishna's will. We give up our own desires and so whatever Krishna sends is to be accepted.
But in the Srimad Bhagavatam Krishna's pastimes are described, and as well as devotees, Krishna also has enemies. Krishna's uncle, King Kansa was one such. He was always thinking of Krishna, but in a negative way, plotting to kill him, and eventually challenging Him to a wrestling match. Kansa lost this contest and was killed by Krishna, but he was also given immediate liberation. So even thinking of Krishna in a negative way isn't all bad - its better than not thinking of Him at all. And perhaps Kansa himself was secretly a devotee, but took the role of enemy for the sake of the lila, Krishna's Divine play.

[BlackBillBlake]

Hare Krishna! Page 108! :)

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

Ah, so it is page 108! :) Hare Krishna!! :)

Btw Andrew, beautiful picture!! :)

[ChiefCowpie]

http://www.gaudiyadiscussions.com/uploads/post-348-1098135391_thumb.jpg (http://www.gaudiyadiscussions.com/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=1008)


Divine narcissism

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

Divine narcissism
lol...you're right...hehe...

That is a very beautiful picture...thanks for sharing it! :)

[Kharakov]

The goal of this yoga is love of Krishna - we have no reason to blame God when things go wrong - often it's our own doing. But we can do nothing except what God sets out for us to do. You start in whatever form Krishna picks, and you end how krishna chooses- so all things that happen (even your 'wrongs') are caused by Krishna and within the divine plan. When Krishna deliberately provokes your anger, it is not your fault. You cannot stand up against Krishna- all you can do is become angry, for this is Krishna's will. At the same time as you recognize that your anger is deliberately provoked by Krishna, you should recognize that your anger is part of Krishna's will, and therefore the blame for your anger lies upon Krishna, as well as the credit for whatever benefit you gain from becoming angry with Krishna.

If we surrender, that means we aren't seeking any goal that is not Krishna's will. We give up our own desires and so whatever Krishna sends is to be accepted.Including our own desires that Krishna has built into us. We do not create desire through our own will, Krishna creates our desire as well as our surrender. Causing painful desire to arise within a being is part of what Krishna does.

But in the Srimad Bhagavatam Krishna's pastimes are described, and as well as devotees, Krishna also has enemies.Enemies that Krishna has deliberately created with the purpose of defeating them. If I have a child, and deliberately cause its enmity for the sole purpose of vanquishing my own child, I would be judged as evil, would I not? If in following Krishna's example of causing evil in the world I emulate the supreme being, then the evil I do is nothing more than divine drama, and the pain is just part of the act. It is no matter that we have no choice in the roles we play.
Do you not think that this is heavy handed of Krishna to decide to deliberately be hurtful of one part of creation and favor the other portion? Does your desire not to be the enemy of Krishna cause you to ignore the deliberate provocations of your creator? Is your will greater than Krishna's that if Krishna decides to provoke your anger, you will not be angered?

Kansa lost this contest and was killed by Krishna, but he was also given immediate liberation.So perhaps Krishna provokes my enmity in order to liberate me, and chooses the easy path (of provoking love) for others?

[BlackBillBlake]

But we can do nothing except what God sets out for us to do. You start in whatever form Krishna picks, and you end how krishna chooses- so all things that happen (even your 'wrongs') are caused by Krishna and within the divine plan. When Krishna deliberately provokes your anger, it is not your fault. You cannot stand up against Krishna- all you can do is become angry, for this is Krishna's will. At the same time as you recognize that your anger is deliberately provoked by Krishna, you should recognize that your anger is part of Krishna's will, and therefore the blame for your anger lies upon Krishna, as well as the credit for whatever benefit you gain from becoming angry with Krishna.
This idea that we can do nothing but what Krishna puts into us is not quite right. In the Gita, it is explained that this world of the lower nature is more or less mechanical in its operations. A person thinks they are acting in a way they have willed, but it is only the Gunas, the modes of nature or prakriti acting. Krishna has three main energies - the higher spiritual nature, the lower material and the marginal, which includes all living entities. In effect, unless the true relation to God is realized, we are on a conveyor belt - we have the idea that we choose this or that course of action, but it is all determined by karma and the gunas. By the lower nature, or Kshara.
Also, in the Gita Krishna says that anger and so on are lower qualities that are associated not with the Divine, but with the demonic. There are these two natures in us - the devotee, as I explained, is one who gives up the illusion of personal desires, preferences, and so on. If we are not seeking to fulfil any particular desire, there is no frustration or disappointment possible, and hence, no cause for anger. Anger only arises when our own 'will' is thwarted.
Krishna doesn't 'provoke our anger' - if one is angry with God, it is because of the power of illusion, which makes us identify with the lower part of our being - physical, mental, false ego. If we can once realize our true identity as eternal spiritual beings, that we are simply small packets of the self same God, and this nature is blissful and eternally liberated, what cause for anger?
Even from a different point of view, Christianity, God gives man free-will - we have a choice to turn to Him or not.
We have to serve either the false ego or God. It is true that God's will sustains the entire universe, but that doesn't mean we are automatically serving Him. It is a question of consciousness. Without God consciousness, we are not serving Him directly. We have the idea that we are doing this or that, fulfilling our desires etc, but it is all carried out by the modes of nature.

Hare Krishna!

[BlackBillBlake]

Well... I dunno much about it.. but it is a religion....
re·li·gion (rhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/ibreve.gif-lhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/ibreve.gifjhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/prime.gifhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/schwa.gifn)
n.

<LI type=a>Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.


The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.
tell me it doesn't fall under any of those definitions.
Actually, Bhakti is a type of yoga. If you want to call it religion, thats up to you.

[sleeping jiva]

It is not a religion at all!!! If you got this characteristic, then you may call it a religion, but actually religion means dogma. Hare Krishnas are tolerant to other paths. As soon as you chant the names of God -it doesn't mater what path you follow. We respect Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha -cuz we understand that these were nothing than Krishna consciousness (God Consciousness) preachers. For Hare Krishnas set of practices are important, but the main thing is to serve Krishna. It is a service, not a religion. You might be attached to certain practises too. Also, it is not a belief. Belief changes. Once you believe in that than you believe in something else. Bhakti is eternal. It follows you from life to life. Devotee is not afraid to go to hell in order to serve Krishna, cuz he doesn't care for material conditions. We are spirit souls, not this material bodies. As soon as you understand this, you begin to understand Krishna.

[BlackBillBlake]

Hare Krishna!

I've found a couple of pictures of Sri Krishnaprem, and I thought I'd post them here along with a poem about him by Dillip Kumar Roy.

Sri Krishnaprem.

Sons of an intellectual age, we scan
And weigh the heart's findings with our intellectual measures,
Surmising never once that no mind can
Win even a clue to the soul's resplendent treasures.


The more we probe the more must thought mislead
Till even the meaning of our spirit's birth
Is buried in the din of words that plead
For the reign of trifling truths of temporal worth.


You diagnosed this fatal malady
With an insight born of loyalty to love
And so disowned our reasoned revelry
Whose dire dischord your heart could never approve.


O Reason's elect, withal, a citizen
Of stellar climes no mind has ever trod:
Who saw your radiant Face could never again
Doubt faith's deep power of leading us back to God.

D.K.Roy.

[ChiefCowpie]

BBB, Sri Krishna Prem looks most most saintly and gentle... he is very beautiful... most obvious that Radha and Krishna have taken shelter in his heart.

108,000 - 109 = 107,891

only 107,891 pages until we get to page 108,000

[Kharakov]

This idea that we can do nothing but what Krishna puts into us is not quite right.Sets out for us to do, not puts in to us.
In the Gita, it is explained that this world of the lower nature is more or less mechanical in its operations.
In effect, unless the true relation to God is realized, we are on a conveyor belt - we have the idea that we choose this or that course of action, but it is all determined by karma and the gunas. By the lower nature, or Kshara.So a 'mechanical conveyer belt' built by God leads us into understanding our true relation to God. Still entirely dependant upon God.

If we are not seeking to fulfil any particular desire, there is no frustration or disappointment possible, and hence, no cause for anger. Yup.
Krishna doesn't 'provoke our anger' - if one is angry with God, it is because of the power of illusion, which makes us identify with the lower part of our being - physical, mental, false ego.If what God does causes anger to arise within God's creation, this is a flaw in God's ability to act without producing anger, unless this anger is aroused on purpose. Your claim means God is flawed and cannot create us without sometimes causing us to identify with the 'lower' part of our being (becoming angry). I claim God sometimes chooses to cause us to identify with the lower part of our being to fulfill God's purpose in perfecting the 'lower' part of our being.
It is true that God's will sustains the entire universe, but that doesn't mean we are automatically serving Him. It is a question of consciousness. Maybe people are not aware of serving God's purpose, but they are.

[BlackBillBlake]

Sets out for us to do, not puts in to us.
So a 'mechanical conveyer belt' built by God leads us into understanding our true relation to God. Still entirely dependant upon God.

Yup.
If what God does causes anger to arise within God's creation, this is a flaw in God's ability to act without producing anger, unless this anger is aroused on purpose. Your claim means God is flawed and cannot create us without sometimes causing us to identify with the 'lower' part of our being (becoming angry). I claim God sometimes chooses to cause us to identify with the lower part of our being to fulfill God's purpose in perfecting the 'lower' part of our being.
Maybe people are not aware of serving God's purpose, but they are.
It is not God but the material world and our mode of consciousness that is flawed. The reactions of karma may eventually lead to some connection to God - no doubt that eventually, everyone is going back to Him - but yoga is a means to speed up this process.

The idea that 'what God does causes anger to arise in God's creation' must obviously be true in one sense, but anger and so on are like perverse reflections of something that exists in God, as is this whole world. It is said to be Krishna's separated material energy - it is not that this world is integrated fully in Him.

What you say about 'God causing us to identify with the lower being... to fulfil God's purpose in perfecting the lower part of our being' - is probably quite correct, in the sense of a Divine influence gradually evolving a higher level of perfection here in the world. However, only if one has an inner consciousness of God and is seeking to work towards first of all one's own perfection, can this really be true. Otherwise, people just serve their own egoistic desires, puppets of unseen forces that are constantly acting upon them, compelling them to actions that do nothing to bring about any positive change on a meaningful level.

Nothing can exist for an instant without Him. Nothing can be done without His support. But usually, human beings are not aware of this - they act as though they were independent, they focus on external things and temporary goals, and never give any time to God. Hence they are not aware of God or of any Divine action whether aimed at their individual liberation, collective planetary evolution, or both. Yoga is the means to become aware. In this case, with Sri Krishna, the emphasis is on Bhakti, devotion and love, but there are other forms of yoga.

The point about people serving God's purpose without knowing it is also true - Krishna Himself tells Arjuana that all beings follow His path in all respects. But there is a huge difference between a conscious and an unconscious instrument of His purpose! Surrender to Krishna means just that - to seek to become a conscious servant of His will. Not a puppet in the hands of unconscious forces.

Hare Krishna!

[BlackBillBlake]

BBB, Sri Krishna Prem looks most most saintly and gentle... he is very beautiful... most obvious that Radha and Krishna have taken shelter in his heart.

Chief, thats just what I felt too! :) He is truly a radiant being.

Hare Krishna!

Om Shanti!

[Kharakov]

But there is a huge difference between a conscious and an unconscious instrument of His purpose! Surrender to Krishna means just that - to seek to become a conscious servant of His will. Not a puppet in the hands of unconscious forces.
Awesome.

[sleeping jiva]

Well said BBB! WE must get out of Krishna's material energies. And He wants us. If we were completely dependent on Him, we wouldn't enjoy our love to Him. This is basicaly the reason why we suffer. We must understand our true position.

[sleeping jiva]

I just found a huge collections of films of Srila Prabhupada on the net! They're free to donwload and in quite high quality!!! go check it out, I'm just downloading the 4th part. Prabhupada dancing at some festival jumping like a youngster -it's worth watching!

Jay Prabhupada!

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

I just found a huge collections of films of Srila Prabhupada on the net! They're free to donwload and in quite high quality!!! go check it out, I'm just downloading the 4th part. Prabhupada dancing at some festival jumping like a youngster -it's worth watching!

Jay Prabhupada!They are very lovely...and everyone is soo happy in them...

Here's the link...btw....lol...

http://www.audarya-fellowship.com/showflat/cat/websites/75340/0/collapsed/5/o/1

:) Hare Krishna!

[sleeping jiva]

i'm sorry I forgot the link!!! haha

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

i'm sorry I forgot the link!!! haha
lol....that's ok...we still love you!!! :) :)

Hare Krishna!

[sleeping jiva]

Please, love Krishna instead, who am I ? just a poor man in hands of maya

[Kharakov]

The maya of D.C. smoked crack.

[ChiefCowpie]

good point kharakov, which is why one doesn't wanna remain a poor man in the hands of the maya of D. C. so one too doesn't end up smoking crack

[Kharakov]

good point kharakov, which is why one doesn't wanna remain a poor man in the hands of the maya of D. C. so one too doesn't end up smoking crackI have smoked a bunch of crack, basically because I had faith that God brought it to me. After a bit, I got sick of the lifestyle. I guess being a crackhead isn't my calling (or all its cracked up to be). I would have noided if I didn't know God was with me when I was involved in that scene. All in all, the spiritual rush is Good too, and it comes without a price tag.

[BlackBillBlake]

Hare Krishna!

Dear Kharakov,

A lot of people have problems with hard drugs. Its good that you are coming away from that scene. I hope God will give you stregnth to stay away from it.
With the 'spiritual rush' there's no price tag in money - its a matter just of being sincere. Krishna sees what is in our hearts. And there's no price to be paid in health terms.
Drugs like Cocaine, Heroin etc don't really take one closer to God. They induce a temporary and artificial happiness, sense of confidence, and so on. And when it wears off, one is plumetted back down into all the negatives - only with the added social & other problems they bring. But I'm not trying to lecture anyone on drugs - I'm sure that isn't necessary.
I just want to wish you Krishna's grace and blessings.

[ChiefCowpie]

http://www.gaudiyadiscussions.com/uploads/post-6-1098966995_thumb.jpg (http://www.gaudiyadiscussions.com/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=1031)


New Indian Guru

[sleeping jiva]

does he serves Krishna?

[ChiefCowpie]

Residents of Nabadwip Dham, locally called "night-birds": Fruit-eating flying dogs.

Attached image(s)
http://www.gaudiyadiscussions.com/uploads/post-31-1087244707.jpg

[ChiefCowpie]

Typical farm-house at Ekachakra, Sri Nitai's appearance place.

Attached image(s)
http://www.gaudiyadiscussions.com/uploads/post-31-1087245648.jpg

[ChiefCowpie]

A Dham-bhasi making muri, puff-rice.

Attached image(s)
http://www.gaudiyadiscussions.com/uploads/post-31-1087246069.jpg

[ChiefCowpie]

Hanuman: A friendly Nabadwip Dham resident on her daily tour through the town. (The leader of the harem may be dangerous, though, when confronted.)

Attached image(s)
http://www.gaudiyadiscussions.com/uploads/post-31-1087246813.jpg

[ChiefCowpie]

does he serves Krishna?
He is pure devotee #1 of Krishna. It is very important that we all love and adore him.

[BlackBillBlake]

He is pure devotee #1 of Krishna. It is very important that we all love and adore him.

Hare Krishna!

Shri Charu Chaitanya Maharaj!

He looks and sounds great and extraordinary. Do you know where any further info on Him can be found? His picture has that aura about it.....Perhaps He is coming straight from the Supreme.
Thanks Chief Cowpie for posting the item about Him. :)

[sleeping jiva]

Ok. Cool! I just couldn't find anything about Krishna in the article. Remember if one's propagating himself more than Krishna, it's not a true guru.

[BlackBillBlake]

Hare Krishna!


Dear Sleeping Jiva,

I would ask you this: did Jesus Christ ever mention Krishna? And if not, are we to reject His message? He also put Himself forward on many occaisions 'I am the Light, the Truth and the Way' etc.
IMHO spiritual teachers, Gurus etc stand or fall entirely on their own merits and realization. In ISKCON are many who talk of Krishna all the time, whilst simultaneously engaging in many nefarious activities, aimed mostly at their own self-aggrandizement. Thus, their speaking of Krishna is useless, and they are misleading others.
With Sri Charu Chaitanyaji Maharaj, we know little about him, other than what the item posted by Chief Cowpie tells us - ( a web search turned up no further info) but when it mentions Srimad Bhagawat Katha, I think we can safely assume that Krishna is the centre of such Katha. If He cooses to elevate a boy of nine to this position, it is up to Him. 'Official spiritual masters' may object, but that simply shows their lack of true God-Consciousness.
Look at any average nine-year-old, then look again at Him. This seems to me like more of Krishna's play. It shows how mere book learning is quite insufficient - true Knowledge has to be realized. Perhaps this 'boy' is some great master returned here to help up-lift mankind. I don't doubt that we shall hear more of Him as time goes on.

Love,

BBB.

[ChiefCowpie]

Ok. Cool! I just couldn't find anything about Krishna in the article. Remember if one's propagating himself more than Krishna, it's not a true guru.
dunno much about him... just thought the article was interesting... maybe he's a Rama bhakta and so he doesn't do much Krishna propagating

i believe all should be love and adored and so i honor his personage

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

If He cooses to elevate a boy of nine to this position, it is up to Him. 'Official spiritual masters' may object, but that simply shows their lack of true God-Consciousness.
Look at any average nine-year-old, then look again at Him. This seems to me like more of Krishna's play. It shows how mere book learning is quite insufficient - true Knowledge has to be realized. Perhaps this 'boy' is some great master returned here to help up-lift mankind. I don't doubt that we shall hear more of Him as time goes on.

Love,

BBB.
I kind of agree with you...something so special coming from a nine year old...it seams to be perhaps something a little extraordinary... and its so easy to be suspicious because of the cheats and liars in this world...but just, at least once, can't we believe that amidst all the technology and higher learning...that there is still room for miracles, unexplainables....it almost seams that since we've come "so far" that we think we don't need any help...but I sure think we still do...maybe this time its coming from a nine year old boy for the shear fact that we need to swollow our pride...out of the mouths of the innocents come the keys to the truth....or something like that...

Hare Krishna!

*Peace and Love*
Nicole

[sleeping jiva]

Ms. Nixon: How can one tell a bona fide spiritual master from a fake?

Srila Prabhupada: Whoever teaches how to know God and how to love Him--he is a spiritual master. Sometimes bogus rascals mislead people. "1 am God," they claim, and people who do not know what God is believe them. You must be a serious student to understand who God is and how to love Him. Otherwise, you will simply waste your time. So the difference between others and us is that we are the only movement that can actually teach one how to know God and how to love Him. We are presenting the science of how one can know Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, by practicing the teachings of the Bhagavad-gita and the Srimad-Bhagavatam. They teach us that our only business is to love God. Our business is not to ask God for our necessities. God gives necessities to everyone--even to one who has no religion. For example, cats and dogs have no religion, yet Krsna supplies them with the necessities of life. So why should we bother Krsna for our daily bread? He is already supplying it. Real religion means to learn how to love Him. The Srimad-Bhagavatam (1.2.6) says,



sa vai pumsam paro dharmo

yato bhaktir adhoksaje

ahaituky apratihata

yayatma suprasidati



First-class religion teaches one how to love God without any motive. If I serve God for some profit, that is business--not love. Real love of God is ahaituky apratihata: it cannot be checked by any material cause. It is unconditional. If one actually wants to love God, there is no impediment. One can love Him whether one is poor or rich, young or old, black or white.