hare krishna [Archive] - Page 4

SvgGrdnBeauty

08-23-2004, 06:42 PM

Remember reading that Krishna came in the form of Buddha...I think this defenetely proves this:

The First Noble Truth:
Life is suffering i.e., life includes pain, getting old, disease, and ultimately death. We also endure psychological suffering like loneliness frustration, fear, embarrassment, disappointment and anger. This is an irrefutable fact that cannot be denied. It is realistic rather than pessimistic because pessimism is expecting things to be bad. lnstead, Buddhism explains how suffering can be avoided and how we can be truly happy.
The Second Noble Truth:>
Suffering is caused by craving and aversion. We will suffer if we expect other people to conform to our expectation, if we want others to like us, if we do not get something we want,etc. In other words, getting what you want does not guarantee happiness. Rather than constantly struggling to get what you want, try to modify your wanting. Wanting deprives us of contentment and happiness. A lifetime of wanting and craving and especially the craving to continue to exist, creates a powerful energy which causes the individual to be born. So craving leads to physical suffering because it causes us to be reborn.
The Third Noble Truth:
Suffering can be overcome and happiness can be attained; true happiness and contentment are possible. lf we give up useless craving and learn to live each day at a time (not dwelling in the past or the imagined future) then we can become happy and free. We then have more time and energy to help others. This is Nirvana.
The Fourth Noble Truth: The 8 Fold Path:
The Noble 8-fold Path is being moral (through what we say, do and our livelihood), focussing the mind on being fully aware of our thoughts and actions, and developing wisdom by understanding the Four Noble Truths and by developing compassion for others.

The Five Precepts:
The moral code within Buddhism is the precepts, of which the main five are: not to take the life of anything living, not to take anything not freely given, to abstain from sexual misconduct and sensual overindulgence, to refrain from untrue speech, and to avoid intoxication, that is, losing mindfulness.

Karma:
Karma is the law that every cause has an effect, i.e., our actions have results. This simple law explains a number of things: inequality in the world, why some are born handicapped and some gifted, why some live only a short life. Karma underlines the importance of all individuals being responsible for their past and present actions. How can we test the karmic effect of our actions? The answer is summed up by looking at (1) the intention behind the action, (2) effects of the action on oneself, and (3) the effects on others.

Buddhism teaches that wisdom should be developed with compassion. At one extreme, you could be a goodhearted fool and at the other extreme, you could attain knowledge without any emotion. Buddhism uses the middle path to develop both. The highest wisdom is seeing that in reality, all phenomena are incomplete, impermanent and do no constitute a fixed entity. True wisdom is not simply believing what we are told but instead experiencing and understanding truth and reality. Wisdom requires an open, objective, unbigoted mind. The Buddhist path requires courage, patience, flexibility and intelligence. Compassion includes qualities of sharing, readiness to give comfort, sympathy, concern, caring. In Buddhism, we can really understand others, when we can really understand ourselves, through wisdom.

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:) Sounds strangely familliar, eh? lol...

ChiefCowpie

08-23-2004, 08:58 PM

http://www.salagram.net/Advaita_Acarya.jpg
SRI ADVAITA ACARYA

guru with long hairs...here he is offering Tulasi leaves to his Salagrama Sila praying for the advent Mahaprabhu

BlackBillBlake

08-23-2004, 09:08 PM

Buddhism is ok, but it differs from Krishna Consciouss philosophy in several ways. The main difference is that ultimately the Buddhists don't believe in a personal god,( or indeed any God ) the absolute for them, the Dharma Kaya,is impersonal. It corresponds very closely to Shankara's concept of Brahman. The absolute without qualities, or Nirguna Brahman, whilst Krishna is said to be Saguna Brahman.

It's true that there are many personal forms of the Buddha, but these are held to be on a lower level - Sambhogya Kaya, Nirmana Kaya, the Buddhas on a higher spiritual plane,similar to the Vedic Devas, and incarnate here respectively, as in the case of Gautama, the historical Buddha.
The goal of Buddhism is also concieved differently - for the Buddhist, the goal is Nirvana, a merging of individual being into the impersonal absolute, this is concieved of as the end of the individual being.
The Bhagavad Gita says that the soul,Atman,is eternally a spiritual individual. Its not that with liberation we will cease to be individual - the false ego-consciousness will be gone, but still, we remain as individuals in a relation to our source, God.
Please understand that I am not knocking Buddhism - I am only pointing out what are the differences, according to my understanding.

Hari Om.

ChiefCowpie

08-23-2004, 09:19 PM

ditto to BBB, Buddhist thought can be said to be one of not saying there is or isn't a God but an exploration of reality where one finds the truth when one arrives there... in K. C. we are given many premeditated realities such as Krishna being God without having the actual experience of that or the Heirarchal make up of the universe with Pitamaha Brahma at the head...much knowledge may thus cloud one's perception of the truth...in this regards, Mahaprabhu himself would proclaim "all i know of Krishna is that He's the son of Maharaja Nanda"... our learning from this is to chant the Holy Names in a loving and humble state without the encumbrances of knowledge and so we can see even in K. C., the values of the Buddhist perspective of having an innocent and passionate quest for truth and understanding via the path of compassion

SvgGrdnBeauty

08-23-2004, 09:32 PM

BlackBillBlake

08-23-2004, 10:09 PM

I don't think that Krishna says specifically that He was Buddha. But Krishna is the original form - the Supreme Godhead, from whom all other Divine Incarnations are expanded.

This is what Krishna says in ch. IV of the Gita

TEXT 6

ajo 'pi sann avyayatma

bhutanam isvaro 'pi san

prakrtim svam adhisthaya

sambhavamy atma-mayaya

SYNONYMS

ajah--unborn; api--although; san--being so; avyaya--without deterioration; atma--body; bhutanam--all those who are born; isvarah--the Supreme Lord; api--although; san--being so; prakrtim--transcendental form; svam--of Myself; adhisthaya--being so situated; sambhavami--I do incarnate; atma-mayaya--by My internal energy.

TRANSLATION

Although I am unborn and My transcendental body never deteriorates, and although I am the Lord of all sentient beings, I still appear in every millennium in My original transcendental form.

TEXT 7

yada yada hi dharmasya

glanir bhavati bharata

abhyutthanam adharmasya

tadatmanam srjamy aham

SYNONYMS

yada--whenever; yada--wherever; hi--certainly; dharmasya--of religion; glanih--discrepancies; bhavati--manifested, becomes; bharata--O descendant of Bharata; abhyutthanam--predominance; adharmasya--of irreligion; tada--at that time; atmanam--self; srjami--manifest; aham--I.

TRANSLATION

Whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious practice, O descendant of Bharata, and a predominant rise of irreligion--at that time I descend Myself.

TEXT 8

paritranaya sadhunam

vinasaya ca duskrtam

dharma-samsthapanarthaya

sambhavami yuge yuge

SYNONYMS

paritranaya--for the deliverance; sadhunam--of the devotees; vinasaya--for the annihilation; ca--also; duskrtam--of the miscreants; dharma--principles of religion; samsthapana-arthaya--to reestablish; sambhavami--I do appear; yuge--millennium; yuge--after millennium.

TRANSLATION

In order to deliver the pious and to annihilate the miscreants, as well as to reestablish the principles of religion, I advent Myself millennium after millennium.

ChiefCowpie

08-23-2004, 10:13 PM

Having made their plot, the Buddhists brought a plate of untouchable food before Lord Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and called it maha-prasada. When the contaminated food was offered to Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, a very large bird appeared on the spot, picked up the plate in its beak and flew away. Indeed, the untouchable food fell upon the Buddhists, and the large bird dropped the plate on the head of the chief Buddhist Stoka Krishna dasa (http://www.krishna.org/?author=Stoka Krishna dasa) (11-28-03)

Here is an interesting pastime of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu taken from the Chaitanya Charitamrita.

There are many kinds of philosophers. Some are logicians who follow Gautama or Kanada. Some follow the Mimamsa philosophy of Jaimini. Some follow the Mayavada philosophy of Shankaracarya, and others follow Kapila's Sankhya philosophy or the mystic yoga system of Patanjali. Some follow the smriti-shastra composed of twenty religious scriptures, and others follow the Puranas and the tantra-shastra. In this way there are many different types of philosophers. All of these adherents of various scriptures were ready to present the conclusions of their respective scriptures, but Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu broke all their opinions to pieces and established His own cult of bhakti based on the Vedas, Vedanta, the Brahma-sutra and the philosophy of acintya-bhedabheda-tattva. Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu established the devotional cult everywhere. No one could defeat Him.

Being thus defeated by Lord Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, all these philosophers and their followers entered into His cult. In this way Lord Chaitanya made South India into a country of Vaisnavas. When the nonbelievers heard of the erudition of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, they came to Him with great pride, bringing their disciples with them. One of them was a leader of the Buddhist cult and was a very learned scholar. To establish the nine philosophical conclusions of Buddhism, he came before the Lord and began to speak. Although the Buddhists are unfit for discussion and should not be seen by Vaisnavas, Chaitanya Mahaprabhu spoke to them just to decrease their false pride. The scriptures of the Buddhist cult are chiefly based on argument and logic, and they contain nine chief principles. Because Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu defeated them in their argument, they could not establish their cult. The teacher of the Buddhist cult set forth the nine principles, but Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu broke them to pieces with His strong logic.

All mental speculators and learned scholars were defeated by Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, and when the people began to laugh, the Buddhist philosophers felt both shame and fear. The Buddhists could understand that Lord Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu was a Vaisnava, and they returned home very unhappy. Later, however, they began to plot against the Lord.

Having made their plot, the Buddhists brought a plate of untouchable food before Lord Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and called it maha-prasada. When the contaminated food was offered to Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, a very large bird appeared on the spot, picked up the plate in its beak and flew away. Indeed, the untouchable food fell upon the Buddhists, and the large bird dropped the plate on the head of the chief Buddhist teacher. When it fell on his head, it made a big sound. The plate was made of metal, and when its edge hit the head of the teacher, it cut him, and the teacher immediately fell to the ground unconscious.

When the teacher fell unconscious, his Buddhist disciples cried aloud and ran to the lotus feet of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu for shelter. They all prayed to Lord Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, addressing Him as the Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself and saying, "Sir, please excuse our offense. Please have mercy upon us and bring our spiritual master back to life." The Lord then replied to the Buddhist disciples, "You should all chant the names of Krishna and Hari very loudly near the ear of your spiritual master. "By this method your spiritual master will regain his consciousness."

Following Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu's advice, all the Buddhist disciples began to chant the holy name of Krishna congregationally. When all the disciples chanted the holy names Krishna, Rama and Hari, the Buddhist teacher regained consciousness and immediately began to chant the holy name of Lord Hari. When the spiritual master of the Buddhists began to chant the holy name of Krishna and submitted to Lord Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, all the people who were gathered there were astonished. Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, the son of Sachidevi, then suddenly and humorously disappeared from everyone's sight, and it was impossible for anyone to find Him.

End of Story

Yours in service of Lord Krishna, Stoka Krishna Dasa.

ChiefCowpie

08-23-2004, 10:22 PM

I don't think that Krishna says specifically that He was Buddha. But Krishna is the original form - the Supreme Godhead, from whom all other Divine Incarnations are expanded.not specifically but kind of...anyways, it would be more accurate to say Buddha is an avatara of Visnu and not Krishna...Krishna is the source of all avataras but that is not to say that all avataras are Krishna... and too, from the Srimad Bhagavatam, it is not specific whether Buddha is a Plenenary Avatara or a Sakyavesa Avatara (empowered jivatma for specific purpose)

and too, even if Buddha is avatara of Krishna...Visnu, Mahaprabhu has clearly delineated that Buddhist philosophy is not Vaisnava

http://www.srimadbhagavatam.org/images/headerpage.gif Canto 1

http://www.srimadbhagavatam.org/images/chapt.button.gifChapter 3

Krishna is the Source of All Incarnations

(1) (http://www.srimadbhagavatam.org/canto1/chapter3.html#Text 1) "The Lord as the purusha accepted the universal form of the material world with its sixteen principles of material action to make a start with His creation. (2) (http://www.srimadbhagavatam.org/canto1/chapter3.html#Text 2) Dormant in the water, from that navel sprouted out of the lotus of manifestation Brahmâ, the father of all beings as the creator.http://www.srimadbhagavatam.org/images/bimages/garbod.vishnu.GIF(3) (http://www.srimadbhagavatam.org/canto1/chapter3.html#Text 3) It is imagined that the purusha, from the excellence of His existence, expanded into all the worlds. (4) (http://www.srimadbhagavatam.org/canto1/chapter3.html#Text 4) His form seen perfectly thus has numerous legs, thighs, arms and faces, with wonderful heads, ears, eyes and noses, all glowing with garlands and dresses. (5) (http://www.srimadbhagavatam.org/canto1/chapter3.html#Text 5) These multifarious incarnations are the indestructible source from which all the godly, human and animal beings originate.

(6) (http://www.srimadbhagavatam.org/canto1/chapter3.html#Text 6) At first the sons of Brahmâ [the Kumâras] were disciplined in austerity for the realization of continuation. (7) (http://www.srimadbhagavatam.org/canto1/chapter3.html#Text 7) Incarnated next for the sake of its welfare, He, like a boar, uplifted the world out the lower regions. (8) (http://www.srimadbhagavatam.org/canto1/chapter3.html#Text 8) Thirdly He accepted His presence among the learned (rishis) [as Nârada Muni] for the sake of evolving vedic knowledge for service in devotion without further material motives. (9) (http://www.srimadbhagavatam.org/canto1/chapter3.html#Text 9) Fourth born as the twin sons of king Dharma in the form of Nara-Nârâyana He underwent severe penances to attain control over the senses. (10) (http://www.srimadbhagavatam.org/canto1/chapter3.html#Text 10) Fifth with the name of Kapila He gave an exposition to the brahmin Âsuri on the nature of metaphysics and the elements of creation as through time the knowledge was lost. (11) (http://www.srimadbhagavatam.org/canto1/chapter3.html#Text 11) Sixth, born as the son of Atri from Anasûyâ who prayed for Him, He lectured to Alarka, Prahlâda and others about the transcendental. (12) (http://www.srimadbhagavatam.org/canto1/chapter3.html#Text 12) Seventh born from Âkûti as Yajn'a, the son of Prajâpati Ruci He, assisted by the godly, ruled over the change of the period of Svâyambhuva Manu together with His son Yama and others. (13) (http://www.srimadbhagavatam.org/canto1/chapter3.html#Text 13) Eighth, from the wife of King Nâbhi, Merudevî He took birth as King Rishabha and showed the path of perfection respected by people of all stages of life. (14) (http://www.srimadbhagavatam.org/canto1/chapter3.html#Text 14) Accepting His ninth incarnation from prayers by the sages, He ruled [as Prithu] the earth for the sake of its cultivation and produces, which made it beautifully attractive. (15) (http://www.srimadbhagavatam.org/canto1/chapter3.html#Text 15) Like a fish [Mâtsya] in the water He kept Vaivasvata Manu after the period of Câkshusha Manu on a boat of protection afloat the waters when the world was deeply inundated. (16) (http://www.srimadbhagavatam.org/canto1/chapter3.html#Text 16) Eleventh as a tortoise [Kurma] He sustained the Mandarâcala Hill of the theïsts and atheists which served as a pivot in the ocean. (17) (http://www.srimadbhagavatam.org/canto1/chapter3.html#Text 17) Twelfth was Dhanvantari [Lord of medicine] and thirteenth He appeared as an alluring beautiful woman to the atheists while giving nectar to the godly. (18) (http://www.srimadbhagavatam.org/canto1/chapter3.html#Text 18) His fourteenth incarnation He appeared as Nrsimha, who with His nails half as a Lion on His lap tore apart the king of the atheists like a carpenter does cane. (19) (http://www.srimadbhagavatam.org/canto1/chapter3.html#Text 19) In His sixteenth incarnation [as Bhrigupati] He acted twenty-one times against the ruling class that negated the intelligentsia. (20) (http://www.srimadbhagavatam.org/canto1/chapter3.html#Text 20) Fifteenth He assumed the form of Vâmana [the dwarf-brâhmana] who, from the arena of sacrifice of Mahârâja Bali, begged only for three steps of land, while at heart willing to return to the kingdom of the three worlds. (21) (http://www.srimadbhagavatam.org/canto1/chapter3.html#Text 21) Seeing the common people as being less intelligent He seventeenth incarnated as Vyâsadeva from Satyavatî by Parâs'ara Muni, to divide the desire tree of the Veda into several branches. (22) (http://www.srimadbhagavatam.org/canto1/chapter3.html#Text 22) Next He performed superhuman in controlling the Indian Ocean having assumed the form of a divine human being [Râma] in order to act for the sake of the Godly. (23) (http://www.srimadbhagavatam.org/canto1/chapter3.html#Text 23) Nineteenth as well as twentiest He appeared as Balarâma and Krishna from the Vrishni-family and thus Bhagavân removed the burden from the world. (24) (http://www.srimadbhagavatam.org/canto1/chapter3.html#Text 24) Thereafter in the Age of Kali His birth as Lord Buddha from An'jana in Gayâ will take place in order to delude the ones envious with the theists. (25) (http://www.srimadbhagavatam.org/canto1/chapter3.html#Text 24) Following that at the conjunction of two Yugas when there is hardly a ruler found that is not a plunderer, the Lord of Creation will take birth with the name of Kalki as the son of Vishnu Yas'â.

ChiefCowpie

08-23-2004, 10:36 PM

yes...I see what you are both saying. I know that the Buddhists to not believe in a personal God...but I did read somewhere the reason was because when Buddha came people were not following Vedic principals, they were performing animal sacrifices and what have you, so Krishna came as Buddha and taught in that way, never saying anything about a personal God, because it was better to turn the people away from the animal sacrifices and what not...and little did they know that it was He, Krishna, who was Buddha...that's why I posted the above because it made me think of that and I do believe that Krishna was Buddha because a lot of the bit that I posted is very similar to what Krishna says in Bhagavad-Gita (where I believe He also said that he came as the Buddha)....

http://www.webcom.com/~ara/col/books/BG/gita/bg11.jpg
the story goes that folks were doing animal sacrifices (which are vedic) for the sole purpose of eating meat (which is not vedic) and so Buddha advented himself to deny the Vedas...and too, at this time, vedic thought had deteriorated quite a bit as so many gods and goddesses were worshipped without the understanding on the monotheistic unifying web so Buddha found it easiest to toss out the kit and kaboodle of Vedic thought..."if the Vedas teach this, then I deny the Vedas"

and it is Srimad Bhagavatam that directly describes Buddha as Avatara and not Bhagavad Gita

SvgGrdnBeauty

08-24-2004, 12:14 AM

the story goes that folks were doing animal sacrifices (which are vedic) for the sole purpose of eating meat (which is not vedic) and so Buddha advented himself to deny the Vedas...and too, at this time, vedic thought had deteriorated quite a bit as so many gods and goddesses were worshipped without the understanding on the monotheistic unifying web so Buddha found it easiest to toss out the kit and kaboodle of Vedic thought..."if the Vedas teach this, then I deny the Vedas"

and it is Srimad Bhagavatam that directly describes Buddha as Avatara and not Bhagavad Gita

That's the story...wrong book...sorry there... I haven't read the whole Srimad Bhagavatam... (or even made a dent)...but I do remember that story...

...sorry if I misunderstood...

ChiefCowpie

08-24-2004, 12:38 AM

Krishna Das Babaji Maharaj

Bhakti Bibudh Bodhayan
Though Krishna Das Babaji lived in one tiny corner of the world, his life offers a beacon-like example for all humanity, sending out the powerful message of how everyone can seek out and find happiness in the Divine through taking shelter of the Maha Mantra.

HARE KRISHNA HARE KRISHNA KRISHNA KRISHNA HARE HARE
HARE RAMA HARE RAMA RAMA RAMA HARE HARE.
All around the world, everyone is looking for happiness in the various sources of mundane pleasure without understanding that the true fountainhead of pleasure is the Supreme Lord alone. In this age of quarrel and hypocrisy, the master and controller of ultimate joy has given us a simple and efficient means of achieving spiritual perfection. He has Himself become present in this world in His own names and has set no restrictive rules or regulations for chanting them. His only instruction is to chant these Holy Names always and everywhere. Through the chanting of these Holy Names, all of one’s desires will be fulfilled. Krishna Das Babaji’s extraordinary life is living proof that all this is true.

Srila Krishna Das Babaji Maharaj was born a little over a century ago in a respectable family in Bikrampur in the present-day Dhaka district of Bangladesh. He was related to Chittaranjan Das, a famous lawyer and activist for Indian independence. He himself graduated with honors from Dhaka University with a BA degree and seemed headed for an illustrious career in law. However, Krishna Das had a strong thirst for spiritual life. His parents were very pious and made regular pilgrimages to the holy places along the Ganges like Prayag, Benares, Hardwar and Rishikesh. Krishna Das had himself been to Hardwar and Rishikesh several times, but each time returned home disappointed, for he had been searching for a Sat Guru all his life and yet found no solace in the impersonalist doctrines taught by most holy men in these places.

In 1920, the founder of the Gaudiya Math, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Prabhupada, visited Dhaka with his entire preaching party. Krishna Das came to Srila Prabhupada’s program, and as soon as he saw Srila Prabhupada immediately recognized him as his eternal spiritual master and decided to take initiation from him. It was as though his desires to find a genuine spiritual teacher were fulfilled at the very moment he was losing all hope of doing so. Saraswati Thakur’s discourses were for him like the final arrival of the rains after a long, parching dry summer. A year later, Srila Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Goswami Thakur accepted him as his disciple and gave him the brahmachari name of Sadhikananda Das.

Sadhikananda had always been independent-minded and after initiation decided to commit himself fully to the practice of chanting the Holy Name, following the example of Lord Chaitanya’s associate Hari Das Thakur. He came to stay at the Chaitanya Math in Mayapur where he would remain in the brahmachari dormitory all day long to chant the Maha Mantra non-stop behind closed doors. All of this was, of course, in line with Srila Prabhupada’s instructions, but Sadhikananda was soon put to the test, not from outside forces, but from his own godbrothers. Such is the nature of the age we live in.

Many of the other devotees felt that Sadhikananda was neglecting the other menial tasks around the Math usually given to the brahmacharis and thought that his imitation of Hari Das Thakur’s exalted example was artificial. Sadhikananda was eating the math’s food but not making a contribution to its upkeep. They complained to Srila Prabhupada and were surprised to hear the master defend his disciple. One day, after having heard these complaints again and again, Srila Prabhupada said, “If any of you are able to chant like Sadhikananda, you will get all your food and board without any other obligation. Krishna is the proprietor of all things. Taking complete shelter of His holy names means to take full shelter of Him. I want all of you to take shelter of the Lord and His name. If we can do this, then the Lord Himself will us send more of His servants to take care of the other aspects of temple service.”

On hearing Srila Prabhupada’s words, some of the complainers tried to imitate Sadhikananda, but none was able to match his natural enthusiasm for chanting. Within a few days, all of them had returned to their habitual service. As a result, all their criticisms stopped. Even so, Sadhikananda felt uneasy about staying in the math after this incident. Fearing that the master would again be pestered by those critical of his activities, he one night quietly paid his obeisances to Srila Prabhupada and set off on foot for Rishikesh, a famous holy place where impersonalist renunciates go to meditate. His intention was to devote himself exclusively to the chanting of the Holy Name and set an example for the Mayavadis. His message was: “Give up your idea that worshiping the Lord is imaginary. The Lord has descended as His own holy name. So just take shelter of the Maha Mantra: Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare, Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare. This way you will achieve success in your efforts at perfecting spiritual life.”

In the meantime, Srila Prabhupada was distressed by Sadhikananda’s departure and asked his disciples to do whatever they could to bring him back. Srila Bon Maharaj, an unparallelled orator to whom Srila Prabhupada first confided the task of preaching Lord Chaitanya’s message in the West, went to Hardwar and told Sadhikananda that Prabhupada wanted him to come back to Sri Mayapur. Sadhikananda could not disobey and returned to Mayapur with Bon Maharaj.

On his return, Srila Prabhupada gave Sadhikananda a separate room and told him clearly that his only duty was to chant Hare Krishna. With Srila Prabhupada’s blessings, Sadhikananda would chant the Holy Names in kirtan for eight hours every day and then on his beads for the remaining sixteen. A few devotees did not believe that he was really chanting for all twenty-four hours of every day and decided to investigate; but were astonished to find that it was indeed true. Some others again tried to imitate his lifestyle, but were still unable to do so.

No one could understand how Sadhikananda could chant for twenty-four hours a day, but the mercy of the spiritual master is such that it makes all things possible -- the dumb become eloquent and the lame climb mountains. After reciting the Srimad Bhagavatam for a full seven days, Srila Shukadeva Goswami asked Parikshit Maharaj whether he was hungry or tired. Parikshit replied, “The Srimad Bhagavatam is the wish-fulfilling tree of the Vedas, the essence of all Upanishads. Hearing it gives me the sweetest taste of fruit nectar, rasa malai. By your grace, I have been drinking this rasa malai over the past seven days, so I am not feeling hungry at all.” The nectar of the Holy Name is such that when one gets a taste for it, one forgets even food and sleep.

Sadhikananda Brahmachari thus had no interest in eating fine prasadam or wearing opulent clothes. He used to wear a very short dhoti. He lived according to Mahaprabhu’s instruction to Raghunath Das Goswami: bhälo nä khäibe, bhälo nä paribe, which means not to eat or dress well. After initiation, Sadhikananda Brahmachari was ready to refuse any opulent food or dress for the rest of his life. Instead of seeking material comforts, he chanted very carefully, like Hari Das Thakur, teaching us all that chanting the Holy Name is the essence of human life in Kali Yuga.

Approximately two or three months before Srila Prabhupada’s physical departure from this world, Sadhikananda had a very significant dream. He saw a great procession of devotees led by an elephant and followed by thousands of golden chariots, winding from Calcutta to Mayapur. Heading this procession was Ananta Vasudeva Prabhu, who sat on the elephant. Ananta Vasudeva was a learned scholar, known as Srila Prabhupada’s right-hand man. Some called him Ganesh, because he served as Prabhupada’s amanuensis, copying down his lectures for posterity. In the dream, Ananta Vasudeva was being followed by the rest of his godbrothers on the golden chariots. Everyone was engaged in an ecstatic kirtan. Before they passed through the Sri Chaitanya Math’s gate, however, the elephant went mad and picked up Ananta Vasudeva with its trunk, threw him onto the ground, and crushed him under its feet. Panic spread through the other devotees and the joyful chanting was completely disrupted. Sadhikananda saw the same dream for two days at different times.

I recently heard about this dream from Sripad Hariprasad Das Babaji of Nandagram, a disciple of Bhakti Vilasa Tirtha Maharaj who was Babaji Maharaj’s personal assistant and served him over the last few months of his life. Sadhikananda recognized that the dream was warning him of what was to take place in the Gaudiya Math after Srila Prabhupada’s departure. While he was wondering what he would do in that eventuality, Srila Prabhupada did indeed enter the eternal pastimes of Radha and Govinda on the morning of January 1, 1937. All the clocks in the Bagh Bazaar Gaudiya Math in Calcutta miraculously stopped at 5:30 marking the exact moment of his divine departure.

ChiefCowpie

08-24-2004, 12:39 AM

In the turmoil following Srila Prabhupada’s entry into maha samadhi, Sadhikananda kept aloof from all the politics and refused to join any of the various factions. He left Sri Chaitanya Math and began to wander throughout India, visiting many holy places and living on madhukari. For much of this time he was accompanied by my Guru Maharaj, Srila Bhakti Promode Puri Maharaj. The two friends would joyfully engage in Harinam Sankirtan on their voyages.

Finally, Sadhikananda Das decided to settle in Vrindavan to continue the service of constant chanting given him by Srila Prabhupada. He chose Davanala Kund in Vrindavan to be his place of bhajan. He found a cave near the Kund for living and chanting, like Hari Das Thakur when he resided near Shantipur in a cave inhabited by a poisonous snake. By living in this way, Hari Das Thakur showed us that the Holy Name is our ultimate protector in the Kali Yuga. Similarly, our Srila Sadhikananda Brahmachari gave us the same example by living in a cave near Davanala Kund for six years. While there, he used to take prasad from the nearby math of one of his Godbrothers, Jachak Maharaj.

Sadhikananda Brahmachari then moved to Nanda Maharaj’s garden (Nanda Bagicha), halfway between Teri Kadamba and Nandagram, where he stayed for the next six years, continuing to follow the same lifestyle. After that, he established himself at Sanatan Goswami Prabhu’s bhajan kutir near Pavan Sarovar. This became his permanent base for the rest of his life, even though he frequently traveled to the various different holy places of Vraja and Gaura Mandals.

After many years of life in full commitment to the Holy Name, Sadhikananda one day had a dream in which Vamsi Das Babaji Maharaj ordered him to take the dress of a renunciate, or babaji. Sadhikananda followed Vamsi Das’s order and accepted the babaji dress at Sanatan Goswami’s bhajan kutir at Nandagram in front of a picture of Srila Prabhupada. After taking the renounced order of life, Sadhikananda adopted the name Krishna Das, “servant of Krishna.” By the grace of the Holy Name, he became well known throughout the whole of Vraja Mandal by this name. Even so, for a long time after taking the babaji dress, he hardly spoke at all with anyone except to utter the Holy Name. As a result, many of the villagers used to call him Mauni Baba.

Krishna Das Babaji Maharaj came to know of his original form as a friend of Krishna through the chanting of Holy Name. It happened in the following way: On one of his parikramas around Vraja Mandal, Krishna Das stopped at the Dauji temple near Gokul. Just like Madhavendra Puri in Remuna, Babaji Maharaj sat down to chant and was dozing off when he suddenly woke with a start and began loudly shouting, “Please take me with you! Please take me with you!” He then fell senseless. The Brahmin servants of Dauji saw Babaji Maharaj lying unconscious and took proper care of him, bringing him back to his senses. When they asked him what had happened, he gave no answer. Later, however, he told some close friends what had transpired. He had seen Krishna and Balaram appear from the temple and head for the pasture with a herd of cows. But as they were leaving him behind, Krishna Das had started shouting to them to wait for him. After this incident, Babaji Maharaj always thought of himself as Krishna’s cowherd friend and preferred to sing kirtans connected to the mood of friendship (sakhya). Not only that, but he also cultivated a mood of friendship with all of his godbrothers.

In keeping with this mood of friendship, Babaji Maharaj always moved between the two Holy Dhams, Vrindavan and Nabadwip, the hidden Vrindavan in Bengal. He would spend six months of the year, from January to June, at different maths in Bengal. He mostly stayed at Sri Chaitanya Math, which had been established by his gurudeva, Srila Prabhupada, and in other maths established by his godbrothers, such as Sri Chaitanya Gaudiya Math of His Divine Grace Srila Bhakti Dayita Madhava Goswami Maharaj, Sri Chaitanya Saraswata Math of His Divine Grace Srila Bhakti Rakshaka Sridhar Deva Goswami Maharaj, Sri Devananda Gaudiya Math of Srila Bhakti Prajnan Keshava Goswami Maharaj, the Gaura Nityananda temple established by Bhakti Saranga Goswami Maharaj, and Sri Bhajan Ashram of His Divine Grace Srila Bhakti Hridoy Bon Maharaj. He would spend the other six months of the year in the different places in Vraja Mandal mentioned above.

While staying in the various maths of his godbrothers, Srila Babaji Maharaj would serve the Vaishnavas by leading the kirtans and playing the mridanga. The rest of time, he would chant the Holy Name on his beads. Through this service and his perennially jolly mood, Babaji Maharaj kept on friendly terms with all of his godbrothers. He had no enemy in the entire Vaishnava community. Everyone eagerly accepted his services; indeed, they all felt extremely fortunate whenever he came to stay in their math, even if it was just for a short while.

The above account shows that the Vaishnava’s curse is never really a curse, but a blessing. In the Srimad Bhagavatam, the Vaishnavas’ most beloved scripture, the story is told of how Nalakuvera and Manigriva, the sons of Kuvera, were cursed by Narada Muni to become trees. They stayed rooted to the ground in this form for a hundred years, at the end of which they were to be delivered from the curse by the grace of the Supreme Lord Krishna, the soul of all the universes. When Lord Krishna appeared, His devotee’s words bore fruit during His däma-bandhana-lélä. One day, after Krishna had done some naughty childish prank, His mother Yashoda punished Him by tying Him to a mortar near her husband Nanda’s barn. The words däma-bandhana-lélä are broken down as follows: däma means rope, bandhana means binding, and lélä means pastime. After Mother Yashoda had bound Krishna around the waist with a rope and tied Him to a mortar near the two arjun trees, which were in fact Nalakuvera and Manigriva, she left to do her duties in Nanda’s palace. The child Krishna took this opportunity to crawl between the two trees, dragging the heavy mortar behind Him. The mortar got caught and when Krishna tugged on it with His superhuman strength, the two trees crashed down to the ground in a moment with a great sound, frightening all the residents of the cowherd settlement. As soon as they had fallen, Nalakuvera and Manigriva were freed from Narada’s curse and regained their past forms along with the memory of their past life. They paid their obeisances to Krishna and offered Him prayers before happily returning to their original heavenly homes.

Similarly, though Krishna Das Babaji Maharaj was originally shunned by a few of his godbrothers, this mistreatment actually made him even more beloved of his gurudeva and attracted his special mercy. Through his constant chanting of the Holy Name, Babaji Maharaj was able to realize his original form as a cowherd companion of the Lord, associating with Him eteranally in His abode, Goloka.

Krishna Das Babaji Maharaj frequently travelled with his godbrothers when they called on him. In those days, my gurudeva, His Divine Grace Srila Bhakti Pramode Puri Goswami Maharaj, had no math or society of his own, so on occasion Srila Babaji Maharaj liked to go on pilgrimage with him, all the while maintaining his own bhajan practice. On one such pilgrimage, he accompanied my gurudeva and another godbrother, Srila Ratha Prabhu (who wrote many Vaishnava poems and was later known as Srila Bhakti Kamal Abadhut Maharaj) to Ayodhya, the land of Lord Ramachandra.

One day, Ratha Prabhu got very hungry and bought a few guavas in the market for the three of them to eat. There were many Ramanandi sages in the same place, each of whom had his own kamandalu (a metal water pot with a spout). Unaware that the Ramanandi sadhus prohibited anyone else from touching their water pots, Ratha Prabhu quite innocently took one of them to wash his guavas, without first asking for permission. As soon as he touched the kamandalu, however, its owner rushed up to him, snatched it and began to rebuke him in the most impolite language. The other assembled Ramanandi sadhus surrounded Ratha Prabhu and threatened to beat him up for his action. However, Srila Gurudeva and Srila Babaji Maharaj’s spiritual power took effect. They asked the sadhus why they were so angry. The Ramanandi answered, “If you fish-eating Bengalis touch my pot, it becomes contaminated and that will ruin my spiritual practice.” My spiritual master said, “You are mistaken. This man is our godbrother and a saintly man who strictly follows a vegetarian diet. No harmful effects will come from his touching your water pot.”

ChiefCowpie

08-24-2004, 12:41 AM

Some of the Ramanandis said, “Maybe he doesn’t eat fish, but his father surely did.” Guru Maharaj and Babaji Maharaj began to quote from various scriptures to prove that such an understanding was completely false, but they did it in such a humble and polite way that the Ramanandis calmed down and forgot their complaint. The spiritual strength of Srila Prabhupada’s three disciples and the scriptural arguments of Srila Puri Maharaj defused the situation and the Ramanandis left them alone.

This anecdote illustrates how Babaji Maharaj preached the glories of his spiritual master, Srila Prabhupada, and how he chanted the Holy Names purely. It also reminds us of how Sriman Mahaprabhu converted the Kazi and the victory of Srila Hari Das Thakur over his oppressors. Once Srila Hari Das Thakur was beaten by the soldiers of the local Muslim magistrate, the Kazi, because Hari Das would not comply with his order to stop chanting the Holy Name. The Kazi then told his followers to beat Hari Das Thakur in the twenty-one public squares under his jurisdiction. The grace of the Lord’s holy name protected Srila Hari Das Thakur from suffering any harm from this cruel punishment. In another incident, the Kazi of Nabadwip broke the mridanga drum used in kirtan at Srivas Pandit’s house and prohibited the public chanting of the Holy Names. As the representative of the Muslim king, the Kazi was feared by all the citizens of Nabadwip, but after he broke the mridanga, Mahaprabhu challenged him by organizing all His devotees into a large sankirtan party and leading them to the Kazi’s house to protest the ban. The Kazi became so afraid that he finally surrendered to Mahaprabhu’s lotus feet. Thus the Kazi became a full-fledged devotee of Mahaprabhu, even though he had been born in a Muslim family. Similarly, Babaji Maharaj’s pure devotional attitude had a transformative power over negative energies like anger.

By the grace of Srila Prabhupada and the Holy Name, Srila Babaji Maharaj was totally free from any kind of mundane attachment. He once bought a piece of land in Raman Reti in Vrindavan in order to establish his own preaching centre or math for the benefit of conditioned individuals like ourselves. He had received some financial backing from a householder devotee and began to buy building materials like bricks and sand, which were meant for a wall and a small building. When Babaji Maharaj went to his plot with a surveyor, however, he saw that the owner of the neighboring property had encroached on his land, appropriating about a foot of it from one side. When Babaji Maharaj complained, his neighbor would not agree to give up even an inch of the land he had taken. Babaji Maharaj became downcast to see such mundane aggressiveness and realized that the desire to own property was at the root of so many problems in life, especially if one wants to engage in bhajan. He immediately told the person, “My land and whatever materials are stored here are yours. I don’t want to get involved in mundane quarrels. Please take it all and do whatever you like with it.” The greedy neighbor was astonished to receive the magnanimity of Babaji Maharaj, and indeed was shamed by it. With this action Babaji Maharaj demonstrated the futility of fighting for acquisitions like land and buildings. The real value in our short lifespan comes from engaging in Hari bhajan.

Though Krishna Das Babaji Maharaj never swerved from Srila Prabhupada’s instruction to live simply and in full commitment to hearing, chanting and meditating on Lord Krishna, one cannot say that he did not serve his spiritual master’s preaching mission. I heard the following story from Sri Banwarilal Singhania, a businessman devotee based in Calcutta. Banwarilal and his entire family were very much drawn to Babaji Maharaj’s perfect Vaishnava humility and desired to render some service to his lotus feet, Babaji Maharaj repeatedly refused to take any form of service from them, but in accordance with his lifelong vow. Nevertheless, when Banwarilal approached him one day in his bhajan kutir at Pavan Sarovar and asked him once again how he could serve him, Babaji Maharaj replied that he would certainly engage him in his most worshipful spiritual master’s service when his gurudeva inspired him. This opportune moment did indeed come a short time thereafter.

Babaji Maharaj happened to be visiting Calcutta on a day when the Vaishnava calendar reported a total solar eclipse. He was staying at a grihastha Vaishnava’s temple and had committed himself to performing kirtan throughout the duration of the solar eclipse as is recommended in the Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition. Banwarilal heard about this and went to the temple with two friends to join Srila Babaji Maharaj in the kirtan. When the eclipse and the exhilarating kirtan came to an end, Srila Babaji Maharaj went to take a shower, chanting the prayers to the lotus feet of his Gurudeva composed by Srila B. R. Sridhar Maharaj (sujanArbudArAdhita-pAda-yugam). When he returned, he stood before Banwarilal and his friends with folded hands and said, “According to Vedic tradition, it is very auspicious to give in charity to a poor Brahmin. Although I am not a Brahmin…” Before he could finish his sentence, Sri Banwarilal got up, very excited and full of anticipation. He asked what he, an ordinary businessman, could possibly give in charity to a great devotee like Srila Babaji Maharaj.

Maharaj humbly replied that whereas all his godbrothers had over the years rendered valuable service to his worshipful spiritual master and his transcendental preaching mission, he himself had spent his days as a parasite, simply eating and sleeping at the expense of his Gurudeva’s mission. On this day, however, he had been inspired by his spiritual master to be instrumental in whatever way he could to assist his godbrother Srila Bhakti Dayita Madhava Goswami Maharaj in recovering the birth site of his spiritual master on the Grand Road in Jagannath Puri and building a monument there.

ChiefCowpie

08-24-2004, 12:42 AM

Banwarilal was so overwhelmed by Srila Babaji Maharaj’s humility and the wonderful opportunity to serve an eternal associate of the Supreme Lord that he immediately fell down at Babaji Maharaj’s lotus feet. He committed himself to becoming one of the most important contributors to the construction of the temple and sankirtan hall on the site. The cornerstone was laid on March 24, 1980 and the beautiful skyscraping temple, which houses Sriman Mahaprabhu and His alter ego, Jagannath Deva, was officially consecrated on February 5, 1982, the holy advent anniversary of Srila Prabhupada.

To this day Banwarilal is ever grateful to Srila Babaji Maharaj for having engaged him in this transcendental service. It may be said that we Gaudiya Vaishnavas who are spiritual descendants of His Divine Grace Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Goswami Thakur Prabhupada, the founder-acharya of the Sri Brahma Madhva Gaudiya Saraswata Sampradaya, are today able to offer our respect and obeisances to his lotus feet on the site of his birth through the direct mercy of Srila Krishna Das Babaji Maharaj.

Towards the end of his sojourn in this world, Babaji Maharaj manifested the pastime of appearing ill and was so taken by his well-wishers to the Agra Hospital. When the doctor examined him with his stethoscope, he was astonished to hear the Holy Name vibrating in the stethoscope instead of the sounds of Babaji Maharaj's breath and heartbeat as expected. All he heard was the sound of the Maha Mantra:

HARE KRISHNA HARE KRISHNA KRISHNA KRISHNA HARE HARE
HARE RAMA HARE RAMA RAMA RAMA HARE HARE.
The doctor was puzzled and examined him again, with the same results. He then called his associates to also examine Babaji Maharaj, but everyone heard same holy sound emanating from his chest. Unable to find any illness, they released Babaji Maharaj and he returned to Pavan Sarovar.

Through this and other pastimes Srila Babaji Maharaj personified Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur’s teachings, as found his kirtan, Jiva jago—

jivana anitya jAnaha sAr
tAhe nAnA vidha vipada bhAr
nAmAzraya kori yatane tumi
thAkaha Apana kAje
Life is temporary and full of so many dangers. The body will be destroyed either today or tomorrow, so, don’t waste your time just doing your mundane work. We have to do our eternal job in order to reach the ultimate goal of life. Chanting the Holy Name alone is eternal in the universe. So please take shelter of the Holy Name and engage peacefully in service connected to the Holy Name.

In the Chaitanya Charitamrita, it is said that whatever seems to be distress in a Vaishnava’s life is in fact the greatest joy.

jata dekho vaiSNavera vyavahAra duHkha
nizcaya-i jAnibe tAhA parAnanda sukha
I once saw Babaji Maharaj and Bhakti Srirupa Siddhanti Maharaj get into an argument. Though it looked pretty serious, it was only a friendly quarrel. Though Babaji Maharaj chanted three lakhs of Holy Names every day, when in Nabadwip, he sometimes went to listen to the lila kirtans put on by the Sahajiyas. Siddhanti Maharaj teased him, saying, “O three-lakhs-a-day Babaji Mahashay! You don’t get enough Krishna lila from chanting three lakhs of Krishna’s names? You need to go listen to the Sahajiyas’ kirtan? Why are you making a mockery of Srila Prabhupada’s standards?”

Babaji Maharaj said nothing in response to his godbrother’s criticisms, but returned immediately to Sanatan Goswami’s bhajan kutir where he started to fast. Bon Maharaj, Sridhar Maharaj and many other godbrothers wrote him letters and sent messengers asking him to stop his fast and to return to his normal life. However, it was all to no avail. The Supreme Lord decided to withdraw him from our mortal vision and take him to His own bosom. On Monday, April 12, 1982, at 9:00 in the morning, Srila Krishna Das Babaji Maharaj entered the Lord’s cowherding pastimes, casting us all into an ocean of bereavement.

Many devotees still make the trip to Pavan Sarovar just to see Krishna Das Babaji Maharaj’s samadhi temple, which is being taken care of by some members of the Gaudiya Math in the renounced order. We also pray for his blessings: May he grant us love for the Holy Name and affection for the association of Vaishnavas!

sleeping jiva

08-24-2004, 04:37 AM

SvgGrdnBeauty

08-24-2004, 04:46 AM

Doesn't Krishna say in the Gita that know one could know Him....or something along those lines....?

BlackBillBlake

08-24-2004, 12:45 PM

The goal is to love Krishna, not to know Him. Just know yourself so u can know how to love Him. if u knew Him, you'd be greater than Him. And that's just total phantasmagoria. Knowledge is limited, devotion is not.
But how can we love what we don't know? In the Gita, Krishna says hardly anyone knows him, I don't think He says no-one knows Him. The knowledge of the discursive intellect is limited, but there is a higher modes of knowledge, jnana. Krishna does say that one who follows the path of Bhakti gets the results of the other yogas, so knowledge would seem to be included in this.

BlackBillBlake

08-24-2004, 01:40 PM

Chapter 7. Knowledge of the AbsoluteTEXT 1

sri-bhagavan uvaca
mayy asakta-manah partha
yogam yunjan mad-asrayah
asamsayam samagram mam
yatha jnasyasi tac chrnu

SYNONYMS

http://www.asitis.com/gif/bump.gifsri-bhagavan uvaca--the Supreme Lord said; mayi--unto Me; asakta-manah--mind attached; partha--O son of Prtha; yogam--self-realization; yunjan--so practicing; mat-asrayah--in consciousness of Me (Krsna consciousness); asamsayam--without doubt; samagram--completely; mam--unto Me; yatha--as much as; jnasyasi--you can know; tat--that; srnu--try to hear. TRANSLATION

http://www.asitis.com/gif/bump.gifNow hear, O son of Prtha [Arjuna], how by practicing yoga in full consciousness of Me, with mind attached to Me, you can know Me in full, free from doubt.

ChiefCowpie

08-24-2004, 03:15 PM

yes but by not knowing Krishna we experience bliss... ignorance is bliss

sleeping jiva

08-24-2004, 05:34 PM

Even Krishna doesn't know Himself! That's what I meant. If u want to become God, what is the use of your knowledge?

hey, check this out. I really like this one. I found it on http://www.krishna.org

Why do we hesitate to tell a new comer who is searching for a guru that Srila Prabhupada, the best guru the world has ever seen, is still here, and one can surrender unto him and go back to Godhead very easily? When we have such a great good fortune, why do we not take full advantage of it? Bhakti Caru Swami (http://www.krishna.org/?author=Bhakti Caru Swami) (08-24-04)


...Prabhupada did not say anything and then in a very soft voice he told me, "Didn't I teach you that the spirit soul is eternal and he never dies?"

That one statement gave me a profound realization: how could the person who taught me that the spirit soul never dies ever die himself? He will always be with us, although some day he may disappear from our mundane vision.

But today, when I look back, I can see that soon after Srila Prabhupada's disappearance we took it for granted that Srila Prabhupada is not here any more - like any other mortal, as he left his body, he is no more. I very strongly feel that this is the greatest mistake we have made. And as a result, ISKCON today is in such a critical condition. Now that we assembled here to celebrate Srila Prabhupada's disappearance pastime, once and for all let us recognize that Srila Prabhupada has not gone away.

Rather, he has simply disappeared from our vision. Although we are not able to see him any more with our mundane vision, he is very much there, watching us from the spiritual sky. He will always be there to guide us, provided we remain fixed up at his lotus feet. He will reward us when we please him and he will chastise us if we make mistake.

It is due to the mistake of considering that Srila Prabhupada is gone we are facing all these difficulties. During his last days on this planet, Srila Prabhupada told his leading disciples many times, "Just maintain what I have given you." At that time we thought it would be such an easy thing to do. However, today we see how miserably we failed to fulfill that instruction. Srila Prabhupada's greatest asset was his devotees, and that asset we started to lose first. Now we are about to lose everything else that His Divine Grace gave us to maintain.

I do not want to blame anyone for all the mistakes that were made, but we must nonetheless recognize them and learn our lesson from them. Therefore, with all sincerity, I say that we are losing everything because we had been thinking that Srila Prabhupada is now dead and gone, and we started to claim our shares of our inheritance. This morning, during her speech, mother Daivisakti pointed out how natural it is to see that Srila Prabhupada is 'the guru' of ISKCON, still today. It occurred to me how clear a fact that is. Still, how seldom we act according to that understanding! Or do we ever act at all with that understanding?

Nevertheless, everyday, in all the temples of ISKCON, Srila Prabhupada is worshipped by everyone. Then why do we hesitate to tell a new comer who is searching for a guru that Srila Prabhupada, the best guru the world has ever seen, is still here, and one can surrender unto him and go back to Godhead very easily? When we have such a great good fortune, why do we not take full advantage of it? It is only when we do so that the glorious days of ISKCON will come back again and we will witness Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's sankirtan movement starting to spread in leaps and bounds all over the world.

If we really love ISKCON and if we sincerely want the Krsna Consciousness movement to spread all over the world in every town and village, then let us broadcast all over the world that Srila Prabhupada is still with us and that anyone who wants to receive his mercy can approach him and establish his eternal relationship with him.

On this day when Srila Prabhupada has apparently left this planet, let us take up the solemn responsibility to recognize the fact that Srila Prabhupada is always present in his ISKCON, and that whoever wants to can come and meet him here, still today. As his humble servants, let us help them to establish their relationship with His Divine Grace.

Bhakti Caru Swami

BlackBillBlake

08-24-2004, 06:30 PM

yes but by not knowing Krishna we experience bliss... ignorance is bliss
Chief, I'm not sure about that.Perhaps the difficulty comes through the definition of the word 'knowledge'. What does it mean to know God? Not an intellectual knowledge, thats certain, because all such is relativistic. But a higher mode of knowledge - vidya, or jnana?
How about Krishna's Self-revealing to his devotee? Knowledge through Grace?
Also, wasn't the distress of the Gopi's at Krishna's departure because they'd known Krishna intimately, and now their direct knowing of Him was to be interupted?
Can their be love without some knowledge?

And Jiva - I'm not trying to become God ! I hardly think that would be possible, since the post is already filled! But to place a limit on Krishna's knowledge by saying He doesn't know Himself can't be right - Krishna is the supreme Brahman - His body is constituted of Knowledge, Bliss and infinite consciousness. It may appear like that here - that Krishna doesn't have full knowledge, but thats just part of the Lila, the play. In reality His knowledge must surely be perfect and complete.

sleeping jiva

08-25-2004, 02:14 AM

ChiefCowpie

08-25-2004, 03:34 AM

"ignorance is bliss"... i was making a funny but too, the highest rasa with Krishna is love and attraction for the boy and not the God

ChiefCowpie

08-25-2004, 01:28 PM

found this on the net concerning the "long hairs" conversation with S. P. and devotee 1 and devotee 2

(This letter was apparently too long for one posting, so I'll put it in 4 parts)

My eternal friends.

My name was/is Kanupriya. I was invited to participate in a discussion on this site, which I did not know existed, by a member named bangli, who knew me long ago in LA, and who just happened to have my number, so he called me up and told me a story and I looked up the site and here I am. I am quite amazed that there would be a group of people who are interested in the infamous conversation I had with Bhaktivedanta in June of 1975, or that anyone has even heard of and knows about this conversation, what to speak of that portions of the transcript are on web sites.

I’ve spent a bit of time looking over the site, reading a bunch of postings and looking at the profiles of the most active members, and most of you seem relatively sane, and certainly truth seekers, and I even know a few of you, and I like the site, so I’ll be happy to assist you in any way I can towards your further enlightenment.

I read all the postings regarding the conversation including what’s posted of the conversation itself, and all of your speculations and comments. I have a copy of the transcription of the conversation. What has been posted of the conversation on this site is about 11 pages out of 23, from pages 7 to 18, so there’s more of the conversation than has been posted here. The beginning part is the most important because it sets the tone for the rest, but it is alluded to in a later part of the conversation that is posted regarding the issue of you can’t be a disciple if you have long hair, which is a much larger issue than just long hair, which I’ll tell you all about in due course, cause this is gonna’ to be a long long letter. On the transcript, I am Devotee 1 and Jamadagni is Devotee 2.

In order to understand how this conversation came about, what the significance or importance of it is, and how I happened to be there, it is necessary to know the circumstances that led up to it, which I can only tell you from my personal side, so I’ll begin with telling you who I am and what my experiences were with Bhaktivedanta, ISKCON, Jamadagni and the other players in the play, for I have a perspective in all this that no one else could have, since I knew Bhaktivedanta quite well and spent a considerable amount of personal time with him compared to all but a small hand full of devotees. In fact, at one point in 1972, for several months I spent three hours a day with him, an hour of which each day we were alone together most of the times, and I got to ask him all kinds of questions and get all kinds of answers that as far as I can see he never gave to anyone else, or wrote in any of his books, or told in any of his lectures. All I can tell you is that he always told me the truth in response to my questions, but many of the truths he told me are not the same as he wrote in his books or preached in his lectures, as you shall see.

I have only love in my heart for all beings, not because I necessarily actually like everyone or the things they do, but because it’s my natural state of being to flow the energy of love, and I like being there, so I don’t crimp the energy. I have no resentments, nor animosity toward, nor axes to grind with Bhaktivedanta or ISKCON or anything else I have experienced and created in my life, for after all, I’m an astrologer, and according to my chart, I apparently was willing to go through whatever was necessary to attain the state of enlightenment I desired.

I promise to tell you the truth of all this as I remember it, for this was all over 30 years ago, but I have a pretty good memory. I have never told this full story to anyone before, nor would I have ever written down what I am going to be telling you of my relationship with Bhaktivedanta and my experiences in Hare Krishna Land and post it on a web site, nor am I asking you to believe anything I am telling you, or to accept my particular philosophical take on reality, or my interpretations of the meanings of the various things Bhaktivedanta said to me, or even my interpretations of this conversation, but I was requested to provide this information and I see no reason not to do so, and I can only present it from my own point of view, plus it might be of some benefit to someone, and I like being helpful if I can. I’m certainly finding it interesting to be revealing this entire story to anyone for the first time, and even more interesting that anyone’s actually interested!

I’m going to provide you with quite a bit of information here regarding the early history of ISKCON, at least what I know and experienced of it from Jan 69 till Mar 73 while I was there, as well as a bunch of stories of my experiences and conversations with Bhaktivedanta, presented in a way that might give you some insights into his character as I perceived it, and thus a better understanding of my relationship with him and what this conversation was all about. I hope you find it interesting. I read many of your bio’s, and I’m sure quite a few of you will be able to relate to my adventures in Hare Krishna Land.

I was initiated by mail by Bhaktivedanta in Jan 1969 when I was living in my home town Buffalo NY, at which time I moved into the temple there after going there for about four months. I had just turned 20. For the prior couple of years, I had been studying Western astrology, Hatha Yoga, Indian philosophy, meditation, etc. and was a vegetarian, so it seemed like moving into a happy little yoga ashram was my next logical step. The temple had been started by Rupanuga, who was one of the original 12 initiated disciples in New York, and was one of only a half dozen or so temples at the time. There were only a few of us there as the temple had only been there a year; my friends Jagadisha and Praladananda who I knew from college, plus Trivikram and Bhorjan, It was a nice little temple. I worked at the Buffalo library. Rupanuga was a social worker. Jag and Pralad went to college. We had a daily arti and kirtan and class from 7 to 8 am, a kirtan in the evening on Weds. and a feast on Sun. There was no Sankirtan and no book distribution.. “Aaah! The good old days! Chant Hare Krishna and your life will be sublime! A happy little universal prayer that anyone can do without having to change anything else in their lives!” Later in that year Bhagavan and his wife Krishna Bhamani, both of whom I knew in High School, joined along with my High School friend Narottamananda. Nityananda too. Gargamuni and Brahmananda were in charge of the NY temple, Tamal in LA, Satsvarup in Boston. The big three of Mukunda, Guru das and Shyamasundar along with their wives had just left LA and gone to start the temple in England.

At the time I joined, only the Gita and the first canto of SB had been published, and then TLC was published that year. I read the books, but from the very beginning, my interpretations of the books and understandings of the philosophy seemed to be vastly different from everyone else’s, and everyone gave me a hard time about it, especially about my understanding of how you could communicate with Krishna and hear Him talking back to you, and since they were my senior god brothers since they’d been there longer, they were supposed to know better than I, so I was in somewhat of a quandary over quite a few philosophical concepts.

ChiefCowpie

08-25-2004, 01:30 PM

I first met Bhaktivedanta when he came to Buffalo for a couple of weeks in the early spring of 69 to visit the temple and do a bunch of college and other presentations that had been arranged. Everyone else but me went to meet him at the airport, but as I was the cook, I stayed at the temple to prepare the feast for later in the day, after the scheduled event at the local university, which I went to. So the first time I saw him, I was sitting on the stage at the university at the harmonium, as I was the harmonium player, and he walked up on the stage and sat down, and someone handed him a drum, and he looked over at me and nodded his head and smiled and said, “Lets go” and began to play the drum and I followed at the harmonium, and we were just a couple of musicians doing the show, and it was like that at a dozen other kirtans and presentations we did while he was there. I also went and saw him several times where he was staying, so I got to know him a bit, and he certainly knew who I was. The second time I met him was at a huge kirtan in an auditorium he did with Allen Ginsberg at Columbus OH university in around April 69, which was so wild with thousands of totally insane college students jumping up and down and pounding on chairs and screaming Hare Krishna that it made the national evening news channels. After that he went and spent a couple of weeks in New Vrindaban, and I went there too. He gave a class every morning so I saw him every day. One day, he came outside in the late afternoon and was sitting on the grass on a little hill and a few of us devotees went and sat with him. I said, “Prabhupada, can I ask you a question?” He said, “yes”, so I said, ”Prabhupada, how do you tell which of the thoughts of the mind are which? Which are the thoughts of the spirit soul, which are the thoughts of the material mind, and which are the thoughts of the Paramatma?” It was kind of a cloudy evening, and he said, “The material mind is like the clouds in the sky. The Sun is on the other side of the clouds, but since we’re on this side we can’t see the Sun. The spirit soul is like the Sun, since it is the source of the energy, so all thoughts originate with the spirit soul. Any thought that comes through that is a ‘Krishna thought’, which is viewing the world from the perception of spirit, is the original thought of the spirit soul. Any thought that comes through not viewing the world from a spiritual point of view, is the original thought of the spirit soul that got clouded by the material mind. And it is very difficult to tell the difference between the thoughts of the spirit soul and those of the Paramatma, since both are made of knowledge and are essentially the same.” I said, “Thank-you very much. That was also my conclusion”, but Kirtanananda and Rupanuga and all the other devotees there all totally freaked out from this answer, “Oh no! Prabhupad’s preaching mayavadi philosophy that there’s no difference between the jiva and the Paramatma! Oh no! This does not compute! This does not compute! System meltdown!” After having Bhaktivedanta confirm my understanding, which was vastly different from all the other devotee’s understandings from reading the same books, and everyone having told me my interpretations were incorrect, from that point on, none of my so-called more advanced older devotees could tell me anything. I just concluded that I had a particular type of intelligence that gave me the ability to pick out the truths and to understand the secret meanings behind everything, and after that I trusted exclusively my own intelligence and intuition. Like I said before, Bhaktivedanta always told me the truth in response to the many questions I asked him, even though what he told me contradicted what he told everyone else and what he wrote in his books, but then I knew the right questions to ask.

Everything was nice for a while until Aug of 69 when the big street Sankirtan and book distribution and money collecting programs began in LA & NY. I was sent to NY in Aug to get my Brahmins’ initiation since Bhaktivedanta was visiting NY at the time, plus I was supposed to learn how to do the Sankirtan stuff so we could do it back in Buffalo. So we began street Sankirtan in Buffalo, and in my opinion, it was at this time that the whole movement began its rapid descent into drama and chaos. The little temple was no longer good enough as there were now many more devotees and people coming to the temple, so of course we had to get a much bigger temple with a much bigger overhead which created a lot of financial pressure. When I found myself in Buffalo NY in the winter standing on street corners wearing a skirt in blinding snow storms trying to sell sticks of incense for a quarter, my thought was, “This is not what I signed up for. I want out of here!” so I asked Rupanuga if I could be transferred to another temple, preferably in a warmer climate, and he said he’d see what he could arrange. A couple of weeks later when I asked him if he’d made any progress in finding another temple I could go to, he said, “Yeah. I called up all the other temple presidents and told them about you and they all said they’d be glad to have you, but that it would take at least three of their devotees in trade to replace you and they didn’t have that much manpower.” I said, “What do ya mean?” He said, “Well, you’re the cook, and a great cook at that, and you’re the only one who knows how to play all the musical instruments and who knows all the bhajans and you lead the kirtans, plus you know all the books backwards and forwards and teach the classes, plus you’re trained as a pujari, plus you’re the temple commander and lead the Sankirtan parties. So everyone said they’d be glad to have you but they had no devotee who even came close to being able to do all those things and they’d have to send at least two or three devotees to replace you. So I guess you’re stuck here for a while.”

The whole stressful situation started to make me quite depressed, and it wasn’t just being on the streets in blinding snow storms, it was a whole lot more, so in Jan 1970, I just took off and a week later ended up in LA where Bhaktivedanta was, and moved into the LA temple. Tamal had gone to England so Gargamuni had come from NY and was the temple president while his brother Brahmananda stayed in charge in NY, and it was from this point that everything really started going to hell, ending up with in Aug 1970, Bhaktivedanta accusing Gargamuni and Brahmananda of keeping him prisoner in LA, trying to take over the movement, fasting for a week because he thought they were trying to poison him, and ending up creating a huge scene wherein Gargamuni and Brahmananda were removed from their positions, forced to become sanyassi’s if they wanted to still participate in the movement, and Bhaktivedanta leaving and going back to India. A member on this site, a good old friend of mine named Subal, can provide you with more detailed information regarding this particular fiasco than I can, if you’re interested, and if he has any inclination to tell you about it, since he was there, whereas I had left LA a week earlier before all this came down and had gone to Detroit temple which was run by my friend Bhagavan. I do have an interesting perspective on this whole episode however, as I was in a unique position in the LA temple from Jan 70 till Aug 70, during which time Bhaktivedanta remained in LA. The original temple in LA was on La Cienega, and it was in the late spring of that year they got the current temple on Watseka. Prior to the move, Bhaktivedanta had a separate apartment but after the move he lived in his quarters in the new temple. I was one of the two pujaris in LA, and since I did the late evening arti, I kept a different schedule than everyone else, and as a consequence, I was given my own private quarters in one of two rooms behind the old temple room just below Bhaktivedanta’s quarters. The room adjoining mine was the room where Bhaktivedanta met with visitors, and during July and early Aug of 70, he had all the GBC guys and temple presidents come to LA and met them in this room, and as the walls were thin, I got to hear all these conversations from my room. I could tell from these conversations that something was definitely rotten in Denmark and Bhaktivedanta was not pleased with a lot of stuff, although I did not know the extent of it. One evening in early July, Bhaktivedanta sent for me to come up to his quarters. We chatted for a while and then he showed me how he wanted the harmonium played for the morning kirtan we did every morning after his class, so from that point on I would play the harmonium and begin the kirtan and then he would take over, so in my personal experiences I was having a pretty good time, but the entire atmosphere was becoming more and more stressful. Towards mid August, I confronted Gargamuni at a temple meeting with all the other devotees there, and accused him of a bunch of the things he had been doing, which is probably where whatever reputation I got as a rebel against the temple authorities began. As a result of this, Gargamuni threw me out of LA temple and that’s why I ended up in Detroit. By the time I got there was when the whole thing came down in LA and Bhagavan and all the GBC and temple presidents were called to LA. I guess my personal vindication in the whole sordid affair was that within two weeks of Gargamuni throwing me out of LA, Bhaktivedanta threw him out of LA too. This whole thing was far too much drama for my taste, I really don’t care for soap operas, and it continued at some huge meeting all the devotees, temple presidents and GBC guys had at New Vrindaban a few weeks later, which I attended as I was by then close by in Detroit. I found it comical to have all the big wigs being hysterical and blaming everyone else for all their own misdoings. Bunch of total lunatics.

ChiefCowpie

08-25-2004, 01:32 PM

It was at the Detroit temple that I first met Jamadagni and we became good friends. We had both studied astrology before becoming devotees so we had a lot in common. I stayed at the Detroit temple from Sept 70 to Dec 70, at which time I was offered the opportunity to go start a temple in Trinidad with another married devotee couple. By this time I was married to the most mismatched to me, true believer rule following devotee girl in existence, who didn’t quite appreciate my unique understandings of the philosophy, so we never got along very well. But I liked the idea of getting away from ISKCON and going to a small island to start a temple, figured everyone would just leave me alone, so off to Trinidad. Quite an experience. In case you don’t know, Trinidad is a little island off the northeast coast of South America. It has about a million people, around half of whom are Hindus whose ancestors were brought to Trinidad from India by the English in the 1800’s. The language is English. It’s a prosperous little country and most people are well educated. The Hindu’s were quite organized and had their little villages all over the island and various Hindu temples and schools. We created quite a sensation to say the least. When we went and did street Sankirtan, we had hundreds of people gather and chant with us and throw us money. The newspaper put our pictures on the front page of the paper and billed us as the American Hindus come to save the lost Hindus of Trinidad. We stayed at a large temple in Port of Spain, and the Hindu organization arranged for us to do a tour of all the various Hindu villages, temples and schools, doing kirtans and lectures and Sunday feasts. Lot’s of fun being a guru. We’d go to various villages and they’d have young girls throw rose petals in our path, and the teenage girls all lined up and put garlands around our necks. Lot’s of fun being a guru, but I did myself in by doing too well. After being there around six months, I had been taking orders from people for books and sets of books, and I called in my rather large order to the book dep’t in NY so they could ship the books. A few days later, the head of the book dep’t. called me back and asked me if I really needed so many books. I said, “Yeah. There’s a half million Hindus who live here who all speak English and these books are already ordered and sold.” And he said, “Your book order represents approximately 25% of all the books ordered for the month by the entire movement! Trinidad is a gold mine! We’re going to immediately send all of our best book distributors there! We’ll make millions!” And they did, and I split.

Back to LA in July 71, but this time as a householder so it wasn’t quite so bad since I was a bit more independent, but as far as I could see, the movement as a whole was not any different than it had been before the whole mess in LA when Bhaktivedanta had gone back to India. I stayed in LA and in early 72 Bhaktivedanta came back and stayed there too. One day, he wanted to do some recordings of some bhajans and he wanted a tampura on the recordings, and as I was the only one at the temple who had a tampura, I was called to go play the tampura at the recording. At the end of the recording, it was time for his daily massage, but his personal servant at the time, my friend Nanda Kumar, was out tripping around in Venice, and when Bhaktivedanta was informed that Nanda Kumar wasn’t back yet, he looked around the room at the few of us and said, “Who will do my massage?” So I of course immediately volunteered as I knew a bit of massage, so I did his massage for the day. At the end, I bowed down and he patted me on the head and said I did a good job, so I asked if I could come back each day while he was in LA and do his massage for him, and he said that would be nice, and this is how I got to spend an hour alone with him each day for several months. Each day for several months, we would do a recording for around an hour, then he had a private class in his quarters for an hour, which I got to attend, where a devotee was reading the philosophies of various philosophers and he would comment on the philosophies, then we’d do the massage. You have to try and understand what a unique relationship it was to be his masseur compared to any other relationship any devotee may have had with him, which was always a rather formal guru to disciple relationship, whereas doing a massage for someone is a comparatively informal relationship, so he didn’t treat me the way he treated everyone else. The first day I did his massage, before hand I was of course somewhat nervous, but I thought to myself that if I wanted to do a good job, which I did, that I had to put aside any fears I might have of this person, so I did and just went in and did the massage. Bhaktivedanta got his massage sitting up on a mat on the floor, just wearing a loincloth. Most of the times we were alone during the massage, but sometimes he would see visiting temple presidents, GBC guys and various devotees, so I got to see how he dealt with everyone, and sometimes when the person left we would talk about it and he would tell me why he had said what he said to the person. The basic jist of how he dealt with everyone, and what he told me of how he dealt with everyone, would be something like this: He knew he was very intimidating to everyone, and devotees were always bringing him various projects and ideas they had, and he really didn’t have the time to evaluate all the different projects, so what he did was to intimidate the hell out of everyone, and most buckled, but if anyone could stand up to him and actually present any rational logic that they had thought about what they were doing, he figured they were capable of doing it, so he let them. It was during this time that I got to ask him all my questions, the answers to which I’m not going to include at this point, except for one. One morning he gave a lecture in which he said that if someone comes and visits the temple even without knowing what it’s all about, they will still have some spiritual benefit. That morning I asked him about that during the massage, and he said, “I know I said that, but actually you should never do anything that your own intelligence does not understand, for how can you even know what to do if you don’t know why you’re doing it.”

ChiefCowpie

08-25-2004, 01:33 PM

I have to admit that at this time, in spite of my daily association with Bhaktivedanta, I was not happy with the Hare Krishna’s, in fact I was downright miserable. My wife did nothing but fight with me, the leaders were all in my opinion quite insane, and the entire atmosphere was as stressful as it had ever been. I had an organic candy business making Bhakti, Shakti and Bliss bars, and was tripping around selling to various health food stores, when I ran into an old devotee I knew from Laguna Beach who had traveled to India with Bhaktivedanta, but had become disillusioned and had left the movement, so I started hanging out with him and smoking hash just to get a bit of relief. Om Shiva. Bhaktivedanta traveled for a few weeks and then returned to LA. It was during his absence that I started hanging with my friend and smoking hash, and of course my straight laced wife finds out about it and go and tells the then GBC and temple president Karandar, who when they return, then goes and tells Nanda Kumar who then goes and tells Bhaktivedanta. I’d gone to a rather strange headspace during this time, and not just from smoking hash. I was chanting over 100 rounds a day, sleeping a few hours each night and was wearing a saffron dhoti tied like a sanyassi dhoti rather than my white house holder dhoti. Bhaktivedanta called me to his room, took one look at me and said, “What are you doing?” I said I was chanting over 100 rounds a day and wanted to be a sanyassi and live in Vrindaban. I don’t get along with my wife, no one here understands me and I don’t get along with the temple authorities. He laughed and said I’ll tell you when its time for you to go to Vrindaban. He then said so I hear you’ve been smoking hash hish? And I said yes. And he said best not to as no one will understand what I am doing, but he didn’t take it at all seriously. Said I should dress normally and be a house holder and set a good example and come back and do his massages while he was there, so I did.

In the fall of 72, he was returning to India, and Nanda Kumar had left being his personal servant, so I asked if I could travel to India with him as his personal servant. It was fine with him but got axed by the then temple president Karandar who said it would not set a good example since I was a householder. As fate would have it, the next day I was visiting my friend Jayatirtha who was at that time running the Spiritual Sky incense business, and on his desk was a letter from the devotee who was the Spiritual Sky guy in India, requesting that a house holder devotee be sent to India to help him with the business. So, that morning during the massage, I told Bhaktivedanta about the letter and asked since I had wanted to go to India anyway and we had just talked about it, would it be all right with him if I was the one who went to India to help with the Spiritual Sky business, and he said that would be fine. Now, with my recent hash hish episode, I was probably not exactly the devotee that Jayatirtha, in spite of us being friends, would have recommended to be the one to go to India, but since Bhaktivedanta had given me his permission there was nothing he could do, so off I went to India with the wife and the two one year old twin daughters. Yes, I’m going to be a good devotee. I’m going to follow the straight and narrow. So I get to India and meet the two devotees who are running Spiritual Sky there, I’ll call them M and K, and the first thing they say to me is, “Kanupriya, are we glad to see you! Jayatirtha wrote us this letter that Prabhupada had given his permission for you to come, but you’d been smoking hash and he wanted to send this really straight laced devotee from New York instead. So we wrote him back and said he should not go outside of the directions of the Spiritual Master, and that the good association of India would fix Kanupriya up.” And the first place they took me to in Calcutta was their black market hash dealer, and K was shooting morphine! Anyway, this whole situation didn’t work out all that well, although I did spend a couple of weeks with Bhaktivedanta in Vrindaban and about six months in India, but the entire ISKCON scene and atmosphere was the same as in the states, so I decided to return to LA. I spent a week in Vrindaban before I left and this is where I decided to leave the Hare Krishna’s. I was shopping at a little outdoor market and nearby me was an American hippy guy dressed in orange robes wearing a mala, so I started up a conversation, but he was very wary of speaking with me. Turned out he was a disciple of Ramana Maharishi, but we had a nice talk and after a few minutes he said to me, “You know, you’re the only nice Hare Krishna I’ve ever met. Every single other Hare Krishna I’ve met, and I’ve met a lot of them here, immediately starts yelling at me and telling me I’m following a false guru and I’ll probably go to hell!” And I said, “Brother, I know where you’re coming from. I’m about one of the only nice Hare Krishna’s I’ve ever met either!” And I returned to LA in Mar of 73, and the true believer wife lived at the temple, and I went and lived with my friend in Topanga and smoked hash and let my hair grow long and began my serious studies of Vedic astrology. There’s only one episode I want to relate from this period that has something to do with the conversation with Bhaktivedanta that’s being discussed on this site, and you’ll see the relevance of it once we get to the actual conversation. One day I was sitting and thinking that since I had now left the organization and was no longer following the principles, that if it was true (which I really didn’t know if it was or not but this was the standard line) that by being initiated I was somehow karmically linked with the guru, who was from then on forever after responsible for me, and that the guru would have to suffer for my karmas if I didn’t follow the principles, that in all integrity I should renounce my formal discipleship, since I certainly did not want Bhaktivedanta to have to suffer on my behalf. And supposedly the karmic link goes both ways, so that if I were a formal disciple, in all integrity I would also be responsible for the guru’s karma, which as far as I could see was ISKCON and everything it involved, which meant that I would have to spend my life trying to straighten out that mess, even more reason to renounce my formal initiation, so I did. As of the Spring of 73 I no longer considered myself to be an initiated disciple of Bhaktivedanta and stopped using the name Kanupriya.

I spent the remainder of that year primarily studying astrology, and in early 74 Jamadagni came from Hawaii and we studied together till he went back to Hawaii in the fall of 74. I stayed in LA and he returned to LA in the Spring of 75. It was during his time in Hawaii that the whole episode occurred that led to our conversation with Bhaktivedanta. To tell you the truth, I really don’t know the whole story of what happened in Hawaii, was never really all that interested, so if you want the details you’ll have to get them from Jamadagni. I remember Jamadagni told me a bit of it, something about his helping the then temple president, his friend Sudam, set up the legalities in such a way that the temple was no longer under the authority of ISKCON, which caused quite a ruckus and Jamadagni was labeled as a demon and bore the brunt of the whole thing, which apparently he didn’t appreciate very much, whereas I just said “Wad’ya expect?”, but then he was always a much more sincere crusader rabbit than I ever was, and this is what he wanted to go and talk with Bhaktivedanta about, which finally brings us to June of 75 and our infamous conversation.

ChiefCowpie

08-25-2004, 01:34 PM

The meeting with Bhaktivedanta was arranged at the request of Jamadagni by a mutual devotee friend who at the time was named Rebatinandan Swami. I personally had no particular interest or desire in seeing Bhaktivedanta as I had no particular issues to resolve, and I already had many pleasant memories of the times I spent with him, but I wasn’t opposed to seeing him either, so when I was invited to attend the meeting, I went. I had left the organization two years earlier, and during that time I had let my hair grow back so it was quite long, and I had a beard as well. Jamadagni’s hair had grown a bit long too at that time, but not like mine. At the meeting was only Bhaktivedanta, Jamadagni, me, Jayatirtha and Satsvarupa. Upendra, who was Bhaktivedanta’s personal servant at the time, was around but in another room.

First I’m going to tell you about the conversation at the beginning between me and Bhaktivedanta that’s not posted here that set the scene for the rest of the conversation, and my interpretation of what it meant. Then I’ll go into the rest of it, which is mostly all the stuff that Jamadagni was trying to resolve. Then I’m going to just give you a few quotes from Bhaktivedanta from the conversation, and show you all the truths he ended up telling as a result of my initial question, cause like I said, he always told me the truth. I read a rather long posting here on this site by dirty hari, who did a pretty good analysis of what happened before and during the conversation, suggesting that Bhaktivedanta was probably told beforehand a lot of not so nice things about Jamadagni, and that is probably why he appears to be so hostile to Jamadagni, and to me too I guess. I’d tend to agree with his evaluation as well as most of his interpretation of the events,. I’m sure you’ll probably have a few questions about all of this which I’ll be happy to respond to. And thus we begin with the part of the conversation that is not on the posted transcript.

When Jamadagni and I walked into the room, Jayatirtha said, “Prabhupada, these are your two disciples Jamadagni and Kanupriya.” Bhaktivedanta didn’t know Jamadagni, but as you know he did know me, so he looked at me and said, “You cannot be my disciple if you are keeping such long hairs.” Well, you know me by now, and I knew this was being recorded and would go down to posterity, and I figured there must be some reason I’m here and going through this, and he’d set himself up with an opportunity for me to have him tell the truth about things, and as you know he always told me the truth, so even though I already knew the answer to this question, I said, “Prabhupada, does that mean I can’t be Krishna conscious and return to the Spiritual Sky?” And he said, “Of course not! Krishna doesn’t care if you have long hair! Disciple means one who follows the discipline. I wanted people to be recognized as Hare Krishna people, so to be a disciple means to keep shaved head with sika and tilok.” So I said, “But Prabhupada, the philosophy as all the devotees tell everyone it is that in order to become Krishna conscious and return to the Spiritual Sky you have to be initiated.” And he said, “That is the standard. I have only set up the standard for those who can follow the standard. If you are above the standard or below the standard you do not need to follow the standard. It is not as if the entire world has to become my disciples!” I said, “Thank-you Prabhupada. You never explained it this way before.”

I hope you can see the meaning of all this, especially if you will recall the story I told you about when I renounced my formal initiation, regarding that how initiation is presented is that it means this eternal karmic bond between the guru and the disciple, because what Bhaktivedanta just said is that this entire conception of what initiation really means is a fairy tale! As is the necessity of even being initiated in the first place! As is the necessity of following any of the slavery rules of the Hindu Caste System, also known as Varnashram Dharma or the so-called Vedic Culture. And trying to lead the life of this fairy tale and a whole bunch of other fairy tales was and is the cause of all the complications in Hare Krishna Land.

There is not a single person who ever joined the Hare Krishna’s because they woke up one morning and said to themselves, “You know! I suddenly have this burning desire to devote my life to spreading the Hindu Caste System all over the world in the name of spirituality! I think I’ll join the Hare Krishna’s and pretend I’m a Hindu Brahmin from 5,000 years ago!” Every single person who came to the Hare Krishna’s did so because they were seeking their own spiritual enlightenment, and for no other reason, and were erroneously told that they had to adopt the rules and lifestyle of a particular obscure caste of Hindu Brahmins in order to do so, and they were told there was no other way, and that they had to be initiated, and that in order to be initiated they had to follow all these rules and adopt this lifestyle. And now Bhaktivedanta said none of this was true! It’s not necessary to be initiated. If you are initiated as a disciple it is a fairy tale that there is now some eternal karmic link between the guru and disciple. Disciple means one who follows the discipline, and that’s it! And whatever else you may think it means is a fairy tale! And from this particular bit of “truth” it is now possible to distinguish all of the other fairy tales from all of the other “truths”. The fairy tales are the way the philosophy is presented as part of the Hindu Caste System to the plebian masses, which is called the “standard”, such as you have to have a guru, and be initiated by the guru, and do what the guru says, because without the guru you can’t become spiritually realized and go to heaven when you die. The “truth” is what’s really going on behind all the fairy tales

BlackBillBlake

08-25-2004, 01:34 PM

hahaha,

I'm sorry I can't find the quote, but I read it. I didn't make it up. Have u seen the picture where Krishna sees His reflection on the floor and becomes captivated? That's something similar. I didn't say you are trying to become God, I was just talking to everybody. Especially about buddhists. yeah, u got the good point. What is knowledge? If u know things and you utilize them for your satisfaction instead of satisfying Krishna, what is wise about that? U are slave anyhow. I'd call it mystic powers, lot of people like to have them just becuz they want to be Gods themselves. The real knowledge is to know the Supreme controller and then to surrender to Him. The real knowledge is to explain others how to love Krsna. U used the word relativistic -that's very accurate. We can't say what is knowledge. There is also a moment when Krsna shows Arjuna His Universal form and Arjuna is scared, he doesn't wanna! He just want see Krishna as his two handed friend. The same with Vrndavana's citizens, they didn't treat Him like a Supreme God, they just loved Him without any knowledge. The sincerity is what counts. If u love Krsna for no reason, thats a perfection. And if u can explain why you love Him for no reason, then it is a knowledge. Do u agree? take care :) haribol!
Two things here Jiva - you're right in saying that the pursuit of mystic powers, siddhis, is a distraction from the true path. In my opinion, some modern so called 'spiritual paths' eg Wicca, are seeking this only.

I can only say that Love for Krishna is there quite naturally in everyone - we just have to uncover our dormant love for Him - To love God is our true nature, all this materiel life and so on is given us for this one end.

And you're right about the residents of Vrindavana - they don't think of Him as God, but as their Dear Krishna - but still, he manifests to them in a way which shows that he is God - see my previous post from the 'Krsna' book where Yashodamayi looks into His mouth and sees the Visvat-Rupa, the Universal form.

Just one more point - part of the problem comes from the paucity of the english language - we have only one word for love, whilst I have read that in sanskrit there are over twenty words - and the same is true of the word 'knowledge'.

Love.

ChiefCowpie

08-25-2004, 01:37 PM

I’ll give you a couple examples of the “truths” you can separate from the fairy tales by following this method of understanding, and then I’ll get back to commenting on and explaining the rest of the conversation. I hope I’m not boring you, but this is my take on the meaning of this conversation and on a lot of the other answers Bhaktivedanta gave me to questions I asked him. So here’s an interesting fairy told to five year olds regarding something seemingly as innocuous as worshiping a plant called Tulasi. “This plant named Tulasi is a devotee and is the very favorite plant of the biggest of the big Gods in the sky named Vishnu, and by worshipping this plant we are worshiping Vishnu and making Vishnu happy, and if we make Vishnu happy then we will become free of all our bad karmas, even the baddest of the bad karmas which would be from killing a Brahmin, and therefore all our bad karmas that were going to get us in the future in this life, and would make us take bad future lives too, will all be burnt up and we’ll get to go to heaven when we die. All we have to do is to put a little dress on the plant, and dance around the plant, and sing a song for the plant, and put a little water on the planet, and Vishnu will accept our service and we’ll be freed from the bad prison house of Mannequin Land, because this is a really special plant and Vishnu really loves this plant more than any other plant in the whole wide world!” And what’s the “truth?” The purpose of the ritual of worshiping the Tulasi plant is to attain the experience of Sat Chit Ananda, to experience the spiritual dimension of reality. This is accomplished, as are all other rituals, by following particular techniques that enable you to focus you mind and get it to stop thinking about all the usual junk it thinks about so you can experience the spiritual dimension. Dancing around the plant is known as “asana”, ritualistic bodily movements or positioning, which is meant to bring about a sense of separation between you, the eternal consciousness and the mannequin. Singing is known as Pranayama, which is purposely altering the normal rate of breathing which is something else to do that further helps to focus the mind, looking at the pretty plant and the candles is known as Pratyahara, which is an “eye fascination” that causes the brain to add higher percentages of Alpha and Theta waves to the usual scattered Beta waves of the brain, which will cause your conscious mind to stop thinking about whatever else you were thinking about and focus on what you’re doing at the moment, which is called meditation. Listening to the singing and the music is known as Dharayana, or focus of the hearing, which further focuses the mind and helps you think about what you are doing. If you can ever get your mind to actually totally stop thinking about all the usual things it thinks about, which is mostly stuff in the past and the future, and focus completely on what you’re doing in the present moment, and if you correctly know why you’re doing all this stuff in the first place, which is know as Dhayana, or philosophical understanding, you will be able to experience the spiritual dimension to reality. You will first experience what is known as Sat, which is the experience of your Self as the eternal consciousness completely different from and separate from your mannequin. You will experience your mannequin as nothing more than a big puppet dancing around, and you exist on another dimension and just experience through it from afar. You will also experience your Self as the detached watcher of the usual thoughts of the mind that pertain to the mannequin and its various designations and activities here in Mannequin Land. You will also experience eternity, that you have always existed and will always exist and that there is no time. Chit, or knowledge, is experienced by being able to actually perceive the consciousness in the plant as being something completely different from and separate from the physical form of the plant, and that the consciousness of the plant is of the same spiritual nature as your Self, and being able to make the connection with that consciousness, so you can have a relationship with the plant and can talk to the plant and feel some emotions for the plant, as well as experience that the consciousness of the plant is aware of you as well. You then get to walk out the door, remaining in the experience of your Self as the eternal consciousness, which is called samadhi, and see and connect with the consciousness in all the other plants and trees all other living things. I f you like, you can then make the connection with the consciousness of the being who pervades the Earth, generally referred to as the “Great Spirit”, and to innumerable other eternal beings as well. This is the experience of the spiritual dimension of reality, which is technically known as having attained enlightenment or Yoga. Experiencing the spiritual dimension of reality will make you really happy, which is known as Ananda, or bliss. When you experience Sat Chit Ananda, you will have freed your Self from the illusion that you are bound in the material world, which is know as “nitya bandha”, (eternally conditioned) and experience that you have always been eternally liberated, which is known as “nitya siddha”. At that point you have returned to the eternal infinite dimension, and will live happily ever after.

Here’s just one more, but this is the biggest “standard” fairy tale of them all. “There are two categories of eternal beings. Some are big and infinite and all powerful ‘Gods’ and are known as Vishnu and His various forms, and some are little and not so powerful and are meant to ‘surrender’ to and serve the big ‘Gods’. The little guys are known as ‘jivas’, and we’re sorry to have to tell you this, but you're a jiva. The big ‘Gods’ and the little jivas all originally lived happily together in the eternal infinite realms, until something bad happened and a bunch of the little jivas went bad and decided they wanted to be like the big ‘Gods’, which of course was impossible since they were just inferior little jivas, so the bad little jivas had to go to the bad world of Mannequin Land where they could pretend they are ‘Gods’, which is unfortunately accompanied by the suffering of repeated births and deaths, until they learn their lesson and stop trying to play ‘God’, and surrender to their role of servant of the big ‘Gods’, and thus gain parole for good behavior from the bad prison house of Mannequin Land, and get to go back to the eternal realms and live happily ever after.”

ChiefCowpie

08-25-2004, 01:38 PM

This particular philosophical take on the nature of infinite reality is known as “Salvationism”, and has been presented as this fairy tale for thousands of years by the Brahmins of the Hindu Caste System for the benefit of the plebeian masses as an explanation for what we’re all doing here, as well as a motivational tactic to inspire the masses to make sure they follow all the rules of the caste system as the only method of attaining enlightenment and liberation. This is another one of those things known as the “standard” explanation. And what’s the “truth?” The Truth is called Sat Chit Ananda. Sat is eternal consciousness. Consciousness is comprised of light and colors, sounds, flavors, odors and “touches”, in infinite variety, all at the same “time”. Just as it is impossible to have “older” and “younger” beings in the dimension of Sat Chit Ananda where everyone is eternal and there’s no such thing as older and younger, it is also impossible to have an aspect of Sat Chit Ananda which is “greater” or “lesser” than another aspect, an aspect which is comprised of infinite colors, and another aspect which is comprised of only a finite number of colors, which would thereby make some beings “greater” and some beings “lesser”. So this particular conception of eternally “greater” and “lesser” beings is a fairy tale because it creates an impossible duality in a non-dual realm. There are no categories of greater and lesser eternal beings in the dimension of Sat Chit Ananda. There are no jivas.. There are no “inferior” or “lesser” beings. There are no “superior” beings. There are no “supreme” beings. There is no “original” being. There are no “more powerful” beings. There are no “less powerful” beings. There are no “expansions” of beings. These dualistic concepts simply do not exist in the dimension of Sat Chit Ananda. They only exist in the minds of those who are experiencing within this physical realm of duality. There are an infinite number of equal eternal infinite beings, and you’re one of them! As long as anyone maintains within their mind this illusory conception of eternally greater and lesser beings, that very thought creates the separation that makes it impossible to experience any of those beings, because you can’t experience them until you both correctly understand and experience your own eternal infinite Self, and if you think you’re a being who is in some way eternally different from and lesser than those beings, you can’t experience either the true nature of your infinite Self or theirs. So what’s this physical dimension we’re all experiencing and why are we experiencing it? Well, we’re all eternal infinite beings just being our infinite Selves! As eternal infinite beings, you’d think we could do anything wouldn’t you? But we can’t! There’s two things we can’t do, and this is why we’re all “here” experiencing this particular realm of three-dimensional space and time. First, because we’re eternal, which means we have always existed and will always exist, we cannot eliminate our existence. Therefore we’re stuck! We exist forever and we can’t not exist. Secondly, because we’re infinite, we can’t become finite. We can’t become something less than we are, nor can we not express some aspect of our infiniteness. Therefore we’re stuck again! We’re stuck having to “be all that we can be” forever and ever. As eternal infinite beings, we are capable of dreaming up and creating an infinite variety of things. This particular physical manifestation is one of the infinite possible things we could dream up and create, so we dreamed it up and created it! As the creators of this physical dimension, we are experiencing here out of our own free will and creative self-expression. We are here continuing to create and enjoying our own creation. We cannot become "liberated" because we are not "bound" in the first place! We are not “bad” for being here! We are not separated from some “source” that we have to get back to! We are not here to prove ourselves worthy of going to a better place! We are not here to "clear" our bad karma. We are not on some miserable wheel of samsara karma repeated birth and death until we gain "liberation" by "surrendering" to the will of some superior being. We are all free and independent creators and we can go anywhere we want, be anything we want and do anything we want. Who we all really are as beings of unlimited freedom, creativity and boundless joy is exemplified by Krishna and the life he led. The physical world is not a prison house from which we are supposed to escape, it’s an amusement park for eternal infinite beings killing eternal time trying to dream up something new. When you experience all this, you will cease considering yourself to be the dreamt, and become the dreamer.

So now back to the rest of the conversation, some of which is included in the transcript on this site. Yes, Jamadagni and I were apparently way ahead of our time in being able to see how “absolute power” corrupted those in positions of leadership within the movement, the observation of which apparently turned out to be correct, as these leaders (as far as I’ve heard since I really haven’t been around or involved or paid much attention to it all since 73 when I left) ended up causing quite a bit of difficulties within the movement, especially ante Bhaktivedanta when they became the “gurus”, which the rest of the devotees eventually had to deal with. To me this was all the inevitable result of the philosophy of the “miserable material world” that you have to try and escape from. If you think this is a miserable material world, you will create within your personal life a miserable material world to live in.

ChiefCowpie

08-25-2004, 01:39 PM

And it was definitely true that Bhaktivedanta was not told and therefore did not know about whatever things were going on that he definitely would not have approved of. So Jamadagni, as I said before, a far more sincere devotee and crusader rabbit that I ever was, apparently set out to tell him about it all, since that’s what I can see the conversation is about now that I’m reading it again. I really didn’t know at the time what Jamadagni specifically wanted to talk to Bhaktivedanta about. We didn’t discuss it before hand, and as I said before, I wasn’t really all that interested in whatever fiasco had happened in Hawaii. I personally entered the arena with no agenda whatsoever, not to support Jamadagni, and certainly not to tell Bhaktivedanta about the corruption of the leaders, cause I personally couldn’t have cared less.

You can read the conversation yourself and see all the things Jamadagni said about the various difficulties and problems within the movement, since the majority of the conversation was between him and Bhaktivedanta. I’ll just give you one quote from Jamadagni that’s from the beginning and isn’t on the post on this site, and you’ll see why this whole conversation got the response from the temple authorities that it did, and why the tape was purged from the archives. “So we are trying to speak to you that some of the men who you have appointed to positions of administration are greatly misusing that responsibility, and the general public opinion is that they are acarya in the same sense that you are acarya, and so we accept you as our guru but we do not accept the GBC as our guru so that they can speak on everything because they are not realized like you are realized. So when they misuse that power it causes some of us very great difficulty in pursuing our own Krishna consciousness.” Yup! Well, I guess that just about says it all! Can’t possibly imagine why all the movements leaders got so bent out of shape over that! And I again agree with dirty hari’s evaluation of what Bhaktivedanta had been told about Jamadagni prior to the conversation, which accounted for his attitude, as well as the evaluation of when Bhaktivedanta’s attitude changed when he realized he had not exactly been told the whole truth of the situation; but as far as I’m concerned this is all irrelevant, as is the part about the King guy and the 4 billion body guards, as is all the sociological stuff about the problems of devotees in the movement, as is all the bad things all the bad leaders were doing. To me, all that’s relevant are the various “truths” Bhaktivedanta told which are different from the usual fairy tales, and how you can use those truths to then be able to separate all the other truths from all the other fairy tales.

So here’s the only few other quotes from Bhaktivedanta from the conversation that I consider to be the various “truths”, some of them similar to the first truth already discussed regarding the concept of initiation, and then I’ll give you my interpretation of what I think it all means. Some are from the parts on this site and some are from the other parts.

“They are all neophytes. If you show something which is beyond our jurisdiction then they may be influenced. They are not all very advanced. You may be very advanced but they are not very advanced”

“If you are above the general principle that does not mean you cannot become Krishna conscious, and if you are lower than the general principle that does not mean that you cannot become Krishna conscious. Krishna consciousness is unconditional, but we have got some general principle, to make step by step.”

“Without becoming my disciple you can become Krishna conscious.”

“Disciple means to agree to follow the discipline, to abide by the rules given by the Spiritual Master That’s all!”

“The general rule is that one cannot make any spiritual advancement without taking shelter of a Spiritual Master, but if you are more advanced then your position is different.”

“If you think you are so advanced that you don’t need following discipline that means you are advanced, don’t require it, and can still be Krishna conscious.”

Even though I would not consider myself to be a disciple of Bhaktivedanta, it would be impossible for me to go outside of his instructions to me, for he told me to always trust my own intelligence and never accept anything that my intelligence did not understand. The only way I could possibly go outside of his instructions, would be to totally give up my own intelligence, move into a Hare Krishna temple or find some other guru guy propounding all this same stuff, and start believing all the fairy tale explanations.

My basic interpretation of the quotes I just listed, is that the common people (the neophytes) are basically considered to be too stupid to be able to be told the actual truth about anything, so they are given all the fairy tale explanations so they can take everything step-by-step. If buying into all the fairy tales is what you think you have to do to become Krishna conscious, and you’re not smart enough to be able to figure out the actual truths from the fairy tales, then you get to live a life of fairy tales. If you’re smart enough to be able to figure out the truths, then you don’t. The fairy tales are all the “standard” explanations of the Hindu Caste System, which includes about 90% of all the information presented in all the so-called infallible books. The “truths” are such things as there is actually no such thing as “initiations”, there are no “lineages” of gurus, there are no Brahmins, there are no sanyassi’s, there is no need to follow all the cultural rules of the Hindu Brahmins in order to attain spiritual awareness, and Krishna doesn’t care if you have long hair! The problem with fairy tales is that because they are fairy tales, you have to believe them (which is why you can’t ask why because there is no why), but the word “’belief” has no meaning, nor does the word “faith”. A belief is simply a thought in words that the person has attached a certain amount of emotion to, and they keep thinking the same thought over and over again, so now the feel they have “faith” in their “belief”. Belief is meaningless because it is not based on intelligent perception and understanding, and if you don’t fully understand what you are doing, why you are doing it and how the various processes of attaining the experience of Sat Chit Ananda actually work, you can’t get the experience. This is what Bhaktivedanta taught me for which I shall be forever appreciative, how to trust my own intelligence and how to separate the truths from the fairy tales. Every answer he ever gave me to any of my questions, including in this conversation, was the truth separated from the fairy tale, but then like I said before, I only got these truths from him because I knew the right questions to ask, to everyone else he gave the fairy tale. And in my opinion this is the only importance of this conversation, that perhaps now you can also learn how to trust your own intelligence and be able to figure out the truths from the fairy tales.

As I said at the beginning, of my own accord I would never have written this story down and posted it on a website. I am a very private person. These are my personal experiences, my personal relationship with Bhaktivedanta, and my personal realizations. I have no concern if anyone likes the story or either agrees or disagrees with anything I have written here. I was asked to make a posting regarding this conversation and I have done so according to who I am. When I was asked to make the