hare krishna

[BlackBillBlake]

The idea of Krishna is Krishna, there's no such thing as idea of Krishna!!!!! There's no representations of Krishna!!!!!
This can't be right. Otherwise, a person who had heard the name of the Lord only once, and never read, chanted or done any other sadhana would know Krishna as Intimately as His close Devotees.

I don't challenge Krishna, sleeping Jiva - I may challenge your mental conceptions about Krishna and related philosophy, but thats quite another thing. And I don't do so out of egotism or some desire to win points in some supposed contest, but because as one who first chanted Hare Krishna more than thirty years ago, I wish to share with others what I have realized.You have started this thread, a public forum for discussion of these matters, so please, try to understand that to contradict your idea of things is not to challenge Sri Krishna.

[BlackBillBlake]

Yes, you are absolutely right, but for me, it is quite hard to surrender to my Guru, he doesn't even know I exist though I talked to him a few times. He has alot of people following him... my guru is Chinna Geeyar swami and he says almost the samethings my heart tells me.

Therefore , it is not hard for one to realize the absolute truth, even if he is the most lowest of mankind he can rise above and live in peace at the feet of the lord, when he shows his mercy.

For me, I am a fan of karma yoga- the action in Krishna consciousness.

Sometimes people fight by saying Jyana is the best, some people say no- bhakti and action in bhakti- action in krishna consciousness is the best... but in truth my heart tells me, the living being who follows one path faithfully, gains the benefits of both and ever lasting peace.
I am glad that you are sincere in seeking to surrender to you Guru!

Sometimes, we may be able to directly be in the physical prescence of Realized persons, and at other times we feel the separation - but know that God is everywhere, and can be realized anywhere. He is never distant from us, but closer than the closest, closer than a heartbeat.

The path of Karma Yoga is a great path; it allows us to bring all our activities into relation with the Lord, to offer all to Him in Love. You are right to trust your heart - often, that is how we can find that truth which remains when all else collapses.And often the heart is a surer guide than the mind!

Blessings

BBB.

[sleeping jiva]

This can't be right. Otherwise, a person who had heard the name of the Lord only once, and never read, chanted or done any other sadhana would know Krishna as Intimately as His close Devotees.

I don't challenge Krishna, sleeping Jiva - I may challenge your mental conceptions about Krishna and related philosophy, but thats quite another thing. And I don't do so out of egotism or some desire to win points in some supposed contest, but because as one who first chanted Hare Krishna more than thirty years ago, I wish to share with others what I have realized.You have started this thread, a public forum for discussion of these matters, so please, try to understand that to contradict your idea of things is not to challenge Sri Krishna.
You misinterpreted everything I said. There's no such thing as idea of Krishna, or representation of Krishna. My idea? what is "my idea"? Where you can find "my idea" in this forum?

[BlackBillBlake]

You misinterpreted everything I said. There's no such thing as idea of Krishna, or representation of Krishna. My idea? what is "my idea"? Where you can find "my idea" in this forum?
Everything you say that is not a quote is your idea of things - your understanding of Krishna and of Srila Prabhupada.

If I misunderstand then please enlighten me as to what you really meant. But I've already said what I think - there is a difference between Krishna and the concept or idea of Krishna in the mind of the ordinary, ie un-realized person.So please explain how there can be no difference -

Let me put like this - a picture of Krishna is not krishna. This is obvious, because the picture can be destroyed, reproduced or changed according to human will or caprice. With death, the picture will no longer be available to the person who in life used to look at it.

Also' I know that Sri Krishna lives in my heart - but not a particular image formed by human hands!

On 'spititual sky' inscense pack is a picture of Sri Krishna - millions of which must wind up in people's garbage cans, or worse.

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

Oooh! I'm so happy to see more different imputs kicking around in here! :)

That's really all I have to say (seriously...)...I'm more the observer than anything else...I don't know anymore than what I take in...and I am glad to have more teachers and points of view :) Welcome to the group BlackBillBlake (well welcome back to you) and Jedi! :)

[BlackBillBlake]

Oooh! I'm so happy to see more different imputs kicking around in here! :)

That's really all I have to say (seriously...)...I'm more the observer than anything else...I don't know anymore than what I take in...and I am glad to have more teachers and points of view :) Welcome to the group BlackBillBlake (well welcome back to you) and Jedi! :)
Thanks for the welcome back - never really been away!!

Love

BBB

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

Well...than I guess I should say welcome out of lurk-dom :)

[sleeping jiva]

I'm sorry. You're right, everything except quotes are my own blabberings and therefore not very objective things, but I believe I'm not saying anything against Prabhupada, what is contradicting his teachings. If it's so, I'm willing to accept my mistake, not otherwise. Therefore I'm saying where are my ideas? what have I said different from Prabhupada's teachings?
It seems to me that me and SvGrdnbeauty were the only people who quoted Prabhupada's books in this forum, so compared to others, I don't think that I'm pushing my own explanations. First criticize them, ok?
Forget all about me. I'm a sleeping jiva.- why would I give myself this name if I wasn't aware of my deep ignorance?

But I was reading very recently a lecture of Prabhupada and he said that Deities in the temple are not representations of Krishna, they are Krishna. This is the difference, so yea, even the picture is Krishna Himself. Mantra, maybe you heard it before, mahamantra is Krishna Himself, Bhagavadgita and all the sastras, they're not representations -they're all Krishna Himself. everything is spiritual, there's no such a thing as material, everything is spiritual. It's only coverd by maya -that's why we think we are independent from Krsna. But as soon the material objects, or desires are transcended into devotional service to Lord Krishna they revive their spiritual platform. For example prasadam, you have desire to eat a good food, so instead of satisfying yourself, you offer it to Krishna. Thus your desire becomes a good desire. The idea of Krishna doesn't exist, also representation doesn't exist, it's all Krishna. If people don't understand Him, He wants to purify them, so He sends maya, which brings suffering, thus they understand and surrender to Him. If you're afriad to be misled by cheaters, read Bhagavadgita As It Is by Srila Prabhupada -it's so easy. Just surrender to God, you don't need anything else.

Of course, if you say This is Krishna and do something what is against the scriptures, you're nothing but a cheater. Hope, you see my point now. hare krishna!

[sleeping jiva]

IN MY BOOKS the philosophy of Krishna Consciousness is EXPLAINED FULLY so if there is anything which you do not understand, then you simply have to read again and again. By reading daily THE KNOWLEDGE WILL BE REVEALED TO YOU AND BY THIS PROCESS YOUR SPIRITUAL LIFE WILL DEVELOP.

Srila Prabhupada

[BlackBillBlake]

IN MY BOOKS the philosophy of Krishna Consciousness is EXPLAINED FULLY so if there is anything which you do not understand, then you simply have to read again and again. By reading daily THE KNOWLEDGE WILL BE REVEALED TO YOU AND BY THIS PROCESS YOUR SPIRITUAL LIFE WILL DEVELOP.

Srila Prabhupada
I would have prefered it if you had addresed the points in my previous reply in your own words. I can't see how the idea of Krishna in the mind of an unrealized, even anti-divine person can be the actual form of krishna. If so, they'd only have to hear the name and all would immediately become clear - they would have full realization. Reading of Shastra, of Prabhupada or anyone else would become irrelevant, as would effort at realization, beacause they'd have it already.

The Image of the Deity in the temple is not just any picture of krishna. If it were, it could be treated with the same contempt I mentioned with regard to pictures of Krishna on inscense packets. And I'm sure you'll agree that can't be right.

[sleeping jiva]

I would have prefered it if you had addresed the points in my previous reply in your own words. I can't see how the idea of Krishna in the mind of an unrealized,

idea of Krishna is a nonsense, it doesn't exist. there's no idea of Krishna. Krishna is real, man!


even anti-divine person can be the actual form of krishna. If so, they'd only have to hear the name and all would immediately become clear - they would have full realization. Reading of Shastra, of Prabhupada or anyone else would become irrelevant, as would effort at realization, beacause they'd have it already.

have it? noone has Krishna, noone has realization of Krishna. Krishna has all! Krishna is the Supreme Proprietor, he is the owner of our realization. But anyhow, I didn't say this.

The Image of the Deity in the temple is not just any picture of krishna. If it were, it could be treated with the same contempt I mentioned with regard to pictures of Krishna on inscense packets. And I'm sure you'll agree that can't be right.

I kept the package from incense, I kept even the package my sister have from a Henna hair color. I would never throw it away. I never read that it in Bhagavadgita, I just can't thow it away. Deities are Krishna, they're not representation. But as you said when somebody claims to know Krishna eventhough in his talks he's against the scripture, he's a cheater -that's not Krishna. I agree with you on this one. I'm just against the words you used.

[BlackBillBlake]

idea of Krishna is a nonsense, it doesn't exist. there's no idea of Krishna.

have it? noone has Krishna, noone has realization of Krishna. Krishna has all! Krishna is the Supreme Proprietor, he is the owner of our realization. But anyhow, I didn't say this.


Then there can be no false idea or mental image of Krishna, so no need to read the Purana to find out about Him. Because whatever we think will be the supreme absolute Para-Brahman.

If no one has realization of Krishna, why does Srila Prabhupada speak of 'realized souls' and why write a book called 'The Science of Self-Realization'?

Had not Prabhupada become realized?

[sleeping jiva]

Then there can be no false idea or mental image of Krishna, so no need to read the Purana to find out about Him. Because whatever we think will be the supreme absolute Para-Brahman.

If no one has realization of Krishna, why does Srila Prabhupada speak of 'realized souls' and why write a book called 'The Science of Self-Realization'?

Had not Prabhupada become realized?I didn't say that, why do think I said that? you know forget it. we say the same thing. I told you that the both ways are equally important -within and without.
Noone has realization of Krishna. Yes, there are realised souls, but they don't have realization. how can you have realization? Realization is not material so you can have it. That's what I was saying.

[BlackBillBlake]

Lets say one can bacome realized. That doesn't mean one 'posesses' realization as with some materiel thing. Great Souls are established in Brahman, in realization.

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

Yes, see that is the only grey area, I think. When you read Bhahavad-Gita As It Is...it tells you many things to do in order to find realization...then at the same time, Srila Prabhupada and others would say that all you have to do is chant...and you will come to those things...

..but at the same time Krishna says that no one will truly know what He is...

Wow, you know what, nevermind...I think I just confused myself...and made no sense... scratch the above...

And I have to agree with the thing about the pictures...I don't think that the pictures are exactly Krishna, that's like saying that each crucifix is exactly Jesus...instead I think that they are representations to help us learn about Him and to remind us to remember Him in our everyday lives...

[Jedi]

I would have prefered it if you had addresed the points in my previous reply in your own words. I can't see how the idea of Krishna in the mind of an unrealized, even anti-divine person can be the actual form of krishna. If so, they'd only have to hear the name and all would immediately become clear - they would have full realization. Reading of Shastra, of Prabhupada or anyone else would become irrelevant, as would effort at realization, beacause they'd have it already.

The Image of the Deity in the temple is not just any picture of krishna. If it were, it could be treated with the same contempt I mentioned with regard to pictures of Krishna on inscense packets. And I'm sure you'll agree that can't be right.
Yes, you are absolutely right. You have to hear the name and everything will be realized, just like the sun's luminous reflection is seen as the mirror is turned toward the sun.

However, we are now dirty, therefore, we have to keep on chanting his name, calling him to clean us up, then he will come and clean us up and then we can see him.

If you want to clean it faster, read shastras and talk to the mirrors that are clean and they will give you instructions on how to clean yourself. ;)

[Jedi]

Then there can be no false idea or mental image of Krishna, so no need to read the Purana to find out about Him. Because whatever we think will be the supreme absolute Para-Brahman.

If no one has realization of Krishna, why does Srila Prabhupada speak of 'realized souls' and why write a book called 'The Science of Self-Realization'?

Had not Prabhupada become realized?There is no false image of krishna. Every image is his, however if you want to know how he truly is, what his qualities are, what he actually is orginally, then you have to let him tell you that, until then you cannot understand him.

Some people worship him as Narayana, some others worship him as hayagriva and some others see him as Rama.

The actual image of him is ofcourse the beautiful cowherd boy playing his charming flute.

If you want to worship him as shiva go ahead... however, do not consider shiva to be vishnu himself... because shiva is another living entity , but he is not like you and me because he is a great devotee of the lord, therefore he is always worthy of worship.

[BlackBillBlake]

There is no false image of krishna. Every image is his, however if you want to know how he truly is, what his qualities are, what he actually is orginally, then you have to let him tell you that, until then you cannot understand him. .
To say there is no false image of Krishna can't be right. It would be easy for an unscrupulous or ignorant person to misrepresent Krishna to another, who would then form a false image in their mind. This is the problem. for example, with the 'bogus gurus' who changed Srila Prabhupadas original texts.

To the realized person, everything is Krishna, all forms are His - they are in Him and He is in them. But to the everyday, relativistic consciousness of most people, it is hard to see Krishna in any way at all, and all but impossible to see Him in forms of falible, weak and egotistical persons for example, or in the evil person.

It is true that if we want to know God, we must be open to Him. Such openess is not easy to attain. One of the main stumbling blocks in the way of its attainment is an overly dogmatic attitude, or cleaving to a too narrow a mental conception of the 'how He truly is'.

It is also true that meerly having read what God is and what He is like does not give realization by itself.

[sleeping jiva]

I was talkiing about the images like you've posted above, not images one forms in his mind. I don't know anything, I'm a lost soul completely controled by three modes of material nature. Prabhupada's books are cool, you can learn everything from them. U can see by yourself then, who's going to cheat you. The thing with the fallen gurus was that they killed Prabhupada, they wanted to leave him out. They changed his books and acted against his instructions, therefore I would study his original books in any case. He was a first class devotee and noone can be compared to him in this age, I'm not saying that from egotism, it's a fact. When this person left very precise instructions in his books, lectures and so on, we should trust him totally. Not just pick something and then exploit it for our own sake. That's why I'm glad that chie Cow Pie called me a parrot, because that's what the fallen gurus weren't. We should all just parrot the Bhagavadgita. It's just like that. That's a surrender. surrender to this flawless philosophy, surrender to Prabhupada -a first class devotee. If you're afraid, if you think it's a dogma, or manipulation, then read his books anyhow and try to understand philosophically. But y'know the thing is as soon as your attitude is ok I'm going to challenge, you won't be able to surender. The one who wants to find a flaw he will find it. But I'm asking you what pushed this desire to challenge? Ask yourself that question. Isn't that dogma too?

[turtlefriend]

Hare Krishna Hare Krishna
Krishna Krishna Hare Hare
Hare Rama Hare Rama
Rama Rama Hare Hare

Squee! That was in HAIR!

*clears throat* sorry, continue.

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

I'm listening to Hair right now actually :) I saw it for the first time a couple of weeks ago...and I wanted to run up when they started singing the maha-mantra... :) It made me very happy. Do stick around...it is seriously happier than it seems right now... :)

[Jedi]

I'm listening to Hair right now actually :) I saw it for the first time a couple of weeks ago...and I wanted to run up when they started singing the maha-mantra... :) It made me very happy. Do stick around...it is seriously happier than it seems right now... :)
Yes, do your best in everything that you do and chant, thats the best service anyone can give to krishna :D

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

Yes, do your best in everything that you do and chant, thats the best service anyone can give to krishna :DI think that that's the best advice :) Reading the books and stuff...that's just the icing on the cake... If you start with chanting...things only get better :)...as long as its all in love...its all good :)

[BlackBillBlake]

I was talkiing about the images like you've posted above, not images one forms in his mind. I don't know anything, I'm a lost soul completely controled by three modes of material nature. Prabhupada's books are cool, you can learn everything from them. U can see by yourself then, who's going to cheat you. The thing with the fallen gurus was that they killed Prabhupada, they wanted to leave him out. They changed his books and acted against his instructions, therefore I would study his original books in any case. He was a first class devotee and noone can be compared to him in this age, I'm not saying that from egotism, it's a fact. When this person left very precise instructions in his books, lectures and so on, we should trust him totally. Not just pick something and then exploit it for our own sake. That's why I'm glad that chie Cow Pie called me a parrot, because that's what the fallen gurus weren't. We should all just parrot the Bhagavadgita. It's just like that. That's a surrender. surrender to this flawless philosophy, surrender to Prabhupada -a first class devotee. If you're afraid, if you think it's a dogma, or manipulation, then read his books anyhow and try to understand philosophically. But y'know the thing is as soon as your attitude is ok I'm going to challenge, you won't be able to surender. The one who wants to find a flaw he will find it. But I'm asking you what pushed this desire to challenge? Ask yourself that question. Isn't that dogma too?
Afraid I'm not with you here Jiva. I have already said I don't challenge Krishna, I've read many of Prabhupadas books over a period of thirty years and done much chanting.It seems you have not understood the points I raised in my previous posts rgarding the mind and its image or idea of God.
When you say we should 'not just pick something and exploit it for our own sake' I assume you think this iswhat I'am doing. But if so, to what end? And what exactly am I exploiting?
Prabhupada said that Krishna Consciousness is for the more intelligent, so please display some intelligence in responding to these posts.

[sleeping jiva]

'not just pick something and exploit it for our own sake' -that was meant for people who exploit Krishna in order to get control over people, or just push their own egotistical purposes. I didn't mean it in connection with you. These people they are creating their own versions of what Prabhupada said, what Krishna said, and so on. They create interpretations. They create false image of Krishna. They create false image of Krishna in people's minds. There's no need to create any image of Krishna, or interpret, do u follow? Bhagavadgita is Krishna Himself -it's not an interpretation. Deities are Krishna Himself, it's not interpretation, representation. There's no need to interpret -just tell them what you've read and you're a perfect Vaishnava. When you quote Prabhupada, or Krishna from Bhagavadgita without any addings you utter Krishna's words! They're Krishna -your words are Krishna -very powerful and they're perfect -no flaw.

But talking about the method how to receive the Krishna knowledge -we should first surender, that is requisite. We should not read, or chant without any beside reasons, except attain Krishna consciousness. If you don't surender in the beginning, it's hard to surender afterwards. It's like to jump into abyss, you must leave everything behind from your mental speculation. Open yourself and you'll understand. You can't loose anything except worries and paranoia. If you read the books, but you don't like Krishna, then it is hard. Also if you chant, but you have no sincerity within you, then it's futile. Then it's not a real Krishna consciousness.

cool pictures, keep them coming...

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

Yes, there are things in this world that we cannot control...not just false-gurus...but the people who think that they own the world and are putting harm to it...but snipping at eachother over it (when, as far as I know, none of us are these things) isn't helping...what helps is doing our part by spreading the good things. "You have to be aware"...Aware, aware....yes I know I said that...but there's a difference with being aware and paranoid. Paranoia is what prevents us from doing something... So forget watching your back, we know its out there...that which any common man would call evil...but there's only one way to combat that in the end and that's love. I don't care who you are or what you are....love is the answer in the end. Krishna is love, regardless of whether or not you call Him Krishna, He is love. Spreading Krishna consciousness...isn't that like spreading love? There's nothing material about it and it is unconditional...and with it perhaps we can do our part to save the world...I think that they go hand in hand...

So instead of snipping about specifics...dogma even... let's forget it... Let's love...Chanting, why is it so good? Because its pure and its love...it brings us together, does it not? In the end, that's what it is about...let's all join together and spread love...because that is something that is non-material, not illusion, it exists...

[sleeping jiva]

exactly. When you love Krishna, it is a real love, because you're not conditioned. You don't need to be afraid that you won't be loved. And also there are no other reasons. Because material love may be still imperfect, we love, because we want to be loved. we think it's unconditional, but it's still conditional.

When you love Krishna, the answer is here right away. It's a fulfillment of all desires. When you love Krishna, you love everybody in the whole universe, because that is Krishna and the whole universe loves you, because Krishna loves you. haribol!

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

Well...for the most part yes...but I don't think that love is material. Lust is. There's a difference. There is no illusion with love...its not palpable...but with it we can save the world because you need not be greedy with it...it is one thing that we can desire and not be guilty about it...it is the purpose...love. Simple, eh? Love is Krishna, love is us because we are part of God. And God saves, love saves. God helps he who helps himself...and I think that's the point...let's all love and we fill that cliche in... :)

Haribol! :) :)

[sleeping jiva]

no, I didn't say that love is material. Love for people is material, love for Krishna is spiritual. yeah, sometimes people think it's love, but it's lust.

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

See...I don't think that love for people is material... ::shrug:: I guess its just how you look at things...

[BlackBillBlake]

See...I don't think that love for people is material... ::shrug:: I guess its just how you look at things...
You are right SGB love is never materiel. It is a question of where we direct our love. Love for people - that's natural. The problem is that none of these relationships are permanant. The person we love may die, or leave - or we may feel love for someone one day, then later, we don't feel the same way. This is the way of all relationships in the world of Maya. We become attatched to these human loves, and we suffer under the gunas correspondingly.
If we direct our love to God, to Krishna, then this is permanant. Krishna already loves everyone eternally. and with a love far surpassing any human love. When we love the Lord, we rise above all these limited relationships and enter, or return to our true being. Krishna wants to give gifts that no human love can give - eternal bliss, knowledge and love.
If there is love in us it is because we are part and parcel of Krishna, and we partake in some of His qualities to some extent. Therefore we should try to offer our love to Him.
As for spreading Krishna's message, yes!! let's do all we can !

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

:) :) :)

Hare Krishna!

[ChiefCowpie]

there is "conditional love" and "unconditional love" for people...conditional love probably shouldn't even be called love because love by its nature is without conditions...that which led Chaitanya Mahaprabhu or Jesus Christ or any avatara to advent is their unconditional love for people...to assist their awakening to the Truth...seeing them for what they truly are...spiritual beings...this love is also known as compassion...and too, people as enlightened beings share blissfull and happy pastimes as that love which is God is ever increasing in its joy as its passed amongst the people...so yes, love for people is cool..."all you need is love love love is all you need"

[Jedi]

The paragraphs below have been taken out from "Nectar of Devotion"

Śrīla (http://vedabase.net/s/srila) Rūpa (http://vedabase.net/r/rupa) Gosvāmī, after consulting various scriptures, has enumerated the transcendental qualities of the Lord as follows: (1) beautiful features of the entire body; (2) marked with all auspicious characteristics; (3) extremely pleasing; (4) effulgent; (5) strong; (6) ever youthful; (7) wonderful linguist; (8) truthful; (9) talks pleasingly; (10) fluent; (11) highly learned; (12) highly intelligent; (13) a genius; (14) artistic; (15) extremely clever; (16) expert; (17) grateful; (18) firmly determined; (19) an expert judge of time and circumstances; (20) sees and speaks on the authority of Vedas, or scriptures; (21) pure; (22) self-controlled; (23) steadfast; (24) forbearing; (25) forgiving; (26) grave; (27) self-satisfied; (28) possessing equilibrium; (29) magnanimous; (30) religious; (31) heroic; (32) compassionate; (33) respectful; (34) gentle; (35) liberal; (36) shy; (37) the protector of surrendered souls; (38) happy; (39) the well-wisher of devotees; (40) controlled by love; (41) all-auspicious; (42) most powerful; (43) all-famous; (44) popular; (45) partial to devotees; (46) very attractive to all women; (47) all-worshipable; (48) all-opulent; (49) all-honorable; (50) the supreme controller. The Supreme Personality of Godhead has all these fifty transcendental qualities in fullness as deep as the ocean. In other words, the extent of His qualities is inconceivable.
As parts and parcels of the Supreme Lord, the individual living entities can also possess all of these qualities in minute quantities, provided they become pure devotees of the Lord. In other words, all of the above transcendental qualities can be present in the devotees in minute quantity, whereas the qualities in fullness are always present in the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

Besides these, there are other transcendental qualities which are described by Lord Śiva (http://vedabase.net/s/siva) to Pārvatī (http://vedabase.net/p/parvati) in the Padma (http://vedabase.net/p/padma) Purāṇa (http://vedabase.net/p/purana), and in the First Canto of Śrīmad (http://vedabase.net/s/srimad)-Bhāgavatam (http://vedabase.net/b/bhagavatam) in connection with a conversation between the deity of the earth and the King of religion, Yamarāja. It is said therein, "Persons Who who are desirous of becoming great personalities must be decorated with the following qualities: truthfulness, cleanliness, mercy, perseverance, renunciation, peacefulness, simplicity, control of the senses, equilibrium of the mind, austerity, equality, forbearance, placidity, learning, knowledge, detachment, opulence, chivalry, influence, strength, memory, independence, tactfulness, luster, patience, kind-heartedness, ingenuity, gentility, mannerliness, determination, perfection in all knowledge, proper execution, possession of all objects of enjoyment, gravity, steadiness, faithfulness, fame, respectfulness and lack of false egotism." Persons who are desiring to become great souls cannot be without any of the above qualities, so we can know for certain that these qualities are found in Lord Kṛṣṇa (http://vedabase.net/k/krsna), the supreme soul.

Besides all of the above-mentioned fifty qualities, Lord Kṛṣṇa (http://vedabase.net/k/krsna) possesses five more, which are sometimes partially manifested in the persons of Lord Brahmā (http://vedabase.net/b/brahma) or Lord Śiva (http://vedabase.net/s/siva). These transcendental qualities are as follows: (51) changeless; (52) all-cognizant; (53) ever fresh; (54) sac-cid-ānanda (http://vedabase.net/a/ananda) (possessing an eternal blissful body); (55) possessing all mystic perfections.

Kṛṣṇa (http://vedabase.net/k/krsna) also possesses five other qualities, which are manifest in the body of Nārāyaṇa (http://vedabase.net/n/narayana), and they are listed as follows. (56) He has inconceivable potency. (57) Uncountable universes generate from His body. (58) He is the original source of all incarnations. (59) He is the giver of salvation to the enemies whom He kills. (60) He is the attractor of liberated souls. All these transcendental qualities are manifest wonderfully in the personal feature of Lord Kṛṣṇa (http://vedabase.net/k/krsna).

Besides these sixty transcendental qualities, Kṛṣṇa (http://vedabase.net/k/krsna) has four more, which are not manifest even in the Nārāyaṇa (http://vedabase.net/n/narayana) form of Godhead, what to speak of the demigods or living entities. They are as follows. (61) He is the performer of wonderful varieties of pastimes (especially His childhood pastimes). (62) He is surrounded by devotees endowed with wonderful love of Godhead. (63) He can attract all living entities all over the universes by playing on His flute. (64) He has a wonderful excellence of beauty which cannot be rivaled anywhere in the creation.

Adding to the list these four exceptional qualities of Kṛṣṇa (http://vedabase.net/k/krsna), it is to be understood that the aggregate number of qualities of Kṛṣṇa (http://vedabase.net/k/krsna) is sixty-four. Śrīla (http://vedabase.net/s/srila) Rūpa (http://vedabase.net/r/rupa) Gosvāmī has attempted to give evidences from various scriptures about all sixty-four qualities present in the person of the Supreme Lord.

[ChiefCowpie]

Sleeping Jiva is not a lunatic, he is saying the truth. The problem with him is that he is not yet self realized, but he acts in such a way that he wants to be... therefore he appears as if he is a lunatic even when he is not.

I read a few of his posts and I realize that the problem here is not him and it is definitely not Gdkumar or anyone. The problem here is your attitudes.

Try to understand people as humans, relieve yourself of duality. There is nothing wrong in praising one another along our paths, what is the truth? - it is something that is with in us- that which drives us from the animal life to the divine.

Truth to all of us is relative. What you think is true to you and to your consciousness is the truth. What you think is false is false.sleeping jiva's one sightedness one the path of self realization of Krishna for me is quite inspiring but his criticisms and diatribes of Sridhara Maharaja, Narayana Maharaja and others here who happen to disagree with him is not an aspect of Truth but what is known as the mad elephant offense in the garden of the heart where the mad elephant rampages and stomps upon one's devotional creeper...it is simplistic to me when you say the problem is with our attitudes...yes, we may have some attitude problems but i hope sleeping jiva leaves behind his assault upon Prabhupada's Godbrothers and other Saints and Sages who speak of the same love and truth which is Krishna but only choose a different set of words to express it...read of the ocean of silence between words and one will see no differences

there are three pillars of vaishnavism and they are, sadhu, sastra and guru...i feel the medicine for sleeping jiva is sadhu as for him to have the association of one who has truly understood the mysteries of Krishna would convey to him the gentleness and love of the heart such an understanding requires...indeed, i feel he has had the oppurtunity in association in such a person as gdkumar and so hopefully he will return

yes, Prabhupada's books are great wonders of joy and beauty and wisdom but he seems to use them in way that where one is beaten and clubbed with these books...the message of the books is gained through bhakti...love and not attacking people with its teachings

but i agree, Truth is relative and each one alone has their glimpse of Krishna...and each has a light that shines within that will illuminate our world in a splendor untold in the coming days...years

[ChiefCowpie]

The idea that there is 'my truth' and 'your truth' is the thing I can't accept.
all the residents of vrndavana think of Krishna as "my Krishna"

[ChiefCowpie]

idea of Krishna...Krishna in the mind


http://www.salagram.net/Rupa-Sanatana-dhyan.jpg
Manasa Puja and Dhyana

by JTCd 30th January 2002

To read parts of this page the Balaram FONT (http://www.salagram.net/fonts.htm) is required - download it HERE (http://www.salagram.net/fonts.htm) What is Manasa puja?


Simply manasa puja means to worship in the mind. A devotee recently asked the following question on the www.pamho.net (http://www.pamho.net/) Deity worship forum:

>How is the manasa-puja being conducted? If, for example, the sixteen
>upacaras are to be offered during manasa-puja, do we then offer each item in
>the mind by showing it to the deity (e.g. putting a full plate of bogha
>bevor the deity). Or do we have to do the whole precedure like in "reality"
>(e.g. if bogha is to be offered: idam asanam, etad padyam.....idam
>naivdeyam.............idam acamaniam......)?

There are certainly two ways of doing manasa puja. One either meditates that s/he is worshipping the deity in the mind in which case all services are performed exactly like one would do in the external temple. Offerings are done with all procedures and mantras that would be done externally. The other method of manasa puja is more for raganuga bhaktas. They meditate on serving the Supreme Lord and his companions directly or with the help of others. In this case also puja is performed with all the procedures however the persons being offered the puja are not deities but the Lord and His entourage in Vaikuntha/Goloka, etc.

>What is the standard for manasa-puja?

I don't think that there is any standard for manasa puja in ISKCON.

ys Gaura Keshava das ( X-Com-Textno: PAMHO5318004 )

another devotee also responded with another nice reply, as follows:

X-Com-Textno: PAMHO5330488

According to Sanatana Gosvami manasa puja should accompany the regular daily external worship.

There are different ways to offer manasa puja. One way is to meditate on offering all the items, much like a slide show. Just visualize each of the sixteen items and their appropriate circumstances, one after another. You may also use an acamana cup and spoon and offer the items along with mantra. This serves as an external device to assist in the meditation. It is important that the manasa puja should not be interrupted.

> When I use manasa puja (for example, if I'm on a very long plane journey
> and have to worship my Govardhana sila but have no facility or
> cleanliness..) I make a great endeavor to do every single step as if in
> reality. I also endeavor to do so mentally as if "seeing through my own
> eyes" rather than "seeing myself" as if a "movie."

As far as possible you should be clean when you do manasa puja. Please see the description of the brahmana and the sweet rice in Nectar Of Devotion.

Your servant,
Nrsimha Kavaca dasa

[ChiefCowpie]

If one does not know any formal pUja prayog, or for one reason or another due to travelling, one can do a manasa pUja. It can be done anywhere, at any time, you dont have to spend a paisa on pUja materials either. manasa pUja is simply worshipping in mind. You imagine the entire sequence of the worship. It is not inferior to actual worship. In fact it is considered in some schools as being superior, as it is easy, and engages the mind without distraction. The usual is to prepare oneself through various pratiprokshanas such as bhut suddhi, pranayama, nyasa, dhyana, achaman (even sotariya achaman) etc. These will help one to focus the mind properly, and that is the essense of manasa puja. In actual physical pUja while situated in front of the Deity you may be sitting and the mind goes here and there thinking about your bank account, this and that. Therefore preparing the mind is essential to successfuly performing the pUja to the Lord. We have seen and experienced personally that without focusing the mind, by merely engaging the external senses in pUja one may do the function, even get some recognition for dresing the Archa-vighraha nicely, but the yoga that one should attain through such Ijya (worship) was not achieved. It can be easy to train anyone to follow a system and go through the motions of "worshipping the Lord" but in mAnasa pUja it is not so possible. Thus, free from lesser or possible "distracted seva" manasa's fixed or focused attention makes it higher seva.

In the process of worshiping the Deity it is sometimes enjoined that one worship the Deity within the mind. In the Padma Puräëa, Uttara-khaëòa, it is said, “All persons can generally worship within the mind.” The Gautaméya Tantra states, “For a sannyäsé who has no home, worship of the Deity within the mind is recommended.” In the Närada-païcarätra it is stated by Lord Näräyaëa that worship of the Deity within the mind is called mänasa-püjä, One can become free from the four miseries by this method. Sometimes worship from the mind can be independently executed. According to the instruction of Avirhotra Muni, one of the nava-yogendras, as mentioned in Çrémad-Bhägavatam, one may worship the Deity by chanting all the mantras. Eight kinds of Deities are mentioned in the çästra, and the mental Deity is one of them. In this regard, the following description is given in the Brahma-vaivarta Puräëa.
In the city of Pratiñöhäna-pura, long ago, there resided a brähmaëa who was poverty-stricken but innocent and not dissatisfied. One day he heard a discourse in an assembly of brähmaëas concerning how to worship the Deity in the temple. In that meeting, he also heard that the Deity may be worshiped within the mind. After this incident, the brähmaëa, having bathed in the Godävaré River, began mentally worshiping the Deity. He would wash the temple within his mind, and then in his imagination he would bring water from all the sacred rivers in golden and silver waterpots. He collected all kinds of valuable paraphernalia for worship, and he worshiped the Deity very gorgeously, beginning from bathing the Deity and ending with offering ärati. Thus he felt great happiness. After many years had passed in this way, one day within his mind he cooked nice sweet rice with ghee to worship the Deity. He placed the sweet rice on a golden dish and offered it to Lord Kåñëa, but he felt that the sweet rice was very hot, and therefore he touched it with his finger. He immediately felt that his finger had been burned by the hot sweet rice, and thus he began to lament. While the brähmaëa was in pain, Lord Viñëu in Vaikuëöha began smiling, and the goddess of fortune inquired from the Lord why He was smiling. Lord Viñëu then ordered His associates to bring the brähmaëa to Vaikuëöha. Thus the brähmaëa attained the liberation of sämépya, the facility of living near the Supreme Personality of Godhead. (Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupad. Srimad Bhagavatam 7:5:23-24. purport excerpt.)

Similarly there's a story about a great devotee of Lord Shiva who practiced manasa puja: In thamizhnADu there is place called thiruninRavUr. In that place there lived a brahmana called pUsalar who is well trained in veda-s and agama-s. This brahmana had a burning desire. In that village there was no temple for Lord shiva and pUsalar wanted to construct a temple. Eventhough he had the desire, he did not have the material resources to support it. But pUsalar had the knowledge of building a temple for Lord shiva according to Agama vidhiH. After a long contemplation on his inability to build a temple, pUsalAr got an idea to accomplish what he desired.

pUsalAr thought even though he cannot build a temple outside, he can indeed build one in his mind. From that day onwards he started building the temple. Even though it was built in mind, he went through every step as if it built normally. Every single detail, like amout of material needed and labor required was planned carefully and executed. Finally the construction was completed. It took pUsalAr the same amount of time it will require to build the actual temple. After the completion, pUsalAr fixed an auspicious time and date for kumbAbhishekam and invited the Lord to be present and sanctify the ceremony.

It so happened that the pallava king wanted to perform kumbAbhishekam to the temple he constructed on the same date and began making aranngements for it. Lord who is present everywhere, to show the greatness of his poor devotee, appeared in the dream of the king and commanded him to change the date. Lord shiva told the king that HE is going to enter the magnificient temple built by the devotee pUsalAr in thiruninRavUr and will be not available for the king. Next day, astonished pallava king with his ministers started out to thiruninRavUr in search of pUsalAr and
the temple. After reaching thiruninRavUr, he could not find the temple or any details about it from the local people. Finally, he and his ministers, managed to locate pUsalar's house and asked him the details (after informing about the dream).

pUsalar was stunned and was overcome by waves of emotion. Tears veiled his eyes thinking about his Lord's love and grace. Finally after overcoming his emotions, when he narrated the details of his temple. The whole assembly was overcome with joy and emotion. King paid his respects to the great pUsalar and returned back to his capital. thiru pUsalAr (in tamizh thiru = shrI), as planned did the kumbabhishekam in all grandeur and daily at all six times did pUjA to Lord shiva according to the rules laid down by agAma-s.

Sometimes there's a misunderstanding that we have to artificially put ourselves into some siddha-pranali state and thus whilst still situated in a material form (this stoola sarira - linga sarira) try to rise above it's demands extraniously. The fact of the matter is that to attain constant absorbtion one starts with absorbtion. The process is stated that by some faith (sradha) we engage in associating with like minded devotees (sadhu sanga) by such sat sanga naturally devotional activities take place (bhajana kriya - sravanam kritanam vishnu smaranam using all the paraphernalia of any of them in the Lord's service), to do that requires that we avoid items or behaviour that is not condusive to the progression and maintainance of the Lord's service (anartha nirvritti - removing unwanted things from our association/hearts). By so following this naturaly organic process one will become fixed (nistha) that steadiness in constant absorbtion will allow a taste (ruchi) to develop. As the flower of ruci blossoms into 100% fixation on service to Krishna and 100% negation of anything that brings one to material consciousness asakti or trascendentalism is born. This is real Krishna Consciousness, this is the state we aspire for. It cannot be attained cheaply.

[ChiefCowpie]

Further more when we are doing such puja it is not that we try to try and visualize ourselves/myself rendering service to Krishna artificially; rather through our understanding of dhyana we just visualize the bona fide lila descriptions of the Divine pastimes of the Lord. We cannot forcibly enter into those pastimes in our present state, it is not possible. But through manasa pUja one can and does experience the very same activities that the Deity has done by engaging the mind in such processes as mentioned abouve. As for actual seva pUja seva we have in reading and discussion heard that rather than seeing oneself in the picture, of what I'm doing with Krishna or what I'm offering to Krishna, or any of those that focus us in the centre, we have been told that the process is, and have experienced such that to only "visualize my delicate hands" when performing service, and otherwise be an observer of the bona fide revealed and established Lilas. For the Lord resides in His approved Deity forms in His eternal lilas, He makes Himself available to us to render service to through the system of service in practice, vaidhi bhakti. Anything else would be artificial whilst in the present jada prakrita-bhakta condition, without knowing my/our eternal Sthayi-bhava awareness of our identity, being outside of "Nitya-lila".

As stated in Bhagavad Gita:

karmendriyani samyamya
ya aste manasa smaran
indriyarthan vimudhatma
mithyacarah sa ucyate

TRANSLATION
One who restrains the senses of action but whose mind dwells on sense objects certainly deludes himself and is called a pretender. (BG 3:6.)

yas tv indriyani manasa
niyamyarabhate 'rjuna
karmendriyaih karma-yogam
asaktah sa visisyate

TRANSLATION
On the other hand, if a sincere person tries to control the active senses by the mind and begins karma-yoga [in Krishna consciousness] without attachment, he is by far superior. (BG 3:7.)

Similar process is described in the Srimad Bhagavatam 3:28:5-7:

TEXT 5
maunam sad-asana jayah
sthairyam prana jayah sanaih
pratyaharas cendriyanam
visayan manasa hrdi

TRANSLATION
One must observe silence, acquire steadiness by practicing different yogic postures, control the breathing of the vital air, withdraw the senses from sense objects and thus concentrate the mind on the heart.

TEXT 6
sva-dhisnyanam eka-dese
manasa prana-dharanam
vaikuntha-lilabhidhyanam
samadhanam tathatmanah

TRANSLATION
Fixing the vital air and the mind in one of the six circles of vital air circulation within the body, thus concentrating one's mind on the transcendental pastimes of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is called samadhi, or samadhana, of the mind.

TEXT 7
etair anyais ca pathibhir
mano dustam asat-patham
buddhya yunjita sanakair
jita-prano hy atandritah

TRANSLATION
By these processes, or any other true process, one must control the contaminated, unbridled mind, which is always attracted by material enjoyment, and thus fix himself in thought of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

So, and in great humility knowing my great lacking in understanding and realisation in this topic, I try to pass on something of what I have been told regarding such focused and singleminded pUjas, "...try now before death so that your understanding of Nitya-lila and serving without a material body will have already become attractive to your heart and you will simply enter at death a state of consciousness which you are already familiar with and even attracted too."

MÂNASA DEHA GEHA

(1)

mânasa deha, geha, jo kichu mor (A III G A III A M7 I Bm I A I)

arpilû tuwâ pade, nanda-kisor! (Fm I Bm I E D M7 E A ) (h)

(2)

sampade vipade, jîvane-marane (E I Fm I D A 7 I BmA) (h)

dây mama gelâ, towâ o-pada barane (A G I A I Bm D A) (h)

(3)

mârobi râkhobi - jo icchâ tohârâ (A III G A III A M7 I Bm I A I)

nitya-dâsa prati tuwâ adhikârâ(Fm I Bm I E D M7 E A ) (h)

(4)

janmâobi moe icchâ jadi tor (E I Fm I D A 7 I BmA) (h)

bhakta-grhe jani janma hau mor (A G I A I Bm D A) (h)

(5)

kîta janma hau jathâ tuwâ dâs (A III G A III A M7 I Bm I A I)

bahir mukha brahma-janme nâhi âs (Fm I Bm I E D M7 E A ) (h)

(6)

bhukti-mukti-sprhâ vihîna je bhaktah (E I Fm I D A 7 I BmA) (h)

labhaite tâko sanga anurakta (A G I A I Bm D A) (h)

(7)

janaka, jananî, dayata, tanay (A III G A IIIA M7 I Bm I A I)

prabhu, guru, pati - tuhû sarva-moy (Fm I Bm I E D M7 E A ) (h)

(8)

bhakativinoda kohe, suno kâna! (E I Fm I D A 7 I BmA) (h)

râdhâ-nâtha! tuhû hâmâra parâna (A G I A I Bm D A) (h)



(chords harmonium)






Translation

Mind, Body and Family

1)

Mind, body, and family, whatever may be mine, I have surrendered atYour lotus feet, O youthful son of Nanda!

2)

In good fortune or in bad, in life or at death, all my difficulties have disappeared by choosing those feet of Yours as my only shelter.

3)

Slay me or protect me as You wish, for You are the master of Your eternal servant.

4)

If it is Your will that I be born again, then may it be in the home of Your devotee.

5)

May I be born again even as a worm, so long as I may remain Your devotee. I have no desire to be born as a Brahma averse to You.

6)

I yearn for the company of that devotee who is completely devoid of all desire for worldly enjoyment or liberation.

7)

Father, mother, lover, son, Lord, preceptor, and husband; You are everything to me.

8) Thakura Bhaktivinoda says, "O Kana, please hear me! O Lord of Radha, You are my life and soul!"

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

If you ever get the chance... get this album Breath of the Heart by Krishna Das... its absolutely and it is laced with the many names of Sri Krsna and the maha mantra is everywhere...its soo beautiful...

This is the track listing...

1- Baba Hanuman
2- Kainchi Hare Krishna
3- Ma Durga
4- Kashi Vishwanath Gange
5- Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya
6- Brindavan Hare Ram

I came upon it by accident yesterday in the library...and I must say its a beautiful and fortunate accident :)

[BlackBillBlake]

all the residents of vrndavana think of Krishna as "my Krishna"
Yes, but they are not ordinary, conditioned beings. They are mad with love for Krishna. And even if they think 'my Krishna', its the self same Krishna they're all thinking of.
What I mean is that the absolute truth, Brahman, is 'one without a second'. Truth is truth; the individual understanding of Truth is relative, unless one is fully realized.

[ChiefCowpie]

i love Krishna dasa's recordings...i have them all...
http://www.krishnadas.com/main/main.html

if possible, get his cd "Pilgrim Heart" or "Live on Earth"

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

I might just...I absolutely love the one I'm listening to right now...I esp love Kainchi Hare Krishna...the way that he presents the maha mantra is soo beautiful and joyous... :)

[BlackBillBlake]

On the subject of music, I like 'Krishna Lila' by Cheb i Sabbah -


You can get info on this at

www.chebisabbah.com/ (http://www.chebisabbah.com/)

A blend of traditional Indian, and modern electronic - and a very successful one in my opinion.

[jailmate]

Allah haz spoken 4 Ohshama, an Ih type this 4 the ultimate religion.


one religion HAIR

[ChiefCowpie]

agree Black Bill, the brijabhasis think "my Krishna" but the experience is one of "our Krishna" all are swimming in a joyous love while the conditioned sectarianist thinks "my God" and all over the world, all the my God's battle in war

it will be a great step towards world peace when all see that "my God" is "our God"

[ChiefCowpie]

On the subject of music, I like 'Krishna Lila' by Cheb i Sabbah -


You can get info on this at

www.chebisabbah.com/ (http://www.chebisabbah.com/)

A blend of traditional Indian, and modern electronic - and a very successful one in my opinion.
gracias...i'm always looking for new music...will check out

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

agree Black Bill, the brijabhasis think "my Krishna" but the experience is one of "our Krishna" all are swimming in a joyous love while the conditioned sectarianist thinks "my God" and all over the world, all the my God's battle in war

it will be a great step towards world peace when all see that "my God" is "our God"
I agree. :)

[sleeping jiva]

Nitai: "Thus consciously engaged in devotional service in the association of devotees, a person gains distaste for sense gratification, both in this world and in the next, by constantly thinking about the activities of the Lord. This process of Krishna consciousness is the easiest process of mystic power; when one is actually situated on that path of devotional service, he is able to control the mind."

Prabhupada:



bhaktya puman jata-viraga aindriyad
drsta-srutan mad-racananucintaya
cittasya yatto grahane yoga-yukto
yatisyate rjubhir yoga-margaih


So the whole process of understanding the Absolute Truth... Absolute Truth means the Supreme Person, the Supreme Being, Absolute. There is no contradictory. Krsna and Krsna's name, Krsna's form, Krsna's activities, Krsna's paraphernalia, Krsna's attributes--everything Krsna. That is called Absolute Truth. There is no difference. Krsna and Krsna's form is not different. Krsna's hand and Krsna's leg not different. Just like we have got difference: this left hand is different from the right hand; the nose is different from the ear. We have got. Because this is called sagata-vigata-vibheda(?). Krsna hasn't got that thing. That is called Absolute. It is stated in the Brahma-samhita, angani yasya sakalendriya-vrttimanti. Angani, we have got different parts of the body, limbs, for different purposes. But Krsna can serve any purpose from any limbs of His body. Krsna can eat by seeing only. Krsna can go by thinking only. There are so many description that Krsna is Absolute. So these contradictory things, how one can understand of the Absolute? He is absolute, advaya-jnana. Absolute means no duality; everything is one.

So viraga, bhaktya puman jata-viraga aindriyad. Here our material disease is that we want to satisfy our sense. This is material life. The whole material civilization is going on, we have repeatedly said... Advancement of civilization means advancement of sense gratification. That's all. So bhakti means just the opposite. So, so long we are, I mean to say, very much interested in sense gratification, there is no question of bhakti. That is not possible. So we have to reduce the tendency for sense gratification by increasing our devotional activities. That is the process. Therefore it is said, bhaktya puman jata-viraga. Viraga, from where? Viraga means distasteful. Virakti. The other word is virakti: "No, no, I don't like." That is called viraga.

Raga means attachment, and vi means vigata. Vigata-raga. And from viraga--vairagya. Jnana-vairagya. This is wanted. Human life is meant for jnana and vairagya. Two things required. We are continuing this material existence on account of raga, attachment, attachment for sense gratification. That is the cause of material bondage. Material bondage means, we have explained several times, to accept one body, then create another body. We have got now this human form of body, and according to our, I mean to say, affection or infection to different qualities of the nature, we are creating another body. So in this way we are entangled. So unless we become viraga, viraga aindriyat, sense gratification... These different changes of body are being possible on account of sense gratification. Nature or God or Krsna will give me full facility. Just like in the Western countries especially, they are now trying to become naked, nudies. So nature will give them to stand naked like a tree, or tree, for many years. "You are so fond of become nudie. All right, you stand up here for ten thousand years without any dress." Nature will give you. Those who have no discrimination for eating--"Anything, damn rascal, let me. Give me. I will eat it"--"All right, then you can take the body of a pig and eat up to stool."

So nature will give you. Karanam guna-sango 'sya.



purusah prakrti-stho hi
bhunkte prakrti-jan gunan
karanam guna-sango 'sya
sad-asad-yoni-janmasu


Why we are getting different bodies? Because we have got different tendency for sense gratification. Indriya, aindriyat. This is the disease, material disease. Everyone has got tendency for sense gratification, but not all of them of the same type. They have got different types. So our material bondage means these different types of sense gratification. Therefore we have to stop this. We have to be detestful from this sense gratification. Then our spiritual life will begin. That is possible by bhakti.

Therefore here it is said, bhaktya puman jata-viraga. Bhakti is so powerful that if you engage yourself in the bhakti-marga or bhakti-yoga... Here it is said, rjubhir yoga-margaih. Rjubhih means very easy to perform. How? Now, drsta-srutan mad-racananucintaya. Drsta. You can see Krsna. Krsna is kind enough. Although Krsna is beyond our vision--we cannot see with these eyes Krsna--but Krsna has agreed to be seen by you or by us. How? He has assumed this arca-vigraha. Krsna, this vigraha--don't think it is stone. Even it is stone you think, but Krsna can become visible before you like a stone, because you cannot see beyond stone. That is Krsna's mercy. Because your eyes or senses are so imperfect that you cannot see Krsna present everywhere in His original spiritual... We have got difference between spiritual and material. We have got because we are imperfect. But Krsna has no such distinction. Because He is Absolute, He can become spiritual, He can become material, as He likes. That does not make any difference of Krsna. Then how Krsna is almighty, all-powerful? He can change matter into spirit, spirit into matter. That is Krsna. So don't think that, as the atheist class men, they think, that "They are worshiping an idol." Even it is an idol, still Krsna. That is absolute. That is absolute nature of Krsna. Even you think it is stone, it is metal, it is wood, still, He is Krsna.

So how He is Krsna, that will require your bhakti. Here it is said, bhaktya, anucintaya. If you are thoughtful, if you are philosopher, and plus bhakti, then you will understand that even Krsna is present here just like a stone, but stone is also Krsna. How stone is also Krsna? Now, Krsna says in the Bhagavad-gita,



bhumir apo 'nalo vayuh
kham mano buddhir eva ca
ahankara itiyam me
bhinna prakrtir astadha


Me prakrtih: "It is My nature." Bhinna me prakrtir astadha. So stone is another formation of earth. Earth, water, air, sky, mind, intelligence--they're all Krsna. Because Krsna says, bhinna me prakrtir astadha. (aside)That's all right. Get up. Nothing is different from Krsna. Everything is Krsna's energy. The Mayavadi philosophers, they think that "Because everything is God, everything is Krsna, then where is Krsna? Krsna is finished." But actually that is not. Krsna is Krsna; at the same time, He is everything. That is Krsna. That we can understand by bhakti. Therefore it is said, bhaktya. Bhaktya. In Bhagavad-gita also, Krsna said, bhaktya mam abhijanati. These things can be understood not by ordinary person without any devotion. One who is bhakta, he can understand that Krsna is everything and everything is Krsna. Krsna is everything--that is drsta. When a bhakta sees a tree, he sees Krsna. That is bhakta's vision.

It is explained in the Caitanya-caritamrta,



sthavara-jangama dekhe na dekhe tara murti
sarvatra haya nija ista-deva-sphurti


A devotee, sthavara-jangama... Sthavara means which cannot move. Just like tree, it cannot move, or a mountain, it does not move. And jangama means moving. Just like we are moving, animals are moving, and other, so many other, living entities, they are moving. So a advanced devotee, he sees both of them, the standing, immovable and movable, but he does not see immovable or movable; he sees Krsna. There is another statement in the Brahma-samhita, premanjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santah sadaiva hrdayesu vilokayanti. Sadaiva means always. Sada eva, sadaiva. Who sees? Now, one who is devotee, one who is fully absorbed in love of Godhead, premanjana-cchurita, or whose eyes are anointed with love of Godhead. Not this eye. Premanjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilo... That bhakti required. Premanjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena. Santah, saintly person, sadaiva hrdayesu vilokayanti. That is the position of santah, always seeing Krsna. He does not see anything else except Krsna everywhere, but in everything, everywhere, the energy of Krsna.

[sleeping jiva]

I will give you a practical example. If you love your child, if you see the shoe of the child, immediately you see your child. If you see the toy of your child, you see your child immediately. If you hear the voice of your child, immediately you see the child. This is practical. Similarly, if you have actually developed love of Krsna... And Krsna has explained that everything is expansion of His energy; therefore nothing exists except Krsna. And if you have developed your love for Krsna, whatever you see, you will see Krsna. That is called bhaktya. Bhaktya, drsta, and sruta. Sruta means Vedic literature, sruti. You hear from authentic literature. Just like in the Brahma-samhita it is stated, cintamani-prakara-sadmasu kalpa-vrksa-laksavrtesu surabhir abhipalayantam. Now, apart from Brahma-samhita, we have heard, devotees have heard, that Krsna in Vrndavana used to go with His cowherd boyfriends in the pasturing ground. So hundreds and thousands of devotees are there in Vrndavana. They have not seen, but they have heard. They have not practically seen, but they have heard only. And they have seen the picture of Krsna with His boys, cowherd boys, or gopi friends. So a devotee can see and hear and immediately realize Krsna. That is possible because he has developed love. Premanjana-cchurita.

Unless one is advanced in krsna-prema, love of Krsna, he cannot see. He cannot understand. There is another verse in the Srimad... Atah sri-krsna-namadi na bhaved grahyam indriyaih. So these blunt senses... By these blunt senses even we cannot understand what is the name of Krsna, why these people are chanting Hare Krsna. We cannot understand. Atah sri-krsna-nam... Because Krsna realization begins from the name. Therefore name, Krsna's name, and Krsna is not different, absolute, but we cannot realize. But the practice, if you practice chanting Hare Krsna, then you will realize. Sevonmukhe hi jihvadau svayam eva sphuraty adah. When you actually, in devotional attitude, chant Hare Krsna mantra... Therefore it is advised that you should avoid the offenses in chanting. Then you will... By simply chanting Hare Krsna mantra, you will realize. Atah sri-krsna-namadi na bhaved grahyam indriyaih, sevonmukhe hi jihvadau. Jihvadau. Now, krsna-bhakti begins from jihva, from the tongue. People will be surprised, "How is that?" Yes. You can utilize your tongue simply by chanting and tasting krsna-prasadam. Then you will become krsna-bhakta.

Therefore it is so easy. Susukham kartum avyayam, in the Bhagavad-gita. Susukham kartum avyayam. To execute devotional service it is very easy and susukham, very nice and pleasing also. Just like this chanting and dancing. Even the child takes pleasure, what to speak of others? Others may be sophisticated, but a child is not sophisticated. When there is dancing and chanting, a child comes in front and he dances. Unless he feels pleasure, how does he do it? This is practical. He has not been taught, but he comes. As soon as he comes, he also takes part with the elderly person, chanting and dancing. And if you give him prasadam, he will also accept. Anyone will accept. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gita it is said susukham and kartum avyayam. Kartum avyayam. Avyayam means whatever little service you render, that is permanent settlement. If you come here and dance and chant or ring the bell or anything about the aratrika, if you see, drsta--anything you do, that is your permanent credit.

Therefore, for the common man, this chance is given. This temple is meant for that purpose, that people will come see the Deity. The Deity is Krsna. Don't think otherwise. Krsna has agreed to be dressed by you. If you think of Krsna, about His virad-rupa, you will fail to bring dress for that virad-rupa. His head is on the sky; another leg is on the Patala. That is also true. But you cannot conceive of Krsna in His virad-rupa and at the same time dress Him and give Him something to eat. That is not possible. Therefore Krsna has become so merciful. Here, of course, the Deity is very big. Not very big. In Hyderabad we have got three times bigger Deity, like... But you can have a small Deity. Many Vaisnava, they carry Deity with them, a small Deity in a small box, and they worship. So Krsna... Anor aniyan mahato mahiyan. He can become bigger than the biggest and the smaller than the smallest. That is Krsna.

[sleeping jiva]

So real thing is bhakti, bhaktya. Therefore it is said, bhaktya puman jata-viraga aindriyat. And the more you serve Krsna, serve Krsna... You give Krsna to eat; you give Krsna to be dressed nicely. Then you will forget dressing of yourself. Now see these devotees. They are dressing Krsna so nicely, they are satisfied with that dressing of Krsna. They are not very much busy for dressing themselves. This is bhakti-yoga, viraga. Everyone is very busy how to dress himself very nicely so that he may be attractive, but if you try to dress Krsna nicely, then you will forget yourself how to dress nicely. Is it not practical? Anyone will agree. These Vaisnavas, these boys, they are young boys. The girls, they are... They don't care for their dress because they are dressing Krsna. This is the way. You dress Krsna nicely. You give Krsna nice foodstuff. Then you will forget, "Oh, I will have to satisfy my tongue in this way and that way, by chop, by cutlet, by going to restaurant." You will forget. Therefore it is called bhaktya puman jata-viraga aindriyat. The materialistic persons, they are simply busy for satisfying the senses. Go to the hotel; satisfy the tongue. Go to the cinema; hear the cinema song, see nice girls, and so on, so on. But these devotees, they are not interested at all. The cinema is here, a few steps away, but you will never see a student or a disciple of Krsna consciousness will go to that nonsense place. Practical you can see. Why it has become possible? Bhaktya puman jata-viraga aindriyat. It is practical. The more you engage yourself in devotional service, the more you will forget your sense gratification process. And as soon as you become completely detestful for sense gratification, then you are liberated person, fit for going back to home, back to Godhead. This is the process.

So the bhakti gives you chance to see Krsna, as you can see now. On this seeing or any other kind of seeing, they are the same thing. There is no difference. When Arjuna was seeing Krsna face to face--Krsna was teaching Bhagavad-gita--that seeing of Krsna and when you read Bhagavad-gita, it is the same thing. There is no difference. Somebody, they say that "Arjuna was fortunate enough to see Krsna face to face and take instruction." That is not correct. Krsna, He can be seen immediately, provided you have got eyes to see. Therefore it is said, premanjana-cchurita... Prema and bhakti, the same thing. Premanjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santah sadaiva hrdayesu vilokayanti. I will recite one story in this connection, that one brahmana in South India, in Ranganatha temple, he was reading Bhagavad-gita. And he was illiterate. He did not know neither Sanskrit nor any letter, illiterate. So the people, neighborhood, they knew that "This man is illiterate, and he is reading Bhagavad-gita." He is opening the Bhagavad-gita, "Uh, uh," like that he was. So somebody was joking, "Well, brahmana, how you are reading Bhagavad-gita?" He could understand that "This man is joking because I am illiterate." So in this way, Caitanya Mahaprabhu also happened to be that day in the Ranganatha temple, and He could understand that "Here is a devotee." So He approached him and He asked, "My dear brahmana, what you are reading?" So he could also understand that "This man is not joking." So he said, "Sir, I am reading Bhagavad-gita. I am trying to read Bhagavad-gita, but I am illiterate. So my Guru Maharaja said that 'You must read eighteen chapters daily.' So I have no knowledge. I cannot read. Still, Guru Maharaja said, so I am just trying to carry out his order and opening the pages, and that's all. I do not know how to read it." Caitanya Mahaprabhu said that "You are crying sometimes, I see." Then, "Yes, I am crying." "How you are crying if you cannot read?" "No, because when I take this Bhagavad-gita book, I see one picture, that Krsna is so kind that He has taken the chariot driver, sarathi, of Arjuna. He is His devotee. So Sri Krsna is so kind that He can accept the position of a servant because Arjuna was ordering, 'Keep my chariot here,' and Krsna was serving him. So Krsna is so kind. So when I see this picture within my mind, I am crying." So Caitanya Mahaprabhu immediately embraced him, that "You are reading Bhagavad-gita. Without any education, you are reading Bhagavad-gita." He embraced him.

So this is... How he was seeing the picture? Because he was a lover of Krsna, it doesn't matter, he could read these slokas or not. But he was absorbed in love of Krsna and he was seeing, Krsna was sitting there, and He was driving the chariot of Arjuna. This is required, not that education. Bhaktya mam abhijanati. Krsna said, "Not by passing M.A., Ph.D." Bhaktya: "Simply by bhakti." Bhaktya mam abhijanati yavan yas casmi tattvatah. And bhaktya, the practical example, if you become pure bhakta, then you will forget all this material sense enjoyment. Bhaktih paresanubhavo viraktir anyatra syat. This is the test of bhakti. But if you have got taste for material enjoyment and at the same time you advertise yourself that you have become a bhakta, that is not bhakta. One who knows who is a bhakta, immediately detect that "Here is not a bhakta." Ei dharma dadi.(?) He has got the tilaka and kanthi simply for advertisement. He is not a bhakta, because he has got material taste.

So the bhakti means bhaktya puman jata-viraga aindriyat. From indriya, this word has come, aindriya, "pertaining to indriya." Everyone in this material world is engaged in sense gratification. That is the only... The cats, dogs and so-called civilized man is simply nunam pramattah kurute vikarma, doing all kinds of sinful activities. Why? Yad indriya-pritaya aprnoti, simply for sense gratification. Simply for sense grat... This is material world. And spiritual world means there is no question of sense gratification. Simply they want to satisfy Krsna. That is spiritual world. Just like Vrndavana. What is the picture of Vrndavana? Vrndavana means there mother Yasoda, Nanda Maharaja, the Radharani, the gopis, the cowherds boys, Sridama, Sudama, the land, the water, the trees, the birds--everyone is trying to satisfy Krsna. That is Vrndavana. Vrndavana means nothing. When Krsna left Vrndavana for Mathura, all of them become dead. That is Vrndavana. Similarly, you can live always in Vrndavana, always in Vaikuntha, if you are mad after Krsna. That was the teachings of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. By His practical example, He showed. When He was in Jagannatha Puri, He was mad always, day and night. Last twelve years of His life was passed in madness. Sometimes He was falling down on the sea, sometimes somewhere, sometime, day and night, just like mad. ^

So of course, that is not possible. But that is sunyayitam jagat sarvam. When you will find everything vacant, govinda-virahena me, without Govinda, that is the highest state of devotional service. But that is possible. That is possible, that bhaktya puman jata-viraga aindriyad drsta-srutan mad-racananucintaya. If you become a bhaktya, you will find... Anything, creation, you will find Krsna's intelligence. If you take one flower and see the constitution, how this flower is made, how the color is displayed, how it has come into existence, if we are intelligent, we can see Krsna's racananucintaya, how Krsna has created intelligently. That is premanjana-cchuri... Actually, it is created by Krsna. Parasya saktir vividhaiva sruyate. Don't think like rascal, "It has come out automatically." Does thing come outs automatically? Why not your luci, puri, and everything comes automatically? Why you have to take so much trouble? No automatically. It has Krsna's hand, but you cannot see. You cannot see. But those who are learned, they can see. Parasya saktir vividhaiva sruyate svabhaviki jnana. This is the Vedic instruction. Everything, in every creation, there is hand of the Supreme Lord. Isavasyam idam sarvam. But one who has got eyes to see, he can see Krsna, anucintaya, by thinking, by thoughtful, not like rascal, "It has come automatically." Why? Nothing comes automatically. How it comes automatically? That is rascaldom. It has come through the intelligence of Krsna. But His power is so fine and so accurate that svabhaviki jnana-bala-kriya ca. If you paint one picture of flower, you will have to arrange for so many things. Still, it will not be perfect. And this flower has come so perfectly. Does it mean there was no brain behind it? You nonsense. There is brain. And Krsna says that mayadhyaksena prakrtih suyate sa-caracaram: "Don't think prakrti, nature, is working automatically, no. Under My direction." So one has to eye, one has to develop that eye. Premanjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena. Then one can see how things are going on. That is required, bhaktya. Bhaktya puman jata-viraga aindriyat. This will be possible. ^

So as you engage your indriyas, senses, in the service of Krsna, so it is very easy, that first of all you engage your tongue. Chant Hare Krsna and eat bhagavat-prasada! You will become perfect. Nothing, no other things required. That we are doing. We are distributing prasada and engaging people, "Chant Hare Krsna." This is Krsna consciousness.

Thank you very much. (end)

[741126SB.BOM] Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.25.26 Bombay, November 26, 1974 His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

listen to Prabhupada's lecture here:
http://www.krishna.org/RealAudio/74/74_102_A.ram

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

This was posted on a community and shared with me...its a very lovely article about the history of the Hare Krishna Movement...so I thought I'd share http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif

Who are the Hare Krishnas?

"Wanna buy a flower?"

That's a phrase many of us are familiar with. Collectively we imagine some thin, bald white guy in saffron robes standing at the airport as he asks that very question. We know these people as the "Hare Krishnas". We have seen them in the airports and on the street corners dancing with tambourines and bells. We have seen them selling flowers, books, and even in some cases, baseball caps. If you listen to a Christian preacher speaking about cults invariably he will mention the Hare Krishnas. Yet, your average American can't tell you what these people believe. Are they really some 60s cult? Why the singing and dancing? Why don't they get a real job? Who are these people?

The Movement Comes to the West

If you ask these questions to the average American you will get many different answers. Most believe the Hare Krishnas originated in the 1960s as a product of the hippy movement. In truth the Hare Krishna movement was brought to the West in the 60s. A sixty-nine year old Indian swami (a teacher who has brought his senses under his control) by the name of A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada (picture here (http://www.iskcon.com/images/sp1.jpg)), or Srila Prabhupada for short, travelled to America in order to fulfill the orders he received from his own spiritual master some forty three years before.

His orders were to bring what he termed the "Krishna consciousness movement" to the West. So, with 40 rupees (slightly over $7 US), a box of dry cereal, one suitcase, and 5 cases that contained 200 copies of Srimad Bhagavatam first canto in three parts, Srila Prabhupada arrived on the cargo ship the Jaladuta at Boston's Commonwealth Pier on September 17th, 1965. During the 35 day journey on this steamship, Prabhupada had suffered not one but two heart attacks only to arrive at Boston Harbor with no contacts or supporters and what he later described as "hardly a day's spending money".

Sri Caitanya introduces the Maha Mantra

Srila Prabhupada was a guru, a spiritual master, who was the thirty-third guru in a disciplic succession that goes all the way back to the original form of God, Krishna, who visited India some 5,000 years ago. More recently in the lineage, Srila Prabhupada is the eleventh guru in disciplic succession from an incarnation of God known as Sri Caitanya who appeared in Mayapur, a quarter of the city of Navadvipa, India in the year 1486. Sri Caitanya swept aside the suffocating restrictions of the caste system and taught that love of God was possible for all people, no matter their caste or station in life. He taught that by the chanting of the holy names of God any person could develop love of God and eventually return back to the spiritual world. In his words,"harer nama harer nama harer namaiva kevalam kalau nasty eva nasty eva nasty eva gatir anyatha" which translates as "In this age of quarrel and hypocrisy, the only means of deliverance is the chanting of the holy name of the Lord. There is no other way. There is no other way. There is no other way."

To facilitate the chanting of the names of God, Sri Caitanya delivered a mantra to the people that is called the "Maha Mantra" which means "great chant". The Maha Mantra is composed of several holy names of God and is as follows: "Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare. Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare." It was the chanting of this mantra in the West that quickly caused Srila Prabhupada and his followers to be nicknamed "the Hare Krishnas".

The Gaudiya Vaisnava Movement is Born

As Sri Caitanya's movement caught on in Navadvipa, the local Muslim ruler by the name of Chand Kazi began to believe that the Krishna consciousness movement threatened the established order and therefore the peace of Navadvipa. He ordered his constables to raid the home of one of Caitanya's followers where they smashed the drums used during the chanting of the Maha Mantra. Then he outlawed the chanting and threatened to severely punish any that were found to disobey within the city. Upon hearing this, Sri Caitanya ordered the largest nonviolent act of civil disobedience that had ever been staged in India up to this time. At a prearranged date and time Sri Caitanya, along with one hundred thousand followers, flooded the streets of Navadvipa bringing the city to a screeching halt. As they danced through the city the sounds of the Maha Mantra reached a deafening roar.

This impromptu parade finally converged upon the palace of the Kazi who hid inside out of fear. At the request of Sri Caitanya, the Kazi appeared in order to carry out negotiations. Presenting a calm and logical argument, Sri Caitanya not only convinced the Kazi of their benevolence but eventually even made a convert of him. To this day the followers of Sri Caitanya visit the tomb of the Kazi and pay their respects. Even during Hindu-Muslim riots the chanting of the holy names was allowed within the city limits of Navadvipa. The branch of Hinduism that the followers of Vishnu (Krishna) belong to is called Vaisnavism. So, since the city of Navadvipa is in the Gauda region of India, his followers became known as Gaudiya Vaisnavas. Gaudiya Vaisnavism is the correct term for the "Hare Krishna movement".

Why Srila Prabhupada Brought the Movement to the West

The holy scriptures that Vaisnavas follow were written down 5,000 years ago after the advent of Krishna. These scriptures are called the vedas and instead of promoting a religion they promote a culture, a way of life commonly referred to as vedic culture or Krishna consciousness. It is this culture that Srila Prabhupada travelled across the ocean to bring to the West. He often lamented that in the West men are taught from vast storehouses of knowledge dealing with technology and science, but no one was teaching how to love God.

The hippy movement was evidence that even though the United States was the richest country in the world materially, it was spiritually bankrupt. People were taught they should love God but never given any clear instructions on how to develop that love of God. Therefore he brought the Krishna consciousness movement to a civilization yearning for spiritual knowledge and direction. Since the Krishna consciousness movement was not a religion but the science leading to love of God, Srila Prabhupada felt confident that he could teach the Westerners to love God, whether they called God by Allah, Jehovah, or any other of his many names.

In vedic society there are four "divisions of work" as set out by Lord Krishna: the brahmanas (priests), the ksatriyas (warriors/administrators), the vaisyas (farmers and merchants), and the sudras (workers). Srila Prabhupada was intent on not only distributing the knowledge of Krishna consciousness to the masses, but upon injecting the class of brahmana into western society. If the priesthood was alive and operating within western society then by their actions and dissemination of knowledge they could help lay the groundwork to introduce the other classes into western society as well.

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

Brahminical Culture is Introduced

Srila Prabhupada soon started an organization he named the International Society of Krishna Consciousness (ISKCON (http://www.iskcon.com/)) and went about establishing temples throughout the West to act as preaching centers for the dissemination of knowledge and spiritual insight. The brahmanas would live in these temples and rely on Krishna for their sustenance. If someone hears the holy names of God or gives in charity to the brahmanas to further Krishna consciousness they are rewarded spiritually and can progress in their journey back to God. So the priests would go out daily preaching, chanting the Holy names, distributing literature and accepting donations for the good of all.

Soon you saw these priests in airports and on street corners practically everywhere. They wore the traditional clothing and hairstyle as described in vedic literature. The color of the robe they wore was saffron indicating their celibacy and renunciation or, if the person was married or seeking marriage, white. They would shave their heads but leave a ponytail in back called a sikha. This was not only for cleanliness but indicated the person's submission to guru and the vedas. The hair is the crown of the head and by shaving it in such a way it showed that the person was more interested in cultivating spiritual life than fulfilling the desires of the flesh. (This hairstyle was even seen in early christianity which a sculpture (http://www.vnn.org/world/WD9903/sikha2.gif) in the Cathedral of Notre Dame from c. 1300 makes evident). Like Sri Caitanya and his associates 500 years before, these priests would dance and sing the Maha Mantra. The class of worker known as the brahmana had officially arrived in the West.

The Disappearance Day of Prabhupada and His Movement Now

After preaching in the West for eleven years, Srila Prabhupada passed away on November 14, 1977 at the age of 80. Devotees of Krishna say that was his "disappearance day" and do not say he died because, in actuality, since the soul is eternal, no one ever dies. By the date of his disappearance, Srila Prabhupada had translated and written commentary to the 18,000 verses of the Srimad Bhagavatam (http://www.srimadbhagavatam.com/), the 700 verses of the Bhagavad Gita (http://www.asitis.com/) and the 11,555 verses of the Caitanya Caritamrta. He had created a monthly magazine, Back to Godhead (http://www.krishna.com/newsite/main.php?id=306), which at one point had a monthly distribution of over 1 million copies. He had initiated over 5,000 devotees, written over 7,000 letters to those disciples, established 108 temples across the world, travelled around the world 12 times and published 147 books (http://www.krishna.com/newsite/main.php?id=33), among many other things.

An article in the New York Times from 1998 estimates there are one million ISKCON devotees around the world. The major religion in Fiji is the Hare Krishna movement. Food for Life (http://www.ffl.org/), which is the ISKCON food relief program, exists in over 60 countries and serves over 70,000 free meals daily. It is the largest vegetarian food relief program in the world. These days, brahmanas are in the minority in the Krishna consciousness movement. Your average Hare Krishna looks just like anyone else. As a matter of fact, you could even count the great grandson of Henry Ford among their ranks. One thing is for certain: these are the Hare Krishnas...and they're here to stay.
(About the Author: The author is the webmaster of his local ISKCON temple website (http://www.iskcon-nola.org/) and is aspiring to one day take initiation from the guru His Holiness Bir Krishna Maharaj (http://www.bkgoswami.com/)).

[ChiefCowpie]

Soon you saw these priests in airports and on street corners practically everywhere. They wore the traditional clothing and hairstyle as described in vedic literature. The color of the robe they wore was saffron indicating their celibacy and renunciation or, if the person was married or seeking marriage, white.for the record, maybe in the beginning the devotees wore their traditional garb but by the 1973, male devotees were wearing wigs and going in western garb at the airports and wherever they went so they were not recognizable as being devotees by appearance...and too, sold books without the buyer realizing what they bought...women as well wore western garb and so too were not recognizable as devotees... and too, while they did hand out flowers to raise money, if one failed to give a donation, the flower was asked to be returned...such fund raising practices drew much criticism both within and outiside of Iskcon...today, such practices are no longer used

[ChiefCowpie]

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Bhakti Caru Swami and Book Distribution

"If there is any finger pointing to be done it should be toward those who created all the horrible scandals. To blame Swami Tripurari and other sincere book distributors for the bad reputation of ISKCON is simply ludicrous."

January, 15, 2001
From Bhakti Caru Swami's Email conference, Istagosthi.

"Srila Prabhupada was once told about Tripurari Swami selling a book to a lady by telling her that the book was about the power shortage in California?" Guru Maharaja (Bhakti Caru Swami) said, "I don't know in what context Srila Prabhuada was told that. These are misconceptions that caused so much damage to our society. In my opinion Tripurari caused the most damage to ISKCON. He destroyed book distribution. He introduced lying, changing up, cheating...and if he is so dear to Srila Prabhupada and loves Srila Prabhupada so much, then why did he leave him? Why did he leave ISKCON? These are not personalities to follow. I know that Srila Prabhupada was a very honest and noble man."

----------------------

Response from Brahma das,
January 20, 2001

Dear Bhakti Caru Swami,

Regarding the comments above posted on your Email Conference about Sripad Swami B.V. Tripurari and book distribution. These comments reflect society consciousness at its worst. If Swami Tripurari were a Guru in ISKCON you would not have singled him out. Being outside ISKCON makes him a convenient scapegoat. How book distribution affected the popular appeal of ISKCON began long before anyone named Tripurari was generally known. I joined the movement in 1972. I walked in the temple with sleeping bag in hand at 9am and by 11am I was in the street selling BTGs, long hair and all.

Even then people did not want to be bothered and they mostly just tried to avoid us. We chanted and that sometimes drew a crowd but people never lined up to buy books with money in hand like they did in India. Prabhupada set up the movement around book distribution. We were forced to sell books to support the temples. Every day on book distribution we faced a hostile crowd. If we met a few favorable people it made our day. And this was back in 1972. On top of the local pressure to sell books, Prabhupada wanted money for the India projects and funded them through the BBT. Prabhupada knew we needed some grandeur to be widely appreciated in India and he meant to accomplish this by impressive projects.

At the same time his hardback books were piling up in the warehouses. When Tripurari das brahmacari along with others developed the techniques to sell them Prabhupada was ecstatic. He named Tripurari Maharaja "the incarnation of book distribution" and ordered him to train us all to sell his books. You allude that Prabhupad did not know what was going on in the airports and how his books were being sold. This is not a fact. Swami Tripurari was in constant contact with Prabhupad and explained to him in detail the activities at the airport. Apart from that a number of leaders complained to Prabhupada about the techniques the distributors used and that the public was being alienated by book distribution. Prabhupad dismissed all their objections and strongly brought any dissidents into line.

And you should note he never chastised Tripurari Maharaja in any way about his techniques what to speak of the things you say about him. As a matter of fact Prabhupada often talked and laughed about how the books were being sold and even mentioned the energy crises incident above. Tripurari Maharaja taught the devotees how to present that the solution for every material problem from anxiety to world crises was solved in Prabhupada's books. This did not require lying because it is a fact. Eventually all leaders enlisted Maharaja to train the book distributors in their temple or zone. And in spite of complaints from the public and still from some devotees, Prabhupada pushed us even more. Around 1976 he wrote, "Practically I am whipping them to sell books."

Personally, I was also concerned about public perception so in a Vrndavana darshan I said to Prabhupad, "I think the people don't like that we are bothering them to buy our books and asking them for money." Prabhupad replied something like, "Yes, we are giving them a book about Krishna, taking their money and using it to build this beautiful temple.Then we are inviting them all to come and enjoy it. But instead they want to keep their money, build themselves a palace, and put a fence around it and then post a sign that says 'nobody can come in.' So who is in the superior position?"

From this it was clear to me that Prabhupada knew we were alienating people but he was willing to accept this in order to get the books out, support the temples and build the India projects. And it was evident that he trusted Tripurari Maharaja enough to personally give him sannyas over the objections of the GBC who wanted him to follow the mandatory two year wait called for in their resolutions.

Looking at all this in hindsight, I agree there were excesses and we could have done things better. But even if Miss Manners herself had personally trained us in book distribution etiquette, people would still have complained and fewer books would have been sold. No one likes being continuously bothered for money and that is what we did. At the time of Prabhupada's departure the Western public generally saw us as little more than a bunch of pushy, begging religious zealots. It was after Prabhupada was gone, when the great guru scandals hit the press that public perception changed from considering us simply pushy zealots to seeing the Hare Krishnas as a religious Mafia.

And now just when those old scandals were beginning to be forgotten the worst scandal of all has erupted about the schools. If there is any finger pointing to be done it should be toward those who created all these horrible scandals. To blame Swami Tripurari and other sincere book distributors for the bad reputation of ISKCON is simply ludicrous. We should consider what ISKCON would have been like with no book distribution. ISKCON would have consisted of neophyte devotees performing sankirtana and chanting japa while living in whatever small centers they could afford by selling incense and a few books to stores. Although there is nothing wrong with this picture spiritually, it was simply not Prabhupada's idea of dynamic preaching.

[ChiefCowpie]

The grand projects that established ISKCON in India, the farms and beautiful temples in the West, as well as the prestigious international BBT with its various departments would not exist, as we know them today. Seeing things from this view I am confident that Prabhupada knew what he wanted and did what he had to do in order to see his books distributed and his great movement established. If public perception was the most important ideal to consider, than I don't believe Prabhupada would have sent us all out into the streets and airports to bother people to buy books.

I was one of those early airport distributors trained personally by Swami Tripurari. I never once regretted this service I had the privilege to perform for His Divine Grace and neither do most book distributors I know. Your sharp words against Swami Tripurari and book distribution are an insult to all that struggled under those adverse conditions to sell Prabhupada's books.

Those words should be rethought and retracted because they are untrue and reflect your incomplete knowledge of Prabhupada's feelings on the subject. Maharaja, I remember you as a very nice person with a good heart. You should also consider how those words affect the feelings of all those devotees who gave so much of themselves to fulfilling Prabhupada's desire.

It is now almost thirty years after we first began the great push to sell Bhagavad-gitas and Srimad Bhagavatams in the airports and malls of America. It was not an easy task but we did it and still most of us consider those book distribution days the best days of our lives.

Respectfully,
Brahma Das

======================

The name of the conference is: BCS Istagosthi

From: Bhakti Caru Swami
Date: 25-Jan-01
To: BCS Istagosthi

Dear readers,

Please accept my best wishes. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

I just got to know that the above statement (pertaining to Swami Tripurari) was printed in one of the writings by my secretary, Candrasekhar Acarya dasa. I feel extremely embarrassed that such a statement was broadcast in public. I am also extremely embarrassed that I made a statement like this. A godbrother of mine, Brahma Prabhu, wrote the above letter after reading what I said.

I am very thankful to him for correcting me. I also want to request you all not to harbor any negative opinion about Tripurari Maharaja due to my statement about him. As a matter of fact, I am in no position to say such a thing about him. During the early days of ISKCON, he was a great hero of our sankirtan movement. He was one of the pioneers of book distribution and he achieved a lot for Srila Prabhupada. From Brahma Prabhu's letter it will become obvious.

It is a pity that I forgot about all the wonderful things that Tripurari Maharaj achieved for Srila Prabhupada and made such a derogatory statement about him. I feel extremely embarrassed about my mentality and dealings.

I beg forgiveness from all the Vaisnavas whom I have offended by saying such a statement.

Bhakti Charu Swami

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January 25, 2001.

Dear Prabhus and Maharajas,

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. All glories to Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

With straw in my mouth, I prostrate myself at the lotus feet ofHis Holiness Tripurari Maharaja and all the Vaisnavas who feel offended about my reckless and most stupid statement in the BCS istagosthi.

I recieved the greatest chastisement from my spiritual master after he found out that I had posted this statement (which he regrets deeply, as evident in his own letter of apology posted on the conference yesterday.). I have already been punished by his words, and I pray to you all not to hold a grudge against me, because without the forgiveness and good wishes of the Vaisnavas, how can I go on in spiritual life?

Again, I offer my respectful obeisances to you, your Holiness Tripurari Maharaja, as well as to all the Vaisnavas who felt offended by this statement.

I remain,

Yours in the service of Nityananda Prabhu (the forgiver of the foolish), Candrasekhar Acarya dasa,
(BCS Istagosthi Conference Secretary)

[sleeping jiva]

Who is eligible to execute devotional service, bhakti? Those who are engaged in devotional service, they are not in the material platform. We should understand that. Yato bhaktir adhoksaje ahaituky apratihata. And bhakti is not a business. Anywhere we go, there is business. "If you give me this, then I shall love you. If you satisfy my senses, then I shall love you." Similarly, the other party, he or she also says, "If you satisfy my senses, then I love you. If there is no sense gratification, then I don't love you." That is business. Therefore adhoksaje, with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, there should not be any business. Ahaituki. That is called ahaituki, no cause. "Because God shall give me my bread..." As in the Christian church they go and say, "O God, give us our daily bread." That is also good because he has gone to God. The atheists, they do not like to speak of God, what to speak of praying from God. That is atheist class.

Srila Prabhupada

read and listen to the whole lecture here:
http://www.prabhupadavani.org/Bhagavatam/text/011.html

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

I just wrote something when I got home from practice...and I wanted to share it...so its at your discression to read it:

http://www.livejournal.com/users/svggrdnbeauty/91360.html

Also...if you go back to my main page there's another thing that I wrote...I just figured I'd share and stuff :)

Haribol!

[sleeping jiva]

that's it. there are no limits for bhakti. :):)

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

lol. You had no idea how bad I wanted to tell someone that I figured that out...lol. Like I need 'em to think I'm any weirder than usual...lol.

[sleeping jiva]

forget the people.

[sleeping jiva]

Suppose in Krsna consciousness movement, what we are doing? We are giving Krsna prasadam. We are distributing everyone, without any distinction. We don't make any distinction between daridra-narayana and a rich narayana. We give prasadam to every narayana. Of course, we do not think that everyone is Narayana. That is not our philosophy. Narayana is above. Narayanah avyaktat parah. "Narayana is not of this material world." Narayanah paro 'vyaktat. That is the version of Sankaracarya. So it is a wrong philosophy that because Narayana is everyone's heart.... Isvarah sarva-bhutanam hrd-dese 'rjuna tisthati [Bg. 18.61]. Narayana, or isvara, is situated in everyone's heart. That does not mean that everyone has become Narayana. This is a wrong philosophy. If you make such distinction, then why there should be daridra-narayana? There should be rich narayana. There should be chaga-narayana, matsya-narayana, every narayana. If you have got such vision that "Because Narayana is there in everyone's heart, then everyone should be addressed as Narayana..." But that should not be. That is not be. That should not be. That is insult.
If some big man, if I say, equalize him with some insignificant person, that is insult. In the sastra it is said,

Srila Prabhupada

read the whole lecture:
http://www.prabhupadavani.org/web/text/148.html

[BlackBillBlake]

This is one of my favourite stories of Krishna's childhood lila. Taken from 'Krsna - The Supreme Personality of Godhead'


Early in the morning, the gopis used to go to the bank of the Yamuna to take bath. They would assemble together, capturing each other's hands, and loudly sing of the wonderful pastimes of Krsna. It is an old system among Indian girls and women that when they take bath in the river they place their garments on the bank and dip into the water completely naked. The portion of the river where the girls and women take bath was strictly prohibited to any male member, and this is still the system. The Supreme Personality of Godhead, knowing the minds of the unmarried young gopis, benedicted them with their desired objective. They had prayed for Krsna to become their husband, and Krsna wanted to fulfill their desires.

At the end of the month, Krsna, along with His friends, appeared on the scene. Another name of Krsna is Yogesvara, or master of all mystic powers. By practicing meditation, the yogi can study the psychic movement of other men, and certainly Krsna could understand the desire of the gopis. Appearing on the scene, Krsna immediately collected all the garments of the gopis, climbed up in a nearby tree, and with smiling face began to speak to them.

"My dear girls," He said. "Please come here one after another and pray for your garments and then take them away. I'm not joking with you. I'm just telling the truth. I have no desire to play any joke with you, for you have observed the regulative principles for one month by worshiping goddess Katyayani. Please do not come here all at once. Come alone; I want to see each of you in your complete beauty, for you all have thin waists. I have requested you to come alone. Now please comply."

When the girls in the water heard such joking words from Krsna, they began to look at one another and smile. They were very joyous to hear such a request from Krsna because they were already in love with Him. Out of shyness, they looked at one another, but they could not come out of the water because they were naked. Due to remaining in the water for a long time, they felt cold and were shivering, yet upon hearing the pleasing and joking words of Govinda, their minds were perturbed with great joy. They began to tell Krsna, "Dear son of Nanda Maharaja, please do not joke with us in that way. It is completely unjust to us. You are a very respectable boy because You are the son of Nanda Maharaja, and You are very dear to us, but You should not play this joke on us because now we are all shivering from the cold water. Kindly deliver our garments immediately, otherwise we shall suffer." They then began to appeal to Krsna with great submission. "Dear Syamasundara," they said, "we are all Your eternal servitors. Whatever You order us to do, we are obliged to perform without hesitation because we consider it our religious duty. But if You insist on putting this proposal to us, which is impossible to perform, then certainly we will have to go to Nanda Maharaja and lodge a complaint against You. If Nanda Maharaja does not take action, then we shall tell King Kamsa about Your misbehavior."

Upon hearing this appeal by the unmarried gopis, Krsna answered, "My dear girls, if you think that you are My eternal servitors and you are always ready to execute My order, then My request is that, with your smiling faces, you please come here alone, one after another, and take away your garments. If you do not come here, however, and if you lodge complaints to My father, I shall not care anyway, for I know My father is old and cannot take any action against Me."

When the gopis saw that Krsna was strong and determined, they had no alternative but to abide by His order. One after another they came out of the water, but because they were completely naked, they tried to cover their nakedness by placing their left hand over their pubic area. In that posture they were all shivering. Their simple presentation was so pure that Lord Krsna immediately became pleased with them. All the unmarried gopis who prayed to Katyayani to have Krsna as their husband were thus satisfied. A woman cannot be naked before any male except her husband. The unmarried gopis desired Krsna as their husband, and He fulfilled their desire in this way. Being pleased with them, He took their garments on His shoulder and began to speak as follows. "My dear girls, you have committed a great offense by going naked in the river Yamuna. Because of this, the predominating deity of the Yamuna, Varunadeva, has become displeased with you. Please, therefore, just touch your foreheads with folded palms and bow down before the demigod Varuna in order to be excused from this offensive act." The gopis were all simple souls, and whatever Krsna said they took to be true. In order to be freed from the wrath of Varunadeva, as well as to fulfill the desired end of their vows and ultimately to please their worshipable Lord, Krsna, they immediately abided by His order. Thus they became the greatest lovers of Krsna, and His most obedient servitors.

[BlackBillBlake]

continued.............................



Nothing can compare to the Krsna consciousness of the gopis. Actually, the gopis did not care for Varuna or any other demigod; they only wanted to satisfy Krsna. Krsna became very ingratiated and satisfied by the simple dealings of the gopis, and He immediately delivered their respective garments, one after another. Although Krsna cheated the young unmarried gopis and made them stand naked before Him and enjoyed joking words with them, and although He treated them just like dolls and stole their garments, they were still pleased with Him and never lodged complaints against Him. This attitude of the gopis is described by Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu when He prays, "My dear Lord Krsna, You may embrace Me or trample Me under Your feet, or You may make Me brokenhearted by never being present before Me. Whatever You like, You can do, because You have complete freedom to act. But in spite of all Your dealings, You are My Lord eternally, and I have no other worshipable object." This is the attitude of the gopis toward Krsna.

Lord Krsna was pleased with them, and since they all desired to have Him as their husband, He told them, "My dear well-behaved girls, I know of your desire for Me and why you worshiped goddess Katyayani, and I completely approve of your action. Anyone whose full consciousness is always absorbed in Me, even if in lust, is elevated. As a fried seed cannot fructify, so any desire in connection with My loving service cannot produce any fruitive result, as in ordinary karma."

There is a statement in the Brahma-samhita: karmani nirdahati kintu ca bhakti-bhajam. Everyone is bound by his fruitive activities, but the devotees, because they work completely for the satisfaction of the Lord, suffer no reactions. Similarly, the gopis' attitude toward Krsna, although seemingly lusty, should not be considered to be like the lusty desires of ordinary women. The reason is explained by Krsna Himself. Activities in devotional service to Krsna are transcendental to any fruitive result.

"My dear gopis," Krsna continued, "your desire to have Me as your husband will be fulfilled because with this desire you have worshiped goddess Katyayani. I promise you that during the next autumn season you shall be able to meet with Me, and you shall enjoy Me as your husband."

Taking shelter of the shade of the trees, Krsna became very happy. While walking He began to address the inhabitants of Vrndavana. "My dear Stoka Krsna, My dear Varuthapa, My dear Bhadrasena, My dear Sudama, My dear Subala, My dear Arjuna, My dear Visala, My dear Rsabha--just look at these most fortunate trees of Vrndavana. They have dedicated their lives to the welfare of others. Individually they are tolerating all kinds of natural disturbances, such as hurricanes, torrents of rain, scorching heat and piercing cold, but they are very careful to relieve our fatigues and give us shelter. My dear friends, I think they are glorified in this birth as trees. They are so careful to give shelter to others that they are like noble, highly elevated charitable men who never deny charity to one who approaches them. No one is denied shelter by these trees. They supply various kinds of facilities to human society, such as leaves, flowers, fruit, shade, roots, bark, flavor extracts and fuel. They are the perfect example of noble life. They are like a noble person who has sacrificed everything possible--his body, mind, activities, intelligence and words--in engaging in the welfare of all living entities."

Thus the Supreme Personality of Godhead walked on the bank of the Yamuna, touching the leaves of the trees and their fruits, flowers and twigs, and praising their glorious welfare activities. Different people may accept certain welfare activities to be beneficial for human society, according to their own views, but the welfare activity that can be rendered to people in general, for eternal benefit, is the spreading of the Krsna consciousness movement. Everyone should be prepared to propagate this movement. As instructed by Lord Caitanya, one should be humbler than the grass on the ground and more tolerant than the tree. The tolerance of the trees is explained by Lord Krsna Himself, and those who are engaged in the preaching of Krsna consciousness should learn lessons from the teachings of Lord Krsna and Lord Caitanya through Their direct disciplic succession.

While passing through the forest of Vrndavana on the bank of the Yamuna, Krsna sat down at a beautiful spot and allowed the cows to drink the cold and transparent water of the Yamuna. Being fatigued, the cowherd boys, Krsna and Balarama also drank. After seeing the young gopis taking bath in the Yamuna, Krsna passed the rest of the morning with the boys.

Thus ends the Bhaktivedanta purport of the Twenty-second Chapter of Krsna, "Stealing the Garments of the Unmarried Gopi Girls."

[sleeping jiva]

cool! thanks :)

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

:) I like what I have read of that book a lot so far. That's a cute story... Thank you for sharing it...one day I'm going to get that book...I have it online...but I like books better, you can take 'em with you whereever you go :)

[sleeping jiva]

So this problem, attachment for this material world, gradually we have to cut it. That is the Vedic civilization. If you want to go back to home, back to Godhead, then at the same time, if you remain attached to this material world, so-called society, friendship and love, then it is not possible. So l