There is God.

[Burn]

But, you would be mistaken to call God a Him, Her, It, She.

Perhaps, we, though.

Forget the Christian view as God on a throne in the sky, with Jesus "at the right hand of his father".

Forget every concept you know about God.

Walk outside, watch that sunrise, those clouds, that person pass by...
Those animals run through the trees. Anything.

All this movement, all this energy, working as a whole.

Perhaps this will hint an even greater God,
Inseperable from what we distinguish with our minds as the real, physical world.

[deadhead716]

Ah. Toltec wisdom. Is a great thing. God is everywhere. God is everything. There's a great book about toltec wisdom and personal freedom that talks about that called "The Four Agreements." It's not high reading level, but it's still very inspirational.

[hailtothekingbaby]

Toltec? Sounds Meso-American.

This sounds far more logical than any organised religion yet. More harmless and liberal too: no submission to anything that might not even exist. But I don't know. I guess anything supernatural or even subnatural, pseudonatural, pentanatural or diginatural is lost on me. It simply never triggers the reaction of "hey, that may be true". But out of all religions or quasi-religions, this Toltec thing and Discordianism would be my first choice if I really had to pick something.

[Soulless||Chaos]

Hehe discordianism is the best! Hail Eris! :rolleyes:

[Burn]

In more scientific language: Matter can neither be created nor destroyed. Energy can neither be created nor destroyed. Everything is just re-arranged. If this is so, you and I live forever. Death is merely change. Life is merely change. Very physically, very scientifically. Pattern leads to pattern, leads to pattern...

[NEMISIS]

IMO
I think it's retarded to think so.

[Kharakov]

You would.

[thumontico]

But, you would be mistaken to call God a Him, Her, It, She.

Perhaps, we, though.

Forget the Christian view as God on a throne in the sky, with Jesus "at the right hand of his father".

Forget every concept you know about God.

Walk outside, watch that sunrise, those clouds, that person pass by...
Those animals run through the trees. Anything.

All this movement, all this energy, working as a whole.

Perhaps this will hint an even greater God,
Inseperable from what we distinguish with our minds as the real, physical world.
You trade one improbabilty for another. I fail to see the reason that the beauty I see, the happiness I feel should be a product of some Great Unity or Divinity or anything other than what it is. Beauty is not the product of God, it is not the product of a determinism or cooperation. It is beautiful simply because you percieve it as beautiful, but that is no reason to let that hamper its beauty. In fact it makes it that much more significant.


In more scientific language: Matter can neither be created nor destroyed. Energy can neither be created nor destroyed. Everything is just re-arranged. If this is so, you and I live forever. Death is merely change. Life is merely change. Very physically, very scientifically. Pattern leads to pattern, leads to pattern...
Okay, so take my brain. It is what is responsible for my consciousness and awareness, which is what I value about 'living'. When I die and my neurons and cells in my brain (which makes up 'me' and my consciousness) die and cease to function this matter changes and decomposes and is eaten by bacteria or other things.
How does that translate into existence of my 'consciousness'? I do not care if the matter that was once defined as my brain, no longer functioning, is decomposed and changed into to something else that does not have the functioning providing me consciousness.

So it is true to say that what was once 'me' still exists in some other form, but that does not mean I will be conscious or 'live' forever as you assert.

[Scholar_Warrior]

of course, nothing exists outside of god. nothing is what supports and creates that which exists outside of god, and inside too. no-thing is the basis, or background from which all material manifestations arise. god consists of nothing and everything.

after all you can't have one without the other. it is not the clay that makes the vase useful; it is the space within the vase that is useful.

it is possible to awaken god within the individual, the self.

in that state you are the eyes, ears, nose, taste and feel of creation. you are a finite expression of the infinite, the something that hides the nothing, and is only apparent through the emptiness surrounding the thing; and to other, finer, subtler senses - the something and the emptiness pervading the something.

reduced to it's elements, matter is not solid. it is energy, pure energy and no thing. (no-thing) the reason that we experience "reality" as solid is because of the frequency at which we vibrate. we are attuned to material existence.

but we are also receptive of vibrations outside that bandwidth.

you can tune your consciousness like a radio dial.

god is no-thing and at the very same present moment god is every-thing.

Namaste'

[Scholar_Warrior]

actually, the brain acts as a filter. it removes any stimulus it finds to be un-necessary for, or distracting from the senses necessary for physical survival and/or gratification.

eating, sleeping, fucking, fighting, etc. are the animal drives we are attuned to. pleasure and satisfaction of the five senses.

we posses more than five senses however. relax your brain and open your mind.

[thumontico]

You seem cryptic and unclear to me. You are making many assertions but you aren't relating it to anything but more assertions.

However, I do agree Bush should be impeached. Perhaps it was good that he got re-elected, now there are 4 more years for the dumbasses that voted for him to see his corruption, his lies, his mal intent, and the many more bullshit actions he will preform in the next upcoming 4 years. He only has a 4 year damage potential, but I suppose solace to see his stupidity revealed is not worth the damage he will do.

[BlackGuardXIII]

You seem cryptic and unclear to me. You are making many assertions but you aren't relating it to anything but more assertions.

However, I do agree Bush should be impeached. Perhaps it was good that he got re-elected, now there are 4 more years for the dumbasses that voted for him to see his corruption, his lies, his mal intent, and the many more bullshit actions he will preform in the next upcoming 4 years. He only has a 4 year damage potential, but I suppose solace to see his stupidity revealed is not worth the damage he will do.
cryptic and unclear is perfect when discussing Spirit. It is a personal thing, in my view, and everyone can have a different view, and all be right.

[thumontico]

Not when the goal is to ellicit understanding.

[Defence_mechanism]

But, you would be mistaken to call God a Him, Her, It, She.

Perhaps, we, though.

Forget the Christian view as God on a throne in the sky, with Jesus "at the right hand of his father".

Forget every concept you know about God.

Walk outside, watch that sunrise, those clouds, that person pass by...
Those animals run through the trees. Anything.

All this movement, all this energy, working as a whole.

Perhaps this will hint an even greater God,
Inseperable from what we distinguish with our minds as the real, physical world.
You trade one improbabilty for another. I fail to see the reason that the beauty I see, the happiness I feel should be a product of some Great Unity or Divinity or anything other than what it is. Beauty is not the product of God, it is not the product of a determinism or cooperation. It is beautiful simply because you percieve it as beautiful, but that is no reason to let that hamper its beauty. In fact it makes it that much more significant.

i dont think Burn is trying to impose a religious philosophy onto you. onto us. i dont even think religions necessarily hold that sort of philosophy. to be more accruate, i think Burn is trying to say that beauty is there. energy is there. in the water and the trees and in our minds. some people call it God, or a being, or spirituality, or just beauty. but essentially we are all looking at and appreciating the same thing. true?

[Burn]

I do not mean You and I will live forever, subjectively. Sorry for that misunderstanding.


A great quote I think sums it all up:

"We are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively. There is no such thing as death, life is but a dream in which we live in the imagination of ourselves."

I am expressing something I understand to be true. I see beauty, I feel it, and appreciate this life I am able to live and experience. I feel there is a spiritual energy in existence, and that as a whole it will never die, separate from itself in any way... and it binds us, moves us. That is what I believe and feel to be true.

I'm just sharing. Thanks to all who understand this, and take my words as you will.

[Razorofoccam]

But, you would be mistaken to call God a Him, Her, It, She.

Perhaps, we, though.

Forget the Christian view as God on a throne in the sky, with Jesus "at the right hand of his father".

Forget every concept you know about God.

Walk outside, watch that sunrise, those clouds, that person pass by...
Those animals run through the trees. Anything.

All this movement, all this energy, working as a whole.

Perhaps this will hint an even greater God,
Inseperable from what we distinguish with our minds as the real, physical world.
Burn

Well said.

Occam

[Razorofoccam]

In more scientific language: Matter can neither be created nor destroyed. Energy can neither be created nor destroyed. Everything is just re-arranged. If this is so, you and I live forever. Death is merely change. Life is merely change. Very physically, very scientifically. Pattern leads to pattern, leads to pattern...
Burn

And again.. great
pattern being what?
Structure.
All is structure.
Who determines that pattern/structure exists.?
Occam knows not.

But it seems that patterns.
those structures.
embedded in reality.
Are the reality we observe. And our abillity to do so.

Occam



Occam

[Razorofoccam]

You trade one improbabilty for another. I fail to see the reason that the beauty I see, the happiness I feel should be a product of some Great Unity or Divinity or anything other than what it is. Beauty is not the product of God, it is not the product of a determinism or cooperation. It is beautiful simply because you percieve it as beautiful, but that is no reason to let that hamper its beauty. In fact it makes it that much more significant.

Okay, so take my brain. It is what is responsible for my consciousness and awareness, which is what I value about 'living'. When I die and my neurons and cells in my brain (which makes up 'me' and my consciousness) die and cease to function this matter changes and decomposes and is eaten by bacteria or other things.
How does that translate into existence of my 'consciousness'? I do not care if the matter that was once defined as my brain, no longer functioning, is decomposed and changed into to something else that does not have the functioning providing me consciousness.

So it is true to say that what was once 'me' still exists in some other form, but that does not mean I will be conscious or 'live' forever as you assert. Thurmontico

You have made a very large assumption in this post.
Quote
"It is what is responsible for my consciousness and awareness" [the brain]

How so?
Is not your brain but a Material structure in human observed reality?
A thing...no more responsible for itself than a rock...

MIND is responsible...

Mind seems to be a function of brain...
But that does not seem to always hold true.
There are many examples of mind doing things that the structure
of brain does not seem to allow.
An example is the chiche'd parranormal.
Of epiphany

There are many valid and unresolved examples.

This is just small validation for his belief that MIND .
In concert
Is WAY more than the sum of it's parts.

Humanity has a vaste potential
How about some trust...some confidence...
Some...

Occam [the patient]

[J_Lazarus]

I see nothing in this thread but bad poetry.

How do you move from:

(1) The universe is beautiful

to

(3) The universe is all one consciousness that is God

- ?

Where is your connection between (1) and (3) - the former does not imply the latter in any way. The best I can really see you coming up with here is an emotional plea to some sort of intelligent design (iow - hogwash)

- Laz

[Burn]

No need for spiteful remarks.

God is not beautiful?
We, subjectively, cannot see the universe as beautiful?

[Razorofoccam]

No need for spiteful remarks.

God is not beautiful?
We, subjectively, cannot see the universe as beautiful?

Burn

Occam agrees...
Reality..and the titanic structure and ballance of it...
Is awesome..and beautifull...

Maybe lazarus is just a guy..who thinks guys should only think women are beautifull..
That seeing beauty is a weakness in men...
When it is actually how we define being human.

The most beautifull thing occam has ever seen..Is the look in the eyes of a 6 month old baby.. All humanity was in that look..without the corruption and stupidity. That we turned it into.
That look is THE potential...
The core of us...

Occam

[thumontico]

Occam, a monist will not agree with a dualist reguarding this subject matter. My consciousness is a result of my brain, which is measureable by the science of this reality. This reality and not some other one that I cannot be sure exists or have any reason to believe it exists.

What is mind? What epistemological grounds do you base your theory of the mind on? Possibility? Not good enough for me when I have 'fact'.

[J_Lazarus]

Burn

Occam agrees...
Reality..and the titanic structure and ballance of it...
Is awesome..and beautifull...

Maybe lazarus is just a guy..who thinks guys should only think women are beautifull..
That seeing beauty is a weakness in men...
When it is actually how we define being human.

The most beautifull thing occam has ever seen..Is the look in the eyes of a 6 month old baby.. All humanity was in that look..without the corruption and stupidity. That we turned it into.
That look is THE potential...
The core of us...

Occam Um, no. Congratulations to both of you for arguing against a strawman.

My argument was not that the universe is not beautiful - it is in many ways (and in many ways it is not, considering the Argument From Physiological Horrors). The problem with your view is not that the universe is beautiful, but rather that beauty is in direct connection with saying that the universe is a single consciousness - and that we can call that consciousness "God". How do you move from one idea to the other? There is no rational transfer from your premise to your conclusion, and thus until you show one your points are moot.

- Laz

[BlackGuardXIII]

Occam, a monist will not agree with a dualist reguarding this subject matter. My consciousness is a result of my brain, which is measureable by the science of this reality. This reality and not some other one that I cannot be sure exists or have any reason to believe it exists.

What is mind? What epistemological grounds do you base your theory of the mind on? Possibility? Not good enough for me when I have 'fact'.
Lyall Watson, " If the mind were so simple we could understand it, we would be so simple we couldn't."

My belief is that my brain is like a computer, filled with programs and applications since its conception. And its purpose is to give my mind information as efficiently and clearly as possible.
My mind, in my view, is something more, not confined to my brain, but inhabiting my whole body.

[Razorofoccam]

Um, no. Congratulations to both of you for arguing against a strawman.

My argument was not that the universe is not beautiful - it is in many ways (and in many ways it is not, considering the Argument From Physiological Horrors). The problem with your view is not that the universe is beautiful, but rather that beauty is in direct connection with saying that the universe is a single consciousness - and that we can call that consciousness "God". How do you move from one idea to the other? There is no rational transfer from your premise to your conclusion, and thus until you show one your points are moot.

- Laz
Lazarus

Quite correct...Occam does not believe our subjective concepts of beauty have anything to do with a god...

He recants his earlier assumptions..

Occam

[Razorofoccam]

Occam, a monist will not agree with a dualist reguarding this subject matter. My consciousness is a result of my brain, which is measureable by the science of this reality. This reality and not some other one that I cannot be sure exists or have any reason to believe it exists.

What is mind? What epistemological grounds do you base your theory of the mind on? Possibility? Not good enough for me when I have 'fact'.
Thurmontico

Please expand.Occam thinks the brain is the 'apparent engine ' of mind..
But we know so little of either..yet.

What epistemological grounds do you base your understanding of mind on?
What understanding of how we understand.
Do you site to explain MIND.?

As you state....fact. Fact is a product of reason/logic.
Not wholely trusted by epistemologists. :)

And..what fact is that...?
regarding MIND there is only one.
"I.......

Show occam another FACT about what mind is.

Occam is not an Epistemologist. Logical positivist.
Empiricist. Solopsist,theist, antitheist, monist, dualist, existentialist, christian, moslem , hindu, creationist....and a hundred more..

He is occam

[BlackGuardXIII]

Thurmontico

Please expand.Occam thinks the brain is the 'apparent engine ' of mind..
But we know so little of either..yet.

What epistemological grounds do you base your understanding of mind on?
What understanding of how we understand.
Do you site to explain MIND.?

As you state....fact. Fact is a product of reason/logic.
Not wholely trusted by epistemologists. :)

And..what fact is that...?
regarding MIND there is only one.
"I.......

Show occam another FACT about what mind is.

Occam is not an Epistemologist. Logical positivist.
Empiricist. Solopsist,theist, antitheist, monist, dualist, existentialist, christian, moslem , hindu, creationist....and a hundred more..

He is occam
Don't care too much for labels, huh?

Facts re: mind
we each have our own one
one mind cannot truly know another
it cannot ever truly know itself completely
facts about mind are not facts

I am likely wrong about all of the above, but oh well, maybe I will learn something from the replies.
I am a believer in magic, miracles, prayer, love and logic.

[BlackGuardXIII]

I believe there are spirits, guides, guardian angels, whatever you want to call them, that protect and help us. I feel this cuz there is no way I have any right to still be alive, and yet I am. Should have been killed ten times over already.
I believe our souls can leave our bodies and travel. It is such a firm belief now, that in my reality, it is a fact, for me, no one else.
I believe prayer is powerful, and helps, though I admit I have little actual proof at hand. I have read some, and seen healings that defied all diagnosis.
I believe love will eventually banish hate into nonexistance, this is a feeling, nothing more.
There is God, in every speck of dust on earth and star in the sky.
For me, there is, and it is not male, but what it is I know not.

[Rar1013]

Forget the Christian view as God on a throne in the sky, with Jesus "at the right hand of his father".


That is not completely a true statement....that is just what silly people think...I was raised christian..and in school they taught us that god is everywhere and is everything..

He is the sun, he is the moon, he is the sky, he is the mountains, the air, the wind...he is in all of the people that pass us by, he is in our hearts..our homes...our lives...

[Defence_mechanism]

Rar1013, it is less about the christian belief, and more about the love of beauty as a whole. if you can find solice in beauty through christianity, that's great. i find solice in beauty through life.

[BlackGuardXIII]

If there is some supreme being that has brought this whole universe into existence, then I would hope that It would not care what religion one was, or whether one was religious at all. To specify that one must adhere to one particular scripture sounds too partisan and exclusive for such an omniscient entity. By whatever name, and through whatever faith, this same entity is being revered.

I have believed for many years that "Thank you.", and "Thy will be done." are the two prayers that have any meaning. This is only my view, and what I choose to believe, so it is not said in a spirit of conversion. It is said only for the purpose of sharing what I have concluded with all of you. I very much enjoy hearing your perspectives, and have learned a lot from reading them.

If God really does fit the description given by the Christian members here, then I cannot say that I revere him. He may be so, but I cannot truthfully say that I believe it to be. Hindus, Atheists, Animists, Wiccans, Sikhs, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, etc. are all equally valid paths in my view.

[paulfreespirit]

god help us all.

[Spiritforces]

By Occam Razor:


That look is THE potential...
The core of us...


Thanks for that image

Thanks

[Spiritforces]

makes me think


Could one being discover so much in a life

He could interact with the next one
Knowing what has not to be lost since the very beginning

How long is the process to make it

real

Thanks

[Razorofoccam]

Occam, a monist will not agree with a dualist reguarding this subject matter. My consciousness is a result of my brain, which is measureable by the science of this reality. This reality and not some other one that I cannot be sure exists or have any reason to believe it exists.

What is mind? What epistemological grounds do you base your theory of the mind on? Possibility? Not good enough for me when I have 'fact'.
Thumantico

And the science of this reality is based in WHAT?
Human existant mind.. seems a product of fuctional brains.
Thus mind. a fucton of brain, reasons that brain exists because mind does.
And MIND does exist..Or it would not be able to say it does.

For self to be able to say it exists... It MUST EXIST.

IT MEANS...that a reality exists. For there can be no phenomena of 'self' without 'a' reality.
Reality allows phenomena.
The phenomena of the thought
'i reason therefore i exist'

Verifies absolutely the realiy of itself.

Occam

///
Thus not only is
'i reason therefore i exist' an absolute truth [ a fact]
But also
'and thus a reality exists'
is also.

[thumontico]

What is MIND?

[Kharakov]

If God really does fit the description given by the Christian members here, then I cannot say that I revere him. He may be so, but I cannot truthfully say that I believe it to be. Hindus, Atheists, Animists, Wiccans, Sikhs, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, etc. are all equally valid paths in my view.Equally valid, but are some of them just sightseeing paths that never lead to the top of the mountain.

[BlackGuardXIII]

Equally valid, but are some of them just sightseeing paths that never lead to the top of the mountain.
Well, Kharakov, I agree with your sentiment, in that I am totally baffled by the beliefs of some. Still, I cannot say that I know your claim to be true.
Life is a journey, which may be more important than the destination, I dunno.
Is there a mountain top? I dunno, if so, I hope I am not sightseeing.
How does one know for a certainty that another path does not get there? Maybe it switchbacks up the north side and comes out on top.

I do feel, though, that if there is a path, I am on the longer, more difficult variation. I even believe that this is by choice, though that choice is based on not taking people's advice on what I should do as often as I maybe could.
Instead, I try my way, get burned, and then say, "yeah, you were right."

I am not really looking for the top, instead, I am looking for the peaceful valley.

[Razorofoccam]

What is MIND? Thumontico

No human knows [NONE]

Occam

PS..
Thus psychiatry, psychology, neuro physiology...an a whole bunch of other 'olgies' are just a stab in the dark
WE HAVE NO REAL IDEA OF WHAT MIND IS.

That is why there are no THINKING MACHINES.
We cannot build [yet]
What we dont understand.

When we understand what MIND is...

We WILL build one.

And more importantly..understand our own.

Occam

[Kharakov]

Is there a mountain top? On a mountain top you can look at many different things. Sometimes it's good to go down to the valley to see it up close.

I am not really looking for the top, instead, I am looking for the peaceful valley. I am looking for a resting place where I am in complete harmony with my surroundings. One valley is good for some, but requires a change in me for harmony to be reached. Instead of seeking to change the valley or myself, should I not look for the perfect valley for what I am- that I might compliment the valley in every way and make it complete?

[BlackGuardXIII]

On a mountain top you can look at many different things. Sometimes it's good to go down to the valley to see it up close.

I am looking for a resting place where I am in complete harmony with my surroundings. One valley is good for some, but requires a change in me for harmony to be reached. Instead of seeking to change the valley or myself, should I not look for the perfect valley for what I am- that I might compliment the valley in every way and make it complete?
Yes, that is it. One cannot appreciate the mountaintops unless they have been in the valleys. No rain makes a desert.

"It is better to put on slippers than to try to carpet the world." Stuart Smalley (Al Franken)
"Be the change you want to see in the world." Gandhi

"We do not see the world as it is, but as we are." Anais Nin

I am hoping to find my way 'home'. I hope that makes sense.

I dont believe we can change anything but ourselves, and the attempts to do otherwise usually result in grief.
That concept is from "The Choice Theory" by Glasser, likely my favorite book.