Guess what?

[vinceneilsgirl]

I got banned from a message board for pointing out the fact that Messianic Jews are not really considered to be Jewish by the greater Jewish community. I pointed out the fact that Jews For Jesus doesn't make any sense because for Jews Jesus isn't the Messiah...and I got banned for that!

That seems like discrimination to me.

[the dauer]

What type of board was it? It's sad that there are people out there who would deny the origins of J4J, where it gets its money from, who it is mainly comprised of, and what its agenda is.

[Kharakov]

I got banned from a message board for pointing out the fact that Messianic Jews are not really considered to be Jewish by the greater Jewish community. I pointed out the fact that Jews For Jesus doesn't make any sense because for Jews Jesus isn't the Messiah...and I got banned for that!

That seems like discrimination to me.
lol. The old testament is rife with discrimination. The Jewish people were the original Master Race. Can't take what you dish out, can you?

Anyway, anybody can call themself or anyone a Jew, so what? Speaking of Jews, gotta call my jew soon.

[apaininyourbrain]

That seem like discrimination to me also..the way i understand it, they don't believe that jesus has come yet and that he was not the mesiah but a great prophet. Anyway, I'm not Jewish so what do i know? Read the da vinci code, it's a good book ;)

[vinceneilsgirl]

What type of board was it? It's sad that there are people out there who would deny the origins of J4J, where it gets its money from, who it is mainly comprised of, and what its agenda is.
You'll never believe it....it's a message board for CAT LOVERS!

I always wanted to ask you this....would you consider J4J a hate group? My brother thinks that it is. I just think it's incredibly ignorant. You seem incredibly smart so I wanted to know what your opinion is.

[vinceneilsgirl]

lol. The old testament is rife with discrimination. The Jewish people were the original Master Race. Can't take what you dish out, can you?

Anyway, anybody can call themself or anyone a Jew, so what? Speaking of Jews, gotta call my jew soon.
You do realize of course that you are an idiot.

[Kharakov]

You do realize of course that you are an idiot.
:) You make me out to be a bright beacon of intellectual honesty and grace. Thank you.

Ohh, yeah, I am glad you were the messenger for the whole jews for jesus thing. I saw it on a cartoon and got a total kick out of it.

[seamonster66]

jews for jesus reminds me of the gay republican log cabin group,

[the dauer]

You'll never believe it....it's a message board for CAT LOVERS!

I always wanted to ask you this....would you consider J4J a hate group? My brother thinks that it is. I just think it's incredibly ignorant. You seem incredibly smart so I wanted to know what your opinion is.

I don't think J4J is a hate group because from their position they are doing it to help people, just like all of the evangelists, as I have heard such people say, it is like the need to save a person from a burning building.

Of course, in order to save someone from a burning building we have no problem hurting them in the process if it is necessary. In J4J this means being not fully honest and adopting tactics similar to those of a recruiting cult, targetting the old and the young, working at college campuses, perfecting their methods of picking up the wandering and lonely Jews. And certainly, though they do it out of love, they have to first accept the idea that the people they are saving are in a worse position than they are. Otherwise they wouldn't have to be saved.

Something that covers them pretty well can be found here:

http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/FAQ-CMI.html

Dauer

[the dauer]

lol. The old testament is rife with discrimination. The Jewish people were the original Master Race. Can't take what you dish out, can you?

Anyway, anybody can call themself or anyone a Jew, so what? Speaking of Jews, gotta call my jew soon.

The tanakh covers the laws and interpreted History of a particular nation. If you have a problem with those laws, that's fine. But that's no excuse for taking your feelings out on her. It's also not what she "dished out." Those laws have continued to evolve with the Jewish people, and it remains to be seen in what esteem she holds them anyway. Also, unlike many other religions, we let our dirty laundry hang in the breeze, even have canonized it.

And yes, anyone can call themselves a Jew. That doesn't make them a Jew. I can call myself a Mason and not be a Mason. I can call myself a doctor and get in quite a bit of trouble when my "patients" return with their lawyers. J4J claims to be a part of an exclusive community that, while welcoming those who wish to join, has certain guidelines for joining. We're talking about a group of Christian fundamentalists who call themselves Jews in order to convert Jews because their sacred text says "to the Jews first."

Worse, after they've called themselves Jews, they dress like Jews, adopt Hebrew, take Jewish ritual and change its meaning to be about Jesus, and pray in "synagogues." So yes, it's important to let people know that they don't have anything to do with Judaism, are not endorsed by Judaism, and are trying to convert the Jewish people. Their rabbis go to Christian seminaries if they're not lay leaders. Better to let people know the Jewish position on these people.

Dauer

[Kharakov]

The tanakh covers the laws and interpreted History of a particular nation. If you have a problem with those laws, that's fine.Of course not. I don't try to follow them, I just do when I do.

It is more of a comment on how funny it is for a member of one of the most ethnist groups there is (Jews are right up there with nazis, KKK, fundies, etc.) to complain about being discriminated against. Girls got a deep sense of humor, deeper than mine- she was discriminating against someone and made a joke about it.

But that's no excuse for taking your feelings out on her.I do what I do, and there is no excuse for you to judge it as anything other than what is right and ordained, unless... Of course, it is a joke.

It's also not what she "dished out." Those laws have continued to evolve with the Jewish people, and it remains to be seen in what esteem she holds them anyway. Also, unlike many other religions, we let our dirty laundry hang in the breeze, even have canonized it.:) You sorta got forced too...

And yes, anyone can call themselves a Jew. That doesn't make them a Jew.Truthfully, words (and names) change with time. If a group of people starts calling themselves "Jews" or whatever, eventually, if it sticks, they will be recorded as such. Anyways, I think the whole Jew's for Jesus thing is a prank by God anyways, so why argue with it? I thought you jewish people were supposed to be funny anyway...
I can call myself a Mason and not be a Mason.Ok. You would be a liar or a joker then.

I can call myself a doctor and get in quite a bit of trouble when my "patients" return with their lawyers.So someone is gonna get in trouble for calling themself a Jew. Great. WWII all over again.

We're talking about a group of Christian fundamentalists who call themselves Jews in order to convert Jews because their sacred text says "to the Jews first."Nutballs are funny...

Worse, after they've called themselves Jews, they dress like Jews, adopt Hebrew, take Jewish ritual and change its meaning to be about Jesus, and pray in "synagogues."Like a white rapper. Oi, what's the world coming too?

So yes, it's important to let people know that they don't have anything to do with Judaism, are not endorsed by Judaism, and are trying to convert the Jewish people.Yeah, stick up for the real Jews!! No wannabe jews allowed. Only those approved by the most pure jewish community are worthy of jewishness and the name jew. I thought wars start with propaganda like this, but maybe it's just a misconception of mine.
Their rabbis go to Christian seminaries if they're not lay leaders. Better to let people know the Jewish position on these people.Or is it? You know, for me, I just let God be the spokethingy. Maybe your position isn't one that God supports so you need to speak for yourself and your community. Although I do admit that it is fun to speak and/or write stuff to people.

[the dauer]

Of course not. I don't try to follow them, I just do when I do.

It is more of a comment on how funny it is for a member of one of the most ethnist groups there is (Jews are right up there with nazis, KKK, fundies, etc.) to complain about being discriminated against. Girls got a deep sense of humor, deeper than mine- she was discriminating against someone and made a joke about it.

The problem with that comment is that although we do consider ourselves a people, we don't condemn other people. The righteous of all nations have a place in the world to come. We also don't exclude people. Anybody can become a Jew.


I do what I do, and there is no excuse for you to judge it as anything other than what is right and ordained, unless... Of course, it is a joke.


Actually, I was thinking of her feelings and you seem to be dealing rather harshly with her.


:) You sorta got forced too...

The various volumes of the TaNaKh were canonized by Jews, each part in a different period of time. There is actually some discussion in the Talmud on why certain books were included or excluded.


Truthfully, words (and names) change with time. If a group of people starts calling themselves "Jews" or whatever, eventually, if it sticks, they will be recorded as such. Anyways, I think the whole Jew's for Jesus thing is a prank by God anyways, so why argue with it? I thought you jewish people were supposed to be funny anyway...
Ok. You would be a liar or a joker then.

If they call themselves Jews long enough and nobody speaks up, then people may begin to think of them as Jews. That is why we speak up. We are taught not to wait for God.There are stories to support that all through Jewish History.


So someone is gonna get in trouble for calling themself a Jew. Great. WWII all over again.

They're not in trouble, but in general Jews will tend to make it known that they have nothing to do with Judaism.


Yeah, stick up for the real Jews!! No wannabe jews allowed. Only those approved by the most pure jewish community are worthy of jewishness and the name jew. I thought wars start with propaganda like this, but maybe it's just a misconception of mine.

The Jewish community is very varied, however except for an extremely small group of extremists, everyone recognized everyone else as a Jew. There are basic guidelines within any of the major groups. Messianic Judaism isn't even breaking away from Judaism. It's just an extension of Evangelism. I have no idea what this has to do with propaganda.


Or is it? You know, for me, I just let God be the spokethingy. Maybe your position isn't one that God supports so you need to speak for yourself and your community. Although I do admit that it is fun to speak and/or write stuff to people.

I don't know what you're talking about. You can wait to see who God supports and watch the sneakiest, most ruthless people come to power. Or, you can defend yourself when attacked, stand up for the weak, and know that if God takes sides, it sure doesn't make sense He'd let those ruthless killers take over while all the good, godly people do nothing and wait for Him to act. More likely He's waiting for them act themselves to bring healing to the world.

Dauer

[Kharakov]

The problem with that comment is that although we do consider ourselves a people, we don't condemn other people. The righteous of all nations have a place in the world to come. We also don't exclude people. Anybody can become a Jew.I wasn't aware of this. I am aware that the Jewish nation Israel treats the native inhabitants of that land as lower class citizens.

Actually, I was thinking of her feelings and you seem to be dealing rather harshly with her.I am not sure of a specific reason (besides God) that I act as I do. Accusations that are false make your position stronger as you push them back.

The various volumes of the TaNaKh were canonized by Jews, each part in a different period of time. There is actually some discussion in the Talmud on why certain books were included or excluded. I like the way you write. I feel all calm.

If they call themselves Jews long enough and nobody speaks up, then people may begin to think of them as Jews. That is why we speak up. We are taught not to wait for God.There are stories to support that all through Jewish History.And cases where God tells someone to go into battle only to be defeated.

They're not in trouble, but in general Jews will tend to make it known that they have nothing to do with Judaism. ;)
It's just an extension of Evangelism. I have no idea what this has to do with propaganda. Can't stop grinning.

I don't know what you're talking about. You can wait to see who God supports and watch the sneakiest, most ruthless people come to power.One can only hope.
Or, you can defend yourself when attacked, stand up for the weak, and know that if God takes sides, it sure doesn't make sense He'd let those ruthless killers take over while all the good, godly people do nothing and wait for Him to act. More likely He's waiting for them act themselves to bring healing to the world.So you (personally) lack faith in God? Or are you saying this for entertainment purposes? If a killer comes up to you to kill you they were brought to you by God.

[the dauer]

I wasn't aware of this. I am aware that the Jewish nation Israel treats the native inhabitants of that land as lower class citizens.
In Israel, even the Muslim women get a vote. Also, it's not a Jewish nation. It's a secular nation and a democracy. The only part of the gov't controled by a religious authority is the marriage and family laws. Many non-orthodox Jews, including myself, do not support this. There is also a lot of propaganda, as you say, put out by the Palestinians against Israelis. It is a very difficult situation, with the Palestinians sending children in as attackers sometimes. The Israeli gov't has definitely been irresponsible at times and brutish, killing innocent people. Hopefully the wall will end some of the violence. So, if you believe in God as you say He is, doesn't that mean you can't blame Israel?


I am not sure of a specific reason (besides God) that I act as I do. Accusations that are false make your position stronger as you push them back.
I am not sure if I understand what your second statement was about. I said it "seemed" because that is how it seemed to me. If it were an accustation, I would have said quite simply that is what you were doing. If I was mistaken, I apologize.
Personally, and I can speak for Jews in general, I take responsibility for my actions and do not attribute them to God. This is part of free will. If God controlled me, there would be very little chance for me to grow and improve myself by making mistakes and learning from them.


And cases where God tells someone to go into battle only to be defeated.

This was is in response to me saying there are stories in History saying we -- Jews -- should not wait for God. Personally, when I read stories like the ones you speak of, I think of any people going into battle in the name of their god. If, however, God did make the command, this has nothing to do with the times when God does not make new commands.
Whereas,in the case of the Macabees, there were people who would not fight on Shabbat. And they were killed. Then the Macabees fought on Shabbat because they placed their lives over the other commandments. Because they did so, they were able to rededicate the Temple. They did not wait for God to command them, although they were acting within Jewish law which places the preservation of life over most other laws.
Also, if you do wait for God, the people around you may not.


So you (personally) lack faith in God? Or are you saying this for entertainment purposes? If a killer comes up to you to kill you they were brought to you by God.

I do believe in God and I don't quite understand how my previous statement seems to assert otherwise. If a killer comes, maybe they are sent by God, and if so, why? A test? As a Jew I believe in tactical pacifism and I would be required to defend my life even if it meant I had to take the attacker's life. One of the problems, I think, is that for situations like these, there is usually some law within Judaism that would govern general behavior. We are required to proactively help people in various ways, even when we don't feel like it. Also, Judaism is not defined by faith but by action instead. This does not mean Jews don't believe things, just that believing as hard as we want won't make the world a better place. Actions make a difference. With all of this focus on action, the type of approach that you have is too removed from mine to serve as a good model.

Dauer

[Kharakov]

So, if you believe in God as you say He is, doesn't that mean you can't blame Israel?Of course not. I sometimes say stuff for those who are into the dramatic side of existence. There are people who watch shows like Jerry Springer and the News.

I am not sure if I understand what your second statement was about. I said it "seemed" because that is how it seemed to me. If it were an accustation, I would have said quite simply that is what you were doing. If I was mistaken, I apologize. Nothing bad happened, I was just making a statement about the nature of opposition (accusers and the like).

Personally, and I can speak for Jews in general, I take responsibility for my actions and do not attribute them to God. This is part of free will. If God controlled me, there would be very little chance for me to grow and improve myself by making mistakes and learning from them.Sure, but God is responsible for setting up oppurtunities for you and creating in you a character that works in these oppurtunities. God takes care of everything.

This was is in response to me saying there are stories in History saying we -- Jews -- should not wait for God.You never have to.
Also, if you do wait for God, the people around you may not.Yup.

I do believe in God and I don't quite understand how my previous statement seems to assert otherwise.It doesn't necessarilly. Believing in God and having complete faith in God are 2 different things.
If a killer comes, maybe they are sent by God, and if so, why?For you and the rest of the people this action effects.

A test?I doubt God needs to test anything. Probably to build an idea or concept within you.

As a Jew I believe in tactical pacifism and I would be required to defend my life even if it meant I had to take the attacker's life.No problem.

One of the problems, I think, is that for situations like these, there is usually some law within Judaism that would govern general behavior. We are required to proactively help people in various ways, even when we don't feel like it.Ok.
Also, Judaism is not defined by faith but by action instead. This does not mean Jews don't believe things, just that believing as hard as we want won't make the world a better place. Actions make a difference. With all of this focus on action, the type of approach that you have is too removed from mine to serve as a good model.Actions do make a difference. They are caused by God. I don't see how my approach is in opposition to yours?

[the dauer]

Sure, but God is responsible for setting up oppurtunities for you and creating in you a character that works in these oppurtunities. God takes care of everything.

That's really irrelevant to the fact that each of us is responsible for our own actions. We still have choices to make and these choices effect people. In Judaism there is a Yetzer HaRa, an evil inclination, and a Yetzer HaTov, a good inclination. The evil inclination is not really evil, and can be used for good, but it is our base drives. The yetzer hatov, the good inclination, is our ability to go beyond those base drives. In any given situation, we have a choice to make. And whether we have a predilection to move one way or another, the choice is still ours to make.


It doesn't necessarilly. Believing in God and having complete faith in God are 2 different things.

I guess what I said later in my previous post explains things better, but to me having complete faith in God does not mean allowing oneself to be tossed around in the shifting current of mankind. To refer to a popular myth, we are here to take care of the garden, not to let the garden take care of us.


I doubt God needs to test anything. Probably to build an idea or concept within you.
Yeah, I was just volunteering an idea, not necessarily one I support.


Actions do make a difference. They are caused by God. I don't see how my approach is in opposition to yours?

Because in Judaism actions are caused by man. God cannot violate free will. If we don't act when we see things wrong with the world, the blame can only fall on us.

Dauer

[Taylor]

Ok, first of all, Jews for Jesus... I don't know much about them but I doubt they're a HATE group. I've met and discussed 'messianic judaism' with a couple of people (and I put it in quotation marks because as a jew, I don't know if I agree with it as judaism) and there doesn't seem to be too much hate in it... It just doesn't make sense to me. According to Judaism, the messiah hasn't come yet. There are branches of judaism who believe their rabbi will BE the messiah but the world isnt ready for him yet (Lubavitcher, Nachman etc) but it seems like a basic fundamental part of judaism that we are waiting for the messiah. It says in the torah that when the messiah comes, it will be heaven on earth... well, if thats the case then apparently it should be heaven now according to messianic jews...

Also, in terms of Israel and the "native people", I heard a good joke the other day.

Ariel Sharon and Yasser Arafat are sitting around the negotiating table. They take a break and Sharon turns to Arafat and says "I heard a good joke the other day." Arafat says "really? What was it?" So Sharon tells him the joke.
"Moses was sitting in Israel, by the side of a river. It was a hot day and he decided to go for a swim to wash himself off. He strips off, leaves his clothes by the side of the river and goes for a swim. It's a GREAT swim, he feels so much better, the water is cool, its lovely. Then he goes to get out of the water... And his clothes aren't there. Who do you think took them?"
And Arafat says "I don't know... Who took them?"
Sharon replies "well, the Palestinians of course."
Arafat exclaims "But they weren't around then!"
And Sharon says "Exactly!"

[Kharakov]

That's really irrelevant to the fact that each of us is responsible for our own actions.Not at all. The fact that God gives us both a predilection towards 'good' or 'evil' does not change the fact that God is responsible to guide us towards the proper choice. My claim is that God is ultimately responsible for the teaching and guidance of the creation (us).
We still have choices to make and these choices effect people. In Judaism there is a Yetzer HaRa, an evil iclination, and a Yetzer HaTov, a good inclination. The evil inclination is not really evil, and can be used for good, but it is our base drives. The yetzer hatov, the good inclination, is our ability to go beyond those base drives.Yes.
In any given situation, we have a choice to make. And whether we have a predilection to move one way or another, the choice is still ours to make.Yes, but at the same time, these choices are designed to mold us (to impact our future choices) by the differing outcomes of the choices we make.

I guess what I said later in my previous post explains things better, but to me having complete faith in God does not mean allowing oneself to be tossed around in the shifting current of mankind.Of course not. We are 'tossed around' by the forces of God that mold us into what we become. We are not shaped by man but by God. The interplay of interior and exterior forces is where the illusion of personal responsibility comes about. The interior forces (your 'self') must sometimes exert upon the exterior forces (the world) for this is their purpose. There are times when the exterior forces must exert upon the interior as well. All of these forces are set in motion by and regulated by God. To see the interior forces as 'separate' is just another outcome of these forces, it is not always 'correct' nor is it always 'incorrect'.

If the forces within you exert force outside of your self, it is because this is God's plan, if they are molded by forces outside of your self, this is God's plan. How else can these forces act in harmony?
Because in Judaism actions are caused by man. God cannot violate free will. If we don't act when we see things wrong with the world, the blame can only fall on us. See, I don't see blame (for God either, although God is responsible). I see credit. I see life being taught and raised into wisdom and grace.

I don't see things wrong with the world, I see a grand play being acted out by God and Man, for the greatness of all.

I don't see 'actions are caused by man' I see actions that are done by men, though caused by God.

[the dauer]

Kharakov,

what you are suggesting is something similar to an idea I have been introduced to before, particularly in the form of a Holocaust theology based on Kabalistic ideas. It is a little different, but similar in that it suggested God needed the Holocaust at that point in time for humanity to progress from where it was, and so different souls opted to be the victim, victimizer, onlooker, etc.

When I said blame that was a poor choice of words on my part because I have been struggling to find the words to ask what seems for me the most salient question. When I read what you've been posting, it seems as if you're removing all responsibility from the individual for his or her actions. Is this the case?

I am also confused because iirc this whole conversation started when I was expressing my need to act, and you were saying I shouldn't worry about it because if it happens it is God's will, but according to that idea, isn't it God's will if I choose to act despite what you say as well?

I think those questions should clarify most of what I still do not understand about your position.

Dauer

[Kharakov]

what you are suggesting is something similar to an idea I have been introduced to before, particularly in the form of a Holocaust theology based on Kabalistic ideas. It is a little different, but similar in that it suggested God needed the Holocaust at that point in time for humanity to progress from where it was, and so different souls opted to be the victim, victimizer, onlooker, etc. I take war as seriously as professional wrestling, politics, and my girlfriends soap opera. Don't believe anything that your parents tell you about history, actually, don't believe anything anyone tells you about history (other than that it could have been acted out for your benefit).

When I read what you've been posting, it seems as if you're removing all responsibility from the individual for his or her actions. Is this the case? Yup, except for the individual known as God.

I am also confused because iirc this whole conversation started when I was expressing my need to act, and you were saying I shouldn't worry about it because if it happens it is God's will, but according to that idea, isn't it God's will if I choose to act despite what you say as well?Yeah. Shouldn't worry about it though. Either way, what you do is part of the plan. Act on... but act without feeling pressure to act. I am on a time limit here, so I have to go get ready for the bar (just spent 6 hours in the philly airport waiting for my connecting flight). Damn that pressure to act.... the way I want.