Ahhhh! Not four more years of...

[rocknroll_girl]

...second-class citizenship!

Right now the polls are at 196 Bush, 112 Kerry. Swing states are huge right now. I'm really nervous...

[PhotoGra1]

I completely agree with your frustrations, but don't fool yourself. Neither candidate will do much for gays and lesbians until there is a political reason to do so. The gay vote historically has a very high % of democrat votes, so neither candidate does much to "win" there votes. We would be much better off if the gay vote was split close to 50/50, so that each candidate would have a reason to fight for us.

All that being said, I sure hope Kerry wins...

The idea of a constituional ammendment prohibiting same-sex marriage is absurd and dangerous!

[Snowdancer]

It's not over yet. There is still a deasability that John Kerry could win. Let's hope so...
I find it more disturbing that every state that had referenda on gay marriage made it illegal.

[SelfControl]

There are something you shouldn't ask the people about, because they're just too important. This is part of my problem with democracy as an ideal.

Don't worry chickens, we'll try and get Blair out, it might help, you never know.

[Defence_mechanism]

far out. i was hoping that John Howard, George Bush and Tony Blair would be gone, but so far Howard and Bush are in...
please get Blair out!

the whole world is waiting with baited breath for this election. i still stand by someone's previous statements on this forum site that the US election should be worldwide!

[LMoffet1]

I'm just so pissed off right now... Kerry just conceded. 4 more years of... this bullshit.

[Patch]

if i believed in a god i would say, "God help us all"...this is just surreal...maybe the confederates had it right at the civil war...except for you know...the slavery thing...but separate countries is looking really good right now...like ani said, "We hold these truths to be self evident...number one...George Bush is not president"...although this time it seems as though he actually won...which disturbs me...why america why?!
all i know is that he doesn't represent me...he doesn't support me and my people...he is a dirty man...behind all of that smirking and joking is a dirty and hurful campiagn...he will stop at nothing for power...if you don't believe me...consult the frontline special concerning a side by side comparision between bush and kerry...kerry isn't perfect...but he atleast is compassionate for people who aren't born-again christians...nothing against the born agains.

that was my rant...now i'm moving to canada...i wish.

[LogsOnSticks]

Am I the only one here who is ECSTATIC over Bush's victory!!!!!?????

Don't get me wrong, while I'd love to have civil unions support gay marriage, its really not so much of an important issue right now...We've got bigger problems to deal with right now, rather than dealing with gay marriages...

[rocknroll_girl]

Am I the only one here who is ECSTATIC over Bush's victory!!!!!?????
Yes, I would imagine so. But I respect you for it.

[Defence_mechanism]

Don't get me wrong, while I'd love to have civil unions support gay marriage, its really not so much of an important issue right now...We've got bigger problems to deal with right now, rather than dealing with gay marriages...

dude i dont think gay marriage is the top of the list in the things Bush is bad at. he's started a frikkin war. he wont sign the kyoto protocol. he's signed a FTA with Australia (where i live) thats gonna stuff up our country's culture and economy (granted, our PM signed it too, i wasnt happy with either of them). he uses religion in politics (not a good mix). what more do you want?

this guy is gonna be the most powerful leader in the world for the next 4 years and i dont think the world can take it...

[Taylor]

I've been having this discussion with the other 9 people I live with and in our commune there's a large spectrum of political views (from the bush supporters to the anarchists) and so we were discussing the positives and the negatives of Bush.

I came to the conclusion that the difference between me (dirty hippie, left wing, socialist, feminist, not so materialistic, not so zionist, equal rights campaigner) and a girl in our house (more right wing, more materialistic, very zionist) is just that we put a different priority on things. This girl didn't know that Bush was anti-gay marriage. But she'll still support Bush because he's good for israel. I also think that israel is important but I put gay rights and freedom to have an abortion above the amount of aid that Israel gets (more from bush, less (probably) from kerry).

Basically, I'm rather disappointed that Bush won. I can't be angry nor can I launch a huge tirade against america/americans because I don't live in the USA nor do I know enough about the situation... I just don't like Bush from what I know about him. (I don't like kerry either but he's better then Bush)

[txbarefooter]

I voted against bush, not so much "for" Kerry as it was against bush.

He pulled out of the 1972 ABM (anti-ballistic missle) treaty and is pushing ahead with spending billions on an ABM system that won't work.

He pulled out of the Kyoto accord (reducing green house gasses), making the US the ONLY industrialized nation to do so.

He is squeezing the shit out of the Constitutionally guaranteed seperation of church and state. (his faith based bullshit)

He has made the US more divided than at any time since the civil war.

He will end legal abortion.

He has ruined the already shaky reputation that the US had in the Arab world and lost support from one time allies.

He has the largest deficit in history and he has lost more jobs than any other president in 75 years.

His war has cost over 1,000 US lives and thousands upon thousands of non-combatant lives.

Not bad for four years. Now that he has total conrol of Congress, the Senate and most likely will have "republican" control of the supreme court who know just how much more fuck-ups the US and the world is in for.

[Brocktoon]

Lets get our 'Axioms' in order folks.

Starting with misleading terms like 'Anti-Gay Marriage'.
This is not something to 'be' yet.
So far there is no acknowledged thing as 'Gay Marriage'.
Its not as if someone is 'opposed' to Married Gay Couples who do not yet exist.

You know what Im saying.

Now then, lets stop acting as if the most important thing in the world will be getting some tax and social benefits to homosexuals/Lesbians who decide to merge themselves in a commitment.

The USA (and other Allies) have a lot of work left in stopping the Al Quaida war, as well as oppressing anti-western/israel/russian regimes.
(like Iraqs Baathists or Chechnyans, PLO etc etc)

So.. WILL there one day be such a thing as 'Gay Marriage' privilages?
Maybe.
There NEVER has been so lets not act as if a small percentage of the population getting some privilages they never had before, is somehow a real important measuring rod on this administration.

[PhotoGra1]

Lets get our 'Axioms' in order folks.

Starting with misleading terms like 'Anti-Gay Marriage'.
This is not something to 'be' yet.
So far there is no acknowledged thing as 'Gay Marriage'.
Its not as if someone is 'opposed' to Married Gay Couples who do not yet exist.

You know what Im saying.

Now then, lets stop acting as if the most important thing in the world will be getting some tax and social benefits to homosexuals/Lesbians who decide to merge themselves in a commitment.

The USA (and other Allies) have a lot of work left in stopping the Al Quaida war, as well as oppressing anti-western/israel/russian regimes.
(like Iraqs Baathists or Chechnyans, PLO etc etc)

So.. WILL there one day be such a thing as 'Gay Marriage' privilages?
Maybe.
There NEVER has been so lets not act as if a small percentage of the population getting some privilages they never had before, is somehow a real important measuring rod on this administration.
A small percentage of the population? It is about the same size as the percent of Jews. Privleges? How about civil rights? This argument could have been used against the emancipation of slaves.

[Brocktoon]

Marriage is not a civil right.
Its a privilage.
Its where the rest of society agree's to give special rights, benefits and even money to one man and one woman, who agree to merge (marry) their lives together.

The marriage privilage is fair and equal to everyone, Jew, Gay, Wasp, anyone.

[Patch]

Marriage is not a civil right.
The marriage privilage is fair and equal to everyone, Jew, Gay, Wasp, anyone.
...anyone except for gays?
why should society decide what are privilages are...especially when our interests are not kept in mind?

[benny]

I'm not gay right now but I don't know what the future holds either, I find men and women attractive and who doesnt? I think It is a crime against humans and humanity not to let people's sex preference be there own choice as well as marraige, I say we get more loving groups of people who want to marry that way we really freak these homophobic people out, keep fight'n the good fight

[benny]

well patch they shouldn/t but this isn't utopia either, marraige is not a privillage either it's a basic right shared by all of us who live here, along with being able to go where you want have a home children etc. I don't fully understand why gays where left out of this but I don't think of that as a privillage , I think privalage is be able to go to the store to get food maybe everyone should have to endure a 3-day period of starving to do that, privalage is being able to afford the things society says we should have,maybe we shoul all go with out modern fixations, but I think gays have the right to answer this question more than anyone becauase there right as a human being has been takin from them they can't marry leaglly so they are among the poor in america, peace keep up the good fight.

[rocknroll_girl]

Its where the rest of society agree's to give special rights, benefits and even money to one man and one woman, who agree to merge (marry) their lives together.
If that's all it is, why must it be one man and one woman? I mean, if it truly is meant to be such a random thing.

[Brocktoon]

Thats great for everyone here to 'prefer' the benefits of state-recognised marriage go to One/Two or More Men/women/Transgendered to One/Two or More Men/women/Transgendered people(s).

The only thing we have now is the standard One Man to One Woman.

As a single man, I do NOT recieve these benefits and while I might want the legislation changed so that I can get the 'Same Rights' as married people - so far, this is not an option.

So there is really no sense in me saying 'Bush opposed my rights to One man Marriage'

Its not really helpful to declare 'Bush is anti-single male'.

So you might want to convince the majority (who will be the ones giving the tax advantage to YOU) that 'Gay Couples' should get privilages too.
Great.

But until then, by definition, nothing is being 'taken away' from you.

Dig?

[Patch]

as a single male you won't need to visit yourself in the hospital, you won't need your own health benefits, and you won't need to be able to stay in your own after you die.

a privilage is something that is granted to you, you lose your television privilages if you misbehave...eating is necessity...so marriage and eating are on different levels.
marriage becomes a right when it is ok for most others but not for a certain group...male female marriages are granted with minimal contest...
i do understand (all to well) that the world is not perfect...however that doesn't mean we can't strive for improvment.

[Brocktoon]

That doesnt work Patch.
I do not have the privilige to visit people after hours in the hospital.
Yes I need medical benefits
and i dont get widower benefits if my best friend or the girl Im seeng dies.

[PhotoGra1]

Marriage is not a civil right.
Its a privilage.

A privilege? Meaning: a right reserved exclusively by a particular person or group (especially a hereditary or official right); "suffrage was the prerogative of white adult males." By definition I guess you are correct, but this does not make it right. As the example in the definition (from Princeton) suggests, voting was a privilege enjoyed by only white males. It is now a right. This still does not mean that it is not a civil rights issue, just as women's suffrage and african-american suffrage was a civil rights issue before it became a right.

Civil rights is defined by Princeton as: right or rights belonging to a person by reason of citizenship including especially the fundamental freedoms and privileges guaranteed by the 13th and 14th amendments and subsequent acts of Congress including the right to legal and social and economic equality.

This note is also made on the definition page: Whereas the rights of African-Americans should have been secured with the Thirteenth and Fourteenth Constitutional Amendments (1865-1868), it was actually a full century before a complete Civil Rights Act (1965) entered the books. It guaranteed voting rights, which had been incomplete in the face of local registration requirements, and prohibited various sorts of discrimination and segregation. This act had implications not only for blacks, but for all minorities; it spoke against gender-based discrimination also.

[LaurelBayTree]

4 more years of me and people i know fighting for out rights

[Brocktoon]

Its not your right to marry another woman.

You may hope to convince the majority to give you the privilages of State recognised Marriage.
Great.

But stop pretending as if you already have that right 'if only' it were not being withheld from you.