The Question

[Varuna]

In the interest of clarity I want to ask an obvious question:

What Are The Attributes Of God?

You know, the primary qualities, the "things" that God is and/or is the source of, what are they?

So far, I have Love, Truth, Wisdom, Compassion, Creativity, Life, Consciousness, Reality, Bliss (or Joy), Unity (One-ness), and of course, Mystery.

I would not be surprised to learn that I had forgotten something . . . like . . . Peace (D'oh!) so please feel free to remind me.

And by all means, please contribute your thoughts, adjust the list, fill in the blanks, ask questions, tell me if, or why, or in what manner, I may have misunderstood or, at least, miscommunicated.

Thanks,

Peace and Love,

[TheHammerSpeaks]

What Are The Attributes Of God?

There's just one: ineffability.

[BlackGuardXIII]

In the interest of clarity I want to ask an obvious question:

What Are The Attributes Of God?

You know, the primary qualities, the "things" that God is and/or is the source of, what are they?

So far, I have Love, Truth, Wisdom, Compassion, Creativity, Life, Consciousness, Reality, Bliss (or Joy), Unity (One-ness), and of course, Mystery.

I would not be surprised to learn that I had forgotten something . . . like . . . Peace (D'oh!) so please feel free to remind me.

And by all means, please contribute your thoughts, adjust the list, fill in the blanks, ask questions, tell me if, or why, or in what manner, I may have misunderstood or, at least, miscommunicated.

Thanks,

Peace and Love,
eternal mystery

[thumontico]

I contend 'God' has nothing to do with anything.

Love- essentially a chemical reaction, on a non chemical level also is greatly to do with personal relationship and social expectation of a particular feeling resulting.

Truth- objective facts, things that can be empirically, rationally, and logically explained.

Wisdom- Result of subjective experiences, acknowledgement of rationaility and logic

Compassion- Completely subjective human feeling created through socialization, empathy, sympathy

Creativity- ability of the human brain (usually right side) to create abstract thoughts and percieve aesthetic value

Life- Rational condition. Humans evolved as all other species. Increased brain mass due to increases protein diet allowing us to begin questioning and making up stories for the meaning of life. You were born of natural means, you live your life in society or outside.

Consciousness- to be aware of your existence and ability to percieve outside stimuli

Reality- completely subjective perceptions of the brain.

Bliss (or Joy)- result endorphins and other chemicals entering synapses of the neural network

Unity- result of the need for humans to form bonds as to feel less alone, work towards desired goals and other reasons

Mystery, ineffability- Tool people use to claim that just because there is no reason to believe there is a god, there might be something we don't understand or cannot precieve because if such was the case it would automatically mean God in fact existed


Because happiness and creativity is a product of the mind and not some external source that does not make it any less profound. In fact it makes it infinitely more profound.

These are all magnifiscent creations of the human race, accept it as such.

[Cosmic Butterfly]

God is everything. Not just things that our human self percieves as good, but also what we know is bad.

[Varuna]

I contend 'God' has nothing to do with anything.

Love- essentially a chemical reaction, on a non chemical level also is greatly to do with personal relationship and social expectation of a particular feeling resulting.

Truth- objective facts, things that can be empirically, rationally, and logically explained.

Wisdom- Result of subjective experiences, acknowledgement of rationaility and logic

Compassion- Completely subjective human feeling created through socialization, empathy, sympathy

Creativity- ability of the human brain (usually right side) to create abstract thoughts and percieve aesthetic value

Life- Rational condition. Humans evolved as all other species. Increased brain mass due to increases protein diet allowing us to begin questioning and making up stories for the meaning of life. You were born of natural means, you live your life in society or outside.

Consciousness- to be aware of your existence and ability to percieve outside stimuli

Reality- completely subjective perceptions of the brain.

Bliss (or Joy)- result endorphins and other chemicals entering synapses of the neural network

Unity- result of the need for humans to form bonds as to feel less alone, work towards desired goals and other reasons

Mystery, ineffability- Tool people use to claim that just because there is no reason to believe there is a god, there might be something we don't understand or cannot precieve because if such was the case it would automatically mean God in fact existed


Because happiness and creativity is a product of the mind and not some external source that does not make it any less profound. In fact it makes it infinitely more profound.

These are all magnifiscent creations of the human race, accept it as such.
Oooh, a paradox, a meaningful meaninglessness, an objective subjectivity.

Anarchy Rules (HAHAHAHAHA!!!).

If only those things that exist physically (you know, those things you can touch, or taste, or smell, or see) are real . . .

or, rather,

If those non-physical "things" in which some people stubbornly insist on believing, are, as you seem to suggest, merely the amusing by-products of a bunch of neurotransmitters that function only to insure that this pile of meat continues to exist . . .

or,

If there is no "objective" reason to believe in those "subjective" things such as truth, compassion, creativity, consciousness, reality, (not to mention love, peace, unity, bliss, mystery, etc.) and so on . . .

or, rather,

if all non-physical aspects of reality are only validly understood when reduced to the physical process that accompanies them, rendering either absurd or meaningless whatever inherent value they may have . . .

Then meaning itself is suspect.

If that is true (truth? uh-oh!) why should I, or anyone, consider the pattern of symbols you have arranged to be anything other than a random transmission of electrons. Why should I, or anyone, consider any "meaning" that may accompany your words. Why should I, or anyone, even consider whether your thoughts are more meaningful than meaningless. Why should I, or anyone, consider that your words have more meaning than silence.

On the other hand, please consider the non-physical reality of fun, play, thought, conversation and humor.

Oh yeah, and gratitude, as in,
Thanks for not taking any of this too personally,

Peace and Love

[riptiderevolucion]

As soon as one begins to speak of God, one is no longer speaking of God.

That is, unless you're referring to the blind, insecure creator deity of the Old and New Testaments. Then we can come up with all sorts of words to describe Him: jealous, vengeful, fickle, racist, needy, oppressive, etc. God says, "I created you bitches! No do what I say or pay the ultimate price! Can't you see that I love you? I created you out of love. Why won't you do what I say? I gave you free will so that you might obey me out of choice. Look, I executed Jesus for you. Can't you see that I love you?"

I think the conventional Western understanding of God is very similar to the kind of confused thought possessed by women who repeatedly enter abusive relationships.

[BlackBillBlake]

According to the Vedanta philosophy of India, God has many aspects. But generally, Brahman (God) is said to exist as Saguna Brahman - God with attributes, and Nirguna Brahman, God without attributes.

There has been much disagreement among Vedantic philosophers as to which of these actually represents the Supreme. Some. like Shankara stress the impersonal Nirguna Brahman, others, Ramanuja, Madhva, Chaitanya, the Saguna Brahman, or personal God - although He is concieved of under many forms.
Others say both are aspects of One inconceivable Reality.

[Varuna]

According to the Vedanta philosophy of India, God has many aspects. But generally, Brahman (God) is said to exist as Saguna Brahman - God with attributes, and Nirguna Brahman, God without attributes.

There has been much disagreement among Vedantic philosophers as to which of these actually represents the Supreme. Some. like Shankara stress the impersonal Nirguna Brahman, others, Ramanuja, Madhva, Chaitanya, the Saguna Brahman, or personal God - although He is concieved of under many forms.
Others say both are aspects of One inconceivable Reality.Yeah!

Please excuse me for a moment while I put my well-blown mind back together.

Now, smile politely at dualism (not that there is anything wrong with dualism as long as you remember that it is, ultimately, provisional), and then remember that all reality is a single, unified whole.

Consider your horizon. Objectively speaking, it doesn't really exist, it is merely a function of the earth's curvature. No one has ever rapped their knuckles on it, no one has ever gathered up a bucketful of horizon. But since you can see everything on your side of the horizon and nothing on the other side, your horizon is as real as anything you can see. In a very practical way, the horizon is a clear illustration of dualism, it divides your world into a duality of visible/un-visible.

Now, one could expand their horizon by going out into space until half the earth is visible and half un-visible. But no one can actually divide the earth into two halves by doing so.

So, of course, regardless of whatever dualistic perspective you use to divide reality (and it seems there are countless ways one may divide reality - yin/yang, East/West, Liberal/Conservative, old/young, potential/actual, theistic/atheistic, known/unknown, knowable/unknowable, good/bad, manifest/unmanifest, attributed/unattributed, etc.) it is always wise to remember that you haven't really divided reality into separate halves. Reality is always a single, unified whole, regardless of how you see it. The real trick, of course, is "seeing" it.

So Saguna Brahman - God with attributes, and Nirguna Brahman, God without attributes actually ARE aspects of One inconceivable Reality.

Now, what was I forgetting . . . oh yeah, excuse me for a moment while I put my mind back together.

Aaahh! . . . that's . . . Aaaah! . . .Thanks,

Peace and Love

[Meagain]

Without one there cannot be many and without many it is not possible to refer to one.

Therefore one and many arise dependently and such phenomena do not have the sign of inherent existence.

-Nagarjuna

[thumontico]

Varuna, abstract all you want. My point was that what people call the functioning of God, can instead be explained by earthly means.

Meaningless provisionally, meaningless eternally, UNLESS Y O U create meaning.

Objective truth arrived by means of subjective writing or concept or ideas does not equate validity....even if it was written a really long time ago.

mmmsorry

[TheHammerSpeaks]

Meaningless provisionally, meaningless eternally, UNLESS Y O U create meaning.

So then someone can believe in God to give life meaning. Even Nietzsche admitted that Kierkegaard lived his life authentically.

[Varuna]

Varuna, abstract all you want. My point was that what people call the functioning of God, can instead be explained by earthly means. Yes, of course. Just about everything can be explained in terms of one physical phenomenon or another. But that does not mean that reality must only be understood as a by-product of chemistry or physics or biology or any of the other physical disciplines.

My point is simple - Reality is more than merely physical. In the real world in which you and I live, there are "things" that exist that have no physical reality, or at least, their reality is not primarily physical. You are certainly free to ignore them as mere abstractions, concepts, theories, patterns of reality, significant relationships between things that do have physical reality, etc. but it is probably less than wise, if not impossible, to discount them altogether.

The paradox of your idea is this - It has no physically verifiable existence. The idea that physical, objective reality is the only reality that has any physically verifiable existence is just that, an idea. As an idea, it has no physically verifiable existence. There may be some chemical process happening in our brains whenever we have that thought, but the chemistry of that thought is not substantially any different from that of any thought. The chemistry is not the thought.

So according to your idea, should I believe in your idea or not?

Of course, I believe that your idea is a pattern of thought that actually does exist. The question is whether or not it corresponds to reality. If it doesn't, then you risk mistaking your idea for the non-existent non-reality that it seems to suggest. It is usually foolish, and sometimes even dangerous, to refuse to recognize any aspect of reality, regardless of whether or not it has any physically verifiable existence. In other words, please don't let this idea of yours come between you and reality.

That quality of correspondence between reality (of which you have created a model in your pattern of thought) and your model of reality itself is what most people call "truth." Put more simply, truth is the quality of correspondence between what is and what one says it is. Things, beliefs, ideas, theories, concepts, etc. can be true or not, but, because it is a unique, recurring pattern to which reality constantly conforms, truth itself IS a non-physical aspect of reality.

Whether it is abstract or not depends on your experience.

Meaningless provisionally, meaningless eternally, UNLESS Y O U create meaning. Who me? Create meaning? Most days, I feel lucky if I can "create" some idea of what to have for lunch. I am flattered, in fact, right now my ego has a stiffy, but . . .

I think meaning is either there or it isn't. If there is meaning to be found, then anyone who knows their way around the mythosphere can find it. Finding meaning feels quite a bit like creativity, so sometimes it may seem like it was just "made up." On the other hand, if there is no meaning to be found, then whatever one "creates" will probably be meaningless.

There is a quote from Charles Mingus, I think, or maybe it was Thelonius Monk, who said "Writing a song is easy, you just have to remember it before anybody else."

Objective truth arrived by means of subjective writing or concept or ideas does not equate validity....even if it was written a really long time ago. I am not quite sure what that means. But, hey, I'm a good sport so I'll play along.

It is true that ideas are just ideas, concepts are just concepts, theories are just theories, beliefs are just beliefs. But sometimes ideas, concepts and theories, and even beliefs (when approached with some care), are really good vehicles for conveying meaning. Of course, some ideas, concepts, theories and beliefs do not carry much useful meaning at all, or if they do, it is hard to find.

My guess is "written a really long time ago" refers to the classic spiritual texts, you know: The Bible, The Bhagavad Gita, The Koran, The Tao Te Ching, The Ramayana, The Dhammapada, The Upanishads, The Mahabharat, The Torah, The Talmud, just to name a few. There are more, but, you get the idea.

Traditionally these are considered really good places to look for meaning. Of course, reality is far more meaningful, in far more ways, than a dozen or so books. But since reality doesn't have a single, comprehensive instruction manual, the above books are a good place to start. As long as you don't mistake them for authoritative technical or scientific texts. Which, I believe, may have been your point.

mmmsorryYeah, I know what you mean. I hope you're having as much fun as I am with this.

Peace and Love

[sassure]

One day we may be able to quantify the attributes of the God Force.....but for now, we can only intuit those attributes, or realize them after an enlightenment -- though we may not be able to verbalize what we realize.....

[Sebbi]

Can I ask why you are asking this question and not living it.

The greatest fool will not be able to answer that question. The wisest man on earth will not be able to answer that question. A bunch of odd mystic hippies will certainly not be able to answer that question.

Blessings

Sebbi

[Varuna]

Can I ask why you are asking this question and not living it.

The greatest fool will not be able to answer that question. The wisest man on earth will not be able to answer that question. A bunch of odd mystic hippies will certainly not be able to answer that question.

Blessings

SebbiOf course you can ask why. You can ask any question that you can put into words.

So, why am I asking? Because I want to know what you think, what you know, of the attributes of God. I realize this question and its answer fit together just about as well as a cup and the ocean, but I believe it is vital to continue asking the "unanswerable" questions. If nothing else, it maintains your healthy sense of wonder regarding the ineffable mystery.

To answer the second part of your question - I am living it. Who says I am not? The greatest fool? The wisest man on earth? A bunch of odd mystic hippies?

I believe that I am conscious of, and, to the best of my ability, responsive to the reality of Love, Truth, Peace, Wisdom, Compassion, Creativity, Life, Consciousness, Reality, Bliss (or Joy), Unity (One-ness), and of course, Mystery.

It is perfectly human to have an individual point of view, another perspective. I would love to hear what yours is. Which is why I asked.

Peace and Love

[Sebbi]

Well since I still consider myself an atheist I'm talking about the universe here, not God per se.


I believe the universe is exactly how it should be with nothing added and nothing taken away.

I believe the greatest way to experience the mystery is to stop investing so much energy into the things that we do that we would rather not. In general reserving all the energy we are squandering, then stare at a blade of grass for a few days. Then stare at the horizon for a few more.

That is truely discovering mystery. I find the big questions to intellectual and to up in my head and not in my heart.

Blessings

Sebbi

[Varuna]

Well since I still consider myself an atheist I'm talking about the universe here, not God per se.We very well may be talking about the same thing. But, please, don't let me discourage you from considering the Universe. Don't let anyone discourage you from considering the Universe.

I believe the universe is exactly how it should be with nothing added and nothing taken away.I agree.

I believe the greatest way to experience the mystery is to stop investing so much energy into the things that we do that we would rather not. In general reserving all the energy we are squandering, then stare at a blade of grass for a few days. Then stare at the horizon for a few more.I know what you mean. Some variation of this, this pondering of reality, is what all mystics do.

That is truely discovering mystery. I find the big questions to intellectual and to up in my head and not in my heart.Yes! You are on to something when you can appreciate mystery.

I would have to say, however, that there is essentially no real difference between the heart and the mind, between knowing and loving. No one can say where one ends and the other begins.

It is only an idea. If it doesn't play well then just let it go.

Blessings

Sebbi Thanks

Peace and Love

Varuna

[Sebbi]

I would have to say, however, that there is essentially no real difference between the heart and the mind, between knowing and loving. No one can say where one ends and the other begins.

I would definitely disagree on this one.

I think that it is a fairly easy distinction to make and I learned how to make it the hard way.

I had a period where I completely neglected my emotions for a long time and was just thinking all the time.

I only realised that I had a heart that was closed up when it was already closed up and there were people knocking on the door trying to get in.

Blessings

Sebbi

[Kharakov]

God says, "I created you bitches! No do what I say or pay the ultimate price! Can't you see that I love you? I created you out of love. Why won't you do what I say? I gave you free will so that you might obey me out of choice. Look, I executed Jesus for you. Can't you see that I love you?"So you never got the memo that God loves you even though you do what you want instead of what you are told? Maybe you did and you are slow...

I think the conventional Western understanding of God is very similar to the kind of confused thought possessed by women who repeatedly enter abusive relationships.Who is the one getting abused in this relationship. The one who does there best to provide for its creation, even though its creation doesn't like to eat the vegetables (metaphorically speaking)? I see God as more of a super patient harassed creator, who instead of giving in to childrens demands, does what is correct for them.

[cerridwen]

Well, I know a couple things for sure... God loves marshmallows and he wants all of us to share them with everyone we know, so we can have marshmallow orgies.

[grace]

God is everything. Not just things that our human self percieves as good, but also what we know is bad.
i agree with Cosmic Butterfly. there's a Hindu saying that sums it up pretty well: "it is better to see God in everything than to try to figure it out". life is inherently meaningful- we just have to open our eyes to it.

[campbell34]

all it takes to be a god.... is find people ignorent enough to place blind faith in you becouse they can't find the true meaning of life... or understand there purpose... or simply afraid of death...
Insanejester, that is why I am a Christian. It is a faith that is based on historical prophecies that are factual. And those who live outside of those facts, are those who believe in blind faith. It was Jesus Christ, who fulfilled over 300 of the Old Testament prophecies. And He does give our lives true meaning.

[campbell34]

ok, now ask me if i give a shit.....
Ok, it's you choice, live for God or flip Him the finger. You got all eternity to think about your decision. And who knows, after 10,000 years, maybe you will give a shit. Hope you make the right choice. The Bible states that most will make the wrong one.

[Varuna]

the bible tends to say alot of shit... but it doesn't make it true bro...

if i wanted to live a life full of fairytales and hypocracy then i'd become a lawyer...



but go ahead, keep believen in the toothfairy, god, and st. nick... we all need somethen to get us through the day... if u need a long boring story to justify your existance, that's your life... don't try and push ur shit off on other people that don't want or need it..."Which myth are YOU living?" . . . to quote Joseph Campbell. He had a few things to say about myths - you know, the stories humans use to convey ineffable meaning, valuable clues about the nature of reality and how we might not only survive, but live well and meaningfully in relation with this reality.

Regardless of what you may believe about yourself and your relationship with the reality you actually live in, even you (your consciousness) are informed by, and live by, the myths that somehow manage to get past your ego.

Ten thousand, two thousand, even two hundred years ago, people had storytellers, written stories, and performed stories as well as philosophers, prophets and preachers to convey mythological meaning. Today we also have movies, pop culture (including your favorite bands), television and the newsmedia.

It is important to know that it doesn't really matter whether your myth is a true story (like the "stories" we read about Jesus, Buddha, Mohammad, Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Jim Morrison, Kurt Cobain, etc.) or a work of fiction (like the Odyssey, Hamlet, The Lord of the Rings, the Godfather, Star Wars, or Donnie Darko), as long as it is meaningful in ways that aren't otherwise easily explained.

When you can see the deeper meaning, the underlying parallels between reality and the stories that serve as myths (Sean Hannity as Caiaphas? Bush as the captain of the Titanic, or maybe Paris of Troy? insanejester as the Wizard of Oz or maybe Odysseus?) then maybe you will begin to outgrow this reflexive nihilism and be able to speak with a little more insight.

Peace and Love

[campbell34]

the bible tends to say alot of shit... but it doesn't make it true bro...
if i wanted to live a life full of fairytales and hypocracy then i'd become a lawyer...

but go ahead, keep believen in the toothfairy, god, and st. nick... we all need somethen to get us through the day... if u need a long boring story to justify your existance, that's your life... don't try and push ur shit off on other people that don't want or need it...Well I don't believe in fairytales that is why I believe in the Bible. In 1866 a English Bible scholar stated that based on Bible prophecy, before Jesus Christ returns the Jews will be restored to their own land, and the enemies of Christ and the Jews will have gathered their armies from all parts of the world, and will have commenced the siege of Jerusalem. This statement was made 82 years before Israel became a nation. James Grant knew the Jews would return, and he knew they would control Jerusalem because he knew Bible prophecy. In the Old Testament it states that in the last days Jerusalems East Gate would remain sealed. It states that know one will be allowed to walk through that Gate until Jesus Christ returns. The Moslems found out about the prophecy and tried to break through. On both attemps they failed to do so. Just like the Bible said they would. Now there is another story in the Bible you might of heard of. It was when Moses took the Children of Israel through the Sea that God parted. Moses and the Children of Israel made it across but when the Pharaoh and His army tried to cross over God closed the waters over Pharaoh's army killing them all. Well as it turns out divers have now found the site and they are bringing up the remnants of Pharaoh's army. Divers are now finding coral incrusted chariot wheels and axils, human and horse bones all incrusted in the coral of the sea. Also they have found chisled in stone the ancient writings of what happened there. I don't believe in fairy tales, I believe in facts. The Bible states that in the last days men would not endure sound doctrine, but would rather believe a lie instead. Well the facts are there, if you are interested.

[juggla]

look in the mirror and in your mind your god.