Guru

[TheSkaEffect]

How does a guru come to you..or do you come to them? any information on gurus is greatly appreciated. thanks.

~Matt

[flmkpr]

your guru only comes to you when you let him and ultimatly your guru is you

[BlackBillBlake]

How does a guru come to you..or do you come to them? any information on gurus is greatly appreciated. thanks.

~Matt
The golden rule here is 'not all is gold that glitters'. There are genuine gurus around, but unfortunately, also many charlatans.
If you feel you need a guru, and your need is real, then that need may act like a magnet and bring someone to you, or to your attention.
If you enter the presence of a guru and feel something definite and spiritual, then they may have some teaching, or something to give which will be of benefit. If you feel nothing, it could be because you don't need what that guru has to give, or because they are not a genuine guru. So you have to rely on your own discrimination to see who is genuine and who is a faker.

But the first question to ask yourself is 'do I need a guru?'

[GanjaPrince]

"When you know how to listen, everybody is the guru" - Ram Dass


Everybody has the ultimate lesson to impart to you, listen, and they will lead you to what is you, what is one, what is now.

[BlackBillBlake]

GanjaPrince: "When you know how to listen, everybody is the guru" - Ram Dass
Maybe in a sense. But what about those who seek to incite others to violence and so on? Should we listen to them and regard them as gurus too?

If so, then why point to any particular individual and say they are a guru? Maharaji for example?
You might as well study the speeches of George Bush, or even Hitler.



Everybody has the ultimate lesson to impart to you, listen, and they will lead you to what is you, what is one, what is now.

Is there an ultimate lesson?

[gnrm23]

& don't fergit good ol' osho...
(anybody remember "rajneeshpuram" (formerly "antelope"), oregon?)

[gnrm23]

When US Attorney Charles Turner began to look into charges being brought against the Rajneeshpuram group a decade ago, members of the group conspired to murder him. Two members who were sentenced to five years in prison in 1995 for conspiracy to commit murder -- Sally-Anne Croft and Susan Hagan -- are now being released and deported to their native England. Other members who took part in the conspiracy were granted leniency for their testimonies against the others. Rajneeshpuram was a group in central Oregon that followed Indian guru Bhagwan Rajneesh. The charges Turner was investigating involved numerous sham marriages occuring in the group in order to bring more Rajneeshees into the US. Rajneesh was convicted of immigration fraud and deported, and died in 1990. The Rajneeshpuram group, in Antelope, OR, at one time had as many as 4,000 members, often armed, and Rajneesh had 93 Rolls Royces; but the group fell apart in 1985.



~
quote from one of his leading disciple from back in the day:
bhagwan IS god


(he was not the first, and will not be the last, to shear the sheep, as gurdjieff used to say...)

[sassure]

A guru is a teacher who assists others in seeking enlightenment. Of course now a guru can also mean simply "expert", but that is an aberration.....

I would add that a true guru can appear in most any guise during your life to guide you....your teacher does not have to wear white robes and sit cross-legged on blankets.....

[yyyesiam2]

if you are open enough, hitler can be your guru-in the sense that he could teach you many things about what one person is capable of, and what not to be.

[BlackBillBlake]

if you are open enough, hitler can be your guru-in the sense that he could teach you many things about what one person is capable of, and what not to be.
I think that's stretching things a little. The guru is supposed to be a self-realized being who can lead one to the Divine. Watching some clowns clown around may be amusing, may show what idiocy is, but will it help one realize?

[Bhaskar]

You may search for a guru, but in the end it is the guru who finds you. It is not always possible to use your discrimination, because the realised soul cannot be understood or recognized by the mind. It is only by the grace of the lord that the guru is found. Of course, this does not mean that you shut off your mind. It only means that you should not approach with an overly susp[icious mind.

[GanjaPrince]

EVERYBODY IS THE ULTIMATE PERFECT PURE ENERGY, literally, quantum physics proved it yeah.

You got to BE in the NOW
before you SEE it,

then what do we call it, it is too beautiful to be confined to words!


And the ultimate teacher, you must listen really close...

So thus, yes, every single being, even hitler, is the guru.

We can love all, and play and dance and sing. Its ok. YOU ALREADY LOVE EVERYONE.

I'm not saying, that we can't approve and disapprove of actions and behavoir... you know, I don't approve of any of the shit that Hitler did, yet on the other hand, that played a part in inspiring humanity to get the freaking clue, and jump into ONENESS, because why would the left hand hurt the right hand?

So Hitler "anti-christ" in a way, he was destined to show humanity that seperateness and hate doesn't work, you know, it is suicide. No wonder he blew his brains out, you know.


Of course this doesn't mean you don't have a form you hang out with as a spiritual practice that is a realized being or close to or whatever, that teachers you how to be WHO YOU ARE. Such a liberating form is also a GURU. Yet it is through that kind of guru that one is liberated from any single form and shines love equally upon all form in the formless divine comedy. WHEEE



And it's true, a cosmic joke, yes! Everybody is ONE BEING, and that ONE BEING, I trust RIGHT NOW, you know.

THROUGH OUR BEING and energy and VIBES, it will turn around, Just trust the flow and watch it go.

this is it, right here and now, the key to the energy, caught the wave of the now. wheeeee!

[Chodpa]

My first guru was Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. Now I hate him. However, back when I started treading the path I went to the Yogananda center in Pacific Palisades which was near the TM center, and I sat at the Yogananda place and prayed to find my guru and then got hungry and was walking towards the fast food joint and noticed that they gave free TM intro lectures fifteen minutes from that moment, so I went, I learned TM and then went to Maharishi's sollege, and then got disenchanted with Maharishi, and was attracted to tantra.

I studied Sri Vidya and the Dashmahavidyas, but as no teachers were anywhere I looked into the Buddhist tantras for correlations. Then I started at the top receiving the highest Dzogchen empowerments in the Nyingma lineage and then went back and covered basics.

Then I finally started going to the local centers when I had more confidence and found some really special gurus. I had seen the most emminent like the Dalai lama, Penor Rinpoche, and so on. Now I am happier with less known gurus who have time for my individual questions.

Often I won't be really interested in even seeing them but I'll go anyway to support the group and then I'll receive teachings on things I forget I wanted to ask. It's pretty profound really. Gurus are more than teachers as they teach you to remember how special and meaningful you really are, not the opposite. That is, they don't suppress you or make you feel like shit and force you to do things. They lead you with a really really long leash, so that you don't even know until you catch up to them. Then you see that they were always there. It's pretty beautiful.

The greatest guru in the world is your own upaguru, your own mind. It is through your mind that you find any guru. It also is through your mind that you receive the teachings. Finally it is through your mind that you understand them and practice. One should strive to understand that upaguru.

It starts like playing guitar listening to your favorite band, readin the sheet music, and practicing until you get it down. Then the song is within. Then onto the next. That's the guru.

[Bhaskar]

Chodpa... why hate anyone? Surely you must have caught on, somewhere on the extensive spiritual path you speak of, that hatred is a futile and wasteful effort, using up energies better saved for bettering yourself.

[BlackBillBlake]

Chodpa... why hate anyone? Surely you must have caught on, somewhere on the extensive spiritual path you speak of, that hatred is a futile and wasteful effort, using up energies better saved for bettering yourself.
You're absolutely right Bhaskar, hate does nothing, it is a waste of time that poisons the person who hates.
But I can understand also that there are a number of false gurus around, charlatans or even worse, who exploit followers for their own ends. Those who have been thus exploited often feel anger and so on. But the thing is to move on in such an instance.

[Bhaskar]

This is why often Gurus tell disciples not to get attached to the person, but to what they learnt there. If perchance, one day the student gets disillutioned by the teacher, it shouldn't sour all wisdom accumulated over the past. After all, even fake Gurus have some geuinely good advice, otherwise they would neve rbe able to set up shop, right?

[BlackBillBlake]

After all, even fake Gurus have some geuinely good advice, otherwise they would neve rbe able to set up shop, right?
I suppose there might be cases where that applies, but in others, eg the phoney ISKCON gurus, it doesn't, because they got to be 'gurus' simply by dint of being members of a big organization, and arguably, because they acted fraudulently in ever claiming their positions.
In some other cases, a person with some charisma or even occult power may gain followers - they may seek followers not because they can lead them to liberation and enlightenment, but for ends of their own. They may seriously mislead people, and at worse, it can descend into Manson family type black magic. So there needs to be a warning on who one allows to have an influence over one's beliefs etc.

[Bhaskar]

In the end, we have to take responsibility for our own lives. I was mislead, is never an excuse. I am responsible for the choices I make and the paths I walk and who I choose to follow.

Even the bad ISKON people, Im sure they tell their followers to be pure, tell truth, etc.

[BlackBillBlake]

In the end, we have to take responsibility for our own lives. I was mislead, is never an excuse. I am responsible for the choices I make and the paths I walk and who I choose to follow.

Even the bad ISKON people, Im sure they tell their followers to be pure, tell truth, etc.To answer the last point about the phoney ISKCON gurus first - I'm sad to say you are very wrong. Some of them actively encouraged their followers to engage in criminal activities. At least one was into sexual abuse.

But in general I agree that ultimately we are responsible for our own choices, although there is an element of Indian philosophy which suggests that we're not.
However, it is also true that many people have a longing for the Divine and yet they lack knowlwdge or even very sound judgement. If someone falls prey to a phoney guru they can't really be blamed for that. It can be very hard, esp. for a beginner to tell if someone is genuine or not. The fault in such a case lies more with the deciever than the decieved I think.

"sometimes Satan comes as a man of peace"

Bob Dylan.

[Bhaskar]

I dont know all that much about the ISKON scandals so I will not engage in debate on that point. Even if such people do tell people good thigns I dont know that it would be effective.

[BlackBillBlake]

I dont know all that much about the ISKON scandals so I will not engage in debate on that point. Even if such people do tell people good thigns I dont know that it would be effective.
ISKCON don't want you to know!
I've had experience with this though - personally, when I met Bhagavan Gurudeva, who I decided almost immediately was a faker, and who subsequently went to jail for fiddling the books.
Also, a friend and business associate was previously an ISKCON devotee for a number of years, and he ended up as a close personal assistant to one of the 11 bogus gurus. He has told me things which are completely sickening.
For anyone who wants a brief overview of the misdeeds of these people check this out

http://mitglied.lycos.de/gbc/black/bogus4.htm

I think you are right in saying that anything such a person said would have only very limited value. Prabhupada (who was himself very limited)used to say that milk is pure, but if it is touched by the lips of a serpent, it becomes like poison. To some degree, I'm sure he was right about that,(metaphorically) even if he was wrong on many other counts.
Only a truly realized person can help us to progress spiritually. My own feeling is that often, certain types of guru can actually hold the seeker back.

[Bhaskar]

If they hold you back, they are not Gurus. Robes do not make the man, nor do titles create qualification.

[BlackBillBlake]

If they hold you back, they are not Gurus. Robes do not make the man, nor do titles create qualification.
Again Bhaskar I agree - and as Jesus said we should beware of wolves in sheep's clothing.

But it seems to me that a true guru is one who will set you free - perhaps one mark of those who are not real gurus is that often they seek to bind their followers, to control and manipulate them.

Another question is why do some people get ensnared by false teachers or gurus? Perhaps there is some inner reason?

[Bhaskar]

Karma.

[BlackBillBlake]

Karma.
OK. But I don't think one can blame the victims.

It seems to me that the phoney gurus attract people who are looking for a neatly 'pre-packaged' solution to life's problems. I don't think such exists.But because of the way modern capitalist society works, that seems to be what some people want. They are conditioned to want everything thus packaged. They want spirituality to ba another 'product'.
They are often people with unresolved emotional issues, people who feel like misfits etc. Theses false teachers seem to offer a way out, and in a world like this, so filled with confusion and contrary indications, it is hardly surprising that some get duped or worse.

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

It seems to me that the phoney gurus attract people who are looking for a neatly 'pre-packaged' solution to life's problems. I don't think such exists.But because of the way modern capitalist society works, that seems to be what some people want. They are conditioned to want everything thus packaged. They want spirituality to ba another 'product'.
They are often people with unresolved emotional issues, people who feel like misfits etc. Theses false teachers seem to offer a way out, and in a world like this, so filled with confusion and contrary indications, it is hardly surprising that some get duped or worse.
Yes...and I don't know about anyother country...but its really easy to pull off scams like that in the US...because it is the nature of most of our people (not just now but throughout history)...to want and search for any "get...quick"...we have "get thin quick" diets..."get rich quick" scams (why do you think so many Americans are litigation happy? Also, for a historical one...California Gold rush...actually some of this country was settled on "get rich quick"...the settlers in Jamestown, VA in 1607 came trying to find gold)...and also the "get God quick" preachers and teachers in each and every religion... so, I can def. see why some one would take such a powerful group such as ISKCON (which was also popular) and exploit it in one of these "get God quick" schemes....because people who want the results without the work would go for it....