? just wondering.....um

[Doors_67]

have u always not believed in God's existence, or did u just wake up one day and decide that God's not real. have u had the chance to experience all that God has given us, or do u hate life or something else. let me ask u this, do u love ur family, ur friends? if so, then u should love God for giving u the ones u love.im not telling u what to do, and what to believe, and how to go about ur every day lives, im just saying what i feel. and i know im going to get alot of criticism and hateful feedback, but thats okay, i dont mind. speak ur mind, let me have it, hold nothing back, because if u bite ur tounge, then it wont get said, so say it, write it, whatever, its all good. "whats so funny bout peace, love, and understanding"

[Shane99X]

have u always not believed in God's existence, or did u just wake up one day and decide that God's not real. have u had the chance to experience all that God has given us, or do u hate life or something else. let me ask u this, do u love ur family, ur friends? if so, then u should love God for giving u the ones u love.im not telling u what to do, and what to believe, and how to go about ur every day lives, im just saying what i feel. and i know im going to get alot of criticism and hateful feedback, but thats okay, i dont mind. speak ur mind, let me have it, hold nothing back, because if u bite ur tounge, then it wont get said, so say it, write it, whatever, its all good. "whats so funny bout peace, love, and understanding"
How "big" of you...

[Granolahead]

Well with me I grew up in a strong Christian household, went to church every week, got confirmed, yadda yadda.............anyways until I was about 13. Like everyone growing up I started become a little more independant and started thinking for myself and over time God just didnt seem possible and nothing in Christianity satified me. Now Im a Pantheist/Atheist (Yes you can be both, I dont believe in any god but am connected with nature and the universe in a physical and non-physical manner) and I have learned a lot from Buddhist teachings as well. I dont beleive in heaven ar hell. I look to myself for answers and have never been happier or satisfied. And yes i do love my family and friends. I love everything on this planet and beyond. You dont need a god to love, have good morals, and be a good person......my dads a christian minister and even he agrees on that (and yes he does respect my beliefs). We just need to respect each other and all our differences and beliefs.

[Sera Michele]

have u always not believed in God's existence, or did u just wake up one day and decide that God's not real. have u had the chance to experience all that God has given us, or do u hate life or something else. let me ask u this, do u love ur family, ur friends? if so, then u should love God for giving u the ones u love.im not telling u what to do, and what to believe, and how to go about ur every day lives, im just saying what i feel. and i know im going to get alot of criticism and hateful feedback, but thats okay, i dont mind. speak ur mind, let me have it, hold nothing back, because if u bite ur tounge, then it wont get said, so say it, write it, whatever, its all good. "whats so funny bout peace, love, and understanding"
It is hard to grow up in western culture and not be bombarded with god.

I believed in god like I believed in santa claus. Then I grew up, was able to actually think with a mind of my own, practice some common sense, do my own research, and make an informed decision about my beliefs.

And yes, I love my family and friends. I just don't believe, unlike you, in any sort of god that needs, wants, or even cares about my thanks for that. I thank my family for being as good and kind as they are.

And to think I (or anyone) would hate life just because I don't believe in god is a huge assumption to make. And I have experienced the world, and some amazing things, and plan to continue to. It's silly to think that a person is somehow abnormal simply because they don't believe in the christian god.

A study on religious memes, and a general study of religious history should give you some perspective on what religion is, how and why it developed, and why humans get sucked into such beliefs. It is always interesting to take an objective look on our reality. You can learn a lot.

[Hikaru Zero]

Well with me I grew up in a strong Christian household, went to church every week, got confirmed, yadda yadda.............anyways until I was about 13. Like everyone growing up I started become a little more independant and started thinking for myself and over time God just didnt seem possible and nothing in Christianity satified me. Now Im a Pantheist/Atheist (Yes you can be both, I dont believe in any god but am connected with nature and the universe in a physical and non-physical manner) and I have learned a lot from Buddhist teachings as well. I dont beleive in heaven ar hell. I look to myself for answers and have never been happier or satisfied. And yes i do love my family and friends. I love everything on this planet and beyond. You dont need a god to love, have good morals, and be a good person......my dads a christian minister and even he agrees on that (and yes he does respect my beliefs). We just need to respect each other and all our differences and beliefs.

Granolahead

Pantheist/Atheist? There is little difference between the two, you are correct.

However, you say you are connected with nature both physically and nonphysically.

Pantheism only allows a physical connection, and it does not provide charity to the idea that the universe or nature is sentient in any way, shape, or form.

If you are looking for sentience in nature, you might consider:

Panentheism (note the additional "en")

A term coined to describe pantheism and sentience as one.

Hikaru is a Gaian-panentheist himself. =) He thinks this is the term you are looking for (if not, please correct him).

How "big" of you...

Very well said, Shane99X. Doors_67 has some bold convictions to make the assumptions he has.

have u always not believed in God's existence, or did u just wake up one day and decide that God's not real.

Hikaru believes in Gaia, the spirit of the universe. Gaia exists in few ways similar to your God. Hikaru was baptized a Christian, raised a Christian, and confirmed a Christian, and growing up with a Christian family and going to a Christian church, he saw many hypocracies and flaws in Christianity.

have u had the chance to experience all that God has given us

Hikaru is only 17 years old, and hopefully has another 50 years of sentience to experience as much as he can. Certainly, unless you are on your death bed, you haven't experienced everything you had the chance to either.

or do u hate life or something else.

Well, Hikaru loves life now, as it's been gradually improving in quality for him. He will say, however, that he does indeed dislike something: People who look down on him with no provoking reason, especially because of his religion. People just like you. Friend.

let me ask u this, do u love ur family, ur friends?

Hikaru loves his ability to type "you" and "your" correctly, for one.

For two, no, Hikaru was quite abused by his Christian father, and was injusticed and blackmailed by his Christian mother. He has good reason to see hypocracy in the Christian way of life.

His friends, yes, Hikaru thinks VERY highly of his friends, and is prepared to go to even the lengths of taking a bullet to save most of them. His friends have helped him through his toughest times in life (particularly in dealing with his father), and it's his opinion that he owes his collective friends his life. Few other people could say the same.

if so, then u should love God for giving u the ones u love.

Hikaru does his best not just to love Gaia, but to try and repair the damage that humanity has caused her by rejecting her and walking astray, laying waste to her creations, such as the Earth. He percieves that in helping humanity share and repair the Earth instead of laying waste to it as we do now, he may in some way do Gaia a justice and begin to repay his debt to her.

im not telling u what to do, and what to believe, and how to go about ur every day lives, im just saying what i feel.

And yet directly above, you state we SHOULD love God, and you question our ways of life. Well, Hikaru does not know about you, friend, but his Christian family screwed him over and treated him like a meager child slave at times, and his father beat him, and as much as he tries to keep an open mind to Christians and their God, he fails to see much worth in Christianity at all, ESPECIALLY because morons such as yourself -- who contradict themselves at every turn, as you just have here -- raised him. So you, friend, can take your beliefs, which you claim everyone SHOULD follow, and quite frankly, shove them right back up the ass you pulled them from!

and i know im going to get alot of criticism and hateful feedback, but thats okay, i dont mind.

Glad to see that you had the sixth sense to see this coming.

speak ur mind, let me have it, hold nothing back, because if u bite ur tounge, then it wont get said, so say it, write it, whatever, its all good. "whats so funny bout peace, love, and understanding"

And as Shane99X already said before, "how big of you."

Hikaru suggests that you take yourself and your condescending kind and go drown yourselves in a gutter! You, your God, and his fan club are the people he has to blame for the shit he had to put up with as a child, and were he in God's position right now, you all might just find yourselves in a Hell filled with more fire and pain than even your God could imagine. Perhaps you should thank your God for that not being the case, hmm?

Hikaru spits at your feet. Have a nice day. :$

Hikaru knows many might look down at his response to Doors_67, here, as it is likely uncalled for, and quite rude, by his own admission. He suggests that those who would criticize him come back some other time, when THEY have felt the abuse he did as a child ... as then, they may have the capability to understand Hikaru's response.

[Granolahead]

Granolahead

Pantheist/Atheist? There is little difference between the two, you are correct.

However, you say you are connected with nature both physically and nonphysically.

Pantheism only allows a physical connection, and it does not provide charity to the idea that the universe or nature is sentient in any way, shape, or form.

If you are looking for sentience in nature, you might consider:

Panentheism (note the additional "en")

A term coined to describe pantheism and sentience as one.

Hikaru is a Gaian-panentheist himself. =) He thinks this is the term you are looking for (if not, please correct him).No Ive looked into Panentheism and its definatly not that. What I was refering to as non-physical was all those energies and things that exist that we cant physically sense. I guess what im refering to is things like your "mind" which i believe is just a form of energy but we have no comprehension or way to explain it, but yet we know its there. Its those sorts of non-physical things im talking about. Anyways maybe gaian pantheism would be correct however i dont beleive Gaia as a sentient being but rather a lot of organisms collectivly making it seem like one. Haha sorry if this doesnt make sense, this was hard to explain

[Hikaru Zero]

No Ive looked into Panentheism and its definatly not that. What I was refering to as non-physical was all those energies and things that exist that we cant physically sense. I guess what im refering to is things like your "mind" which i believe is just a form of energy but we have no comprehension or way to explain it, but yet we know its there. Its those sorts of non-physical things im talking about. Anyways maybe gaian pantheism would be correct however i dont beleive Gaia as a sentient being but rather a lot of organisms collectivly making it seem like one. Haha sorry if this doesnt make sense, this was hard to explain

Ah, no, Hikaru must apologize for assuming you meant panentheism. =P

I suppose I believe in Gaia, though, because I believe I've actually experienced her presence ... otherwise, I would simply be agnostic. =)

[Granolahead]

Ah, no, Hikaru must apologize for assuming you meant panentheism. =P

I suppose I believe in Gaia, though, because I believe I've actually experienced her presence ... otherwise, I would simply be agnostic. =)
Thats cool man even though I dont believe Gaia as living Ive read up on the theory and a lot of it makes total sense. Peace =)

[atropine]

have u always not believed in God's existence, or did u just wake up one day and decide that God's not real. have u had the chance to experience all that God has given us, or do u hate life or something else. let me ask u this, do u love ur family, ur friends? if so, then u should love God for giving u the ones u love.im not telling u what to do, and what to believe, and how to go about ur every day lives, im just saying what i feel. and i know im going to get alot of criticism and hateful feedback, but thats okay, i dont mind. speak ur mind, let me have it, hold nothing back, because if u bite ur tounge, then it wont get said, so say it, write it, whatever, its all good. "whats so funny bout peace, love, and understanding"
i believed in god once, only because it was crammed down my throat and if i questioned my schools denomination id be punished for it.. but after 4years of shit i decided to see for myself what the world had to offer instead of believing what i was forced to. i dont love god for giving me family and friends because i dont believe he did, and you have no proof he did. bible this, miracle that. the bottom line is, there is not one ounce of proof of god, and unless he falls from the sky, there never will.

[Hikaru Zero]

i believed in god once, only because it was crammed down my throat and if i questioned my schools denomination id be punished for it.. but after 4years of shit i decided to see for myself what the world had to offer instead of believing what i was forced to. i dont love god for giving me family and friends because i dont believe he did, and you have no proof he did. bible this, miracle that. the bottom line is, there is not one ounce of proof of god, and unless he falls from the sky, there never will.

You know, just for a good laugh, I'd like to be walking to class, and to see this dude with long brown hair and a nice beard/goatee wearing a white robe that said "God" on it, or something, just fall off a building, and land, and get up and dust himself off, and then walk away. =P

[atropine]

heheh good call.. would he have cool sandles too?

[Hikaru Zero]

heheh good call.. would he have cool sandles too?

Most definately. And a wooden staff with a button that you can press to make the staff glow. =P

[atropine]

and disco god on the back of the robe that lights up?

[Kandahar]

have u always not believed in God's existence, or did u just wake up one day and decide that God's not real.Well, the lack of belief should be everyone's default position, so in that sense I guess I've never believed in God. I didn't really figure out that God definitely didn't exist until I actually examined the "evidence" (or more accurately, the lack thereof). The idea of just "deciding that God's not real" is silly...atheists and agnostics generally use REASON to reach their conclusions, unlike Christians.

have u had the chance to experience all that God has given us, or do u hate life or something else. let me ask u this, do u love ur family, ur friends? And Christians wonder why so many atheists are averse to the idea of religion...wow.


if so, then u should love God for giving u the ones u love.im not telling u what to do, and what to believe, and how to go about ur every day lives, im just saying what i feel.
Putting that disclaimer at the end doesn't change the fact that you obviously ARE telling people what to do and believe.

[Hikaru Zero]

Putting that disclaimer at the end doesn't change the fact that you obviously ARE telling people what to do and believe.

This is our point exactly.

The disclaimer changes nothing,
But that is not true.
The disclaimer changes nothing about your point, no, but ...
Instead it changes our views of you,
Our views of what you are imposing on us,
And we see PERFECTLY all idiosyncracies,
All weaknesses, failures, and hypocracies,
That you live your life by and believe in.

The day that you claim we "just woke up and decided God didn't exist" is the same day that we just woke up and decided that you were a moron.

[Kharakov]

The disclaimer changes nothing about your point, no, but ...
Instead it changes our views of you,Good.
Our views of what you are imposing on us,If you oppose what is being explained, it is fine, although there is no need.
And we see PERFECTLY all idiosyncracies,
All weaknesses, failures, and hypocracies,
That you live your life by and believe in.This you do not, or you would not make false claims against this way of life.

Do you still hold the belief that your actions are not the actions of God?

[Doors_67]

oh man, u guys i am so sorry, i was like high or somethin was wrong with me when i wrote that shit. i am really sorry, i didnt mean that crap man, im just fucked up in the head. so um keep believeing in what ur believing and um wait no, damn now im telling u what to do, um sorry for saying that. so keep hope alive, damn i did it again. um i wont say ne further, uh bye

[thumontico]

is it possible that a theist's single marijuana experience opened the mind to atheism?

wouldnt be the first

[Hikaru Zero]

oh man, u guys i am so sorry, i was like high or somethin was wrong with me when i wrote that shit. i am really sorry, i didnt mean that crap man, im just fucked up in the head. so um keep believeing in what ur believing and um wait no, damn now im telling u what to do, um sorry for saying that. so keep hope alive, damn i did it again. um i wont say ne further, uh bye

Alrighty then. Hikaru just has one question for you ...

If the little "mistake," as it were, in your text here, is honest ...

Wouldn't the backspace key seem a little more appropriate to use?

... and is he the only one that detects what may or may not be sarcasm here?

[Hikaru Zero]

This you do not, or you would not make false claims against this way of life.

Do you still hold the belief that your actions are not the actions of God?
in reference to seeing Doors' religious flaws.

Kharakov:

You are right, Hikaru will retract that statement, and replace it with this:

It brings into plain and clear view one of the surmised many hypocracies of your religion.

Regardless, the former and latter parts of Hikaru's post still stand. With emphasis on the latter.

[BlackGuardXIII]

Hikaru knows many might look down at his response to Doors_67, here, as it is likely uncalled for, and quite rude, by his own admission. He suggests that those who would criticize him come back some other time, when THEY have felt the abuse he did as a child ... as then, they may have the capability to understand Hikaru's response.

A ha.... now I see it. Hikky, you and my fiancee do have much in common, and have similar reasons for being so wise at such tender ages. I would deduce that the folks that are belligerantly self righteous, condescending, narrowminded, cocky, non-compassionate, irrational, uncompromising, and unloving to anyone who disagrees with them probably had a silver spoon up their ass all their life, and had mommy and daddy there to always bail them out whenever they almost had to think there way out of a jam.
What do you think, young sage?

[BlackGuardXIII]

i believed in god once, only because it was crammed down my throat and if i questioned my schools denomination id be punished for it.. but after 4years of shit i decided to see for myself what the world had to offer instead of believing what i was forced to. i dont love god for giving me family and friends because i dont believe he did, and you have no proof he did. bible this, miracle that. the bottom line is, there is not one ounce of proof of god, and unless he falls from the sky, there never will.
I have witnessed very clear and unmistakably real miracles. You have not. I am sure that there are things you have experienced that I have not. So can you state with total conviction that just becuz you didn't experience it, no one else did either?

Also, if you do believe that is the case,( I cannot help but believe in miracles, obviously.), then, though we differ, I accept your beliefs as true, real, and equally valid to any truths I have.

[BlackGuardXIII]

Alrighty then. Hikaru just has one question for you ...

If the little "mistake," as it were, in your text here, is honest ...

Wouldn't the backspace key seem a little more appropriate to use?

... and is he the only one that detects what may or may not be sarcasm here?
I am quite certain that what you are picking up is in fact sarcasm, which I loved to use for my entire youth, and found it hilarious. Now I find it to be useless, with no redeeming value, and its main purpose is the re-enforcing of the users own delusions of grandeur. Sort of a 'I am wittier than you' kind of thang.

[strawpuppy]

have u always not believed in God's existence, or did u just wake up one day and decide that God's not real. have u had the chance to experience all that God has given us, or do u hate life or something else. let me ask u this, do u love ur family, ur friends? if so, then u should love God for giving u the ones u love.im not telling u what to do, and what to believe, and how to go about ur every day lives, im just saying what i feel. and i know im going to get alot of criticism and hateful feedback, but thats okay, i dont mind. speak ur mind, let me have it, hold nothing back, because if u bite ur tounge, then it wont get said, so say it, write it, whatever, its all good. "whats so funny bout peace, love, and understanding"
No, like most other westerners I was brought up on the bible.....Then I just could not take the guilt, uncertainty and contradiction any more....so I set of on a very long quest for knowledge....

Gave up God, now seems he will just not go away....these days I seem to liken him to a shadow that dissapears when the light of investigation shines on it....

There is much religious people do not know about their religions, and I wish the knowledge was "common" knowledge, but it is'nt......

So here I am, still looking....for knowledge...for God...

[BlackGuardXIII]

oh man, u guys i am so sorry, i was like high or somethin was wrong with me when i wrote that shit. i am really sorry, i didnt mean that crap man, im just fucked up in the head. so um keep believeing in what ur believing and um wait no, damn now im telling u what to do, um sorry for saying that. so keep hope alive, damn i did it again. um i wont say ne further, uh bye
I command you to change your personal spiritual beliefs immediately, and believe exactly whatever I decide is the correct interpretation of whichever one of the multitude of scriptures in the world that I say is the ONE TRUE RELIGION.
If you refuse, I am compelled to warn you, the most hideous tortures that the worst criminal minds that ever lived will be enacted upon your person for no less than a googleplex to the power of a googleplex millenia. That is a fairly long time, I might add.

Oh shit, I just posted that sarcasm is useless and ego centric, what a fuck up I am. Doh!

[BlackGuardXIII]

No, like most other westerners I was brought up on the bible.....Then I just could not take the guilt, uncertainty and contradiction any more....so I set of on a very long quest for knowledge....

Gave up God, now seems he will just not go away....these days I seem to liken him to a shadow that dissapears when the light of investigation shines on it....

There is much religious people do not know about their religions, and I wish the knowledge was "common" knowledge, but it is'nt......

So here I am, still looking....for knowledge...for God...
Well, that makes two of us, I like the mirage-like quality you describe, it is very appropos in my view. Just when you think you are going to pop open the door and see the answer......everything stops, and it says....to be continued next week, stay tuned.

[strawpuppy]

Blackguard, at the moment my mind has just learnt of a new way of looking at things....I was happily plodding along thinking in the begining there was nothing but empty time and space and something else must have been there, like a positive absolute, to start the ball rolling so to speak....was thinking something like consciousness/intelligent/awareness/God as an absolute...then I read about some chap's other thoughts...

He said that most of space is empty....and possibly, the empty bit is full, and the matter is negative (void)...that would make us virtual beings(would'nt it?)

Just thought I'd chuck the idea in to see what you think of it....


L

[BlackGuardXIII]

Blackguard, at the moment my mind has just learnt of a new way of looking at things....I was happily plodding along thinking in the begining there was nothing but empty time and space and something else must have been there, like a positive absolute, to start the ball rolling so to speak....was thinking something like consciousness/intelligent/awareness/God as an absolute...then I read about some chap's other thoughts...

He said that most of space is empty....and possibly, the empty bit is full, and the matter is negative (void)...that would make us virtual beings(would'nt it?)

Just thought I'd chuck the idea in to see what you think of it....


LCan't say it ain't so. I have so many possible options. Matter is detuned light, that has had its frequency lowered by gravity.
Or that gravity, magnetism, and electricity are the same force, just that gravity is the single force, magnetism is it squared, and electricity is it cubed.

Dark matter theory is much like what you describe, and I like what I have read about it.

I see no absolute time and location together, it is one or the other, you can predict when but not where, or where but not when, but not both. According to quantum physicists subatomic particle research.

It could all just be in your head.
Time may be an illusion, and the present is all there is, which I believe.
all matter is transient, impermanent, and everchanging, so to me, Spirit is the only reality.

In the presence of eternity, mountains are as transient as the clouds. Ingersoll

[strawpuppy]

So where have you made sense of it so far?

"so to me, Spirit is the only reality"

where is/what is.............the spirit, as you percieve it?

thanks

strawpup

[Kharakov]

It brings into plain and clear view one of the surmised many hypocracies of your religion. I like the use of the word surmised. <tips hat, raises glass, walks outside for a cigarette>

[Hikaru Zero]

A ha.... now I see it. Hikky, you and my fiancee do have much in common, and have similar reasons for being so wise at such tender ages. I would deduce that the folks that are belligerantly self righteous, condescending, narrowminded, cocky, non-compassionate, irrational, uncompromising, and unloving to anyone who disagrees with them probably had a silver spoon up their ass all their life, and had mommy and daddy there to always bail them out whenever they almost had to think there way out of a jam.
What do you think, young sage?

BlackGuardXIII

What does Hikaru think?

Well, Hikaru can see your point,
But he must disagree, at least with the case of his parents,
Hikaru's father had the same kind of father that Hikaru had;
Though Hikaru attributed his father's becoming what he is today,
To sheer stupidity and mental weakness.
Hikaru's father is the only non-retarded person he has met
(With no offense to the retarded!)
Who incorrectly answers the question,
"What is six times six?"

But, for the most part, your insight seems both plausible and probable for most cases. Hikaru just wishes to become everything that his father isn't (a rocket scientist, a computer programmer, a "dad," (as opposed to a father), etc.

I am quite certain that what you are picking up is in fact sarcasm, which I loved to use for my entire youth, and found it hilarious. Now I find it to be useless, with no redeeming value, and its main purpose is the re-enforcing of the users own delusions of grandeur. Sort of a 'I am wittier than you' kind of thang.

Sarcasm and satire have their purposes ... though they are generally used to expose the flaws and hypocracies of other people's beliefs or convictions, by mocking the other person.

Sarcasm has no place here though.

[Kharakov]

Hikaru knows many might look down at his response to Doors_67, here, as it is likely uncalled for, and quite rude, by his own admission. He suggests that those who would criticize him come back some other time, when THEY have felt the abuse he did as a child ... as then, they may have the capability to understand Hikaru's response.I think it is necessary for people to have a similar basis of experience in order to understand why people think as they do. The view that winning arguments is 'good' (or fun) will draw people into an ever deeper understanding of life as they seek to consolidate and strengthen their arguments. The strongest argument is the truth. Just another path/ step in the road to enlightenment.

I would deduce that the folks that are belligerantly self righteous, condescending, narrowminded, cocky, non-compassionate, irrational, uncompromising, and unloving to anyone who disagrees with them probably had a silver spoon up their ass all their life, and had mommy and daddy there to always bail them out whenever they almost had to think there way out of a jam.
God always bails me out when I think or do something unpleasant. Thank God for my silver spoon...

[Kharakov]

Sort of a 'I am wittier than you' kind of thang.Be careful not to outwit your self.

[Kharakov]

I command you to change your personal spiritual beliefs immediately, and believe exactly whatever I decide is the correct interpretation of whichever one of the multitude of scriptures in the world that I say is the ONE TRUE RELIGION.
If you refuse, I am compelled to warn you, the most hideous tortures that the worst criminal minds that ever lived will be enacted upon your person for no less than a googleplex to the power of a googleplex millenia. That is a fairly long time, I might add.To settle for anything less than the truth is hell. I mean, if the truth is the most beautiful thing that your mind can behold, then believing anything less sucks.

[SingflowerCat]

BlackGuardXIII:It could all just be in your head.
Time may be an illusion, and the present is all there is, which I believe.
all matter is transient, impermanent, and everchanging, so to me, Spirit is the only reality.I think all of the other theories you listed are entertaining and plausible. I have a hard time with this one though... Can you explain it a little more? If the present is all there is, was one minute ago when I made myself lunch and spilled water on the counter a non-existent event? The water's still there... I need to go clean it up!!!:-) so how'd it get there? I can see the water and it can be empirically proven to be there, and my memory remembers how it happened...I don't know I'm getting stuck on this one...

I also believe that "all matter is transient, impermanent, and everchanging" and Spirit may well be the only reality since I think spirit is all around and in us... any further thoughts on this theory?


"Spirit", I think, is the One Constant that holds in its palm Matter which is everchanging...

[BlackGuardXIII]

BlackGuardXIII:I think all of the other theories you listed are entertaining and plausible. I have a hard time with this one though... Can you explain it a little more? If the present is all there is, was one minute ago when I made myself lunch and spilled water on the counter a non-existent event? The water's still there... I need to go clean it up!!!:-) so how'd it get there? I can see the water and it can be empirically proven to be there, and my memory remembers how it happened...I don't know I'm getting stuck on this one...

I also believe that "all matter is transient, impermanent, and everchanging" and Spirit may well be the only reality since I think spirit is all around and in us... any further thoughts on this theory?


"Spirit", I think, is the One Constant that holds in its palm Matter which is everchanging...
" God exists in eternity. The only point where eternity meets time is in the present. The present is the only time there is. "



Marianne Williamson

[J_Lazarus]

have u always not believed in God's existence, or did u just wake up one day and decide that God's not real. have u had the chance to experience all that God has given us, or do u hate life or something else. let me ask u this, do u love ur family, ur friends? if so, then u should love God for giving u the ones u love.im not telling u what to do, and what to believe, and how to go about ur every day lives, im just saying what i feel. and i know im going to get alot of criticism and hateful feedback, but thats okay, i dont mind. speak ur mind, let me have it, hold nothing back, because if u bite ur tounge, then it wont get said, so say it, write it, whatever, its all good. "whats so funny bout peace, love, and understanding" Well, I won't be spending much time thrashing you, but I would certainly recommend you read a thing or two, so you'd be able to understand atheism correctly and not present positions such as this where it is necessary to give you a 101 course.

Firstly, many atheists have not always been atheists. Those who have are a lucky select few. I myself am not one of them. Rather, many atheists are what you call apostates - having been part of a particular religion, and then finally at one time rejecting it.

The rejection is hardly a "wake up one day and reject God" situation. Many of the testimonies of apostates - including mine, include stories of long turmoil, confusion, suffering, and heartbreak. It took me a long time to finally admit to myself that God does not exist, and that I was no longer a theist.

Hating life is not a precondition of atheism. If you go to atheist websites, you'll see none of them are anti-life - but rather very much the opposite. Most atheists are materialists, and as such, life here on earth becomes far more precious than in the Christian worldview. Most atheists love life - even more so than many theists.

And no - I don't need to love God at all because of my loved ones. I do not believe that God exists, and hence I do not think that God has anything to do with my loved ones. You may think he does, but the burden is on your shoulders to prove it. I don't see how you can, either, considering a being with such a nature could never exist in the first place:

http://www.strongatheism.com/atheology/materialist.html
http://www.strongatheism.com/atheology/correctchoice.html
http://www.strongatheism.com/atheology/apathetic.html
http://www.strongatheism.com/atheology/moralprinciples.html
http://www.strongatheism.com/atheology/divinecreation.html
http://www.strongatheism.com/atheology/transcendencepersonhood.html
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/theodore_drange/incompatible.html
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/michael_martin/martin-frame/
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/quentin_smith/causation.html
http://ffrf.org/fttoday/1997/august97/barker.html
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/raymond_bradley/moral.html

Looks like you've got quite a bit of work to do. Not to mention you'll have a hard time proving that god-talk is meaningful in the first place:

http://www.strongatheism.com/atheology/noncognitivism.html
http://www.strongatheism.com/atheology/conifer.html
http://www.strongatheism.com/atheology/processbased.html

- Laz

[Razorofoccam]

" God exists in eternity. The only point where eternity meets time is in the present. The present is the only time there is. "

BlackGuard

Excellent.
The only NOW...
Is the NOW
There is no past.
It is a memory and a reading of that which once was.
There is no future,
But for the dreaming of the MIND.

The only time there is.The only reality. Is NOW.

Those who say that all time is a film..and we just play our parts.
Say so because they think that sounds cool.
That that absolves them of responsibillity...
Determinism and responsibillity are interweaved...
Determinists dont want responsibillity
Thats why they are determinists.
But Time/motion just keeps moving....
Directed by natural law..And free will...


Occam

[thumontico]

Occam speaks the truth.

[BlackGuardXIII]

There is no past.
It is a memory and a reading of that which once was.
There is no future,
But for the dreaming of the MIND.

The only time there is.The only reality. Is NOW.

Those who say that all time is a film..and we just play our parts.
Say so because they think that sounds cool.
That that absolves them of responsibillity...
Determinism and responsibillity are interweaved...
Determinists dont want responsibillity
Thats why they are determinists.
But Time/motion just keeps moving....
Directed by natural law..And free will...


OccamI take a slightly eccentric position on the nature of time, and it is just an idea that answers some questions I have.
That idea is that time is simultaneous. It is not linear, nor circular, but exists all-at-once. All of history, all of the future, exists now. My reason for theorizing this is the precognitive dreams I have had, and the attempt to explain how that kind of phenomena is possible. I now have two other possibilities. A Christian friend of mine pointed out that the bible says the number of days of our lives were recorded in the book long before we were born, which could mean that all my decisions are known by god, and my whole life is already in his records. (this is not my favorite explanation). I believe you gave me the other. That all of my reality exists within my own mind, so that obviously, I would be likely to know what I had planned for myself in that case. This is my second favorite explanation.
What is your view, Occam?

[Razorofoccam]

I take a slightly eccentric position on the nature of time, and it is just an idea that answers some questions I have.
That idea is that time is simultaneous. It is not linear, nor circular, but exists all-at-once. All of history, all of the future, exists now. My reason for theorizing this is the precognitive dreams I have had, and the attempt to explain how that kind of phenomena is possible. I now have two other possibilities. A Christian friend of mine pointed out that the bible says the number of days of our lives were recorded in the book long before we were born, which could mean that all my decisions are known by god, and my whole life is already in his records. (this is not my favorite explanation). I believe you gave me the other. That all of my reality exists within my own mind, so that obviously, I would be likely to know what I had planned for myself in that case. This is my second favorite explanation.
What is your view, Occam? BlackGuard

Occams idea of time springs from intuition...

Everything is in motion.. Every subatomic particle to galactic superclusters.
Motion is driven by objective or natural laws.
There is no-thing humans can see that is not in motion.

To occam the razor, the principle of parsimony...

Says look for that which explains already.

'Time'
Is a human word that equals motion...
They mean the same thing.
Occam can find no error in this...
And so far.. no-one else has. [shown such to occam]

And Motion is the NOW.
The NOW being the the experience of self aware beings.
A product of motion as well
Thought is the product of motion in the minds of humans,
Time/motion alows thought
And thought alows understnding of motion/time.

The past 'was' the state of mater/space/energy
The future is what self aware beings extrapolate/wish/hope it to be.
[after a set period of motion. And that period is a description of change
quantified by the rules that govern motion....ALL is motion]

Occam

[Beatle Kat]

Since I was 11 years old I've been discussing about god with my cousin (who's 1.5 yrs older than me).Then at primary school i had too many questions about religion, god, life after death, and since my teacher never answered my questions wholly, I begun to seriously doubt the existance of god and get angry with the Church and my dad who is a christian (my mom is an athiest but had never talked to me about religion) and finally after reading the Bible and many books I realised there was no god.I give 100% that god can't exist and I believe what science says.

[BlackGuardXIII]

BlackGuard

Occams idea of time springs from intuition...

Everything is in motion.. Every subatomic particle to galactic superclusters.
Motion is driven by objective or natural laws.
There is no-thing humans can see that is not in motion.

To occam the razor, the principle of parsimony...

Says look for that which explains already.

'Time'
Is a human word that equals motion...
They mean the same thing.
Occam can find no error in this...
And so far.. no-one else has. [shown such to occam]

And Motion is the NOW.
The NOW being the the experience of self aware beings.
A product of motion as well
Thought is the product of motion in the minds of humans,
Time/motion alows thought
And thought alows understnding of motion/time.

The past 'was' the state of mater/space/energy
The future is what self aware beings extrapolate/wish/hope it to be.
[after a set period of motion. And that period is a description of change
quantified by the rules that govern motion....ALL is motion]

Occam
You might want to look into the writings of Dewey B. Larson, in particular his book, "Nothing But Motion". It seems to be very similar to your views.

[SingflowerCat]

BlackGuard

Excellent.
The only NOW...
Is the NOW
There is no past.
It is a memory and a reading of that which once was.
There is no future,
But for the dreaming of the MIND.

The only time there is.The only reality. Is NOW.


Occam
Oooooh... I get it. I like it. Very interesting. What category does this fall into? Is it an existential theory?

[Razorofoccam]

You might want to look into the writings of Dewey B. Larson, in particular his book, "Nothing But Motion". It seems to be very similar to your views.
Blackguard

Occam will take a look at tthe ideas of this fellow Larson.

Occam came to his belief on time through his own thinking..
[deduction from human understanding of motion,, and lack of human understanding of time]
And would be very interested in other perspectives.

Thank you.

Occam

[Razorofoccam]

Oooooh... I get it. I like it. Very interesting. What category does this fall into? Is it an existential theory?
Singflower

No idea...
Maybe its just 'theory of time'...
We dont KNOW what time is...
It;s all theory..so far.

Occam

PS..though religion probably has an answer...
They have answers for everything..
Even concepts they dont understand.
Time will probably be the 'meter of god'
Or some such...An answer.without understanding.

[Hikaru Zero]

No idea...
Maybe its just 'theory of time'...
We dont KNOW what time is...
It;s all theory..so far.


Perhaps a good name might be ...
The Motion/Time Continuum?

Hehehe ... ;)
Big words for big concepts.

[SingflowerCat]

Well, based on what I've read here I guess we do know what time is...

Time is a human creation made for ease in planning, organizing... If I say yesterday, everyone knows what I mean. We all know when to meet if I say 4:00 because everyone's all on the same system of time, seconds, hours, minutes... it's all manmade.

So time doesn't exist outside of our concept of it, the same way units of measure don't exits... we decided that a foot is a foot and an inch is an inch, a gallon of milk only exists as such in our minds...

They are all words and words are what help us communicate; the words themselves are nothing at all, they just describe the described so that we have a common language for what we all collectively perceive to be real?

[BlackGuardXIII]

Well, based on what I've read here I guess we do know what time is...

Time is a human creation made for ease in planning, organizing... If I say yesterday, everyone knows what I mean. We all know when to meet if I say 4:00 because everyone's all on the same system of time, seconds, hours, minutes... it's all manmade.

So time doesn't exist outside of our concept of it, the same way units of measure don't exits... we decided that a foot is a foot and an inch is an inch, a gallon of milk only exists as such in our minds...

They are all words and words are what help us communicate; the words themselves are nothing at all, they just describe the described so that we have a common language for what we all collectively perceive to be real?
sounds good to me.

[Kharakov]

Hey, what about how your mind moves faster and slower through time? I mean, we use physical constants to define time, but everyone knows that time outside of mind flows at differing rates of perception.

"Martin... Martin." With a brain the size of a planet, everything moves at a snails pace.

[BlackGuardXIII]

Hey, what about how your mind moves faster and slower through time? I mean, we use physical constants to define time, but everyone knows that time outside of mind flows at differing rates of perception.

"Martin... Martin." With a brain the size of a planet, everything moves at a snails pace.
Everyone knows that....I feel stupid, I didn't know that.
I know that physics states that there is no absolute time nor absolute location.
And I know that the future and past are seemingly nonexistant, at least in the present moment they are, anyway.
Do you mean the phenomenon whereby during a crisis, time can appear to slow down, and how when you are enjoying yourself you wonder where the time went?

[mati]

How can the present come to pass?

[Razorofoccam]

Hey, what about how your mind moves faster and slower through time? I mean, we use physical constants to define time, but everyone knows that time outside of mind flows at differing rates of perception.

"Martin... Martin." With a brain the size of a planet, everything moves at a snails pace.
Kharakov..

The mind IS ALL "RATES" of perception..

Do you mean when your car slides out..and everything slows down....?
You may be about to die...
The body pumps all sorts of chemicals into the brain...
Our thinking processess move faster.
We analyse quicker.
The external world..seems to slow down..
Because WE ARE THINKING FASTER.

Occam

[and why is a fly so hard to swat..it thinks faster. 2 mm from brain to wing. Small neural mass..physics]