Homosexuality = sin

[DoktorAtomik]

Hi gay guys 'n' gals.

Wonder if you could take the time to answer this question for me? There's a christian over on the UK forums who's arguing that it's not judgemental to define homsexuality as a sin. He believes that because he thinks we're all sinners and he accepts everyone as they are, he isn't judging anyone and his views aren't homophobic.

My position is that the very act of referring to the consumation of gay love as a sin is judgemental and homophobic, since the consumation of heterosexual love isn't seen as a sin also. What do you guys think?

If you're intersted, the debate starts here:

http://hipforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37686&page=2&pp=10

[Mui]

i voted not judgemental... its one thing for a person to say something is a sin because of their religious beliefs, and another thing to act like a jackass homophobe because of your religious beliefs... in the end, it doesnt matter... because I dont believe in any of the bullshit bible fairy tales... so if someone wants to keep bullshitting about sins and shit, be my guest.

[HippieLngstckng]

I'm not gay, but I have plenty of friends who are... I voted that it's not judgemental, however, I wanted to tell you that this dude is missing a very important point.

Whoever he is, he needs to recognize that any kind of sexual relations outside of marriage is a sin according to the Bible. Just because it's a woman and a man doesn't make a bit of difference, it's all the same! So, if this same guy is running around screwing a bunch of girls, or even one that he's not married to, he's a hypocrite.

Remind him that it's not his place to do the judging. He needs to deal with his own sins before trying to preach to others on how to live their life.

Sounds like this guy needs a good dose of understanding and compassion. ;)

[strawpuppy]

OK, so the word SIN you are talking about is a relgious word, and if it comes from the bible, then yes homosexuality is a sin in the rules of the bible.....Also, MARRIAGE as pertaining to the biblical meaning of the union of marriage, cannot join homosexuals in marriage.

The only sin in sexual relations is where common sense dictates it is wrong...Child molesting, rape, torture ect;

The bible says it is a sin, do you believe in the bible ? If so then you are sinning, if not then you are not....

[SelfControl]

According to the Bible, it's a sin. If you believe the Bible, you are faithbound to believe this. So it's no judgemental, just a epithet of your beliefs. However, acting on that belief would be homophobic.

I'm not sure about all this though; it kinda depends what you mean by judgemental. I know the Bible says "judge not lest ye be judged", "let he who is without sin cast the first soon" etc. So technically, you can only be a homophobic Christian if you have a stainless soul yourself. People forget that.

[DoktorAtomik]

According to the Bible, it's a sin. If you believe the Bible, you are faithbound to believe this. So it's no judgemental, just a epithet of your beliefs. However, acting on that belief would be homophobic.That's not true though. The bible says it's a sin, but then it also says trimming your beard or touching a menstruating woman is a sin. So deciding which bits of the bible to believe is a human choice. There are plenty of christians who don't view homosexuality as a sin.

[strawpuppy]

"Pick-N-Mix" Christainity eh !..........

Take the bits you like and leave the bits you don't....

Somehow I don't think the authors meant it to be that way...

So are "Pick-N-Mixers" real christians ?

[Mui]

no one is a real christian, they are all hypocrites.

[ryupower]

The bible never stated that homosexuality is wrong.It stated Homosexual intercoarse is wrong. I believe in the story of Jesus Christ (his existance and what he did) is true, but I don't believe in the rest of the bible.
Now..I'm not gay, nor am I bi...I think...
but I can't stand people's descrimination of these people. It's fuckin' stupid the way sociaty treats these people. Love is love,NOT a sin. You can love whomever you want, what's wrong with loving a person of the same gender? Believe it or not, being bi is even more natural then being straight, and there have been many reports of homosexual intercoarses by animals too. Soooo? What's people's damn problem with homosexual/bi people???Fuck sociaty...
I'm totally on your side, people!

[HippieLngstckng]

"Pick-N-Mix" Christainity eh !..........

Take the bits you like and leave the bits you don't....

Somehow I don't think the authors meant it to be that way...

So are "Pick-N-Mixers" real christians ?
Some people would say that all that is required of one to be a Christian is to 1) believe that Christ died to make a way for them to get to heaven, and 2) try to act as Christ did while He was here with us.

Of course, someone who is condemning anybody for anything isn't acting Christlike... I think SelfControl already said it, but "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" were the words from His mouth, so other Christians would do well to remember that.

no one is a real christian, they are all hypocrites.
I don't know if that's necessarily so, but I agree that more often than not, a lot of folks who call themselves Christians forget the very rules they're supposed to live by.

The Bible is kind of like a rule book... You really can't pick and choose what you like and what you don't. Play by the rules, or you're just a cheat. ;)

[SelfControl]

That's not true though. The bible says it's a sin, but then it also says trimming your beard or touching a menstruating woman is a sin. So deciding which bits of the bible to believe is a human choice. There are plenty of christians who don't view homosexuality as a sin.

So you're saying it is a sin, as a counterargument to my saying that it is? Wow, new horizons in debating...

I know what you mean, some people pick and choose bits of the Bible to follow. And if you think that's the word of God, I guess you can pick and choose, and hope that you're holy enough at the end.

In my view though, following the Bible is like following any other book as gospel: if you're going to do it at all, deciding that you will then change bits renders it rather pointless.

So, in summary: I don't get gay Christians.

[DoktorAtomik]

So you're saying it is a sin, as a counterargument to my saying that it is? Wow, new horizons in debating..No, I'm saying the bible calls it a sin. The bible can call a cat a dog. It doesn't make it so. Also, being a christian doesn't mean that you have to blindly follow ever word within the bible.

[SelfControl]

1) If the Bible says something is a sin, then it is a sin according to the Bible. If that's not what I said, it's what i meant.
2) If a Christian doesn't follow the Gospel to the letter, he may as well not call himself a Christian at all, as he obviously doesn't regard the text as ineffable.
3) It's not a bad thing to not be a Christian.

[DoktorAtomik]

2) If a Christian doesn't follow the Gospel to the letter, he may as well not call himself a Christian at all, as he obviously doesn't regard the text as ineffable.But strictly speaking, a Christian is a follower of christ. So anything in the bible that isn't directly endorsed by Christ is open to interpretation surely?

[SelfControl]

I don't know. I'm not a theologian. I was just always led to believe that a Christian is someone who follows the word of Gord as written in the Bible. I guess God could've been a bit more specific, but the thing about lying down with his fellow man is pretty clear.

[DoktorAtomik]

I don't know. I'm not a theologian. I was just always led to believe that a Christian is someone who follows the word of Gord as written in the Bible. I guess God could've been a bit more specific, but the thing about lying down with his fellow man is pretty clear.Yeah, I agree. But Leviticus 19:27 also states:

You shall not cut the hair on the sides of your heads, neither shall you clip off the edge of your beard... which is also pretty clear. Don't see many christians following that law.

[ryupower]

Christians aren't the only ones using the word 'sin'. Since there are many other religions
too, that consider things to be a 'sin'. So...a sin doesn't depend on the bible, it Depends on what YOU believe. And I believe there's no way it's a sin!

[SelfControl]

Yeah, I agree. But Leviticus 19:27 also states:

... which is also pretty clear. Don't see many christians following that law.

Yes, and they're all going to Hell as a result. What makes you think that God is a nice guy and will just let that pass? His plan is ineffable, it doesn't have to fit round you. That's my opinion on it, anyway. If I was a Christian I wouldn't want to fuck with God.

I don't believe that homosexuality is sinful myself, but I think if you subscribe to a religion that says it is you should either put up with it or leave and cope without religion. Then again, I was raised without a religion.

[MusicMan19]

Well, the bible is all interpretation. No, he's not judgemental by calling you a sinner, but he is making a lofty claim. What isn't stated clearly in the bible - I.E anything that is subject to interpretation - shouldn't be used as an argument. Christians can't give you one passage that specifically prohibits homosexuality. Genesis chapter 19, involving Abraham's brother-in-law, Lot, in Sodom and Gomorrah was about condemnation of decadence, indulgence, and idolatry. Leviticus 18 (something) says "thou shall not lie with male as those who lie with a female; it's an abomination.". This could be interpreted as referring to the Canaanite Baal god fertility rituals to increase fertility of crops. Again, no human sexuality was mentioned.

Either way, you shouldn't care. If you love men, you love men and someone on the internet can't change that and means nothing in that. It's a beautiful thing. You should challenge these interpretations, and ask the people who give you these ideas in which book, chapter and verse they found this, and exactly how they could come to have interpreted it in the way they did.

[monosphere]

Yeah, I agree. But Leviticus 19:27 also states:

... which is also pretty clear. Don't see many christians following that law.
Yes, but you are referring to OLD law, which some jewish beliefs still value and follow. However, the arrival of the Messiah made way for the NEW law, which means I can shave and I don't have circumcise my child in order to be right with God.

One thing I saw here is how someone pointed out that this was directed to the act of homosexual intercourse and not to being homosexual in nature. This is why I voted no. Most Christians, if that's what they really are, should follow the "hate the sin, but love the sinner" mindset. You'd see less homophobia out there if they did.

[SelfControl]

Not sure why this thread re-emerged, but I think I won.

[henry101]

I just want to chime in here and point out that Levitical laws do not apply to Christians, in fact it is quite specific in the book of Leviticus that these are the laws which apply to Jewish priests only.

Carry on :D

[mushie18]

I just want to chime in here and point out that Levitical laws do not apply to Christians, in fact it is quite specific in the book of Leviticus that these are the laws which apply to Jewish priests only.

Carry on :D
interesting.

[Night_Owl49]

Of course it is.

Think about it: If people say having gay sex is a SIN, it is WRONG in their eyes, but NATURAL for us.

[HippieLngstckng]

Of course it is.

Think about it: If people say having gay sex is a SIN, it is WRONG in their eyes, but NATURAL for us.
And since ya'll were *BORN THAT WAY* it makes sense to believe that this is the way that G-d made ya'll. Unique, with a struggle that both unites and separates you from the rest of society.

Stay strong, ya'll. Someday, hopefully people will realize that prejudice in this area is just as foolish as prejudice based on the color of one's skin and/or the background that they were raised in. Love is love, no matter whom loves whom.

After all, who does Christ love more? Those who can speak His Words, or those who do their utmost of carry them out, by loving their neighbor as themselves and by loving G-d above all things...? :)

[inbloom]

I actually had (keyword being HAD) a best friend, who actually saying to me that gay people, "obviously having something wrong in their brains" that made them gay, as if it were known fact. I literally wanted to puke in his face, after tiger-punching him in the jaw.

The stupidity and close-mindedness of some people in this wolrd just astounds me...

[sorry, that was a wee bit off topic]

[Talk Show Host]

You guys can say all you want about fudge packers, but when I'm pounding a dude in the ass there is nothing Original about my sin.



(yay Eddie)

[freakylady]

..............

[HippieLngstckng]

are you saying you're a creative fudge packer?
On the contrary... If he's not being original, then it's gotta be conventional. Not at all to say that conventional is bad or anything... ;) But what do I know? I'm just some straight chick, anyways. :D

[Mychal]

God is the only judge.

Where in the bible does it say it's a sin? And what else does the bible describe as a sin? Many things. However some Christians have chosen this sin to be above all others, worse than all others. Many vocal fundies have judged this to be a sin worse than divorce or having sexual relations with anyone but your wife. Being gay has been taken as a canon all it's own, like murder. That's judgmental.

If being gay is a sin, it's a very convenient sin. You see, only about 10% of the population are born with this sin, so the other 90% can look down on them. That's judgmental. How convenient! You can go to church and be all smug knowing you will always be better than those horrid homos, who can do nothing about the way god created them. Ain't that swell? There will always be a sinner worse than you.

You'll notice that divorce and coveting-thy-neighbors-wife never receive the same attention as homosexuality. You don't see ministries that help straight married men so that they won't have impure thoughts about anybody but their wife. It wouldn't be very popular if they did and as soon as half the congregation realized they were being singled out for punishment for their sin, they wouldn't be going back to that church.

"Hate the sin and love the sinner" is an excuse for discrimination. At one time you would be kicked out of the church for divorce. What happened to that sin? Do we hate that sin now but love the divorced sinners who are going to hell? Do we pass laws so that your second (sinful) marriage excludes all rights of marriage? Is that loving the sinner? Once the church backs off on the anti-gay amendments I might agree that they really do love the people that they have deemed "sinners."

[monosphere]

God is the only judge.To be honest, that's what the Christian world is supposed to be following according to scripture.

Where in the bible does it say it's a sin?If you are referring to being a homosexual, it doesn't say a damned thing in the whole bible. If you are referring to performing homosexual acts, then there are a few places, mostly old testament, which state so. I'll be happy to look it up if you'd like.

And what else does the bible describe as a sin? Many things. However some Christians have chosen this sin to be above all others, worse than all others. Many vocal fundies have judged this to be a sin worse than divorce or having sexual relations with anyone but your wife. Being gay has been taken as a canon all it's own, like murder. That's judgmental.You are sooo right here. There are too many fundies who will take their agenda and hide behind religion to further their pursuits. But these are the extremists. And you know how media is with only showing the extreme views of all sides. In my opinion, the fundies do not follow their own bible and do not walk the christian path. They are a disgrace to the church and the world.

If being gay is a sin, it's a very convenient sin. You see, only about 10% of the population are born with this sin, so the other 90% can look down on them. That's judgmental. How convenient! You can go to church and be all smug knowing you will always be better than those horrid homos, who can do nothing about the way god created them. Ain't that swell? There will always be a sinner worse than you.Again, according to the Bible and most Christian beliefs, being gay is not a sin.

You'll notice that divorce and coveting-thy-neighbors-wife never receive the same attention as homosexuality.True, but divorcees aren't in the spotlight trying to fight for their rights on a daily basis, so you're not gonna have an opposing view of divorce in the spotlight.[/quote]You don't see ministries that help straight married men so that they won't have impure thoughts about anybody but their wife. It wouldn't be very popular if they did and as soon as half the congregation realized they were being singled out for punishment for their sin, they wouldn't be going back to that church. Bad example since it isn't true. There are christian groups and ministries who do help men and women with marital fidelity. And the average christian will believe that everyone is a sinner, but is worthy of forgiveness if they are truly sorry for their sin and ask for forgiveness.

"Hate the sin and love the sinner" is an excuse for discrimination.I couldn't disagree more. In fact, I think just the opposite. It's supposed to show us that even though we're notr perfect, it's no reason to judge who we are as a result of one of our actions.

At one time you would be kicked out of the church for divorce. What happened to that sin?Well, most churches like to focus on forgiveness. However, one of the praise leaders at one of my mom's old churches did get booted out after he left his wife for another woman and refused to make amends to her. The church backed up the jilted wife and decided that it was in the best interest of the church, especially the wife, to ask him to find another church home. But that was only limited to that particular church and not the whole religion.

Do we hate that sin now but love the divorced sinners who are going to hell?That's not really a christian belief to assume that one is going to hell for doing wrong. Again, the bible states, as do you in the beginning of your post, God is the only judge. But yes. We hate the sin, but love the divorced sinner.

Do we pass laws so that your second (sinful) marriage excludes all rights of marriage?Considering how many politicians are unfaithful or divorced, I don't think it'd happen.

Is that loving the sinner? Once the church backs off on the anti-gay amendments I might agree that they really do love the people that they have deemed "sinners."Just because one fights for something they believe in or against something they don't, doesn't mean they hate the people involved. I am opposed to the death penalty, but I don't hate executioners, wardens, or governors. Actually, I don't hate any human beings at all. it's not in my nature. That being said, I do have a problem with the extreme christian groups trying to get their claws into politics and into our bedrooms. What two people do consentually is none of anyone's business. The only time the law should be involved is when one human is depriving another human of their rights. But this discussion is not about human laws. it's about what is considered to be sin.

[Mychal]

My question about "where in the Bible" does it admonish homosexuality, is rhetorical. As I remember, where the bible mentions homosexual acts, it also mentions other (equal?) sins. That was my point.


Again, according to the Bible and most Christian beliefs, being gay is not a sin.

To me, that's like saying that being a woman is not a sin, but menstruating is.
The two go hand in hand.

My whole point about divorce is that at one time men were kicked out of the church for divorcing a wife. And not because your x would be uncomfortable seeing you at church with that hussy. Um, wasn't divorce Henry the VIII's big deal? And at that time people were not saying 'Love the sinner and hate the sin.' That phrase is brandished to mask unfair treatment of gays. (and I don't recall it being used before)

If the treatment of gays was equal, then churches would be trying to pass State Amendments to remove the rights of second marriage after divorce. Of course that's not going to happen! But who said the churches are fair? That's the whole point of my argument. Christians need gays so they have somebody who will always be in the minority and that they can look down on in loving disgust.



You'll notice that divorce and coveting-thy-neighbors-wife never receive the same attention as homosexuality.

True, but divorcees aren't in the spotlight trying to fight for their rights on a daily basis, so you're not gonna have an opposing view of divorce in the spotlight.



Divorcees aren't fighting for their rights because the church has gone soft on the issue. If the Catholic Church and the fundies were going after anti-divorce amendments with the same zeal they are going after the anti-gay amendments, there would be millions of Divorcees in the spotlight trying to fight for their rights on a daily basis. My point is that the Churches are picking the fight with homosexuals not because it is a bigger sin or bigger threat than divorcees, but because it keeps their parishioners smugly content with the fact that they can love the sinner and pass judgment at the same time. It is judgmental, plain and simple.

Now, I can slap you in the face, but if I tell you I am applying rogue, that doesn't mean that I am not slapping you in the face. The slogan of "love the sinner, hate the sin," is hogwash and the anti-gay State Amendments prove it is judgmental rogue.

Only DoktorAtomik can say why he started this thread several months ago. But it was dropped and picked up anew. Though it asks "is Homosexuality a sin" in the title, the Poll connected to the thread asks "Is defining homosexual intercourse as a sin homophobic/judgemental?" I don't believe my commentary veered too far from that question. Sorry, if it did.

[SelfControl]

God is the only judge.

Where in the bible does it say it's a sin? And what else does the bible describe as a sin? Many things. However some Christians have chosen this sin to be above all others, worse than all others. Many vocal fundies have judged this to be a sin worse than divorce or having sexual relations with anyone but your wife. Being gay has been taken as a canon all it's own, like murder. That's judgmental.
I think there's something in it about man laying down with his fellow man, or somesuch. It's nice and vague and reads like a bad translation (like most of the Bible really). Apparently the word homosexual wasn't in common usage at all until the 19th century (heterosexual following shortly after), and words like gay, fag, donut puncher etc. came afterwards. So there's unlikely to be any direct reference in that sense. Over matters of homosexual love (as oppose to sex), I'm pretty sure the Bible is fairly circumspect, which allowed various individuals and societies to speculate on the nature of love, marriage etc. In summary: I don't know.

What I do know is that St Augustine is largely responsible for a lot of the animosity towards homosexuals, as he was the one who, round about the 12th century, proposed that sex should be purely reproductive.

He is history's biggest cunt.

[okay]

Jesus said "I will never turn anyone away who come to me". He gave us one commandment: Love. He said, "if you obey me, I will love you always...Here is the law I give you: Love each other". All other conditions and rules of conduct have been added by men wishing to impose their morality on society.. Today, much of what is said to be Christianity is actually cultural morality. Jesus would not add conditions to his one law. He said, As long as you fulfull that one commandment (love your neighbor as you love yourself) you are also fulfilling all other commandments.

[white_raven]

It IS judgmental because it is NOT a sin. There is no proof that it is a sin except some obscure biblical passages in a sea of other passages listing ridiculous "sins" like shaving your beard and eating shellfish.

If you write it of as nonjudgmental, it just propagates the notion that our lifestyle is sinful, which it is not. I also disagree with the idea that we are all sinners. It's completely anti-humanistic and disturbing to hear.

[SelfControl]

It IS judgmental because it is NOT a sin. There is no proof that it is a sin except some obscure biblical passages in a sea of other passages listing ridiculous "sins" like shaving your beard and eating shellfish.

If you write it of as nonjudgmental, it just propagates the notion that our lifestyle is sinful, which it is not. I also disagree with the idea that we are all sinners. It's completely anti-humanistic and disturbing to hear.
I wouldn't argue that it's non-judgemental. But it is a sin by Biblical definition. That was what was being asked. The question "If it is a sin, do you care?" is perhaps more valid. Personally I don't care how many religions I offend, it's kind of a hobby for me anyway.

[SelfControl]

Most people that grow up and find their true selves grow out of the gay phase by the time they are 30-35 years old anyway. So I wouldn't call it homophobic by any stretch.http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y106/thruthejudas/crucifixion.jpg

[SelfControl]

Thanks SelfControl. I know he does.Unfortunately everyone else thinks you're a faggot.

[SelfControl]

Actually, I'm straight. Did you happen to pole "everyone" to come to that conclusion? If not, then shut your punk ass up.
Why the quotees around "everyone", breeder?

[SelfControl]

Because, that is the word you used in a prior post. Do you not understand the purpose of quotes?
Meh, I use a lot of words. "Poll" doesn't have an "e" in it, by the way. Might seem like a petty concern but I thought you were trying to make a funny with it.

[henry101]

Oh god, why do all these 'straight' religious people keep coming here?

[Green]

Oh god, why do all these 'straight' religious people keep coming here?
.......... I bet they don't even know.

[SelfControl]

Oh god, why do all these 'straight' religious people keep coming here?
And why can't they retort for shit? I'd have thought being a Christian in this day and age some kind of ready wit would have to be a given. What are they teaching them in Sunday School?

[Samhain]

this might have already been said.
I voted yes.
at best its unhelpful and and cause people to feel ashamed and guilty about their sexuality, keep someone 'in the closet' and stop them to lead a full sex life, Ive seen this still happen to people in this day and age, even though I live in a town that been named the 'gay town of England' it can cause a persons loved ones, to grasp hold of the belief and not accept family members and friends as much as they would there hetersexual ones, like my Mother whos states she accepts my sexuality and then says she doesn't know if she agrees with 'gay marriage'
at worse it gives people a damn good excuse to kill and beat up gay people, I'm not being overly dramatic here its happened to people I know in this good old gay town of mine
S

[maybegay]

Hi gay guys 'n' gals.

Wonder if you could take the time to answer this question for me? There's a christian over on the UK forums who's arguing that it's not judgemental to define homsexuality as a sin. He believes that because he thinks we're all sinners and he accepts everyone as they are, he isn't judging anyone and his views aren't homophobic.

My position is that the very act of referring to the consumation of gay love as a sin is judgemental and homophobic, since the consumation of heterosexual love isn't seen as a sin also. What do you guys think?

If you're intersted, the debate starts here:

http://hipforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37686&page=2&pp=10


Well, I do not consider it judgmental, so to speak. At least not in the bad way. I mean, everyone is "judgmental" in some way. If you think so and so at work was a real jerk today, that is technically judgmental. Just because a religious man believes gayness is a sin because his Bible says so (according to him), does not meanhe hates you or wants to hurt you. Everyone is entitled to his opinion. Now if he refused to talk to you or mistreated you because you are gay, THAT would be judgmental. Just my humble opinion.

[SageDreamer]

Hi gay guys 'n' gals.

Wonder if you could take the time to answer this question for me? There's a christian over on the UK forums who's arguing that it's not judgemental to define homsexuality as a sin. He believes that because he thinks we're all sinners and he accepts everyone as they are, he isn't judging anyone and his views aren't homophobic.

My position is that the very act of referring to the consumation of gay love as a sin is judgemental and homophobic, since the consumation of heterosexual love isn't seen as a sin also. What do you guys think?

If you're intersted, the debate starts here:

http://hipforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37686&page=2&pp=10
When you say he thinks we're all sinners, who exactly is meant by "we"? Is "we" all LGBT people or is it everyone else? Christian doctrine holds that *all* people are sinners, so if this person includes everyone and not just LGBT people, it's not homophobic. If this person is singling out LGBT people, it's homophobic and really bad theology.

[nealallen]

So has a christian never sinned?

[monosphere]

So has a christian never sinned?
If you go by the Bible, the answer is that the only one to have never sinned is Jesus. Everyone else in the world, past and present, has sinned.

[Last Stand]

Jesus did sin he hung out with tax collectors for the roman empire and prostitutes . and drank wine with them!.

[Last Stand]

where the hell you think all the money came from for that last supper ? i mean that was a fancy party when many were starving outside of the city.

[monosphere]

since when is it a sin to talk to a tax collector or prostitute? Am I sinning just by associating with my brother who has premarital sex? and it's not a sin to drink, but to get drunk, according to the scriptures. Not to mention that in those days, their wine would be the equivalent of one part today's wine to five+ parts water. And how do you know what they ate at that "fancy" last supper? Were you there? It could have been a quiet simple dinner with his disciples. Or are you just going by DaVinci's painting? It's not a sin to associate with sinners. Actually, the scriptures encourage us to do so and show a good example. Sadly, too many churches have forgotten this and have become too judgemental (which is a sin. go figure)

Jesus hung out with prostitutes, tax collectors, any and all sinners, because he loved everyone, regardless of their shortcomings. I like to think of Him as the ultimate hippie.

I'm sure it's sounding like I'm a goody goody right-wing, born-again preacher, but I'm not. I'm a pot smoking, whiskey drinking bisexual who hasn't completely made up his mind about religion, but I sure as hell make sure I research what I talk about before making false statements or generalizations about it.

[Last Stand]

Oh Boy!.

[HippieLngstckng]

Gentlemen:


While I agree that Jesus was very much the Ulitmate Hippie who loved everyone in spite of themselves or their faults, I feel the need to interject that The Last Supper was a traditional Jewish Passover meal, a.k.a. the Seder. Nothing about it is fancy - It's a rather simple meal, where each item eaten has a special significance to the Passover.

The traditional Seder meal items are listed below. Please note that none of these items are particularly extravagant, except for the meat, which is necessary for sacrifice anyways, according to my people's tradition. Enjoy!

Seder Plate
A special Seder Plate is displayed during the Seder, containing the key symbolic foods of Passover. The following items appear on the Seder Plate:


Three whole Matzahs or unleavened "bread" (either on the plate or next to it)
Maror or bitter herbs, usually horseradish or romaine lettuce
Charoset or special mixture of apples, nuts, wine and cinnamon symbolizing mortar
Karpas a vegetable such as parsley or celery
Zero`a or a piece of roasted or boiled meat or poultry, traditionally a shankbone, recalling the Paschal sacrifice of the original Exodus. Before the destruction of the Jerusalem Temple the Paschal lamb was the central feature of the Seder.
Beitzah or a roasted or boiled egg, commemorating the festival sacrifice that was brought at the Jerusalem Temple. An egg is used because it is a traditional food for mourners, reminding us of the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem.
Other items may be placed on Seder plates depending on the customs followed by the family/participants.

[Gh0sTiNnyc]

whatever ya'll want to do is fine with me...

just don't impead on my right to do the same....

[Last Stand]

Hi gay guys 'n' gals.

Wonder if you could take the time to answer this question for me? There's a christian over on the UK forums who's arguing that it's not judgemental to define homsexuality as a sin. No wonder Hitler was right bombing London after all.

[lemonboy]

well i think it's sort of judgemental to DEFINE it as a sin, because, from what i've heard, there's nothing in the bible that says that directly, however i do not think it would have been judgemental for him to have said he thinks it's a sin.

[Green]

Its either that or conforming.

[zpiper]

I personally am not offended... but I know some people that would be...

[Raspberrykoolaid]

i dont think that it is a sin, but in the bible it is a sin.... i believe that love is love no matter if it comes from someone of the same gender or a different gender, it wont change the felling of love or the meaning.. so it shouldnt be considered a sin.

[Last Stand]

i dont think that it is a sin, but in the bible it is a sin.... i believe that love is love no matter if it comes from someone of the same gender or a different gender, it wont change the felling of love or the meaning.. so it shouldnt be considered a sin.Tell that to the church. oh dont do it on a lonely rural road at night.

[free_byrd]

According to the christian bible, yes, homosexuality is a sin
but then again so is....

Eating pork and rabbit
Leviticus 11:6-8

Eating Lobster, Crab, and other types of "nonfish"
Leviticus 11:9

Being anywhere near your mom when shes on her period
Leviticus 15:19

Wearing a shirt consisting of 90% cotton/10%polyester
Leviticus 19:19

Having your steak too rare
Leviticus 19:26

Working on Sunday
Leviticus 23:3

and of course, everyones favorite...

Being Gay
Leviticus 18:22

(He begine to make his point)
All these are actual sins and, and yes are in the bible. But how many of you could really give up your bacon, your silky button up versace shirt, being near your mother for a whole 84 days out of the year, juicy steak, or losing your job because you refuse to work sundays.

(The point!(finally))
Give or take a couple of hundred years this whole homo-phobe thing will all blow over and be as normal as eggs and bacon http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

(I'm an atheist by the way)

[Last Stand]

Gasoline prices at the pump are a = Sin.

[Last Stand]

Wearing a shirt consisting of 90% cotton/10%polyester
Leviticus 19:19.....................polyester did not exist back in those days!.

[sunshine and pearls]

I know many here might not like straight people posting here, but many many people in my family are gay including the grandfather to my children so give me some leway here.
I noticed in all this sin talk no one mentioned that in Paul that all sex is considered bad so the invention of christian marriage comes because it is better to be with one person for life than to sin all the time by having sex with many people. so really the act of sex is a sin with out marriage and there is not really a set gay or straight about it, marriage allows for the act of sex.
and all the sins in lev. are old test. for those still posting. love is the only law as someone posted so well earlier.
much love.

[SelfControl]

Wearing a shirt consisting of 90% cotton/10%polyester
Leviticus 19:19

I couldn't not check this, but yeah, it's pretty much there:

Ye shall keep my statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind: thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed: neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woollen come upon thee.
Given how completely fucknut the majority of modern religious leaders are these days, I fail to see the point of taking anything in the Bible without a hefty pinch of salt. Leviticus' stuff seems surprisingly direct and specific for scripture though.

[Last Stand]

Again polyester did not exist in biblical times = No wonder this people are brain dead!

[SelfControl]

Again polyester did not exist in biblical times = No wonder this people are brain dead!
So cotton and polyester is okay but wool and linen isn't?

I'm sorry, but the non-brain dead argument is that the whole thing's retarded, not that there's something specifically wrong with wool or linen. Probably they found that wool-and-linen clothing was stronger, people bought less clothes and it was bad for the economy, so they started telling them it was a sin.

[Last Stand]

ok then shooping at walmart is a sin in the 2010 bible version!

[tuatara]

good arguements ..i just had to come in when i seen the thread ..as stated above about pigs and rabbits ..actually it's hares ..there is a difference you know ..and in the bible it states that a mman shall not lay with an ass as he does with a woman and shall not lay with a man as he does with a woman .for it is an abhoration ...never seen in the bible say that an abhoration is a sin ..doesn't define it

[tuatara]

by the way ..i'm not gay but i'm not homophobic either

[SelfControl]

ok then shooping at walmart is a sin in the 2010 bible version!
What, the Gospel According To Matt Stone, Trey Parker, Michael Moore And A Bunch Of Other People Who Used To Be Funny Before It Became Cool To Be Liberal?

[JI G]

I know many here might not like straight people posting here, but many many people in my family are gay including the grandfather to my children so give me some leway here.
I noticed in all this sin talk no one mentioned that in Paul that all sex is considered bad so the invention of christian marriage comes because it is better to be with one person for life than to sin all the time by having sex with many people. so really the act of sex is a sin with out marriage and there is not really a set gay or straight about it, marriage allows for the act of sex.
and all the sins in lev. are old test. for those still posting. love is the only law as someone posted so well earlier.
much love.
true love is love BUT
Romans 1:26-27 says: "Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion."

but in the bible it also says you can be forgiven for any sin (and since all sins are equal in gods eyes).. you can still go to heaven and be gay.. but you have to repent..(in the Christian religion)..
BTW im gay and im 14..so please correct me if you think im wrong..

[SelfControl]

And you can repent right up until your last breath, I think. Worth remembering if you want to be on the safe side.

[Libertine]

The Bible is a book of historical fiction and grotesque ritualistic, primitive barbarism. The New Testament is almost the same just more passive in its intolerance.

In this "good book" some sky daddy says homosexuality is an "abomination" while condoning the massacres of whole cities and the rape and kidnapping of virgins and the eternal frying of those who disbelieve the fairytale gospel rehash.



Who gives a fuck what it says?

[SelfControl]

Christians.


You don't have to give a shit about what the Bible says, but it's hardly surprising that it came up in a thread about homosexuality and sin (a very religious term). What I would say is that it's worth knowing what the Bible does and doesn't say if you're going to argue with homophobes, as a lot of them tend to be a) Christian, and b) dumb enough to quote the Bible as if it were a scientific study. Anyone can argue with these people and be right, but if you want to win, you need to be able to beat them on their own terms.

[jtrudel3]

When I hear "homosexual" and "sin" in the same sentence, I always think of two particular relatives (my aunt and uncle), it's sickening...

I remember one time they accused me of being on drugs, that homosexuality was a sin, that I was tempted by the devil, and they went so far as to tell me "what god wants". I've seen people pervert religion before, and tell people what the Bible says, but I've never seen anyone tell people this is "what god wants". That was pretty disgusting I thought.

So I replied to their letter, using much of the same words they used, and just turning it around on them, absolute sarchasm on my part.

[OilPaint]

Not Everybody is a Christian - Who cares what the Bible Says

[CrazybutLazy]

Not Everybody is a ChristianBut most Christians like to think so.

[CoRriNieRiNniE]

no. i dont think it is

[lisa831508]

i'm a christian, and what makes me sad is that somehow we've totally misrepresented ourselves to where everyone just thinks we're a bunch of intolerant judgemental ignorant homophobes. The truth is plainly that we believe in God, and we believe that His Word is truth. Absolute truth. So when it says homosexuality is unnatural and sinful, it's truth because God said so. It doesn't mean that we have the right to tell you you're sinful, it just gives us the right to love you and say "you know what, i'm a sinner too". All sin is, is when you do something that separates you from God. That can be any addiction, lying, being selfish, and yes, choosing to have sexual relationship with someone of the same sex. but you know what? even the people that do the worst possible things in this world, God still loves them with a love that won't quit. He wants sooooo much for them to choose him instead of those things that separate Him from them. that's the example that christians should be setting. christians should be accepting...not of the sin, constantly urging people to choose God's way...but of the fact that people aren't perfect.

[Jossue]

No, no and no. How can be a gay love a sin? How can be any human love a sin?
I´m christian and think that God is very much compassionate that all that. Please, look the David and Jonathan´s story. Always has been an example of gay love. Excuse me if I have been sudden. :)

[law147]

Sorry I did not read the whole thread cuz it's quite long...

But I wanted to say my opinion about the subject. Let's look at the idea from this point:

If there's one guy, who is a real Christian, a good man, goes every Sunday to the church, modest, helps other people, contributes to poor people or to any other good-intentioned organization (lol I don't mean a perfect guy, he'd still be a human!), and his only problem that sexually he's attracted to men, do you think God would treat him as a sinner? Don't you think his ethical deeds wouldn't pay him in return? Religion should be compassionate, full of forgiveness and good intentioned. It isn't for making life harder, vice versa, it's for making it easier! It's not a contry where you should follow the rules (You slept with a guy => go straight to hell).


Anyway, the gay marriage thing sounds odd to me... I don't think it's a good idea. If two gay guys love each other they can be a couple but not an official marriage! In my opinion, marriage now is a relegious phase which should occur only between males and females not otherwise!

(LOL English isn't my mother-tongue so I'd like to ask: what is the word which means that God treats a person well for his good deeds... like paying in return?)

[Hip-Hoplover1]

What page is the story of David and Jonathan on? I would really like to read it?

[mushie18]

read the old testament.

it is all bullshit...

the bible contradicts itself all over the place.

[Lanze]

read the old testament.

it is all bullshit...

the bible contradicts itself all over the place.Not only that but the bible doesnt even condemn homosexuality, name any scripture passage, I will tell you how it isn't about homosexuality. Even the ones that directly MENTION being gay are actually mistranslations (the real meaning of the word was lost so some asshole just put down homosexual, in the past most of those scriptures have even been filled in with masturbation, whatever suits their need)

[mushie18]

i'm pretty sure it states that homosexuality is a sin.

regardless, i could care less, i'm not christian.

[teejay1985]

All sin is sin, there are no levels of sin. There are levels of repercussions of sin, ie that murder is a sin the same as stealing, but murder has far worse repercussions. That being said, Jesus died (so we are told) for all our sins, not a select few, all our sins. God loved humanity, not those who followed Jesus. There are those Christians who argue that in Leviticus it says man shall not lay with man. They are very correct, however, if they are truly Christians, they will realise that Jesus died for the sin of homosexuality aswell every other sin, and if you believe in him you will be forgiven. "Christians" out there telling you that you are going to hell are missing the point of the Bible and of the miracle of Jesus death and rebirth. People claiming these things are more along the lines of Jewish as the follow many of the teaching of Leviticus and the Torah: all part of the Bible yes, but the coming of Jesus changed the meaning of these teaching for Christians. And yes, it is Judgemental to say that homosexualy is a sin. That is the entire point of sin, you are judged on them...Judgement Day and all that. There seem to be a lot of people out there who hide behind the Bible and use it as an excuse to act un-Christian. A little more love and a little less smiting might be a good thing, no?

[moongazer]

yes i truly believe it is judgemental or homophobic.
because if someone says that theyre more than likely saying it to you in a negative way.
and it can most certainly be considered hateful-theyre pointing YOUR sins out when everyone sins the same.

[Lanze]

i'm pretty sure it states that homosexuality is a sin.

regardless, i could care less, i'm not christian.me either but my family is, the only time homosexuality is REALLY mentioned and condemnedis in the leviticus passage which has been abandoned by almost EVERY religion yet they use that ONE single passage to hate on gays even though the whole rest of it has been denounced by the church. Its stupid. Leviticus tells you that if your a slave you should be obedient and also that you shouldnt eat any type of shellfish....its ridicilous, yet people still qoute it.

[VirgilDemon]

I think God forgives.

If I try view homosexuality in a religious way the only thing I can see is that God just gives tha chance to these few people to deal with a bigger test heterosexual dont need to deal with.

End of story

I wont necessailly see homosexuality as a sin or not a sin. The point in life is love, and having the right reasons behind an action.

Besides reaching God isnt about not doing sincs. Its about self-awareness and facing the weaknesses of the material world until we become independent from them. And that counts for heterosexuals as well. Its just that homosexuals have to deal with something else too.

I dont like calling homosexuals sinners unless they are doing sex for perverted, hideous, mutty sexual desires. But then again heterosexuals can be as sinful as homosexuals in the same way and they are.

Besides who is the sinless to throw the first rock??

[karoca]

http://maxwilly.com/?tomswebmaster

[Lanze]

http://maxwilly.com/?tomswebmasterthat website is bullshit

[paradoxgamma]

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[erzebet1961]

I really hate to get into religious discussions...but I think since God created man...and he loves us all, he loves the gay as well as the straight.

[l-foote]

I dont get into religious discussions either.

[johnnybravo]

Most homphobes are homosexuals who are afraid of being found out. Basically, they're Greenwing Macaws still in the birdcage. Fred Phelps is a good example of a Greenwing Macaw beating his wings on the cage door.

[johnnybravo]

And let's not forget all of the hate-erosexual prohobitions in the Bible, such as sleeping with your mother or sister, or bestiality.

[synaptic aether]

What the fuck kind of question is that?

Of course it is.

The only reason on could possibly ask such an inane question is because you think that your set of predetermined beliefs of what is moralhttp://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif and right are universal and apply to all.

"Is defining homosexual intercourse as a sin homophobic/judgemental?"

no shit.

i dare all people with beliefs to step out if their nightlight and admit that they can't possibly know what is going on.

[PariahHex]

I know I'm gonna regret this, but I'll just point this out.

The Bible wasn't written by God, or even by Jesus. It was written by regular, normal human beings, mostly men. Therefor, it isn't the word of God by any stretch of the imagination.

As has already been stated, Jesus left one edict for his followers: Love thy neighbor as you love thyself. Jesus was a Jew, but thought that Jewish laws were too strict. He was, in essence, the ultimate Hippie.

Then, out of the blue, a bunch of men decide that they're going to write a book that states how people should live, which is exactly what Jesus didn't want.

Bottom line: If you are a real Christian, you don't care what the bible condones or condemns, because the bible is the word of Man, not of God.

Of course, none of this applies to me, because I'm a Pagan, so don't take me too seriously. Also, I'm sure I missed alot of facts in there, but don't bother correcting me, because I really don't care about christian theology or history.

I just wanted to say all that because people are trying to condemn gays and bisexuals to hell based on some words in a book. I could write a book that says all straight people are going to hell, but that doesn't make it so.

[whichaxe]

A staunch Catholic once described the term "sin" as, "Taking an action in spite of the fact that you truly believe that action to be wrong."

From that standpoint, I don't think ANYONE has the right to judge or clarify another person's sin(s). True sins are the property of the sinner - no one else need apply. And fuck anybody who points out either through words or text that "This is what God says about your sin." If we truly knew what "God said" we'd probably not me in such a mess of a world today.

[PariahHex]

*stands in silent awe of whichaxe's insightfulness*

[bustramp]

I voted no.
Are christians critical of homosexuals? I would say "yes."
I wouldn't go so far as to say homophobic, I don't think the argument is out of irrational hatred or fear.


Bustramphttp://www.hipgallery.com/photopost2/data/500/bus8.jpg

[ElProximo]

It seems im in the minority of Christian thinking on this but the 'Sin' issue has already been dealt with at the Cross.
Now,
The real question is not asking if something is a 'sin' or not anymore but whether or not you are doing good or bad.
If you are doing what is unnatural, not Gods purpose for you and engaging in bad behavior at the expense of good behavior...
well,
Stop it.

[erzebet1961]

Yes....but what is gods purpose for each person varies...

[grimjivey]

OMG, I can't believe how many people voted no.

[hgh238]

It seems im in the minority of Christian thinking on this but the 'Sin' issue has already been dealt with at the Cross.
Now,
The real question is not asking if something is a 'sin' or not anymore but whether or not you are doing good or bad.
If you are doing what is unnatural, not Gods purpose for you and engaging in bad behavior at the expense of good behavior...
well,
Stop it.The real question is wether what you say is valid or just a personal opinion or belief. And the answer is the latter.

[hailtothekingbaby]

I voted no. I'm gay. But you know, fuck it. :)

[ElProximo]

The real question is wether what you say is valid or just a personal opinion or belief. And the answer is the latter.I didnt offer you personal opinion or belief but even if I did, they may very well be valid.
Once again, you describe what was said then just assert something contrarian.
Again, try and offer a new thought, add a thought, identify where (in your opinion) there is a problem and then explain why.
Then offer an alternative.
Otherwise you are still a spam-artist.

But to answer the question, you have to decide if you are speaking from an 'what if' argument of course.
What if the Judeo-Christian God has indeed spoken through this Bible.
Ok,
Lets say thats the case.
Is it 'Judgemental'?
Well Duh.
'Sin' is 'judgement' by its very definition.

Is it Homophobic?
Well in our scenario then its impossible for God (the one in our example) to fear anything.
Even more impossible (if that were possible heh) to have an irrational fear.
In this presumption, in this same Bible, Fear is of the Devil.

I guess if you want to get conceptual you could maybe argue that God 'fears' his children will be hurt by Sin?
Even still, 'fear' would just be the wrong word.
He doesnt want it.
He hopes they dont or wouldnt.
But 'fear' just doesnt work.

[bustramp]

http://www.hipgallery.com/photopost2/data/500/bus8.jpg
Well, here are the biblical references to homosexuality look em up if ya like:

Leviticus 20:13
Leviticus 18:22
Deuteronomy 23:17
Romans 1:26,27
1 Corinthians 6:8-10
Colossians 3:5,6
1 Timothy 1:9,10

In Leviticus 20:13 it states that "If a man lie with mankind as he lies with a woman both have committed an abomination." Abomination means great hatred or loathing, disgust.

In Romans 1:26,27 it talks about receiving a recompense (payback) this seems to indicate sin.

Does God hate homosexuality? Is He homophobic or is His hatred rational? Is hatred ever rational or justified?
We don't' really know His reasons except in Genesis 1:27,28 it says" Male and female created He them. Be fruitful and multiply replenish the earth."

When the woman was caught in the act of adultery Jesus did not condemn her He said " Let him who is without sin cast the first stone." He went on to say "Neither do I condemn thee go and sin no more." He urged repentance. But was He being judgemental when He called it a sin? In Matthew 8:15,16 Jesus says : I judge no man. and yet if I judge my judgement is true for I am not alone but I and the father are one."

So I'll let you the reader decide. Who can answer such questions? I think if Jesus were here today He wouldn't condemn but urge repentance.

[bustramp]

I really hate to get into religious discussions...but I think since God created man...and he loves us all, he loves the gay as well as the straight.
I agree with you on both counts, I think you're right. I couldn't seem to resist this one though. I'm gonna catch it I know!

bustramphttp://www.hipgallery.com/photopost2/data/500/bus8.jpg

[GringonAtlanta]

Let's pretend we are out on the football field. We are playing a great game of football, when all of a sudden, someone comes running out on the field with a basketball. He starts trying to throw hoops while everyone else is playing football. ALL OF A SUDDEN, the referee comes running out on the field, hollering at the guy that he should get off the field, that what he is doing is not allowed in the game of football.

Does that mean the referee HATES the guy? Does that mean the referee is being judgemental towards the guy? Why not? Because the referee has a rule book he is following for the game of football. So the emphasis shifts from the referee to the rule book.

When religious people (Muslims and Jews, as well as Christians) complain that homosexuality is wrong or sinful, is it because they HATE us? Or because their "rule book" says so.

So the question should not be: Are they homophobic or judgemental? But rather: "Is the Bible, Torah and Koran CORRECT when it pictures us as "reprobates" calling for our execution by stones. The Bible MOST CERTAINLY does say that we are headed for hell. In fact, if you are just effeminate, according to the Bible, you are going to Hell.

If you believe in the Bible as being Holy and correct from the word "In" in the book of Genesis to the word "Amen" in the book of the Revelation, then you have no choice but to say homosexuality is a sin.

As a gay man, I am very thankful that I don't believe the above. I realize that I am a wonderful person (well, I could be) who did NOT choose my sexuality and I no more believe that I am going to burn in Hell for my sexual orientation than Jerry Falwell is.

But I can't expect people who TAKE THEIR RELIGION SERIOUSLY to just overlook what their Holy Book say.

[erzebet1961]

No...but one can expect some compassion from those who call themselves christian...after all the word Christian means Christ Like....and Christ didnt go around bashing and hurting people just because they are different...he preached love and compassion. So , Yes , i expect to be treated fair by those who claim to follow the loving , kind , and gentle teachings !!!

[erzebet1961]

And I will not allow people to come on here and flame and hate my friends in the name of religion !!

[ElProximo]

Let's pretend we are out on the football field. We are playing a great game of football, when all of a sudden, someone comes running out on the field with a basketball. He starts trying to throw hoops while everyone else is playing football. ALL OF A SUDDEN, the referee comes running out on the field, hollering at the guy that he should get off the field, that what he is doing is not allowed in the game of football.

Does that mean the referee HATES the guy? Does that mean the referee is being judgemental towards the guy? Why not? Because the referee has a rule book he is following for the game of football. So the emphasis shifts from the referee to the rule book.

When religious people (Muslims and Jews, as well as Christians) complain that homosexuality is wrong or sinful, is it because they HATE us? Or because their "rule book" says so.

So the question should not be: Are they homophobic or judgemental? But rather: "Is the Bible, Torah and Koran CORRECT when it pictures us as "reprobates" calling for our execution by stones. The Bible MOST CERTAINLY does say that we are headed for hell. In fact, if you are just effeminate, according to the Bible, you are going to Hell.

If you believe in the Bible as being Holy and correct from the word "In" in the book of Genesis to the word "Amen" in the book of the Revelation, then you have no choice but to say homosexuality is a sin.

As a gay man, I am very thankful that I don't believe the above. I realize that I am a wonderful person (well, I could be) who did NOT choose my sexuality and I no more believe that I am going to burn in Hell for my sexual orientation than Jerry Falwell is.

But I can't expect people who TAKE THEIR RELIGION SERIOUSLY to just overlook what their Holy Book say .I was refreshed, impressed and agreeing with you all the way up to the end heh.
Well, you would definately have a point with the Koran where all under the house (system) of Islam would still get a death penalty for homosexual behavior.
For Jews, you would have to be an Israelite I suppose.

For Christians though, you have it all bang-on right in your analogies and your reasoning (credit due because most cant get as far as you have!)
However,
Having said that,
Christianity (Thanks to Jesus) turns everything on its own head. It relentlessly make a distinction between your 'natural man' and then the 'Christ living in you'.
Its practically mercilous in a campaign that drives the point home over and over that your 'worldly identity' will not and cannot measure up or pass.
Look at just a sample of what cannot inherit the Kingdom:

KJV: Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, noreffeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind.

But there is more meaning in that particular passage anyways. http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/6-9.htm
It is to the Church in Corinth.
In particular to prostitution and in this case refers to male prostitution being made 'part of' the Church and Christianity.
It helps to know that there were religious sects/cults in Corinth in which their temples had a type of 'priest' which was men who became like woman (feminises, transgendered, tranny whatever you say).
It was made as a sort of sacrement or 'ritual' for men to have sex with the 'shemale'.
So here St. Paul is driving the point that the Kingdom of God does not have such positions.
And you may very well enter the Kingdom of God anyways, but it certainly will not be 'as a male prostitute'.
No more than you will find such a thing in Gods Kingdom as 'The Church Gossiper/Slanderer'.
Thats not a position available.
You wont enter the Kingdom 'as a Slanderer'.

Speaking of Slander... I sure notice a lot of folks introducing terms like 'Islam and Christianity'.
Uh No.
Not only are they two different creatures but about as opposite as you can get.
Two completely different concepts going on there and never the twain shall meet.
Judaism and Islam... well its true that you could be stoned to death in either of those systems. :O

[Alana]

It seems to me that sex in itself is sin, the 'original sin' so to speak. According to the christian doctrine, Adam and Eve committed the first sin, and as a punishment, we are all born into sin.

If you believe it, it will screw up your life.

[scottb75]

If you choose to believe it. To answer the poll I say yes it is homophobic and judgemental.

[Schismatic]

I voted no. Merely acknowledging what you believe some old collection of writings to assert shows no enmity.

However, placing unbalanced focus on the "wrongness" of homosexuality and antagonizing measures supporting homosexual rights is, I believe, evidence of homophobia. Obviously, many religious groups are guilty of this. Most notably, perhaps, is the "God Hates Fags" group, but other religious groups and leaders exhibit homophobia in more subtle ways. They write books and give presentations on why homosexuality will cause our society to collapse. They encourage legislation to hinder homosexuals.

Sure, the Christian Bible may say that homosexual intercourse is a sin, depending on what interpretation you choose to go by, but I don't think any version/interpretation puts much focus on condemning homosexuality. It seems to me the focus of the Bible is much more about love and treating others how you would like them to treat you. The supposed vilification of homosexuality by the Bible is just another example of people making subjective interpretations to suit their own needs.

[J0hn]

Homosexuality is a sin as it contradicts the bible. However! However!, I don't think it right to condemn gay people. I myself am a gay and believe man was meant to sin. Never the less, even straight people can sin in sexual ways.

[USA in decline]

A sin is = if you dont flush the bible and other similar books down the toilet.

[USA in decline]

Homosexuality is a sin as it contradicts the bible. However! However!, I don't think it right to condemn gay people. I myself am a gay and believe man was meant to sin. Never the less, even straight people can sin in sexual ways. Besides you can Sin for 6 days go to church on sunday be forgiven and given another credit card to sin for the next 6 days then do it all over again.

[Sherlock Holmes]

To me, using the Bible to condemn people is a sin. Personally, I do not believe in taking the Bible literally, but I am still a gay Christian.

The books in the Bible were written during a time of different ideas and different agendas than today.

According to the Bible, judging people is a sin.

[USA in decline]

To me, using the Bible to condemn people is a sin. Personally, I do not believe in taking the Bible literally, but I am still a gay Christian.

The books in the Bible were written during a time of different ideas and different agendas than today.

According to the Bible, judging people is a sin. not a single word is mention about homosexuality in the old testament . and im not wasting my time discusing the second version of the bible.

[Sherlock Holmes]

not a single word is mention about homosexuality in the old testament . and im not wasting my time discusing the second version of the bible. True. The words "Homosexual" and "Sodomy" were both invented words added in the 18th Century. There were no words in Hebrew or Greek in Biblical times that meant "Homosexual" or "Sodomy".

In Biblical times, the laws and ideas were very different from that of today. The so-called anti-gay law in Leviticus was a part of what it known as the Holiness Code for the Jews. For them, one of their most important rules was "to be fruitful and multiple". They were also obsessed with purity as well. Both of these ideas shaped their culture and laws.

Since they considered Gentiles unclean, they tried to distance themselves from them as much as possible. Therefore, they created many of their laws to differentiate themselves from everyone else. These laws called the following things abominations: marrying a Gentile, farming the corners of a field, sowing a field with two types of seed, trimming your sideburns or beard, wearing clothing made from two types of fibers, coming in contact with a menstruating woman, sending a recently married man to war, coming in contact with a diseased person, disabled peoples, eating shellfish, eating pork, working on Sundays, and so on.

In addition, anything that seemed to be a waste of "seed" was outlawed because they believed that men had a limited amount of sperm (We know differently these days). Therefore, sex between men, masturbation, bestiality, prostitution, adultery, incest, and so forth were outlawed because to them it was a waste of "seed" and not focused on procreation. Since women didn't produce sperm, they never saw a need to outlaw lesbianism.

I’m not going to go into Sodomy because it would take a LONG time to discuss it.

Another interesting thing to note: In Biblical times, the general consensus was that if you had a disease or you were disabled, then you were that way because you sinned. In other words, it was your own fault. Therefore, if you had Leprosy, cancer, or a deadly fever or you were blind or deaf, it was your own fault and you must have sinned in order to have ended up like that.

[Alana]

not a single word is mention about homosexuality in the old testament . and im not wasting my time discusing the second version of the bible.
No, but Exodus and Dueteronomy both prohbit "man laying with man"

[USA in decline]

No, but Exodus and Dueteronomy both prohbit "man laying with man" That was another page added by a mortal man not GOD.

[USA in decline]

750-594 B.C Aristocratic Age

776 First Olympic Games
750 Greek colonies in Italy Music developed/Oriental influence on art
Stone architecture
Hesiod flourishes
Human figures - pottery main subject
683 Republican rule by aristocrats in Athens
650 Large free-standing sculpture evolves
600 Use of coined money Black attic style in pottery
Lyric poetry - Sappho and Alcëus flourish
580 Philosophy and science begin with Thales and Anaximander

[USA in decline]

478-445 B.C Rise of Athenean Empire

478 Athens leads in forming Delian League of Greek States
472 Aeschylus- The Persians
468 Sophocles introduces more than 2 actors
in tragic play/wins contest over íschylus
Aeschylus- 7 Against Thebes
462 Pericles brings democratic reforms to Athens
460 Hippocrates born
459 Rivalry between Athens and Sparta increases
456 Temple for Zeus at Olympia completed
455 Euripides' first tragedy
451 Athenean citizenship restricted/pay for jurors
448 Athenean empire firmly established Parthenon begun
446 Pindar's odes
445 30 years peace between Athens and Sparta declared
441 Sophocles' Antigone
437 The Propylëa-Acropolis gateway-begun

[USA in decline]

431-404 B.C Peloponnesian War

431 Peloponnesian war between Athens
and Sparta breaks out Euripides' Medea
429 Pericles dies
427 Sophocles' Oedipus Rex
424 Thucydides - Greek historian
423 Aristophanes' The Clouds
415 Euripides' Trojan Women
414 Aristophanes comedy - The Birds
413 Euripides' Electra
411 Aristophanes' Lysistrata
405 Aristophanes' The Frogs
404 Athens surrenders to Sparta

[USA in decline]

404-371 B.C Supremacy of Sparta

401 Sophocles Oedipus at Colonus
399 Socrates, tried and condemned, drinks
hemlock
385 Plato begins teaching at Athens
382 Sparta seizes citadel of Thebes
379 Sparta expelled from Thebes
378 Spartan-Thebean alliance
371 Sparta defeated by Thebes

[USA in decline]

359 B.C Philip II - Macedonian throne
343 Aristotle tutor to Alexander
338 Philip defeats Athens - supreme power in Greece
336 Philip assassinated/Alexander succeeds
335 Alexander razes Thebes - extends rule Aristotle founds school in Athens
331 Alexander smashes Persia
330 Alexander moves further into Asia Statues of Æschylus, Euripides, and
Sophocles erected in Theatre of Dionysus
in Athens
323 Alexander dies in Babylon; successors begin to carve up his empire

[USA in decline]

In Sparta Persia would find a military machine like no other, closed to the outside world, Sparta's people though they were the chosen super-race and with extreme laws and ideals they planned to stay that way.

At birth all babies were examined to check that they can form to the Spartan ideal, even prince Leonidas would have been tested.

(Victor Davis Hanson, California Sate Univercity) You failed a physical test that is you were born into a family and had an obvious glaring defect whether that was being lame or blind or deaf you would have been killed, exposed.

(Main speaker) Exposure was common across ancient Greece but Spartans took it to extreme.

(Paul Cartledge, University of Cambridge) Children were exposed not only because they were deformed but also because parents could not bring them up and the though was they would be picked up, they would be brought up. In Sparta they took the view that deformed infants (even ones showing some signs of weakness) were to be hurled down a kazum (cliff) not far from Sparta and literally killed.

In Sparta a healthy boy like Leonidas would have been allowed to live and so begin his life long duty to the state. At the age of 7 a boy would have been removed from his family and though the Spartan ways. Living together in barracks the boys learn comradeship and deprived of all conforts they were molded through extreme hardship.

A person from a very early age would have to learn how to hunt, would go barefooted, would have to learn to survive on its own in the wilds.

The were deliberately given not enough to eat and also they were encouraged to steal to augment their media rations and they were whipped if they were caught, not because stealing was a crime but because they were clumsy thief's.

And the eyes of Sparta were everyone weeding out the weak and lazy. When Leonidas would have hit puberty a Spartan mentor would have taken him under his wing.

(Paul Cartridge, U. of Cambridge) Spartan girls were given some sort of formal education and they had some sort of exercise, allegedly naked, in front of the boys. The aim being for them to be, when they married and they married late by Greek standards, educated, brought up in such ways to be able to survive the riges of childbirth. Ideally they gave birth to boys because Sparta was a fundamentally a military society so the whole system is geared to producing largest number physically fittest fighting males.

(Peter Green, U.of Texas) One of the things that always amazes me is that they ever manage to produce children because they were encouraged to go into sort of military homosexual relationships until they were allowed to marry.

(Anton Powel, University of Wales, Swansea) The Spartans may wel be fighting next to their boyfriends. Homosexuality was though to bind men to their peers. It was your job with your shield and your own spear to guard your lover , that was part of the cement that kept the Spartan battle line together. Homosexuality was very common in Sparta and it was positivly looked on - provided it didnt stop men breeding.

(Main Speaker) The Spartan population was perilously small so there were laws designed to spice up the sex lives of married couples.

(Anton Powel, University of Wales, Swansea) A Spartan man wasnt allowed to see his wife in daylight for the first ten years or so of their marriage. A man was encouraged to see his wife as a splendid sex object. Emotional development is something we did not want because families were a source of peculiarity. Spartans wanted to produce similars, they wanted them wheeling on a battlefield , one mind like a flook of birds.

(Main Speaker) At age 20, Leonidas would have joined Spartan ranks. His duty -- to fight for Sparta until he was sixty or dead. He would have be given Sparta's trademark, red cloak, the only uniform in Greece designed to hide blood -- whether that of his own of that of one of his victims. Leonidas would have also been required to grow his hair into long locks.

(Anton Powel, University of Wales, Swansea) Sparta's hair is meant to intimidate, it was long, it bristled, these were Spartan dreadlocks. They were for the enemy to dread. When someone looked at a Spartiate they were meant to draw a message about Spartan society. This man is terrifying. Look at the size of him, the length of his hair, blood red cover of his cloak, look at the rest of them there too. They are calling attention to themselves -- masters of the universe.

[Sherlock Holmes]

I'm just hoping that my post isn't overlooked. It was at the end of page 3 and was posted a short while before Alana's post.

[paradoxgamma]

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[happyaus]

ive found a really good post on a blog about this issue. take a look:

http://cynicpad.wordpress.com/

[TARABELLE]

I don't want to upstage the serious debate going on, just wanted to log my opinion on the subject. I think God (or whatever that may be for you) LOVES gays. They are the most free, flamboyant, and colorful people I've ever known and I personally think God or the Goddesses (whatever trips YOUR trigger) must think so too and laughs out loud with happiness at their antics! http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Samhain]

Maybe it would be good to examine the original post in this thread, it clearly states what do YOU think about the question "is referring to the consumation of a gay love a sin'

please just give your a opinon on this, of course if a small amount of text will back up your opinon do you use it.
this thread is not asking for a history lesson about homosexuality or asking for book reviews, it is simply asking for your opinon
if I feel you are spamming this thread I will simply delete the posts
S
Hi gay guys 'n' gals.

Wonder if you could take the time to answer this question for me? There's a christian over on the UK forums who's arguing that it's not judgemental to define homsexuality as a sin. He believes that because he thinks we're all sinners and he accepts everyone as they are, he isn't judging anyone and his views aren't homophobic.

My position is that the very act of referring to the consumation of gay love as a sin is judgemental and homophobic, since the consumation of heterosexual love isn't seen as a sin also. What do you guys think?

If you're intersted, the debate starts here:

http://hipforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37686&page=2&pp=10

[TARABELLE]

Maybe it would be good to examine the original post in this thread, it clearly states what do YOU think about the question "is referring to the consumation of a gay love a sin'

please just give your a opinon on this, of course if a small amount of text will back up your opinon do you use it.
this thread is not asking for a history lesson about homosexuality or asking for book reviews, it is simply asking for your opinon
if I feel you are spamming this thread I will simply delete the posts
S
gosh, I hope my post was in order? I just hate being chastised. http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif

[SelfControl]

I think it's relevant to mention the Bible, since that's where the whole concept of sin comes from in this case. But point taken. You could argue in circles for months (as indeed we have) over it and still never be certain. In answer to the question, I don't think the church is anymore judgemental for taking that position than it is for any other that it's taken.

[Frieden]

Has anybody here ever read the book The Good Book by Peter Gomes?
He has an interesting take on MANY subjects of the Bible including homosexuality and if it's sinful! He gets into a common arugment that the way you interept the Bible is what you make think that it is homosexual. Don't qoute me because it's been awhile since I read this book, but he says that from the Bible's original context it didn't have a word for homosexuality instead Sodomity(sp?) And that Sodomity refers to any sexual perversion(i.e. being sexually involved with other intentions that concieving) I know this version of Sodmoity doesn't coincide with the Sodom and Gomorrah story that most Christians are familiar with but he has a real good argument about that too! I'm not as good as explaining these things as Gomes is but I highly recommend this book for everybody! It really makes you think...


p.s. I didn't read the entire contents of this thread so if this has already been talked about please disregard this post :)

[AfricaUnite]

I dont believe its a sin, because what is a sin, homosexuals do no harm to anyone. It does not make sense however. Any species is put on earth to pass its DNA generation to generation, homosexuals cannot do this by traditional means. So my answer, its not a sin, its a sickness.

[USA in decline]

sickness is what goes on in africa.

[erzebet1961]

Yes....but there are plenty of " NORMAL " people who cant pass on their DNA for reasons also.

[USA in decline]

Humanity was never = Normal.

[Night_Owl49]

I think God (or whatever that may be for you) LOVES gays. They are the most free, flamboyant, and colorful people I've ever known Flamboyant and colorful? What the hell? http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/newsmilies/leaving.gif

[erzebet1961]

I guess NORMAL wasnt the right word....I mean there are straight people who cant pass on their DNA...but society doesnt down them because of not re-producing.....if thats the excuse a person is using against gays....yes...the Bible says be fruitfull and multipy and replenish the Earth....but whether to do so or not is left up to each person.

[SelfControl]

I dont believe its a sin, because what is a sin, homosexuals do no harm to anyone. It does not make sense however. Any species is put on earth to pass its DNA generation to generation, homosexuals cannot do this by traditional means. So my answer, its not a sin, its a sickness.

In a word: bees.

One can ensure the survival of the species in more ways than merely adding to it. It's common enough in nature for there to be adults who don't bear children but who do serve roles within the colony as hunters, "nannies", etc. It's perhaps not coincidence that if every adult in these situations bore children, the population would spiral out of contorl.

Fact is, humanity is in no danger of dying out from lack of reproduction. We can definitely survive every homosexual choosing not to have children, just as we can survive a fair percentage of heterosexuals making that choice.

[Writing Rainbow]

I can see some people defining it as "sin".or "wrong" Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I suppose it's the religion one subscribes to? Even homosexuals though, who are part of a certain religion that condones homosexuality (Catholocism for example.) still believe homosexuality is legitimate. To many people, the Bible is fiction. The Bible also states we need to accept each other as WHO we are, not the group we belong to.

-WR

[Writing Rainbow]

I dont believe its a sin, because what is a sin, homosexuals do no harm to anyone. It does not make sense however. Any species is put on earth to pass its DNA generation to generation, homosexuals cannot do this by traditional means. So my answer, its not a sin, its a sickness.
A sickness? Are you out of your fucking mind? Wha'chu been smokin' mon'? (Did that racial slur define you as having a "sickness"?) No, it's not a sin, you're correct there!
We should we ablr to get pleasure from whatever we please and the rest of 'em can go fuck themselves.
-WR

[*Andy*]

Dude thats pretty fucked up. A sickness? You must've been taught rubbish by your parents because no sensible person would think like that. What you saying is that everything was "put" on Earth to have sex and make babies. I guess you could say that being retarded is a sickness too but then you'd be a moron. I'm African (no, I'm not "black") and I don't even think you are ..Ontario? You've just got dark skin probably thats all. I don't know how that relates to what you're saying but I'm saying it anyway.

[Samhain]

Dude thats pretty fucked up. A sickness? You must've been taught rubbish by your parents because no sensible person would think like that. What you saying is that everything was "put" on Earth to have sex and make babies. I guess you could say that being retarded is a sickness too but then you'd be a moron. I'm African (no, I'm not "black") and I don't even think you are ..Ontario? You've just got dark skin probably thats all. I don't know how that relates to what you're saying but I'm saying it anyway.
Andybe careful about making personnal comments to other people, reflect on the content of what is being said, say you disagree if you like, say it makes you angry, but don't make personnal comments about someones culture.
what you said in the above post came very close to a personnal attack
S

[trekker]

Focusing on the spiritual world and the kingdom of God is not sin. That is what Jesus says many times. So it doesnt matter if you are gay, as long as you love God and focus your actions on pleasing God. The bible has some very good lessons to teach.

[SaraiLoruhamah]

I voted no. It is not homophobic to call homosexual intersourse a sin anymore than it is heterophobic to call lust or sex before marriage a sin. It is sex-phobic. Or something like that. I am bisexual and I used to be a follower of Christ- a good one and I felt pretty good about myself and about my relationship with God and about my life in general until I started going to church. I went and actually listened to what the baptists said. I took what they said to heart (and it made me feel terrible). I started having all sorts of problems when I started going to church. I hated myself and had really low self esteem. After a few years of silent desparation they somehow found out about me being bi. A bunch of the adult youth leaders confronted me about it. I told them I couldnt understand why it was a sin. Lifestyle- they said. I argued that I never ever had sex with anyone- told them I denied my feelings as much as possible. To them if your gay your gay even if you are cellibut. They told me I was an abomination and they didnt want me to be around their kids. I cried a lot that day. They convinced me that I was straight (I dont know how). Those people are really terrible. They made me feel like shit. I havent been back to church since (my mom quit making me go). My relationship with God hasnt been the same since and I have sworn off most organized religion. I am to the point now that I wont go to church if I am invited. The couple of years I attended church were probably the worst years of my life

[Sherlock Holmes]

I voted no. It is not homophobic to call homosexual intersourse a sin anymore than it is heterophobic to call lust or sex before marriage a sin. It is sex-phobic. Or something like that. I am bisexual and I used to be a follower of Christ- a good one and I felt pretty good about myself and about my relationship with God and about my life in general until I started going to church. I went and actually listened to what the baptists said. I took what they said to heart (and it made me feel terrible). I started having all sorts of problems when I started going to church. I hated myself and had really low self esteem. After a few years of silent desparation they somehow found out about me being bi. A bunch of the adult youth leaders confronted me about it. I told them I couldnt understand why it was a sin. Lifestyle- they said. I argued that I never ever had sex with anyone- told them I denied my feelings as much as possible. To them if your gay your gay even if you are cellibut. They told me I was an abomination and they didnt want me to be around their kids. I cried a lot that day. They convinced me that I was straight (I dont know how). Those people are really terrible. They made me feel like shit. I havent been back to church since (my mom quit making me go). My relationship with God hasnt been the same since and I have sworn off most organized religion. I am to the point now that I wont go to church if I am invited. The couple of years I attended church were probably the worst years of my life
There are two types of churches. Good accepting churches and bad, narrow-minded churches. It definitely sounds like you went to one of the bad ones like I did.

Not all churches are like that though. MCC and UCC churches are generally very open and affirming churches that welcome gay people into their congregations. I go to a UCC and I really like it there.

[sentient]

How can being judgemental be a sin ??? if it were a sin the god would be a sinner since god gets paid for being a judge !!!! well the catholic church and its capitalist arse licking clergy get paid for saying that its a sin. So what if some butthead thinks you guys sucking nob are evil? Just have a go back and tell him he's a twat ? ask him if he thinks masturbating into a womans vag is a sin - because unless they are trying to make a baby - then its masturbation which is a sin ! just get more interesting with how you attack people who attack you BUT dont bring christians into it - their god is a talking turd and they all talk out their arseholes

and BTW I'm an anarchist from the UK and yeah that uk forum is a bit too right wing - I noticed today theres some very subtle fascism going on there - but the revolution is about to begin in that place

[TARABELLE]

There are two types of churches. Good accepting churches and bad, narrow-minded churches. It definitely sounds like you went to one of the bad ones like I did.

Not all churches are like that though. MCC and UCC churches are generally very open and affirming churches that welcome gay people into their congregations. I go to a UCC and I really like it there.
I've been to the MCC churches. I like them alot - the only organized church I would contemplate attending.

[bkcmar]

Yes defining gay sex as a sin is homophobic. Hetrosexual behavior is not viewed as sinful or inappropriate. Religion is used to justify all sorts of bigotry.

[LetLovinTakeHold]

I've read every post in this thread, and everything has already been said. But since most people won't read all of it I still want to put my two cents in.

It is not judgemental to call homosexuals sinners, because all man kind are sinners. ALL OF US. It is judgemental however to hold homosexuality a higher sin than any other. And as far as the word homophobic....I don't understand the use of the word in todays society. I think being gay is a sin, so therfore I am homophobic? I thought the suffix "phobic" meant being afraid of.

[LetLovinTakeHold]

I also want to say that I don't go to church anymore. I disagree with most organized religon because religon is man made....it is faith and love that is handed down from God. I take the bible for what it is....WORDS. Words that were not only written by man, but censored for thousands of years by man. A lot of the time with ulterior motives. But if you can understand the words that are good, and realize the words that are condemning, than the bible can be a great influince in your life.....

That is all.

PEACE and LOVE

[erzebet1961]

Ask yourself ...would you be afraid to have sex with a man....hence...phobic...

[happyonehit420]

i dont know....by the bible's standards, humans are imperfect. But humans wrote the bible, and to me, that makes the bible imperfect. If you were the one writing the true words of God, but he mentioned nothing of homosexuality even though you strongly opposed it, wouldn't you just add that bit in there to get your way? We have no way of telling what mankind added into the bible for their own benefits versus what was truly said by God, if anything was even ever said at all. I'd rather not let my faith in God frighten me out of loving another man. I always thought God wanted us to show compassion and love for everyone, even our enemies. Plus, I think that that if God truly does exist, and he created everything that ever existed, then he would surely have the power to not allow humans to be born gay. If he didn't like homosexuality as much as the bible says he doesn't, he would simply make them straight. I don't even think God could give a rat's ass about what gender we love, he supposed to love us infinitely anyways......

[LetLovinTakeHold]

Ask yourself ...would you be afraid to have sex with a man....hence...phobic...
I aint skeered! lol

I am not afraid of eating an insect, it's just something that I won't do. Same applies with homosexuality, it doesn't scare me....I just couldn't do it.

[greenice]

Not really, if that is what you like then rock it!

[async]

The bible is very clear about homosexuality and defines it as an abomination. Having said that, it is not for us to judge. All judgement should come from God and is between the individual and God. As a Christian, I am instructed to love the individual.

Hate the sin, love the sinner. It's as simple as that.

[whichaxe]

The bible is very unclear. It was written in different language(s), ages ago, in a different context, for an ancient people living in a reality totally foreign to modern day Western life. Translators over the centuries have in fact taken liberties with many phrases in the bible.

There are many websites dedicated to the issues of error and interpretation in the bible.

Here is one decent site. At the very least, I believe that there is doubt when it comes to many bible issues stemming from translation. There is enough to cast a shadow of a doubt. And in my mind, that is enough to not believe in a literal scripture translation.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/

[yarapario]

Want an idea of how badly the bible has been bent to suit the needs of small minded people...read john Boswell's classic, Christianity, Social Tolerance and Homosexuality. The man was a history scholar beyond compare who could (and did) read the original documents in the language they were written. For hundreds of years the church had no problem with same sex love and such realtionships were blessed and revered. The bible itself refers to some of these relationships. The current form of the bible holds no more truth than a Steve King novel and lacks the ability to sustain much interest save for freaks who want to use it as "God's Word".
Thanks, Whichaxe, I bookmarked the site you suggested, it looks promising.

[Hypocrit]

If you can't be gay through sexuality then what way is there?

Sure love can be about more then sex but doesn't a gay relationship entail sex being that it IS romantic and all?

Sorry I view most Christianity as utter patriarchal propaghanda so yeah, I beleive it is homophobic. If I condemned heterosexual sex as a sin would you be offended?

Religion is not an excuse for ignorance.

[lovelorned]

"Pick-N-Mix" Christainity eh !..........

Take the bits you like and leave the bits you don't....

Somehow I don't think the authors meant it to be that way...

So are "Pick-N-Mixers" real christians ?


I"m going to say this, and I don't want anyone to get mad at me..

I think homosexuality is a sin..because I was raised as a Christian..HOWEVER..I"m Bisexual..leaning more over to the lesbian side..

I dunno what to say anymore..

Guess im a hypocrite.ooh well..lol.

I enjoy being bisexual..and I can't help it that women are hawt as well as men..srry fathe..I try..lol

Sorry ppl.. :nopity:

[yarapario]

Like the song says "love the one you're with", leave the gay, straight, bi, labels to folks who can't think for themselves. The world would be far better off if corporate religion would vanish. Nobody ever really found God in a book... ya wanna find God, head to the woods, watch some goofy little kids play, play with your dog or cat, listen for the smiles in an old person voice as they reflect on the things that matter to them. Canned religion is toxic to mankind.

[Skycracker]

That is a pretty difficult question to answer. I personally would think it is judgemental to call homosexuality a sin. However, if you've been brought up with the bible and been taught that everything in it is 100% truth and God's word, then it is understandable (if not correct) why a lot of people would call homosexuality a sin.


I have a very open mind about God and all other things spiritual. I wouldn't say i believe in God, but i couldn't say that he definitely doesn't exist either. I do think though, that if an all loving creator does exist, i find it very hard to believe that he would condemn homosexuality. Gay people are not harming anyone by being who they are, so i have a hard time accepting that any loving God would condemn someone purely for being gay. I truly believe that IF the bible was the word of God, i also believe that it has been manipulated over the centuries by men who have wanted to twist and pervert it to suit their own vision of what is sinful, and what isn't. I imagine the bible that was originally written probably looks very different to the version that people are reading today. If there is even the slightest chance that some passages of the bible were changed or manipulated by man (Which i think there quite obviously is) then i am not going to base my beliefs and principles on that.

It also irks me how so many Christians focus so much on the "sin" of homosexuality but seem to virtually ignore all the other sins in the bible. Most probably because they themselves are committing those sins, and want to deviate attention from that fact. Even if homosexuality is a "sin", is it anymore of a sin than any other? No, even the current version of the bible doesn't say homosexuality is an especially bad sin that should be treated as worse than the rest of them.

I am not an authority on homosexuality, but i do believe some people are born with the tendency to be attracted to their own sex. Why would God make some people have a sexual attraction to their own sex when he personally thinks it's wrong? That's just stupid!

So, do i think saying homosexuality is a sin is being judgemental and homophobic? Yes i do. Because i believe intolerance and hatred is a completely man made thing, and has nothing to do with a loving god whatsoever.

[lovelorned]

As far as "real Christian" and whatever this and that..I think a "real" Christian is simply someone who believes that Jesus died for them..

Not all that other stuff...I'm bisexual like I said and lean more over to lesbian..but I don't think God will send me to hell for it because I can't help it..


But thats just my beliefs..Oh well...lol..well see..

WHEN THE WORLD ENDS!

[calisouth]

edit

[Mr. Melty]

I don't think it's judgemental. Christians might think it's a sin, and i agree that if they chose their definition of sin yeah being gay is a sin, but since i'm not a christian, the gay=sin thing doesn't hold water in my opinion regarding gay ppl.

[johnnybravo]

There's a difference between SIN and EVIL. Sin actually means to make mistakes or to "miss the mark", a state of imperfection. Evil is well, evil. Murder for instance is not a mistake. It's a calculated act of evil. Being gay in not evil. So the two can't be compared.

[ryupower]

This thread is amazing...I was just about to give my answer until I found out I already answered to this thread...FOUR YEARS AGO... before I turned Christian. Wow...just...wow.. lol. I have a different answer now....

The act of homosexuality is a sin, but that's the only thing. Like someone already stated: ANY sex out of marriage is sin. Not just homosexual. Many Christians sadly pick on homosexuality. Fornication and adultery between man and woman is just as bad.

[pushit]

I don't know if I posted on this or not but I don't believe in sins to begin with. If homos want to get it on with each other I don't care... It isn't my business who does what.

[missedit]

Personally I don't believe homosexuality is a sin in any way. I mean according to religious lit I've read so is eating shrimp. I think if you want it to be a sin it is, that won't change but I mean people are losing religion now-a-days so it's not a big deal. Just think for those who are very religious in the bible days human sexuality was basically young people get married and have offspring, but as the years went by the "love" factor became the most important factor and with that came people admitting to being sexually attracted to the same sex. Take it how you wish, just dont judge.
-Peace

[aguest]

No it is not judgmental/homophobic. Obviously, not EVERY inclination in a human is to his personal good -- everyone knows that from personal experiences, I guess...

ryupower : I'm still inclined to think, that in the issues of HUMAN nature we cannot look for solutions in the realm of animals. The major difference is the superior gifts of consciousness, intelligence and free will, that differ us from animals. There are some obvious consequences thereof. Animals cannot control themselves -- and you CAN. They cannot rationalize -- and you CAN. They cannot analyze, cannot change the world around them, cannot understand the meaning of their lives -- and you CAN. So -- no way. Unless you want to be treated like an animal, which I'm sure you don't;-). So, I don't think we can use "numerous cases of homosexuality" among animals as a proof. And besides, which cases do YOU mean?...

So, intelligent creatures, we need reasonings, explanations, knowledge and wisdom... What do we find in the Bible? We find quite a bit, some of which we like, and some don't. Is homosexuality a sin? What is a sin? Why should I consider the very idea of sin at all??? OK, I mentioned the Bible being intelligent, and that leaves no space for any sort of dogmatism... But in order to agree or disagree, one should read the book himself.
As per the Bible, "sin" is using God's creation contrary to the Divine purpose, as such purpose is clearly seen to us intelligent creatures. In the light of this definition, even if we let alone God's punishment for sin, there is NO WAY sin could make us really happy.
Then, consider male/female sexual organs: they naturally fit together with a rather obvious purpose of childbirth, for one thing, and strong physical expressions of love between sexes being another clear purpose. So far the Divine purpose has been unveiled to us mere humans.

How does homosexual intercourse compare, it would be a good thing to ask? When two homosexuals come together, one of them has to assume a male/female role according to the need, using some "artificial substitutes" for what is naturally provided in a heterosexual intercourse.

Homosexual relations, however, are known to give a far greater intensity of sexual pleasure and strength of feelings, than the straight relations do. Is this the answer, then?... The Bible, among other things, advocates SELF-CONTROL as an inevitable component of human happiness, and warns against excessive sexual appetites, causing a man to lose control over his nature. That is to say, if we let go of our self-control in order to have more pleasure, then we are saying goodbye to something, which cannot be replaced with something else of the same value...
These are some points from the Bible, as they can be found at Romans chapter 1, plus some real life illustrations. But the choice is still ours, isn't it? Yet, for those, who are interested to know more from what the Bible has to say on the matter, there is actually more to it.

Genesis chapter 6, here we read about some angels (sons of the true God), who had noticed the daughters of men, that these were pretty, and started having sexual relations with them. It was possible, as God had given his angels the ability to materialize into male human bodies, in order to bring messages from Him to humans, for angel means messenger. But that mission by no means implied having sex with the daughters of men! The flood of Noah's days killed the giant offspring and evil humans, but it couldn't kill those angels. They had to dematerialize and are henceforth known as demons -- read briefly about it in Jude 6,7. Now the events of Jesus' life expose the existence and evil nature of demons. But they also show God's superior power over such creatures -- in case we resort to God's power.

So, why not spend some time trying to study this matter more deeply? After all, whatever pleasure we can derive from sexual relations (natural or unnatural), we humans will NEVER be happy without the true KNOWLEDGE of ourselves. There are many things in this world, which should not be. But the purpose of the Bible is -- to open up the way to God's support, if we don't want to put up with the wrong thing. ..... But what should I care about a book, that tells me what I DON'T LIKE TO HEAR? Well, if I was to heed only what I like to hear -- then I'd remain forever blind and deaf, in love with my own reflection in the mirror...

[yarapario]

^^

You sure used a lot of words to say that you think the bible means something...You probably spent a lot of time thinking about it. Guess you decided to believe it. Good for you. I've thought about it a lot too and the bible doesn't mean a damn thing to me. Do be careful to not try and stick your belief system on me or on gay folks in general. We don't want it or need it.

[aguest]

No, not at all. It was just for the poll's sake. Sorry, if that insulted you in any way -- I didn't mean that. And two times sorry for a lot of words -- this is my problem, he-he.

On the other hand, It would be interesting to learn what YOU think about it, if you are inclined to express your point of view. For example, you definitely has reasons why the Bible doesn't mean a thing to you... I respect that, too. But I'm really interested to know people's reasons, that is the only way how I could understand others.

[aguest]

Wow! This thread has been here for 4 years now! My... I just couldn't imagine, so I didn't care to look at the date there! I wonder if the starter of the poll is still watching it...

[yarapario]

The bible has been twisted and contorted to mean whatever the current powers, political or religous, want it to mean. Read John Boswell's book Christianity, Social Intolerance and Homosexuality. It's a milestone piece of work detailing the different twists of the bible by different dictators, church or state throughout the centuries.

I guess if someone wanted to give me a label I'd be real close to a Pagan who finds God in jungle, river, mountain or any place unspoiled. I also find God in the people I work with, or the animals I share space with. It goes far deeper for me but thats just my belief...and it works for me. When I sin my sins are against the earth itself or people if I hurt them. The Sun shines just as bright on me as a gay man as it does on you as someone who isn't gay. The touch of some one I love is every bit a potent for me as for you.

I lived in the jungle once and God told me that he hung out there a lot. He gave me some work while I was there and I did what he asked. Thats Holy Communion for me.

[aguest]

Thank you. Yes I must admit the Bible has been abused just so much, and I have no more empathy with the Church, than you do. Thankfully, I was granted a clear eye to distinguish between what they "say" about the Bible and what the Bible says itself. It is nothing strange, then, that for possessing and reading a Bible the Church would burn you alive back in the middle ages! ...So, in this world of unreliable information I, personally, value the Bible for what it IS.
Yea, jungle, river, mountain -- these are the places, where I can feel the Creator. I also noticed, that such places helped me to learn to trust the Creator and his power. Once I felt like being in a dead end, I was 18 then, and I came to that corner of the park, just to take a breath of fresh air... I needed support, and it was nowhere to be found at the time. And there , in that small peace of relatively untouched nature, I suddenly felt it! Felt his great love expressed in every blade of grass, and that he wants us all to be happy. Otherwise, why would he create such wonderful world, right? Why would he give us all those feelings and abilities?

But of course, there were things left to be understood, resolved, answered... Things, to which I couldn't find any answer just by observing the nature around me. And men around me -- they couldn't help much, for they were ready to swallow all the lies they were passing on to one another, without ever going beyond the surface...

[yarapario]

For me, God's handwriting is written large in the Jungle, deep in the River and high in the Mountain. What I read there makes sense, What I needed to do was made clear there. No man condemned me because of my Gay nature. No place has ever given me such peace and purpose as has the jungle. I have no need to claim someone else is a sinner because my beliefs don't require that. If another person sins, they'll know it. I don't need to proclaim it.

There are old men and women in the jungle who are teachers, spiritual guides. I've tried to learn from them. They know things that aren't talked about in western religions. And in the faces of those jungle kids I've seen the Children of God clearly.

For a lot of people western religions seem to work well. They follow their soul and live as if other people mattered. They don't waste much time trying to name my sins for me. That's what they need to do, live kindly according to the tenents of their faith...and respect the fact that I have found God in another place.

[aguest]

The bible is very unclear. It was written in different language(s), ages ago, in a different context, for an ancient people living in a reality totally foreign to modern day Western life. Translators over the centuries have in fact taken liberties with many phrases in the bible. I'm sorry, dear whichaxe, but obviously the Bible is being disliked JUST BECAUSE it is quite CLEAR on certain matters -- and that despite even the ancient languages and peoples it was "meant for". Didn't you actually mean this, eh?;-)))

There are many websites dedicated to the issues of error and interpretation in the bible.

Here is one decent site. At the very least, I believe that there is doubt when it comes to many bible issues stemming from translation. There is enough to cast a shadow of a doubt. And in my mind, that is enough to not believe in a literal scripture translation.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/Obviously, you didn't study the matter seriously enough, my friend. Otherwise you'd easily understand, that any doubt "stemming from translation" can be solved by comparing the passage in question with other passages of the Bible, which can settle all such doubts. Then the usage of the words can be compared with the usage of the same words in other passages, then compared with the usage of the same words in other documents of the same period. Then again, the contextual meaning must be compared with the general idea of the book -- you can't help that either.

There is only one way for you to make sure, that is to study the Bible yourself... But you are not going to, AFAIK. In such case, what do you care about the "error in the translation", man??? Just take courage to state it plain, that you don't like the Bible and hence not going to take it seriously. That would be honest and worth respect.

[aguest]

For me, God's handwriting is written large in the Jungle, deep in the River and high in the Mountain. What I read there makes sense, What I needed to do was made clear there. No man condemned me because of my Gay nature. No place has ever given me such peace and purpose as has the jungle. I have no need to claim someone else is a sinner because my beliefs don't require that. If another person sins, they'll know it. I don't need to proclaim it.

There are old men and women in the jungle who are teachers, spiritual guides. I've tried to learn from them. They know things that aren't talked about in western religions. And in the faces of those jungle kids I've seen the Children of God clearly.

For a lot of people western religions seem to work well. They follow their soul and live as if other people mattered. They don't waste much time trying to name my sins for me. That's what they need to do, live kindly according to the tenents of their faith...and respect the fact that I have found God in another place.

I can clearly see your point here, and I understand it, too. Me myself, I always believed that other people have nothing to do with what I am. They obviously could not help with my problems, so why should I grant them any right to judge the inside of my heart??
Of course I had to "comply" outwardly with their views to some extent, as it is impossible to war against the world. Unfortunately, you just CAN'T openly oppose the whole world. There will be found corrupt men with more experience, than yourself, and they will turn your "war" to their personal unclean benefit, while pretending to give "support". So I learned not to trust others and to scrutinize their possible motives by studying their words.
Therefore, the motives of the writers of the Bible can also be scrutinized. The real value and trueness of their words can also by verified, as they speak about truth, honesty, sincerity , modesty , humility and love. You cannot possible falsify such things without being exposed! So are the Church leaders and the Church goers. But this doesn't cast any shadow on the Scripture, which helps greatly those, who rely on it for help.

[yarapario]

Just a point of clarification...When I talk about Jungles and Rivers I'm not making some metaphorical reference. I actually mean the Peruvian Jungles along the Amazon River. That place is my Mecca, my Vatican, my Holy Land. The Shamans are the priests, their Spiritual Plants are the Communion Wafer/Wine. After six decades of life, that place, the most bio-diverse area on Earth, comforts me, strengthens me and humbles me in a way that nothing and nowhere else can. Thats where my seeking lead me.

Finding Purpose in life, finding God has always been my quest Ultimately that quest lead me to the very womb of the Earth, the Primal Garden. By the way there are a ton of serpents there but nary a one has ever said a damn thing about forbidden fruit, or any other sin...My kind of folks.

[aguest]

I'm glad you could find such place to your heart! My situation doesn't allow me right now to travel a lot, nor go to the places I'd like to go... Yes, I understood it right away that you were most likely talking about a certain place on this earth, where you spent some time of your life. Some real jungle. I can only "imagine", how it would feel... imagine from what I feel myself, when I get to the forest or field or any such places of untouched nature, as are available in my vicinity. Every little plant, when you look at it closer, speaks of the great wisdom of its Maker... The farthest I got recently was the North next to Finland, flora and fauna there is quite scarce. And the point about serpents...

I like serpents, don't know why. But none of them will talk to any of us, he-he! Just as you yourself brought out, neither serpents, nor any other creature is known to speak intelligent things -- only intelligent creatures like humans. However, the very things spoken through that "serpent" (by such intelligent creature) give away a lot about the roots of our human problems. The evil angel provoked the first humans to disobey their Maker, with the (false) hope of becoming "like God" in the end of it. So, many people believe that to be a revelation about our past, explaining a lot... Are we not trying to be "like God" in our efforts to live according to our OWN views and feelings?...

I mean... every phenomenon must have its explanation, you know. Also this one: with all this almightiness of the Maker and his great wisdom, as seen in his creation (including you and me), WHY can't he solve the problems of humans? Yes I know, it is "we must all together do this, or do that..."... OK. I don't believe the present humankind will ever be able to do any such thing "all together". But WHY did God allow all this to happen?? Or, how did humans find themselves in a situation, where we must suffer instead of being perfectly happy every second of our life? Just as perfectly happy, as perfect is the beauty of every creation of God, every little flower, every little insect? When we see such things, we feel it very strongly, that happiness must be somewhere here, not far away... But never have it that way! WHY?? These are the questions, for which the nature itself just couldn't give me answers.

Excuse me, please, but your idea about serpents just provoked this line of thoughts to come out like this... What seems like a laughable story to some, still makes a lot of sense to others. And in our search for truth we have to consider every possibility, right?

[yarapario]

with all this almightiness of the Maker and his great wisdom, as seen in his creation (including you and me), WHY can't he solve the problems of humans? Yes I know, it is "we must all together do this, or do that..."... OK. I don't believe the present humankind will ever be able to do any such thing "all together". But WHY did God allow all this to happen??

It seems you predicate you faith/belief on God being the almighty being described in the bible. For many years I did too...and met the same astounding disappointments you mention. I was a young Catholic boy, educated in a Catholic school...I completely accepted God as described in the bible. As I grew older I was able to more clearly look at Catholocism as a construct built around older religions, Pagan religions. At that point I chucked all notion of religion out the window as lies meant to control people not save them.

Without religion, my search for God was a lot cleaner. I looked within and without and found basic good in both places as well as the potential for what I consider as bad or even evil. The God that makes sense to me is the Earth and all its creatures. I don't expect "God" to intervene. My God doesn't do that. Everlasting reward in heaven...I don't know if that biblical notion translates over. The reward for being good is the satisfaction of doing good. The same for evil... you have to live with what you have done. I haven't really fleshed it out well enough to put into words. Basically my faith is a deep satisfaction with what I have and with no expectations that "God" is going to be directly involved in my life. My Prayers are the acts of kindness I give to the Earth or any of its creatures...my sins are the harm I do to those same.

I don't know is this makes any sense to you or not. It simply is my reaction to hearing the idea that being Gay might be a sin. Not by my definition.

[aguest]

I appreciate very much your openness on this subject, because I absolutely agree with you on Catholicism, as well as other "official Churches". They all stem from one root; and who was the founder?? The Roman emperor Constantine, who WAS a pagan himself and invented this "Christianity" in order to add some "cement" to then deteriorating Roman empire, the cement would be this "new" religion. So he took all them "good old" romano-greek religious traditions, and renamed them into "Christian" names... Thus, instead of Saturnalia fests "we" have ... Christ's Birth on December 25 (although the Gospels describe the time of his birth as early autumn, when the shepherds could spend the night with their flocks in the field)! And so on... So there is no need to look for their teachings in the Bible. Nor for the biblical teachings in the church.

EDIT, IN ORDER TO REDUCE THE QUANTITY OF THOUGHTS PER LINE:So, what you just said does make perfect sense to me, for I agree with the most of it. And yes, I've always been of the same opinion about the self-rewarding nature of good and bad. And like yourself, I never felt much sense about the concept of "sin" in this regard. Such views seem to be widely accepted in many cultures naturally, including the Greeks... But the concept of "sin" as some defect in human nature starts making sense, when we realize our "unpleasant" tendency to "make mistakes" and regret our own actions. I have tried, like many others, to "stop interpreting" my actions as "mistakes", but... it didn't work out the way I expected. Instead of peace of mind it brings about a feeling of moral degradation... Yet human nature implies moral satisfaction and self-respect as inevitable part of our happiness, does it not? At least, the Greeks, who taught the above stuff about the self-rewarding nature of the good, taught this also.

And there are questions, that need answers, still. I mean, OK, the cravings of our human heart about happiness and humanitarian values may not look possible "in the very near future"... But still this heart seems to be more "satisfied" with those unrealized dreams, then it would be by going all "realistic", content with the bare reality of "what you are and what you have". I mean, forests and nature help to soothe this strain and calm down the anxiety, but the heart doesn't want to rest "forever happy" in such state. It is craving for more; but who can give us "more", if not our Maker? We humans have proved capable of giving ourselves pains and problems. But the Maker of life -- can he not, perhaps, give us happiness to it? Or, help us to find it? And if he can, would we be ready to follow? I ended up with these questions, before I found good answers.

[meridianwest]

i think anyone who thinks anything is a sin is delusional and has a crooked understanding of life. there are no sins in this world. there's no good or evil. right or wrong. and no-one's viewpoint is better than the others'. people shouldn't even judge other people because their life experience is gravely different from theirs. they don't have the same frame of reference.

[aguest]

...people shouldn't even judge other people because their life experience is gravely different from theirs. they don't have the same frame of reference.

If we concentrate too much on the fact of other people judging us, it distracts our attention from our real personality and makes us concentrate instead on what other people say/think about us and our actions. Concentrate -- in order to prove them wrong. But what's the bid deal about their opinion? They have a bunch of problems to their own lives. And THIS is YOUR life, and your prompt need to understand what it is, in your own terms.

there's no good or evil. right or wrong.Is this just your answer to those who would judge your actions? Or, is this your verdict with regard to life in general?

I mean, we are humans and as such we KNOW there is good and there is evil. You don't need to deny this just in order to get rid of other people's judgments, really. I mean, if you have scratched your finger, there's no need to cut off the whole hand! ...Besides, we NEED other people's opinion in order to understand ourselves. Just filter out the "judgmental" element, and you will have a very good look from the outside on what you really are.

This denying of all good and bad is only throwing one into utter confusion. Are you telling me there is no sin in this world? Then, what do YOU call this world, my friend? Perhaps, you call it "A PERFECT HARMONY OF PEACE AND HAPPINESS"? Or what? "A WARM SHELTER OF LOVE AND UNDERSTANDING"? No. With all good intentions of all those, who cared more than just their OWN quite peaceful happy existence, this world is still full of suffering and evil.

And "sin" -- is not meant to be a tool to judge or torture other people. "Sin" is a word to explain the hidden cause of our human failures and sufferings. Just use the tool correctly, and everything will be fine. Sin is generally understood as our tendency to make mistakes, even while thinking we are 100% right. At your age of 25 you must have already experienced something like this! Admit, please, that this has nothing to do with "other people's judgments". It comes from within, it is our conscience.

[meridianwest]

If we concentrate too much on the fact of other people judging us, it distracts our attention from our real personality and makes us concentrate instead on what other people say/think about us and our actions. Concentrate -- in order to prove them wrong. But what's the bid deal about their opinion? They have a bunch of problems to their own lives. And THIS is YOUR life, and your prompt need to understand what it is, in your own terms.

i was replying to the original post. i haven't read any of the conversations going on here just that 1st post. so if you have any half-finished discussions going on here my post wasn't in association to those.

and in any case i agree with you. that's exactly what i was saying -- ppl shouldn't judge other people; you just looked at judging from a reactive POV whereas i talked about it as an act in general. and i said it because there are a lot of judgmental people who do that, and who think that their opinion is a universal law onto anyone else. personally i couldn't care less about what people think of me. i got over that when i was in high school. but i have met a lot of people who are grown up educated people and they have no integrity of mind to understand that their opinion is a subjective perception not a book of law.


Is this just your answer to those who would judge your actions? Or, is this your verdict with regard to life in general?

life in general.


I mean, we are humans and as such we KNOW there is good and there is evil. You don't need to deny this just in order to get rid of other people's judgments, really. I mean, if you have scratched your finger, there's no need to cut off the whole hand! ...Besides, we NEED other people's opinion in order to understand ourselves. Just filter out the "judgmental" element, and you will have a very good look from the outside on what you really are.

yeah, but you gotta understand that there is a difference between an opinion and a judgment. everybody has opinions and they have a right to like/dislike whatever and whomever they want. as an example --- a person who doesn't like black people. he has a right for his own opinion, it's his personal taste. if he doesn't like black people he doesn't like them. no one has a right to tell him that he is wrong and then call him a racist etc. it's when he let's say as an employer turns down a black applicant whom he would have hired had he been e.g. white that it ceases to be just an opinion.
a judgment is when a person thinks that his subjective taste/knowledge/etc is an authority in itself to go around and tell other people how they should live their lives. people who send their homosexual sons to "treatment" are like that; the DEA who continues to spread the myth of addiction and imprisons thousands of people who have done nothing more than just been in possession of a substance that they find some personal benefit from is like that. that's judgment. people who don't know anything about drugs and watch the government financed propaganda how one try at cocaine will immediately turn a person into a murderer and then they go to their friends and speak on and on about how all drug users are criminals and sick people ----- those people are the ones who judge. they've gone beyond just having an opinion. and their judgment has no basis whatsoever because they don't even know the subject they are forming an opinion about. they haven't read about the pharmacological action of cocaine/LSD/heroin/etc, its effects, or anything at all. they simply recycle what they heard from TV or some other non-scientific source.


This denying of all good and bad is only throwing one into utter confusion. Are you telling me there is no sin in this world? Then, what do YOU call this world, my friend? Perhaps, you call it "A PERFECT HARMONY OF PEACE AND HAPPINESS"? Or what? "A WARM SHELTER OF LOVE AND UNDERSTANDING"? No. With all good intentions of all those, who cared more than just their OWN quite peaceful happy existence, this world is still full of suffering and evil.

what i meant, maybe i should have been more clear, was that there is no universal good or bad, right or wrong. it's all subjective. what i perceive as good, someone else perceives and wrong. confusion starts when people think that what they perceive as wrong is wrong or should be wrong for everybody else. which is not so. and that's exactly what my core point in this discussion is. (for avoiding any stupid inferences: i'm not including murder, theft, and other such crimes under subjective wrongs. obviously, those are not subjective in their nature. drug use is one subjective 'wrong' i can bring as an example. for some people it's 'wrong' for others it's good'. like you see ---- it's subjective).

and i am not some blindfolded idealist so don't throw the perfect harmony bullshit at me.

i call this world an experience. you can make your life the way you want it to be. you will have your successes and you will make your mistakes. and then you go on.
the word sin denotes that a mistake is something negative, something to be avoided. i don't see it that way, maybe that's why i don't have a notion of sin as such. mistakes are just as much part of our lives as our successes. to me, it's all experiences. and these experiences are either subjectively negative or positive. but i don't have a conception of any act being something to be called a sin.

And "sin" -- is not meant to be a tool to judge or torture other people. "Sin" is a word to explain the hidden cause of our human failures and sufferings. Just use the tool correctly, and everything will be fine. Sin is generally understood as our tendency to make mistakes, even while thinking we are 100% right. At your age of 25 you must have already experienced something like this! Admit, please, that this has nothing to do with "other people's judgments". It comes from within, it is our conscience.

as i said ---- i don't have a conception of anything being a sin in the way the word is generally understood.

Merriam-Webster: sin:
1 a: an offense against religious or moral law b: an action that is or is felt to be highly reprehensible <it's a sin to waste food> c: an often serious shortcoming : fault 2 a: transgression of the law of god b: a vitiated state of human nature in which the self is estranged from god

[aguest]

Well, thank you for not taking too personally the somewhat "definite" tone of my post. It is just about being definite, and nothing else; just in order to show what I really mean and to put it as short as possible. You know, understanding is difficult even when you SEE your opponent; so much more when you don't. Hence -- my "enhanced" style.The words I use to show what I think to be erroneous, are just the words meant to emphasize what I think IS the "error"...

(for avoiding any stupid inferences: i'm not including murder, theft, and other such crimes under subjective wrongs. obviously, those are not subjective in their nature. drug use is one subjective 'wrong' i can bring as an example. for some people it's 'wrong' for others it's good'. like you see ---- it's subjective)As I can see, you still set apart a number of actions, which you WON'T exclude from the "undeniably bad" list, don't you? It is because you see it very clearly, HOW these are "not subjective" evils. Thereby you admit, you see, that some actions, although people may be doing them "from the heart", are WRONG things to do. That is a very interesting evidence to the fact, that our human heart can produce "wrong" things. Now this is part of what the Bible calls "sin".

As regards the definition of sin, I can't rely on Miriam Webster, for it just reflects the widely accepted usage of the word. Which deviates from the sense the Bible gives it. I will include here just a brief definition without quotations, as this forum is NOT about the Bible at all.

And if you go to the Bible (not to the "church") for more information, you will find it, that along with defining some particular ACTIONS as sin, it gives a definition of WHAT THE THING IS. The context gives the sense of "anything, that is NOT IN HARMONY with God's personality, standards, ways and will".The original language (both Hebrew and Greek) word conveys the meaning "to miss" or "not reach" the mark, the goal, the right point.

The orthodox and fundamentalists tend to forget, that his was written for, and must be used by those, who want to build their life and personality in harmony with their Maker's principles. And it really helps! BUT! It is BY NO MEANS supposed to be used to persecute one group of people by some other. Did not Jesus recommend to "stop judging" in order to escape from "being judged" in turn? He means, it is OUR personal decision. Want to serve God? Then you will want to learn more about His will and all things included... Want to do your own thing? It is still possible in this world and nobody has the right to restrict your freedom... unless "your own thing" would include one of those "not subjective" evils you so kindly mentioned;-).

Does this freedom mean, however, that what the Bible calls "sin" must be "redefined"? I see no reason to do so. If you follow the Bible, then these definitions help you to go in the right direction, to correct your steps, to chose your friends wisely and so on. If you don't -- then why not state that openly? It is not illegal today to say so, or live so. And then, for someone doing his own thing, there is NO such thing as "sin" -- for he himself is his own judge. That is, until life should prove it otherwise...

[Some call me Jim]

He believes that because he thinks we're all sinners and he accepts everyone as they are, he isn't judging anyone and his views aren't homophobic.




i think his point here is that ALL humans are sinners, and have been since they were kicked outta Eden, and the idea of life is to absolve yourself and get on God's good side. so... yeah he's non-judgemental.

but he's a christian so it doesn't matter what he says to me either way.



and if its relevant, i'm not straight.

[meridianwest]

As I can see, you still set apart a number of actions, which you WON'T exclude from the "undeniably bad" list, don't you? It is because you see it very clearly, HOW these are "not subjective" evils. Thereby you admit, you see, that some actions, although people may be doing them "from the heart", are WRONG things to do. That is a very interesting evidence to the fact, that our human heart can produce "wrong" things. Now this is part of what the Bible calls "sin".


yeah, it's true that i do see murder and theft as maybe universally wrong. but as much as i can think these are the only two acts i perceive as such. everything else is subjective and depending on the context.

by the way -- how would you define a murder being committed "from the heart"?

I'm an atheist, and i'm not familiar with the context or meaning the bible gives for 'sin'. also, i don't think that's how most people would define 'sin'. most people, at least most people i've met in my life, have an understanding of the word more or less how Merriam-Webster puts it.

and as i said --- i don't even have a conception of sin as such. to me, it seems to be an artificially trumped up term that people use to express their opinion on human behavior they don't agree with or understand and to lend their opinion more authority. you look more powerful when you say something is a sin than when you just call it wrong. but that's just what it is --- a wrong, and in majority of cases only a subjective wrong.

[aguest]

... by the way -- how would you define a murder being committed "from the heart"?

Well, our actions -- they originate from our hearts, in fact. Deep in our hearts we have our motives, many different motives. There we can find the real explanation to our strongest beliefs and most cherished ideas, some hidden motives, that influence the kind of persons we are and the kind of life we are living. In our hearts we also justify our actions, find some "sound" reasons in favour of certain actions. But first of all, our heart makes a decision; with this done, the heart can then find whatever "convincing" and "sound" reasons and judgments it takes to justify the decided action in the person's eyes. It is because of this strong power, that human heart is being treated by many as something "divine" or "holy". And yet Jesus said once, that "from the heart come fornication, murder, thefts and other things that defile a man". This is why, also, the book of Proverbs has this saying:"More, than anything that is to be guarded, safeguard your heart, for from it are the sources of life."

How about a murder, then? It is actually very difficult to kill a man; I mean, technically it is not, but it is extremely difficult to convince oneself, that such action must be taken, and then to do the thing with your own (or somebody else's) hands. There is a lot of evidence to it, also scientific studies. Such action cannot be taken, unless one should have VERY strong motivation in his heart -- nothing less than that can really make it.

... But I want to add something here, as we are touching this matter already. I've noticed how people treat their heart is something "holy", something "not to be touched" nor disputed. However, a careful study can unveil the SOURCES of all the motivations of our heart. We can, if we want to, investigate and find out, where our strongest convictions, empathies, all such life-shaping influences come from. It is usually from the people, who were around us since our childhood, and not at all "from God".

This being so, there is nothing wrong in rechecking all such things. When I was a child, certain things had a very strong influence on my heart, amplified through my love and respect for some people, all that forming a strong motivation that would mold my entire life. But I'm not a child any more! And however noble and loving those people have been, they were mistaken in many things. I can redefine my life and use my present wisdom to get rid of the harmful unwise things, that people implanted in me long time ago... So I think, the contents of our hearts need a very serious attention and critical approach, instead of being worshiped as an idol. God gave us the heart; but it wasn't God who gave us the contents thereof. Unless we ourselves filled our hearts with God's things out of free will;-).

[meridianwest]

How about a murder, then? It is actually very difficult to kill a man; I mean, technically it is not, but it is extremely difficult to convince oneself, that such action must be taken, and then to do the thing with your own (or somebody else's) hands. There is a lot of evidence to it, also scientific studies. Such action cannot be taken, unless one should have VERY strong motivation in his heart -- nothing less than that can really make it.



yeah i agree. even in self-defense it's not necessary to kill the person attacking you, you just have to render them incapable of harming you. which really leaves no loopholes for taking anybody's life and be OK with it.

and if somebody has somehow come to a conclusion that it's alright to kill people under certain pretexts that he finds satisfactory for the occasion (or to commit murder 'from the heart' as you defined it) it would seem more like that person has lost his mind. because the reasoning behind such a logic seems untenable. i don't think people who do this kind of thing for living even think that what they are doing is right, but they do it for the money or for whatever personal reason.

[aguest]

I read, that those professional killer teams, they learn not to think of the people they kill, as of real humans. So they do the killing systematically and effectively, but... much like zombie, you know...

So, our heart can produce bad and wrong things, like strong hatred and decision to kill a fellow-human. There are other bad things it can produce, which I hate none the less. It is when the heart shows desire or love for things, which I HATE.You know? I hate these things, but all of a sudden, MY HEART is letting me know, that IT LOVES what I HATE...

Could be well demonstrated with an illustration... For women it's usually a heavy trauma , when they get raped. But more pain can be added, if a woman had sexual pleasure during the act of rape... For many victims of rape this becomes cause of real hard psychological and emotional pain and problems. But something like that happens to many of us! When our heart shows strong attraction to what is actually degrading for our personality. What should be done then? "DO WHAT YOUR HEART WANTS"? Obviously, our heart can be a bad guide.

But obviously, it belongs TO US, and not to OUR HEART to make decisions about what is wrong and what is right. And if it belongs to us, then is it really wise to rely upon the heart in making these decisions?

[stayhigh]

NOT a sin.