Reality Filter

[Razorofoccam]

occam has what a stone does not...
And some fool wants to tell him he has nothing.


Occam

[Shane99X]

occam has what a stone does not...
And some fool wants to tell him he has nothing.


Occam
Could you elaborate please?

[Hikaru Zero]

Hikaru believes that Occam is referring to sentience.

Occam has sentience and a stone does not.
And some fool is trying to tell Occam that he does not have sentience.
When, by definition, Occam does have sentience.

At least, that was Hikaru's interpretation of it.

[Razorofoccam]

Hikaru believes that Occam is referring to sentience.

Occam has sentience and a stone does not.
And some fool is trying to tell Occam that he does not have sentience.
When, by definition, Occam does have sentience.

At least, that was Hikaru's interpretation of it.

Hikaru

Exactly

There are a whole lot of people posting here that say nothing can be known absolutely...
And for the individual this is mostly truth as far as occam can see.

Without refference to others perspectives..we are alone in a big and unforgiving world.

However we CAN interpret reality accurately...if we work together to do so. Reality comes apart when we as a race put our minds to it...
Through crossrefferencing and experiment...
We discover how this reality works...bit by bit..fact by fact...

But this is not seen by so many..who think we are helpless.

Occam holds the opposite position...

He thinks we are the most powerfull force in nature...
One day we will BUILD suns...and planetary systems.
We will have functional immortallity.
We will reveal the secret of consciousness.

All we have to do..is work out how to do it.
We are on the first step of a very long ladder to godhead
as the buddhists might term it...

Have faith in US....Occam does

Occam

[BlackGuardXIII]

He thinks we are the most powerfull force in nature...
One day we will BUILD suns...and planetary systems.
We will have functional immortallity.
We will reveal the secret of consciousness.

I disagree, we are freaks of nature, and have grown too big for our britches. Just like any other species that reproduces out of control, natural laws will reduce our numbers one way or another. I dont see us building suns, we cant even make a blade of grass, for petes sake!
reveal the secret of consciousness.
If the brain were so simple that we could understand it, we would be so simple we couldn't. Lyall Watson
the most powerful force in the universe is gravity, yet a baby lifting a spoon defeats it, but so what?
I like the native american view of the power to reason. It is a curse that separates us from nature and makes it much more difficult for us to live in harmony with nature.

[Sera Michele]

If the brain were so simple that we could understand it, we would be so simple we couldn't. Lyall Watson

That's a great quote. I agree with your point of view on the subject.

Our high intelligence has been a curse on us. Now we have stuff like mental disease, nuclear wepons, etc...We are living as far from natural as it gets.

Sometimes I wish we had a time machine.

[BlackGuardXIII]

Sometimes I wish we had a time machine.

we do, we just misplaced the keys.

[Hikaru Zero]

Or perhaps we haven't discovered where the key lies yet ...

[forest_pixie84]

blackguardxiii, wow that is a cool picture!

[Soulless||Chaos]

Perhaps we will advance indefinantly just never so much as to recreate ourselves, as we are more complex as we advance...

[Soulless||Chaos]

We will only ever be able to create independantly what we were, never what we are or will be...

[Hikaru Zero]

That may very well be true.

As the human mind is,
We are unable to understand it now.
As the mind evolves,
Perhaps we will unravel more of its mysteries.
By the time our mind evolves enough so where we can completely understand our minds,
Our minds will have changed dramatically,
And we will again seek understanding of our own minds. =)

[BlackGuardXIII]

thanx forest pixie, cute name. i have a bunch more in member galleries

[Soulless||Chaos]

That may very well be true.

As the human mind is,
We are unable to understand it now.
As the mind evolves,
Perhaps we will unravel more of its mysteries.
By the time our mind evolves enough so where we can completely understand our minds,
Our minds will have changed dramatically,
And we will again seek understanding of our own minds. =)
Exactly... Your worded it so much better than I :)

[BlackGuardXIII]

Originally Posted by BlackGuardXIII
If the brain were so simple that we could understand it, we would be so simple we couldn't. Lyall Watson


That's a great quote. I agree with your point of view on the subject.

Our high intelligence has been a curse on us. Now we have stuff like mental disease, nuclear wepons, etc...We are living as far from natural as it gets.

[TrippinBTM]

If the brain were so simple that we could understand it, we would be so simple we couldn't. Lyall Watson
the most powerful force in the universe is gravity, yet a baby lifting a spoon defeats it, but so what?
I like the native american view of the power to reason. It is a curse that separates us from nature and makes it much more difficult for us to live in harmony with nature.
Gravity is the weakest force in the universe, but it is the longest ranging. The electromagnetic force is far more powerful (it's harder to pull that spoon from a magnet, for example; this force is what makes matter feel solid) and the Strong Nuclear Force is even more powerful (but very very very short ranging, just works in atomic nuclei).

And I strongly disagree, the power to reason is what has kept us alive. The problem is that it's out of control because it's out of balance with it's opposite, intuition. Thought and feeling, yang and yin. Gotta get back to the harmony. But throwing out reason is like throwing out the yang, and I doubt that would be much better. We are thinking beings; face it.

[Hikaru Zero]

Gravity is the weakest force in the universe, but it is the longest ranging. The electromagnetic force is far more powerful (it's harder to pull that spoon from a magnet, for example; this force is what makes matter feel solid) and the Strong Nuclear Force is even more powerful (but very very very short ranging, just works in atomic nuclei).

And I strongly disagree, the power to reason is what has kept us alive. The problem is that it's out of control because it's out of balance with it's opposite, intuition. Thought and feeling, yang and yin. Gotta get back to the harmony. But throwing out reason is like throwing out the yang, and I doubt that would be much better. We are thinking beings; face it.

Gravity, being the weakest force known, is the perfect example for showing inaccuracies. Electromagnetic forces and strong nuclear forces are indeed stronger, and are likely even harder to accurately read.

[Shane99X]

Or perhaps we are no greater than a rat, dog, bacteria, virus or cattle... or even a stone.


What is so great about sentience?

Nobility, Honor, Love, Hatred, Cruelty, Humor...

In the end, what great advatage do we have over a roach?

[Hikaru Zero]

Or perhaps we are no greater than a rat, dog, bacteria, virus or cattle... or even a stone.


What is so great about sentience?

Nobility, Honor, Love, Hatred, Cruelty, Humor...

In the end, what great advatage do we have over a roach?

What is so great about sentience? Choice.

What great advantage do we have over a roach? Perhaps nothing, perhaps everything. But a roach should still be given the same basic rights as any other living being: most importantly, the right to live.

[Spiritforces]

Maybe we are given conscious to handle with sentience

The packed gift is not that easy to use,


But a sentience is because it is percieved, when percieved we define and are the witness of it,

One choose to feel its own sentience or?

What does Occam think about that?

[BlackGuardXIII]

What is so great about sentience? Choice.

What great advantage do we have over a roach? Perhaps nothing, perhaps everything. But a roach should still be given the same basic rights as any other living being: most importantly, the right to live.I give the advantage to the roach, they will outlast us, I am pretty convinced of that.

[Hikaru Zero]

I give the advantage to the roach, they will outlast us, I am pretty convinced of that.

Perhaps ... though I disagree. In the event of nuclear war? Yes.

But don't forget, humans have the ability to build underground strongholds so deep that nuclear war likely wouldn't phase them. And we can develop anti-radiation suits as well. At the very least, some people would survive and continue the human race ... just as roaches would.

Besides, advantages may not necessarily be physical. ;) I consider intelligence, even if it amounts to nothing, to be an advantage.

[BlackGuardXIII]

Perhaps ... though I disagree. In the event of nuclear war? Yes.

But don't forget, humans have the ability to build underground strongholds so deep that nuclear war likely wouldn't phase them. And we can develop anti-radiation suits as well. At the very least, some people would survive and continue the human race ... just as roaches would.

Besides, advantages may not necessarily be physical. ;) I consider intelligence, even if it amounts to nothing, to be an advantage.
I actually agree that we will continue, and I doubt that we will have a nuclear war. Insects, though, have a much longer track record.

[Hikaru Zero]

I actually agree that we will continue, and I doubt that we will have a nuclear war. Insects, though, have a much longer track record.

Aye, well, virii have a much longer track than insects do. ;) Yet, I would certainly believe I have an advantage over a virus. =P

[BlackGuardXIII]

you believe that humans will outlast virii?
You may be right, I don't know, but if we were setting odds based on previous longevity comparisons, the virii would be favoured.

[Hikaru Zero]

Well, virii are only so long in life because they are so vast in number; strength in numbers, I suppose.

Humans, on the other hand, are long in life not because they're vast in number, but because they have the ability to think enough to stop their numbers from declining and make their numbers last longer.

Whereas virii merely propagate.

Two methods of growth,
Yet one is limited.
Virii are born and they also die,
Never finding ways to prevent that death,
Yet humans are born, and they also die,
But we have ways to prevent death.
We have the ability to thwart divine essence,
And that is what makes us so unique,
And versatile.

And though virii may have the upper hand on us now ...
5000 years ago, they had much more of an upper hand than now,
And 5000 years from now, I suspect they will have less of an upper hand,
And less in the future beyond that,
To the point until humans' extinction just could not happen
Without divine intervention (if such exists).

[Razorofoccam]

Well, virii are only so long in life because they are so vast in number; strength in numbers, I suppose.

Humans, on the other hand, are long in life not because they're vast in number, but because they have the ability to think enough to stop their numbers from declining and make their numbers last longer.

Whereas virii merely propagate.

Two methods of growth,
Yet one is limited.
Virii are born and they also die,
Never finding ways to prevent that death,
Yet humans are born, and they also die,
But we have ways to prevent death.
We have the ability to thwart divine essence,
And that is what makes us so unique,
And versatile.

And though virii may have the upper hand on us now ...
5000 years ago, they had much more of an upper hand than now,
And 5000 years from now, I suspect they will have less of an upper hand,
And less in the future beyond that,
To the point until humans' extinction just could not happen
Without divine intervention (if such exists).
Hikaru

Wellmet my friend.

An excellent conversation...
Blackguard has gone for the Virii..the traitorous bastard...:)

Occam however sides with you...
And does not even agree that Virii are any sort of enemy...
Any more than the weather is.

Occam asks a question.. Who knows the percentage of our DNA
that is viral code introduced through adaption?
Occam has heard the percentage is significant.
If this is so.
Then is not viral [1/2]life a fundamental part of our make up.?


Occam

[Hikaru Zero]

Hikaru

Wellmet my friend.

An excellent conversation...
Blackguard has gone for the Virii..the traitorous bastard...:)

Occam however sides with you...
And does not even agree that Virii are any sort of enemy...
Any more than the weather is.

Occam asks a question.. Who knows the percentage of our DNA
that is viral code introduced through adaption?
Occam has heard the percentage is significant.
If this is so.
Then is not viral [1/2]life a fundamental part of our make up.?


Occam

Blackguard going for the virii? Nah. I was the one who introduced virii to the conversation; Blackguard is just making a fair point. =)

I haven't heard anything about our DNA structures being made up partially of viral code, if such exists. To my knowledge, viral code is different from DNA and contains different molecules that make up the bonds; they enter a cell, use the cell's resources to create more virii, and then the cells die and the virii move to other cells. Since all infected cells die, I do not see how a transfer of DNA is likely ... though I won't dismiss the prospect as impossible. I just have never heard of such a thing.

If this is true, then perhaps viral half-life is indeed part of our make-up. But then, are we not just "supervirii" who have the powers of many kinds of virii, and many more abilities on top of that which virii don't have? That being said, I still believe that we have the advantage over virii, even if our numbers have not yet reached the level of virii.

That advantage being, we don't need exposure to a yellow sun in order to use our powers of reason. ;) And no weakness to kryptonite. (laughs)

[Razorofoccam]

Blackguard going for the virii? Nah. I was the one who introduced virii to the conversation; Blackguard is just making a fair point. =)

I haven't heard anything about our DNA structures being made up partially of viral code, if such exists. To my knowledge, viral code is different from DNA and contains different molecules that make up the bonds; they enter a cell, use the cell's resources to create more virii, and then the cells die and the virii move to other cells. Since all infected cells die, I do not see how a transfer of DNA is likely ... though I won't dismiss the prospect as impossible. I just have never heard of such a thing.

If this is true, then perhaps viral half-life is indeed part of our make-up. But then, are we not just "supervirii" who have the powers of many kinds of virii, and many more abilities on top of that which virii don't have? That being said, I still believe that we have the advantage over virii, even if our numbers have not yet reached the level of virii.

That advantage being, we don't need exposure to a yellow sun in order to use our powers of reason. ;) And no weakness to kryptonite. (laughs)
Hikaru

You may be quite correct... but do not retrovirii create a DNA copy of it's RNA coding using reversetranscriptase..
Occams information base to understanding this field is sketchy at best. He is more into physics [and metaphysics :)]

However,,this is a minor point...
As you say,, we have an advantage over Virii that Virii can never overcome...
Consciousness.

We can plan ahead.

Occam