Dead Lovers (And Other Sad Tales)

[PoetDude39]

You know.... I've been thinking about Kevin. He was my first lover. And he died young.

[Snowdancer]

Strange, it's things like this that make me think that Jung was absolutely correct about a collective conscience. The time frame you speak of was about the same timeframe I came out originally & just like you I had a lot of good times. Enjoyed the company of many wonderful people. Unlike you I never had a steady relationship with any one guy. That doesn't mean that I don't have ghosts. The one that has been haunting me lately is of a wonderful man who I only got together with a couple of times but I really enjoyed his company each time we spent time together. He was witty, gentle & Kind. I met him when I wasfirst coming out & I think he could sense it & let our friendship grow, never pressuring me to go any farther than I wanted to at the time. Consequently we never really did the deed but had good times together. I today kind of wish I had but I just wasn't ready. soon after tht I did go all the way for the first time with a man &, sadly I didn't go back to him. About a year after that he was murdered by some homophobic creep in the back entrance to the Madison Civic Center. They are remodeling that building just now. At that time there was an adult bookstore between this entrance & State Street. That building is now torn down leaving naked the entrance where my friend was killed. I go by there fairly often & somehow that torn down building has lain open the memory of his friendly smile, his cute curley hair, his casual sophification ,the sound of his voice. I can't say that I blame myself for his death but like many things I wonder what if I had carried on our friendship deeper. Would he, maybe, not be at that place just then I don't know....

I do have other friends who are no longer in this life because they contracted AIDS. A couple that I had relations with, very unprotected. Why I was never infected myself, I don't know. We never used condoms, Safe sex meant that we were doing it in a place where we weren't going to have people bothering us while we were playing. HELL, YES! I feel guilty. Why did these wonderful men end up dead & I am nearly unscathed? Fate, I guess.

Thank you for posting your wonderful message. It is nice to meet another survivor & thiking of my old friends.

[PoetDude39]

SD~thanks for your kind and intelligent response! I'm sorry to hear about your friend..... that does sound like a rough thing to think about. The world is a scary place sometimes, huh? I mean, part of the reason I gave up drinking is because I briefly met one of the victims of the notorious Jeffrey Dahmer. And I actually got drunk once or twice at the same bar where Dahmer met this sweet young man (in Chicago), and invited him back to his place. That is a real wake up call! I really have been very lucky.

I've read a little Jung, but I must confess to you that I'm not a big expert. I did watch that totally cool program recently on Freud and C.S. Lewis. Did you see that? Actually, I guess I would classify myself as a secret intellectual. I mean, I really do read and write a lot. But I never finished college, and really have no desire to return. This is sorta strange for me now. To be openly talking about queer stuff so openly. I've visited a lot of forums before, but seem to have gone back in the closet! That's another odd thing I can't figure out. I was such a radical queer dude when I was still quite young. Now my sexuality seems like such a small thing to me. I'm more into all the spiritual stuff these days. Just trying things on (Zen Buddhism, etc.). How about yourself? Well, I'd best get going here. I really do appreciate your kind words much! It's totally cool to chat with somebody so openly and honestly again...

~PoetDude

P.S. Sometimes I feel like I survived because I am supposed to tell their stories (all the ones taken by AIDS). Do you ever feel like that?

[Snowdancer]

I kind of took solice in the fact that I was older than Jeffery Dahmer. I also was pretty much back in the closet in 91 & I have yet to go to GLBT bars in Milwaukee. I missed that chance on many fronts.

I know about Jung from my early years when I was still working out what I wanted to do with my life & was in college planing on being a psyhologist. Jung had some interesting concepts & of course was Freud's heir apperent. It was partly Jung that brought me to Eastern philosophy & religious thought.
I just had another look @ Jung theory & in fact I quoted it wrong. It is collective unconscious.

Jung said, "The part of the psyche that makes his theory stand out from all others: the collective unconscious. You could call it your "psychic inheritance." It is the reservoir of our experiences as a species, a kind of knowledge we are all born with. And yet we can never be directly conscious of it. It influences all of our experiences and behaviors, most especially the emotional ones, but we only know about it indirectly, by looking at those influences."

If you are inte5rested ther eis a pretty good write-up on this page:
Jung (http://www.ship.edu/~cgboeree/jung.html)

I still think that there is a relationship though. There have been many times that I have been thinking of something & talk with someone, even someone that I have never talked with before & they are thinking much the same thing.

You mention that you have quite a bit moved into the closet. If you have read my blathering on this board you can see that I spent quite a few years in the closet. Like from 1988 to Spring 2003 when a co worker outed me at work. Gods I am happy she did. It was such a liberating experience. There was so much that I was holding in because I didn't want people to know I was bi. Once that was out I have been able to be my true self again. I wasn't openly vocal about GLBT rights when I was out the first time, which is ironic because I one of the first men I dated & the very same one who has held a place in my heart ever since was very much so. Now I am though. That is how I got outed. I had gone to a Day of Silence Rally & my co-worker who was treasurer of GLSEN congratulated me on getting my picture in the local paper & supporting the students in the hallway amidst 2 of our other coworkers. One of them asked me about it & I kind of said it was a rally about equality but it was a watershed moment.

I'm rambling again, sorry....

I think that as we age sex becomes less important. It may be part of the primal instinct thing where the strongest procreate more. Our ancestors at that time would be likely dead by their 20's so by your 40's you would be an old coot. I don't know, I'm way jacked up on coffee right now & autotyping. It is an interesting concept though.

Hey you mentioned Chicago.. Are you still there? I used to get there about yearly but still go there once in a while. I like Chicago. I have had some fun times there. A lot of chance for a variety of things to do a variety of scenes to get into. It was the first "Big City" that I practiced my fashion freedom in.

SD~thanks for your kind and intelligent response! I'm sorry to hear about your friend..... that does sound like a rough thing to think about. The world is a scary place sometimes, huh? I mean, part of the reason I gave up drinking is because I briefly met one of the victims of the notorious Jeffrey Dahmer. And I actually got drunk once or twice at the same bar where Dahmer met this sweet young man (in Chicago), and invited him back to his place. That is a real wake up call! I really have been very lucky.

I've read a little Jung, but I must confess to you that I'm not a big expert. I did watch that totally cool program recently on Freud and C.S. Lewis. Did you see that? Actually, I guess I would classify myself as a secret intellectual. I mean, I really do read and write a lot. But I never finished college, and really have no desire to return. This is sorta strange for me now. To be openly talking about queer stuff so openly. I've visited a lot of forums before, but seem to have gone back in the closet! That's another odd thing I can't figure out. I was such a radical queer dude when I was still quite young. Now my sexuality seems like such a small thing to me. I'm more into all the spiritual stuff these days. Just trying things on (Zen Buddhism, etc.). How about yourself? Well, I'd best get going here. I really do appreciate your kind words much! It's totally cool to chat with somebody so openly and honestly again...

~PoetDude

P.S. Sometimes I feel like I survived because I am supposed to tell their stories (all the ones taken by AIDS). Do you ever feel like that?

[PoetDude39]

SD~I rather like your longish replies. So don't worry about it. I'm glad you managed to come out of the closet. I think everyone deserves that kind of freedom. For myself..... I guess I sorta decided to keep my sexuality hidden again (I was totally OUT for more than ten years in Chicago) because I moved to a much smaller town a few years back. I'm no longer in Illinois. And the people here are still rather old fashioned (even though they claim to be otherwise!). So I felt sorta vulnerable when I first moved here, and have been apart from any kind of queer community for several years now.

But I went through a few intense moments in Chicago. I can remember walking down the street with Keith one bright and early afternoon. We were in the heart of the queer area, so I figured it would be cool to hold his hand as we walked. Well, a bunch of young dudes in a car suddenly started hollering "Faggots" at us. Then somebody tossed a bottle. But I refused to let go of Keith's hand. I can remember thinking what a crass and dangerous world we live in. When two dudes holding hands in broad daylight can bring about a moment of violence like that. When the Matt Shepard tragedy happened a few years after that.... my heart went out to him in such a big way. Because I understood a little bit of the fear he must have felt. And I think all these kinda events just sorta made me decide to play it as safe as I can. Because it takes much more than safe sex to be a survivor now, huh? You also have to accept that homophobia is still very much alive and kicking in this country, etc.

Anyway, I will try and take a peek at some more of Jung's work soon. I like much of what you said about him. (I'm just curious now. Do you often go out in public in "female" clothes? And has anything bad happened? Are you not afraid?) I guess you are a braver man than most! I admire that quality a lot....

Peace,

~PD

[Snowdancer]

I haven't worn "guy's pants" since last Winter. I nearly entirely wear skirts or dresses occassionally] a sarong or kilted skirt which most take for a kilt when I'm not in bike shorts. I wore a denim skirt to help a friend move about 2 months ago & generally haven't had need to wear things like jeans. I still keep them around for if I'm going to be working on the car or something like that. I also wear leggings when it gets way cold.

These days I don't see it as drag like I used to. It is more like wearing cloths that fit who I am, is comfortable, is sexy. All my life I have often been mistaken for female even when I was very young & my Mom insisted that I had a "proper boy's haircut" ( think Beaver Cleaver) As you see now my hair is a "proper hippie's haircut" ;) it also works well with being genderqueer.

I was just talking with a gay gentleman who is transitioning here from Chicago. He & his Partners are moving because Madison is less homophobic. He in fact commented that they were harrased very similar to how you were holding hands walking down the street.

Then again there is my murdered friend. If I remember right though the killer actually came to Madison with the intention of finding a gay to kill. Sick Sick Sick.

I haven't felt in danger myself. I haven't run into a lot of real problems either. I have had teens giggling & once in a while have had someone yell Fag out their car window but I have never felt that I had to defend myself or anything like that. I am trained in martial arts so that may help my confidence some which in turn will help thwart problems before they can happen not to mention that I am rarely in a situation where I would be attacked. If I am walking at night I don't let people very near me, crossing the street when they are coming things like that, staying in well lit areas. The usual general safety kind of things.... Besides I do look quite female if I am to believe how many people call me Ma'am. It is fairly understandable if they can't see my lack of breasts (well, ok, I could be a 38 almost AA if you consider my pectoral muscles) My waist is around 30", depending on if I've been doing my workouts or how much I've eaten but never over 32" since I have been on top of working out. My hips are 39.5. That puts the waist/hip ratio (.77) in the range of possible female which is in general 0.8 or less, guys are usually more like 0.95 or less.

Anyhow, I hope you can find your way back out of the closet. I know it is comfortable in the closet but for me I always felt unfulfilled & somewhat untrue to myself.

[Duncan]

I moved out of my parents' home in 1979 and by 1980 the "gay cancer" known as GRID (gay related immune deficiency) had already been brought to public attention.


While I was only 19 or 20 during those years, many of my friends were in their early 30s. I recall loosing touch with people and then having the dreaded letters returned, phone numbers disconnected or--on a rate occasion--calling the house when one of the bereaved family is there.

I guess one of the harder parts about loosing gay friends is that so often when our relationships change in nature, we feel the need to turn our backs on these same people. If I love a person I make a point of telling him that each time. It doesn't matter if I hear it back.

Thanks for talking about the loves you've lost.

[PoetDude39]

I haven't worn "guy's pants" since last Winter. I nearly entirely wear skirts or dresses occassionally] a sarong or kilted skirt which most take for a kilt when I'm not in bike shorts. I wore a denim skirt to help a friend move about 2 months ago & generally haven't had need to wear things like jeans. I still keep them around for if I'm going to be working on the car or something like that. I also wear leggings when it gets way cold.

These days I don't see it as drag like I used to. It is more like wearing cloths that fit who I am, is comfortable, is sexy. All my life I have often been mistaken for female even when I was very young & my Mom insisted that I had a "proper boy's haircut" ( think Beaver Cleaver) As you see now my hair is a "proper hippie's haircut" ;) it also works well with being genderqueer.

I was just talking with a gay gentleman who is transitioning here from Chicago. He & his Partners are moving because Madison is less homophobic. He in fact commented that they were harrased very similar to how you were holding hands walking down the street.

Then again there is my murdered friend. If I remember right though the killer actually came to Madison with the intention of finding a gay to kill. Sick Sick Sick.

I haven't felt in danger myself. I haven't run into a lot of real problems either. I have had teens giggling & once in a while have had someone yell Fag out their car window but I have never felt that I had to defend myself or anything like that. I am trained in martial arts so that may help my confidence some which in turn will help thwart problems before they can happen not to mention that I am rarely in a situation where I would be attacked. If I am walking at night I don't let people very near me, crossing the street when they are coming things like that, staying in well lit areas. The usual general safety kind of things.... Besides I do look quite female if I am to believe how many people call me Ma'am. It is fairly understandable if they can't see my lack of breasts (well, ok, I could be a 38 almost AA if you consider my pectoral muscles) My waist is around 30", depending on if I've been doing my workouts or how much I've eaten but never over 32" since I have been on top of working out. My hips are 39.5. That puts the waist/hip ratio (.77) in the range of possible female which is in general 0.8 or less, guys are usually more like 0.95 or less.

Anyhow, I hope you can find your way back out of the closet. I know it is comfortable in the closet but for me I always felt unfulfilled & somewhat untrue to myself.

Hey, sorry I didn't respond sooner. But I ended up doing a thread about how come so many men hate cats (over in another section here), and I ended up getting close to 60 comments! :eek: So I'm trying to be polite, and respond to as many folks as I can, etc. Never expected such a casual topic to take off like that!

Anyway, thanks for your thoughtful reply. I learned a lot of new things about you. I am sorta impressed that you are able to go around in the "female" clothes 24/7, and nobody messes with you in any big sort of way. I think I would be way too scared to try something like that. Plus I would look kinda silly. I'm just too tall, and don't really look anything like a woman. Although I was reminded of how I used to be told I was pretty enough to be a girl. Up until I reached 14 or so. I used to have very long hair, etc. Even had straight guys trying to pick me up! :eek: But all that soon changed once I turned 15, etc.

I'm glad you are able to defend yourself. You know, Quentin Crisp nearly got killed a couple of times in England. And he didn't even wear a skirt or dress! Just lots of make-up, plus he was totally effeminate, etc. But I guess that was a very long time ago. I hope things are better now. But you wonder when you hear about things like what happened to Matt Shepard. There are some very disturbed folks on the loose. I guess that's why I'm more careful now. I really should have had something bad happen to me when I was still quite young. I just took way too many risks. I would get drunk and go home with complete strangers. Just totally stupid behavior. I can't believe I was ever that naive. I feel very lucky to still be alive. So maybe that's why I've gone to the other extreme now?

But please be careful! I'm glad you are comfortable with who you are. That is a very noble thing. And it's one of the reasons I respect Quentin Crisp so much (do you know his work?). I admire true individuality much more than conformity. Even though I do seem to attract a lot of conservatives. Not really sure why that is. Opposites attract maybe? Chicago can be dangerous. It's a big city. And I'm sorta glad I left there. But it will always be my home. I was born and raised there. So I may go back one day. But probably not until I am much older, and even more forgetful. I think you are a really cool person.

Peace,

~PD :)

[PoetDude39]

I moved out of my parents' home in 1979 and by 1980 the "gay cancer" known as GRID (gay related immune deficiency) had already been brought to public attention.


While I was only 19 or 20 during those years, many of my friends were in their early 30s. I recall loosing touch with people and then having the dreaded letters returned, phone numbers disconnected or--on a rate occasion--calling the house when one of the bereaved family is there.

I guess one of the harder parts about loosing gay friends is that so often when our relationships change in nature, we feel the need to turn our backs on these same people. If I love a person I make a point of telling him that each time. It doesn't matter if I hear it back.

Thanks for talking about the loves you've lost.

Duncan~thanks for your nice comment. (BTW, I think you have a cool name.) Yeah, those early days of AIDS (GRID, ARC, etc.) were some very scary ones. Two people really stand out for me. They were like Greek gods. I thought they were perfect. I used to watch them dance in the clubs, and wish I could be just like them. Just a couple of totally popular dudes. I sorta admired them from a distance. And within 2 years time.... I discovered both of their obits in Gay Chicago magazine. Both dead before they even turned 30. It was totally sad. And the bars never really seemed the same to me after that.

I've lost count of how many folks I knew that are dead now. Apart from those two beautiful dudes I just mentioned, I lost the one great love of my life (Keith). And remember Ryan White? Not too many folks talk about him anymore. And I remember how "shocked" everyone was when the truth about Rock Hudson finally came out.

There is much good news though. I watched a program recently about how certain folks cannot contract the virus. No matter how many times they might come in contact with it. There's a natural immunity that a few lucky folks are born with. And many people are living long lives now, even though they've been diagnosed with full-blown AIDS. I think that is so awesome. I just wish Keith could have lived long enough to see all the wonderful progress. Thanks for taking a peek at my humble little "lost loves" thread. And for your very kind comment. It's really cool to talk about this stuff with people that understand where I am coming from, etc.:)

Peace,

~PD :sunglasse

[Snowdancer]

I always have had my bumpers out a little farther in any big city. Chicago obviously included. Reading your comments & remembering the conversation I had with that guy who has just moved from there I am starting to wonder if it is more prevailent than other places. I was also just thinking of you & your writing on the subject earlier tonight. On the TV show ER two of the traumas were victims of gay bashing, 1 died. Their friend said, "No one should die for a kiss" Appearently they had been kissing in a park when idiots came up with tire irons & attacked them. OK, that was a fictional TV show that happens to take place in Chi Town but sometimes they work on things from the news. Do you know the statistics?

[PoetDude39]

SD~I don't know the exact stats. But when you think about some of the most infamous serial killers, and how they used to haunt Chicago looking for gay victims: John Wayne Gacy, Jeffrey Dahmer, and another very weird dude named Larry Eyler (and that's just starting from 1978. I'm certain there were many more before that, etc.).... it's pretty clear that Chicago is not the safest place in the world for a gay person to be.

Actually, I had one or two other close calls (apart from the one with Keith), but I tend to blame myself for those because I was still drinking then. I somehow got talked into going to this straight bar one time, and since the owner of the bar was actually a gay man himself.... a lot of the straight dudes were acting really friendly and everything when the owner was close by, but trashing him every time he would walk away, etc. I finally got fed up with it, and confronted one of the more obnoxious dudes. He had been joking with some of his buddies about how we all were probably gonna catch AIDS from the drinking glasses there. Everyone thought it was very clever, and laughed at his stupid logic and "humor". So I chimed in that it took a lot more than casual contact to contract AIDS. And I'd never heard of anybody catching it from a dirty glass before.

Well, the dude did not like his intelligence being challenged like that, and he asked me (quite loudly) was I a faggot or something? I looked him right in the eye and answered yes. All of a sudden, around five dudes "escorted" me outta the place, and told me never to come back there again. That faggots were not welcome. So I told them that they better let the owner know then. Because he was quite openly gay himself. (In fact, I suspect he'd slept with at least half of the "straight" dudes there. He was rather wealthy, and would hand out cash and free drinks to younger guys he thought were good looking).

Well, these pissed off dudes started pushing and shoving me, and so I finally decided to just walk away from there, and never look back. But they decided to follow me. I kept on walking, and they kept on following. For another block or so. Then they started hollering out a bunch of homophobic trash, and throwing beer bottles at me. That's when I decided I'd best make a run for it, but they continued to chase me for several blocks. I finally found a spot to hide under some steps in a back yard. And I ended up staying there till the sun finally came up a few hours later. Because the crazy dudes continued to look for me. They kept shouting and making threats even after I had found a safe place to conceal myself. Nobody called the police. I might have been killed out there, and it was almost as if nobody gave a damn. So that's the kind of danger and risk you might find for yourself if you are an out of the closet queer in Chicago. I really am a totally lucky dude. And I sure don't wanna tempt fate anymore than I have already done.

Peace,

~PD