Thought Control

[Spiritchalist]

Education is but a set of close-minded boundaries imposed upon us, to control the ways in which we may think, and how we perceive, set down by the self-proclaimed elite, fearing the uncontrollable.

[Bl4ck3n3D]

The current education system does not teach one how to think, but what to think.

I believe the education system is set up in a way that restricts children's inner self, kid's are almost treated as if they are criminals.

The education system pounds facts and information into you whilst teaching you not to question what your told. The education system, represses freedom and creativity in children. In place is a curriculum designed to prepare one for the 9-5 life style.

The current education system is meant to prepare one for entry into the modern society of repetitive slaving for wealth and material gain.

[Maitereya]

i agree with ^ that guy.

its set up that way because that is how the system works.

as for thought control that is another issue. but i can see how the education system is a way to mold minds, for better or worse.

[Any Color You Like]

I agree entirely with what Bl4ck3n3D said. I might add that by teaching students what to think, without giving any importance to how to think (curiosity, creativity, etc.) students learn a way to think... and that is a cynical, a materialist, a ''grade = money = happiness'' way to think.
And that is natural, because that is the simplest way to ''survive'' in the modern academic and professional world....unfortunatly!

[Topher D.]

exactly, all you are tought in school is to be a hard worker, so you get good grades, so you make it in to a good college, so you get a good job, so you can make lots of money, so you can be a greedy bastard, because material items = happiness. AND IF YOU SHALL FAIL AT ANY OF THESE STEPS IN THIS PROCESS, YOU MIGHT AS WELL GIVE UP IN LIFE BECAUSE THERE IS NO PLACE IN SOCIETY FOR YOU.

and they teach this to KIDS!

The easily manipulated, and sufficently controlled.

i can agree that its teaching us how to think because ive only met a handful of people who DONT think this way. who know that material posessions dont mean shit. and half of the people that think like i do are over the age of 50 and have years of wisdom and experience that freed them from the "conformed" way of thinking.

[Any Color You Like]

But is it an ''elite'' that imposed this upon us? Or is it rather society that is imposing this to itself?
I personnally don't think this way of thinking comes from the top. After all, the riches and powerful are the one that are the most trapped in this quest for material wealth and futile power. It's more psychology than politics, in my opinion.

The individual is tempted to give in to the simplest, most available solution that calms his fears and insecurity. Yet, there is passion for life beneath the fear!

[Topher D.]

Its society. the competitive nature of the incompetent. the urge to keep up with the jones'. its not about mere survival anymore. its about laziness and material posessions ruling our lives. no one wants to put in a hard days work anymore plowing the fields and milking the cows, they want to go sit behind a computer for eight hours and go to wally-world and pick up a gallon of milk and some corn.

[opel diamond]

i learnt stuff besides how to be a good worker for the future in school.

i learnt about the goings on in history, how to read and write and do maths. how to do scientific experiments and play sports. and how to be a social being and make friends and build relationships. i also learnt how to rebel against school systems and take lots of drugs. if school was that much of a mind control, surely these things would never happen. and without attending school, i think i personally wouldnt even have the ability to sit here and type this out as noone around me personally would have had the time to teach me what the education system has.

just my two cents.

[Topher D.]

no one said they are sucessful at it. and no one said that its their main objective. yeah, there are things you should be taught just to simply survive, and school has done that, but its also a corrupt system with underlying tones of conformity.

[opel diamond]

is learning how to conform a bad thing necassarily?

[Topher D.]

yes. yes it is. why would you want to be like every other ignorant human being fueling the corporate machine, further enslaving yourself. you put your money into corporations, corporations fuel the government, the government controls us. we are fueling control.

[opel diamond]

so are you personally succesful at avoiding this control and conformity? if not and you know its a bad thing how will you change it so you no longer conform? :)

[Topher D.]

I am working at it actually. as i am still a senior in high school, its hard to maintain a non-corporate lifestyle and go to school full time. But as soon as i graduate, living in a camper, growing my own food, making my own clothes, selling my wares, basically just getting out of society's machine.

[odon]

I am working at it actually. as i am still a senior in high school, its hard to maintain a non-corporate lifestyle and go to school full time. But as soon as i graduate, living in a camper, growing my own food, making my own clothes, selling my wares, basically just getting out of society's machine.

Good for you. But if we all tried to live like that we would be totally fucked.
If you want a none coporate lifestyle you can't sell anything.

[Topher D.]

of course i can sell things, im not a corporation. im not even a business owner. my income is non-taxable. my money isnt going to any corporations. its going to my survival.

[opel diamond]

I am working at it actually. as i am still a senior in high school, its hard to maintain a non-corporate lifestyle and go to school full time. But as soon as i graduate, living in a camper, growing my own food, making my own clothes, selling my wares, basically just getting out of society's machine.

if your selling things surely thats just the same on a smaller scale? making money to live.....thats all any of us are doing, theres just different methodso doing it.

with no conformity what so ever, what advancement would there be....if einstein never learnt where would we be today, same as newton and all other educated people who have shaped the way we live. also with no conformity, who would care for the sick, or the mentally ill if everyone assumed the sort of life style you suggest for yourself? if none of bought in and conformed to society, and just let natural selection run its course, whos to say we would even be here now? the state has its uses as does conformity on a scale.

as with everything its got to be within a sensible limit and within reason.

[Topher D.]

Im not doing the same, because on a small scale, i have no control over the government whatsoever. nor would i want it.

And to say that making money to stay alive is conforming is like saying that breathing is conforming. of course your going to need some kind of currency to stay alive. im not saying that i am completely going off the grid. obviously if i break my arm or have a heart attack, im going to need money to pay the doctor to stay alive.

im not saying my lifestyle is for everyone. im saying that i do not feel like being responsible for the downfall of personal freedoms.

[odon]

of course i can sell things, im not a corporation. im not even a business owner. my income is non-taxable. my money isnt going to any corporations. its going to my survival.

I'ts a fair point I suppose.
Just seems at odds with the lifestyle.
I just think if your going to be self sufficient it has to be total and NO crutches. No caveats.

[opel diamond]

but if you are suggesting that conforming to society is always a bad thing as you said previously, surely you would condone everyone to break away from the system? people doing bad things are always advised to do the right thing. and if your ideas about conformity is right and everyone took the same view of that, in your eyes would that be a good thing? if not, you obviously dont mind the conformity that much and are happy for others to conform in case you are ever in need of a service that would not be provided without people playing taxes and following a goverment system.

[Topher D.]

i have my ideas for an ideal society. however, trying to impliment this, would be pointless. so i am dropping out of society as well as possible.

[opel diamond]

well best of luck with it.

[Any Color You Like]

Conformity, in itself, is not the problem. But before conforming to something, you have to think about what you're conforming to and what it implies. And let yourself the choice not to conform if it's against your self or if you see it causes suffering and destruction.

[sunyatasamsara]

The current education system does not teach one how to think, but what to think.

I believe the education system is set up in a way that restricts children's inner self, kid's are almost treated as if they are criminals.

The education system pounds facts and information into you whilst teaching you not to question what your told. The education system, represses freedom and creativity in children. In place is a curriculum designed to prepare one for the 9-5 life style.

The current education system is meant to prepare one for entry into the modern society of repetitive slaving for wealth and material gain.

That's what I was goin to say but you said it better.

[heywood floyd]

Ummmm... no offense, but if you don't think we should be preparing kids for 'repetitive slaving for wealth and material gain', then exactly what do you think should be happening at schools? I mean, you're making some pretty bold negative statements about education, so I assume you have an alternative solution?

Most people in this world have 9-5 jobs. If not, then they have an 8-6 job, or maybe even a 7-10 job, or a bunch of jobs. In other countries, they have jobs where they work all day, sleep at their workplace, make next to nothing and if they make a mistake their boss beats the shit out of them. Life is not about doing whatever you want to, it is about doing something because you have to do something in order to live-- if you are lucky, you will like what you are doing.

If you don't have a job, you are either a bum, a monk or a parasite. Should we be teaching kids how to be these things? Oops, no religion in the classroom... looks like you think we should be teaching kids how to be bums and parasites. We could have classes dedicated to begging, or how to collect welfare, or how to look pathetic enough that people will give you money, or strategies for sponging off of your relatives.

I'll admit that as of late there's a lot more emphasis on getting students to 'pass the test', and a lot of teachers end up teaching the test... but if you're so starved for more education, then you can easily pick up a book and learn it yourself, and feel free to come to your own conclusions about things as well. I would wholeheartedly encourage that, and I'm sure a lot of your teachers would as well.

As for this 'teaching kids how to think' stuff... seriously, what does that even mean??? I can teach you how to think in about twenty seconds-->

Step 1: Picture something: for example, a rabbit.
Step 2: Ask yourself a question about it that you do not know the answer to.
Step 3: Go find the answer.
Step 4: Check other sources to make sure that it's the right answer.

If you're expecting teachers to repeat all sorts of anti-social propaganda and encourage students to set up communes because 'society is evil' is a universal 'truth', then you need to wake up and realize that the majority of people will have to embrace society in order to get what they want out of life-- things like travel, love, sex, food, family, education, friends, music, entertainment, etc. If you are not part of this majority, you can drop out, refuse to work and see how far you get.

There are subjects where students are encouraged to express themselves and are always stimulating (unless some fuckwad screws it up, which can happen)-- History, Art, Creative Writing, Literature, and English come to mind. But you can't change math, computers or science. Those subjects are based on facts. Unfortunately, artsy subjects do not land people the kind of jobs they will probably want in the future.

I would love to teach a course on world societies, or world religions, or that kind of thing where there's a lot of potential to ask questions and have debates... but usually, those subjects are saved for University, where students are more interested in what they're doing.

If you're interested in expressing yourself and doing projects that reflect who you are and what you're interested in, then why not start a club? You could write manifestos and share ideas, pick your own topics and learn the way you want to. Or maybe you're too busy being negative about what you don't have and how oppressed you are to actually do something about it?

[heywood floyd]

Also, for Topher D.:

By 'selling your wares', do you mean you intend to become a prostitute? A drug dealer? If not, then I'm pretty sure that 'selling wares' means that you need a supplier. Unless you can dive for pearls or you're collecting and polishing seashells. Do you know how to grow your own food? It takes a lot of work-- I guarantee that you will work a lot more than the guy at his 9-5 job, and I can also guarantee that you will sometimes fail. The guy at the 9-5 job has a farmer growing his food for him, but you will have to do the farmer's job plus the merchant's. How are you going to buy this trailer? Will you have a car to get around? Except you can't, because buying gas is buying into the corporations. Are your customers going to come to you? How will you get them to do so? Are you going to advertise? Depending on what you're planning to sell, you probably won't have many customers if you're living out in the countryside, and I highly doubt that you're going to walk into the city everyday. Also, you need to be prepared for failure, because it is going to happen... I'm not saying this to be discouraging, just that it's a constant reality whenever anyone starts up a new business... especially if you're trying to compete with businesses that have more money, more advertising, more brand familiarity, and lower prices than you do.

Still, good luck.

[Any Color You Like]

Ummmm... no offense, but if you don't think we should be preparing kids for 'repetitive slaving for wealth and material gain', then exactly what do you think should be happening at schools? The understanding of the world, the motivation to explore, create, etc. Then let the students make there own intelligent choice.

The problem here is that school teach us in a way that 1.accepts no questioning from the student, 2. makes almost no room for the student's creativity, 3. rewards the student with virtual rewards, the grades, therefore the students forget what learning is all about, the love of the world unknown. Isn't that what learning should be about?

That isn't why students go to school everyday.
I know that I have the possibility to not fall into this, but most do, and I care about them, because they are tomorrow's society.

As for this 'teaching kids how to think' stuff... seriously, what does that even mean??? I can teach you how to think in about twenty seconds-->

Step 1: Picture something: for example, a rabbit.
Step 2: Ask yourself a question about it that you do not know the answer to.
Step 3: Go find the answer.
Step 4: Check other sources to make sure that it's the right answer.

The way you put is the intelligent way, but the classes I receive are more like this, unfortunatly.

Step 1: The subject of the class today is the rabbit.
Step 2: The questions are already in the book you all received.
Step 3: Go find the answer.
Step 4: The teacher says it's the good answer, and the question is in the exam so I better learn it by heart.

Ok I'm making a pretty negative portrait but this is something I see every day at school, so...?

Or maybe you're too busy being negative about what you don't have and how oppressed you are to actually do something about it?
I'm not anti-anything, I'm for a better everything, and yes the world needs change, and so does education.

[BlueJayWay]

heywood floyd...you seem like a pretty bitter person. I'm sorry, but that's the instant impression I got, you could've done that in a far less patronizing manner...


Personally, I think not enough people think for themselves these days...they just accept what they are told. Alot of people that I have met have difficulty getting around the concept that just because they learnt something, doesn't necessarily make it true. I also think school can kill creativity, save for English (maybe).

[opel diamond]

well i dont think heywood floyd sounds bitter about anything, i think he sounds realistic about everything.

i dont think school does stifle creativity, i got top GCSE grades in english (creative writing), art, drama and music. all creative subjects and now years after i left education, i still write poetry, play music and draw. all things i learnt to do in school, along with my main passion....photography which was also taught at my school. but like heywood said, if you expect teachers to be teaching you how to tye dye t shirts and make home made bongs in design technology you need to get real.

im not going to go into anymore depth as ive already made plenty of posts in this thread and i think my stance is pretty clear here, but my main reason for posting was to say i couldnt agree with either of heywoods posts more. very well put. :cheers2:

[Any Color You Like]

Look at the world and tell me, without laughing, that it doesn't need change...

[heywood floyd]

^^^The world will always need to change. It always has and always will. And people will always try to get other people to change it for them.

Grades are not 'virtual rewards'-- they're indicators that are supposed to give you, your parents and other teachers a clear sign of how well you're doing. Performance evaluation is a major part of any job-- from working at MacDonald's to aerospace engineering. It is something you will always face, throughout your life.

And I don't know what kind of school you're going to, but where I went to school teachers would always welcome some healthy debate. The thing is, very few students had the slightest interest in providing any. Everything that was said was usually met with yet another sea of empty stares. When there was debate, it was a refreshing change of pace... but it didn't happen as often as it should have. And believe it or not, you do not always know everything when you're 17 with zero humility, heaps of angst and a burning need to prove yourself. Very few students your age actually bother to understand the topic before they speak. Do some research, come in prepared, and prove yourself if you're so desperate to learn things your own way. Despite how you might think I sound here speaking freely, I am a teacher in real life and I always take care not to squash someone's confidence especially when they're trying their best. Unfortunately, the truth is that 90 percent of students want to do only as much as they have to, 5 percent want to do less, 4 percent think they could do it all so much better, and the remaining 1 percent is actually interested in going into more depth. Of course, this depends on the school.

I always stress: if you're so interested in going outside the textbook, you can always do your own research and prepare your own argument before class. I'm sure that if one of your teachers would be impressed by your desire to learn and master any topic of discussion, and would happily do whatever he/she could to help you discover the subject more in-depth. Given the availability of information nowadays, it shouldn't be too hard. You don't even have to go to the library- you can do it online.

The trouble is (and I'm not saying this to be bitter, I'm honestly just being realistic) that most kids are not interested in dedicating any of their precious free time to mastering any topic or subject, especially when they could be sleeping, hanging out with friends, watching TV, doing drugs, surfing the net, etc. Unfortunately, your teachers only have so much time in class, and they have in all likelihood been told to teach the exam. The only way they can go outside of this is by assigning a lot more homework, but it's much easier and safer to just do it yourself-- because there is pressure to keep your class grades up, and if your failure rate is too high, it is a reflection on you as a teacher.

Again, I can't stress this enough:

If you think you're missing out, then why not take it upon yourself??? Why should other people be held fully accountable for your own education? If this were the 1800s, then there might be a valid reason why someone would be fully dependent on their teacher, but nowadays, there's no reason for that to be the case.

[gstaterfan]

that's why you do your best to get out of there so you can start fighting it from the outside instead of being stuck there.

[heywood floyd]

^^^That's giving up.

[zombiewolf]

Best thing to do is get your ass the hell out of institutional education and into the public library and get to work. Provided you know how to learn.
This is what elementary school is for. If you haven't been taught to learn on your own by about the 6th grade you are pretty much fucked imho.
Beware!
When you learn things outside the box you can run the risk of becoming maligned from this latest version of what we call western civilization.:eek:


ZW :cool:

[heywood floyd]

Sorry zombiewolf... the days when dropouts can make it rich is over (unless you're already wealthy)... every employer wants to see solid credentials and at least a high school diploma. The work force will eat you alive if you don't have an education, and you'll more than likely get stuck at the bottom, working as a drone at two different jobs, making other people rich just so you can get by... going into debt just to support your family, and never being able to pay off your debts... and having lots of debts makes it very hard to live your life.

People don't need to be taught how to learn on their own-- learning isn't a skill, it's a function of the human brain. The only obstacle to learning is when you think that you already know everything, and have all the answers.

[LanSLIde]

Education is but a set of close-minded boundaries imposed upon us, to control the ways in which we may think, and how we perceive, set down by the self-proclaimed elite, fearing the uncontrollable.
It's benefits allow a more united, easily functioning society that can work towards "the greater good" due to acceptance of similar social contract (check out social contract theory, Hobbes, if you don't know what I mean and would like to), at least more so than if every individual had a very personal sense of the world and their role in it. Still, personal freedom to develop ones mind as they please is limited by our overall system of living at this time, but if one so pleases they can escape the boundaries of society and it's views of reality into schizophrenia.

Still, it supplies several educated or demoralized dropouts to businesses and the job market as a whole. Rest assured someone is going to benefit from your having attended school, many times someone other than yourself. The current system farms people for cash to self-perpetuate itself.

I'm currently reading through this sociology book/study called "Ain't No Makin' it", which features a good explanation of several theories which show that the education system merely replicates the class system, among other theories included. It's a good read if you're interested in the subject.

[zombiewolf]

LanSLIde...+1

floyd...yer a toady

[gstaterfan]

^^^That's giving up.

no it isn't but alright.

[heywood floyd]

Then please tell me how you're fighting the system without being part of it all you great enlightened 'outside-the-box' people. What do you do for a living that allows you to function without an education?

And exactly how does one go about 'fighting the system from the outside'?? Are you going to be in a cult? A terrorist organization? Unfortunately, those types of things tend to be a lot more rigid and fascistic than society. But maybe you could be a gypsy or join a circus or something... just make sure you have a skill first.

As I said before, I'm not discouraging anyone from broadening their horizons, I'm just saying that without an institutional education you're pretty much fucked... and I don't think any responsible adult would ever encourage a young adult to drop out of school.

[zombiewolf]

http://www.angelfire.com/stars4/lists/dropouts.html








Noted Individuals - High School and Elementary School Dropouts

(elementary school dropouts where indicated)

A

Abigail Adams.......wife of the 2nd U.S. President John Adams; America's 2nd First Lady (no formal education; home schooling/life experience).
Ansel Adams.........American wilderness photographer; best-selling photography book author; Presidential Medal of Freedom recipient.
Bryan Adams......Oscar-nominated songwriter-singer.
Sheldon Adelson......self-made billionaire American hotel and casino businessman.
Miguel Adrover.....Spanish-born fashion designer.
Christina Aguilera....rock star.
Jack Albertson......Oscar-winning actor.
Peter Allen.........Oscar-winning Australian songwriter-composer-singer.
Rick Allen . . . rock star; member of "Def Leppard".
Dhirubhai Ambani....self-made billionaire Indian businessman.
Anthony Andrews.....actor.
Julie Andrews.......Oscar-winning actress-singer; best-selling British author (as Julie Andrews Edwards); bestowed the rank of Dame Commander of the Order of the British Empire in the year 2000 (United Kingdom: Dame Julie Andrews).
Christina Applegate......actress.
Edwin Apps.........British artist.
Joan Armatrading....singer-songwriter.
Louis Armstrong.....singer-musician.
Eddy Arnold.........country music star; Country Music Hall of Fame inductee.
Cliff Arquette ("Charlie Weaver")....comedian-entertainer; American author.
Brooke Astor........wealthy American socialite-philanthropist-author; Presidential Medal of Freedom recipient
John Jacob Astor......self-made multimillionaire German-born early American businesssman; America's first multimillionaire.
Chet Atkins.........country music star; Country Music Hall of Fame inductee; Rock and Roll Hall of Fame inductee; American author.
Jane Austen......best-selling British author (elementary school dropout).
Gene Autry......Oscar-nominated singer-songwriter; the first "singing cowboy"; wrote and co-wrote over 200 songs, including "Back in the Saddle Again" and "Here Comes Santa Claus"; recorded famous rendition of the Johhny Marks song "Rudolph, the Red- Nosed Reindeer"; actor-producer; self-made multimillionaire American businessman; author; Country Music Hall of Fame inductee; National Cowboy Hall of Fame inductee; only person to have five stars on the Hollywood Walk of Fame in honor of career achievements in five entertainment fields.
Richard Avedon......American photographer-author.
Willy Aybar.....baseball player.
--------------- High School and Elementary School Dropouts ---------------

B

Kevin Bacon.......actor-singer-songwriter; member of the band "The Bacon Brothers".
Pearl Bailey........singer-actress; Presidential Medal of Freedom recipient; American author.
Josephine Baker.....singer-dancer-actress.
Lucille Ball........actress-comedienne-producer; Presidential Medal of Freedom recipient; American author.
Hubert Howe Bancroft....American historian-bookseller.
Brigitte Bardot.....actress; former model; French author.
Roseanne Barr.......actress-comedienne-producer-director; American author.
Fantasia Barrino......singer-actress; American author; American Idol television talent show contest winner (season 3; 2004).
Drew Barrymore......actress-producer; American author.
John Bartlett.......best-selling American author.
Shirley Bassey......singer; British author; bestowed the rank of Dame Commander of the Order of the British Empire in the year 2000 (United Kingdom: Dame Shirley Bassey).
Bill Bartman........self-made billionaire American businessman.
Count Basie.........bandleader-pianist.
Sean Bean......actor.
Beck (Beck Hansen)....rock star.
Boris Becker.....tennis player; three-time Wimbledon champion.
Anne Beiler......self-made multimillionaire American businesswoman; founder of "Auntie Anne's Pretzels" fast-food restaurant chain.
Jean-Paul Belmondo....actor.
Jack Benny..........comedian-actor-violinist.
Irving Berlin.......Oscar-winning American songwriter-composer; film story writer; Presidential Medal of Freedom recipient; Congressional Gold Medal recipient.
Yogi Berra.........baseball player-coach-manager; National Baseball Hall of Fame inductee; best-selling American author; famous quote: "It ain't over till it's over."
Claude Berri........Oscar-winning French film director- producer.
Luc Besson..........French film director-writer-producer (La Femme Nikita, The Fifth Element, etc.); knighted (France: Chevalier [Knight] of the Legion of Honor; Chevalier [or Chev.] Luc Besson).
Joey Bishop.........comedian-entertainer.
Clint Black.........country music star; American author.
Norman Blake....musician; guitarist.
William Blake.......British poet.
Mary J. Blige......singer-songwriter.
Humphrey Bogart.....Oscar-winning actor.
Peter Bogdanovich....Oscar-nominated American film director-screenwriter (The Last Picture Show, Paper Moon, Mask, etc.); book author.
Michael Bolton......singer-songwriter; American author.
Sonny Bono...........singer-songwriter-actor; U.S. Congressman (California U.S. Representative); best-selling American author.
Daniel Boone........early American frontiersman (little formal education; home schooling/life experience).
John Boorman........Oscar-nominated British film director (Deliverance, Excalibur, etc.).
Bjorn Borg..........tennis player; five-time Wimbledon champion; Swedish-born author.
Clara Bow....early Hollywood actress
David Bowie.........singer-songwriter-musician-actor; Rock and Roll Hall of Fame inductee; British author.
Boy George..........rock star; British author.
Barbara Taylor Bradford....best-selling British romance author.
Billy Bragg......rock star.
Marlon Brando.......Oscar-winning actor; American author.
Richard Branson.....self-made billionaire British businessman; founder of "Virgin Atlantic Airways," "Virgin Records," etc.; best-selling British author; knighted (United Kingdom: Sir Richard Branson).
Jacques Brel.......singer-songwriter.
Joseph Brodsky.......Nobel Prize-winning Russian-born American poet.
Charles Bronson.....actor.
Gary Brooker.......rock star.
Louise Brooks.......silent-film actress; American author.
Pierce Brosnan......actor.
Margaret Brown.....American socialite; Titanic survivor ("the Unsinkable Molly Brown").
Gisele Bündchen.....actress; supermodel.
George Burns........Oscar-winning actor-comedian; American author (elementary school dropout).
Pete Burns.......rock star (elementary school dropout).
Ellen Burnstyn......Oscar-winning actress.
Raymond Burr.......actor.
Terry Butters.....singer-musician; pianist.
--------------- High School and Elementary School Dropouts ---------------

C

Sebastian Cabot.....actor.
Sammy Cahn..........Oscar-winning American songwriter-composer; American author.
Martin Caidin.......American author; aviation expert; psychokinesis researcher; literary works include the novels "Cyborg" on which the TV series "The Six Million Dollar Man" was based and "Marooned," the basis for the 1969 Oscar-winning movie about astronauts trapped in space.
Michael Caine.......Oscar-winning actor; best-selling British author; knighted (United Kingdom: Sir Michael Caine).
Glen Campbell.......country music star; American author.
Neve Campbell.......actress.
Eddie Cantor......actor-singer-comedian-producer; American author (elementary school dropout).
Jennifer Capriati......tennis player.
George Carlin.......comedian-actor; best-selling American author.
Andrew Carnegie.....self-made multimillionaire American businessman-philanthropist (elementary school dropout).
Jim Carrey..........actor-writer-comedian.
Kit Carson.....early American frontier guide; trapper; soldier; Indian agent (no formal education; learned to read and write in his mid 50s).
Giacomo Casanova....Itlaian-born author; diplomat, spy; playboy.
John Chancellor.....American television journalist; evening news anchorman; author.
Charlie Chaplin.....Oscar-winning actor-writer-director- producer; British-born author; knighted (United Kingdom: Sir Charlie [or Charles] Chaplin) (elementary school dropout).
Ray Charles.........singer-pianist; one of the first Rock and Roll Hall of Fame inductees; American author.
Cesar Chavez.......U.S. farm labor leader pioneer.
Cher......Oscar-winning actress-singer; best-selling American author.
Maurice Chevalier....Oscar-winning actor-singer; French-born author; French Legion of Honor inductee/Medal recipient (note: rank bestowed in 1938 [Knight?] still being researched; if you know this detail or can research French-language websites and find out, please send the missing information the webmaster).
Agatha Christie......best-selling British author; bestowed the rank of Dame Commander of the Order of the British Empire in the year 1971 (United Kingdom: Dame Agatha Christie) (no formal education; home schooling/life experience; studied singing and piano at age 16).
Liz Claiborne.......fashion designer.
Eric Clapton......rock star; British author.
John Clare........British poet (elementary school dropout).
Samuel L. Clemens ("Mark Twain")....best-selling American author; humorist (elementary school dropout).
Roberto Clemente....baseball player; National Baseball Hall of Fame inductee.
Kurt Cobain........rock star; lead singer of the band "Nirvana."
Eddie Cochran.....rock star.
Jackie Cochran.....pioneering American female aviation pilot; Aviation Hall of Fame inductee; author (elementary school dropout).
Joe Cocker.......rock star.
William Cody ("Buffalo Bill")....Pony Express rider; U.S. Army scout; Wild West show founder (elementary school dropout).
Harry Cohn.....American film producer; early Hollywood pioneer; co-founder of Columbia Pictures.
Toni Collette.......Oscar-nominated actress.
Jackie Collins......best-selling British-born author.
Phil Collins........Oscar-winning songwriter-singer.
Christopher Columbus....Italian explorer (little formal education; home schooling/life experience; went to sea in his youth).
Perry Como..........singer.
Sean Connery........Oscar-winning actor; knighted (United Kingdom: Sir Sean Connery).
Billy Connolly......comedian-actor-musician; Scottish author.
Joseph Conrad......best-selling Polish-born British author (little formal education; home schooling/life experience; went to sea in his youth).
Russ Conway.....pianist; composer.
James Cook........British explorer (little formal education; home schooling/life experience; went to sea in his youth).
Jack Kent Cooke.....self-made billionaire Canadian-born American media businessman.
Elvis Costello.......rock star; Rock and Roll Hall of Fame inductee.
Noel Coward.........Oscar-winning actor-director-producer- playwright-composer; British author knighted (United Kingdom: Sir Noel Coward) (elementary school dropout).
Simon Cowell......music producer; oncamera judge on the television series American Idol and Pop idol (UK).
Daniel Craig.......actor.
Joan Crawford.......Oscar-winning actress; American author; former dancer.
Michael Crawford....actor-singer; British author.
Davy Crockett.......early American frontiersman; U.S. Congressman (Tennessee U.S. Representative); died at the battle of the Alamo (little formal education [six months]; home schooling/life experience).
Russell Crowe......Oscar-winning actor.
Tom Cruise..........Oscar-nominated actor.
Charles E. Culpeper....self-made multimillionaire American businessman; early 1900s' owner and head of "The Coca Cola Bottling Company."
--------------- High School and Elementary School Dropouts ---------------

D

Jim Dale............Oscar-nominated songwriter-singer-actor.
Jerry Daley......artist.
Roger Daltry........singer-actor; member of the rock group "The Who."
Beverly D'Angelo.....actress
Sammy Davis Jr......singer-dancer-actor-entertainer; American author (elementary school dropout)
Robert De Niro......Oscar-winning actor-producer; knighted (France: Chevalier [Knight] of the Legion of Honor; Chevalier [or Chev.] Robert De Niro).
Felix Dennis........self-made multimillionaire British magazine publisher ("Maxim" magazine, etc.).
Lloyd Dennis....Canadian author; teacher; lecturer; awarded the Order of Canada and the Order of Ontario
Reginald Denny......actor.
Gerard Depardieu....Oscar-nominated actor; knighted (France: Chevalier [or Chev.] Gerard Depardieu) (elementary school dropout).
Johnny Depp.........Oscar-nominated actor.
Bo Derek............actress; American author.
Richard Desmond.....self-made billionaire British publisher
Diana........Princess of Wales.
Cameron Diaz.......actress; former model.
Charles Dickins.....best-selling British author (elementary school dropout).
Bo Diddley..........rock star; Rock and Roll Hall of Fame inductee.
Matt Dillon......Oscar-nominated actor.
Joe DiMaggio........baseball player; National Baseball Hall of Fame inductee; Presidential Medal of Freedom recipient; American author.
Celine Dion.......Oscar-winning singer; Canadian-born author.
Thomas Dolby........musician-composer; music producer.
Francis Drake.......British explorer; knighted (United Kingdom: Sir Francis Drake) (little formal education; home schooling/life experience; went to sea in his youth).
Theodore Dreiser.....American author
Patty Duke......Oscar-winning actress; best-selling American author; former president of the Screen Actors Guild.
Isadora Duncan......dancer; American author (elementary school dropout).
Charles Durning.....Oscar-nominated actor.
--------------- High School and Elementary School Dropouts ---------------

E

James B. Eads......early American engineer; bridge builder; inventor of the diving bell.
Jeanne Eagels.....Oscar-nominated early Hollywood actress; Broadway actress.
Steve Earle.....country music star.
Dale Earnhardt......race-car driver.
George Eastman......self-made multimillionaire American inventor-founder of the "Kodak" roll film camera and corporation.
Thomas Edison.......self-made multimillionaire American inventor; electrical power usage pioneer; filmmaker; Congressional Gold Medal recipient; knighted (France: first bestowed the rank of Chevalier [Knight], then later upgraded to Officer, then Commander; Commander [or Cmdr.] Thomas Edison) (elementary school dropout).
Duke Ellington......Oscar-nominated American composer- bandleader; Presidential Medal of Freedom recipient; author.
James Ellroy........best-selling American author.
Eminem......Oscar-winning songwriter-singer; rap music singer; actor.
Robert Evans......Oscar-nominated American film producer (Chinatown, Marathon Man, Urban Cowboy, Popeye, etc.); movie studio executive; author.
Oliver Evans.......American inventor (little formal education).
Rupert Everett......actor.
--------------- High School and Elementary School Dropouts ---------------

F

Adam Faith......rock star; actor.
Lola Falana.........singer.
Nick Faldo..........golfer; British author.
Michael Faraday......British physicist; chemist.
Colin Farrell.......actor.
Jose Feliciano......singer-guitarist.
Joschka Fischer.....German politician; Foreign Minister
Scott Fischer......world-class mountain climber-guide; expedition business owner.
Carl G. Fisher......self-made multimillionaire American businessman; land developer; original developer of Miami Beach, Indianapolis Motor Speedway, etc. (elementary school dropout).
Ella Fitzgerald.....singer; Presidential Medal of Freedom recipient.
James Flagg.....magazine and poster illustrator; artist of the famous "Uncle Sam" World War II "I Want You . . . for U.S. Army" recruiting poster; American author
Errol Flynn.......actor; Tasmanian-born author.
Henry Ford..........self-made multimillionaire American businessman; auto manufacturing pioneer; founder of the "Ford Motor Company."
George Foreman......Olympic Gold Medal boxer; best-selling American author; businessman.
Redd Foxx...........actor-comedian.
A. J. Foyt.........race-car driver; American author.
Peter Frampton.....rock star.
Aretha Franklin....singer; Rock and Roll Hall of Fame inductee; American author.
Benjamin Franklin....American politician-diplomat-author-printer-publisher-scientist-inventor; co-author and co-signer of the U.S. Declaration of Independence; one of the founders of The United States of America; face is pictured on the U.S. one-hundred dollar bill (little formal education [less than two years]; home schooling/life experience).
Joe Frazier........Olympic Gold Medal boxer; American author.
Nick Frost.......British actor.
Samuel Fuller......American film director-writer-actor (director: Merrill's Marauders, The Big Red One, etc.).
Furuzan.......Turkish-born female author (elementary school dropout).
--------------- High School and Elementary School Dropouts ---------------

G

Clark Gable........Oscar-winning actor.
Eva Gabor..........actress.
Kaba Gandhi.......father of Indian political leader Mohandas "Mathatma" Gandhi (no formal education; home schooling/life experience).
Karasandas Gandhi.....older brother of Indian political leader Matahma Gandhi (left school when he and his brother were married to girls in arranged marriages; his brother, the future political leader returned to school a year later at age 14).
Greta Garbo........Oscar-winning actress.
Mary Gauthier.......singer-songwriter.
Marvin Gaye........singer; Rock and Roll Hall of Fame inductee.
Henry George......best-selling American author; economist (elementary school dropout).
George Gershwin....Oscar-nominated American songwriter-composer; Congressional Gold Medal recipient.
Amadeo Peter Giannini....American-born founder of "Bank of America."
Andy Gibb..........rock star (elementary school dropout).
Barry Gibb.........rock star; member of "The Bee Gees"; British author.
Maurice Gibb.......rock star; member of "The Bee Gees."
Robin Gibb.........rock star; member of "The Bee Gees."
Lillian Gish.......Oscar-winning actress; early Hollywood pioneer; American author.
Jackie Gleason.....Oscar-nominated actor-comedian-entertainer.
Whoopie Goldberg....Oscar-winning actress-comedienne; best-selling American author.
Samuel Gompers.....U.S. labor leader pioneer (elementary school dropout)
Cuba Gooding Jr........Oscar-winning actor.
Benny Goodman.....bandleader-clarinetist; American author.
Maksim Gorky......Russian author (elementary school dropout).
Marjoe Gortner....actor; former child evangelist.
Jay Gould......self-made multimillionaire American financier and railroad builder.
Graham Gouldman.....rock star.
Lew Grade.........British film/TV producer (TV: The Avengers, The Saint, Secret Agent, The Prisoner, The Muppet Show, etc.); Russian-born British author; knighted (United Kingdom: Sir Lew Grade).
Cary Grant........Oscar-winning actor.
W.T.Grant.........self-made multimillionaire American businessman; founder of the "W.T. Grant Company" department store chain.
Horace Greeley....American newspaper publisher-editor; U.S. Congressman; 1872 U.S. Presidential candidate; co-founder of the Republican party in the United States.
Roy Greensmith....British politician; Sheriff of Nottingham 1995-1996; Lord Mayor of Nottingham 1997-1998, 2001-present.
D.W. Griffith.....Oscar-winning American film director; early Hollywood pioneer.
Dave Grohl......rock star; founding member of the band "Foo Fighters"; former member of the band "Nirvana."
Woody Guthrie.....folk singer-songwriter; Rock and Roll Hall of Fame inductee; American author.
--------------- High School and Elementary School Dropouts ---------------

H

Thomas Haffa......self-made billionaire German media businessman (double- digit billionaire in the late 1990s.)
Merle Haggard.....country music star; Country Music Hall of Fame inductee; American author.
Wang Hai........Chinese consumer advocate.
Bill Haley.....rock star; founding member of the band "Bill Haley and His Comets; recorded famous rendition of the song "Rock Around the Clock; Rock and Roll Hall of Fame inductee.
Pete Hamill......journalist; best-selling American author.
Laird Hamilton.....surfer; surfing video producer-consultant; former model.
Susan Hampshire....actress; best-selling British author.
Dian Hanson......American magazine publisher and editor.
Jean Harlow......actress.
Jet Harris......rock star.
George Harrison....Oscar-winning songwriter-singer-guitarist; former member of "The Beatles"; Rock and Roll Hall of Fame inductee.
John Harrison......British inventor of the first naval chronometer; inventor and maker of clocks and watches (little formal education; home schooling/life experience).
Beth Hart........singer-songwriter-pianist.
Laurence Harvey....Oscar-nominated actor.
Paul Hawkin........American businessman-author.
Sterling Hayden....actor; American author.
Thomas Hearns......boxer.
Margaux Hemingway......actress-model.
Arthur Henderson....Nobel Prize-winning British Politician; co-founder of the Labour Party; Foreign Secretary 1929-1931; peace conference president (1934 Nobel Peace Prize) (dropped out of school at age 12 to work in a locomotive parts iron foundry).
Kenneth Hendricks......self-made billionaire American businessman.
Karl Hess.........American author; political speechwriter; former "Newsweek" magazine editor.
Benny Hill.........comedian-entertainer; TV comedy-show host.
Al Hirschfeld......caricaturist; American author.
Jimi Hocking......rock star.
Eric Hoffer.......American author-philosopher; Presidential Medal of Freedom recipient.
Paul Hogan.........Oscar-nominated screenwriter-actor.
James Hogg.......Scottish poet (elementary school dropout).
Billie Holiday.....singer (elementary school dropout).
Larry Holmes.......boxer; American author (elementary school dropout).
Soichiro Honda......self-made multimillionaire Japaneses businessman; motorcycle industry pioneer; founder of the Honda Motor Company.
John Lee Hooker....blues singer-musician; Rock and Roll Hall of Fame inductee.
Fiona Horne.........rock star; Australian-born author; "Australia's most famous witch."
Lena Horne.........singer-actress.
Harry Houdini.....magician; escape artist; paranormal investigator; Hungarian-born American author.
Djimon Hounsou......Oscar-nominated actor; former model.
Bobby Hull.........hockey player; Canadian author.
J.B. Hunt . . . self-made American multimillionaire transportation businessman (elementary school dropout).
H.L. Hunt........self-made billionaire American oil industrialist (elementary school dropout).
John Huston........Oscar-winning American film director-actor (The Treasure of the Sierra Madre, The Maltese Falcon, The African Queen, etc.); book author.
--------------- High School and Elementary School Dropouts ---------------

I

Janis Ian.......singer-songwriter; American author.
Iman........actress-model; Somalia-born author.
Natalie Imbruglia......rock star; actress.
--------------- High School and Elementary School Dropouts ---------------

J

Wolfman Jack.......radio-show host; television personality; actor; American author.
Tony Jacklin.......golfer; British author.
Peter Jackson......Oscar-winning New Zealand film director-writer-producer (The Lord of the Rings trilogy, The Frighteners, etc.).
Allen W. Jacobson.....early Boeing Company executive; directed American warplane development and production during World War II.
Elizabeth Jagger....runway/photography model; daughter of rock star Mick Jagger and model Jerry Hall.
Billy Joel.........rock star; Rock and Roll Hall of Fame inductee; American author.
Elton John.........Oscar-winning songwriter-singer; Rock and Roll Hall of Fame inductee; British author; knighted (United Kingdom: Sir Elton John).
Andrew Johnson.....17th U.S. President (no formal education; home schooling/life experience).
Catherine Zeta-Jones......Oscar-winning actress-singer-dancer.
George Jones.......country music star; American author (elementary school dropout).
John Paul Jones.....Scottish-born American Revolutionary War U.S. navy commander; famous quote: "I have not yet begun to fight." (little formal education; home schooling/life experience; went to sea in his youth.)
Rickie Lee Jones....pop-jazz singer-songwriter.
Tom Jones..........singer.
Leon Jouhaux.......Nobel Prize-winning French labor leader pioneer (1951 Nobel Peace Prize).
--------------- High School and Elementary School Dropouts ---------------

K

Joshua Kadison.......singer-songwriter-musician.
Henry J. Kaiser....self-made multimillionaire American businessman; founder of "Kaiser Aluminum and Chemical Corporation," "Kaiser Steel," etc.
Garson Kanin.......Oscar-nominated screenwriter; playwright- stage director; American author.
Li Ka-shing......self-made billionaire Chinese-born businessman.
Carmen Kass........supermodel.
Mathieu Kassovitz......French film director-actor-producer.
Miura Kazuyoshi......Japanese-born soccer player.
Kirk Kerkorian......self-made billionaire American businessman.
Chaka Khan.........rock star.
Nicole Kidman......Oscar-nominated actress.
Kid Rock (Robert Ritchie)......rock star; actor.
Jean-Claude Killy....Olympic Gold Medal skier; French author.
Alan King..........comedian-producer; American author.
B.B. King........singer-guitarist; Rock and Roll Hall of Fame inductee.
George Kirby.......comedian-impressionist.
Eartha Kitt........singer-actress; author.
Evel Knievel.......motorcycle daredevil; American author.
Gladys Knight......rock star; Rock and Roll Hall of Fame inductee; American author.
J. Fred Knobloch.......country music star.
Yaphet Kotto.......actor.
Kane Kramer......British inventor of the technology behind the iPod.
Ray Kroc...........self-made billionaire American businessman; founder of the "McDonald's" fast-food restaurant chain; author.
Karolina Kurkova.......supermodel.
--------------- High School and Elementary School Dropouts ---------------

L

Jimmy Lai......self-made multimillionaire Chinese-born Hong Kong businessman; newspaper and magazine publisher; founder of the "Giordano" clothing store chain (elementary school dropout).
Frederick "Freddy" Laker....self-made multimillionaire British businessman; airline entrepeneur; knighted (United Kingdom: Sir Frederick [or Freddy] Laker).
Barbara La Marr.....early Hollywood actress-screenwriter
Louis L'Amour......best-selling American author of Old West stories and novels; Congressional Gold Medal recipient.
Burton Lane........Oscar-nominated American songwriter- film/stage composer.
Cleo Lane..........singer-actress.
Tommy Lasorda......baseball team manager; National Baseball Hall of Fame inductee; American author.
Rod Laver..........tennis player; four-time Wimbledon champion; tennis's first millionaire; Australian author.
Jude Law..........Oscar-nominated actor.
Steve Lawrence.....singer-actor-entertainer.
Richard Leakey.......paleoanthropologist; Nairobi-born author.
David Lean.........Oscar-winning British film director (Lawrence of Arabia, Dr.Zhivago, etc.); knighted (United Kingdom: Sir David Lean).
Henrietta Leaver.....Miss America 1935.
Heath Ledger........Oscar-nominated actor.
Albert Lee.......rock star.
Jason Lee.........actor.
Edward Leedskalnin....American sculptor of the Coral Castle in Florida (elementary school dropout).
Anton van Leeuwenhoek....Dutch microscope maker; world's first microbiologist; discoverer of bacteria, blood cells, and sperm cells).
Jennifer Jason Leigh....actress.
Jarod Leto........actor.
Oscar Levant.......American composer-pianist-actor.
Joseph Levine......American film producer (The Graduate, The Lion in Winter, etc.).
Adolph Lewis......self-made multimillionaire American businessman; inventor of the "Slim Jim" meat stick snack in the 1940s.
Jerry Lewis........actor-comedian-singer-entertainer- humanitarian; American author; knighted (France: Chevalier [or Chev.] Jerry Lewis).
Joe Lewis........self-made billionaire British businessman.
Carl Lindner.......self-made billionaire American businessman.
Frank Lindner......artist.
Mark Lindsay.......rock star; member of "Paul Revere & the Raiders."
Little Richard.....rock star; one of the first Rock and Roll Hall of Fame inductees.
Brian Littrell.......rock star; member of "Backstreet Boys."
LL Cool J (James T. Smith)......rock star.
John Llewellyn.....U.S. Labor leader pioneer; for 40 years until his retirement, president of the United Mine Workers' Union.
Marcus Loew........self-made multimillionaire American businessman; early Hollywood pioneer; founder of the "Loews" movie- theater chain; co-founder of "MGM" studios (elementary school dropout).
Dave Lon..........musician.
Julie London.......singer-actress.
Trini Lopez........singer-actor.
Traci Lords........actress-singer-songwriter; American author.
Sophia Loren.......Oscar-winning actress; best-selling Italian- born author; former model (elementary school dropout).
Joe Louis..........boxer; Congressional Gold Medal recipient; American author.
Courtney Love......Oscar-nominated actress; rock star.
Daniel Ludwig......self-made billionaire American businessman (graduated 8th grade; no high schooling).
Loretta Lynn.......country music star; Country Music Hall of Fame inductee; American author.
Shelby Lynne......singer-songwriter.
Mary Lyon.........American women's education pioneer; early American teacher; founder of Mount Holyoke College (America's first women's college).
--------------- High School and Elementary School Dropouts ---------------

M

Gwendolyn MacEwen....Canadian poet.
John Major.........British Prime Minister 1990-1997; author.
Thomas Karran Maltby....Australian politician; Speaker of the Legislative Assembly 1947-1950; knighted (Sir Thomas Karran Maltby).
Shirley Manson.....rock star.
Sophie Marceau......actress-director; French-born author.
Audrey Marnay......French top runway/photography model.
Evan Marriot.......actor; former model; original "Joe Millionaire" of the reality TV series of the same name.
Jean Marsh.........actress; British author.
Wanda Marsh.......artist; woodcarver; American author.
Dean Martin........singer-actor-entertainer.
Harry Edmund Martinson....Nobel Prize-winning Swedish author (little formal education; home schooling/life experience; went to sea in his youth).
Moa Martinson.....Swedish author.
Lee Marvin.........Oscar-winning actor.
Groucho Marx.......Oscar-winning actor-comedian; American author (elementary school dropout).
Henry Maudslay.....British engineering inventor.
Robert Maxwell.....self-made billionaire British publisher.
Elaine May..........Oscar-nominated screenwriter-actress- director-comedienne; American author.
Oseola McCarty......American author (elementary school dropout).
Patrick McGoohan......actor.
Ewan McGregor......actor.
Rod McKuen.........best-selling American poet (elementary school dropout).
Florence Melton.....American inventor-businesswoman- philanthropist; inventor of the foam-lined slipper and removable shoulder pad.
Herman Melville....best-selling American author (Moby Dick, etc.).
Natalie Merchant......rock star.
Melina Mercouri....Oscar-nominated actress; Greek-born author; Greek politician.
George Michael.....rock star.
Alyssa Milano......actress.
Frankie Miller......blues singer-songwriter.
Max Miller........British comedian-actor.
Roger Miller.......country music star; Country Music Hall of Fame inductee (elementary school dropout).
Heather Mills......British model; television presenter; author; humanitarian; 1996 Nobel Peace Prize nominee; wife of rock star Paul McCartney.
Liza Minnelli......Oscar-winning actress-singer.
Robert Mitchum.....Oscar-nominated actor; American author.
Tina Modotti......Italian-born photographer; early Hollywood actress (elementary school dropout).
Claude Monet.......artist; French painter (elementary school dropout).
Bill Monroe.....country music star; given the title "the Father of Bluegrass Music"; Country Music Hall of Fame inductee (elementary school dropout).
Marilyn Monroe.....actress-singer; former model.
Yves Montand.......singer-actor; Italian-born French author (elementary school dropout).
John Mooney....blues singer-musician.
Demi Moore.........actress-producer; former model.
Roger Moore........actor; United Nations goodwill ambassador; knighted (United Kingdom: Sir Roger Moore) .
Garrett A. Morgan....American inventor of the gas mask; one of the early inventors of and first to patent the automatic traffic signal.
Van Morrison.......rock star; Rock and Roll Hall of Fame inductee.
Samantha Mumba.....rock star.
Earl Muntz......self-made multimillionaire businessman; auto dealer; auto manufacturer; inventor; developer of the car stereo tape deck player; television set manufacturing pioneer; coined the term "TV."
David H. Murdock....self-made billionaire American businessman; chairman and CEO of Dole Food Company, Inc.; American author. Also known as David Murdock.
Vali Myers.......artist; former ballet dancer.
--------------- High School and Elementary School Dropouts ---------------

N

Walter Nash.......New Zealand Prime Minister 1957-1960; knighted (United Kingdom: Sir Walter Nash).
Nelly (Cornell Haynes Jr.)......rap music singer;actor.
Helmut Newton......German-born fashion photographer; photography book author.
Wayne Newton.......singer-actor-entertainer; American author.
Olivia Newton-John....singer-actress; British-born Australian author.
Phi Nhung.......Vietnamese-born (Amerasian) American singer.
Florence Nightingale....nursing pioneer; best-selling Italian-born British author (no formal education; home schooling/life experience).
Anais Nin.........French-American author.
--------------- High School and Elementary School Dropouts ---------------

O

Annie Oakley.......American Old West sharpshooter; Wild West show performer (no formal education; home schooling/life experience).
Sean O'Casey.......Irish playwright (elementary school dropout).
Adolph Ochs.......self-made multimillionaire American businessman; early owner and publisher of The New York Times newspaper.
Sinead O'Connor....singer-songwriter.
Gil Ofarim........rock star.
Bobby Orr..........hockey player; Canadian author.
Brian Orser........Olympic Silver Medal ice-skater; Canadian author.
Amancio Ortega......self-made billionaire Spanish fashion businessman. Also known as Amancio Ortega Gaona.
Kelly Osbourne.....rock star; daughter of Ozzy Osbourne.
Ozzy Osbourne......rock star; British-born author.
Peter O'Toole......Oscar-winning actor; Irish-born author.
--------------- High School and Elementary School Dropouts ---------------

P

Al Pacino..........Oscar-winning actor.
Thomas Paine.......American Revolutionary War era political theorist; best-selling British-born American author; famous quote: "These are the times that try men's souls." (little formal education; home schooling/life experience).
Charlie Parker.....jazz musician; saxophonist.
Dorothy Parker.....American author; theater critic.
Gordon Parks.......American film director (Shaft, The Super Cops, etc.); "Life" magazine photographer; author.
Henry Parks........English-born Australian newspaper publisher; politician; knighted (United Kingdom: Sir Henry Parks).
Rosa Parks.........U.S. civil rights activist-pioneer; Presidential Medal of Freedom recipient; Congressional Gold Medal recipient; American author.
Jack Parr..........television talk-show host; early television pioneer.
Banjo Patterson....best-selling Australian poet ("Waltzing Matilda," etc.); face is pictured on the Australian ten dollar bank note.
Floyd Patterson....Olympic Gold Medal boxer; American author.
Neil Peart.........rock star; member of "Rush."
Pele.........soccer player; Brazilian-born author (elementary school dropout).
Joe Pepitone.......baseball player; American author.
Evita Peron........First Lady of Argentina 1946-1952; former stage and radio actress.
Joe Pesci..........Oscar-winning actor.
Jon Peters.........American film producer (Rain Man, The Color Purple, Batman, Caddyshack, etc.) (elementary school dropout).
Phillippe Petit....high-wire artist.
Tom Petty..........rock star; Rock and Roll Hall of Fame inductee.
Sam Phillips.......rock-and-roll music industry pioneer; founder of Sun Records in Memphis, Tennessee in 1952; music producer- talent scout credited with discovering Elvis Presley, Johnny Cash, Jerry Lee Lewis, Roy Orbison, etc; Rock and Roll Hall of Fame inductee; American author.
Joaquin Phoenix....Oscar-nominated actor.
Edith Piaf.......French singer; author.
Mary Pickford......Oscar-winning actress; early Hollywood pioneer; co-founder of "United Artists Corporation"; Canadian-born American author (little formal education [six months]; home schooling/life experience).
François Pinault......self-made billionaire French businessman.
Pink (Alecia Moore)......rock star.
Donald Pleasance....actor.
Sydney Poitier.....Oscar-winning actor; American author (elementary school dropout).
Sara Polley.......actress-singer.
Teri Polo........actress.
Alexander Pope....early British poet (no formal education; self educated).
Paulina Porizkova......actress; former supermodel.
Paula Poundstone.....comedienne.
Luther Powell......father of U.S. Secretary of State/former General Colin Powell.
Charley Pride.......country music star; Country Music Hall of Fame inductee; American author.
Prince..........Oscar-winning songwriter-composer-musician; actor; Rock and Roll Hall of Fame inductee.
Richard Pryor.......actor-comedian; American author.
Robert John Pryse....British author (little formal education, reportedly just four days of schooling).
Wolfgang Puck.......chef-restauranteur; best-selling Austrian-born author.
Tito Puente.........musician-bandleader; American author.
David Puttnam.......Oscar-winning British film producer (Chariots of Fire, Midnight Express, etc.); knighted (United Kingdom: Sir David Puttnam).
--------------- High School and Elementary School Dropouts ---------------

Q

Anthony Quinn.......Oscar-winning actor; Mexican-born American author.
---------------High School and Elementary School Dropouts ---------------

R

Daniel Radcliffe......actor.
Otis Redding......singer-songwriter; musician.
Keanu Reeves........actor-musician.
Leah Remini.......actress.
Paul Revere.........rock star; lead member of "Paul Revere & the Raiders."
Busta Rhymes......rock star; actor.
Buddy Rich..........bandleader-drummer; American author (elementary school dropout).
Tex Rickard.......American Old West lawman; casino owner; prize-fight promoter (elementary school dropout).
Harold Robbins......best-selling American author.
Bill Robinson ("Bojangles")....dancer-actor; vaudeville performer (elementary school dropout).
Ann Marie Roberts....Australian Olympic athelete in clay target shooting (Sydney 2000 summer games).
Nora Roberts......best-selling American author.
Chi Chi Rodriguez....golfer; Puerto Rican-born author.
Roy Rogers..........actor-singer-guitarist; American author.
Will Rogers.........humorist-lecturer-actor-entertainer; best-selling American author; famous quote: "I never met a man I didn't like."
Kjell Inge Rokke.....self-made billionaire Norwegian businessman.
Axl Rose........rock star.
Frederick Henry Royce....self-made multimillionaire British businessman; co-founder-designer of the "Rolls-Royce Motor Cars Company"; knighted (United Kingdom: Sir Frederick Henry Royce) (elementary school dropout).
Ja Rule (Jeffrey Atkins)....rap music singer; actor.
Theresa Russell.....actress; former child model.
Rene Russo..........actress; former top model.
--------------- High School and Elementary School Dropouts ---------------

S

Edmond Safra.......Lebanese-born billionaire banker-philanthropist.
Derek Sanderson.....hockey player; Canadian-born author.
Gene Sarazen.......golfer; American author (elementary school dropout).
David Sarnoff......Russian-born American radio and television pioneer; given the title "Father of American Television" by the Television Broadcasters Association (completed elementary school, but did not attend high school).
William Saroyan.....Oscar-winning screenwriter; Pulitzer Prize- winning American playwright; book author.
Catya Sassoon.......actress; former model.
Vidal Sassoon.......self-made multimillionaire British businessman; founder of "Vidal Sassoon" hairstyling salons, academies, and hair-care products; British author.
Heinrich Schliemann....German archaeologist; wealthy businessman.
Arnold Schönberg....Austrian-born composer.
Seal (Seal Henry Samuel)......rock star.
Charon Severian.....rock star-actress.
William Shakespeare....British playwright; best-selling British author.
George Bernard Shaw....Nobel Prize-winning best-selling Irish-born British author; playwright.
Percy Shaw......self-made millionaire British inventor.
Charlie Sheen.....actor-writer-producer.
Willie Shoemaker....jockey; American author.
Sid Vicious (John Ritchie)......rock star.
John Simplot......self-made billionaire American agricultural businessman. Also known as J.R. Simplot.
Frank Sinatra.......Oscar-winning actor-singer; Presidential Medal of Freedom recipient; Congressional Gold Medal recipient.
Isaac Merrit Singer....American sewing machine inventor; self-made multimillionaire founder of "Singer Industries," "I.M. Singer and Company," etc. (elementary school dropout).
Red Skelton.....actor-comedian-entertainer; TV comedy-show host; artist; American author; Television Hall of Fame inductee (elementary school dropout).
Alfred E. Smith.....New York Governor; 1928 Democratic U.S. Presidential candidate (elementary school dropout).
Anna Nicole Smith....model-actress; 1993 "Playboy" magazine "Playmate of the Year."
Sammi Smith.......country music star.
Howard Solomon......American sculptor of Solomon's Castle in Florida.
Sammy Sosa..........baseball player (no formal education; home schooling/life experience).
John Philip Sousa....American composer-conductor (elementary school dropout).
Henry M. Stanley....British explorer of Africa; author; knighted (United Kingdom: Sir Henry M. Stanley) (little formal education; home schooling/life experience; went to sea in his youth).
Scott Stapp........rock star; lead singer of the band "Creed."
Casey Stengel.......baseball player-coach-manager; National Baseball Hall of Fame inductee.
Ringo Starr.........Oscar-winning songwriter-musician-singer; actor; former member of "The Beatles."
Edward Steichen.....American photographer; Belgian-born American author; knighted (France: Chevalier [or Chev.] Edward Steichen).
Hiram Stevens.......American-born engineering inventor; knighted (United Kingdom: Sir Hiram Stevens).
Jackie Stewart......race-car driver; British author knighted (United Kingdom: Sir Jackie Stewart).
Robert Stigwood.....Australian film/TV/record producer (films: Jesus Christ Superstar, Saturday Night Fever, Grease, etc.); author.
Tom Stoppard......Oscar-winning Czechoslovakian-born British screenwriter; playwright.
Lyle Stuart........American publisher-author.
Donna Summer........rock star.
Kiefer Sutherland....actor-director.
---------------High School and Elementary School Dropouts ---------------

T

Quentin Tarantino....Oscar-winning American film writer-director (Pulp Fiction, Reservoir Dogs, etc.); book author.
James Taylor........singer-songwriter-musician; Rock and Roll Hall of Fame inductee.
Koko Taylor......blues singer-songwriter (elementary school dropout).
Zachary Taylor......12th U.S. President (little formal education; home schooling/life experience).
Miguel Tejada.......baseball player.
Charlize Theron......Oscar-winning actress; former model.
Danny Thomas........actor-producer-humanitarian (actor: Make Room for Daddy/The Danny Thomas Show; co-producer: The Dick Van Dyke Show, The Andy Griffith Show, etc.); Congressional Gold Medal recipient; American author.
Rob Thomas......rock star.
Uma Thurman.........Oscar-nominated actress; model.
Alberto Tomba.......Olympic Gold Medal skier.
Randy Travis........country music star-actor; American author.
John Travolta.......Oscar-nominated actor.
Rob Trower.......rock star.
François Truffaut....French film director-producer-writer- actor (director: Fahrenheit 451 [1967], etc.; actor: Close Encounters of the Third Kind, etc.); book author.
Tanya Tucker.....country music star; American author.
Ron Turcotte........jockey.
Twiggy (Lesley Hornby)....actress; British author; former supermodel.
Steven Tyler......rock star; member of "Aerosmith."
--------------- High School and Elementary School Dropouts ---------------

U

Tracey Ullman.......actress-writer-producer-comedienne-singer; British-born author.
Charles Urban.......American-born early documentary/travel/news film producer; pioneer of the movie theater industry in the United States and Great Britain.
Lesser Ury.......German-born artist; painter.
Peter Ustinov.......Oscar-winning actor-writer-director; British author; knighted (United Kingdom: Sir Peter Ustinov).
--------------- High School and Elementary School Dropouts ---------------

V

Fernando Valenzuela....baseball player.
Jean-Claude Van Damme....actor; martial artist.
Cornelius Vanderbilt......self-made American multimillionaire steamship and railroad builder (elementary school dropout).
Gloria Vanderbilt....designer-artist; American author.
Vincent Van Gogh......artist; Dutch painter.
Stevie Ray Vaughan.....blues musician; guitarist.
Diana Vreeland......fashion editor; French-born American author.
--------------- High School and Elementary School Dropouts ---------------

W

Ken Wahl......actor; US magazine's 1989's "Sexiest Man on TV."
Eddie Walker.....folk singer-songwriter; guitarist.
Nancy Walker........actress.
Steve Waller...rock star.
Estella Warren.....actress-model.
George Washington....1st U.S. President; former general; Chairman of the Constitutional Convention; U.S. nickname: "The Father of Our Country"; face is pictured on the U.S. one dollar bill and twenty-five cent coin (quarter) (no formal education; home schooling/life experience; went to sea in his youth).
Doc Watson.......folk singer (blind); guitarist; awarded the National Medal of the Arts by President Clinton in 1997 (elementary school dropout).
Naomi Watts.......actress.
Del E. Webb........self-made multimillionaire American businessman; homebuilder; former co-owner of the New York Yankees baseball team 1945-1965 during 10 World Series wins.
Jimmie Wedell......early American aviator; airplane manufacturer; aviation school co-owner.
Weegee (Arthur Fellig)......Polish-born early American photographer; author.
Lawrence Welk.......bandleader; TV musical-variety show host; American author.
Kitty Wells.....country music star; Country Music Hall of Fame inductee.
Mae West..........actress; American author.
Barry White......singer-songwriter; American author.
Ron Whitehead.....American poet.
Walt Whitman......best-selling American poet (elementary school dropout).
Hank Williams......country music star; Country Music Hall of Fame inductee.
August Wilson......Pulitzer Prize-winning American playwright.
Kemmons Wilson.......self-made multimillionaire American businessman; founder of the "Holiday Inn" hotel chain; author.
William Bauchop Wilson....U.S. labor leader pioneer; U.S. Congressman (1907-1913); first U.S. Secretary of Labor (elementary school dropout).
Kate Winslet........Oscar-nominated actress.
Harry Winston.......jeweler; American author.
Ernie Wise........British comedian.
John Woo.......Chinese-born film director (Mission Impossible 2, Broken Arrow, Windtalkers, etc.).
Elijah Wood......actor.
Ian Woosnam........golfer.
Orville Wright......aviation pioneer; Congressional Gold Medal recipient.
Richard Wright.....best-selling American author.
Wilbur Wright.......aviation pioneer; Congressional Gold Medal recipient.
Tammy Wynette.......country music star; American author.
--------------- High School and Elementary School Dropouts ---------------

Y

Neil Young..........Oscar-nominated songwriter-singer; Rock and Roll Hall of Fame inductee.
--------------- High School and Elementary School Dropouts ---------------

Z

Mildred "Babe" Didrikson Zaharias....Olympic Gold Medal track- and-field athelete; golfer; women's sports pioneer; National Women's Hall of Fame inductee (won six Gold Medals and broke four world records at the Los Angeles 1932 summer games).

[Lynnbrown]

OK, that list was absolutely uncalled for.

heywood floyd, you are not only eloquent but also logical And correct imho
I have an education I may never use again insofar as a job; but, it would be terribly ignorant on All levels for any young person not to get ALL the education they possibly can.
All the lists in the world and justifications for being a drop-out are not going to change a thing when a more educated person is hired For That Reason Alone over the "outside the box" person without an education.

[heywood floyd]

Okay zombiewolf, nice list... a lot of people with family connections to Hollywood, model-quality looks, or innate musical talent... but the list of people who dropped out of school and ended up with nothing is infinitely longer. Of course, nobody knows about those people, because, as I said, they ended up with nothing.

I'd also like to remind you that 40 years ago most businesses didn't laugh at you if you went in looking for a job with no education. In the 70s, you could also become a teacher two years after you left high school. Nowadays, you need at least a B.A. and a year of teacher's college. Pretty soon, you will also need an M.A.

Nowadays, you need a degree. It is essential. You are encouraging kids to drop out of school because you personally think it's worthless (maybe because you're bitter??), but I don't understand what the urgency is. It's not worthless at all. Even if you don't agree with what they're teaching you, do it just in case you're not going to be a famous musician/movie star. I'm willing to bet that all of those people would still be movie stars if they had finished school...

If you are a high school dropout/elementary school dropout and not a famous movie star, then please tell us all about your amazing life and all that it has brought you, zombiewolf... what do you do?

Most of the dropouts I know are losers, plain and simple. They work in factories and grocery stores, and they try to convince themselves they're satisfied. They also wish they had gone to school, but they're afraid to go back. Maybe they had a band in high school, but it didn't go anywhere.

And seriously.... Shakespeare??? You're comparing someone in 15th century British society to 21st century America??? And I see you threw in some 19th century people as well. And Princess Diana? Okay, if you're royalty, you probably don't need to go to school. Why not just say Jesus? He didn't have a high school education either! What about the guy who started using a rock as a hammer? Or the guy who invented the spear?

Okay, it's not impossible to succeed without an education. But that's not the point. If you're that talented, then you should be able to finish school and succeed as well. Any idiot should be able to figure it out, but when you're a kid, you usually don't know any better. Discouraging someone with talent is never a good idea, but encouraging someone to drop out of school is really stupid.

I hope that you don't have kids.

[zombiewolf]

Do you know where you are? Alternative lifestyles are promoted here, get used to it.

Besides, since you tryin' to make this personal, I aint gonna speak on it no mo'

ZW

[BlueJayWay]

But maybe you could be a gypsy or join a circus or something...


Umm...you are aware that gypsies are an ethnic race? Not all gypsies are jobless, caravan dwellers

[Bad.Fish]

Umm...you are aware that gypsies are an ethnic race? Not all gypsies are jobless, caravan dwellers
i knew it its that fucking gypsy...jesus christ i have to put up with you in school and on the hip forums now, ugh whats the world coming to


ehh im right in assuming that this is sam? yeah?...gypsy :D

[Meagain]

In Pennsylvania teachers of all levels of public education are required to attend 4 years of collage and attain a BS or BA in their area. Upon graduation they must then complete another year within five years or loose their license. In addition they must then complete, I forget how many hours of seminars, etc a year or loose their license. Four years of college in PA have been required since the 1920's.

As far as the list given list. There are currently over 300 million people living in the U.S. alone. Your list draws from several nations and covers at least 200 years, many on the list are artists, people who have innate talent to fall back on.

If I took the time to do the math, which I am not going to...your list seems to be a tiny fraction of a percent of successes in the overall population for the world in the time span considered. Maybe you should check into the number of inmates in prison, welfare roles, and unemployment figures to see how many dropouts are on those as compared to non dropouts. And remember many dropouts find they must go on to get their GED or other training to get a job.
In addition to be included on your list you must be famous for one thing or another, clearly not a strong measure of success, unless your standard for success is to be famous.

[heywood floyd]

BlueJayWay:

Thanks for not saying anything about the issue at hand at all, and for being anal about the political correctness of a small insignificant detail included in my comment. Obviously, nobody could have possibly understood what I meant by what I said and I truly must concede that you possess an enlightened and all-too-worldly manner.

Though I must include a suggestion that in the future, you might wish to consider taking your cultural sensitivities and sticking them way up your ass.

[BlueJayWay]

hahaha! aw man you really are an uptight guy aren't you? and that comment really is a poor excuse for your ignorance...so might I suggest grabbing your head and pulling it out of your ass?


As for the subject at hand, I think we're capable of thinking for ourselves, regardless of where we are or what institution we're in.

[Any Color You Like]

The thing is even formal education isn't enought. You've got to go further ahead to really enjoy life! Enjoyment = Motivation = Efforts = Positive Results

[sunyatasamsara]

Education is but a set of close-minded boundaries imposed upon us, to control the ways in which we may think, and how we perceive, set down by the self-proclaimed elite, fearing the uncontrollable.

Laws too, they don't want you doing psychedelics to see the truth.

[heywood floyd]

^^^Apparently, the truth is 'My shoes can talk!'.

[heywood floyd]

Also, BlueJayWay, you're the one who's ignorant if you think being that PC is anything except really really annoying.

[sunyatasamsara]

^^^Apparently, the truth is 'My shoes can talk!'.

If you hallucinate your brain can't handle that much new information.

[enk]

o you know how to grow your own food? It takes a lot of work-- I guarantee that you will work a lot more than the guy at his 9-5 job, and I can also guarantee that you will sometimes failReally? but the plant does all the work.
Our zucchini plant provides an over abundance of edible zucchini. 3 of us cannot eat them all! You can leave them in to grow more plants...almost exponentially it would seem!
Spinach foliage renews it self. Growing a small crop will give you fresh daily spinach.
Throw some potatoes down, hey presto potato.

Growing your own food requires LESS energy overall than sustaining habitual supermarket visitation.

[enk]

Your list draws from several nations and covers at least 200 years, many on the list are artists, people who have innate talent to fall back on. The term 'Innate Talent' Is anecdotal.
Given that Charlie Parker practiced his saxophone, you cannot reduce his ability to some intrinsic automatic response.
His art was the result of applied devotion (time + energy)

You have the same things in your life, and the subject is your choice.

Good for you. But if we all tried to live like that we would be totally fucked. Topher D.'s Idea of Lifestyle Is a realistic pathway to the survival of the Human race.

We will all be living in a similar manner to Topher D. description because the alternative (which is to maintain our current standards of life) is an impossibility of Nature.
Logical observations of the world show that current values of human civilization, namely Materialism and Capitalism, are becoming the catalyst of our own annihilation.
Infrastructural consumerism is made possible through a forcing of synthetic disequilibrium which is ruthlessly and systematically imposed upon nature, and therefore cannot be sustained.

We won't be able to buy safety pins from Walmart at 3:AM for much longer...

[enk]

What purpose is a Test or an Exam?

What good is it that Fred gets 72 and Pete gets 64

In the long run It will help neither person. Why are we pitted against one another in this ridiculous contest of so called 'academic performance'.
True academic performance is the contribution to knowledge itself. We project and expand upon human experience through our creativity. Truth is made a reality through it's shared understanding.

It's about sharing!

Yet here we are, still imbued with such bureaucratic vanity, where our viability as a feeling, breathing, learning human being is reduced to a piece of paper.

Art such as books and film, created for us to be ENJOYED by artists, is taken and dissected, prodded and analyzed.
Mathematics (the simplest language of humankind) is abused like some kind of sport. 'Do 'exercises' 1 through to 50 by next Wednesday or else'

Biology, Chemistry and Physics are segregated as though they are different subjects...
If you look closely into one, you will see the other two.

Our society is so self absorbed that the most important thing going is NOT the beauty of the cosmos or watching the sunset or swimming in a river, but something else.
It's a kind of sick...adulterated tradition, perverted by it's own values of economic sensibility.
Nowadays we are spending money on money. The old trite ethics are coming to the foreground and I'm hoping to witness the fallout.

[Meagain]

Enk,
Given that Charlie Parker practiced his saxophone, you cannot reduce his ability to some intrinsic automatic response.
His art was the result of applied devotion (time + energy)

You have the same things in your life, and the subject is your choice. I agree that people are not born knowing how to play a saxophone, and practice and hard work are required, however not everyone who practices and works hard will become proficient at playing the saxophone. They must be born with certain physical and mental capabilities that will enable them to succeed. We are not all equal, we are just given equal opportunities.

What purpose is a Test or an Exam?Tests and exams are given for many reasons. One is for the teacher to evaluate his or her teaching efforts. If the entire class does poorly, then the subject matter, test, level of difficulty, teaching method, etc. are probably at fault.
If only a few do poorly, then the fault is the probably the students'. By checking wrong and right responses the student and teacher may find out what areas the students are having problems in and try to correct them.
Tests may be given to evaluate a school system, local population, grade level, etc. and compare them to national or other local averages to try to improve the system, etc.
Etc.

Grading of tests is a way of finding out at what level a student is performing and comparing that performance to their capabilities. It also is a comparison to others. The next time you go into a hospital which doctor do you want operating on you, the one that got the 72 or the one that got the 64?

Why are we pitted against one another in this ridiculous contest of so called 'academic performance'.You are pitting against each other because that's how the world operates. You may share and help each other all you want, and this is good, but in the end, no matter what you do, you will be compared to others.

Art such as books and film, created for us to be ENJOYED by artists, is taken and dissected, prodded and analyzed. In an attempt to understand.

Mathematics (the simplest language of humankind) is abused like some kind of sport. 'Do 'exercises' 1 through to 50 by next Wednesday or else'Just like practicing that sax, you gotta put in the time and effort.

Biology, Chemistry and Physics are segregated as though they are different subjects...They are different subjects. Granted they are all related, but so is everything in the universe. The sax, clarinet, and oboe are all related, but they are different instruments.

You do make several very valid points, and education, public and private are in need of reform, but the question is how to do it and how many problems are due not to the school system but to society and the individuals in that society, not the schools.

[heywood floyd]

enk,

Are you really 21? Have you ever survived on only the things that you yourself have grown? Do you have a greenhouse? Have you ever worked on a farm??? Maybe you work on one of those magic farms where everyone lives long and fruitful lives eating nothing but presto potatoes and invincible spinach.

Also, you can't say that practicing always makes someone into a great musician. Some people will get it right away and be encouraged by their quick progress... I've met people who can hear an extended guitar solo once and reproduce it perfectly within an hour. Likewise, there are people who have no trouble remembering all the terminology that makes for a great scientist, people who are physically agile and strong, and people who are natural wordsmiths. People like this usually make great students, but they are also the least in need of education... they basically teach themselves. But the environment... as well as the encouragement... helps a lot. In fact, a lot of the time I find myself in awe of these people and their abilities.

On the other hand, most people will practice and practice until they're pretty good, but they will never become a professional. These people are often the majority. And some people just won't be able to do it at all. These people are a minority, and are in need of the most encouragement. But don't think for a second that no one will be able to tell where you belong... if it is there to begin with, intelligence and excellence will always manifest naturally in someone's progress, whether it's refined or not... and while some asshole teacher might feel threatened by that, most will recognize it and with a little luck, be able to steer it in the right direction.

The point of getting good grades isn't to 'pit people against each other', however I must admit that in many cases it's the only way to motivate some people to learn (though its effectiveness can be overruled by the kind of defeatist, dismissive attitudes evident in this thread)... most teachers I know keep students' grades secret, and the competition happens by itself. It's a social thing, not a direct product of the system. A grade is intended as a measure of progress, nothing more. If you have a problem with a specific teacher, then that's an individual matter, not cause to tear the whole system down.

I'm no conservative ready to jump to the defense of our 'noble institutions', but on the other hand this topic strikes me as something started by some frustrated teenagers dying to rebel, and then latched onto by self-proclaimed free-thinkers, some of whom are very likely bitter over their own experiences in the education system.

If you ask me, and I know you're going to think this is harsh, but the wrong students have waaayyy too much power in the education system nowadays, and the teachers are basically powerless. They've been reduced to scapegoats and deliverers of information... teachers are the face of the institution, and they get blamed for everything that goes wrong. Parents blame you if their child isn't learning, as if your entire class should revolve around their precious little angel. They blame you if their child hit some other kid in the eye and you said or did something that hurt his or her feelings. And the fact that any discipline is almost completely out of the question makes it extremely difficult to maintain a semblance of order. And yes, people resent you... because it's somehow your job to make sense of their children's lives when their parents can't or won't do it.

This is a generalization, of course, but it seems to be that a lot of young people nowadays don't want to be challenged-- they want to be accommodated... and when that doesn't happen, they get upset or bored. Which is not to say that they are entirely wrong, or that free expression shouldn't be encouraged... just that a lot of it is misplaced frustration over the natural obstacles of growing up. If we accommodate students too much, they will not grow up, and continue to expect everything to come to them naturally, often harbouring unrealistic fantasies about wandering off into the woods and everything magically being wonderful. I'm sure life would be interesting, but it wouldn't necessarily be better... and it could be extremely short as well.

Being a teacher, dealing with young people, interacting with them and being a part of their lives, you inevitably develop a good sense of character. You realize that a lot of students, in their naturally competitive and self-centered way of being wish they could be as recognized as their over-achieving peers. But instead of admitting that perhaps they might not be focussing or putting forth the effort they could be, they want to see your evaluations of their progress as an unfair judgment.

And please, don't think for a moment that children, especially Western children, don't place themselves at the exact center of the universe in their minds. This is simple psychology-- children are being taught that they are special, wonderful little angels... if not by their parents, then by the media... and a lot of them have a hard time getting over that.

Added to this is the fact that one's entire school career as a young person is an unending battle with things like social status and identity... and every single one of them has a burning need to feel special, to be accepted, to have people love them and think they're cool. Don't think for a moment that children, especially Western children, don't place themselves at the exact center of the universe in their minds... everyone wants to know that someone out there believes in them... if not for who they are, then for who they could be. Sadly, only a few of them can be truly recognized as such... because cruel as it is, that's life.

After a few years, your average teacher can walk into a classroom and already know which students have drive, focus, creativity, goals, critical thought, good socialization, confidence, etc. It becomes very easy to pick out the ones who will do well. Every expression, every gesture, every posture... they are all being read by your teacher, and they are all indicators of who you are and how well you will probably do.

Like it or not, capitalist society accommodates the strong-- those who have the most to offer to society are most likely to get the most out of it. If you want to give up on that, don't expect any sympathy. If you want to change that from within, then be prepared to be tested, and don't back down from a challenge. If you want to threaten that society from the outside, be prepared to meet heavy opposition. Obviously, don't give up on your dreams... but know how to fulfill them, don't just rely on your own urges... be patient and take the time to figure out what you really want and how you're going to get it. Cliched as it is, it's so easy to be critical, but so hard to really change things... and giving up doesn't change anything.

If you think you have all the answers, prove it...

[Spiritchalist]

Teachers are getting the brunt of responsibility, negativity, and blame, but it's because they're the pawns.

Students are putting to use all the materialistic bullshit learned in school, and just scrambling for the top, wether it involves playing fair or using dirty tricks, which sometimes get found out, or the kids exagerate to come out the winner in a battle of trust.

[enk]

I have found through experience that the significance of the education institution has only shown itself to me after I removed myself from it.


....harboring unrealistic fantasies about wandering off into the woods and everything magically being wonderfulI went to the forest and try to live there as a hermit. I only lasted a single sleepless night.
I realized that the world that I was trying to escape had already figured my problems out and was trying It's best to help me.
Rather than complete Isolation I would rather be a contributor. Rather than abandon the world and it's problems I figured I might be able to fix them, for myself and others.

I have returned to school and manage by through the development of interest. The motivation required can be self administered, to do this I make my interest correlate with the subject matter.


They are different subjects. Granted they are all related, but so is everything in the universeFrom observation comes understanding, for this to be expressed it must be explainable through the terms of language.
Physics works upon models that were conceived as tools to be used collectively. Through it's presence in a community it has evolved
It is a language and because of that we can make statements, we can string together sentences to form a narrative and therefore tell stories

For instance; Molecular biology is told through the language chemistry.
Chemistry is told through Physics
and physics is told through maths, which has been described as the handmaiden of logic.

The sciences are as much to do with creativity as a Life drawing class, this goes relatively unspoken.

The next time you go into a hospital which doctor do you want operating on you, the one that got the 72 or the one that got the 64?

Hmm this is a good example...though I still think that the test is a projection of insecurity. If someone is genuinely interested in something they are only distracted by tests

Yep I am 21, and yes I visit the supermarket =X

[Tsurugi_Oni]

Education isn't a bad thing, it's just a set path on how to succeed in our current societal jungle. The top predators of this jungle use it as a subtle indoctrination/recruitment tool, while the players below use it to manifest their tiny dreams.

The only truths in life are health, food, shelter, happiness, and love. Anything else is an attempt to get people to believe in your system for attaining these things.

[Tsurugi_Oni]

I took a test in college, and this was one of the questions.

"Did Charles Darwin read X book on the ship towards the Galapagos Islands? T/F"

Who cares if he read it on a boat, on the harbor, or strollin down the street? What does that have to do with the concepts of evolution, natural selection. etc.?

The test was filled with TONS of questions like that, fillers just to make up 50 questions.

But at the end of the day, when that test is graded and that % is in red ink at the top of the paper, that is somehow a reflection of me.

My intelligence, my worth, my value. And people see this number, and that is the sole credential for my worth within this system.

To succeed within this system, I must praise this number like it is God. Because it is my God, it means my food, shelter, happiness, and my every dream. I will bend my whole life around this one number, because I gave this number power over me. No matter what I might see as right or wrong along the way, I will deal with it all as long as I can have that number.

People will manufacture so much plastic that will never degrade. A business will buy these forks just so they can remain competitive. Without these forks, they won't survive, and destruction of the world guarantees that you live.

You plow down the rainforests because beef gets you money. Beef buys you poker chips for the game of economics. But what about you destroying the very fabric of tribal life, and the very balance of nature? What about those hundreds of thousands of years to develop that climax community? Who cares, because we want to play the game and we have the power to buy in.

All it takes to buy into this game is millions of tons of fishing by-catch. Who cares about us raping the oceans, we just bought ourselves a spot in this great global poker game!!

We can send people to the moon, and yet we still have starving people. We burn wheat to keep prices up, and yet we can't manage a way to get this food to people in need?

Lmao, and you're telling me to believe in this system? All I need is my hut near the coast, non-poisoned fish to eat, and I'll find my way.