Why I think atheism is a waste... [Archive]

zombie.

12-06-2008, 07:51 AM

Well not a waste. Im cool with people not wanting to be a slave to religion and all. I have several friends like that and we all get along great. But Ive always wondered, since they believe that there is no after life, what is the harm in picking a religion that does? Lets say there is an after life after all, arent you just putting yourself at more risk of consequences by just not believing anything? At least by picking one, youre closer to whatever "happiness" lies ahead, right? It just seems like a lose/lose situation me. Can anybody give me the laydown?

But if anybody is getting offended by this, Im not saying that atheism is stupid, Im just curious. Im not some christian kid trying to convert anyone either. To be honest, I dont know what to follow. There is too many, and each is sure its the right. I guess its time to find one that appeals to me.

Jimmy P

12-06-2008, 10:15 AM

atheism is not a definition of anything, it only describes what someone is not. an atheist is someone who does not believe in a theistic deity, a god or gods, like the Abrahamic God of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. in other words, you can be an atheist buddhist, taoist, or whatever. so it doesn't mean you believe in nothing. not necessarily, that is.

I consider myself an atheist, but at the same time I am highly spiritual, and I "know" there is something divine, a greater, ineffable something, Pure Love, something that is beyond the comprehension of our simple human minds and definitely something that can not be described with words. what theists refer to as "God."

you do not need to follow anyone, friend, you can carve your own path in this life and determine for yourself what you wish to believe.

I would advise you to read books, if you look around this forum you will find plenty of recommendations, and educate yourself on all the religions and ways of life there are. you will find that they are all a different interpretation of the same thing, no one is really right or wrong (except for theists and creationists, in my opinion :tongue:)

zombie.

12-07-2008, 04:32 AM

I still have a hard time understanding it all but I suppose you'll come across problems like that in all religions.

Thank you for the suggestion. I'll do that.

relaxxx

12-07-2008, 01:04 PM

zombie.

12-08-2008, 02:55 AM

I'm going to pretend I believe there is a God for a few minutes, what I CAN'T pretend or imagine is a God that actually requires acknowledgment and glorification from the likes of man. These ideas are product of mans ego. So what if there is a God and the real test turns out to be an unwillingness to fall for any of mans ego-induced definitions of God?

I fail to see any benefit to "picking a God" in a world scarred with the consequences of mans various selections and interpretations. Does a truly good person need to acknowledge any kind of God? Does a truly good person need to study commandments to know what is right? I don't think so.

I see what you're saying. And I can definately see man making something such as a god that needs recognition. Most likely so that everyone lives the way they want the average human being to live. Like the government came up with it.

But what I was saying is that, lets pretend there is a god that requires acknowledgment, such as christianity or any others, and it did require you to follow its commandments, wouldnt it be better to pick one instead of not worrying with it? I dont know what exactly Im saying because there seems to be a hole through it all, but if any of you get what Im saying, then maybe you understand where Im coming from.

Just to clarify, I am not saying christianity is probably right but I keep refering to it because its pretty much the opposite of atheism, or I guess the nerdy word is the 'enemy' of it.

But while I'm on the subject, AND also because I dont want to hear "just except jesus in your heart and thats all that matters", it seems like the bible has been added on to through the years, and there are also things wrong with the commandments. Like the one where it basically says incest is wrong, but Adam and Eve were supposed to be the first people on earth and they had kids and population started there. That means someone was sleeping with close family, right?

And it says your not supposed to lay with the same sex, but real gay people are born that way from something inside the mother (I cant remember what it was) So if 'god' is real...why the fuck isnt he fixing anything thats wrong?

relaxxx

12-08-2008, 01:58 PM

The God in the bible seems more of a Devil than anything. If I am wrong and there is a God, a truly kind God, He will not care for acknowledgment. If there is a so called God or Gods that resembles popular religions definition then they are not really Gods but various devils. Did a God torture a man and kill his family to prove a point to the Devil or did a sadistic Devil prove a point to another Devil? (Book of Job)

Actually, it is a fictional story attempting to justify belief in a world of suffering.

Anyway, as an atheist I can't possibly worry about my choice. I am simply not among the God fearing.

lithium

12-08-2008, 02:24 PM

-clementine-

12-08-2008, 09:42 PM

This is Pascal's wager (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_wager). Aside from the objections listed by relaxxx, a big one is surely that if these gods are omniscient, then they'll know that you chose to believe just for pure selfishness, not because you really did believe. A god that rewards you for intellectual dishonesty and selfishness?

They are also usually jealous and exclusive, so you'd have to pick the right one and risk the anger of the hundreds of others... Either way I'd prefer to live the best way I can with the best understanding available to me, with intellectual honesty and humility. Which for me is atheism. Anything else is a lie.

If god exists and doesn't respect that, then screw the fucker.

I too live the best way I can with the best understanding available to me and that is Christianity. It would be a lie to deny God.

The only way to everlasting life is to believe in God - so yes that may appear to be selfish as you worship a God only for life ever after in heaven but you need to look deeper than that, for it is easy to say that it is all a selfish act but there is so much more.

I assume you haven't read the Bible?

Al Kapwn

12-08-2008, 09:50 PM

This is Pascal's wager (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_wager). Aside from the objections listed by relaxxx, a big one is surely that if these gods are omniscient, then they'll know that you chose to believe just for pure selfishness, not because you really did believe. A god that rewards you for intellectual dishonesty and selfishness?

They are also usually jealous and exclusive, so you'd have to pick the right one and risk the anger of the hundreds of others... Either way I'd prefer to live the best way I can with the best understanding available to me, with intellectual honesty and humility. Which for me is atheism. Anything else is a lie.

If god exists and doesn't respect that, then screw the fucker.

Nicely said, lithium.

I believe that there is no afterlife. If I wasn't confident about that belief, I would be agnostic instead of atheist; but I am confident, and I see no reason to "hedge my bet." I'm absolutely certain that I'm right.

lithium

12-08-2008, 09:59 PM

I assume you haven't read the Bible?

I have but to be honest I got a bit bored and skipped to the end.

-clementine-

12-08-2008, 10:10 PM

I have but to be honest I got a bit bored and skipped to the end.

I doubt it was boredom. I'd say that you were apprehensive of finding something in the Bible that affected you and caused yourself to rethink your attitude toward God.

Al Kapwn

12-08-2008, 10:13 PM

lithium

12-08-2008, 10:16 PM

I doubt it was boredom. I'd say that you were apprehensive of finding something in the Bible that affected you and caused yourself to rethink your attitude toward God.

wow maybe it'll teach me condescension and self righteous arrogance *dusts off bible*

-clementine-

12-08-2008, 10:23 PM

I've read the Bible. Even the boring parts! It did not cause me to rethink my atheism. I gave it a serious shot, too. Clementine, have you ever read Carl Sagan's "The Varieties of Scientific Experience?" (http://www.amazon.com/Varieties-Scientific-Experience-Personal-Search/dp/B0017HZ0V4/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1228770798&sr=8-2) It's the only decent book espousing atheism I've ever read - but I don't think it would change your mind, either. These are hard-won beliefs you and I have; a book's not gonna change 'em. Not even the Good Book.

Seeing as the Bible is a life altering book it can change people's lives and their views toward Christianity. If there was something just as remarkable from the viewpoint of an atheist then perhaps I would consider it.

wow maybe it'll teach me condescension and self righteous arrogance *dusts off bible*

I was not being condesending or arrogant I was merely saying that perhaps you have a certain view with is fixed but, as with many, the Bible could change that. I can understand people being apprehensive about a life altering experience. Think about your reasoning.

Al Kapwn

12-08-2008, 10:30 PM

Seeing as the Bible is a life altering book it can change people's lives and their views toward Christianity. If there was something just as remarkable from the viewpoint of an atheist then perhaps I would consider it.

Clearly it can't change everyone's lives or views though, huh?

How do you know how remarkable Carl Sagan's book is? I think it's pretty remarkable. Maybe you should try it instead of knocking it?

-clementine-

12-08-2008, 10:34 PM

Clearly it can't change everyone's lives or views though, huh?

How do you know how remarkable Carl Sagan's book is? I think it's pretty remarkable. Maybe you should try it instead of knocking it?

Nothing can be quite as remarkable as The Bible. Even for atheists you should be able to admit that The Bible is full of amazing events of courage, wisdom and love.

Al Kapwn

12-08-2008, 10:35 PM

I will happily admit that. Many of the stories in the Bible are really effective allegories about treating people right and stuff like that. It's a valuable book.

-clementine-

12-08-2008, 10:37 PM

It is more than a book. Give it a read and see how things change.

Al Kapwn

12-08-2008, 10:40 PM

I told you, I already did that. Since I'm an atheist, while I was capable of enjoying it as a classic book (although honestly, one that does drag in some spots), it didn't have any impact on my lack of beliefs whatsoever. Just because it made you Christian doesn't mean it'll have that impact on anyone else, dude.

-clementine-

12-08-2008, 10:42 PM

Don't assume the Bible was the sole reason I am a Christian.

Okiefreak

12-08-2008, 10:54 PM

I'm a betting man myself, but Pascal's wager always reminded me of those chain letters that tell you you'll be rewarded twentyfold if you send it out to your friends, and if you don't, you'll suffer a terrible curse. What do you have to lose? I usually delete those. I have some pride about what superstitions I'm willing to give serious consideration to. By the way, in Pascal's case, it wasn't just God you had to bet on, but Catholicism. Apart from the point that others have already made, that God could be a staunch Calvinist who thinks all papists should roast in hell, this is the only life we know, and if I spent it being a Catholic that wouldn't be a negligible price to pay, as far as I'm concerned. (No offense intended to Catholics, it's just not my cup of tea). There's also the problem that, for me at least, I can't just make myself believe any old thing at all simply because it's convenient. It has to make sense to me. In Orwell's 1984, there's a scene where the protagonist, under torture, tries desperately but unsuccessfully to believe that 2+2=5, which he must do in order to satisfy his tormentors.

But I do base my own faith on a wager model deriving more from William James than from Pascal. In situations of uncertainty or ambiguity, like the existence facing all of us, it seems to me to be essential to bet our lives on something. I think the bet needs to be consistent with the best available evidence, reason, intuition, and good judgment, shaped by personal experiences, but we can't avoid making it. Not to bet is itself a wager. To me, belief in a Higher Power makes sense as a working hypothesis--not because I think I have nothing to lose and might hit the jackpot, but because it seems plausible in comparison with available alternatives.

Al Kapwn

12-08-2008, 11:03 PM

lithium

12-08-2008, 11:04 PM

I was not being condesending or arrogant I was merely saying that perhaps you have a certain view with is fixed but, as with many, the Bible could change that. I can understand people being apprehensive about a life altering experience. Think about your reasoning.
Nothing can be quite as remarkable as The Bible.

And that's not a fixed view?:rolleyes:

If there was something just as remarkable from the viewpoint of an atheist then perhaps I would consider it.I'd second Al Kapwn's suggestion: Carl Sagan is a pretty damn good place to start. Many of us here have indeed read the Bible, we've also read lots of other things.

Life and the universe are so much more intricate, wonderful and awe inspiring than those ancient prophets ever imagined...

Al Kapwn

12-08-2008, 11:06 PM

I like you, Lithium.

zombie.

12-08-2008, 11:21 PM

-clementine-

12-08-2008, 11:22 PM

And that's not a fixed view?:rolleyes:

Your point being? This is a very weak argument.

I'd second Al Kapwn's suggestion: Carl Sagan is a pretty damn good place to start. Many of us here have indeed read the Bible, we've also read lots of other things.

Life and the universe are so much more intricate, wonderful and awe inspiring than those ancient prophets ever imagined...

I have read many non-christian books, articles, research if that is what you are implying, although I have yet to find a good reason to whether I should believe that this is all a lie.

what is it exactly that 'those prophets' imagined that is not as good as the world you would like? Christians are not narrowminded. They are able to see the world as you do.

-clementine-

12-08-2008, 11:29 PM

Tell me something clementine,
The things that I mentioned on the first few posts about the things wrong with the bible...explain them to me.
Its hard for me to get past those, seeing that theres a possibility that its not as stable as its supposed to be.

The idea that you believe in God just to get into heaven is all true. Yes if you follow Jesus and do as he did then heaven is much closer, but there is so much more to that. It is about doing good, having a purpose in life and in the world around us.

You seem to believe that there is a God and that is often the hardest thing to do. Once you believe that it does become clearer as to why we are here, what we are expected to do and the bigger picture of life.

I am not a Christian just to get into Heaven. I know that I don't actually deserve that. It's about love and understanding.

lithium

12-08-2008, 11:37 PM

Your point being? This is a very weak argument.

My point was that while you are quick to accuse people of being scared to challenge themselves by reading the magic book you seem reluctant to consider the possibility that your own knowledge may be incomplete. You seem to have the whole thing figured out pretty nicely. That's great for you, but it comes across as somewhat breathtakingly arrogant.

-clementine-

12-08-2008, 11:41 PM

My point was that while you are quick to accuse people of being scared to challenge themselves by reading the magic book you seem reluctant to consider the possibility that your own knowledge may be incomplete. You seem to have the whole thing figured out pretty nicely. That's great for you, but it comes across as somewhat breathtakingly arrogant.

Having faith is arrogant?

Like I said I have read a lot, I have studied this and have a good idea of both religious and non religious stances on this. You say I am arrogant about believing in God while you have said that the things the prophets taught are not as good as what you can see and do by yourself. That to me is also arrogant.

lithium

12-08-2008, 11:51 PM

Having faith is arrogant?

Not necessarily, there are those who have faith and still demonstrate intellectual humility, some indeed on this forum. Saying things like atheists just need to read the bible or accusing them of being scared of what it may teach them is a pretty good sign of a certain kind of supercilious self-righteousness though. Not a good thing if you're interested in bettering your understanding, scepticism and openness to other ideas are prerequisites...

while you have said that the things the prophets taught are not as good as what you can see and do by yourself. That to me is also arrogant.I didn't actually, I was referencing one of my favourite quotes from Carl Sagan:

"In some respects, science has far surpassed religion in delivering awe. How is it that hardly any major religion has looked at science and concluded, "This is better than we thought! The Universe is much bigger than our prophets said, grander, more subtle, more elegant. God must be even greater than we dreamed"? Instead they say, "No, no, no! My god is a little god, and I want him to stay that way." "

OldTroll

12-08-2008, 11:52 PM

My observations lead me to believe that the followers of the God of the Western Desert have caused more than their share of suffering and anguish

Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.
the Buddha

-clementine-

12-09-2008, 12:16 AM

Not necessarily, there are those who have faith and still demonstrate intellectual humility, some indeed on this forum. Saying things like atheists just need to read the bible or accusing them of being scared of what it may teach them is a pretty good sign of a certain kind of supercilious self-righteousness though. Not a good thing if you're interested in bettering your understanding, scepticism and openness to other ideas are prerequisites...

I didn't actually, I was referencing one of my favourite quotes from Carl Sagan:

"In some respects, science has far surpassed religion in delivering awe. How is it that hardly any major religion has looked at science and concluded, "This is better than we thought! The Universe is much bigger than our prophets said, grander, more subtle, more elegant. God must be even greater than we dreamed"? Instead they say, "No, no, no! My god is a little god, and I want him to stay that way." "

Your favoutite quote? Surely then you believe in that quote and wouldn't use it if it went against what you believed?

I have said 'have you' read the bible, or i assume. that isn't telling people to read it. That alone for one so adamant will not change anything. The apprehensive comment was in response to you saying you were bored reading the bible and in a roundabout way an attempt to get you to explain why the bible means nothing to you. But as with most questions I have asked, you have ignored them and continued to use the 'arrogance' arguement in what I see as a good debate.

lithium

12-09-2008, 12:35 AM

Your favoutite quote? Surely then you believe in that quote and wouldn't use it if it went against what you believed?

I don't "believe in" the quote. I think it tells us something interesting in a clever way... and no I wouldn't have quoted it if I didn't think it told us something interesting in a clever way. Like so often, I fail to see your point...

The apprehensive comment was in response to you saying you were bored reading the bible and in a roundabout way an attempt to get you to explain why the bible means nothing to you. But as with most questions I have asked, you have ignored them

Perhaps you should have asked that directly in intelligible language. The bible does not mean nothing to me. The 'skip to the end' comment was very obviously a joke. I think some of it is great poetry, valuable allegory and cutting edge first-century philosophy. It has much to teach us and is worth studying. Some if it less so; confused ramblings, xenophobia, misogyny. Aside from its historical interest, much of it is great fiction. Negligible factual content, often self-contradictory. Its worldview is limited by the fact it was written by humans who lived nearly two thousand years ago and did not have access to the body of knowledge about the physical universe we have now. Interesting and valuable, yes. The only book I ever need to read? Bugger off... It will change your life in the sense that it will enrich it, and reading and learning more is never a bad thing. It did and could have little or no impact on my awareness of the nature of existence.

Anyway all of this is off-topic.

Hesh

12-09-2008, 12:36 AM

quotes i like. :)

It is not as in the Bible, that God created man in his own image. But, on the contrary, man created God in his own image. - Ludwig Feuerbach

Religion does three things quite effectively: Divides people, Controls people, Deludes people. - Carlespie Mary Alice McKinney

Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea. atheists will celebrate life, while you’re in church celebrating death... two hands working can do more than a thousand clasped in prayer. the hands clasped symbols bondage and enslavement.

Atheism is a non-prophet organization. - George Carlin :D Love Carlin!

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? - Epicurus

You do not need the Bible to justify love, but no better tool has been invented to justify hate. - Richard A. Weatherwax

i do believe there is an after-life, but in no way is it ur so called heaven.

-clementine-

12-09-2008, 12:46 AM

I don't "believe in" the quote. I think it tells us something interesting in a clever way... and no I wouldn't have quoted it if I didn't think it told us something interesting in a clever way. Like so often, I fail to see your point....

My point was that you said that you didn't say you were better off than what the prophets said and you replyed with 'no it's a quote' so to me, I wouldn't quote something that I didn't agree with or that would not answer the question had asked. So I took it as, and like you have just said, that you qouted it as a response. Which means that you agree with it and feel that you view the world in a better way,

Perhaps you should have asked that directly in intelligible language. The bible does not mean nothing to me. The 'skip to the end' comment was very obviously a joke. I think some of it is great poetry, valuable allegory and cutting edge first-century philosophy. It has much to teach us and is worth studying. Some if it less so; confused ramblings, xenophobia, misogyny. Aside from its historical interest, much of it is great fiction. Negligible factual content, often self-contradictory. Its worldview is limited by the fact it was written by humans who lived nearly two thousand years ago and did not have access to the body of knowledge about the physical universe we have now. Interesting and valuable, yes. The only book I ever need to read? Bugger off... It will change your life in the sense that it will enrich it, and reading and learning more is never a bad thing. It did and could have little or no impact on my awareness of the nature of existence.

Anyway all of this is off-topic.

Thank you. It is good to know your opinion. I don't agree with all of what you have said, but then I shouldn't have to. It depnds on the way you read it and on the attitude you have when going into it. Yes the bible should be studied and yes it tells us a lot. I have at no point said that it should be the only book you ever need read, like I have said I have read an abundance of material to accompany it. Everything we read affects us in some way doesn't it? I finished a book last night, which has affected me.

lithium

12-09-2008, 12:57 AM

My point was that you said that you didn't say you were better off than what the prophets said and you replyed with 'no it's a quote' so to me, I wouldn't quote something that I didn't agree with or that would not answer the question had asked. So I took it as, and like you have just said, that you qouted it as a response. Which means that you agree with it and feel that you view the world in a better way,

Do we have more knowledge than the people who wrote the bible? A more refined understanding of the nature of existence? Abso-bloody-lutely. Yes we have a far more nuanced understanding of the nature of physical existence than was accessible to those ancient minds. The bible may have lots of interesting things to say about human experience but as a way of understanding the nature of the universe it is very obviously pitifully limited and lacking.

-clementine-

12-09-2008, 01:00 AM

Do we have more knowledge than the people who wrote the bible? A more refined understanding of the nature of existence? Abso-bloody-lutely. Yes we have a far more nuanced understanding of the nature of physical existence than was accessible to those ancient minds. The bible may have lots of interesting things to say about human experience but as a way of understanding the nature of the universe it is very obviously pitifully limited and lacking.

I'm going to let your arrogance settle. For one so set in your ways you haven't displayed much understanding of Christianity nor have you been very pleasant.

Hesh

12-09-2008, 01:17 AM

whats heaven?

lithium

12-09-2008, 02:02 PM

I'm going to let your arrogance settle. For one so set in your ways you haven't displayed much understanding of Christianity nor have you been very pleasant.

I thought it would be fairly uncontroversial to state that we have more knowledge of the nature of physical reality now than was available to the authors of the bible. Unless of course you are one of those who believes that Genesis gives us an accurate account of the creation of the universe ... a view of breathtaking inanity which it's not really possible to argue against.

Al Kapwn

12-09-2008, 03:07 PM

"In some respects, science has far surpassed religion in delivering awe. How is it that hardly any major religion has looked at science and concluded, "This is better than we thought! The Universe is much bigger than our prophets said, grander, more subtle, more elegant. God must be even greater than we dreamed"? Instead they say, "No, no, no! My god is a little god, and I want him to stay that way." "

Yaaay, that's always been one of my favorites. For me it encapsulates something fiercely important: some religious people rail against science because it scares them, because they feel it might damage their view of God. I disagree; if you believe in God, I would hope that science would expand your view of him. All it does is uncover new and wonderful things about our universe.

Science doesn't have to be the enemy of religion.

lithium

12-09-2008, 03:29 PM

Yaaay, that's always been one of my favorites. For me it encapsulates something fiercely important: some religious people rail against science because it scares them, because they feel it might damage their view of God. I disagree; if you believe in God, I would hope that science would expand your view of him. All it does is uncover new and wonderful things about our universe.

Science doesn't have to be the enemy of religion.

Doesn't need to be, but often is, because the more you learn, the less necessity there is to imagine a god to explain things. Such an understanding pushes god back into the gaps in our understanding, and the more we learn, the less we need magic. But yes what I love about Sagan is that he gets across the awe and wonder of a scientific worldview. It's really not something to fear, it does not diminish and reduce the majesty and beauty of existence, quite the opposite, it opens it up. A world seen through religion is limiting, when you begin to understand what's really there and how it works that's when your mind truly starts to get a sense of how magnificent existence is:)

Al Kapwn

12-09-2008, 03:36 PM

Ah yeah, the God of the gaps. But I think there'll always be something ineffable about the universe, and that's where God can come in for those who want him to. The problem comes when folks try to place him as the answer to specific questions, like "How old is the earth?" If it's a question science can answer, then science probably will, and that's going to make those folks feel bad, and then we're fighting - which doesn't really work out well for either side.

Rudenoodle

12-09-2008, 08:31 PM

. But Ive always wondered, since they believe that there is no after life, what is the harm in picking a religion that does? .

You answer your own question here.

Why would someone who believes in no afterlife turn around and believe in an afterlife?

And what "bonus" would an atheist get after his death if he just randomly chose a religion with a afterlife twist to it?

Wouldn't he still go to a sentence of punishment for stating that he didn't believe in an afterlife?

Your question was redundant.

-clementine-

12-09-2008, 08:43 PM

I thought it would be fairly uncontroversial to state that we have more knowledge of the nature of physical reality now than was available to the authors of the bible. Unless of course you are one of those who believes that Genesis gives us an accurate account of the creation of the universe ... a view of breathtaking inanity which it's not really possible to argue against.

This only gives one the impression that you consider atheists much more intelligent that anyone who belives in god. What would possibly give you that right? It is not what you say but the manner in which you say it that upsets me, with such an air of righteousness. Of course since the bible was written science has much advanced. From what you said before I again got the impression that you were not talking about the view of the world compared to now, or creation, or whether the was is round or not, but that then it was ok to believe in God as they were not as advanced as now.

lithium

12-09-2008, 09:41 PM

This only gives one the impression that you consider atheists much more intelligent that anyone who belives in god. What would possibly give you that right?

That would be an innaccurate impression to get from those words. An interesting subject but not one I've raised here. I believe there is a correlation between high IQ and atheism but this is a complex issue, there are of course many stupid atheists just as there are clever religionists...

From what you said before I again got the impression that you were not talking about the view of the world compared to now, or creation, or whether the was is round or not, but that then it was ok to believe in God as they were not as advanced as now.

No I wasn't saying that either, but again you raise an interesting topic. Firstly I think it's still "ok" to believe in god, it is an almost inescapable human instinct to hold these kinds of beliefs, so to rail against the existence of the belief is somewhat futile. On the other hand, it probably wasn't ok to not believe in god until quite recently. I think we have less and less reason to invoke such supernatural belief systems to explain the world if we engage our critical faculties, which of course few people do.

-clementine-

12-09-2008, 09:56 PM

I believe there is a correlation between high IQ and atheism but this is a complex issue....

That is actually quite offensive, to believe that 'you' are far more intelligent that 'us' just because you do not belive in there being something bigger in the world.

I think we have less and less reason to invoke such supernatural belief systems to explain the world if we engage our critical faculties, which of course few people do.

Or in other words, if we stop being so stupid and start thinking about how a god is stupid?

I can understand that people all feel different about religion, but I would never say that I am better in anyway than someone who didn't have faith, which is what you are implying here.

Al Kapwn

12-09-2008, 10:10 PM

There have been some studies that show a possible correlation between atheism and high IQ; they're controversial at best, and I'd be inclined to call bullshit.

Other studies have shown that more educated people (as distinct from higher-IQ people) are less inclined to believe that the Bible is literally true, but maybe more inclined to attend church. That's kinda interesting.

A quick and pretty fair summary of these studies:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religiosity_and_intelligence

(Note: That Paek study looks like complete BS to me.)

-clementine-

12-09-2008, 10:16 PM

I am well educated, as are my family. From what I have seen people vary in intelligence, regardless of religion.

lithium

12-09-2008, 10:16 PM

That is actually quite offensive, to believe that 'you' are far more intelligent that 'us' just because you do not belive in there being something bigger in the world.

There have been quite a few studies which have demonstrated this link. Do you think it is "offensive" to believe something which has been demonstrated empirically? Also it's not "far more intelligent", we are talking statistically significant differences of perhaps a few IQ points.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religiosity_and_intelligence

Of course correlation does not imply causation, and it would be a mistake to assume that the correlation necessarily implies that people are less religious because they are more intelligent. Other factors may well be at play; people with higher IQs tend to have better jobs, be in a higher socioeconomic class, have had a certain kind of upbringing etc, all of which may feed into their tendency to be less religious.

I can understand that people all feel different about religion, but I would never say that I am better in anyway than someone who didn't have faith, which is what you are implying here.Another mistaken inference. I too would never suggest I am better than someone because of what they believe.

Al Kapwn

12-09-2008, 10:18 PM

Ha! Beat you to that link, homeboy.

-clementine-

12-09-2008, 10:25 PM

Another mistaken inference.

Yes of course, you clearly don't mean what you imply!

lithium

12-09-2008, 10:29 PM

Yes of course, you clearly don't mean what you imply!

I sometimes mean what I imply but I have no say over what people infer:p

How metaphysical:willy_nilly:

-clementine-

12-09-2008, 10:45 PM

I sometimes mean what I imply but I have no say over what people infer:p

How metaphysical:willy_nilly:

I infer what you imply. It is clear that you have utter disregard for Christians and will probably never have faith unless Jesus comes down and hits you around the head with the bible. What I don't understand is why you seem so nagry toward them.

lithium

12-09-2008, 11:06 PM

I infer what you imply. It is clear that you have utter disregard for Christians and will probably never have faith unless Jesus comes down and hits you around the head with the bible. What I don't understand is why you seem so nagry toward them.

I'd like you to show me where I've implied all the things of which I'm accused.

Some of my best friends are christians, I most certainly do not have utter disregard for them and am not angry towards them, but I don't agree with the doctrine. Personally I don't think I would ever have any kind of faith, defined as belief in the absence of, or contrary to, evidence. Jesus coming down and hitting me with a bible would be pretty good evidence for his existence, as long as he could repeat it under laboratory conditions...

-clementine-

12-09-2008, 11:23 PM

Some of my best friends are christians, I most certainly do not have utter disregard for them and am not angry towards them, but I don't agree with the doctrine

Perhaps I should have said Christianty rather than Christians, although I imagine you feel the same towards other religions too. You seem like an intelligent man you must be able to separate the person from the faith even though they can be extremely intertwined otherwise it would be like saying all christians or muslims only start or support war because it has happened in history.

Hoatzin

12-10-2008, 12:07 AM

Well not a waste. Im cool with people not wanting to be a slave to religion and all. I have several friends like that and we all get along great. But Ive always wondered, since they believe that there is no after life, what is the harm in picking a religion that does? Lets say there is an after life after all, arent you just putting yourself at more risk of consequences by just not believing anything? At least by picking one, youre closer to whatever "happiness" lies ahead, right? It just seems like a lose/lose situation me. Can anybody give me the laydown?

I'm pretty sure most religions are pretty clear on this one. Believing in a god just because you're afraid of the consequences of not believing in one = bad. If you believe in Heaven, very often you're expected to believe in Hell, so presumably that's a risk, but yeah, most of the religions that have a concept of Hell believe that attrition is bad.

relaxxx

12-10-2008, 04:23 AM

You seem like an intelligent man you must be able to separate the person from the faith even though they can be extremely intertwined otherwise it would be like saying all christians or muslims only start or support war because it has happened in history.

I don't think the point is to attack Christians or religious as individuals. Not everyone that smokes cigarettes dies from cancer. So does that make cigarettes alright? Are the deadly facts nullified and forgotten because it doesn't apply to everyone?

People die from cigarettes and people die from religion. Please don't belittle the death of millions to make a weak and evasive argument.

I think only the Devil could torture a man, promise him heaven and make him believe it at the same time! There is no God that demands worship, only Devils. Religion IS surrendering your soul to the Devil, the ultimate deception! I believe the religious are being cultivated as SOULdiers, pawns for an afterlife of war between devils.

Nah, but I'd give it better odds than the "loving omnipotent ONE".

Actually I just remembered this creepy, intensely real dream I had once where I was in this huge marble building with ivory columns and there was a choir singing a bone chilling song like from the movie Omen. Everything was bright, clean and immaculate and this man in a suit was looking at me from behind a marble desk with a huge white tooth smile like a game show host. I looked into the blackest eyes and saw infinity as he lifted me off my feet with his mind I thought to myself "He's the Devil". I jumped out of my sleep in a cold sweat.

I don't know if I had a point to my story, other than the devil can be a sharp dressed man in a huge cathedral.

lithium

12-10-2008, 03:38 PM

I don't know if I had a point to my story, other than the devil can be a sharp dressed man in a huge cathedral.

Always something to remember. Thanks for sharing:)

Bluetemple

12-10-2008, 05:52 PM

Well not a waste. Im cool with people not wanting to be a slave to religion and all. I have several friends like that and we all get along great. But Ive always wondered, since they believe that there is no after life, what is the harm in picking a religion that does......

You would be advocating Pascal's Wager here.
The harm would be in living a lie. Every religion is founded on faith. Faith precludes fact. It is not a fact there is an afterlife, it is but a hope there is.
And when one studies the religions of the world and how they view that stated hope, it's not exactly a guaranteed paradise. Every religion invests real life travails as a means to achieve the after life they hope for. But that after life can be an exclusive paradise reserved only for those who's name appears in a book, or it can entail a void removed from the sight of the god they worshiped all their living life. Or it can entail eternal suffering in a place created for them by the god of their faith. Theists live their life hoping they'll be better people when they're dead.

Atheists simply recognize all that as man made sadistic fallacy and live this life as responsible conscious individuals, who realize they don't need to believe in fiction in order to be better people. And when they die they understand there's no way to know what's next,because that is the one fact that makes us all equal. Hoping something happens after life by no means guarantees it.

zombie.

12-11-2008, 04:20 AM

DaveHT

12-11-2008, 06:41 AM

Atheism is the belief in no god(s), an agnostic niether believes or disbelieve in god(s), a theist believes in god(s).

Everybody is one of the three choices. You can still live and not focus on religion but religion is a theist thing. Even if you don't believe in any religion but you still believe in god(s), you are still a theist.

relaxxx

12-11-2008, 12:36 PM

Eh this is getting a bit to complicated to me (at least some of it). I'll just leave it at that.

Heres a new question for everyone.

What if I just lived? Dont be a dick or anything. But not really focus on religion. Would that be atheism? What if you dont actually declare that?

I think you'd be on the right track. Be true to yourself. The golden rule is no divine word, it is common sense to any sociable person with a functioning mind and conscience. To do good deeds simply for the expectation of reward for said good deeds is to be borderline criminally insane. Living "good" and expecting a reward is simply not truly good.

Just remember life is a ride, not a destination and if there is an afterlife we will have great spectator seats to the devil wars! :)JK!

-clementine-

12-11-2008, 05:19 PM

I think only the Devil could torture a man, promise him heaven and make him believe it at the same time! There is no God that demands worship, only Devils. Religion IS surrendering your soul to the Devil, the ultimate deception! I believe the religious are being cultivated as SOULdiers, pawns for an afterlife of war between devils.

I think the God who created us and gave us life and all we have today deserves to be worshipped and has the right to expect it. How could you compare God to the devil?! That is very stupid. God does not torture people He offers salvation.

zombie.

12-11-2008, 09:32 PM

I think the God who created us and gave us life and all we have today deserves to be worshipped and has the right to expect it. How could you compare God to the devil?! That is very stupid. God does not torture people He offers salvation.

But if its all true...god sends people to suffer. People suffer on earth. People are losing their house right now as I speak thanks to the supply and demand bullshit. Too many of them pray. Why dont they have a house? Why arent things looking up? Why is it only getting worse? I dont mean to "attack" you but these are questions that seemed to be unanswered by everyone of the christian faith.

Wiccans are questioned by christians all the time. Buddists are. and countless others are. But for some reason...when a question like that is asked by one of them...it goes on un-answered.

Funkateer

12-11-2008, 09:38 PM

excellent reply zombie

Christians IMHO normally think their the hot shit
Their god is strong better faster and more good looking than all the others
oh yeah and if you dont believe it lakes of fire and hot coals up the butt for eternity
yeah right
heaven and hell are both internal judgements at the end of your life
you will make your own reality after you are gone and eventually you will be back again

lithium

12-11-2008, 11:10 PM

If he's going to go around demanding to be worshipped he could at least have the decency to exist:toetap05:

relaxxx

12-12-2008, 06:45 PM

God does not torture people He offers salvation.

According to the Bible, God clearly tortures people, even just to prove an egomaniacle point to the devil. It would in fact appear that the devil can easily manipulate your so called God to impose suffering on his people.

So then you DON"T believe in the Bible? I could have sworn you were heavily endorsing it a few pages back?

Rudenoodle

12-12-2008, 09:40 PM

So then you DON"T believe in the Bible? I could have sworn you were heavily endorsing it a few pages back?

Most "new age spiritualist" say they do not believe in any holy texts other than the ones they have constructed in there own heads, or if they do pledge allegiance to a well known doctrine will attempt to save face by saying most of the ridicules statements made within it are not to be taken literally.

If you believe in the actual supernatural you have been fooled.

What??

12-12-2008, 09:44 PM

DaveHT

12-13-2008, 04:29 AM

If wasn't for Satan convincing Eve to eat the apple you wouldn't even be able to comprehend the bible. Satan gave mankind the wisdom and knowledge that god denied us. Why did God condemn us to live our live as beasts? Why were we not worthy? I don't believe any of that christian nonsense I just call them like I see them.

Maybe the bible is not gods word but satans? I believe that is more reasonable than the view of most god fearing individuals, but honestly I believe in neither and it is only luck that we are here. The only reason I can comprehend that a true god would do that is to hide himself from the devil, which would imply that god is not omnipotent.

Jimmy P

12-13-2008, 01:46 PM

If he's going to go around demanding to be worshipped he could at least have the decency to exist:toetap05::smilielol5:

clementine, are you for real? you seem to be lacking in the departments of both reading comprehension and common sense. there are so many contradictions, fallacies, bigoted and downright malevolent stories & lectures in the bible, it baffles me that someone who has actually read that book would willingly believe in (not to mention worship!) the evil bastard god it promotes.

zombie, yes, it's perfectly fine to just live. as you live, you will learn, and understand. you will form your own opinions, philosophies and beliefs, and you do not need anything but your inherently good human nature to be a good, moral person. you don't have to label yourself anything.