What is the point of life??

[Scorpion88]

Some times I feel everyday is the same, infact often, I feel that I shouldn't have been born!!
Life is difficult I feel that its poiintless and envy peoople who seemto be enjoying it infact sometimes,I feel like the hamster on the wheel!!
I wasn't born with amazing gifts, well not what I know of!!Apart from reproduction what is there,I have things I wan't to do, but I don't have a real lust for life.
why is it that some people do , and others merely exist!!Life is what you make it, I know but thats not fair so in other words unless you are like the hamster that hapilly runs around its cage you are fckd!!

[Peace]

I think a common mistake made by most people is that we are suppose to have a purpose. Who says we need a purpose. We evolved over time. I guess the only reason we would even have a purpose is because Humans, unlike other animals and organism, have the Mind. The Mind is the most powerful tool known to man. This gives us the power to ask, "Why are we here?". So next time don't think of asking, "Why are we here?", but rather ask, "What can I do to make life a greater thing to all organism, not just my kind?".

Good luck with your journey of Life. :)
-Peace

[ChiefCowpie]

to play with God

[HuckFinn]

You can take the blind existential leap that Mr. "Peace" recommends and try find fulfillment in an absurd impersonal universe, or you can humbly seek the truth of the Creator revealed to mankind in both creation itself and his spoken word:

http://www.antithesis.com/features/dignity.html

[veinglory]

Everyone finds their own answer to that. I am fully atheist, but I found that working to help anaimals gave me a purpose. I trained in animal welfare and now work full time in that area. Everyone finds a purpose for themselves in different ways, but the world isn't necessarily going to assign one to you. Certainly helping others is a good one to pick regardless of your beleifs, and it doesn't require any special talents.

[POPthree13]

I think this is one of the biggest problems facing man in modern society. In a worl of fast food, suburbia and television we have forgotten exactly what life is. For billion of years life has struggled to get to this point without the ability to ask why. Breath in breath out, eat, sleep, drink and fuck. This is life... If you were to be dropped into the wilderness without shelter, food or company this would become all too clear. If you had to struggle even for a few days to really stay alive the menaing of life would reveal itself.

Beyond that however, I do beleive life has a purpose. Life has built itself more complex and more intelligent for billions of years and in terms of physics this just doesn't happen for no reason. The reason may be big - too big to see. Just like the effects we have on our world around us. Still every day you me and everyone else is goign to wake up and build the world of tomorrow. Your place in that? I am not sure... It's there though. The decisions you make, the things you buy, the work you do will make tomorrow what it is. It is an awesome responsibility and you shouldn't let looking for a purpose overshadow that.

[Scorpion88]

Thanks for your replies, I must apoligise, I had a drink last night but I suffer from depression all the time and these thoughts are always in my head I hate myself cause unless I'm going for a big goal I feel useless and bored . I have to have constant goal going on, wish I was lkike my elders who were happy rearing children and thats it, but I wan't to do something else I am a parent, and should feel that I have achieved the ut most with that but I don't

I will find my thing eventually just wish life wasn't so hard, Guess I am one of those peoople who has to work hard, I envy those people who were born confident and able to learn and do well academically, I have to study hard as it takes me a while to undestand things, and I am still trying to build confidence, but hey shouldn't moan I have my health

[cabdirazzaq]

I remember that I also used to feel like that sometimes, like every day is the same. That you wake up, go to school/work come back and eat,drink,sleep and then the same drill all over again on the following day and on the weekends you tried to force your self to do something exciting but then I suddently found safety and meaning in my religion-islam- which says that any person who does good and belives will have a great reward and finnally I had something to strive for and it gave me all the meaning I needed.

40:40. "He that works evil will not be requited but by the like thereof: and he that works a righteous deed - whether man or woman - and is a Believer- such will enter the Garden (of Bliss): Therein will they have abundance without measure.

The meaning of life according to my religion is to worship the one and only God, but worshipping does not just mean bowing and prostating in prayer or fasting but also different good deeds such as treating ones wife well or ones parents or beeing of the truthfull and other things like that.

51:56. And I created not the Jinn and mankind except that they should worship Me.

[FreakyJoeMan]

The only point of life is to create more life. :D

[gnrm23]

the point of life is to be able to ask questions like "what is the point of life?" ...
heh...

[DharmaBum]

Stop asking a pointless Question and Live..you Can come up with a Thousand Different Reason's for the Point ,but none of them Will Help you. Think about how you would like to live your Life ,Even if it Sound's Bizzarely Odd to most People's Standard's..and Do it.

[Scorpion88]

Yes I agree to your comment to an extent, however,sometimes I can't look at life with that attitude so easily, I suffer from depression, and I'm afraid that is how I feel somtimes like really black.

[Andy73]

Neurosis is when one is prevented from being oneself.

[Scorpion88]

What is meant by that, comment please?

[themnax]

why do people think life needs one? everything that exists is a thing that exists. our own self awair existence among them. the point of avoiding causing harm is so that the harm is not there to have to live with. the point of expressing ourselves creatively is that the compulsion to do so is the appearant and only thangably observable origen of our species' sentience. but existence is existence is existence. have you ever seen a rock or a tree take their own life because they thought their existence pointless? we live in an unimaginably vastly diverse univers. we may even be infant gods. we have an urege to create, and everything a potential to be created with, though again it is up to us to exercize the care to avoid causing harm, for our own mutual and individual sakes.

and there may be all sorts of nontangable forces and beings, potentialy our friends as well. but our world and our avoidance of causing harm is up to us. if there is a point, it is to create what for lack of a better term i'll call beauty, without harming more then we bennifit. if you think causing harm, or prioritising some belief or idiology ahead of the avoidance of doing so, will inprove your chances of eternity, i'm not putting any sidebets on your wager.

[Woog]

Look at you. You're alive. You're aware. You have the rare
opporitunity to exsist, even if it is for a limited engagement.
Enjoy this little peak. Sha na na na na na, live for today.
The only thing you have is now. Do everything you can to enjoy
it as much as you can while not diminishing anyone elses enjoyment
of life. Be good to you and everyone else. And you'll be happy baby!!!!
That's all. Anything else you get, like fame, fortune or an afterlife
are a lucky bonus. Don't make your happiness contingent on any
of that. Be happy. :-)

[Scorpion88]

I'd love to feel like that, but I guess I'm one of those people who can't be happy!!.Only today I feel I'm bored and not achieving enough. Nothing is enough for me, its crap and pathetic I know as today I am lucky to be not ingured as I sat on a bus and the window came through!! iF i'D BEEN SAT ON THE OTHER SEAT I'D BE IN HOSPITAL!!

I'ts infuriating as I just can't be happy, its so difficult, then again I could just be feeling like this as of pmt.

[Andy73]

I will comment on my previous post. This is, of course, my own theory and is incomplete; but it is not really a new idea. I am still thinking it through and considering the implications.

Ok, here goes

Adaptation can occur when one has a sufficient awareness of the reality of their situation. In other words, neurosis is less of a concern for one who is knowledgeable about the fact that they are under pressure to conform to a number of conditions which run counter to their truest inclinations. One still runs the risk of neurosis by neglecting one's nature.

When you take, for example, an artistically inclined child of a college educated family and you place that child in a town whose dominant population is blue collar workers you set the stage for neurosis. Neurosis is not inevitable, although it is nearly so, and the stage is none the less set. The child does not have a penetrating enough knowledge into his own nature - his truest inclinations and what he desires, and the values of his family - to consciously individuate himself from many groups and types of people, including his parents.

Among his peers, at school and everywhere, there will be a pressure to conform. The child does not yet have a firm conception about conformity. He will feel an unconscious pressure to abandon his nature, as it were. And because this pressure is unconscious - meaning that the child feels something which he cannot identify - the child does not clearly articulate it and prescribe for himself a logical course of action or mode of adaptation but instead develops a neurosis.

The dominant culture is, in a sense, not allowing the child to become himself.

The dynamic that I have described in the above paragraph is in overly simplified form. I believe this same dynamic plays a large role in everyone's life in much more complex ways and on higher levels than in the simple case of a child placed into a culture that runs counter to his nature. In essence, the problem faced by everyone is in acquiring their own values as opposed to those they were raised with, inculcated with, i.e. finding oneself. If you have not found yourself, the stage is always set for neurosis; and, in fact, neurosis is part of finding oneself.

[Woog]

I will comment on my previous post. This is, of course, my own theory and is incomplete; but it is not really a new idea. I am still thinking it through and considering the implications.

Ok, here goes

Adaptation can occur when one has a sufficient awareness of the reality of their situation. In other words, neurosis is less of a concern for one who is knowledgeable about the fact that they are under pressure to conform to a number of conditions which run counter to their truest inclinations. One still runs the risk of neurosis by neglecting one's nature.

When you take, for example, an artistically inclined child of a college educated family and you place that child in a town whose dominant population is blue collar workers you set the stage for neurosis. Neurosis is not inevitable, although it is nearly so, and the stage is none the less set. The child does not have a penetrating enough knowledge into his own nature - his truest inclinations and what he desires, and the values of his family - to consciously individuate himself from many groups and types of people, including his parents.

Among his peers, at school and everywhere, there will be a pressure to conform. The child does not yet have a firm conception about conformity. He will feel an unconscious pressure to abandon his nature, as it were. And because this pressure is unconscious - meaning that the child feels something which he cannot identify - the child does not clearly articulate it and prescribe for himself a logical course of action or mode of adaptation but instead develops a neurosis.

The dominant culture is, in a sense, not allowing the child to become himself.

The dynamic that I have described in the above paragraph is in overly simplified form. I believe this same dynamic plays a large role in everyone's life in much more complex ways and on higher levels than in the simple case of a child placed into a culture that runs counter to his nature. In essence, the problem faced by everyone is in acquiring their own values as opposed to those they were raised with, inculcated with, i.e. finding oneself. If you have not found yourself, the stage is always set for neurosis; and, in fact, neurosis is part of finding oneself.
Whoa, so this kid born to a college educated family has a higher artistic
nature and would become nuerotic when exposed to blue collar people.
I'd suggest that in order to better formulate your theorum you should
move out of the suburbs for a spell. Neurosis is caused by a longing
for more in your life. Not more money or education. Certainly class
predjudice can make you nuerotic but often a middle class whelp
exposed to the blue collars of the world will grow from the experience.
Artists and sculptors work with their hands and being exposed to them
would not guarentee neurosis. More likely it would open you to greater
possibilities. Finding yourself involves discovering what makes YOU
happy and doing that thing. That thing can be brick laying or brain surgery.
Whatever floats yer boat.

[Scorpion88]

Interesting, that kind of goes with research on people who suffer from depression, as I do have creative minds . Winston Churchill, called it the black dog, and when he felt this way used to build brick walls or paint.

it is interesting to me, however I haven't found my niche as yet, and that often distresses me.
I've a feeling eventually as I believe in our path being laid out I will find my way, and as long as I keep trying different paths I will get there!!Cheers

[Andy73]

The child has the impression that the surrounding community has gained some insight into life that he has not gained because everyone else seems to 'fit in' with more ease. The child does not see himself as different from the surrounding community, he has not learned this yet as the foundation is being laid for his neurosis.

Indeed, he longs for something more in his life. Not that everyone else is really different; the case of the thorough going neurotic is one of degrees.

Neurosis is the product of two misunderstandings, generally speaking.

First, the individual sufferer must misunderstand himself and the nature and source of his mental pain. Then, second, the surrounding community - and especially the shrinks - must then misinterpret the meaning of his sufferings.

The sufferer of mental pain always comes to interpret, by what ever by paths, his pain from the perspective of the community. It is only when he sees his suffering through his own eyes that he is on the road to recovery.

2

Popular prejudice maintains that neurosis, and in particular all anxiety states, are either closely related or equivalent to fear. This prejudice has come to be widely accepted among the sufferers of anxiety and panic and is pratically an accepted dogma among most mental health counselors.

I boldly contend that fear is often a marginal ingredient in anxiety disorders.

The two most significant ingredients in any anxiety disorder (and by this I mean generally neurotic, as opposed to very specific phobias such as a fear of hieghts) are advantage and disadvantage.

The concepts of advantage and disadvantage are very applicable to all
anxiety disorders.

The following dynamic plays itself out in any anxiety disorder:

First, the anxiety disordered person fails to recogize their
advantages and in turn misunderstands their disadvantages - or in
some cases fails to accept the disadvantages.

Second, the surrounding community fails to clearly acknowledge the
disadvantages of the individual and interprets their frustration as
coming from another source.

There is great misunderstanding in the creation of any anxiety
disorder. And this misunderstanding is both on the part of the
surrounding community and on the part of the individual sufferer.
Those with anxiety disorders have particular disadvantages that are
unique, and they often overlook or forget that these disadvantages
are exceptional and worthy of attention as the anxiety disorder
begins to create itself.

The relationship of the anxiety disordered person to society at large
is analogous to the relationship of an aloof, cold and cerebral
medical doctor to a passionate disease inflicted patient. There are
all sorts of unique and idiosyncratic misunderstandings between the
two, and the nature of the misunderstandings powerfully influences the
degree of anxiety in the sufferer.

Indeed, a benzodiazepine victim who sees a doctor who denies withdrawal
constitutes a relationship that can be considered a microcosm of the
anxiety disordered person's relationship with society at large. The
same dynamic applies in both cases.

In fact, during benzodiazepine withdrawal, one is far more prone to interpreting the reactions or gestures of others as akin to those of a cold and dispassionate doctor. The elements of misunderstanding, advantage and disadvantage are key ingredients in this situation. Those who are
healthy have an advantage over those who are in withdrawal, so the
whole withdrawal experience can provide an important microscope on
how an anxiety disorder operates within a society.

This is why withdrawal sometimes cures an anxiety disorder, for the
first time the sufferer begins to understand himself altogether so
well and sees the ins and outs of all life situations with the utmost
clarity through his/her new microscope.

3

Those who share a particular set of experiences, the status quo or
norm or mainstream, serve as a standard for measuring degrees of
mental health or illness.

Should an individual, or a family, who is living among the status
quo, begin to have experiences different from the group to which they
belong (i.e. loss of a career, status, alcoholism/drug abuse, often
bad experiences,but not always necessarily bad experiences) mental
illness will result when they come into contact with the mental
health profession.

The specific empirical misfortunes in the lives of those whose
experience deviates from the norm are translated into a mental
illness originating in that individual.

Some mental health professionals would agree that mentally healthy
people could in fact have bad experiences, independent of the health
of their minds. The professional might try to draw a distinction
between the different ways in which a mentally healthy person and a
mentally ill person cope with misfortune. This is a good argument up
to a point.

One might say that the extent to which an individual can fit into a
given society is a measure of his mental health. Still there are
probably mental health professionals who would counter this by
saying - the degree to which one feels distress in the pursuit
of "the norm" is a measure of his particular type and degree of
mental illness.

As though everyone should be made to be suited to this norm?! by
drugs or whatever other means there are!? This is the weakness of the
above argument.

Let me clarify what I am saying, by providing an example.

Suppose a college educated family moves to a town dominated by blue-
collar workers who practice a religion that the family is unfamiliar
with. The town from which this family moved is a complete contrast to
the town they are now in.

As some time goes by, the family realizes their 12-year-old son seems
like a loner and is having trouble in school. The 12-year-old seems
moody and anxious most of the time. This is in contrast to his
relatively harmonious and sociable personality in the town that they
used to live in.

Clearly the 12-year-old is worried about something. One night he
begins hyperventilating, and complains that he thinks he is having a
heart attack.

The parents see a drug ad for Xanax on the television. Impressed by
the ad, they take their 12-year-old son to a psychiatrist.

This psychiatrist has spent the bulk of his life in this blue-collar
town.

What the psychiatrist (or any mental health professional) sees in the
12-year-old is a young boy who is somehow "different"; he does not
meet the criteria of the norm.

The psychiatrist also, needless to say, sees an excellent opportunity
to prescribe some Xanax (or Klonopin or Ritilin or Prozac, what not)

The 12 year old will walk out of the psychiatrist's office with ADHD,
bi-polar, GAD, schizotypal personality, panic disorder, who knows
what else.

Here is a norm, the blue-collar town, totally at odds with the 12-
year-olds nature and inclinations. It is not a culture he should even
be expected to fit into.

In fact, paradoxically, it would be more a sign of mental illness if
the 12-year-old became harmoniously integrated into the town that is
completely at odds with his nature and upbringing.

The 12 years olds anxiety, aloneness, and moodiness were a sign of
mental health! not illness!

Indeed, in this situation there was a great deal of "distress in
pursuit of the norm"; so much distress that Xanax was required.

I think one should raise the argument with mental health
professionals as to whether or not it is always desirable to become
harmoniously integrated into the norm.

Feeling distress, becoming a loner, having a panic attack, upon
attempting to achieve the status quo can be a sign of mental health.
It is not in everyone's nature to be a part of "the norm".

Most mental illness is a sign of health.

[Andy73]

4

What the mental health profession does, in my own experience, is
comparable to throwing someone into a snake pit and then - only after
this fact - proclaiming that this person in the snake pit has an
anxiety disorder.

Or it is possible that one is already in a snake pit by the time they
come into contact with the mental health profession.

To this situation of being in a snake pit they add benzos,
antipsychotics, etc. What they fail to recognize is that the
mentally "ill" person, sedated by benzos, is then all the more prone
to being bitten by the snakes.

The mental health profession totally ignores the uniqueness of the
individual and his circumstances. It is never the society or the
circumstances of one's life, but always the individual who is ill.

Any type of misfortune becomes translated into mental illness. If one
has real difficulties in life, one is mentally ill.

To misfortune they add neuroleptics, prozac,benzos, what not, so that
one may sometimes realize that the snake pit has become more densely
packed with snakes by the time they come off the drugs.

5

The mental health establishment has set up a sort of image of the
mentally healthy individual who has a perfectly balanced mood, has no
unwanted or intrusive thoughts, feels anger or sadness on just the
right occasions and never in excess, laughs at only the appropriate
moments, is not anxious unless there is something very concrete and
threatening to worry about, etc.

And of course the goal of psychotropic medicine is to enable one to
live up to this ideal image of mental health. Or in other words to
become harmoniously integrated into a world that is the cause of much
mental disharmony for those who are lacking mental health.

I think the sense (or expectation) that one should live up to a
certain standard (whether conscious or unconscious) is at the core of
many anxiety disorders.

I think that one is on their way towards mental health when something
like the following goes through their mind, "why any standard(s) at
all? Why should I be any particular way? Why should I care what
anyone thinks of me? How about no expectations? if the universe is
pointless, and the existence of humanity is of little consequence in
the grand scheme of things, then why worry about anything?!" .. or
something like this.

Although one who is pessimistic is seen as having a negative point of
view, paradoxically I think that in some ways pessimism can be very
good for one's mental health.

If it can whole-heartedly be concluded that nothing matters, this
often can help to reduce anxiety.

Optimism, while it might be associated with mental health, is
stressful.

Manic-depression is a form of frustrated optimism. It is hope that
collapses in on itself. Where one feels a sense of entitlement and
has high hopes, there one also will be most likely to become angry.
Thus optimism - or anger - can also turn inward and become
depression.

The level of one's sense of entitlement is proportional to their
propensity for anger.

The degree to which one can live without hope is proportional to the
extent to which they are prepared to land upon the rock wall of
reality.

I'm not trying to pursuade anyone to become a pessimist in order to
reduce stress. Nor have I decided whether I'm a pessimist or not.


6

If health is the ability to overcome disease, then mental "illness"
is in a certain sense the inability to overcome an adverse set of
circumstances.

Whether it is more often the individual who is ill is a matter of
much debate.

The problem with mental illness is that an ill culture is often
mistaken for an ill individual.



or, I should say, one of the problems with mental illness is that the
ills of the society are transferred onto the individual when the
individual is incapable of living up to the standards of a certain
norm.

It may in fact be that the norm is a sign of "illness",
metaphorically speaking.

In a "keeping up with the Jones's" type scenario, trying to attain
mental health can make you sick.

7

In the final analysis, what constitutes the phenomenon of mental
illness is a complex and dynamic interaction of a multitude of
forces. Rarely a brain disorder.

Social, economic, individual and biological forces overlap and
intertwine to shape the personality who ends up sitting in the
psychiatrist's office. But I am only stating the obvious.

The curious feature of the mental health system, or a portion of it,
is its approach. It is totally unprofessional, totally unbeneficial
to the mental health of the client.

It is strange to think that many mental health professionals do not
want to promote mental health.

It is not really all that strange because mental illness is their
source of income.

I mean, telling someone they have an anxiety disorder is totally
discouraging. How often do they encourage a client into thinking that
he can overcome his shyness or anxiety on his own and without the
drugs?

This approach is by no means limited to the mental health profession.

When I was doing biofeedback for my neck issue, the woman who was a
biofeedback specialist, in the course of whatever we were discussing,
casually remarked "You're just a very tense person". Like this is
supposed to promote a healing of my neck! Totally unprofessional.

The chief physical therapist where I was doing the biofeedback,
during my first physical therapy session, said "Poor muscle tone,
your lack of exercise shows". I had been experiencing tolerance
withdrawals for over 1 year on .5 Klonopin, and had lost a
considerable amount of weight at this time.

And there is all the usual claptrap, "oh, no you won't get off the
drug, you'll have to take it for the rest of your life", or "just
like a diabetic needs insulin", etc.
If they really wanted you to believe that withdrawal symptoms result
from your underlying anxiety disorder, I would think they would
approach the problem differently. They approach the patient who is
experiencing withdrawal in such a way that he is put on the defensive.

How is the mentally ill patient supposed to feel uplifted and
encouraged and confident with all the prattle and rant that so
frequently is hurled at him?

Much of the medical community, and most of the mental health
establishment, is not in the business of promoting mental health.

[Andy73]

8

As I said above, two conditions are required for mental illness. First, the individual must misunderstand himself and misinterpret his own experiences.
Then, once this first condition is established, the community
surrounding the individual must act out of misunderstanding toward
the individual.

There are circumstances where only the second, not the first,
condition of mental illness dominates. Such cases give rise to poets,
philosophers, and occasionally to the founders of religions.

9

No one is immune from mental illness; soon one will either be a
basket case or an inspired mental health professional.

10

I wonder if, among both doctors and mental health professionals,
there is a conscious attempt to create a self-fulfilling prophecy
once one has acquired a psychiatric diagnosis. Thinking back to some
of the things various professionals have said to me, it appears as
though they were deliberately trying to create an anxiety disorder
from out of the raw material of my specific empirical misfortunes. In
other words, I came to them as a youth that did not understand his
own very concrete and real misfortunes, and in this they saw an
opportunity to create mental illness.

I can recall a long list of comments made over a period of many years
by different professionals, and these seem like some sort of effort
to reinforce a sense that I was not mentally healthy. Thinking back,
this ultimately seems like a form of cruelty toward one who finds
himself in a strange culture (the culture I am in is in the US, but
it is totally different from the culture in the US that I moved from.
In other words I found myself in a town whose inhabitants I could not
relate to, I wasn't a part of the dominant religion, couldn't relate
to any of the kids in school, family started having financial
difficulties upon moving to this strange culture, etc.); as an
adolescent I did have genuinely unfavorable conditions to contend
with, however these conditions were outside of the "norm" that mental
health professionals commonly encounter in the course of their work.

No one took into account the fact that I was an only child. Only
children can often be idiosyncratic, and not necessarily because they
are striving to be idiosyncratic. The first counselor I saw probably
tried to interpret who I was on the basis of the town I was now in,
and had no grasp of the fact that I was coming from a different
culture and that I was an only child. From his vantage point he may
have detected all sorts of schiz's in this child, schizotypal,
schizoaffective, etc. although probably not flat out schizophrenia as
I was clearly coherent.

"you always were an anxious child" .. counselor who I revisited later
on in life

"you're just different" ... a couselor

"you're just a very tense person" .. biofeedback

"..seems rather odd and eccentric .. pressure of speech.." ..
psychiatrist's write up

The list goes on. Once anxious always anxious. And the same applies
to bi-polar, schizoaffective, whatever else.

I think people who are mentally ill really are mentally ill because
they go around believing it.

11

Sometimes an irritable gut or a facial twitch can become generalized
into a hatred of the universe or a profound nausea over mankind's
existence, so too can an awkward frame or weak abdominals set the
stage for schizophrenia - or atleast an anxiety disorder. Perhaps an
oversimplification.

However, I think there are many cases involving elaborate existential
suffering that can be traced back to a relatively small and highly
specific physical discomfort.

In the past I have not traced my existential angst back to the
trivial and mundane. In fact I hoped that it might have an abstract,
if not mystifying, origin. Upon reflection, years later, I am
gradually becoming aware of a long list of concrete facts that are
undeniably the foundation of enormous mental strife.

I now possess a list of the precise physical causes beneath any DSM
IV diagnosis I have ever received.

The mental health establishment, for all its faults, has given me a
more profound self-knowledge than would have been possible without
such experiences. I feel I have a more thorough self-mastery than
those whose circumstances have been more fortunate.

12

I don't think that one should be labeled as mentally ill unless an
objective test can verify the presence of illness. Illness refers to
something physical and demonstrable. It does not make much sense to
talk of an illness as something mental.

I think that mental illness is a term used to label those behaviors
that are undesirable. Gambling and alcoholism are now considered to
be illnesses, and there's absolutely no evidence that they are
illnesses. More and more behaviors are becoming illnesses.

By far the greater majority of those who see a psychiatrist have no
real brain disorders. Those with real brain disorders, or signs of
illness, belong to the domain of the neurologist. I don't know of any
psychiatrists who conduct tests to determine the presence of an
illness in a patient who is being diagnosed.

Accordingly I do not believe that there are any types of anxiety
disorders that warrant long-term bz treatment.

[Andy73]

13


The medical model of mental illness has certainly created new
problems in attempting to treat the ones that already exist for the
patient. The bz withdrawal syndrome is but one example of a problem
created by the medicalizing of life's problems.

When bzs are pescribed, I think that very often the original problem
is swept under the rug rather than dealt with. Whatever the original
set of problems was is then compounded by all the complications that
can arise from long-term use of bzs.

The medical establishment and the mental health system now have a
significant mess on their hands. - Not to mention the mess that those
in withdrawal from various drugs may have to deal with-. Both the
victims of the drugs and doctors and mental health professionals will
have to confront the problem one way or another. I think the more it
is swept under the rug, the worse it will become.

Can they really get away with the medicalizing of mental health
without it coming back to bite them? I don't know for sure, I suppose
it is possible that they could.

Bzs were prescribed to cover up problems. But now they are trying to
cover up the fact that bzs are the problem. I would like to see the
mental health profession and doctors confront the problem head on.

I'm not against the taking of psychotropic drugs to cope with real
life problems, that is for one to decide. I'm not against one seeing
a mental health professional. These points are not the thrust of my
argument.

I'm skeptical about the idea of a non-physical "underlying condition"
being unmasked while tapering from bzs.

It seems that there are many who misinterpret the real problems in
their lives as depression and anxiety (or any other mental illness)

I think that most people (not all) who are depressed or anxious would
be able to point to real life issues that are generating their mental
distress.



When it comes to purely physical problems, one should definitely
check with a competent medical doctor to see if there is an
underlying condition emerging upon withdrawal from bzs.

However, here and elsewhere, I have seen people withdrawing from bzs
encourged to have a suspected underlying "mental" condition evaluated
by a mental health professional.

The problem is that the idea of an "underlying condition" is used by
mental health professionals to justify further treatment with
psychotropic drugs.

The diagnosis made by a medical doctor and a mental health
professional are two entirely different things.

When a mental health professional gives one a
diagnosisof "bipolar", "shchizotypal", "GAD", "depression", etc. the
validity of this diagnosis as it pertains to an actual biological
condition is of no more significance than anyone else's opinion. That
is the problem with having an "underlying condition" treated by a
mental health professional. No objective and independently verifiable
tests are performed by a mental health professional in the process of
determining what your condition is.

While withdrawing from bzs, there are a few approaches that might be
wiser than visiting a mental health professional if you suspect the
return of an "underlying condition".

1- go to a medical doctor or a neurologist and have the actual tests
performed for GAD or bi-polar or whatever. This way you will know if
you are truly mentally ill and what chemicals need to be balanced.

2-ask yourself what the actual life problems are that are causing
mental distress. It may not be possible to solve all the problems,
and it may require thinking differently. In some cases that is
actually the solution to an underlying condition, thinking
differently.

One may indeed need to change in order to cope with coming off bzs.
Very often (not always) an underlying condition, anxiety disorder,
depression, etc. is simply the expression of a great difficulty in
changing or thinking differently in some or all aspects of one's life.


Mental health professionals do not deal with illness.

Believing one has a mental illness in no way proves that one has an
illness.

I will try to clarify my position.

I do not intend to imply that mental problems don't exist; clearly
depression, anxiety, manic behavior, etc. all really exist. These are
psychological and social problems until proven otherwise.

There are people who are clearly psychotic and delusional. In no way
does this imply an illness. Definitely not a literal physical
illness, because psychiatrists do not have any tests to prove this.

Mental "illness" is a metaphor for those thoughts, behaviors, moods,
which are undesirable. The mental health profession would want you to
believe that people are walking around with real mental illneses.
This is an oxymoron.

An illness is a physical malfunction.

Thoughts and behaviors cannot be illnesses.

One cannot literally be mentally "ill". Even a bona fide brain
disorder is not mental, it is a purely physical phenomenon. A brain
disorder may manifest itself as mental disorder.

My position is that the existence of illness has never been
demonstrated as the cause of any of the alleged "illnesses" in the
Diagnostic and Statistics manual used by psychiatrists.

Psychiatrists do not perform independently verifiable tests to
determine if someone has a mental illness. A psychiatrist's diagnosis
is an opinion about your behavior and state of distress, it has
nothing to do with illness.

I think that if there are illnesses that are mental, these should be
verified by neurologists and treated accordingly. If I suspected I
had a mental illness, I would go to a neurologist and not a mental
health professional.

If one suffers profoundly and one has hallucinations and cannot fit
into society this is not a literal illness. It might be considered a
metaphorical "illness".

With all of the images they have of the brain's of mentally ill
people, and all of the studies they have done linking one
neurotrasmitter to this or that feeling or behavior, and whatever
else is supposed to prove mental illness, I do not see one shred of
evidence for mental illness.

If I had no experience with this time consuming withdrawal syndrome
produced by bzs, perhaps I would'nt be so critical of the mental
health profession. I would'nt have thought about it a whole lot.

I think the mental health profession deserves the criticism. They
have produced a LOT of suffering, and now they want to deny it.

[Dr. Lecter]

There is no point in life. That's the beauty of it. It's just a bunch of random shit and we are all its random accidents. And we keep having to go to the bathroom all the time. That's what's so amusing about life; watching so many people desparately try to find so many purposes in an exercise in pure bullshit.

Human beings love to look for some deeper meaning in life because it makes them think they're important and sanctified in some way. But the bottom line is, each one of us is less than a penny's worth of hydrogen, oxygen and carbon. We humans are an embarrassing, flawed species and there is no hope for us and we will never amount to anything. So enjoy the meaninglessness of it all.

I'm quite the optimist, aren't I?

[POPthree13]

Optimist indeed! :)

I agree we spend way too much time trying to find meaning in life, but I disagree that it has no meaning.
I look for meaning, not to waste my time, but the more I understand about the nature of reality the more I appreciate the amazing nature of whats going on here.
Perhaps we are a penny's worth of elements, but for some unknown reason those elements have combined into a sentient being which combined with a bunch of other sentient beings, holds the keys to the possible destruction of a planet.

I take comfort in some unknowable purpose. The fact that there is purpose is reason enough for me. What is the purpose? An egotisitical question at the least. Did fish ask the purpose before dragging themselves to land?

[geckopelli]

Upon near approach to Death, the answer comes easy:

To Live.

[The Sin]

hi , this is like my first post on this forum ... uhh... although i'm only 15 yrs old .. and i hav crappy spelling... i think i understand life more then most 15 yrs old ...
for the past few months ... i've had 4 friends who wanted to commit suecide...
all of them wanted to die cuz they saw no point in life... well.. there is a point in life .. and it was not to seek knowladge and build nukes , tvs , computers , robots , weapons of mass destruction ... i'm not sure what you'r point of life is since everyone will have a different point of life... but alot of teenagers jsut want to get laid ... get high ... and those are jsut for them to get excitement... like playing videogames... and for those kids who have no interest or are bored in games.. and don't like crack "not that i do drugs.." i guss they are the ones most likely to kill them self ... stupid fools .. thats what i think anyways... depression is only caused by oneself ... no one can make you depressed if you arn't... there is always something good after something bad happens...
just like 9/11 "please don't hate me for saying this.." although many people died and stuff... it brought many american back together and reminded them who they were after ... "although i hate americans ... no offence" many bad things have happened to my life.. i used to believe in god too... but then i noticed how so many people worship god for help .. and power to overcome something. .. i feel that , that is an act of cowardness... so i stopped worshiping god.. not because i don't beleave in him/her ... i know that there are religous people in this world that don't use god as a tool .. but actually worships him/her and stuff... but i'm kinda too lazy to be one of those people .. i often like to be by my self ... i thought to my self many times why i am alive ... it is pretty point less.. if you suck .. u live in the streets and die .. if you are successful , you get rich and die.. either ways you die ... but the world is so big ... and i doubt you've been and seen everything in the world .. in one of those places in the world .. perphaps you will find "your" point in life ... so don't die .. if it is destiny , then you will find that point in your life one day..

[POPthree13]

I agree. Don't die. That would suck.

[themnax]

the point of anyone's life is pretty much what that individual person chooses to make it.

how much you or i accomplesh toward that point may depend on many things,
circumstantial and otherwise. but this is one of those things that we do get to choose.
that it isn't cast into stone and set there before us.

=^^=
.../\...

[talula]

I think life is just an adventure and we have to make the most of it. If you are miserable I think it is a sign that you gotta try somethin new. Never know what's waiting around the next corner...