Lao Tzu - Tao Te Ching

[neodude1212]

He who knows does not speak; he who speaks does not know. -Tao Te Ching; Lao Tsu







but is this always true?

I dont think so.

[darrellkitchen]

but is this always true?

I dont think so. ^

[neodude1212]

^





but Lao Tsu spoke(wrote).

so according to his own saying, he does not know. which means the statement "he who knows does not speak; he who speaks does not know." is not necessarily true.

[OlderWaterBrother]

but Lao Tsu spoke(wrote).

so according to his own saying, he does not know. which means the statement "he who knows does not speak; he who speaks does not know." is not necessarily true.
Yes, I agree, on the surface this does appear to be a statement that refers to it self.

But on examination you can see that Lao Tzu was saying that someone who truly knows "the way" does not speak about "the way", not that they don't speak at all, much like the Beatle song that says; though she thought I knew the answer, well I knew but I could not say.

Still, I would like to hear what Darrell has to say about this.

[neodude1212]

Yes, I agree, on the suface this des appear to be a statement that refers to it self.

But on examination you can see that Lao Tsu was saying that someone who truly knows "the way" does not speak about "the way", not that they don't speak at all, much like like the Beatle song that says; though she thought I knew the answer, well I knew but I could not say.

Still, I would like to hear what Darrell has to say about this.


I think my point still applies.

If someone truely knew they way, why would they speak not of it? wouldn't their knowledge be of immense benefit to humanity as a whole?

[kaminoishiki]

I think my point still applies.

If someone truely knew they way, why would they speak not of it? wouldn't their knowledge be of immense benefit to humanity as a whole?

It's beyond words really. So If you explain it with words, you're conceptualising it as something other than itself , which is basically contradicting yourself. It's something that each individual has to experience first hand, rather than try to understand ( understanding is not the same as experiencing)

[darrellkitchen]

... Still, I would like to hear what Darrell has to say about this.
... I think my point still applies. ...
I am me ...

There, I spoke with knowing ... yet ... I realize the futility in claiming self in any of this; these!

I am not Lao Tzu. Nor can I know the mind of any claiming becoming outside the six-base which is condition for my own becoming.

All one can do is speculate(indulge in conjectural thought):
...
...

[radareyes]

I am me ...

There, I spoke with knowing ... yet ... I realize the futility in claiming self in any of this; these!


And yet you continue to do so.


I am not Lao Tzu. Nor can I know the mind of any claiming becoming outside the six-base which is condition for my own becoming.

All one can do is speculate(indulge in conjectural thought):


You mean like the speculation that the passage refers to claiming self in speech? Or perhaps the speculation that myself or Kaminoishiki indulged in speculation? :)

Travis

[OlderWaterBrother]

I am me ...

There, I spoke with knowing ... yet ... I realize the futility in claiming self in any of this; these!

I am not Lao Tzu. Nor can I know the mind of any claiming becoming outside the six-base which is condition for my own becoming.

All one can do is speculate(indulge in conjectural thought):
Thanx Darrell, a nice bit of eastern philosophy.

I kind of thought that your answer would be something like that but I was wondering.

But as for me;
It may only be western philosophy, but I like it!

As for eastern philosophy; I've learn that if your cup of tea is filled to the brim, drink it, don't try to put more tea in it!

[darrellkitchen]

radareyes: And yet you continue to do so.

* Aye ... so be it!

radareyes: Or perhaps the speculation that myself or Kaminoishiki indulged in speculation?

* It's unfortunate you lack understanding in my statement, yet you understand Lao Tzu. Everyone speculates ... everyone! Don't feel so special in thinking that you were singled out with intent.

[OlderWaterBrother]

radareyes: And yet you continue to do so.

* Aye ... so be it!

radareyes: Or perhaps the speculation that myself or Kaminoishiki indulged in speculation?

* It's unfortunate you lack understanding in my statement, yet you understand Lao Tzu. Everyone speculates ... everyone! Don't feel so special in thinking that you were singled out with intent.

Darrell, I see that, by your comments, that you haven't walked very far in the way.

Which is a good thing.

So that after you catch the bull you won't have very far to return home!

[radareyes]

radareyes: And yet you continue to do so.

* Aye ... so be it!

radareyes: Or perhaps the speculation that myself or Kaminoishiki indulged in speculation?

* It's unfortunate you lack understanding in my statement, yet you understand Lao Tzu. Everyone speculates ... everyone! Don't feel so special in thinking that you were singled out with intent.

Rigid belief systems do not accompany enlightened consciousness.

Travis

[darrellkitchen]

... after you catch the bull you won't have very far to return home!
Kamma

[darrellkitchen]

Rigid belief systems do not accompany enlightened consciousness.
Loosen up ...

[radareyes]

Loosen up ...



You first... ;)

Travis

[OlderWaterBrother]

Kamma
MU

[darrellkitchen]

You first...
I was already!

[darrellkitchen]

MU
Mmmm!

[OlderWaterBrother]

Mmmm!



:smilielol5:

[pineapple08]

Hi

He who knows does not speak; he who speaks does not know. -Tao Te Ching; Lao Tsu.

Conversation be damned, how pathetic, knowledge is always shared and acknowledged, It could not be otherwise.

[neodude1212]

um....

why are posts missing?

[bluesafire]

He who knows does not speak; he who speaks does not know. -Tao Te Ching; Lao Tsu

but is this always true?

I dont think so.

Perhaps he's saying that THAT which is there to know can't be spoken of, but knowing this, we can go ahead and speak about it.

Words can only point to the truth.. but always stop shy of... and then it's up to us to look at what they're pointing to, and then let the words (and thoughts) drop away. :)

[darrellkitchen]

Eeep ... uhm ... hang on a moment fella's ...

This is not the Christian forum. Unless the regular posters of the Taoism forum don't mind you posting Christian-related quotes from the Bible, you may want to perhaps make another thread in the Christian forum related to the direction this topic is going.

And even then, Skip has posted a New Rule (http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/showthread.php?t=232007)in the Christian forum stipulating NO BIBLE QUOTES! (sorry for the all-caps, its a direct quote). So rather than quotes or pastes from other sites, you may want to afford links to places on the web that support your arguments, perhaps similar to what I did on the "New Rule" link above.

Skip asked me (without directly saying) to move the thread as the thread topic was about Taoism (Tao Te Ching).

So if the topic is not related to the topic of the thread, a saying by Lao Tzu from the Tao Te Ching, then it might be best to branch outside of this thread to a new one in the appropriate forum related to the "new" topic-at-hand.

Sorry.

Thanks!

PS: if you would like, I can split the unrelated posts off in the appropriate forum.

[OlderWaterBrother]

Eeep ... uhm ... hang on a moment fella's ...

This is not the Christian forum. Unless the regular posters of the Taoism forum don't mind you posting Christian-related quotes from the Bible, you may want to perhaps make another thread in the Christian forum related to the direction this topic is going.

And even then, Skip has posted a New Rule (http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/showthread.php?t=232007)in the Christian forum stipulating NO BIBLE QUOTES! (sorry for the all-caps, its a direct quote). So rather than quotes or pastes from other sites, you may want to afford links to places on the web that support your arguments, perhaps similar to what I did on the "New Rule" link above.

Skip asked me (without directly saying) to move the thread as the thread topic was about Taoism (Tao Te Ching).

So if the topic is not related to the topic of the thread, a saying by Lao Tzu from the Tao Te Ching, then it might be best to branch outside of this thread to a new one in the appropriate forum related to the "new" topic-at-hand.

Sorry.

Thanks!

PS: if you would like, I can split the unrelated posts off in the appropriate forum.



Sorry, Darrell, I have the bad habit of when someone asks me a direct question, I just answer it. Most times forgeting what the thread is all about until someone reminds me.
I'll try to do better but thanx for the reminders!

[Bl4ck3n3D]

I think my point still applies.

If someone truely knew they way, why would they speak not of it? wouldn't their knowledge be of immense benefit to humanity as a whole?

It is up to the individual to to find out for themselves. Those who know, lead the path.

Ofcourse though, his post is a contradiction it itself, which one make mine a contradiction as to. But sometimes we give a helping hand to show the people the path.

[bthizle1]

but Lao Tsu spoke(wrote).

so according to his own saying, he does not know. which means the statement "he who knows does not speak; he who speaks does not know." is not necessarily true.

He also claimed that he was not a wise sage, nor had he ever meet or even heard of one before. So perhaps he's just restating that?

[zombiewolf]

Perhaps for the western new-age mind it would be better put as;

One who knows the mystery of the universe also knows it is ineffable.
One who proclaims to know the mystery, surely knows nothing.

Buddhist's got a good one too;

If you see the Buddha on the road, kill him!

It means the same thing.

There are no answers, only a mysterious path (Tao)

[Son of Peace]

He who knows does not speak; he who speaks does not know. -Tao Te Ching; Lao Tsu

Perhaps Lao Tsu understood that even when wise men spoke of things of which they had the unrivaled understanding of, they would not be heeded. Many a true word falls dead before the partial ear of society.

[woody666]

I have three takes on it.....

1) To have some understanding of Tao is to know that you'll never really understand Tao, and you'll never really be able to explain even the little you do understand.

2) Understanding that every action contains its opposite, the attempt to explain inevitably will also in some way add to the confusion.

3) Your path is not my path. What is right for me is not necessarily right for you.


...then again, by definition, if I'm talking about it I obviously don't know :)

[zombiewolf]

I have three takes on it.....

1) To have some understanding of Tao is to know that you'll never really understand Tao, and you'll never really be able to explain even the little you do understand.

2) Understanding that every action contains its opposite, the attempt to explain inevitably will also in some way add to the confusion.

3) Your path is not my path. What is right for me is not necessarily right for you.


...then again, by definition, if I'm talking about it I obviously don't know :)

:hurray::hurray::hurray: