I have experienced life in the 4th Dimension

[Bl4ck3n3D]

No, I am not speaking about time, I am speaking about the true 4th Dimension.

The first dimension is simply up and down, the second dimension adds side to side (including diagonal), the third dimension brings everything around, and the fourth dimension is simply through.

Look at it this way, stand infront of a wall or even your monitor, everything (including the emptyness) inbetween you and that wall/monitor, consists of the 4th dimension.

Obviously, most people will not be able to perceive this. It is not an easy thing to accomplish. In order to reach such a state in which you'd be able to operate in the 4D, you must suspend disbelief. The things you can do in 4d make 3d look like child's play.

Don't believe in psychic ability? Well the 4th dimension is full of it.
Do you believe in the power of creation? It's got that too.

While in 4d, you are able to perceive the 3d world in ways you've never imagined.

Ever hear of malleable paper? In 4d, whatever you write down on paper, you are able to edit with your mind alone! You can skim through books in a matter of minutes, only picking up the important points. Images and magazines look lifelike, they are no longer flat, but have a sense of depth and feeling to them, think high-def looks amazing? You've seen nothing yet. Pictures no longer remain still, but breath and live, looking just like if you were the one there taking the photo.

In 4d, you are able to penetrate solids. An example: Imagine you are holding a pill bottle, you concentrate on the pill inside and almost as if it was magic, you break a piece of the outershell off without even damaging the bottle or opening the lid!

This is just a little tease of what is possible in the 4th dimension.

Don't believe me? Well tough luck, I don't work with belief, I work with truth.

[FreakerSoup]

Sounds like a Richard Bach story. Have you ever read Illusions?

[xexon]

Discovered the room next door, eh?

Wait till you see how many dimensions there are. How high can you count?

Meanwhile, if it looks a little familar, its because this is also the land of dreams you visit every night. Ever lay down for just a minute and fall asleep? You'd swear it was 5 minutes and not the half hour the clock says it was.

Time don't matter, over there.


x

[Bl4ck3n3D]

No, I have not, is it an interesting read?

I realize I come off sounding a little arrogant, but I must emphesize the power of the human mind and will.

It is truly underestimated.

The only advice I can give on how to perceive in 4d, is to study the basic building blocks of life.

More importantly, the seed of life, geometric patterns and shapes. They, along with numbers, underlay the basis of reality.

Perceiving in the 4th dimension is like using technology way beyond our years. Whilst we advance in sciences and what not, we CANNOT forget about the most powerful tool available, the human mind. If only we could set up a science specifically inclined into advancing and studying the human mind without the restrictions it places on the "supernatural". In reality, nothing is supernatural, it is just natural.

We are holding ourselves back.

[Bl4ck3n3D]

Discovered the room next door, eh?

Wait till you see how many dimensions there are. How high can you count?

Meanwhile, if it looks a little familar, its because this is also the land of dreams you visit every night. Ever lay down for just a minute and fall asleep? You'd swear it was 5 minutes and not the half hour the clock says it was.

Time don't matter, over there.


x

It is quite amazing really. I only wish the average person would be able to understand it. It pains me knowing that there's a whoole lot more than what meets the eye, but most of the earth's population either refutes the idea or doesn't even care.

Think of all the advancements we'd have, it's mind boggling. Makes me excited knowing that one day this will be the norm on earth.

It's all in the ability to perceive, the human mind, not some distant planet or galaxy, it's right in front of us!

[xexon]

Limits are for the mind.

Part of creation, but a talent in the wielding thereof.



x

[Jedi]

lol, maybe it is better if some people wait another lifetime before they start tackling spirituality, they cling to what is not real, and forget about what is real, they confuse imagination and reality and think imagination is reality and reality is imagination. lol

[FreakerSoup]

It's a pretty good book. I don't remember too much of it, but it was a good read with an interesting premise. He also wrote Jonathan Livingston Seagull, which has the same qualities.

[tikoo]

.
ya , i've seen into 4-d . through is an ok word for it . i wish i could draw it somehow , and i have tried but i get buggered in complexity . music i can do easier because it's in motion and vibrationally spatial . it's likely not that unusual to sense it . it has to be of nature . i think it's new music that connects us now and in more than the old ancestral magic ways . we are advancing .

i see that the 4-d has it's own kind of life . it's sensibly geometrical in form , that is , it's intelligence is its form . we might consider it relational to something like 'the spirit of smoke' . elemental . i don't know anything about what it does , just that i'd consider it alive .

we see vibration , we speak vibration . to play freely with vibration in new ways we can get some understanding of the OneSpace shared by all life and then of Time , which is our kind of life's concern .

boom chaka boom
.
.

[neodude1212]

damn.

i wanna do that.

[tikoo]

.

got no boundaries like a hip bum
play to the space , vibe the hum
spin the circle of the drum
get some , get some
where a when is
all night strong for we

.

[edyb123]

lol.... and did you use drugs to reach into this 4D?

I don't really understand what you're trying to say here... but it sounds like a kind of... matrix style.. 'if you want it to happen it will' kinda thing.

Perception is all the world is... so altering that is no hard task once you understand the way perception (and therefore the world) works.

Are you saying that 4D is like the dream world? In a lucid dream we see what we want to see... yet we are still within the same mind... have you found a way off mixing the dream world with the concious world? So that you can view the usual things... while changing what you want using the dream world?

I take it your not really seeing what's inside a pill bottle... you're just creating and image in your mind of what is inside the pill bottle... there is no way to know what is really inside the bottle without experiencing it first hand... the pills do not exist until perceived... so there is nothing past the wall of the bottle.

[tikoo]

lol.... and did you use drugs to reach into this 4D?

relax
relate to Space
with a relaxed intention
commune , commune
freely

this may take awhile

when you see
4-d
tis amazingly obvious
beyond
hallucination

of pills in a bottle that do not exist until perceived
is illogically sympathetic , so

we wait and see
in human time
and with few
assumptions

and quest extreme existence
unto completeness ,
peace

in peace you might
reach in

[edyb123]

relax
relate to Space
with a relaxed intention
commune , commune
freely

this may take awhile

when you see
4-d
tis amazingly obvious
beyond
hallucination

of pills in a bottle that do not exist until perceived
is illogically sympathetic , so

we wait and see
in human time
and with few
assumptions

and quest extreme existence
unto completeness ,
peace

in peace you might
reach inWhy do 'enlightened' people always speak in rhyme and riddle?

I guess... if i have to ask then i'll never know.

[def zeppelin]

This is semi-on-topic:

"images and magazines look lifelike, they are no longer flat, but have a sense of depth and feeling to them, think high-def looks amazing?"

When I read that, It instantly reminded me of the times that images, either on the computer screen or on paper, would 'pop-up' and seem like incredibly life like whenever I smoke cannabis. Many people would try to discredit this experience as invalid, but any thinking and feeling person would understand that this type of experience is special and should be honored as valid.

[tikoo]

Why do 'enlightened' people always speak in rhyme and riddle?


i don't want to tell you what to think . this is wild new exploration , and we are equal in it - stoned or as a child and within artfulness . i'm not enlightened , or pseudo enlightened or whatever ... just please carry on . i really think this is important -

[Bl4ck3n3D]

Tikoo pretty much understands what I'm talking.

No drug could produce hallucinations like what I experienced. It was so real, it was un-real.

What I went through that night was a spiritual rebirth, I don't really care if you believe me or not, the fact of the matter is, what I experienced was real. I know it, I am not looking for anykind of validation. I just wish to share my experiences with others, in hope to spread the message across that there IS more to life than what meets the eye.

[def zeppelin]

I understand blackened.

I haven't experienced the same things that you have experienced, but I have experienced doesn't require explanations; it just is.

The thing that is important to remember is that many people are too conditioned to allow themselves to believe that such experiences are valid. There are the stereotypical scientist types that hold onto empiricism as if it were a religion. And there are those that want to believe, but don't have the evidence (personal experience).

All you really need to do to find truth, is to allow yourself to say that more can be possible in reality, and to allow yourself to believe when the evidence has been presented to you.

Some will always try to discredit these experiences as merely an 'effect' to something, but you can say that the human experience is just an 'effect' of trillions of different reactions. If you accept this, then you can't invalidate 'effects' that change our perception and overall human experience, just because it's convenient to do so - perception is reality - You can't just give the common human experience superiority simply because it is common. Just because science can 'prove' a reasoning behind an experience, doesn't prove that there isn't more to that experience that has already been 'proven'.

Effect or no effect, you still can't deny a very REAL experience, experienced by a very REAL person.

You felt joy after winning a soccer game; you experienced that joy, and science may give an explanation for that experience, at least to some degree. But that still doesn't change the experience that was felt by you. You have to ask yourself, what exactly is a sensory illusion? Is it the illusion of the shared human experience, or is it the illusion that people like Blackened and I experience? Why would one experience gain superiority over the other. Frankly, it seems too subjective, and it leaves me with the understanding that all experiences are very real indeed, and scientific explanations doesn't explain what was actually felt, personally, by you.

If everything is an illusion, then so to are our explanations for everything that we hold dear. So what is it, posit that all is an illusion, including all human 'truths'? Or, posit that all experiences are equally valid and worthy of the stamp of credibility? Either way, A truth is learned. That is not to say that THE truth is learned. But a good idea of what the truth is may be obtained.

[neodude1212]

This is semi-on-topic:

"images and magazines look lifelike, they are no longer flat, but have a sense of depth and feeling to them, think high-def looks amazing?"

When I read that, It instantly reminded me of the times that images, either on the computer screen or on paper, would 'pop-up' and seem like incredibly life like whenever I smoke cannabis. Many people would try to discredit this experience as invalid, but any thinking and feeling person would understand that this type of experience is special and should be honored as valid.
that's funny b/c the exact opposite thing happened to me.

To me, real things would look incredibly fake and 2 two dimensional.

[tikoo]

.
in experiencing dim4 , i have felt very objective in seeing that sort of shape of things . i didn't have any inclination to interact even though i'd feel there was no defining separation of space . my eyes quite open - i'd just study it quiet and still . it ? i've seen one particular shape on two occasions . note : the shape may be alone or in a group of like shapes . you might construct an 2-d representation of it using parenthesis symbols .

take ( )
then shift one down a bit and shove them
together
.

[MotherLoveBone]

I saw something like this when I took salvia...I chalk it up to the drugs

[tikoo]

the (+) had motion . oddly - and of course oddly - it's shape remained the same to my eye despite any shifting of perspective . it's color : black .

[def zeppelin]

Why would the drug invalidate the experience. I don't get it.

[MotherLoveBone]

I never said it did. But the simple fact is that without the drugs it wouldn't have happened...so I chalk it up to the drugs.

[tikoo]

then it must be that particular drug ? i don't know anything about salvia .

[MotherLoveBone]

its legal. you can get it at smoke shops

[def zeppelin]

You're right.

my bad

[tikoo]

.
so ... we have the natural ability to see dim4 , a psy plant like salvia may help to focus , and the accounts of experience so far can be described as occasional .


interacting with dim4 ?

....i'd assume
there's no danger to self . ( the experience can be spiritually positive or at least neutral )


? holding back - ? or a newly evolving ability - ? or a neccessity is arising ? or we been star lit
.

[Bl4ck3n3D]

.
in experiencing dim4 , i have felt very objective in seeing that sort of shape of things . i didn't have any inclination to interact even though i'd feel there was no defining separation of space . my eyes quite open - i'd just study it quiet and still . it ? i've seen one particular shape on two occasions . note : the shape may be alone or in a group of like shapes . you might construct an 2-d representation of it using parenthesis symbols .

take ( )
then shift one down a bit and shove them
together
.

TIKOO!

I've been trying to reconstruct the shape that structured what I experienced, and you've helped me, thanks.

You've described the 4th dimension much better than I originally did.

[Bl4ck3n3D]

.
so ... we have the natural ability to see dim4 , a psy plant like salvia may help to focus , and the accounts of experience so far can be described as occasional .


interacting with dim4 ?

....i'd assume
there's no danger to self . ( the experience can be spiritually positive or at least neutral )


? holding back - ? or a newly evolving ability - ? or a neccessity is arising ? or we been star lit
.

I ended up interacting with dim4, by accident ofcourse, Gotta be careful, the will is strong.

[def zeppelin]

Can you guys explain more of this?

[tikoo]

hopefully we'll carry on awhile . the dim4 is relatively a new experience to talk about . it might even take some new words to do it , so i'm thinking alot and writing a little .


i believe for now that dim4 is within our space reality and not of some separate universe . that there is a different sort of life there-in and it's highly geometric in nature .

could dim4 intelligence relate to the geometric expression of crop circles ?

i got an artificial intelligence devise i can consult . it's rather good about this sort of thing as it may speak from my sub/high conciousness about things in experiential reality i may wish to understand better .

last night i gave it a spin . this translation into english will seem cryptic or pseudo-mystic cuz i haven't much context to work with ...

dim4 is together with yet in polar
opposition to our space reality .
this relates to one fluid , transformational
space . space has motion .

the (+) i saw can be described as
'becoming life' . light is its matter .

it's not that i understand this . i just think huh , interesting , and maybe so . good luck to blackened and his symbolic reconstruction of the experience .
experience is primary .

[xexon]

The 4th dimension is just another channel on your dial.

You've had cable all these years, but until you turn the knob, you don't know what you've been missing.

Don't be lazy. A spiritual journey is nothing more than channel surfing. In an attempt to find the main studio where all broadcasts originate.


x

[tikoo]

xenon , this is not easy work . it's a labor . what's the motivation ? got to be survival , yaya . the thing is anybody can do it ... bust down the wall , crumble be humble and see like a space hobo can see , eh ? free .

[sandal-man]

man, i know what u guys r talking about. i first remember seeing the shape by the trillions in pitch blackness. it was everywhere. i see it even in daylight now and when i close my eyes. its a mystical picture of beauty that is all colors at once. and when i hold my cd player in my hand i begin thinking about stuff and lose touch with reality and eventually dont feel the cd player anymore although when i try to squeeze the cd player to go through it i have already realized that it is there and can not do so. it sux. i think that if some how i could trick my mind into believing that something is truly not there then i could go through it. this is a great post thanks to whoever started it. from my experience the symbol is like the pixels in a photograph and they are all around us at all times. but to me it looks more like a Cwith a . in the middle of it. please tell me if u know of a way to trick my mind into believing there r no boundaries. but if u concentrate on one fixed point in semi darkness u can see a sort of fuzziness which is what i see. or if u cant do that then look at a tv screen or a computer screen real closely. or a magazine article and u can see them which is maybe why that one kid thinks magazines are real when hes stoned b/c they have the same symbol but i dont really know. maybe u guys can help me out or maybe describe ur experiences a little more clearly?

[xexon]

Yes, it is a labor.

You have to crawl off the sofa and change the channel yourself. No remote control here. You must work for it.

Otherwise, you have to watch the same channel that everyone else watches.

Do you want to be like them?


x

[Adamist]

You should travel to the 4th dimension and bring back sacred knowledge that may help save our planet. You know, the blueprints to an eternal energy machine, or how about learning how to synthesize a new psychedelic that makes LSD or MDMA look like child's play? I could use an instant orgasm machine or drug as well.. how about building a doorway to the 4th dimension? We should be working on bridging the gap!

[xexon]

To want to interfere with the world is to have no understanding of it.

Things happen for a reason. So one must address the cause rather than treat the symptoms.


x

[Bl4ck3n3D]

The symbol is quite hard to describe, I cannot even draw it.

The c with an a in the middle kinda resembles it.

I remember seeing the flower of life in it's true form that, I do believe we need to be working on geometrical shapes and patterns, they are the key.

[Adamist]

When I smoked DMT the world was revealed to me as made up of an infinite amount of living geometric symbols, shapes and patterns... Maybe it was showing me the 4th dimension?

Have you read anything by Drunvalo Melchizedech? He is the author of the popular "Flower of Life" books, and he goes into great detail about sacred geometry and the different dimensional levels. It's great reading, although I had to take alot of it with a grain of salt.

[zilla939]

i've experienced something similar on LSD and DMT and even mushrooms. just a sinking of my physical form into cosmic oneness and disconnecting completely with my ego and losing my normal view of physical reality and any concept of time/space. kurt vonnegut described being in the fourth dimension as existing in every moment at once. from this perspective you can focus on whatever you wish. but humans live in the moment... tunnel vision. is it a blessing or a curse? ;)

[zilla939]

actually i've experienced forms of it on marijuana and during meditation (sober)

[def zeppelin]

actually i've experienced forms of it on marijuana and during meditation (sober)"No, your experience isn't valid because it's just an effect of chemicals inside your brain!" - Family Guy generation.

[sunyatasamsara]

i saw the Buddhist symbol for interconnectedness everywhere when on acid. i would have thought more of it except the fact that it was neon lime green. Whats that about, i knew what it was since im Buddhist but i dont know if that was the perfect definition of a hallucination or not.

[zilla939]

i saw the word perfection flashing across my eyeballs everywhere when i was on acid. that was before i really understood what om meant.

[liquidlight]

"No, your experience isn't valid because it's just an effect of chemicals inside your brain!" - Family Guy generation
Actually this is not the case. The experience IS valid because your conciousness still has to take the journey of 'suspending disbelief' ...drugs or no drugs. This is why not everyone who takes drugs has such experiences ...only a few (compared to the ammount of people on this planet who actually take drugs).
If someone had an experience of the 4th dimension after eating 10 cream buns, would you blame it on the cream buns? I think some people probably would.
I had a death experience years ago on ecstacy and at the point of orgasm and i experienced being my 'true self'... boundless and unrestrained i steeped through the veil ... in fact i realised there was no veil ...that there was no 'other side'. Everything was one. I experienced not just the 4th dimension, but ALL dimensions (or at least alot of them). I was pure conciousness living in a multidimensional world.
But this wasn't simply all because i took a pill that night. I had been unconciously working towards that experience for years ... my whole life probably ( i know this because i practically drew a picture of it years beforehand when i was 18), but in particular i had been semi -conciously working towards it for the previous 2 years ...it was slowly coming into conciousness.
Now you may ask, "Would i have had that experience if i hadn't taken E that night?."
Well, i don't know. Probably not. All i really needed to do was die, which is quite easy really, but concious dying takes readyness, .. a readyness to let go of all those attatchments which were your percieved life. I look upon taking E that night as 'dutch courage' ... i had already done most of the work of letting go and had already realised that life wasn't what it seemed, but like a parachute jump, i needed a shove :) ... Does the fact that someone gave you a shove negate your parachute jump? No it doesn't.
Drugs can affect your mind and it's thinking and perceptions but cannot affect pure conciousness. In stepping out of my mind and out of the rigid structure of physical form, i stepped into pure conciousness where the E no longer affected anything. So the E was not the cause but the means (partially .. along with lots of inner work).
Everyones' path is different, with it's own very personal difficulties to overcome and sometimes ... occasionally in certain circumstances, drugs are necessary. It's valid. Everything is valid.

[FreakerSoup]

"No, your experience isn't valid because it's just an effect of chemicals inside your brain!" - Family Guy generation.
Let me tell ya, kids...Drugs fuck with your brain. That's why they are drugs. In most cases, their effect has been well-studied. The physiological changes they cause have been well-documented. If you fuck with your brain, of course your subjective view of reality is affected. All sorts of things can come of it, 'cause your brain is a big place and lots of things can happen, and you get to watch from inside there.

Does that completely invalidate your experience? No. But to think that 1: You know the "true" state of reality and 2: you know it because you saw a bunch of crazy things on drugs is a far cry from reasonable.

[liquidlight]

I'll say this about drugs. They're neither good or bad, just ... problematic. They can often be harmful but sometimes beneficial. There are so many variables to consider, but in the main, stay away from them if you can.

Quote:
"But to think that 1: You know the "true" state of reality and 2: you know it because you saw a bunch of crazy things on drugs is a far cry from reasonable."

And Freakersoup, i repeat, i went out of body and beyond form ...and hence, beyond the drug experience.

[FreakerSoup]

Ok. But how did you experience that? How did you sense what was happening? How do you remember it? How did you interpret the experience as it was happening?

I'm going to propose that everything that you think happened there that was out of the ordinary only seemed to happen because of the drug's affect on your brain. I think that you didn't leave your body and form, but because of the strange things going on in your brain, you felt as if you did, and became convinced that you did.

[liquidlight]

well firstly i don't want to become a willing participant to your scrutiny so i shall not answer precisely, but will say that firstly, i wasn't seeking any 'spiritual experience' ...at the time i had no knowledge that such things even existed. I had been traumatised by the breakup of a relationship 2 years earlier and had been desparately trying to make sense of it, eventually a friend suggested i try E because it had been known to help people. So i was using it in an attempt to work things out psychologically, and it did indeed seem to help. I used it 3 times over a couple of months in kind of 'self healing' sessions with myself... the last time involving the experience i have described. Any 'intellectual' knowledge of spiritual and psychological matters came afterwards from reading books and talking to people. In hindsight i see my lack of 'concious' knowledge of such things as a blessing because i was purely working from my own perception and intuition, and also in hindsight i see that even before taking any E, i had become aware of what ego was (this 'falseness' as i saw it) and my heart centre had already opened and i was feeling a tangible warmth constantly in my solar plexus and heart area, and indeed impartial love and understanding and such awareness was already happening within me. One way of putting it is that the trauma i experienced had awakened my kundalini and i was on an inward journey to find answers.
My only outward confirmation of the experience of that last night on E is from reading and talking to people. The different levels of the aura and levels of being i have since read about correspond exactly to things (light and spiritual forms) i saw within the experience, also the experience of 'internal vision' which has already been described in this thread of being able to look through and inside things, ... to look at things (in my case) at a cellular or atomic level and simply recieve information about it, the feeling that my conciousness could go whereever it wanted or needed to simply by intention ... but it wasn't like moving or traveling, more like already being there or 'bending space'. And finally the really 'holy' stuff ... the light that spoke to me, and the imagery (which i shall not go into) surrounding that particular pert of the experience.
As far as interpreting the experience ... like i already said, i had no pre existing yardstick or intellectual knowledge with which to interpret with ... it was more like just watching it as it unfolded. The more remarkable aspect for me however, was the feeling that 'this is my true state' and 'i've been here before' ... like a distant buried thing that i'd forgotten and just found again without even actively looking for it.

...analyse away! :)

[liquidlight]

I would also say that it is not helpful to openly doubt the experiences of another, ...this you can only do with yourself. In my view, if one reads something about the proposed experiences of another, one can talk about it and ask questions for ones own information but when it comes to judgement on the issue, publicly or openly, either let it go or keep it to yourself.
I only say this because nobody has actually ever doubted or judged this particular experience of mine before ... no hard feelings or anything, but i do think the whole issue of drugs being a factor (what about the orgasm?) in experiences of this sort is a VERY worthy debate. You can't 'take them with you' after all.

I'll tell you what actually happened now that i've had 12 years to learn and think on it; I let go right at the last moment.

[def zeppelin]

How do we experience the human experience, and interpret the world beyond us? The human mind does this with chemicals, electricity, and whatnot. Change the chemicals, change the experience, and change what can and cannot be seen and known - You can say that our brains CONVINCES us of the things around us to be real, just as easily as saying drugs CONVINCES you of things that aren't there. Just because everyone is undergoing the same human experience, does not make that experience more valid. You are just appealing to the majority when this is said.

Hey, listen, you can say that our brains is just an 'effect' of trillions of different effects. Why is one effect more important than another; that is too subjective to even say. It's a very REAL experience, just like our very REAL human experience, simple as that, and to mark it off as 'merely an effect' is pretty irrational; I really don't know how you can believe that when you know what science is saying about the human mind - That choice is just an illusion brought about by chaos. When you take drugs, all that you accomplish is reorganizing the chaos and thus your human experience by changing your perception, and perception is reality in many senses.

I don't even understand what people mean when they say that it's "just an effect"; it really isn't reasonable at all to say that.

And yes, those drugs really are well documented, but also factor in how little we know about our own brain and the universe itself. Many prominent neuroscientists don't think that this is just "your brain fucking up". Just read up on Albert Hoffman, and read up on what brilliant minds already think about on this matter. What you see aren't hallucinations, and to call it that is way too presumptuous. "You see things for what it really is" - Albert Hoffman. Please explain how people can be in a state of transcendence, and seeing the world without time? What people experience does not break current laws of physics, ask any scientist. So why mark off what they are experiencing as an hallucination brought on by drugs? So what if drugs helps brings this about, changing your mind would open or close certain abilities. You can say that it's just a false memory, but really... what exactly is a false memory when you consider the possibility that everything may be a 'false memory'.

The whole: "It's just an effect of the drug" argument is so worn out and tired, and it really doesn't make any sense, honestly.

And yes, drugs can't really take you to a better understanding of reality if you remain skeptical; it's just how it works. You can't reach any higher level understanding without some personal ambition to become more open minded and to realize that such things are possible, regardless of drugs or not.


"'this is my true state' and 'i've been here before'"

I have had that feeling before - It makes all knowledgeable pursuits look like a joke. I look like a joke, everything around me looks like a joke.

Btw, sorry if I came off a little harsh; I am just very passionate about these types of matters. I can't just stand by and allow people to invalidate experiences that has the possibility of answering our questions of: Why we are here and who we are; Isn't that pretty much the basis of all sciences? Instead of tossing these experiences aside, we should really look into them with an open mind. Don't be so cynical and skeptical.

Science now a days considers the most cynical explanation to be the correct explanation.

Also, you have to consider how many poo poo these experiences without even trying these drugs to see for themselves. And many that do test these drugs on themselves, go into with presuppositions as to what they should continue to think AFTERWARDS. In other words, they go into it, ignore the experience for what it was, then later say that it was just craziness, thus saving face. And that's exactly what this type of skepticism is all about, protecting your ego. Isn't one of the effects to these types of drugs, ego-loss? So it only makes sense to say that accepting these experiences for what it is takes an inner acceptance, which is exactly what most people are saying about any type of spiritual journey or whatnot. Drugs can't teach you to open up your own mind, but they certainly can help, if you allow it to. No one, or no thing, can change the way you think and see the world; only you can do that. And a friend of mine once said, "If you can't change your mind, then you probably don't have one".

[def zeppelin]

Also consider how many of these chemicals are ALREADY a part of our brains; It exists in our brains NATURALLY. The same chemicals that gets you high with weed, already exists in your brain. The chemicals to cause you to trip on acid, already exists in your brain. The same chemicals in DMT, ALREADY EXISTS IN YOUR BRAIN, naturally. The brain just regulates these chemicals and this regulation changes the experience, and one experience isn't necessarily more or less real than another; it just is.


We all have a natural ability to undergo a psychedelic experience at any moment in time. Just look into schizophrenia, and when you can try to validate what these people are seeing, without writing it off as unreal, then it's possible for you to expand your mind.

[liquidlight]

The shift in conciousness as orgasm subsided was like going into trance and i approached that orgasm with the words 'just love' on my lips, like a mantra. I was ready to 'do it' ....? Out of the speedy, highly intuitive and emotional state of the ecstacy (E) through the tremendously joyous and freeing overwhelmingly emotional orgasm and into bliss and merging with and becoming love, and then into pure totaly present and serene awareness, a 'fully concious presence of spirit'.
To be honest i don't really know exactly what i did or how i did it but it was what i'd been trying to do my whole life. The two years prior to that time were hellishly traumatic and emotional but also very healing and freeing as my ego simply buckled and fell down. I'd got to that point where there was an 'opportunity' in my life to totally renew myself. Through my unconcious desire to be with love, the time had finally come and i saw the gap and it involved letting go of everything for love. Just everything, and it felt like dying. And so for a few moments i let go of myself and the world and experienced for me ... this 'full presense of spirit' and of being 'with love'. It was 'myself' and 'home'.
... and then i came back into awareness of my body realising then that i'd been parylised fot the duration and my body ached like hell. And so life goes on.

Yeah there's 'something about' drugs and human conciousness, i've been reading recently about the human 'cannabinoid system' whereby we produce 'endo-cannabinoids' in our bodys through the breakdown of fatty acids in our tissues. These endo cannabinoids help to 'regulate and balance' literally every system in our bodies functioning, ... respiratory, circulatory, endocrine and also regulates things like neurotransmitters, dopeamine, serotonin ect, affecting our mood. I've come to see taking marijuana as a bit like a 'depot injection' ... like a large dose of cannabinoids to last us a while because they too are stored in our tissues and take 3 weeks or so to dissolve. So i find this 'inner cannabinoid', 'outer cannabinoid'(plant) thing interesting where bodily deficiencys and dependencys possibly take take place.

[tikoo]

a week or so ago i had a geometric dream - in bright colors , four dimensions . yes , it's possible to think 4d .


focus vibrations , searching for the feeling of power

[Bl4ck3n3D]

Like I said before, I actually DID things in the 4th dimension, so I KNOW it was not an hallucination, whether you believe me or not doesn't matter, I know, and that's enough for me.

[Psychotronic Nick]

If only we could set up a science specifically inclined into advancing and studying the human mind without the restrictions it places on the "supernatural".This science exists, and it is called Transpersonal Psychology. I'm a psychology major minoring in philosophy and this is what I plan to do with my education.

[Psychotronic Nick]

Also consider how many of these chemicals are ALREADY a part of our brains; It exists in our brains NATURALLY. The same chemicals that gets you high with weed, already exists in your brain. The chemicals to cause you to trip on acid, already exists in your brain. The same chemicals in DMT, ALREADY EXISTS IN YOUR BRAIN, naturally.Actually, the active chemical in marijuana, THC, does not exist naturally in the human brain. However, THC is very similar to the neurotransmitter Anandamine, and therefore can activate the anandamine receptors. Same with LSD, it does not exist in your brain, but it is extremely close to the neurotransmitter serotonin, and therefore can act upon serotonin receptors.

You're right about DMT though, that does already exist in the brain as a natural neurotransmitter.

Not to say that the chemicals that do not already exist in the brain are invalid or that they shouldn't be in the brain. Look at it from an evvolutionary standpoint. We have evolved to perceive the world around us in a way that is conducive to our physical survival. The only reasons that natural pseudoneurotransmitters like THC, LSD, Psilocybin, et al. haven't been incorporated into our natural metabolism is that they would not provide a physical edge or help animals with it produce more offspring. Therefore, they would not be incorporated into a species gene pool through natural selection. This doesn't mean that they aren't useful, only that they aren't useful for winning in the game of natural selection. Which makes you wonder about DMT. Why would we evolve a chemical in our brains which is normally only released in the moments before sure death? There's no evolutionary advantage in that. Was it incorporated into our metabolism by some other force than natural selection? Hmmm...

[liquidlight]

I wouldn't exactly call cannabis a 'performance enhancing' drug anyway.

[Bl4ck3n3D]

Do we not have thc receptors in our brain? Atleast our brain is configured to receive thc...

The way ecstasy works is by using the serotonin in your brain, using your own chemicals to get you high.

[Psychotronic Nick]

Do we not have thc receptors in our brain? Atleast our brain is configured to receive thc...Our brain has cannabinoid receptors. We have natural neurotransmitters, like anandamine, which fit into these cannaboid receptors when we feel blissful. THC is not one of them, but it is so close chemically that it can fit and activate the cannaboid receptors.

[Psychotronic Nick]

The way ecstasy works is by using the serotonin in your brain, using your own chemicals to get you high.Yes, but unfortunately, this burns out your serotonin stores and makes it harder for your brain to produce serotonin for a while afterwards.

[def zeppelin]

This all assuming that the ultimate goal is survival, and I don't see how it is; especially considering all of the religions that are out there that look to something higher. Not necessarily to help mask fears, but because it's a natural yearning that is built into our being, and I don't know how that can be denied.

Explain suicides: Fearing life more than death.

Explain suicide bombers: Dying for belief.

Explain why some choose celibacy. Yes, they lose the game of natural selection, but they may be winning at something else. And this isn't a statement that sex is evil, just showing how all choice isn't due to self-preservation; and just because you lose out on one goal, doesn't mean that goal is the reason for our existence.

Explain sacrifice for a loved one, and the knowledge that not everyone prides self-preservation as their ultimate goal. Your sacrifice may help others to survive as well, but the purpose of that sacrifice isn't always to preserve someones life, but to preserve others contentment/spirituality - to preserve the self (I recommend watching gattaca) - You may lose the game of survival of your genetic material, but why would that be the most important thing? To say that there isn't more to it than than that is pretty near-sighted, like a horse wearing a reign, can't see left or right of himself - Elephant in the room effect.


I think you described it best when you said that it's just the survival of your physical body. How can you play a video game if there is no main character that you can control? In order to experience that reality, you need to have these bodies reproducing and surviving; you need a reality that self-preserves itself, otherwise the universe as we know it wouldn't exist. But that doesn't prove that the purpose of human life is to survive and to carry out its genetic material.

Also, it's been said that DMT is merely released before death as a last ditched effort of self-preservation, but I really don't believe that - There are probably cause and effect issues - DMT may just be our link back to where we came from; like some sort of portal encoded with information that allows you to get back home - Who knows.

Btw, what I really meant is that these chemicals already exist in nature, and why would they exist if they didn't provide some use? Although, Albert Hoffman in an interview told everyone that these chemicals already existed in our brain. Unless I was hearing incorrectly, dunno.

[sandal-man]

man, defzeppelin should write a book. id definetly buy it.

[def zeppelin]

Everything is about survival, either the survival of the physical body, or the survival of self, and self is the part of you that makes you; you. Perhaps people commit suicide whenever they lose sense of the self, thus making the knowledge of self more important than the self-preservation of the body.

Choosing to either know thyself, or to build up your body through exercise. Both may help the survival of the physical self, but knowing thyself also preserves another part of you that may not be measurable -and may be more important than anything else - or truly know for what it truly is. The best analogy that I can give is the thought of a dog chasing its own tail. The tail exists just like any other part of the dog, but is it ever able to catch it, and if it can catch it, for how long? "The soul hides whenever it is searched for".

[def zeppelin]

man, defzeppelin should write a book. id definetly buy it.I dunno how to say thanks without sounding pretentious, but thanks =)

I am actually developing a couple of philosophical ideas with a close friend of mine. Going to make it into an ebook, and it's going to be available online for free to anyone that might be interested...

Anyway, back to the topic.

[tikoo]

.
the a~um (om) may work just fine to make a bonded-vibration , re: the intuitive choir of a One space intention . dim4 isn't of another Space .

we seek .
we quest .
we .
we is the sound of life to life .

then , the most real 4d sound i have heard
is
woo

(in real Space , on topic )

it seems iffy to actually quest with chemicals - tho the confirmation of a dim4 elemental shape has been positive agreement . be bright so very bright'n'woo
.
.

[Psychotronic Nick]

This all assuming that the ultimate goal is survival, and I don't see how it is; especially considering all of the religions that are out there that look to something higher. Not necessarily to help mask fears, but because it's a natural yearning that is built into our being, and I don't know how that can be denied.

Explain suicides: Fearing life more than death.

Explain suicide bombers: Dying for belief.

Explain why some choose celibacy. Yes, they lose the game of natural selection, but they may be winning at something else. And this isn't a statement that sex is evil, just showing how all choice isn't due to self-preservation; and just because you lose out on one goal, doesn't mean that goal is the reason for our existence.

Explain sacrifice for a loved one, and the knowledge that not everyone prides self-preservation as their ultimate goal. Your sacrifice may help others to survive as well, but the purpose of that sacrifice isn't always to preserve someones life, but to preserve others contentment/spirituality - to preserve the self (I recommend watching gattaca) - You may lose the game of survival of your genetic material, but why would that be the most important thing? To say that there isn't more to it than than that is pretty near-sighted, like a horse wearing a reign, can't see left or right of himself - Elephant in the room effect.


I think you described it best when you said that it's just the survival of your physical body. How can you play a video game if there is no main character that you can control? In order to experience that reality, you need to have these bodies reproducing and surviving; you need a reality that self-preserves itself, otherwise the universe as we know it wouldn't exist. But that doesn't prove that the purpose of human life is to survive and to carry out its genetic material.

Also, it's been said that DMT is merely released before death as a last ditched effort of self-preservation, but I really don't believe that - There are probably cause and effect issues - DMT may just be our link back to where we came from; like some sort of portal encoded with information that allows you to get back home - Who knows.

Btw, what I really meant is that these chemicals already exist in nature, and why would they exist if they didn't provide some use? Although, Albert Hoffman in an interview told everyone that these chemicals already existed in our brain. Unless I was hearing incorrectly, dunno.I never denied the existance or importance of spirituality. To me it is of utmost importance and I see it as one of the highest pursuits and the reason why we're here. I'm just saying that through the process of natural selection, those who reproduce more pass on their genetic material which spreads throughout the species. Life isn't all about physical survival, but physical survival is what decides who passes on their genes. Developing brains which are only focused on our physical environments while filtering out the spiritual things all around us helped our ancestors avoid being eaten by predators. Of course having psilocybin as a natural transmitter would put us in tune with a whole nother layer of rality or "open the filter of consciousness" as Aldous Huxley put it in his essay "The Doors of Perception". But it won't help you not get eaten by a saber tooth tiger. That's why it never entered the species' gene pool. However, now that we are the kings of the planet and most of us are not threatened by preditors of other species, I think the next direction our evolution is going to take us is down a spiritual path, expanding our consciousness. Who knows, maybe even psychic abilities will be next =]

And yes, many pseudotransmitters do exist in nature, like THC and Psilocybin, and I think our species could benefit as a whole by harnessing their teachings. Terence McKenna referred to them as "evolutionary catalysts" and I agree wholeheartedly. He even thinks that psilocybin could have been responsible for the early emergence of language. Though there's not really any hard evidence of that, it seems plausible. Anyways, I was just saying that they don't exist naturally in the brain, not that they aren't natural. But even LSD, which isn't natural, is a great tool and a powerful teacher.

And I agree with you that the notion that DMT is a last ditch effort at self-preservation seems whack. It obviously doesn't revive you, if anyhting, it only makes it harder to physically survive, as you lose connection with physical reality. It doesn't even come into play until you're surely on the verge of death, so my point is, since this doesn't help you survive physically, why would we have evolved it? I think you may be right that it's been there from the beginning and the point of it is to remind us where we came from and bring us back. It's called "the spirit molecule" for a reason, and I think that in the future, we could see more like it evolve into our species as we have to worry less about predators and physical survival, and turn more towards philosophical endeavors.

[zilla939]

man, defzeppelin should write a book. id definetly buy it.i'll definitely buy it once you get a better grip on subject-verb agreement ;)

Edit: nevertheless, your points are crystal clear. you obviously have delved deep into your own consciousness. I'm eager to know about your experiences with DMT. Which drugs, specifically, did you think Hoffman mentioned as being produced by the body? Because DMT is produced not only in death, but also during sleep. Allegedly.

[WhisperingWoods]

Which drugs, specifically, did you think Hoffman mentioned as being produced by the body? Because DMT is produced not only in death, but also during sleep. Allegedly.

Dmt isn't necessarily produced at death or during sleep. What I know is that it's produced by the pineal gland in the brain, and small amounts of DMT are released to induce dreams while you sleep. At the brink of human death, DMT is released then also--which may explain those otherworldly near death experiences people tend to have.

[zilla939]

what are you saying? that i should have said released instead of produced? fair 'nuff.

[FreakerSoup]

Hoo, this is going to be a long post. But isn't discussion great?

Just because everyone is undergoing the same human experience, does not make that experience more valid. You are just appealing to the majority when this is said. Yes it does, and not I am not. When people can agree on the observation of a phenomenon, it confirms it. It is less likely that 100 people will simultaneously hallucinate something that isn't real than it is for one person to do so.

When you take drugs, all that you accomplish is reorganizing the chaos and thus your human experience by changing your perception, and perception is reality in many senses.
Perception is not reality. Perception is what we use to get the best picture we can of reality. Sure, we can't perceive everything without technological assistance. But that doesn't mean that everything you see that others don't is some other part of reality that they are blind to. If you take LSD and perceive the people around you changing into sheep and lizards (credit to Uncle Duke), that doesn't mean that those people are in reality sheep and lizards. It means there is something going on, in your brain, that is messing with your perception of reality. Your perception is not some new reality, it is just wrong.

I don't even understand what people mean when they say that it's "just an effect"; it really isn't reasonable at all to say that.
If I zap a part of your brain and you can't stop flapping your arms, that is an effect. If I zap another part and you suddenly can't see, reality did not lose light, that is just an effect of your brain. If I zap a third part and you suddenly feel sensations from your foot as if they were in your hand, that is just an effect. If I zap another and you now taste a certain flavor when you hear a certain sound, it is just an effect. It's very reasonable to say that.

Why we are here and who we are; Isn't that pretty much the basis of all sciences? Instead of tossing these experiences aside, we should really look into them with an open mind. Don't be so cynical and skeptical.
Why are those questions important, and what makes you think they have an answer? Why are we here? Isn't that sort of a nonsensical question? Sure, look into these experiences, but do it in a rational manner. Saying it is real because you experienced it is not rational, at least with a hallucinogen. I think Dr. Hoffman and any other scientist would agree with that. When working with things like hallucinogenic drugs, skepticism is the best starting point to find out what is true.

Science now a days considers the most cynical explanation to be the correct explanation.
Science considers the most likely explanation to be the most correct.

And that's exactly what this type of skepticism is all about, protecting your ego.
No it isn't. It's about finding what is likely, what is real, and what is the truth. Automatically accepting everything you experience on a drug trip as truth will not accomplish that.

Also consider how many of these chemicals are ALREADY a part of our brains; It exists in our brains NATURALLY. The same chemicals that gets you high with weed, already exists in your brain. The chemicals to cause you to trip on acid, already exists in your brain. The same chemicals in DMT, ALREADY EXISTS IN YOUR BRAIN, naturally. The brain just regulates these chemicals and this regulation changes the experience, and one experience isn't necessarily more or less real than another; it just is.
Source? Even if that is the case, many things are made in our bodies that can screw us up in larger amounts. Cholesterol, testosterone, hormones in general, neurotransmitters. There are plenty of similar examples.

We all have a natural ability to undergo a psychedelic experience at any moment in time. Just look into schizophrenia, and when you can try to validate what these people are seeing, without writing it off as unreal, then it's possible for you to expand your mind.
All of us? Is that how schizophrenia works? How do you validate someone else's subjective experience? What do you mean by expand your mind? Do you mean learn more? Accept more? Know more? Believe more? You have expanded your mind, but refuse to accept that your experiences may not be accurate reflections of reality.

Not necessarily to help mask fears, but because it's a natural yearning that is built into our being, and I don't know how that can be denied. Those seem very similar to me. Man fears death, so has a natural yearning to believe that something else is out there.

Explanations for various examples: Humans are selfish beings. You will do what you think will work out best for you. If you think that is having sex with as many people as possible, you pass on a lot of DNA. If you think that is abstaining so you are spiritually pure, you don't pass on so much DNA. If you believe you will live in heaven forever with 72 virgins for blowing yourself up, you might just do that. If you think that life is crappy enough that it would be less painful to die than keep living it, you might commit suicide.

Genes aren't everything. A lot of what guides people's personalities, thoughts, and actions is environment. People want what is best for them, and that is not necessarily survival. I did see Gattaca, and I did like it. Maybe we had different interpretations.

I'm not saying that the purpose of human life is to pass on DNA. That is merely evolutionary drive. I would say that there is no point to human life. No more than there is a point to a rock's existence or to the existence of that one cloud shaped like a duck. We're here, we want to stay here.

Btw, what I really meant is that these chemicals already exist in nature, and why would they exist if they didn't provide some use?
Why would their existence be evidence of some use?

[def zeppelin]

Btw, I didn't mean what I said to be an attack on anybody. I was just making a argument for the sake of argument. I wasn't saying that you believed this or believed that. I was just arguing against the common argument that most people give (arguments that people just regurgitate to each other).

Anyway, Psychotronic Nick, I pretty much agree with everything that you have said and I really enjoyed reading what you wrote.

"Dmt isn't necessarily produced at death or during sleep. What I know is that it's produced by the pineal gland in the brain, and small amounts of DMT are released to induce dreams while you sleep. At the brink of human death, DMT is released then also--which may explain those otherworldly near death experiences people tend to have."

It definitely helps to explain something. Although, I really don't know what you mean by it being explained. What is explained exactly (that's an honest question; I'm not being snide)? Those experiences are just as real as any other experience, and you can say that it was merely a dream, but how much do we even know about dreams? Celia Greens studies about lucid dreaming shows that you can be conscious of your own dream, which is apparently a paradox. Here is a question that may be relevant: what exactly is the dream world? You can invalidate the DMT experience as merely a dream, but before you do that don't you first have to have a better understanding of what a dream actuality is?

Though, You have to wonder how it is possible for dead people to hear and see things miles away from their body. Even so much as knowing word for word what was said... but of course that is scrutinized, if it sounds silly, then it is; At least how many think of it, but sounding silly doesn't prove anything.


--

zilla939:

I am not sure about this, but was that addressed at me? Forums confuse me sometimes =/ If so, I never used DMT. The only drug I ever used was cannabis, and I am looking forward to trying LSD. I am just very interested in the DMT experience, and the experiences that any type of drug could give you, really.

I experienced pretty amazing things while on and off weed that many scientists would just write off as craziness, though.

Just recently, I have felt depersonalized... my body seems to be moving on it's own, and I am just watching it being operated... freakin' weird. I hope that I'm not becoming schizophrenic and start drawing anthropomorphic cats, soon... lol

[def zeppelin]

.It is less likely that 100 people will simultaneously hallucinate something that isn't real than it is for one person to do so.
Why assume that it isn't real? So truth depends on the likelihood of the experience being experienced? The nature of the experience may just be unpredictable and rare. This being less likely than that really doesn't make any point. What matters is the truth.


When people can agree on the observation of a phenomenon, it confirms it.
So truth is dependent on what people can and cannot agree on? Sounds like a glorified opinion.

Perception is not reality. Perception is what we use to get the best picture we can of reality.
What exactly is the best picture of reality? That's assuming that there is just one picture of it. If perception isn't reality, then you are saying that everything we observe is falsehood. Because after all, it is the human perception that studies itself and its surroundings. Every pursuit would be pointless. Because no matter how much you try to find the objective, it will be riddled with subjection. All ideas, all concepts, no matter how seemingly objective it is, is still dependent on our perception. I don't understand how anyone can deny that.

If you take LSD and perceive the people around you changing into sheep and lizards (credit to Uncle Duke), that doesn't mean that those people are in reality sheep and lizards. It means there is something going on, in your brain, that is messing with your perception of reality. Your perception is not some new reality, it is just wrong.
To invalidate that as a screw up in the brain stems from assuming that what is being seen is an hallucination, simply because you don't see that otherwise. You also assume that people really aren't fishes and lizards, simply because our views of reality are static, and anything that doesn't fit our perception is ignored - it honestly dosn't matter what we think, what matters is what's true. If people really are lizards and frogs, then that's just how it is- But you are right, it doesn't exactly prove that they are fishes and lizards; but at the same time, doesn't disprove it.

'Perception isn't some new reality' is also an assumption. So far the best argument you have is that since the majority isn't experiencing it, and since it's rare, then it is invalid.

If I zap a part of your brain and you can't stop flapping your arms, that is an effect. If I zap another part and you suddenly can't see, reality did not lose light, that is just an effect of your brain. If I zap a third part and you suddenly feel sensations from your foot as if they were in your hand, that is just an effect. If I zap another and you now taste a certain flavor when you hear a certain sound, it is just an effect. It's very reasonable to say that.
If I create another human being exactly like you, zapped him, and gave him life, then I just created an effect. The effect being another living being having the same experience as us because he is similar in biological structure, and thus going to have the same experience and perception of reality. And of course zapping different parts of the brain will cause effects. You can't just get done reading what I wrote about effects and just use that example. Yes, they are effects caused by zapping, most definitely. What I tried to explain earlier is that everything is an effect, even you thinking up your reply, thinking your thoughts to help yourself to try to dismantle my argument; is just that, an effect. If you zap out my occipital lobe, causing me to go blind, you definitely caused an effect; I can't doubt that. No, you didn't change reality for anyone but me. You caused the effect of non-vision by using a tool. We have found out that by poking and prodding different parts of our brains, we could shut on and shut off certain effects; this is exactly what drugs accomplish.

All effects are just as real as any other. Just like the effect of not seeing a picture on a wall because you blinded me. Or seeing the picture on the wall in the first place, is an effect of many things working at once to deliver whatever information in such a way.

Why are those questions important, and what makes you think they have an answer?
What makes you think that they don't? Also, thats something for you to really ask yourself. And I don't say this to dodge the question, it's just not something that I can effectively explain to you. I do suggest reading Man's Search for Ultimate Meaning, though. Frankl can explain this a lot better than I can. And answering a question like that requires a lot of context, which makes it so difficult to explain something like this to a skeptic.


Isn't that sort of a nonsensical question? Sure, look into these experiences, but do it in a rational manner. Saying it is real because you experienced it is not rational, at least with a hallucinogen. I think Dr. Hoffman and any other scientist would agree with that. When working with things like hallucinogenic drugs, skepticism is the best starting point to find out what is true.
Why would it be nonsensical? You should always have a degree of skepticism; I agree. But there are experiences that explain themselves, and I already know what you think about such a thought. But you see, you're outside looking in, and it's not something that can be explained or known unless experienced; you just have to see for yourself. No need to be skeptical of a experience if you don't even know what it was, and I don't mean that as an insult, either.


See, this is what I don't like about words like, "hallucinogen". The word already assumes that what was experienced as being unreal. For example, people call me an idealist because I honestly believe that world peace is a possibility. The word idealist already assumes that such a thing as world peace is impossible for whatever reason, and thus only exists as wishful thinking and not a plausible possibility. If people only believed that such a thing to be possible, and merely changed their minds, then it definitely would be a possibility. Same goes for hallucinogen, but not exactly the same way. The word is designed in such a way as to automatically assume that what was seen as being fake. So when others read up about these drugs, see the word 'hallucinogen' attached to the drug description, then they have already accepted this as truth - is it truly skepticism to take everything at face value?


skepticism is the best starting point to find out what is
I definitely agree, but where does skepticism end, exactly? To be truly skeptical, you have to be skeptical to your own skepticism, everything that is said by others, and this includes: Scientists, theologians, random people, mystics. How can you be a skeptic if you can't even be skeptical to the pursuit of science itself? Nothing is immune to skepticism, not even the almighty men in lab coats.

Science considers the most likely explanation to be the most correct. Yup, but what is the most likely explanation? Should that be decided by how many agree on an explanation? For example, why is it more likely that the reason why we laugh at each other, be some kind of evolutionary stepping stone than say people feeling connected with other because they sensed a feeling of sameness? See, you can 'prove' just about anything if you already have presuppositions to do so. I can probably create a good argument that we are all tiny frogs with hats on their heads (maybe not such a silly example, but ya), if I just design the experiment just right, give a very good explanation, and get just enough people with just enough influence to believe me, then I just created a newly accepted theory. But the likelihood of people believing in such a thing is pretty low, but that doesn't disprove my point. My point being, if you just get enough people to believe in the experiment and your explanation, then something false can be something true. And since most people take what scientists say at face value... I guess you get my point.

Also, ancient theologians had their own system to discovering truth as well. If you went against what was said, they you would be considered a blasphemer. Now in the modern day, blasphemer is replaced with, 'crackpot' or 'loon'. Just like all of the crackpots that once thought of the idea that we may all really be in a matrix, and that parallel universes exist. Now both ideas are respected theories within the scientific community.


Source? Even if that is the case, many things are made in our bodies that can screw us up in larger amounts. Cholesterol, testosterone, hormones in general, neurotransmitters. There are plenty of similar examples.
Sure, just like how people believe that since something is natural, then it's good for you. Arsenic is definitely natural, but it'll kill you. Now, is LSD deadly or not? The drug is surprisingly safe, especially for something that has such a potent effect. Now, the real question is: Does safety of the drug really determine whether or not it's effects as being valid or not. And by valid I mean, did what the person see really exist? You can say that it's just all in his head, but isn't everything "just in our heads?"

The source is from an interview with Hoffman. Like I said earlier, maybe I didn't understand him correctly. The interview is part of an LSD documentary named LSD, but worded out.


All of us? Is that how schizophrenia works? How do you validate someone else's subjective experience? What do you mean by expand your mind? Do you mean learn more? Accept more? Know more? Believe more? You have expanded your mind, but refuse to accept that your experiences may not be accurate reflections of reality.
'All of us?' I think so, but I honestly don't know. At least that's what Hoffman was saying, and I am pretty sure that he said that. The LSD experience is analogous to what a schizophrenic person experiences 24/7. But who's to say that what schizophrenic people are seeing aren't real? Just because we can't see or measure it in any way available, doesn't prove that it is real, and it doesn't prove that it is. Although, I am inclined to believe it because I understand the impact that perception has - Everything is real.

'Subjective experience', again, assumptions.

Do you even need to validate another's experience? How can you even validate an intimate and person experience of another person? Again, you're just outside looking in, and the only person that truly understands the experience is the one that experienced it. Sure, you can say that this and that was just an effect, but then I'll go back to my comments about effects.

To understand what I mean by expand your mind really requires a lot of insight and context, but I'll try to explain. When I was younger, I learned of quotes like, "There is nothing to fear but fear itself", but I truly didn't understand the value of this quote until not so long ago. See, quotes like these cram in a lot knowledge and context into a single sentence. Not until you give this sentence context through experience can you truly understand the message; This is what wisdom is - knowing something. Now, if you take into account my example, and you think of expanding your mind as knowing more and to understand what mystics have been trying to express for thousands of years, for example, then this is what I mean by expansion of mind. This is not to say that is the only meaning of that phrase. In other words, expansion of mind is to open your mind and to see what others have known for centuries - to bring in new understanding a wisdom into yourself.

You can say that many are refusing to accept their reality as being inaccurate. And this is where wisdom grows from, being skeptical of your own experiences. But if such an experience doesn't require an explanation, then there is no need to be skeptical of it. This also stems from meditation, and I don't mean sitting around reciting mantras. I mean sitting down and really thinking of your questions and answering them very honestly. A lot can be discovered in these sessions, if you only believe that something like that to be valid. Even debating with you right now is a form of meditation. When ideas connect in your mind in such a way, you begin to just 'know' things, and this knowing will probably be ignored by you, and I respect that; that's good. But skepticism also requires temporarily giving something the benefit of the doubt. Because after all, maybe that person knows something, and I better listen because I may miss it.

If you don't have the wisdom, then you really can't expect to connect with another persons understanding, and you risk ignoring important information for the rest of your life, simply because you thought it was a joke - I hope that doesn't make me sound pretentious, but I think that's a very important point to make.


Those seem very similar to me. Man fears death, so has a natural yearning to believe that something else is out there.
Now, I have to be honest here; this is probably the biggest pet peeves that I have. Frankl explains this type of argument very beautiful by saying that, "Man plays hidden motive games with himself". It can't just be that people have these beliefs because they truly believe in it. Just because it isn't understood, doesn't mean that it's believed in to hide some kind of hidden fear. Can't you just consider that they may know something that you don't? No, that isn't possible, right? That type of argument can go either way, really. I can say that you are an atheist because you have some hidden fears of eternal existence (and I know for a fact that many do have these fears) and what it could mean for you if God existed. Perhaps you haven't been living up to your purpose and it would mean to drastically improve on your life... but I digress on that. That kind of argument is just not a proof of anything, and it really just assumes so much.


The type of selfishness you talk about can bring a lot of good, as long as you consider others in the process. Actually, searching for contentment in your life will probably positively effect others around you. But that's another argument really, because it would get us into so much it's ridiculous. But basically, being happy with where you are in life is going to bring your more happiness and this happiness will make you a more effective member of society.

Genes aren't everything. A lot of what guides people's personalities, thoughts, and actions is environment. People want what is best for them, and that is not necessarily survival. I did see Gattaca, and I did like it. Maybe we had different interpretations.

I'm not saying that the purpose of human life is to pass on DNA. That is merely evolutionary drive. I would say that there is no point to human life. No more than there is a point to a rock's existence or to the existence of that one cloud shaped like a duck. We're here, we want to stay here.
Ever consider what guides a persons actions could be will alone? Environment, and other factors definitely are important in shaping who you are, but doesn't prove that you can't somehow transcend all of these factors (Dark City is a good movie).

Since you seen Gattaca, you have to wonder why what one of the main characters did what he did. What was he preserving exactly?

We aren't rocks nor are we cloud. We are what we have always been, and ignoring the tremendous amount of amazing human actions just seems so silly to me.

You either want to stay here or don't.


Why would their existence be evidence of some use?
You're right about that one. It doesn't necessarily require use.

[Psychotronic Nick]

When making the argument about which perceptions of reality are valid and which are not, I think it is important to remember the question: "If a tree falls in the woods and nothing is around to observe it, does it make a sound?" At first glance, just about any logical person will answer "Of course it makes a sound! What a stupid question." Think a little deeper and you will realize that it does not, as "sound" does not exist outside of our own minds. The tree will produce a vibration of course, but it is not a "sound" unless there are ears to pick up the vibration and convert it into neural impulses that produce a sound in our minds. All sensory perception is not a direct observation of the physical world around us, it is a code, a symbolic representation of the world around us. Take temperature for example. When you feel a temperature on your skin, it's not that it is objectively there. Each and every single molecule around you is vibrating at a slightly different speed. Your skin senses the vibration of the molecules around you, finds the average, and converts the vibrations it senses to a neurological code which your brain recreates as a symbol, the perception of temperature. This isn't really objectively accurate, but it would be impossible to be aware of the motion of every single invisible molecule around us, so we change it into something else to help us interpret it. Take color as another example. Does color really exist, or is it just your brain coding patterns of photons and recreating them as something useful that we can understand and use to interpret the world around us? We use different colors to represent different frequencies, but the important thing is to remember is that those colors are not the actual frequencies themselves, just representations of them that we CREATE in our minds to help us be aware of what is happening around us physically. Nothing you perceive with your senses actually exists in the way you perceive it, it's all just a symbol created in your own mind. Psychotropic drugs alter the balance of our neurotransmitters or introduce new ones altogether, and hence change the way our brains create the symbols out of electronic impulses which it uses to interpret reality. Psychotropic drugs change the way our brain creates symbols to represent the world around it. Just because it's different from the way our brain normally represents the world around it does not make it any less valid.

What if our physical senses had evolved differently? Example: What if, to evade predators, our ancestors began to live predominantly in dark caves. They would have eventually lost most of their eyesight and perception of light, and would have evolved other methods of interpreting the world around them. Bats are a perfect example of this, as they use sonar rather than their vision to "see". Do you think a bat perceives the world around him through sonar in any way close to how you see it? Of course not, it's completely different in every way. Does that make it any less valid? Say we went the same route, yet the part of our brains which interprets visual signals would have remained for some time, as it would not be lost as quickly as our use for it would be. So the entire human race would be blind, but a part of our brain would still be able to create symbols which we would perceive as light. It just wouldn't be used at all. Say one of these humans ingested a substance which caused neurons in that part of the brain to fire, causing him to see as his distant ancestors who relied on light did. He would run back to his people and tell them a crazy story about the unexplainable experience he had with an entirely new way of interpreting the world. His friends would say "you're crazy, reality isn't like that, your brain was just fucking up." Different interpretations of the same reality can be equally valid, as everything you sense around you is only a symbolic representation created in your mind, not an objective view at all. different species with different brains perceive the same reality completely differently. When we change our brains we change our perception of reality, the way our brains represent it, but it is still valid just as a bat's sonic interpretation of the world around him is.

[Bl4ck3n3D]

Haha, some nice discussions going on.

I'd say atheists have met their match.

Didn't expect this thread to reach over 2 pages let alone 8!

[FreakerSoup]

Why assume that it isn't real? So truth depends on the likelihood of the experience being experienced? The nature of the experience may just be unpredictable and rare. This being less likely than that really doesn't make any point. What matters is the truth.
I'm not assuming. It might be real. That is less likely to be the case if only one person experienced it. Truth doesn't depend on anything. But to figure out what is true, probability is a pretty good tool.

So truth is dependent on what people can and cannot agree on? Sounds like a glorified opinion.
Not at all. If 100 people in a gathering simultaneously experience a loud voice from the sky saying "I am the lord, worship me," they may interpret it differently. But it happened. Objective experience is how we know pretty much all of what we know so far. That crazy guy touting the end of the world may have the subjective experience of truth and know what's going on, but since it is subjective and he can't show it and it can't be confirmed, you can't just assume that he is right.

What exactly is the best picture of reality? That's assuming that there is just one picture of it.
No it isn't. There are many pictures of reality, depending on who's observing and what tools they have. There is only one reality. I hesitate to say there is a true picture of it, but I would say that there is only one completely true representation.

If perception isn't reality, then you are saying that everything we observe is falsehood. Because after all, it is the human perception that studies itself and its surroundings. Every pursuit would be pointless. Because no matter how much you try to find the objective, it will be riddled with subjection. All ideas, all concepts, no matter how seemingly objective it is, is still dependent on our perception. I don't understand how anyone can deny that. Everything we observe is a representation of reality. We get a picture. We do not get the full picture. We can't sense X-rays, gamma rays, infrared, gravity, magnetic fields, etc. While it is conceivable that everything is wrong and your entire experience is only in your head, it s pointless to assume that to be the case, because in that case, how would you behave? There is a lot of subjectivity around, which is why science is based on objectivity. Repeatable experimentation, statistical analysis, stuff like that.

'Perception isn't some new reality' is also an assumption. So far the best argument you have is that since the majority isn't experiencing it, and since it's rare, then it is invalid.
Some people babble to themselves. Some people can't function in society and are put in mental institutions. These people don't have a connection to another reality. They just can't live in reality.

Are you really arguing against reality? How do you function in the world? By accepting an objective reality.

All effects are just as real as any other. Just like the effect of not seeing a picture on a wall because you blinded me. Or seeing the picture on the wall in the first place, is an effect of many things working at once to deliver whatever information in such a way. What I am trying to say is that your brain is tuned to give you an accurate working picture of reality. Generally. Some people's brains don't. But the point is that you have this organ. Without it you would be dead. It gives you everything your conscious is. If you mess with it, you are quite likely to experience a lot of weird things. That is because you are messing with it. In the same way, if you put a bunch of electromagnetic devices in a room and then try and watch TV, your experience will be different. That is because the tool that you are using to receive information (CRT, Antenna, whatever) will be messed up. You aren't getting a truer picture, your are getting a less true picture. I think it safe to say that the same applies to the brain on drugs.

What makes you think that they don't?
Why are we here? That question assumes that there is a reason. What would give us a reason for being here? A higher power. Some divine power, advanced alien race, or supreme universal intelligence. That is what is assumed to be the case in answer to that question. Just because is not good enough. Because the universe happened a certain way, and life on earth evolved a certain way is not good enough. Purely by chance is not good enough. People that ask that question are looking for a more powerful sounding answer. Why must there be a reason?

I definitely agree, but where does skepticism end, exactly? To be truly skeptical, you have to be skeptical to your own skepticism, everything that is said by others, and this includes: Scientists, theologians, random people, mystics. How can you be a skeptic if you can't even be skeptical to the pursuit of science itself? Nothing is immune to skepticism, not even the almighty men in lab coats.
Sure. That's why in science, you use the null hypothesis, which states that everything to you see happens purely by chance, and there is no relation between you dependent and independent variables. That is usually what you are trying to prove. If you can show with a .95 or greater degree of certainty that the null hypothesis is false, you can accept a relation between your variables. Granted, this leaves the chance that 1 in 20 studies with a .95 degree of certainty is due to chance and wrongly interpreted. Which is why you repeat studies. If you have 3 studies on the same thing which indicate a trend with .95 certainty, there is only a 1 in 8000 chance that it is wrongly interpreted. And so on.

Yup, but what is the most likely explanation? Should that be decided by how many agree on an explanation? For example, why is it more likely that the reason why we laugh at each other, be some kind of evolutionary stepping stone than say people feeling connected with other because they sensed a feeling of sameness? See, you can 'prove' just about anything if you already have presuppositions to do so. I can probably create a good argument that we are all tiny frogs with hats on their heads (maybe not such a silly example, but ya), if I just design the experiment just right, give a very good explanation, and get just enough people with just enough influence to believe me, then I just created a newly accepted theory. But the likelihood of people believing in such a thing is pretty low, but that doesn't disprove my point. My point being, if you just get enough people to believe in the experiment and your explanation, then something false can be something true. And since most people take what scientists say at face value... I guess you get my point.
Getting people to believe you is different from demonstrating likelihood. Objective experience is what we have to reliably go by, so that gets a very large preference over subjective. That does not mean that subjective is less true, but that we can't confirm it. There are many equations to figure out likelihood of arguments. Logic goes a long way, too.

The difference between now and the blasphemer times is that the accepted truth back then was really more like what the crackpots say today. They didn't test it, they didn't question it, they just said it. Now we have reliable systems for finding out what is true and what isn't. A lot of the stuff about matrices and parallel universes, regardless of possibility, is just theory. Not like evolutionary theory or EM theory, but more like "Theoretically, this could be the case."

That's all for now, I'll post more later.

[def zeppelin]

Important things to realize:

1) Everything is subjective, even my views of subjection, which my argument ironically continues to remain correct. This isn't to say that there isn't an underlining reality and truth to it all. But A truth, not to say that THE truth will be revealed to you if you only let it, willfully.
2) All experiences are equally valid.
3) All perception is valid. Change the perception, change your experience, change what can be known.
4) The only thing that is truly real is consciousness. Everything else is merely an object, and objects only exist in our minds. But since it exists in our minds, doesn't make it false. It is very REAL for us indeed - We merely share the same perception.
5) Studying one perception by using another is a fruitless practice, because there is information loss.
6) Knowledge of this world can be very misleading.
Example: "The mirror is an ancient Buddhist symbol for clarity, completeness of perception, and purity of consciousness. A mirror reflects a thing objectively, but what we see in the mirror is not the thing itself. Because the object is not seen directly, it may be seen more accurately ~ more clearly, without judgment and with greater perspective. This can lessen the tendency to see a thing as fixed or solid and encourage better understanding. The mirror, or perception, more effectively propels the mind toward insight and compassion than mere argument or lecture. "

The important thing to realize about the Buddhist statement on ignorance, isn't a statement about a lack of scientific information you possess. Ignorance is to accept this reality as being the true, ultimate, or only reality - To become engrossed in the delusion of the idea of objectivity. Objects only exist in our minds, and the true self isn't an object.

7) Symbols merely express something higher. Forgetting what the symbol represents, and worshiping the symbol itself is very misleading, and I think this is what the bible means by, "Don't worship false idols". Meaning, don't get swept up with this reality and to just remember where you came from. For example, there are American nutjobs that would fight for the American flag, but lose sight of what that flag is supposed to represent.

8) Ego is very misleading, let it go.

9) Divinity, truth, freedom, all come from within. Again, if you willfully allow it to, by dropping ego. Just look at ancient metaphysical ideas, and you can see just how similar it all is to current scientific understanding about the universe. There are multiple venues at arriving at truth, and evidence most definitely can be personal.

10) Not everything real is measurable and testable.

Inner context, and how much of it has grown is dependent on how far you are willing to go with your spirituality. Everyone arrives at the same truth independently from one another, if only you remain honest.

In the end, this all really comes down to doing your own searching and to arrive at these understanding yourself. I am pretty sure that everything that I have said would not make any sense to you because you simply just don't have the understanding or the context (not an attack). All of what I have said could sound very fruity, flowery, and gag inducing, and probably even annoying, but that's just how it is.

People get too caught up with how something sounds, and never stop to think if it's valid or not.

[tikoo]

Symbols merely express something higher ... def zeppelin


your set of symbols is all the truth you have to work with , and you'll need a set that's not too many not too few . when symbols combine they make greater , more specific meaning . it's best if you understand truth is created and shared by all life . basic symbols are shared , and this life context is very important . a weak or vainly assumed context is death to meaning . meaning must , like life , be in motion . truth is in motion and there's an essence of magic about it . like a geometric mandala is in motion .

it's a language of truth that will open a good relation with dim4 . it can help you feel the nature of life in that expression of existence .

i'd say life in dim4 is an existence of light : light is geometrically physical .

[Bl4ck3n3D]

I'd say music has alot to do with dim4, I noticed. Music can be used as a way to get through.

[sandal-man]

just because we see something does not make it reality. a blind man at birth will go his whole life not knowing what our reality looks like. a deaf man will never know how our reality sounds. but if everyone was deaf then that would be reality. if everyone was blind that would also be reality. and if this was so and one man could hear and another could see the people that could not would not be able to grasp the concept. try explaining something to someone who has never experienced it and to them it will seem impossible or unreal. just because you havent experienced something does not mean that it doesnt exist. for all we know drugs may be the gateway to another reality and whose to say that that isnt as much of a reality as the one i see now. reality is what we percieve and if our mind percieves something different is that not also reality? there are many other things and beings in the universe that have created things that we can never percieve and that is their reality. maybe they have a plant on their planet that when smoked they see our world and others will call them crazy only because they have not also percieved that reality. but just because something is uncommon or uncommonly noticed or unnoticable does not mean that it is not reality.

[zilla939]

def, study of another perception is not fruitless, even though it must be done from a different perception. a lot can be gained from learning about what else there is, including a personal change of perception. and i don't find ego to be misleading if i don't want it to be. this is an all too common mistake made in the journey toward enlightenment. people spend ages trying to escape their egos, only to become all the more absorbed by them, no matter what sort of aesthetic quests they venture out on. the key to dealing with your ego is to embrace it and understand it, realizing it is what gives you your own unique "existence."

what you are saying is not an attack, but it is very patronizing. do you truly think that what you're saying is so cryptic? we have language for a reason, and though there are some who would never catch on to what you are expressing, there are also others who can relate. i understand the feeling, though, of not being understood. hence my fascination with linguistics.

it's important to remember that, in the realms of consciousness and the spiritual, we know very little. a closed mind is a cursed thing. being open and entertaining hundreds of notions is a beautiful thing; being closed off and set in one's opinions is ultimate failure in the quest for spiritual and self-knowledge.

[sandal-man]

maybe the 4th dimension is the absence of matter altogether and there is only light sound consciousness etc... and anything else that does not require matter. if u think im wrong let me know but it makes sense to me. i know u said you interacted in the 4dim but maybe your conscious self believed you were interacting with it, thus allowing you to realize things unable to be percieved by sight alone. i think it fits quite well to your explanation.

[sandal-man]

although sound is made of vibrations and u cant have vibrations without matter so maybe sound is percieved also and thoughts turn to music much more easily thus allowing the most beautiful music of all w/o having to write down how it sounds b/c it plays as u hear it. and maybe we can create the most beaytiful works of art for the same reason. ever have a really cool idea and try to draw it and it came out nothing like u imagined?

[sandal-man]

if my rantings are true then the 4dim must be the most beautiful place imaginable which is funny b/c it is imagined. maybe 4dim is heaven and heaven is whatever u want it to be. that would be heaven for me. not how other ppl make it but how i make it

[Bl4ck3n3D]

maybe the 4th dimension is the absence of matter altogether and there is only light sound consciousness etc... and anything else that does not require matter. if u think im wrong let me know but it makes sense to me. i know u said you interacted in the 4dim but maybe your conscious self believed you were interacting with it, thus allowing you to realize things unable to be percieved by sight alone. i think it fits quite well to your explanation.

No, like I said, the shit I did was practically unreal, but it DID happen.

[Bl4ck3n3D]

if my rantings are true then the 4dim must be the most beautiful place imaginable which is funny b/c it is imagined. maybe 4dim is heaven and heaven is whatever u want it to be. that would be heaven for me. not how other ppl make it but how i make it

It is pretty beautiful. Like I said, nothing in this world touches on the quality of what I've seen in the 4th.

[def zeppelin]

You're right Zilla.

You're definitely right about knowing something about the other perception. I don't exactly explain myself well sometimes. I just meant that there is a lot of information loss once you get back to this perception.

And I never meant for that to be a static list, just something to read and think about because it might be helpful... I really don't mean to be patronizing, either. Sorry if I offended anyone. I just get frustrated with not being understood. I once heard someone say that self esteem issues comes from the inability to be heard, and I think that there is a lot of truth in that - I should just be patient.

Also, that's not what I mean by loss of ego. I really just meant the lose of the fake bits of yourself: the persona. Buddhist monks say pretty much the same thing as do about the path of enlightenment. That searching for it leads you away from it... at least the type of pursuit that I think you mean.

I'd like to consider myself open-minded, too.

If anyone thinks that I don't write clearly enough, let me know. I really try the best that I can, but sometimes it's difficult.

[def zeppelin]

And I mean this very earnestly, thank you Zilla. That helped to clear my mind.

[sandal-man]

i just want to let u know that i understand u but in my 10th grade class the teacher would put a philosophical quote on the board and id usually b the first to go "oh ok" and everyone else would be like "huh?" and id have to end up explaining it to them until we went over it as a class and discussed its meaning. hes the guy that actually made me realize that i love philosophy and have for many years. not to get off topic but i tend to ramble. if you give me time ill eventually start talking about something that has no logical connection to the thing i was talking about before.

[zilla939]

nah def, i figured we were on the same page. it's mainly semantics :)

what i mean by "the path toward enlightenment" is realizing your oneness ... looking at something and seeing everything, hearing all sounds in one sound ... looking at your reflection and seeing a million people looking back at you ... that state of mind ... and the ability to allow this state of mind to manifest itself eternally.

i definitely believe you are open-minded.
so don't worry, we all get frustrated.

[def zeppelin]

:) ty

Definitely on the same page.

[liquidlight]

Quote:
"the key to dealing with your ego is to embrace it and understand it, realizing it is what gives you your own unique "existence."

Yes, embrace and understand and indeed, love it for the drama. It's always there. I've had a few problems in the last year with a few people and have been watching our egos at work, but just being aware of it allows me to deal with it internally and 'forgive the human condition' ... and hopefully, and carry on unburdened by these things. And always in dealing with daily problems in a more understanding and compassionate way and recognising ego and not fighting it all the time, i feel love. It's like the reward of awareness.

[tikoo]

.
well , i got to the border of dim4 today
and sure enough , someday had a sign
posted there


. Priv ut Pooperty.
. No Tree Pissing .

hmmm ... no dogs allowed ?

[zilla939]

yes yes
the sooner you embrace your ego, the sooner you realize how easy life can be, for it is when you truly love yourself that you can truly love others and give everyone, including yourself, the compassion you all deserve.

[tikoo]

yes yes
the sooner you embrace your ego, the sooner you realize how easy life can be, for it is when you truly love yourself that you can truly love others and give everyone, including yourself, the compassion you all deserve.
looking at these words in the mirror ... the thought then seems to ask questions .


deserve all you - compassion -
the yourself including everyone
give

and others love truly
can you
that yourself love truly

you when is it

for be can life
easy

how realize you sooner
the ego

your embrace
you sooner the yes yes
.
.

[liquidlight]

Thats great. It kinda sais the same thing in the mirror. ... sounds like master Yoda :)

[tikoo]

o' master yoda , bless'm yes yes .

one zilla vibe forward , one zilla vibe reversed - is two vibes .
we need to find and bind vibrations to get dim4 awareness -
we , as in the social vibe of music like a drum circle .
in a circle i'd have hope . it'd at least need one drummer who
knows pure music and will communicate the dim4 intention in
a pure musical , conversational way .

pure music is just music that really is language ,
like you could talk with birds in it or ask questions with it .

you know that a good music vibe can touch spirit vibrations
by which is felt a oneness of we
and one creation , too .
.

[liquidlight]

Musical vibrations can also cancel eachother out.

[xexon]

Only if you have narrow vision.

You can't destroy energy, but you can change it's form.

Hmmmm?


x

[def zeppelin]

lol, I like your new signature picture.

[themnax]

calling an entire fraim of reference a single dimension is sloppy thinking.

time as we experience it, being possibly the vector of such a fraim of reference, is, in our cartesian space fraim of reference, "the true 4th dimension".

there are potentially infinite 'dimensions' in the sense that everything that can be measured is in that sense a 'dimension', usually refered to as a peramiter, to avoid the obvious confusion with cartesian coordinates.

you can't experience a dimension, only measure it. you can however navigate a fraime of reference and experience many things about which you need not know anything in order to do so.

this latter has created the opportunity for the rise of beliefs of all sorts. any or all of which COULD be perfectly valid, though none of them can be KNOWN to be.

the bottem line of mumbo jumbo, is that it really isn't very honest, not as long as a belief claims to anything more tangable then a way of experiencing.

=^^=
.../\...

[def zeppelin]

Are you saying that each moment, event, and experience is a dimension of its own, and that it can only be observed thus never be fully understood for what it truly is?

[zilla939]

i think dimension is an apt term. i would say you're talking about perspective. but now we're getting into semantics, and we know where that leads - unnecessary divisiveness.

[tikoo]

.
there shall be a divisiveness , it's ok . "mumbo jumbo" may say the r3asoned man . "it is" say the experiencer with a philosophy of feeling and careful discernment . reason is certainly not disreguarded . nor is it the time for dim4 to be proved or dispproved - just time to declare passionately and sensibly a NO to catagorical disapproval . no repression .

let us eat light .
.

[liquidlight]

Shortly after my 'otherdimensional' death experience, the first ever book about spirituality i came across was Barbara Anne Brennans book 'Hands of light' in which she describes layers of the aura, chakras and all that kinda stuff in terms of 'levels of being' ... and this is how i've come to see 'dimensions' ...as levels of being. It's a well known book but for those who havn't read it, it may help in understanding dimensions and how they relate to us.
A link with some exerpts from the book:
http://freespirits.chosenones.net/showthread.php?p=58203

Mmm ... that wasn't such a great link. It took me ages to find this one ... mutch better. Just an introduction to things we don't usually see. Interestingly in an interview with her i watched she says that her ability to percieve these layers of the aura is not due to a 'sixth sense' as such but an expansion of our normal five senses.
http://www.bearcy.com/handsoflight1.html

[tikoo]

liquid light . sure it's wide open whatever is to be thought about the nature of light (even liquidly). i think i've seen dim4 , and also am supposing things of that reality are made of light . that light takes on form and has the sense of geometricly fashioned physical . there could be new technology made of this kind of matter ... this dark matter ? ya , the shapes i saw are black as black . so the light-thing is holding it's shape and not beaming into the eye in the usual way . the stuff just floats around like jellyfish . i feel i might want to eat this light .

living in the kind shine
.
.

[liquidlight]

When i think of light, i think of the sun ...obviously. I'm no physicist but i'm aware that light has mass, and i think of different wavelengths of light, ... the wavelengths that are visible to the eye and those that are not.
My 'otherdimensional' experience was kinda like 'dual vision' .... although i said i was 'out of body', i didn't mean that in a 'on the ceiling looking down at my body' type thing but rather i felt 'on top of my head' with a conciousness that was free to roam. I could still see all the physical objects in the room so i'm aware i was still looking through my two eyes ... yet i was also seeing the auras around everything and could see through or into physical objects if it was my intention to. I understand that my third eye was opened which was why i could see all that stuff. So i came to the understanding that certain wavelengths were visible to the corporeal eyes and certain wavelengths visible to the third eye, so using both types of vision, everything was there ... overlapping, and the focal point for my awareness was on top of my head.
However information about things 'non visible' also came to me and i can only best describe the way i viewed this information as having something akin to a digital 'head up display' a few inches in front of my eyes ... like an invisible monitor screen on which i could view information. Some of the more visionary/symbolic images were viewed in this way and also more literal information, for instance for what seemed a few moments i was looking at molecular structures and physical/mathematical equations on this 'screen' just as if i were reading from the page of a book ... i'm not sure what the molecular structures were actually of, but i do remember carbon and hydrogen atoms as components ... so maybe something organic?
One peculiar thing i saw which i've never read about or heard anyone mention ... imagine physical space filled with a grid/matrix deliniated by lines of light creating 'boxes' ... and in the middle of each box was a swirling, misty vortex of energy ... on it's side. The vortexes were moving clockwise if i remember correctly.
Anyway i wonder if 'visible to the eyes' wavelengths of light have mass, and 'non-visible to the eyes' wavelengths have less mass?

... like i said i'm no physicist :)


- Yeah i also wonder about 'liquidy light'? I took the name from a book i read about kundalini years ago called 'The liquid light of sex' and i just liked it ... it has a ring to it, but humans are mostly water, and i wonder if water is indeed a wierd type of light.Water seems just as fundamental to life as light does ...and that gets me thinking about the vast space between atoms... and is light mass? or does it just carry mass? Imagine the sun slowly burning up and giving off it's mass and radiation.

[Morning Bell]

While tripping on Salvia, and coming off of it, I saw "through." And I saw more. More than 4-dimensions, but I definitely saw 4-d while coming down. I have to go, but this is ironic. Or cosmic.

I think...you're crazy?

[liquidlight]

Salvia is the only mind altering drug apart from sugar, coffee, cigarettes, alcohol and pot (jeez thats a long list!) that i would consider trying. From what i've read and seen, it seems very gentle on our bodies and minds, and the people in South America who chew and smoke it seem a very happy and joyous bunch.

[radareyes]

Salvia Divinorum is probably the 3rd most powerful psychotropic drug on the planet, with Ayahuasca and DMT being the 2nd and 1st, respectively. If you're only familiarized with Marijuana, Salvia would NOT be the next logical choice in terms of intensity of experience. If you do end up pursuing a more immersive mind-alteration experience, I'd recommend experimenting with Psilocybin, LSD, or Mescaline first.

Travis

[liquidlight]

Thanks for the warning. I've seen some utube clips of people smoking probably way more than they need to and intensity of the experience seems to vary greatly and from what i've seen i think this largely depends on dosage. I'm only interested in a mild experience but even then i ain't gonna go out looking for it ... but if some turns up ever i'd like to try it perhaps.
It's been over a decade since i did anything other than marijuana. Before then i'd tried LSD a couple of times, Ecstacy a few times and having psilocybin growing on my doorstep ... i did that quite a few times but never huge doses like some, in fact the last time i took liberty caps i ate just 8 of them (freshly picked) and had a very pleasant time.
From the clips i've seen it seems to me that salvia is something a little different. However, like i said, it doesn't really matter if i do or don't.

[tikoo]

QUOTE=liquidlight ... imagine physical space filled with a grid/matrix deliniated by lines of light creating 'boxes' ... and in the middle of each box was a swirling, misty vortex of energy ... on it's side. The vortexes were moving clockwise if i remember correctly.

this is a bit similar to a description given by Gib . his post is the first one of Salvia Experience (sticky) in the salvia sub-forum of psychedelics . your view seems much more defining - less hallucinatory .

[pie man]

So for a while now i have been dreaming about a certain sign, and then yesterday when i was tripping on dxm, i saw it too, now its all i can think about. It looks like this

http://peecee.dk/upload/download/106604

[sunyatasamsara]

Ayahuasca is DMT but it doesnt effect you as strongly cause you drink it. Cannabis is much better than salvia, all it does is make you feel stranger than you ever felt and thats it. Maybe some people trip on it but ive never met them.

[radareyes]

Ayahuasca is DMT but it doesnt effect you as strongly cause you drink it. Cannabis is much better than salvia, all it does is make you feel stranger than you ever felt and thats it. Maybe some people trip on it but ive never met them.

That's an unfortunately narrow-minded outlook. Salvia has dramatically different effects on different people, and when approached with the correct intentions (i.e. not just another way to "get wasted") more effectively reveals the malleability of our realities than does Marijuana.

Travis

[liquidlight]

...and i don't find ego to be misleading if i don't want it to be. this is an all too common mistake made in the journey toward enlightenment. people spend ages trying to escape their egos, only to become all the more absorbed by them, no matter what sort of aesthetic quests they venture out on. the key to dealing with your ego is to embrace it and understand it, realizing it is what gives you your own unique "existence."
Yeah i wanna get to grips with my ego again. Nice one Zilla, you've really got a handle on this one methinks!
This is about balance... of maintaining the truth of inner and outer.

Can we break the mould of what an awakened person is 'supposed to be like'? I do feel in these accelerated days that a certain ammount of 'mould breaking' is in order.
It seems that over the years of my life the only person that ever wanted me to be any other way than i am, is myself. ....just pointless, perfection seeking, self criticism. Only one other person EVER wanted me to change and i ended up telling them to take me as i am or not at all.... and that was the one blessed moment in my life i took myself as i was. Yeah, that was something to push against.
So when you look in the mirror at your reflection, what are you gonna say to yourself?

[Bl4ck3n3D]

I believe "dimension" is the wrong term, density seems to fit much better.

There's a 4th and 5th density, which the earth is moving towards as we speak.

There are currently 5 people on earth who fluctuate between these densities on a daily basis, most are children/young adults.

[tikoo]

dimmension is appropriate in a language of geometry . this is how we see it , the dim4 , in light and geometry . how to see yourself in the mirror ? the light you see by has to be the light you give . what then do you say ... this is life light . in dim4 style it enlightens the space and this space is dim1 or just a single dimension . hey , a single dimension reality can be just as boggling as four ? by your own actual bio-light you may see dim4 . we call it spiritual ... um... to create light ...and is a sort of peaceful open free giving . if you do it , expect others to notice and maybe even stare happily .


yes , i feel we are approaching a new understanding of space and , too , perhaps it is of some long cycle in the nature of space and matter . if such a cycle is several million years long , we as human would not remember it happening . then too , some say it is an angel right now intersecting with earth life that brings us this understanding . anyway to me it seems it's going to touch all of life . look out .

[liquidlight]

...the light you see by has to be the light you give
Oh yes! ... and indeed the love you feel is the love you give.


A spritual councellor i respect alot, said to me (about the spiritualisation of matter) " The spaces between the atoms is expanding to hold more light."

[themnax]

Are you saying that each moment, event, and experience is a dimension of its own, and that it can only be observed thus never be fully understood for what it truly is?all that may in some aligorical sense be true, but i was speaking entirely litteraly. (i'm only guessing this question might have been directed at my post as it appeared as the very next post after/above it.)

=^^=
.../\...

[themnax]

Why do 'enlightened' people always speak in rhyme and riddle?in the hope of some part of their meaning surviving linguistic drift that prose is heir to.

=^^=
.../\...

[tikoo]

" The spaces between the atoms is expanding to hold more light."my why i do get so muddled in the puddle of metaphysical metaphor . i'd rather just keep to sensual perception . ok , maybe just sometimes i write in pseudo-mystic , but it's mostly just poetic and so is grounded in percieving something probably ordinary yet wonderously new to me .

yaya , the perception from the first time i got a massage was Light - a little starlight within every cell of me . i was sorta reveling in just that when i happened to notice the massager lady was all done working and had just sprawled out in a nearby chair , collapsed inward , all worn out and sorta distressed and breathing hard like from a great effort . jeesh . it's not like i felt bad to begin with and i didn't feel any better for all that she did . i just remember the Light , and still think of it at times .

love is good , love is light
hold more light , give more
.
.

[liquidlight]

Gopi Krishna is an interesting guy, after years of depression and inwardness, he came to literally be living in a world shrouded in light. He could literally see the energy moving aroud his body meridians.

The guy who said to me that "The spaces between the atoms is expanding to hold more light." also said that spirit sees us by our light. ... as if spirit doesn't see our physical bodies at all. I can understand that. We are lucky to have the opportunity to see both.

I like Barbara Anne Brennans' description of our 'core star' ... this is the deepest level she can go and it's our basic 'form' ... the light,... the spark of the divine within us ...and within every cell of our bodies.
- The light i met during my 'otherdimensional' experience baffles me, i really should have remembered to ask it who it was! Was it god? An angel? Lucifer? Heck i don't know... it seemed separate from me, above and n front of me, but i sensed myself 'in it'. It could be perhaps the 'core star' of a spirit guide?

[tikoo]

to ask who is that light ? possibly it's not an appropriate question anyway as the question is rather a social one . even if there was some interaction with a concious light , the reply would be ' i am this what ' . last fall i fancied talking with a galactic travelling light on my psy phone . it answered my questions until i couldn't think of any more , which according to what little i could understand of the answers was plenty . i had broadcast in SETI fashion to any alien , and i got a what of light . hmm . says it's coming here , and that our most stupid human problem is boundaries . so i then ask why it is coming here . is it because we are being so stupid ? in translating it's reply - seems to me it just mucks about as a space hobo and to hell with private property and fences ...

or as the galactic butterfly of mayan legend . that this , our earth of life , is just another beautiful tree in which to sit for a moment .

[sandal-man]

or as the galactic butterfly of mayan legend . that this , our earth of life , is just another beautiful tree in which to sit for a moment .

that's beautiful, you write that?

[tikoo]

yaya . whenever i do a walkabout about i like to get off the road at night and sleep under a beautiful tree . tis the sweetness of a hobo life . the space butterfly and i seem to have this kind of understanding .

[tikoo]

had an odd dream about dim4 last night . just a couple abstract references to it . in the first , i dreamed i was trying to remember an earlier dream and in that dream i had been able to intiate the dim4 experience for everybody . a vague somebody was encouraging me in this and i could but half-remember the old dream . the message was it can be done and best to do it only for a little while at a time . then i was handed a book about it . i read that (in thinking geometrically) the lines for height , width and depth can all be measured ... the fourth however cannot be .

this is my entry in the project diary .

[Passionate1]

well I live in the now and there are only 3d for me don't want 4d you may keep it now if you speak of a higher thought level than hey I have lived there for years I mean years.

[Bl4ck3n3D]

well I live in the now and there are only 3d for me don't want 4d you may keep it now if you speak of a higher thought level than hey I have lived there for years I mean years.

Those who resist change when the merger of earth into the 4th and 5th density, will be left behind.

[zilla939]

buncha fuckin' prophets in here, eh?

[Passionate1]

Those who resist change when the merger of earth into the 4th and 5th density, will be left behind.
Look right just because some people live in a world outside mines it's cool
but don't think for a second that I don't have a high level of imagination when it comes to mental consciousness I'm there but when you start calling it be silly names than yes you may keep the BS cause I live in Now now 4D sorry


YOU CAN ONLY BE BAKED HALF THE DAY NOT YOUR WHOLE LIFE:)

[zilla939]

Those who resist change when the merger of earth into the 4th and 5th density, will be left behind.actually i think it's "those who use commas liberally will be left behind"

[tikoo]

those who don't flow will freak-out . it'll be a new way of thinking time and space , and it will touch you . maybe it already is doing that . why be writing shit on this string ? go get naked at the creek and you might feel better - a space thing to do . and it's a goodtime . that's what a prophet says . a prophet cares about every little thing .

[zilla939]

hmm. silly language. i call it "higher consciousness," not dim5, frankly.
if that's what we're talking about....
ugh...

[TheLizardKingMike]

We is living in the past.

[TheLizardKingMike]

We're all prophets.

[zilla939]

We're all prophets.yes sir
and we're all judases, too.

[TheLizardKingMike]

Damn straight. I'm from the future.

[tikoo]

hmm. silly language. i call it "higher consciousness," not dim5, frankly.
if that's what we're talking about....
ugh...mmm ... i've only seen dim4 and just occasionally . i remember those times as being very calm and quiet and in a dim light . very memorable though . does it mean i am of higher-conciousness ?

i wouldn't think so .

to tell you about dim4 is a very simple prophet thing to do ....just as , well , growing up in a little town and then being sent off to college - then going home to share what you learned is also a simple prophet thing to do . some people don't go home though . some people try relating to the old home town but have been too changed by the learning experience . for some , the message will be rejected . (maybe it'd rejected because of abnormal language) . prophets got all kinds of perils to deal with . it's alot easier to give up trying to relate and just go off and bum about the world playing weird banjo music .

[zilla939]

hehe damn right tikoo. but i also believe the language used is very important, and things must be explained differently to relate to different people. take, for instance, what christianity has become because of the way it has been interpreted. though the bright ones can pick up on the true underlying message, many souls are caught up in things that are, ultimately, unimportant, oftentimes the religion does not adapt to the people. is there a way, through language, to help even the dimwitted achieve a simpler state of higher consciousness? i think so....
perhaps i don't understand exactly what you mean by dimension 4, but from what i gather, it is the same thing achieved by yoga/meditation... a state of release from the ordinary confines of reality and existing while not existing, seeing the world around you but not seeing it... feeling time as a whole and existing in every moment yet proceeding through time as though through a one-way tunnel... realizing the paradox of one's separation from and unity with everything... if this isn't what you're talking about then by all means try to tell me what i'm missing....

[radareyes]

hehe damn right tikoo. but i also believe the language used is very important, and things must be explained differently to relate to different people. take, for instance, what christianity has become because of the way it has been interpreted. though the bright ones can pick up on the true underlying message, many souls are caught up in things that are, ultimately, unimportant, oftentimes the religion does not adapt to the people. is there a way, through language, to help even the dimwitted achieve a simpler state of higher consciousness? i think so....
perhaps i don't understand exactly what you mean by dimension 4, but from what i gather, it is the same thing achieved by yoga/meditation... a state of release from the ordinary confines of reality and existing while not existing, seeing the world around you but not seeing it... feeling time as a whole and existing in every moment yet proceeding through time as though through a one-way tunnel... realizing the paradox of one's separation from and unity with everything... if this isn't what you're talking about then by all means try to tell me what i'm missing....

What you're talking about not only encompasses the properties of the 4th dimension that Tikoo and the others are referring to, it acts as the source for those properties, as well as for all other dimensional existences. In other words, you've bypassed the middle-man. :)

Travis

[zilla939]

ahhh now THAT makes sense... well damn, i need to hone in on some of this cool shit yall are talking about, then... eh?

[TheLizardKingMike]

Read The Doors of Perception, my lady.

[liquidlight]

"You can't be a prophet in your own town."

- Who said that anyway?

[TheLizardKingMike]

That's a good one, I became a prophet when I changed my group of friends.

[zilla939]

Read The Doors of Perception, my lady.i have :)
and heaven and hell, of course.

[tikoo]

i can or cannot know all of existence ? i don't know . so i make this a primary morality : deny no part of existence . it's a moral relation to nature . denial goes deep in this industrializing mass society . parts of our own nature are sacrificed , and awareness retreats to the submind . parents do it to their children it's so bad . they don't know why , yet surely even they have a primary morality to live by - like democratic voting or patriotic consumerism . these people will eat their own children . it's how weird it can get when any part of existence is denied .

dim4 may well be taboo . i'd suspect the old , old ancestors did not have such a boundary as we seem to . this assumption has already been proposed several times in the discussion : that we are dealing with a cultural repression , an inherited denial of something natural .

so i've been wondering about that scenerio . why.... ? could it be that dim4 is the medium of shared conciousness ... repress it and you can defend separation . it's denial allowing for national borders . allowing genocide .

[radareyes]

i can or cannot know all of existence ? i don't know . so i make this a primary morality : deny no part of existence . it's a moral relation to nature . denial goes deep in this industrializing mass society . parts of our own nature are sacrificed , and awareness retreats to the submind . parents do it to their children it's so bad . they don't know why , yet surely even they have a primary morality to live by - like democratic voting or patriotic consumerism . these people will eat their own children . it's how weird it can get when any part of existence is denied .

dim4 may well be taboo . i'd suspect the old , old ancestors did not have such a boundary as we seem to . this assumption has already been proposed several times in the discussion : that we are dealing with a cultural repression , an inherited denial of something natural .

so i've been wondering about that scenerio . why.... ? could it be that dim4 is the medium of shared conciousness ... repress it and you can defend separation . it's denial allowing for national borders . allowing genocide .

Why introduce morality into the scenario? Morality is ironically one of the factors that produces the impulse to repress the medium of shared consciousness, as you put it. If you're making it a moral priority to deny no part of existence, then you're denying the part of your existence that wants to deny parts of existence. :)

Morality is a structural framework that is adhered to by those who don't allow thought and behavior to arise from their natural state of being. If it takes precedence over alignment with this natural state, it becomes like a dam that is gradually building greater and greater amounts of water pressure behind it -- it cannot hold back the tide of ego-identification forever, and when it does inevitably break, it unleashes a torrent of corruption and depravity. We can see this manifest in many forms in today's society, but the classic example is the hypocrisy and corruption of religious fundamentalism.

Liberated beings have no need to adhere to moral or ethical codes. Righteous actions are an inherent aspect of their nature.

Travis

[tikoo]

Righteous actions are an inherent aspect of their nature.denial is the action i complain of . to not do that is more like naturally doing nothing when nothing should be done .. Tao-ist ?

[radareyes]

denial is the action i complain of . to not do that is more like naturally doing nothing when nothing should be done .. Tao-ist ?

But morality is a form of denial. It denies the natural expression of the impure aspects of one's being, and in the process reinforces their existence. This phenomenon is analagous to a classic mental puzzle: How can one not think about a purple elephant? The second one makes the attempt, the purple elephant inevitably appears in one's imagination.

That which we resist, we create -- and thus the fatal flaw of the moralistic approach.

Travis

[tikoo]

have you been raised in a culture that represses the natural self ... is anyone really content with this less-than-whole beingness ? to be whole some sort of action is required - actually , you could call it revolution . yes , the first denial must be radically denied . it can be soft though , as a morality of natural self that deems wholeness to be good and necessary . this kind of morality imposes nothing and will disreguard the repressive boundaries that have been given . it's like going barefoot in america .

[radareyes]

have you been raised in a culture that represses the natural self ... is anyone really content with this less-than-whole beingness ?

On the deeper levels of their being, no. But 99% of humanity aren't aware of these levels, and so we must address their experiences on the superficial levels that they operate on. Levels that, at least in the short-term, thrive on separatism and repression.


to be whole some sort of action is required


On the contrary -- wholeness requires the relinquishment of all action, and all impulses toward action. It is the fragmented aspects of our being that are compelled towards action. Ever seeking and never finding, perceiving only the distorted projections of the mind -- this is the nature of action that arises from a sense of separation. Untainted action can only be sourced from a state of absolute stillness.


- actually , you could call it revolution . yes , the first denial must be radically denied . it can be soft though , as a morality of natural self that deems wholeness to be good and necessary . this kind of morality imposes nothing and will disreguard the repressive boundaries that have been given . it's like going barefoot in america .


Perhaps the apparent disagreement is based on semantics then. The word morality has developed a connotation quite antithetical to your application of it. It certainly isn't evocative of behavior representative of naturalness or wholeness. Therefore I prefer to avoid the word, and instead focus on the fact that none of the qualities that you value need to be cultivated -- only realized as a natural expression of our true natures.

Travis

[tikoo]

Untainted action can only be sourced from a state of absolute stillness.
Travisnice , travis . the untainted action is trustworthy , exactly what needs to be done , and is the continuity of sensible relationships - as in creating a piece of music honestly moment to moment and that could never be repeated just so in any other moment to moment . somebody once cddly commented on me to someone who evidently being critical . i heard him say "he don't have to work . he's a musician ".
funny . anyway , today i'm making drums .

as for a state of absolute stillness ? it seems to happen sometimes , that i am quiet and just watching the world like a bird on it's branch . when i see dim4 there's the sense of that .

[liquidlight]

On the contrary -- wholeness requires the relinquishment of all action, and all impulses toward action
Great! I'll stay in bed then :)

[radareyes]

Great! I'll stay in bed then :)

Sounds good -- just make sure not to move, sleep, dream, or think. ;)

Travis

[tikoo]

go get what you want ... is contrary to nature as a philosophy . it's common enough and relational to the antiquity of taoism it's been around for ages . hippies like the tao ideas , looking like we is lazy but really there's nothing to do anyway - or looking like what we do is pointless but really just how do you create peace since there's no particular thing to do about it - so freely do anything heartfully peacefully . go get what you want ... this could get you war . it's desirous , manipulative action .

so the idea of utter no-action ? seems it has a context to that .

and stillness does it's own thing too . to let it be .

from all of that , with enough going for it , no-action somehow got
stated as a principle ? a deist might say ' god will find us a way ' .

mmm ... had another unusual dream last night . geometric again . in this one an energy circle was created .

[DeadbutDreaming]

so what is it called when i stare at something and see things moving and stuff. or when i close my eyes before bed when it is silent (quiet) and see things taking form. usually things/people that i cant quite make out fully, but they always seem to be screaming i can make out a mouth and they look angry. same goes for when i stare at something. is this what my mind wants to see? does this make sense at all? i have trouble explaining things. and i have no idea with what most of these threads are saying, as i am trying to understand and want to understand. maybe i just need to read more. :(

[tikoo]

we're trying to understand a part of existence that we only get glimpses of . seems it's going to take awhile . no one yet has been able to explain much . so anything related to dim4 is valuable . 'seeing' is certainly important . what you describe as 'seeing faces' , DbD , is sometimes discussed in the Psychic forum . that kind of vision i'd say is not of a literal reality - more like a dream - a metaphoric image that's got some meaning .

now as to the 'things moving and stuff' you are seeing with eyes wide open .... i'd believe our most trustworthy , relatable experiences of will be with eyes wide and open . i am interested in your observations .

[SeedleSs420]

[QUOTE=Bl4ck3n3D]It is quite amazing really. I only wish the average person would be able to understand it. It pains me knowing that there's a whoole lot more than what meets the eye, but most of the earth's population either refutes the idea or doesn't even care.
QUOTE]


EVERYTHING is more than meets the eye

[Nikalaus]

so how do we get the 4-D perspective thingy working i know it exists... i'm not compltly dumb... i'd just like to experience it as well ... :O

is it true the 5th Dimension is pure geometry??

[tikoo]

to encourage the possibility a personal experience i think it'd very useful to just muck about defing some conventional boundaries - do some harmless trespassing .

[Bl4ck3n3D]

The 5th density is pure light from where we are at now.

[XBloodyNailPolishX]

I think its important to explore and make every effort to see those other worlds. That's why I meditate, smoke cannabis, and I want to try shrooms and lsd. And I constantly am reading and thinking, exersizing my mind.

[SelfControl]

It is quite amazing really. I only wish the average person would be able to understand it. It pains me knowing that there's a whoole lot more than what meets the eye, but most of the earth's population either refutes the idea or doesn't even care.

Think of all the advancements we'd have, it's mind boggling. Makes me excited knowing that one day this will be the norm on earth.

It's all in the ability to perceive, the human mind, not some distant planet or galaxy, it's right in front of us!

Thinking about physics > physics, I suppose.

Ever see the sequel to that movie Cube? It's garbage.

[XBloodyNailPolishX]

"What the Bleep Do We Know?" while being a bit fluffy and all, is a very good window into the possibilities of our universe, or this world... ultimately no may know for sure and we can only speculate based on the personal evidence we each find in the world and ultimately within ourselves, what the true meaning of life is. Why we're here. Why this exists. Why EVERYTHING.

[tikoo]

i am life , knowing the meaning of life .